This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. As always, I'm Alan Seales. And as sometimes, I'm Jillian Hochman. Who else would you be?

[0:17] Jillian Hochman: I want to be Izzy and Caitlin. Oh, I want to be Izzy and Caitlin. I just want to be a fly on the wall and watch the conversations they have when it's just the two of them.

[0:28] Alan Seales: This episode is with the wonderful Isabelle McCalla and Caitlin Kinnunen. And we recorded this episode actually right before the Tony Awards. So no matter what happens, we are incredibly proud of Caitlin and The Prom and everyone who was nominated this year.

[0:40] Jillian Hochman: But we don't know who's won the Tonys yet. Oh, this episode with Izzy and Caitlin, absolutely phenomenal. This was actually very specifically requested. Once we announced we were going to do The Prom Takeover Month for May, several people wrote us and were like, please do Izzy with Caitlin and Caitlin with Izzy. And we got to have the two of them together.

[0:58] Alan Seales: They're awesome. And boy, they did not disappoint.

[1:01] Jillian Hochman: No, they reminded me of me and my sister, and how like, just we talk nonsense forever together. They seem like they're actual, like, close, like, they're friends. They're going to be friends for the rest of their lives. And it is very apparent.

[1:13] Alan Seales: I think they are actual soulmates.

[1:15] Jillian Hochman: Yeah. They trust each other implicitly. They support each other both on and off stage. And I think they're both going through the same point in their lives where both of them have just been thrust into this spotlight. And like, they're mid-20s and thrust into the spotlight. And this is the first time ever that like, they haven't had to struggle for a little while.

[1:34] Alan Seales: Yeah. And they're like, what do I do? How do I adult now? Adulting is so hard.

[1:40] Jillian Hochman: Adulting is very hard. They're doing so great. I'm so proud of them.

[1:45] Alan Seales: Yeah, they're the two of them together. Like, just listen to this episode, everybody. It's so incredible. And there's one particular story, Jillian, you were just telling me that was your favorite was in the middle of a show, Caitlin actually called out.

[2:00] Jillian Hochman: Yeah, she was having a panic attack. And she had, she was saying she was able to breathe through some of them before. And she's very open about mental health and her depression, anxiety.

[2:13] Alan Seales: Yeah, about therapy.

[2:15] Jillian Hochman: Yeah. So, but she started a show and she was having a bit of a panic attack. She got through the first act and she started the second act and said, you know what, I need to stop. I know my body, I know myself. And this is something I can't compromise on right now. And through the magic of Broadway, the magnificent understudy came on and they completed the show and she knew it was the right choice. And she was not afraid to say, hey, this is what I need right now.

[2:41] Alan Seales: Yeah, I really admire that.

[2:43] Jillian Hochman: Yeah, me too. So everybody, before we get into the episode, please take a moment and visit us online at thetheatrepodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at theatre_podcast. And actually, we just created an additional Patreon tier, a lower tier. So we moved the benefits of the lowest tier to this new lower tier. And then the $5 tier that was the lowest now gets you advanced access. So if you go to thetheatrepodcast.com slash Patreon, and if you pledge $5 a month, you will get to know who we're interviewing in advance, and you will be able to submit questions that may be answered by your favorite Broadway people.

[3:23] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. Everybody, please enjoy this episode with Isabelle McCalla and Caitlin Kinnunen.

[3:36] Alan Seales: Today, I have the absolute pleasure of being able to record another multi-guest episode. My first guest made her Broadway debut last year as Jasmine in the production of Aladdin after coming off the tour of the same name and now stars as Alyssa in The Prom. My second guest made her Broadway debut in 2008 at the age of 16 and is now nominated for a 2019 Tony Award for her performance as Emma, also in The Prom. Isabelle McCalla and Caitlin Kinnunen, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[4:03] Isabelle McCalla: Way to say both of our names correctly.

[4:06] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, awesome. Nailed it.

[4:08] Isabelle McCalla: People don't get it?

[4:09] Caitlin Kinnunen: Oh, yeah.

[4:11] Isabelle McCalla: What do they say?

[4:12] Caitlin Kinnunen: McCayla.

[4:12] Caitlin Kinnunen: Or McCalla. McCalla doesn't bother me as much because here's the thing, because my family's Haitian, and when I'm around their family, they yell at each other, oh, McCalla. So they say McCalla, so I'm like, my dad says McCalla, so I don't really... I say McCalla, but it doesn't bother me when people say McCalla because it kind of sounds similar.

[4:15] Isabelle McCalla: Or McCalla.

[4:29] Isabelle McCalla: It's like a combo.

[4:30] Caitlin Kinnunen: It's a combo, and people just say all versions of what Kinnunen could be.

[4:35] Isabelle McCalla: What is Kinnunen?

[4:36] Caitlin Kinnunen: It's Finnish.

[4:37] Isabelle McCalla: Finnish.

[4:38] Caitlin Kinnunen: And it's actually a very common Finnish last name. It's the equivalent of Smith in America.

[4:43] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, really?

[4:43] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah.

[4:43] Isabelle McCalla: Well, that shows how not-worldly-traveled I am, I guess.

[4:46] Caitlin Kinnunen: I mean, I have never been, so I just know that. That's a random fact.

[4:51] Isabelle McCalla: Getting some Finnish culture today.

[4:53] Caitlin Kinnunen: Ask me anything else, and I will not know the answer.

[4:56] Isabelle McCalla: Where is Finland?

[4:58] Caitlin Kinnunen: It's a country.

[5:02] Isabelle McCalla: They sing about it in Spamalot.

[5:03] Caitlin Kinnunen: Did I get it?

[5:04] Isabelle McCalla: Yes.

[5:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: Did I get it?

[5:05] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, you win. Ding, ding.

[5:06] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yay!

[5:07] Alan Seales: Congratulations on seven Tony nominations for The Prom. The show is incredible. I love that it is, I guess, pretty much the only original show on Broadway at the moment with all these nominations.

