This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. I'm your host, Alan Seales. And with me here is Jillian Hochman. That's right, gotta keep the settings consistent for editing. Today we have a wonderful episode with photographer Michael Kushner. This is our first photographer on the podcast. But he does so many things. He's a photographer. He's an actor. He's a producer. He's a get stuff done guy. He does. He gets a lot of stuff done. I personally like his Dressing Room Project photos. He goes behind the scenes, takes all these photos of people doing them before shows and getting ready. He was actually there for hashtag Black Glinda. He photographed for Wicked.

Britney Johnson made her understudy debut as Glinda and he photographed the whole thing. It was a big deal. Yeah, it was all over the socials. I had a lot of fun following it through those means. But I mean, in general, I'm really impressed with him as another example of how you can still be heavily involved with theater, heavily involved with Broadway specifically, but not actually be on stage per se. He just did everything he could and now this is one particular thing that he's known for, but he still does so much. He has carved out his own niche and he's a part of the community and really important and he's someone who everybody knows and is just a great dude.

[2:47] Jillian Hochman: Yeah. He invested in Be More Chill. Did you know that?

[2:50] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah, that was cool to talk about. He invested in Be More Chill. Little show. Never heard of it.

[2:56] Jillian Hochman: Never heard of it. He shoots these major stars, these top Broadway names out of his two-bedroom apartment in Harlem, which is incredible. Or is it Washington Heights in the 150s? I don't know.

[3:06] Alan Seales: I think it was Harlem.

[3:08] Jillian Hochman: It's Harlem. Yeah, that's where we did the interview. We sat on the floor of his living room and his dog Sandwich was jumping in and out of everyone's lap and giving me lots of doggie kisses and it was amazing. But I think the two of you are probably separated at birth, Simon's twins.

[3:20] Alan Seales: We are the same person. He has the same answer that I do to our final question. So, listen to the end to hear the answer to our closing standard question.

[3:30] Jillian Hochman: You do have a lot of opinions and thoughts on the industry that are pretty near identical.

[3:34] Alan Seales: Best friends forever. Everybody, please enjoy this episode with Michael Kushner.

[3:42] Michael Kushner: Actor, producer, makeup artist and photographer. His work has been featured in The New York Times, Vogue and the Tony Awards and in publications in print and online nationally and across the pond. That means London. He's the creator of the Dressing Room Project and is one of the founding members of Musical Theatre Factory, currently in residency with Playwrights Horizons.

[4:01] Alan Seales: Michael Kushner and your dog Sandwich.

[4:03] Michael Kushner: Hey!

[4:04] Alan Seales: Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. I hear Sandwich in the background there.

[4:08] Michael Kushner: Yeah, basically, it's in any contract I do, whatever I do, he does.

[4:12] Alan Seales: Are you serious?

[4:13] Michael Kushner: Oh, no, I'm kidding. But I mean, it basically it is how, anyway, it's like, whatever, you know, whatever I do, he does. I've entertained some A-list celebrities before and their publicist is always like, is it okay if the dog comes?

[4:25] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[4:26] Michael Kushner: I'm like, no, it's fine. It's fine. He's not a therapy dog. He's not registered or anything, but he has literally changed my life and he's my best friend. So he's my entourage. No, I mean, he works with me anyway, because I work from my studio's my home.

[4:40] Alan Seales: Which we are currently sitting on the floor.

[4:42] Michael Kushner: Yes.

[4:43] Alan Seales: In your living room right now. I love this. This is so cozy here.

[4:46] Michael Kushner: Thank you. My boyfriend and I took the month of June out when we moved in to make it look exactly how we wanted. So thank you for saying that. But, you know, my studio is in the apartment and Sandwich is basically my assistant. He's extremely intuitive. And what he actually does for really nervous clients is he sits on their feet until they relax.

[5:05] Alan Seales: Aww.

[5:06] Michael Kushner: I know. So it's not like he's just there to look cute. He actually helps the shoot a lot, which is kind of amazing.

[5:12] Alan Seales: Have you had anybody that has benefited from this recently?

[5:15] Michael Kushner: Oh, 100 percent.

[5:16] Alan Seales: Really?

[5:17] Michael Kushner: Yeah. And it really calms him down. He acts like a therapy dog. And he's, yeah, just like what I said, he's intuitive. And what it does, it just kind of calms the situation down because people can be really intimidated by a photo shoot. And I kind of bank on it not being intimidating at all. It's a really earthy experience the way I photograph.

[5:36] Alan Seales: So Sandwich kind of adds that calm to the...

[5:39] Michael Kushner: I guess I've done a couple of photo shoots, and yeah, I guess it's a little bit intimidating in the big studio. But I imagine, like, you're not an intimidating person. I just met you, you know, pretty recently here, you know, 20 minutes ago.

[5:50] Michael Kushner: Yeah.

[5:51] Alan Seales: And it's friendly. It's your apartment. Like I said, this is a very cozy living room. And then Sandwich came up and licked all over me. And that was wonderful. And I can't imagine anyone being intimidated in this space.

