This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:30] Alan Seales: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Theatre Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and this episode is a deeply insightful, open, and creatively rich conversation with collaborative artists, Lindsey Kraft and Ben Folds. They are currently bringing the new musical, We've Been Here Before, to the stage at Soho Playhouse, and this chat goes far beyond the standard process talk to explore the real psychology of making art. We dive into Ben's belief that 99% of creative work fails a fundamental pass-fail test, which is whether a piece actually needs to exist in the world out of sheer necessity. He shares a fascinating perspective on imposter syndrome, explaining why he views it not as an act of humility, but as an unfair, emotional burden artists place on their audience.

Plus, Lindsey opens up about picking up the piano at 39 and discovering that music could uncover truths about her life long before words could. And we also unpack how Ben approaches narrative orchestration, treating individual instruments like live dramatic characters on stage. It's a grounded, insightful, and masterclass level look at vulnerability, creative risk, and what it truly takes to bring honest work to light. So make sure to do what you always do, follow me online, spread the word, tell your friends. If you want to watch the video version of this, check Spotify or Patreon. And now, everybody, please enjoy this episode with Lindsey Kraft and Ben Folds. Here you go.

[1:57] Alan Seales: Today's guests are collaborative artists currently bringing the new musical We've Been Here Before to the stage at Soho Playhouse. Lindsey Kraft is an actor, writer, and composer known for her roles on television in Grace and Frankie, Getting On, and The Big Bang Theory, as well as her playwriting work on Wedding Bash. Ben Folds is an acclaimed singer, songwriter, producer, author, and former frontman of Ben Folds Five, who has composed for film, television, and major orchestras around the world. On their current project, We've Been Here Before, Lindsey serves as writer and star, with Ben producing, music directing, and performing on stage. Lindsey and Ben, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:42] Lindsey Kraft: Thank you for having us.

[2:43] Ben Folds: Thank you for inviting me into your space today.

[2:48] Alan Seales: And I guess we'll get started with... I want to dive straight into We've Been Here Before, because I just saw it 48 hours ago. I guess for those listening, let's see. So I saw you, Lindsey, two days ago. Ben, I saw you seven years ago. And I'll put the link to our first interview in the show notes. And that was a hell of a lot of fun. So the project, tell us about it. Lindsey, did you start to write this on your own? And where did it become a tangible idea that needed to be on stage?

[3:13] Lindsey Kraft: I started writing it when I first started writing music, which was 2019. So I think I was 39, approaching 40. And I just started kind of hearing songs in my head. And I had written a sort of a monologue about my life a little bit, and a story. And I had one song at the end, but just because it was part of the show. It was just part of the... And I performed it for some girlfriends in my best friend's living room. And there was a feeling of like, there's something here. I don't know, there was a collective kind of sigh. And I felt like I was talking about something so specific, but it felt pretty universal as I was speaking. And one of my girlfriends said at the very end, she said, it would be great if you had more songs.

I was like, well, I don't write songs. And she goes, well, you wrote that one. I said, yeah, that's true. But no, I don't really know what I'm doing. And then the pandemic happened. And it just gave me the time to just explore. And yeah, that's kind of the beginnings of it.

[4:20] Alan Seales: Well, so the need to write the story, though. I always wonder, and Ben, it's a question for you too, of just where you both come from in your writing inspiration. And I know it's a cliché of like, well, it inspires you to write. But what do you feel the need to have to write about? And so why did this turn into your show? And for you, on the music side, you know?

[4:37] Ben Folds: Well, for me, it was like, to me, the musical wrote me. I wasn't intending on, oh, I want to write a musical that never even remotely crossed my mind. But I started to have to get these songs out so that I mean, there's a line in the show that says, the songs knew the truth before I did. And that is so true for me because I was just writing what I had to express. And I didn't think that I could get it out through just words. It was like there were melodies behind what I was feeling. And that led me to be at the piano 10 to 12 hours a day, just kind of like in a trance of hitting the same.

[5:20] Alan Seales: But you've only played piano for five years, is that right?

[5:23] Ben Folds: So okay, so you're playing, you're plunking this out, teaching yourself while you're writing.

[5:26] Lindsey Kraft: Yes.

[5:27] Alan Seales: Okay.