[5:25] Jillian Hochman: And we'll get into that, but on the podcast, normally we talk about your humble beginnings, where you grew up. And I want to get, of course, Caitlin, you didn't come from Finland. Well, you came from Finland, but you didn't come from Finland.

[5:36] Caitlin Kinnunen: Many generations ago.

[5:38] Alan Seales: Your DNA comes from Finland.

[5:40] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. But yeah, let's start where you grew up. Who wants to go first?

[5:43] Isabelle McCalla: Easy, go.

[5:43] Caitlin Kinnunen: Oh, God. Okay. I was born in New York City, actually.

[5:50] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah?

[5:50] Caitlin Kinnunen: And yeah, Lenox Hill Hospital. And I lived in Queens for the first five years of my life with my mom and dad, tiny apartment. And then we moved to Rockland County, New York, which is the poor man's Westchester, across Hudson River. Yeah, 45 minutes north. And I kind of did the majority of my growing up there until I went to the University of Michigan for college.

[6:16] Isabelle McCalla: Did four years there. And I studied abroad in London for a semester.

[6:21] Caitlin Kinnunen: I didn't know that.

[6:22] Isabelle McCalla: I did. Yeah, I went to Lambda. It was really awesome.

[6:25] Caitlin Kinnunen: That's amazing.

[6:26] Isabelle McCalla: It was really fun. And then, yeah, after graduation, we showcased in New York, and I've kind of been here ever since.

[6:33] Alan Seales: Fun. And Caitlin, you're from Seattle?

[6:37] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, I'm from outside of Seattle, Kamano Island, technically, which is actually like a relatively large island north of Seattle. Compared to Manhattan, it's huge, but there's like no one there. So I grew up there. And I grew up doing theater in Seattle and Issaquah, Washington. And that's kind of like all I did. I was homeschooled, and I just did theater. And then when I was 15, I auditioned for Spring Awakening, and I ended up booking that. I moved out to New York when I was 16 with my mom. My dad and my sister stayed in Washington, and they had a long distance relationship for two and a half years and sacrificed so much so that I could follow my dreams. But yeah, so I've been living in New York for 11 years now, and it's amazing. But yeah, so I just kind of been both back and forth.

[7:24] Alan Seales: So what were both of you, your parents, were they supportive? Obviously, Caitlin, your parents were very supportive.

[7:29] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, mine were incredibly supportive from day one.

[7:33] Alan Seales: Yeah. So Izzy, did you have sort of an equal amount of support, or were you like, screw these guys, I'm doing my thing?

[7:37] Isabelle McCalla: It's kind of a mix of both. Growing up, academia was very important in my family. And my mom actually was an... Both my parents are professional dancers, and they just say, there's no money in the arts. And my mother was an actor for a time until she switched to dance and knows personally how difficult this profession is. So she really urged me away from it for the longest time and wanted me desperately to be a nuclear physicist. No joke?

[8:01] Caitlin Kinnunen: Well, it was a joke, but she really wanted... I mean, she met, she taught some nuclear physicists, and they were like, they know what happened at Area 51.

[8:20] Isabelle McCalla: Wow. They're clearly non-nuclear physicists.

[8:26] Caitlin Kinnunen: That was incredible.

[8:26] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, but she just wanted to know the secrets, but also wanted me to make money. Well, if you could know the secrets, you wouldn't be able to tell her.

[8:30] Caitlin Kinnunen: Exactly. She doesn't get it. Anyway, but they were also very adamant. They were like, if you really want this, you got to train really hard for it, because it's not worth it to do it unless you can actually succeed. So even up to my senior year of high school, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to go to school for academics or for theater. And luckily, I got into the University of Michigan, which kind of gave me the best of both worlds. So I could get my BFA training and also take an English lit class with physics majors. So it was kind of the best of both worlds for me. And once I had gotten through all of that, now my mom, even though she's kind of my biggest critic, she's also my biggest fan.

[9:17] Caitlin Kinnunen: So they're very supportive of me now. And honestly, once I got into school, they were very supportive as long... Because I kind of just... With all of their warnings and feedback, I still wanted it, and I wanted to make this dream happen. And I was like, yeah, I know it will be hard sometimes, but that's a worthy sacrifice for me. So yeah, so they're very supportive. Just took some cautionary tales to get there.

[9:40] Alan Seales: And do you have any siblings, either of you?

[9:40] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, we both do. I have an older sister who's a photographer. She's awesome.

[9:46] Caitlin Kinnunen: Has she come and photographed you?

[9:46] Isabelle McCalla: She does all of my headshots. She's amazing. She hates doing them because I get so angry. But yeah, I force her to take my headshots. She's very talented. She's very good at what she does. Julia Kinnunen, follow her on Instagram.

[10:02] Caitlin Kinnunen: It's Finnish.

[10:02] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. Which is on the planet of Earth.

[10:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes, it is. Where? Who knows? Who knows? Somewhere over there. I'm pointing.

[10:08] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, I have a younger brother. He's going to be a senior in college. He's out in California. He's an applied mathematics major, but he's also an incredible actor. And he's also very handsome. I feel like the listener should know that.

[10:24] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, follow him at JC McCalla on Instagram. You won't be disappointed.

[10:30] Isabelle McCalla: And he dances hip hop. He's a go-getter. He's like, I want to make money, but I also want to act. So who knows what he's going to do? But he's very talented.

[10:36] Alan Seales: I heard this morning, actually, I was listening to Armchair Expert by Dax Shepard. Love that podcast. He's interviewing Will Ferrell. And something that Will's dad gave him was, it was the advice when Will was like, Dad, I think I want to do this comedy thing. And this reminded, Izzy, what you said a second ago about what your parents told you about going into this, reminded me of this. And he said, his dad told him, I'm horrible at telling stories, apparently, his dad told him that you should do it if you're going to be happier failing at that than succeeding at something else.