[6:03] Michael Kushner: Yeah, I think it's just the moment before, right? Because you can get all the information in the world like a very in-depth packet and describing the experience. But it's not until you actually step foot in the space where you can just go, oh, I get it. You know what I mean? So I really try to be as open and as easy as possible. You know, I talk about... You're gonna be like, okay. I talk about me and my things going on in my life, just so it's like we're on the same level. You know what I mean? I try to even make you feel like your stuff is more together than me. So that way, you have a little bit more of a confidence boost. And then we talk about the business and we talk about what you can do versus what you can't do in the business.

So that way, we're only focused on the things that are attainable, attainable goals and things that we can do in the next three years that these headshots, these photos, these publicity photos will only help aid as opposed to hinder you.

[7:06] Alan Seales: That's really interesting. That's kind of like what a brand, like a marketing team would do for somebody. And they say, where do you want to go? It feels like to me, you would ask, and correct me if I'm wrong, what do you want to use these headshots for? What do you want the feel to be like? What do you want people to feel when they look at the pictures? Is this right?

[7:24] Michael Kushner: Oh, yeah. I mean, my favorite compliment that I get usually from all my clients is they just go, I feel like I'm looking at me. And that's my favorite thing. Because, well, I shouldn't be looking at anyone else. You know what I mean? I mean, Alice Ripley said that. She created, not only is she one of the most amazing people I've ever met or worked with, but she created one of the more iconic roles in the musical theater canon. And she's in my home with my puppy telling me that I'm capturing the true essence of her. It's kind of really cool. You know what I mean? Sometimes I have no idea what I'm doing. But I think working from that place of like, well, let's see what happens, you know, is calming to a lot of people.

[8:06] Alan Seales: Well, let's get into how you got to where you are. And normally on this podcast, we start at the very beginning.

[8:12] Michael Kushner: It's a very good place to start.

[8:14] Alan Seales: And I'm taking this from your website. You're originally a Long Island Jew raised in Florida.

[8:19] Michael Kushner: Yeah. I used to actually, I used to talk with a New York accent, with a Long Island accent.

[8:24] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[8:25] Michael Kushner: Yeah, because I wasn't talking until I was three. And my whole family speaks with a, you know, Long Island Jewish accent. And it got me a lot of attention. So I kept it up.

[8:36] Michael Kushner: And I like kind of exaggerated it a little bit. There is in rehearsals, I did shows at this school called the Carl Springs Institute for the Performing Arts, and learned how to perform there. And after school, kids would show up with dinner, you know, because it was after school. And one kid had McDonald's all the time. And I loved the fries that were on the softer side, because they were usually more soggy and saltier. And I would always ask Zach for that, for those fries. And he would say, how do you ask for it? And I said, can I have the soft ones? And he would always make me say that before it. And yeah, I mean, it only comes out now when I'm angry, passionate, or drunk. Because my college made me get rid of it.

[9:38] Alan Seales: Oh, you're right. And you went to Ithaca College, right?

[9:41] Michael Kushner: Yeah.

[9:42] Alan Seales: So before you got to Ithaca, you went from Long Island to Florida. What took you to Florida?

[9:48] Michael Kushner: My grandparents were snowbirds. And my dad wanted to go closer to his family. And my mom obliged, and we went down. And that was it. But we would go to New York like every summer. So I kind of was splitting time a little bit. You know what I mean? But that's really the only reason for Florida.

[10:10] Alan Seales: Oh, that's interesting. And so you came to New York, as you came back, because you still had family here?

[10:15] Michael Kushner: Yeah, my aunt's on 51st and 9th, my grandma's in Queens.

[10:19] Alan Seales: Oh, nice.

[10:20] Michael Kushner: Yeah, it's good.

[10:21] Alan Seales: And so then, where did the affinity for Broadway and musical theater come in?

[10:25] Michael Kushner: My grandma, on my dad's side in Florida, was a community theater actress. Was it the JCC in Long Island? I don't even know. But I guess just the synagogue, but she did. Oh, my God. They did shows illegally and renamed the musicals. So I think they did Funny Girl, and it was forever Fanny. They did Fiddler on the Roof, and it was called, I think it was called Matchmaker or something. They just said, all right, no one's gonna know. We'll just sneak this in.

[11:04] Michael Kushner: And one day we were watching Mary Poppins, my favorite movie, my tattoo on my left arm. And my grandma taught me stage right from stage left. And she then told me about the time she was Mae Peterson in Bye Bye Birdie. And the mink coat weighed her down so much that the end of her number, she couldn't get up. And the audience was laughing hysterically. And that was when I was like, I want that.

[11:30] Alan Seales: Were they laughing with her or at her?

[11:32] Michael Kushner: They were laughing with her.

[11:33] Alan Seales: Okay.

[11:34] Michael Kushner: Because she was then I made it a shtick. It was the best feeling in the world. I improvise. It was just like, I want it. Whatever that is, give me a mink coat. You know what I mean?

[11:47] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[11:48] Michael Kushner: How old were you then?

[11:49] Alan Seales: Oh, I must have been five or six.

[11:53] Michael Kushner: Oh, wow. So really young.

[11:55] Michael Kushner: Yeah. The thing about my family is they've always treated me like adults. They never babied me. You know what I mean?

[12:01] Alan Seales: I thought you were gonna say they never bathed you.