[5:28] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, I know it's pretty crazy. But to me, it just felt so normal. I was like, and it wasn't like it just happened overnight. I was working so hard and just then taking, I was on YouTube, just wormholes of just learning chords and different things. And then I started taking piano lessons, as many as I could afford, and composing lessons, and piano lessons, and voice lessons, and just trying to get what was in my heart and my soul into something that was reality. And when did you know that you truly had something that needed to be, that was, yeah, that needed to be on stage or that could be on stage? Because I have lots of ideas that keep me up at night too. But none of them are good enough to put in front of somebody else.

[6:09] Lindsey Kraft: Well, I just kind of was just pretty brave about it from the beginning. I would perform at any airport piano that I saw, any hotel piano. And I would just perform doing Instagram Lives. And people were responding to it. And I was like, and I wasn't very good. I was just expressing myself. And I just wanted to keep sharing what I was writing. And people were just responding to it. So I just kind of just kept following that sparkle.

[6:39] Alan Seales: That's interesting. And so obviously, Ben, you responded to what she was writing because you agreed to get involved with this.

[6:42] Ben Folds: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's while it's, there's plenty of stuff out there. I don't know if plenty, but we all know of really good pieces, really good songs that they don't have to be out there, that they are good. And I think especially in a longer career, you'll see an arc of someone, let's just look at Johnny Cash, like probably years and years of stuff that he didn't need to do, still good. People didn't need to hear they loved him and one out of however much. But over the course of a long time and looking at a large body of work, you see or hear the rare piece that had to be made. And so I think that all of us who have been someone who's been making songs for a long time really appreciates that nugget.

So you're like, oh, this has to be made. This is a story that has to be told. And I think in this era, people are people, not artists. Punters, your average person, is more and more responsive to a piece that needs to be made, maybe because there is something in the air that tells us that things may not be good in a while. The world may not be the safest place to be. And you may not have complete freedom of expression, freedom of speech. It feels a little like friends of mine who grew up in Eastern Europe, USSR feeling. And if you notice, their art was always stuff that was because of a need to survive. So this is a long way of saying that my interest in it was that you get only one or two opportunities of these things in your career to have a part of.

And while I'm selling this thing, I'm going to say it doesn't mean it's the best thing in the world. It means that it's better than that. It's the most valid. The best thing in the world, maybe, I don't know, we went and saw the vampire thing. The Lost Boys. Amazing. It was like, blew everyone's socks off. Did that piece need to be made? Hell no. That's the point of it. And we all love that. Is it better than anything that I've done? Probably. I mean, I don't know if you're measuring it. It's certainly louder. But the point becomes, after a while, the best thing in the world that's made on another plane is a pass-fail thing. And 99% of art fails it. Which is, does this have to be made? Is this expressing something necessary?

And it's not sensational. It's not loud. There's no vampires. There's not a lot of dancing. And it goes under the radar. And you see that in literature. And you see that in music. And you see Led Zeppelin songs that couldn't get played on the radio. And they just keep going, keep going, keep going. So I'm gonna say that she's got that Led Zeppelin shit going. But no, it's a thing that needed to be there. That's a really long answer. But that's pretty much all I ever really want to say about this.

[10:01] Alan Seales: That's interesting. So, Lindsey, have you heard that before? In the way that he said that, how does it make you feel to know that your story, right? I assume this is semi-autobiographical.

[10:12] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, I mean, I think the things that are true in it are the feelings that I've had that have been sort of stuck in cycles. So there's some fictionalized moments and characters that are amalgamations of people in my life. But it makes me feel almost relaxed when he says that because it feels like, oh wow, he gets what I'm trying, what I'm feeling inside that is really difficult for me to articulate. When people ask me what the show is about, I'm like, do you have an hour and a half? Because I'd have to—

[10:43] Alan Seales: That's how long it takes to explain it.

[10:44] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, because it's like, you know, and so there are certain log lines that you can say that are in the show, but it is an experience to be had is what I feel. And each night when the audience comes in, I feel so connected to the audience. And I'm looking, especially at the Soho Playhouse, I'm looking directly in people's eyes and there's people who I invite into the show in a way. It's not like super involved in audience participation. They don't have to do anything. They just have to just sort of be there with me. I think Rodrigo was the front row when I was there too.