[11:17] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. Yeah. That's a very succinct way to put it.

[11:21] Alan Seales: Which is interesting because your parents were like, well, you got to succeed at it.

[11:26] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. Well, a little bit of both. The knowledge that you will fail, and that's okay. And it's very difficult to succeed. So just the knowledge.

[11:32] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. I think their philosophy is wrapped up in that thesis statement that Will Ferrell's dad so eloquently put that I took longer to say. But yeah, I think that is truth to it. Because when all of us enter this field, there is no guarantee for anything. None. And I think if you come in with expectations, you will be sorely disappointed regardless of what happens. So it's kind of having that resilience and vulnerability to be open to the possibilities of what can happen, because your life can literally change in a day.

[12:09] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[12:13] Caitlin Kinnunen: I love Dax Shepard. He added on to that by saying that it's a lot of talent. I mean, so you're going to be good at it, right? His dad knew he was good at it, but the rest of it is all luck. Yeah. And you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Yeah. I think it's a combination of luck and hard work. You have to be talented. You also have to work your ass off to continue to be good at it. But then also, luck is a huge factor that people don't really think about. Yeah. Because there are plenty of incredibly talented, hardworking people who don't get the success that we've been lucky to have. Yeah. And I think the important thing, too, is comparison is kind of the death. Comparison is the thief of joy.

Exactly. The thief of joy. The thief of joy. That was beautiful. Thank you. You're welcome. But yeah, that kind of... I had one of my professors in college who was brilliant. He said, you can't move forward when you're looking to the side, which I always loved. Yeah. Because it's so true. You can't. There's just absolutely no way that you will find and be able to hone your craft to the best of your own ability and find your happiness in that while you're comparing yourself to somebody who's the same age or maybe looks like you or not. There's no rhyme or reason to this. And again, you're setting yourself up for failure if you do compare. Right. So Caitlin, you came over here in '08, you said.

[13:42] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes.

[13:44] Caitlin Kinnunen: And did Spring Awakening. And then I was looking, of course, researching for this. The next Broadway credit was Bridges of Madison County in 2014. So talking about luck and perseverance and struggle and stuff, what happened in those six years?

[13:59] Caitlin Kinnunen: Many things. I went and I did the national tour of Spring Awakening. Oh my God. I did the national tour of Next to Normal after Spring Awakening. But like in between that, I did like a few film and TV things. I did a lot of readings. I did a lot of workshops that never saw the light of day. And I just kept going and kept auditioning and kept showing up and kept being the one who got told no over and over and over again. But I just stayed. And here I am. You know, and it was like I think actually like it's funny because I don't think of like that time gap as like the one that was challenging. I think of the time gap between Bridges and Prom as the one that was like the most challenging because Prom made it so I've been working on Prom for four and a half years.

And within that four and a half years, we were supposed to come to Broadway three times, I think. And so it was like, we're going. Clear your schedules. Oh, wait, we're not going. So like, good luck. Put stuff back on your schedule.

[15:11] Isabelle McCalla: Exactly.

[15:12] Caitlin Kinnunen: And so there was like a four and a half year period of me having this job, but not having it because we actually weren't doing it. So there was a four and a half year time period of like me being a nanny and dog walking and like being on Medicaid and like almost applying for food stamps because I was trying to make ends meet between Broadway shows. And people don't think about that. They say it's actually interesting because I remember talking to Fernell, who's one of our ensemble members about it. He like overheard me talking at a talkback after one of our shows and saying that like people assume that like you book your Broadway show and after that it's easy and it's just like one Broadway show after another.

[15:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: And it's like, no, I booked Bridges of Madison County and then didn't have another Broadway show for five years. So like you got to figure out how to make ends meet between those things. And as Izzy said, theater is not a lucrative profession all the time. And so doing like little out of town gigs does not necessarily pay your rent. So you got to figure out how to do it, but also be doing what you love and finding creative outlets, but then also surviving.

[16:28] Isabelle McCalla: Right.

[16:28] Caitlin Kinnunen: I don't know if any of that makes sense.

[16:30] Isabelle McCalla: No, it makes a lot of sense. And I see that with a lot of people from my personal history is that they moved to New York because they had to act and they just started struggling. And then like they've got the flexible jobs are often the ones that keep you out at night. So then you can't get up for the 6 a.m. ensemble calls or whatever your case. If you don't have your equity card, you can't go to it. You can't book a slot. And it seems like this horrible cycle.

[16:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes.

[16:57] Isabelle McCalla: That at the same time when it succeeds is the best thing ever.

[17:00] Caitlin Kinnunen: Exactly.

[17:01] Alan Seales: Right. So like Izzy, you're a little bit younger, I think, right?

[17:07] Isabelle McCalla: She's a child. I'm two years younger than you.

[17:10] Alan Seales: No, I just like giving you shit.

[17:14] Alan Seales: So you made your Broadway debut in 2018 and you did the tour of that in 2017, right?

[17:20] Isabelle McCalla: I did. I did.

[17:21] Alan Seales: Were you with Mary Antonini on that one?

[17:22] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, love of my life. We've actually done. This is our fourth contract together.

[17:27] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[17:28] Isabelle McCalla: I worked with her on my first professional job out of school. We did West Side Story at Oslo Repertory Theater and she was Anita and I understudied her. And then we did the out-of-town triad of the prom. And then we went on the Aladdin tour together. And now we're back on Broadway with the prom. We joke about it that it's written into our contracts that we have to work together. We are not allowed to do shows that either.

[17:50] Caitlin Kinnunen: I love her.

[17:50] Isabelle McCalla: She's like my sister. I love her so much.

[17:52] Alan Seales: She and Teddy and Becca, I interviewed them on this podcast too.

[17:55] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, you did.

[17:55] Alan Seales: Yeah, the three of them.