[12:03] Michael Kushner: They never bathed me. I never got a haircut. I never wore shoes. It was a tough time. I grew up in the depression, apparently.

[12:14] Michael Kushner: But they never babied me. So I was watching Mel Brooks movies by the time I was 11. And they were explaining to me the jokes. So I developed this affinity for kind of what I wanted to do at a very early age. And I quickly realized that I didn't want to do just one thing, which explains a lot about me today. You know what I mean? But yeah, I owe my family a lot for always treating me like a human, not like a kid or a baby.

[12:55] Michael Kushner: No, I would sit. There's something called the Jewish goodbye, right? The Jewish goodbye is when it's 10:30 on a school night and it's time to go home. So you've already had the coffee. You've already had the marble cake, all that stuff. And you say, okay, bye. I'll see you tomorrow. I'll see you next week for dinner, whatever it is. Then you forget something. You forget to talk about something. So you talk in the doorway for another 30 minutes. But that was part of my life growing up, was I would be sitting, having coffee with my mom and my grandma, and they would be kibitzing. And then I would do it in the doorway. And that's why I love...

[13:46] Michael Kushner: Just hear someone in the hallway. And yeah, so that's, I'm rambling about my family, but I'm very passionate about my family. They're a huge reason why I do what I do and who I am.

[14:02] Alan Seales: So what you do, you got your BFA in Musical Theatre from Ithaca College. At that point, did you see yourself just performing?

[14:09] Michael Kushner: Yeah. So at times, okay, you know, it's, I'm not going to lie and be like, I'm, I had that one trick mind of like, oh, I'm going to just like go and do, I booked two shows right after college that I had to choose between one of them. And I was like, fierce, I'm going to be a star. If that was how graduating was going to be like, I was like, oh, I'm going to nail it. And then I lined up another show after that. I wound up having, I wound up having three shows directly after graduating, and I had to choose between two of them at the same time. So I was like, I'm going to be a star. This is amazing. I got my equity card. And then I graduated and did those shows, one being On the Town at Barrington Stage, which was the pre-Broadway tryout, and did the next show, and then did the next show in Miami.

And moved to the city, and nothing bit, literally for years. And I had to quickly, like, figure out what that was. But when I was at school, I had always kind of done a million things at once. In high school, I learned how to produce certain projects, film my own projects, write my own stuff. That was even a final. We had to write our own one-man shows for our sophomore year final. So I was trained how to do all this stuff. And I realized then that I didn't have to choose in that moment. I never have to choose.

[15:39] Alan Seales: What did you do to support yourself then in those years off between shows?

[15:44] Michael Kushner: Well, so what happened was, when I moved to the city, I got a survival job. I was working at Saban, which is an Israeli skincare store, washing people's hands. And what I was doing was, I was going to EPAs and ECCs in the morning. And then I would go home and practice photography, and then go to my shift, and come home and write or practice more. And then, next thing you know, within a few months of moving to the city, I had my first paying client for photography.

[16:26] Alan Seales: You shot in the studio in your place then?

[16:30] Michael Kushner: Oh my god. I was living on 151st and Broadway, and I had a nice spacious room. And I was able to have a bed and a desk area. I even made this artist corner with an easel and a drop cloth, like a little yoga space. And I had a photography space. And I took a jersey knit blue sheet, and I stapled it to the wall. And I just had people pose in front of it, and figured out how to use a camera and how to edit. And next thing you know, I was getting emails from people I didn't know being like, hey, I'd love to shoot with you. What are your rates? And I hated taking people's money. It felt weird.

[17:17] Alan Seales: Really?

[17:17] Michael Kushner: Yeah. I did at first, because I'm a people pleaser. I just want to do everything for everyone. You know what I mean? I don't want to inconvenience you at all. Is there too much background noise with sandwich?

[17:30] Alan Seales: No, it doesn't matter at all.

[17:32] Michael Kushner: Okay, good. Because I could take his collar off. So yeah, I just felt weird. But then all of a sudden, I was paying my bills with just that. And I was like, I don't feel weird about this anymore. This is fine. And I was able to quit Saban. And then I kind of had this teaching job at Wingspan Arts, which was fabulous and perfect for my schedule, because only four hours a day, so I could take more clients. And then, next thing you know, I started showing up later and later and later to that teaching gig, because I was just getting busier and busier and busier with photos. Yeah. And then I had to quit that and just do photos full time.

[18:12] Alan Seales: And do you take any formal training at any point?

[18:16] Michael Kushner: Photos? Yeah. The only background I have with photos is when I was a regional actor as a kid, like 13. I would get picked up from middle school at 12pm for Wednesday and Thursday matinees. And at those shows, I made the cast give me their headshots, which were still in black and white then, the majority of them. And I would literally tell them, this doesn't look like you in your photo, and you need new ones. And we're like, oh, you look absolutely great. You have a year left to use this photo. You know what I mean? Shady, but also just honest. And I kind of always loved headshots. And I know what looks good. You know what I mean? I know what looks good. Yeah. And I like to kind of be a part of that. And yeah, I'm thrilled to be doing it.

[19:13] Alan Seales: That's really interesting. And I guess, when did that lead to the Dressing Room Project? Has that been a recent thing, or you've been doing this for a while?