[17:56] Isabelle McCalla: They're incredible.

[17:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: Incredible together. Oh, they're so great.

[18:01] Alan Seales: So you had that in 2017, came here in 2018. You were Jasmine on Broadway. And did either of you, when you started to get these roles and you saw them coming, did you get any sort of a false, or I guess a sense of like what you were saying of, now the next thing is just going to fall on my lap and I can go spend all my money.

[18:22] Isabelle McCalla: No.

[18:23] Isabelle McCalla: It's going to keep coming.

[18:25] Isabelle McCalla: I'm learning how to deal with money right now currently. But no, because there's actually that, my fear is different. For me, I started, I have a heavy dance background and I thought for years that I would dance in ensembles and understudy principal roles. That was going to be how I made money. And Casey kind of plucked me out.

[18:50] Isabelle McCalla: Casey Nicholaw gave me this incredible opportunity of playing Jasmine in the national tour. And my fear actually grew because now I'm like, okay, now I'm at a higher level. Hopefully I want to maintain this level, but that means opportunities are going to be fewer and farther between. I mean, even now I have this fear that like, oh my God, am I ever going to work again after this? I want this show to run forever.

[19:15] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, the fear never goes away.

[19:16] Isabelle McCalla: The fear never goes away. I mean, yeah.

[19:18] Caitlin Kinnunen: Because this business is so unpredictable and you can be told, yeah, you're going to Broadway tomorrow and then tomorrow be told...

[19:27] Isabelle McCalla: Actually, no, we're not going to do that.

[19:29] Caitlin Kinnunen: Right.

[19:31] Caitlin Kinnunen: I had actually one of my, like a contract for another show I was on, they had offered me a Broadway contract and the next day took it away from me.

[19:45] Isabelle McCalla: What?

[19:45] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. So like, it's like, yeah.

[19:48] Isabelle McCalla: Oh my God.

[19:49] Caitlin Kinnunen: And it just, you can never put all of your eggs in one basket in this industry because they can be ripped away from you at any moment. And that like, I think it's like the most anxiety that I get is being like, I can't rely on anything in my life.

[20:08] Isabelle McCalla: So yeah.

[20:09] Caitlin Kinnunen: Cool.

[20:09] Caitlin Kinnunen: Which is why you're going to have to be good with going with the flow. And when you have these big jobs, it's like, your money is not really real because you've got to save it for the time that you are employed and can't work.

[20:21] Caitlin Kinnunen: Like truly, at the end of when Bridges closed, because Bridges, again, like we ran for three months and that was it. And so it was like, okay, well I have, I luckily saved this money and that money made it so I could pay my rent for a while. But then after that, money goes away very fast in New York City.

[20:38] Isabelle McCalla: So quickly. Oh my God.

[20:38] Caitlin Kinnunen: Even if you're not spending it, like truly, if you are like bare bones, just paying your rent and buying food, money goes fast because rent is expensive.

[20:45] Isabelle McCalla: So expensive. And utilities too.

[20:47] Caitlin Kinnunen: And it's awful.

[20:48] Isabelle McCalla: Summertime where they say, I mean, there's just so many ways it goes.

[20:51] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah.

[20:51] Caitlin Kinnunen: I'm working with a financial advisor now who's trying to, I'm trying to stabilize and get a plan for adulting together.

[20:57] Isabelle McCalla: I'm not.

[20:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: You're trying to adult so hard.

[20:58] Isabelle McCalla: I'm trying to adult so hard because I'm so good at avoiding it.

[21:02] Caitlin Kinnunen: And she says that, but she's like the most put together human being ever.

[21:06] Isabelle McCalla: I don't know about that.

[21:07] Caitlin Kinnunen: But I'm trying.

[21:09] Caitlin Kinnunen: What do you mean?

[21:10] Isabelle McCalla: You are succeeding.

[21:11] Caitlin Kinnunen: She's just like the most eloquently spoken, smart individual who like knows what she wants.

[21:16] Isabelle McCalla: You know all my shit.

[21:17] Caitlin Kinnunen: No, but it does. Like you so clearly know what you want out of your life and you are very driven to get it and you are taking all of the correct steps to get it and like putting your wellbeing ahead of other people's nonsense.

[21:32] Caitlin Kinnunen: And like that to me is being a successful adult.

[21:34] Isabelle McCalla: So like gold star.

[21:36] Caitlin Kinnunen: I love you, babe.

[21:37] Isabelle McCalla: I just air high fived her.

[21:38] Caitlin Kinnunen: I hope you could hear that in the background.

[21:40] Isabelle McCalla: Now we're holding hands.

[21:41] Caitlin Kinnunen: We are.

[21:42] Alan Seales: Just narrating what's going on for the viewers.

[21:44] Isabelle McCalla: Now we're waving them back and forth in a gentle concert motion.

[21:48] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, we like to harmonize really badly together, too.

[21:52] Isabelle McCalla: It sounds really not good.

[21:54] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah.

[21:55] Isabelle McCalla: We're talented.

[21:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: Our favorite thing to do is sing the beginning of Fallen by Alicia Keys.

[22:00] Alan Seales: And how does that go?

[22:01] Isabelle McCalla: It goes.

[22:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: I don't even.

[22:05] Isabelle McCalla: I keep on falling.

[22:20] Caitlin Kinnunen: We can't rip.

[22:21] Isabelle McCalla: Wait, but OK, that's another thing that you lie about. Izzy claims that she can't rip and she actually can.

[22:26] Caitlin Kinnunen: Whereas I actually cannot.

[22:30] Isabelle McCalla: Can you do one of those things where you like splice into this conversation what I'm talking about?

[22:33] Caitlin Kinnunen: Oh, my God.

[22:35] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, because it's the best.

[22:37] Caitlin Kinnunen: So the Bridges of Madison County cast recording. We it's my favorite story to tell. We recorded it all in one room with the band and the cast all like in the same space without any barriers put up. It was the most incredible experience.

[22:51] Caitlin Kinnunen: But because of that, it was really challenging to fix mistakes. And there's one part during State Road 21 where it's supposed to be.

[23:03] Isabelle McCalla: Five more hours to the final judging.

[23:05] Caitlin Kinnunen: I can hold it all together and I will not cry on the cast recording.

[23:11] Isabelle McCalla: It's not that it's like and I will not cry because that to me is a riff like a three note like descending scale is a riff.

[23:22] Caitlin Kinnunen: And I can't do it.

[23:26] Isabelle McCalla: It's horrendous.

[23:27] Caitlin Kinnunen: So please put that in writing.

[23:29] Isabelle McCalla: You were acting in that part of the song. You were so overtaken, but you will not cry.

[23:33] Caitlin Kinnunen: Totally.

[23:35] Caitlin Kinnunen: That's what I was going for.

[23:37] Isabelle McCalla: The intention came through.

[23:40] Caitlin Kinnunen: I got it ringing in my ears and my hands keep shaking.

[23:43] Caitlin Kinnunen: I ate seven corn dogs and I think I might die.

[23:46] Isabelle McCalla: Five more hours to the final judging.

[23:48] Caitlin Kinnunen: I can hold it all together and I will not cry.

[23:54] Isabelle McCalla: Babe, you can do it better than you think you can.

[23:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: I know.

[23:57] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[24:01] Caitlin Kinnunen: I love watching.

[24:02] Isabelle McCalla: I'm nominated for a Tony.

[24:03] Caitlin Kinnunen: She's amazing.

[24:06] Isabelle McCalla: Has that set in?

[24:08] Caitlin Kinnunen: No.

[24:09] Isabelle McCalla: You posted a really great picture today.

[24:10] Caitlin Kinnunen: I did.

[24:11] Caitlin Kinnunen: I posted an Instagram story, not story, post today of me just sobbing.

[24:15] Caitlin Kinnunen: Like the day she found out, the moment she found out.

[24:18] Isabelle McCalla: It's beautiful.

[24:18] Caitlin Kinnunen: I like to keep it real.

[24:19] Caitlin Kinnunen: So it's just a picture of me crying.

[24:21] Isabelle McCalla: So you started crying and then just selfied it while you were crying.

[24:24] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, because like this is like kind of a depression.

[24:27] Caitlin Kinnunen: So, we were just talking about how we met and how we became friends.

[24:57] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, it was really instant. I remember the first time we met, we were both in the audition room for The Prom.

[25:27] Caitlin Kinnunen: Right! And I just felt this connection with you immediately. It was like, "Oh, I like her."

[25:57] Isabelle McCalla: Same! And then we just started chatting and realized we had so much in common.

[26:27] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, and I think that really helped us build our characters, Emma and Alyssa, because we had this trust.

[26:57] Isabelle McCalla: Absolutely. It’s so important to have that bond, especially when you’re telling such a personal story.

[27:27] Caitlin Kinnunen: And we both have our own journeys with our identities, which makes it even more special.

[27:49] Isabelle McCalla: For sure. It’s like we’re not just playing roles; we’re sharing parts of ourselves.

[27:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: Exactly! And I think that’s what resonates with the audience too.

[28:27] Isabelle McCalla: Definitely. It’s all about authenticity, and I feel like we bring that to the stage.

[28:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: And the support from our families has been incredible. They really understand what we’re doing.

[29:27] Isabelle McCalla: Yes! My family has always been my biggest cheerleaders, and I know yours has too.

[29:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: They really have. It’s such a blessing to have that kind of support.

[30:27] Isabelle McCalla: And it’s important for us to advocate for mental health as well.

[30:42] Caitlin Kinnunen: Absolutely. We both have our own ways of dealing with stress and anxiety.

[30:46] Isabelle McCalla: Right, and it’s crucial to talk about it openly, especially in this industry.

[30:48] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes! I think it helps break down the stigma.

[30:50] Isabelle McCalla: For sure. We need to create a safe space for everyone.

[30:52] Caitlin Kinnunen: And that’s something we’re both passionate about.

[30:54] Isabelle McCalla: Definitely. It’s all about supporting each other.

[30:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: And I think that’s what makes our friendship so special.

[30:58] Isabelle McCalla: Agreed! We lift each other up, and that’s what it’s all about.

[31:00] Caitlin Kinnunen: I love that. It’s like we’re soulmates in a way.

[31:02] Isabelle McCalla: Yes! Soulmates in friendship and in this journey together.

[31:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: It’s a beautiful thing, really.

[31:06] Isabelle McCalla: I wouldn’t want to do this with anyone else.

[31:08] Caitlin Kinnunen: Same here! It’s just so much fun.

[31:10] Isabelle McCalla: And we get to share these experiences together.

[31:12] Caitlin Kinnunen: Exactly! It makes everything more meaningful.

[31:14] Isabelle McCalla: And I think that translates to our performances as well.

[31:16] Caitlin Kinnunen: For sure. The audience can feel that connection.

[31:18] Isabelle McCalla: They really can. It’s all about that energy exchange.

[31:20] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes! And it’s what keeps us going.

[31:22] Isabelle McCalla: Absolutely. We’re in this together.

[31:24] Caitlin Kinnunen: And I wouldn’t have it any other way.

[31:26] Isabelle McCalla: Me neither! Here’s to many more adventures together.

[31:28] Caitlin Kinnunen: Cheers to that!

[31:30] Isabelle McCalla: Let’s keep shining and supporting each other.

[31:32] Caitlin Kinnunen: Always!

[36:41] Caitlin Kinnunen: I will tell you this, um, I, I don't anticipate winning this Sunday, um, but like, I do have a list of people just in case who I will be thanking, and my therapist is on that list.