[19:21] Michael Kushner: Okay. So the Dressing Room Project is actually kind of funny. I had a professor in college, Mary Corsaro. Hi, Mary. I'm going to send this to you. And I was a brat my senior year. I had senioritis in college, awfully. And there was one time, we had to do character analysis for our songs. And I was assigned... No, I chose Mama, a Rainbow from Minnie's Boys. So we're starring Shelly Winters. And she came up to me and was like, the libretto basically doesn't exist. And you need to read the libretto for the show. I mean, for the character analysis. Let me know if you need help. And I never asked her for help. I just searched on my own and couldn't find it. And then I just went on the Wikipedia site and deduced information.

And I got a big, in red, see me. And she basically literally opens up her tour and goes, I had it the whole time. You just needed to ask. And your word of the semester is preparation. And I was like, oh, okay. So when I got to the city, that was still in my mind. I was like, oh, I'm not doing the work. I need to be doing the work. And I was like, I wonder how other people prepare. So I had a friend in disaster who I was like, can I photograph you as you get ready for the show? And he let me come backstage, which wasn't approved by anyone. And I don't do that anymore. That's not how I shoot The Dressing Room Project and how no one should shoot anything. You need to get approval because you can get in trouble.

These shows need to regulate what goes out. It's press. So if you're a photographer and you're, because I've had photographers contact me being like, how did you get started with The Dressing Room Project? And how do I do what you do? And it's hard because I have these relationships with certain people that allow me to go backstage. And so it's just not a good idea. You know what I mean? But I did that. I didn't get in trouble. No one reprimanded me, but I quickly realized it was like, oh, that's not the way to do it. So then I started working with people, producers, you know, et cetera, to get that clearance for certain shoots. And someone saw the disaster photos and was like, you got to keep doing this. We love seeing this. And then here we are like 35, 40 shows later.

[22:23] Alan Seales: So what is then the purpose of The Dressing Room Project for those who don't know what it is?

[22:28] Michael Kushner: Yeah. So I photograph actors prepping for the roles on Broadway. It's super simple.

[22:31] Alan Seales: They're beautiful pictures, by the way.

[22:32] Michael Kushner: Thank you very much. Thank you. I personally love all the candid stuff. That's my jam.

[22:38] Alan Seales: Thank you. I just posted a cool photo today of, because I don't really, I try to stick it to Broadway and off-Broadway, but I shot Julia Murney, I shot Bright Lights, Big City at 54 Below last night and Julia Murney was in the cast and I was standing with her and she had a paper out and it was an understudy slip. And I was like, what? She's like, oh, I write my notes for shows on all of the understudy slips that I have for Lennon because the show was short-lived and they had stacks of slips with her name on it. And she has like all of them and uses them for notes.

[23:21] Alan Seales: Oh, that's incredible.

[23:21] Michael Kushner: And I thought that was hysterical. And I took a picture of her holding it and I posted it today. And that's backstage of 54 Below. It belongs on The Dressing Room Project. But the purpose, so a lot of actors and a lot of artists have been complaining that stage door etiquette has been getting really rough. When I was younger and I staged George shows, like when I was 13, 14, I went up to the security guard and I said, hi, I'm a theater student from out of town. I would love to go backstage. Can you take me? And the security guard literally was like, okay. And I'd get a full tour of...

[24:07] Alan Seales: From the security guard?

[24:08] Michael Kushner: From the security guard.

[24:08] Alan Seales: Wow.

[24:09] Michael Kushner: I got a full tour. And then he would usually pass me off to someone. So like for... It was Sweeney Todd. I was what? Sweeney Todd was 08. So I was... No, that's embarrassing. It was 07. No, was it 06? I think it was 06, because I was 15. We'll fact check that one. I'm trying to remember, but it was...

[24:32] Alan Seales: It's amid 0s.

[24:32] Michael Kushner: No, it wasn't 06, because that was Spring Awakening. And then Sweeney Todd came to the O'Neill. So cool. So it had to be 08. And I went up to the security guard and he let me in. And then he passed me off to a dresser, who then gave me a tour of the dressing rooms and stuff like that. And I left with Michael Cerveris's guitar pick, a signed poster from the cast. And I think that's it. But that was back in the day. Now that doesn't happen. And now with social media, we all feel like we own a part of Broadway. And so stage dooring has gotten crazy, demanding, angry tweets saying, you didn't come out, blah, blah, blah. So I kind of want to bridge that gap of audience and artist and be like, hey guys, you want to see more content?

You want to see the intimate parts before what you just paid $300 for? Here you go. And that's what the Dress Room Project is. That's essentially a lot of the reason behind why you and I are sitting here right now is I wanted to tell the stories of not just actors, but photographers and the press agents and directors and producers. And I was talking to somebody the other day who said, if I had known that being a press agent for a Broadway show was a thing, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now.

[26:09] Alan Seales: Sure.

[26:09] Michael Kushner: Yeah. Just being an actor and getting on stage is just a tiny part of the whole Broadway, the whole theater experience.

[26:18] Alan Seales: Yeah. No, it's fully true.

[26:21] Michael Kushner: The press side, especially.

[26:22] Alan Seales: Well, that's the thing. It's like, yeah, it is a tiny experience. It is a tiny part. And it's fleeting, right? Some people get a Broadway show and then don't. Some people win Tonys and they don't work again for five years. That's the nature of the beast. But that's why I'm trying to lead this charge called multi-hyphenatism.

[26:42] Michael Kushner: Did you make that word up? Or is that a word that I should look up?

[26:49] Alan Seales: The word, so I'm making it an official word. It's like an urban dictionary. It's not a real word, but it is a word that exists. It's kind of bizarre. It's like saying like, oh God. I'm like, cut this. I don't, because I can't think of anything. It's just, I'm combining two words to make it a thing. And eventually it will be real, because I'm making it real. But I will read you the definition of what a multi-hyphenate is, because I wrote it. Being a multi-hyphenate is,

[27:33] Michael Kushner: Someone that has multiple proficiencies, cross-pollinating to help flourish professional capabilities. I like that. Thank you. I do too. And so basically what that means is we can do anything we want to, especially in 2019 with social media and our phone and computer and stuff. We can do whatever we want. So for instance, I have my photography business. I take that income and I produce projects I believe in, but also projects that I can be in. Or projects that people I believe in can be in. So basically, I'm just kind of saying, hey, invest both time and money into creating things that you believe should exist, because that's what we're here to do, right? We're here in New York for you to understand and expose what theater actually is, because it's not just, oh honey, that show was just so pretty. It's blood, sweat, tears. I invested in Be More Chill, and I learned a whole new world of the theater.

[29:00] Alan Seales: I wanted to bring that up. I've got that in my notes here. How did that happen? How do you give money to Be More Chill?

[29:05] Michael Kushner: Yeah. It's crazy. I worked with a producer, and basically what happens is certain producers can ask people to invest in shows. It was my first time doing it, and there's a certain ask that you have to meet. I saw it off Broadway. I loved the show. I love all the people in it. I love Joe. I've worked with him since 2013.

[29:35] Alan Seales: Joe Iconis?

[29:36] Michael Kushner: Yeah, Joe Iconis. I believe in his work. I believe in Jen Tepper's work. She's been a friend for many years. Everything was kind of pointed, and the social media craze and how it got to Broadway, it's just kind of pointing me in the direction of like, you should do it. Take that risk. I am a risk taker. I am a believer of fall and the net will appear. So I was like, why not? Just do it. And so I did it, and it's a really interesting world, because now that I made that public, a lot of people are coming up to me asking me to give them money.

[30:14] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[30:15] Michael Kushner: Yeah. And that's when I have to go, okay, am I going to be a nice person? It's like, you know, into the woods. You're not good. You're not bad. You're just nice. You know, am I going to be nice? Or am I going to be smart?

[30:34] Alan Seales: You have to be smart. This is big money.

[30:36] Michael Kushner: And again, like what I said earlier, I'm a people pleaser. So I want to give everyone money. I want to give everyone my time. But then my boyfriend is like, you're driving yourself nuts. And then I go, I'm driving myself nuts. And I don't want to spread myself too thin. I have an issue saying no. Sometimes that's great. And sometimes it really leads me in the right direction. Other times it gets me in trouble. I don't want to get in trouble with that anymore.

[31:09] Alan Seales: Well, and I think people in this business too, I mean, this business is all about rejection. And if you say no, in the right way, I'm sure that's just par for the course.

[31:20] Michael Kushner: So that's my thing about rejection. I don't believe in no's. I don't believe in no's. This business is too crazy. This business is too nuts for no to be an answer. If someone else tells you no, you have to tell yourself yes. Do you know how many people have told me no? And I literally go, eh, all right, I'll figure it out. And I do it. I mean, basically, so many things, like the dressing room project, like getting articles out, press articles, oh, we're not interested in that. All right, fine, I'll get someone else to pick it up.

[32:06] Alan Seales: I mean, I guess we have no's when it comes to the audition room. But there are so many people out there that are playing roles right now that were initially told no. And they made, they got seen. So there's one actress, I hope she's okay with me telling her story, Lauren Chapman. I was with her at an EPA in 2014. She was not equity, I was equity. And so I was chill. I knew I was going to get seen. And I looked at her book, and we were having a talk session. I was like, you know what, I'm going to help you find better songs to sing because she's so talented. And you're going to nail it. And she's like, okay, I'll call you. So I went to go do my audition, gave her a hug, and then I left. Didn't hear from her for months.

And I didn't know why. And then my friend Sammy was like, did you hear what happened with Lauren? And I was like, what? She goes, she went to an ECC of Kinky Boots. And she's not an equity member. So what happens with auditions is equity members get seen. And then EMC gets seen, which are equity membership candidate, and that's a point system. And then NANET gets seen. And when NANET shows up at 4.30 in the morning for an audition, they can put their name on a list that may or may not get known by, you know what I mean, by the monitor. It's crazy. But she was, I think, first on the NANET list. And she got seen. And callback, callback, callback, opening night on Broadway.

[33:53] Alan Seales: No kidding.

[33:54] Michael Kushner: Yeah.

[33:55] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[33:55] Michael Kushner: Because you helped her with her song.