[39:47] Caitlin Kinnunen: 100%. So there's that. I think it should be like a celebration or that you have a safe space to go in and just let go of all the bullshit and just drop the facade and be like. My therapist said this to me the other day, which kind of blew my mind. And I'm still talking to everybody because I think it's so great. She, I was just talking about what I thought I was supposed to be talking about, like my days, what was happening. And she stopped me and she goes, you know, you don't have to entertain me, right?

[40:21] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[40:21] Caitlin Kinnunen: And that hit me like a ton of bricks. Yeah. And so since then, I've kind of been reexamining. It's like, even if you feel like you're being your most authentic self, there's always something else that maybe you're not in tune with that you need to, you know, keep working on. And I think having that, you know, other person, the mirror reflecting, you know, if you will, is really great to work through all the craziness.

[40:45] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[40:46] Caitlin Kinnunen: I'm glad she said that. That's very helpful just in general. I, it blew my mind. I will never forget that. I mean, just, she's amazing. My therapist, one of the things that she's told me that I am like so reliant on now is that she said I'm a baby adult in the way of like, in the way of like, I am an adult, but there's still so much to figure out, you know, like just because I'm a 27 year old woman who presents having her shit together doesn't mean that there is still so much more life ahead of me. And like, right now I'm focused so solely on like the now that it's like, oh, well, if this doesn't happen, it won't ever happen again. And she's like, no, you are a baby adult. You still have so much left of your adult life. Like, you're fine. It's really not as heavy as what your therapist said, but it's been very helpful to me.

[41:39] Isabelle McCalla: Well, because I think there's also easy to think that we have everything figured out and we get how this world works and we get our life works. And I kind of like being called out for my own shit to be like, there's a lot more you don't know than you do. And I think being open to that and like the more open I think, I think, I don't know. For me, life is easier to cope with when I am receptive to the idea that so much can happen that I have no control over.

[42:10] Caitlin Kinnunen: Well, again, it's luck.

[42:11] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, yeah.

[42:13] Caitlin Kinnunen: And it's also like not putting my entire worth into my job, right?

[42:17] Isabelle McCalla: How do you do that?

[42:19] Caitlin Kinnunen: I'm working on it. It's not easy, but it is a practice. It is. Yeah, that's something that I have to like meditate on and work on with myself because it doesn't come easy. It's not. I am trying not to make Alyssa Green in The Prom my everything. And that's very difficult, but it's the truth.

[42:42] Isabelle McCalla: Well, how much...

[42:42] Caitlin Kinnunen: That is so not where I'm at.

[42:48] Isabelle McCalla: You'll get there.

[42:49] Caitlin Kinnunen: I'm not there either. I'm just like, I know that's something I'll have to work on.

[42:51] Isabelle McCalla: You're at least like working towards it.

[42:57] Caitlin Kinnunen: Well, do you have a lot of anxiety in general?

[43:00] Isabelle McCalla: So much!

[43:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been struggling. I don't think struggling is the right word. I think I have been learning with anxiety and depression since I was 16. And it ebbs and flows. And sometimes I'm not anxious and I'm more depressed. Sometimes I am more anxious and less depressed. Sometimes I'm a lot of both right now. That time. But yeah, it's an ever-changing thing, a chemical imbalance in my brain that I'm totally cool with. But it's an interesting thing to deal with.

[43:44] Isabelle McCalla: Something that I realized about myself in the middle of talking with Patti Murin about her own struggles with anxiety was she said something that resonated with me really hard. And I'm going to butcher again this quote. But she said something about it's not about ignoring it or making it go away. It's about learning how to integrate it in your life and not let it control you.

[44:11] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. And adding to that, it is about integrating and learning to accept it and live with it and being okay with when you can't do that. I had an instance, I don't know, like a month ago now because I get panic attacks frequently. And they are something that I have learned to just not accept fully, but I've learned to be able to function through them. And right after the Tony nominations came out, it was a very stressful time. It still is. I had a panic attack right as the show was starting. And that's happened to me before where a panic attack has come on quickly during a show. And I've been able to breathe and work my way through it. And it's been great. But for this time, it started and I thought I was okay, thought I was okay, thought I was okay.

And then halfway through Act Two, I realized I am not okay and I cannot keep going and I need to stop. And so I called out one number into Act Two because I listened to my body and it said, you cannot do this right now. And that in itself is like accepting and living with it, you know, and figuring it out. Like, yeah, it just, it's an ever-changing thing that like living with it is important and learning how to accept it into your life. Because if you try to fight it, that you will never succeed ever. So you just kind of have to learn to accept it and say, okay, this is what's going on right now. I'm going to do my best to handle it. And we'll see what that means. And like that day, it meant that I needed to stop.

[45:54] Isabelle McCalla: What happens during the show? Did they stop the show?

[45:54] Caitlin Kinnunen: They did. They stopped the show and they switched me out with my understudy. And she's the most amazing human in the world. And she stepped in with like grace and poise that I did not have at that moment. And she killed it.

[46:09] Isabelle McCalla: Wow. Well, good. Yeah, good for both of you.

[46:15] Caitlin Kinnunen: Um, how much of, we talked about like, you have to put yourself into the roles and the audience has a hard time differentiating, but how much of the character is reflected back on you? How much do you walk away with? And are you two the same people now that you were before The Prom?

[46:28] Caitlin Kinnunen: Emma has taught me so much. I'm a much, I think it's hard to believe based on every self-deprecating thing I have said today, but I'm a much more confident human being because of Emma. Um, and I have a much easier time speaking my mind and standing up for myself and my own rights because of the way Emma stands up for herself in the show. And like, I was not that way four years ago at all.

[47:04] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[47:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: Um, I think for me, it's kind of the opposite in this sense that Alyssa is so much of who I was, um, that I know deeply what it feels like to need to be the best at everything and to succeed at everything and make sure that the people around you are happy, like a dog, like a dog that you just want to please everyone. You want to do your tricks, you get your treats and just, um, you lose sight of yourself. And I, for a long time, lost sight of who I was, uh, and what I actually wanted because I thought I had to be something in order for people to like me and I put my worth in other people and how they viewed me. So that was a huge shift wake up call for me that happened like three or four years ago.