[33:57] Alan Seales: No, no, no, no, no. I didn't help her with her song. I just kind of like, I just, she just showed up. Like, she didn't take no for an answer. You know what I mean? She was, she didn't, like, so basically what I mean by that is the rejection that was happening because of her place in the business in that moment wasn't the answer. She wasn't just going to be like, well, I guess I'll just wait. She showed up to an audition that a lot of people don't normally get seen at. But she got seen because she showed up. She did it. She said, yes, this is it. And then had her opening night on Broadway. And then a national tour. And then now she's in Frozen. Like, she's fine because she didn't take no for an answer. And that's what this business is to me. It's, it's, there are no rules.

[34:47] Alan Seales: Oh, you're getting into Puffy Love.

[34:49] Michael Kushner: Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. He's like, all right, now I want to, now I just want to kiss.

[34:51] Alan Seales: That's so cute.

[34:54] Michael Kushner: But he, he, but yeah, so what I'm saying is, is that's my philosophy on this business is like, anyone can say no at any second, but if you just go F off, I'm, I'm in charge of what I create and put out in the world. That's basically what every movie teaches us. Every Broadway show teaches us, you know, so might as well take it and run with it. You know, that's what my family taught me.

[35:20] Alan Seales: And you're, you're also involved in, or you do makeup artistry as well.

[35:23] Michael Kushner: Oh my God. Where did you read that? Cause I need to get it down.

[35:26] Alan Seales: Your website, I guess.

[35:28] Michael Kushner: Cool, cool, cool. My, my, my people call me and tell me to take it down.

[35:33] Alan Seales: You don't do that anymore.

[35:34] Michael Kushner: So the makeup is a funny thing. Like I studied it in high school and then I had, I was having this moment in like 2015 where I was like, you know, I have to get like my personality out there. Like I have to get seen, like I haven't done a show in a while. I'm just kind of hiding. So I started doing these like weird web series episodes, series episodes, like these shorts where I is in October and it was called trick or beat. And I would get into Disney villain makeup on video, but splice it together. What was really funny. And I was telling jokes and it was good. And the first video got like 7,000 views in like 12 hours.

[36:14] Alan Seales: Wow.

[36:15] Michael Kushner: And I was like, Oh, I have a, people want to see me talk. They want to see me do things. So it kind of inspired me to do more, but that's where the makeup comes from. And that's as far as it goes. So I need to take that off my website.

[36:30] Alan Seales: Well, speaking of, I guess, YouTube and short, short projects, you work with Wesley Taylor.

[36:34] Michael Kushner: Yeah.

[36:35] Alan Seales: Who we've had, he was episode three of this podcast.

[36:37] Michael Kushner: I know. I love him.

[36:39] Alan Seales: So, so nice. Very, very great guy. And so you produced Indoor Boys.

[36:43] Michael Kushner: Yeah. What Jim Carrey said. Yep.

[36:45] Alan Seales: Yeah. How did you, how'd you meet Wesley? How did that come about?

[36:48] Michael Kushner: Dressing room project.

[36:50] Alan Seales: There you go.

[36:50] Michael Kushner: Yeah. So I shot him for, um, for plankton and SpongeBob and we became friends and we had coffee one day and I was like, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm trying to figure out what to do with Indoor Boys season two. And I said, I'll help you. And he's like, we're looking for a producer. We're looking for a producer. I think that's what it was. I was like, I'll do it. What do you need? And that's, you know, we talked shop and figured out what I was going to do. And then that's what happened. And I actually even got to film some of it too. So.

[37:25] Alan Seales: DP in your credits too.

[37:26] Michael Kushner: Yeah. Yeah. And then, so that was our second project together. And then our third one was recently Save Me Please, which is a short that stars Isaac Powell and Alan Filderman. And, uh, we're submitting to a bunch of festivals and we just had a screening the other night of it.

[37:44] Alan Seales: Oh, I saw that on his, uh, on his Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. It looked good.

[37:48] Michael Kushner: Yeah. It was good. It was good.

[37:50] Alan Seales: And you mentioned having to write a one man show in college, right?

[37:55] Michael Kushner: Yeah.

[37:55] Alan Seales: Is that where Moo With Me came from or is that different?

[37:59] Michael Kushner: Sure. Moo With Me came out of, uh, it's, this is all part of the multi-hyphenate aspect of myself. So I'm an actor, but my auditions aren't biting for me. It's like, I'm having trouble and I will say that publicly. It's like, I'm not either, I'm not a good auditioner or, uh, whatever I'm offering just isn't, isn't it right now. And that's okay because I will win the Tony for Roger Debris and the revival of the producers. That's fine. You know, it's what's going to happen, but I just have to figure out what I'm going to do in between now and then. Um, so I've always loved one man shows, John Leguizamo's, you know, Bridge and Tunnel. Um, not John Leguizamo's Bridge and Tunnel, but John, like John Leguizamo's Pieces and Bridge and Tunnel, uh, which is a separate play.

And, um, uh, I was seeing a bunch of them and I was like, you know what, I'm going to do mine. But that was just an idea. So what actually happened was I photographed Idina Menzel, who's my everything. I love her. We have the same jawline. I'm obsessed with her. Idina and Sandwich. Got it. Those are my two. Yep. Um, and I photographed her the whole, so what happened was afterwards I was in a room because I was going to get a group photo of like the talent. She was headlining, but it was like other, it was, so I was in a circle with, um, the artistic director of the theater company, Kristen Anderson Lopez, Bobby Lopez, Idina, and I. And, um, we were talking as a group and she is like, wow, thank you so much for having me.

That was amazing. And then stops mid-sentence and looks at me dead in the eyes and goes, and you were giving me such an incredible energy up there. I felt you. I blacked out. Um, and I was just like, yeah, because you're my everything. And, uh, she was incredibly sweet and amazing. And, um, so I asked her, I was like, you know, since I can't be in the group photo, can I get a photo with you? And she's like, man, of course. And I handed my camera off to my phone off to someone. She's like, no, what are you doing? Let's take a selfie. And I was like, okay. So we took a selfie and I rose, I, you know, I held my camera, my phone up and she's like, what are we doing? And I was like, we're showing off our jaw lines.

Cause we have the same one. And she literally was like, okay. And we just like, and then that was the end of the night. And I ran and I went home like on airs because that had been 13 years of wanting that to happen of that moment. And, uh, she saved me from, you know, Alice Ripley, Adina, Patti LaPone, they all saved me from bullying. You know what I mean? From some awful years, uh, they're heroes to me and I got to meet, you know, my hero. And, uh

[41:18] Michael Kushner: My friend Ben Rimmelauer, who wrote Patty Issues, his show about Patti LuPone, he texted me and was like, you know you're writing that into a show, right? And I was like, okay. He's like, I'm doing Patty Issues on January 28th. I'll do it at 7pm and then you'll do your show right after me. And this is at Green Room 42. And I said, okay. And that was three weeks away. And is that what it was? No, no, no. Time had gone by. Time had gone by and I never did it. That's what happened. I never did it. And then finally he checked in with me in December. So it was a few months later. And then he was like, how's your show coming? And I was like, it's fine. And he's like, great, you're going to do it with me on this date.

And it was a few weeks away and I was going to Israel for Birthright in between. I had BroadwayCon. There was a lot going on in between that day and the show. And I said, okay. I had to write a show and rehearse it and memorize it. And I was going to Israel for 10 days and running a booth at BroadwayCon. And I did it. I literally was like on a camel rehearsing my show. Literally, I was running through my lines on a camel in the desert of Israel. That's what happened. How'd the show go? It was great. It was sold out. Awesome. Yeah. And then brought it back again in April. And then I'm going to do it again this year. I just don't know when. Please let me know. I want to see it. Yeah, it'd be great.

It's just me talking for 60 minutes. There's no songs. I still want to see it. It's fun. Can we talk about bullying for a bit? Sure. What happened? Are you okay talking with that? How did Idina and team help you out? When I needed to escape or when I needed... Hey, he protects me now, so no more bullies. Good. When I needed an escape, when I needed to really be me and not try to fit in or not try to do whatever, I put on my cast albums. And I went into them, and I studied shows that I didn't know, and I became friends with those characters, and I went in my head, and I was the first male Elphaba, and you know what I mean? But also lessons of those cast albums and those shows helped me understand that there were better things coming, that I just needed to survive those years, and everything would be fine.

And it was. And unfortunately, there are people on this planet that don't have, that don't find those things. And it gets so bad that they have to do unfortunate things, you know what I mean? To escape it when my thing was just cast albums. That was it. That was my saving grace, was Broadway. And if someone was picking on me, I would quote a lyric at them, a Sondheim lyric at them. And they would just look at me confused and kind of be weirded out and walk away or whatever. Sandwich! Sandwich! Sandwich! Sandwich! Sandwich! What are you staring at? Oh no, all of a sudden you're scared of the back path? Hey. He usually steals the spotlight, and this is no different. You're ruining a moment, Sandwich.

No, it's okay. He's like, Dad, you're fine. You don't need to talk about bullying anymore. Well, okay. No, it's okay. But my only wish is that, like, the Dressing Room Project is that for kids in middle school and high school where they're like, oh my god, I just gotta survive this year and I'll get to Broadway and create something of my own, or I can't wait to meet, you know, whenever I post a picture of Wes Taylor or whoever I'm posting a picture of. It's like, I can't wait to meet them. I can't wait to work with them. And that's what I did. I literally was like, I can't wait to work with blank and blank and blank, and then all of a sudden they're walking through my door. Your actual door.

My actual apartment door. Frankie Raphael is one of them. Frankie Raphael, Francis Raphael is the original Eponine. The Tony-winning Eponine. We go out to dinner now. We closed in London. We closed... Oh my god, what's the club? Oh no. There's a club on the West End. Everyone goes to after. It's a club. But it's a club. But there's a piano, and we sang I'm Getting Back Together and Taking It On The Road together at 2am, 3am. This woman I listened to on the white cassette of Les Mis. Cassette. Yeah. And we were singing together casually, and I photographed her as well. It's like, that's, and then there's going to be a whole other round of those people coming. That's incredible. So we'll start to wrap up here a little bit.