Um, so in that sense, I, the show almost feels like regressing a little bit. So I need to find balance outside of it to make sure that I am the strong, confident person I am outside. And luckily Alyssa has a great arc where she does, you know, does come to terms with who she is and fights for her soul and the person she loves, despite the fact that it will hurt her mother. And that's something I'm learning too. Actually now I've been dealing with this in my life is this past year, my Mary Antonini, very smart woman. I was talking to her, um, about a relationship I was in and, um, I, I was just like, so brought up and like, I just, I just, I hate hurting people. I don't want to hurt anyone. And she, she said, that's a lovely sentiment, but like, you can't go through life without hurting people.

It's, you know, it's a fact of life that just happens. And that is something that I've been grappling with this year. And I think Alyssa grapples with too. Um, so I feel like we're kind of parallel like going side to side by side in that sense, like fighting our demons and fighting.

[48:54] Caitlin Kinnunen: Which even though the words are written on the page, if you know your co-stars, everybody else on stage is in the moment reacting, it's going to be different.

[49:24] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think it's a beautiful thing.

[49:28] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, you're talking about relationships. How do you identify?

[49:34] Isabelle McCalla: Figuring it out, over here.

[49:39] Caitlin Kinnunen: I have only ever been in relationships with men. However, I have had relations with women. So I guess I identify as a straight ally, but I'm open to—I have—it's very wishy. I just—I'm attracted to women. I'm attracted to men, but I've only ever been in relationships with men. Fluid, fluid, I guess.

[50:06] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. Yeah. And I had only ever—and then kind of similarly, I had only ever identified as a straight ally, had relations with women, and then recently had started dating a woman, and it was lovely. And so I'm in this boat of like, I don't identify as bi. I don't identify as straight. I don't identify as queer. I just am kind of—I think who was—who's talking about it? There was some BuzzFeed article or something I read. Anton from Antony.

[50:47] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes, from—I'm so behind on any pop culture references ever.

[50:52] Isabelle McCalla: He was talking about having dated women and men and how his sexuality is truly fluid, and that like really resonated with me that it's like, no, I don't—I don't need to identify as anything. I am a person who deals with what comes at me when it comes at me, and like whether or not I end up with a man or a woman or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's—it just is what it is. Fluidity.

[51:20] Caitlin Kinnunen: It's—yeah, reality is a spectrum, and I'm somewhere floating around right all of it.

[51:25] Isabelle McCalla: I agree with all of that. I think it's hard. Like I hesitate to claim the identity of, yeah, or you know, bisexual identity because I haven't had to face the oppression.

[51:36] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, that's so many of the gay culture—people in the gay culture have so interesting like this because it’s June and it is Pride Month, and all of these people who are like posting and talking about their pride and the struggles that they have faced, right, coming out. It's like I am a white straight-presenting woman. I have never had to go through any of that. I am very privileged for that. And so to identify as bi or queer, I feel like is a disservice in some way because I don't want to claim that I have struggled at all in this front. I've struggled with other things in my life, but never have I faced oppression based on my sexual preferences. And so I don't ever want people to assume that I have and then say that like I'm for claiming pride.

[52:28] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, and I think this is a conversation that we have constantly that you have us talk about because it is evolving and we are evolving in it, and you don't want to ruffle any feathers.

[52:40] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, and again, it comes back to like the platform that we are on in social media right now with your— all of those respect. Yeah, looking at us, and it's like I don't—I have never wanted to put words into the mouths of those LGBTQ+ people who come and see the show and feel seen by it. Like that has never been my intention, but I am trying to like figure out my own sexuality and again whether—and tell the story as truthfully and respectfully as we can in the parts that we have. And all of that being said, it also doesn't matter, you know? Like that's my—like love who you want to love. It doesn't matter as long as you are not hurting people. You're fine. So do what you want to do.

[53:27] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, love is love. Exactly, to quote the great Lin-Manuel.

[53:32] Alan Seales: All right, so we are going to wrap up here. And so my three standard questions that I ask everybody. Izzy, let's start with you. What motivates you?

[53:39] Isabelle McCalla: Oh God. Oh my—hmm. I want to say this is a sound so stupid, but it's my thirst for knowledge, like of things. I don't know, like I'm really curious.

[53:55] Caitlin Kinnunen: That's like so accurate.

[53:59] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, I know. It's like cheesy, but it's like actually coming from you. It's not cheesy at all.

[54:03] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. Okay. I'm glad that you were backing that up. Like I read a lot of books and I want to do a lot of traveling, and I like—I just—I want to keep learning about things.

[54:11] Isabelle McCalla: From an outsider's perspective, that is so your authentic self and what you present to the world.

[54:17] Caitlin Kinnunen: Thank you. And that's why I love acting because I'm stepping into shoes of people that I don't know, and I could get to figure that out through them.

[54:23] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, so that's—yeah. Yeah.

[54:26] Alan Seales: So I answer, I guess. Yeah, Caitlin, what about you?

[54:32] Caitlin Kinnunen: The face she's making right now just pressed up against the mic with a blank stare. She's had time to think about this too.

[54:39] Isabelle McCalla: I know, and it's just—it's not going well.

[54:46] Caitlin Kinnunen: I think right now and having in this show's journey, my whole outlook on life and everything is using my voice for good and doing things that make a difference in the world, whether it is small change or large change. That's what is like driving me forward right now. It's just trying to be a good person. It's hard sometimes, but I'm working on it.

[55:21] Isabelle McCalla: You got this. You got it. You got this.

[55:25] Alan Seales: All right. So Caitlin, we'll start with you for the second one here. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people now starting out down a similar path?