Oh no. But I have a question though. Do you consider yourself a photographer, an actor, or a producer first? Or where do you see yourself going? Like, money's no object. Anyone can say yes to whatever you say. What would you love to do? Honest answer? Yeah. You're going to annoy me. I mean, wait. You're not going to annoy me. I'm going to annoy you. You're not annoying me, I swear. I wasn't asleep. I consider myself a theater artist. I'm just, I kind of do whatever I'm called to do. You know, because I love photography just as much as I love performance. And I love performance as much as I love producing, which is very new to me, even though I did it a little bit in high school. It's new to me on a professional macro level.

So, I kind of, and I love it just as much. So, I kind of just don't want to pick my favorite kid, so I just say I'm a theater artist. And that's kind of where I'm at. There's nothing more miserable than being in a show that I don't want to be in or giving a performance that I don't feel like is actually me. So, I'm happy that I have photography because it helps me stay away from those auditions of shows that I don't want to do. Because I don't need to do them. You know, if I didn't have photography then I'd need to go on certain auditions so I can make health weeks or make rent, or you know what I mean? And I don't want to do that and I don't need to do that. So, knock on wood, I'm lucky. And I check myself all the time.

Trust. You know what I mean? But really, I'm still part of the service industry. I serve my fellow actor, my fellow artist. I have things that I need to give people. So, even though I'm not in the service industry for a survival job or whatever, I still am of service to people. Because the theater is for the other. So, that's kind of how I approach my life and what I do. Is there something that you want to do that you haven't gotten to do yet? Oh. Yeah, I mean, perform on Broadway. Definitely. The dream is not dead to act on Broadway. But it's got to be the right thing. Like, all my dream roles are... now he's sleeping. All my dream roles are literally Tanardie and Les Mis, Roger Dubrin, the producers, Rose and Gypsy.

You know what I mean? They're all 40-year-old women, basically. And I got time for that. So, I'll check that off later. Like, I'll play Tanardie. Because what's going to happen by then is my friends that are in the industry now are going to be those casting directors. And they're going to be like, well, we know who needs to be Roger Dubrin. We know who needs to be Tanardie. Because that's a huge chunk of the industry. It's a gender bend it all. I know, right? I will definitely play Madame Tanardie. I'm off-booked for both of those roles. Already? Oh my god, I've been off-booked for Madame Tanardie and Tanardie since I'm like eight. Please. Are you kidding? I played Symphonic Virgin, Broadway, you know, London.

You got it. Okay, so three standard questions that I ask everybody to wrap up these podcasts. Number one, very simply, what motivates you? Food. No, I'm just kidding. To eat. Well, especially now because I'm on a huge diet and workout regimen. So, I'm like, give me everything. What motivates me? Inspiration. I love seeing people's faces get it because of stuff I do. And what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path? Be as weird as you can be. Make all the mistakes because that way you find your tribe. I have a friend who I say jokes to myself all the time and no one hears them. But I'll hear one person go, ha ha ha ha ha and just give me a laugh and they're looking at me and they go, I heard you.

You're my people. You know, that's your people. And those are the people that find that humor and you figure out what it is. But it's not just about humor, it's about artistry, it's about what you actually... you know, when I was a part of Musical Theatre Factory, I was a founding member. I am a founding member there. I don't do as much work there anymore. I've sort of had to move on but I very much support them. When I was with them, it was a tribe of people and this is one of the moments where I had tears in my eyes because at the end of the first year there was a plaque that was that was erected. I said erected. There was a plaque that was erected and it had my name etched on it. These are the founding members of Musical Theatre Factory and it was people like Joe Iconis and Rebecca Naomi Jones and Jen Tepper and it was these people that I was like, holy crap.

I did this with these people. These are my people. And that was really cool. So find your people. Keep being weird. Keep doing you. And last, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life but you can see it as many times as you want, what show would you see? Wait, if I could pick one show? One show for the rest of your life but you can see it as many times as you want. Hands down Les Mis. Doesn't get old for me. I've seen it many times. Broadway, tour, West End. It's the best. It's literally a tattoo of mine. It's on my chest. What do you have on your chest? I have Sandwich on my shoulder. I have Mary Poppins on my forearm. And on my chest I have Le Grand Jeu which is The Great Day but it's the French version of One Day More.

And it's in Victor Hugo's handwriting but he never wrote the phrase so I found his manuscripts and pieced together his letters to form it. And I also got it on June 5th which is the day of the Gene Rebellion, the big battle. Alright, well for those listening, you are a lovely geek. I love it. We can connect with you on Instagram at the Michael Kushner or at the Dressing Room Project and then on Twitter at TDRPBway so the Dressing Room Project Broadway and then your website of course michaelkushneronline.com. You can get more of me in the Theatre Podcast as always on Instagram and Twitter Theatre underscore podcast facebook.com slash officialtheatrepodcast and listen and subscribe, rate and review, send me an email feedback at thetheatrepodcast.com. I say this so often now.

This is produced by Jillian Hockman and thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for our intro and outro music. Michael Kushner, thank you so much for talking with me. I had a wonderful time. Just like Carol Burnett, I'm wiggling my ear right now but no one can see that. Thank you. You're so welcome. Thank you for coming.