[55:33] Caitlin Kinnunen: Just keep going. It sounds really simple, but it's actually really hard. Just always put one foot in front of the other and don't give up and don't pay attention to what other people say. Keep going.

[55:45] Isabelle McCalla: I'm going to go back to don't compare yourself to other people. It's not worth it. It causes a lot more heartbreak and yeah, just focus on staying in your lane and what makes you you.

[56:00] Alan Seales: All right. And okay. So either of you can go first. I was last one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life—

[56:08] Isabelle McCalla: Oh no.

[56:12] Alan Seales: —but you can see it as many times as you want. A theater show?

[56:15] Caitlin Kinnunen: Any show.

[56:18] Isabelle McCalla: Like a TV show too?

[56:20] Caitlin Kinnunen: Any show. Any show. If you just like—this is your—

[56:23] Alan Seales: For the rest of my life.

[56:28] Caitlin Kinnunen: For the rest of your life. I was going to say personal hell, but if you want to see—

[56:32] Isabelle McCalla: Is it the only thing you can watch for the rest of your life?

[56:36] Caitlin Kinnunen: I know this. The Office. The American Office. All nine seasons are fine with me. I think it is an incredible ensemble cast with the best writing.

[56:41] Isabelle McCalla: And don't get in front of me because I've never looked so distraught in my life.

[56:46] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, and I think that's my go-to just because that is the show I go back to always when I want something in the background or feel like I need to pick me up because I think the cast is so diverse and the perspectives are so diverse and it's just so raw and funny and painful like life is. So The Office.

[57:10] Isabelle McCalla: I'm taking this question way too seriously.

[57:14] Caitlin Kinnunen: Chris Heber had an existential moment where he wanted to see The Prom over and over again, but with him in it knowing he could never do it.

[57:17] Isabelle McCalla: That's really creepy. He kind of like—I saw the springs and the smoke start coming out of his ears.

[57:23] Caitlin Kinnunen: Um, damn it. Um, I know this is bad. Um, I just want to like let you get through the whole song.

[57:32] Isabelle McCalla: It's Jeopardy. You should watch Jeopardy.

[57:35] Caitlin Kinnunen: My roommate would. My roommate 100% would pick Jeopardy. Watching her watch Jeopardy is the best thing in the world.

[57:41] Isabelle McCalla: I would watch—can it be like a general statement? I would just watch like really crappy reality TV for the rest of my life. Like The Hills or like Bachelor.

[57:56] Caitlin Kinnunen: No, no, no. Like I'm talking like Botched and like Naked and Afraid.

[58:00] Alan Seales: Oh my God. You two are in now almost 40 episodes.

[58:06] Caitlin Kinnunen: The only two have never picked a theater show.

[58:09] Isabelle McCalla: Really?

[58:12] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah. Oh, if I picked a theater show, it would be Phantom of the Opera.

[58:14] Isabelle McCalla: Oh my God. Mm-hmm. I'm obsessed with it.

[58:18] Caitlin Kinnunen: I don't understand how anyone can sing that high.

[58:21] Isabelle McCalla: Say the words and I will follow you.

[58:35] Caitlin Kinnunen: We're professionals, guys.

[58:37] Isabelle McCalla: Tony award nominee.

[58:41] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, baby. That's my favorite thing to say now whenever I like pick a wedgie or like fart or like any like bodily function. Like Tony award nominee. Picking my wedgie.

[58:52] Isabelle McCalla: Well, that title will never leave you.

[58:55] Caitlin Kinnunen: You are always going to be Tony nominee, Caitlin Kinnunen.

[58:57] Isabelle McCalla: It's pretty cool. Picking your wedgie.

[58:59] Caitlin Kinnunen: Picking your wedgie, burping, and farting.

[59:01] Alan Seales: So anyway, bye. Izzy, where can we find you on the socials?

[59:07] Isabelle McCalla: You can follow me at Izzy McCalla, I-z-z-y-m-c-c-a-l-l-a on Instagram. I don't tweet. But Instagram, I will be there. Facebook? No.

[59:18] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, kids these days aren't into the Facebook.

[59:20] Isabelle McCalla: No, I kind of deleted mine because it was giving me anxiety.

[59:24] Caitlin Kinnunen: It was. See, and I—Facebook was giving me anxiety, but instead of deleting it, I just moved it further away on my phone.

[59:32] Isabelle McCalla: So it's harder to get to. You have to do two swipes instead of one.

[59:35] Caitlin Kinnunen: I have to do three swipes, open a folder, and then click on Facebook to get to Facebook. It hasn't stopped me from using it at all, but that was what my therapist and I came up with.

[59:41] Isabelle McCalla: It's a good compromise.

[59:44] Alan Seales: All right. Where can we find you?

[59:51] Caitlin Kinnunen: You can find me on Instagram at Caitlin.Kinnunen, c-a-i-t-l-i-n.k-i-n-n-u-n-e-n. That's me. And that's the only place that I publicly say anything. I have Facebook and Twitter, but they are private so I can stalk people.

[1:00:04] Alan Seales: The private. All right. You can get more of me at thetheaterpodcast.com, theater underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter, Facebook slash theater, blah, blah, blah. Facebook slash official theater podcast. What a fiddle of a podcast. Of course, leave a rating if you're listening on a player right now. It helps. This is produced by Jillian Hockman, edited by Matthew Hendershot, and thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. Caitlin and Izzy, this has been so much fun.

[1:00:36] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. I appreciate it. This is great. Always.

[1:00:39] Caitlin Kinnunen: Always. Yeah, yeah. Always. Always.

[1:00:43] Alan Seales: Stop it, that's the last. ASMR outro.

[1:00:48] Caitlin Kinnunen: No.

[1:00:51] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, baby, baby, baby.

[1:00:55] Caitlin Kinnunen: I don't condone any of it.

[1:00:59] Alan Seales: Deep breath, make the world a little colorful.