[11:03] Alan Seales: Angelo.

[11:19] Lindsey Kraft: Oh, Angelo, that's what I was, yeah. I remember, I'm not joking. Did Angelo bring a raincoat? Because that's necessary on the front row.

[11:24] Ben Folds: Oh, yeah. I, when I've been opening for Ben all over the country and Australia, I also meet someone in the audience and I remember these people. Like, they're significant and after the show, they write me, they remember it and it's an experience for them that I feel like is special and it's, you know, sometimes people scream out, that's my husband. I'm like, great, come on, come on the date too. You know, I mean, who cares? It's theater and.

[12:13] Lindsey Kraft: My favorite was one night. So it was, he's gay and she goes, yes, but this play takes place before he came out of the closet.

[12:24] Ben Folds: Before he came out of the closet.

[12:25] Lindsey Kraft: No, he said, I'm gay.

[12:29] Ben Folds: This is before you came out of the closet.

[12:31] Lindsey Kraft: Before he came out of the closet.

[12:32] Alan Seales: Oh, okay.

[12:34] Lindsey Kraft: So funny. Yeah, no, I love that, you know, it's telling the story and it's, you know, it's a memory play. It's a fictional memory play that skirts the line of semi, being semi-autobiographical.

[12:41] Alan Seales: That's what I was getting the feeling about. But then like, you break the fourth wall quite often, especially when I feel like there will be people who don't know where that line is of like when to stop talking. They don't get that they're not in on the joke.

[12:42] Lindsey Kraft: But it's okay. My background is improv, so that excites me. When someone really wants to be an actor, it's hard because then they start really talking to you and they think that they're playing a character. I just want people just to be themselves because I feel like this is real. It's tough because sometimes you're looking at people and you maintain eye contact and you're talking to them. As an audience member, I'm like, does she want me to respond or should I? I guess I'll just nod and give a big smile. Luckily, you talked to the guy in front of me and not me, so I didn't have to worry about that specifically. I was spared from the humiliation of acting like myself. But yeah, that's interesting. Ben, you're up on stage too. You're leading the band, a band of three, back at home. What made you want to be a part of it in that capacity too? Because you could have just produced, you could have just musically arranged.

[13:37] Ben Folds: Yeah. It was very much a one thing led to another sort of vibe. It's like, first of all, I'm helping her with making sure the songs had a little bit of form. In general, that's what she did for herself. But sometimes, if you haven't written 100 songs, you might not realize there are things to help with. Then I was helping her out on tour with things to do with her piano playing and listen to a monitor and mic technique and all kinds of stuff. As she started wanting to put on the stages, I'm like, well, I can help you out by backing you up. Then it's like, we're going to need another guy. It's like, I think we're going to need another guy and another girl now. It's just sort of escalated. I love arranging, and so I've enjoyed arranging this for three people to sound like seven.

That's the idea. But ultimately, you know, right now I've scored the violin to be sort of a character for her. The violin is, in my mind, the arrangement is all what the music is about at this point in the background in that it's supposed to almost get to the top of the hill and then fall back down the hill again. The whole time that violin is aspiring is always hitting on major sevenths, is always hitting right at places that are unusual to be the ultimate. So everything's penultimate. But ultimately, I think that her dream of it is exactly right, which is it's probably a female-based string quartet with a little percussion, possibly. But what we've really learned during this is that normally, gosh, I'm not going to get into string quartet arrangement.

It won't be a normal string quartet arrangement. It will be a duet partner, which is the violin, or possibly sometimes a male tenor, which would be the cello. And otherwise, it'll be a barbershop trio plus that character. So I'm not going to write it like traditional string quartet stuff.

[15:07] Ben Folds: And I know that you've been asked to be involved with the Broadway scene for years. And I think when we talked about it back in 2019, I asked you about it, and you had said that you just hadn't found the right thing yet or whatnot.

[15:59] Lindsey Kraft: I did. Look, this is it.

[16:00] Ben Folds: Yeah, this is it. Because this is grassroots, which is something that I understand. My band, we started out playing small clubs, and I think most bands do, at least from my era. And starting at the top has always been like, what is this? I mean, you've got everything to work with. You've got everything to lose. And there's so many moving parts. Well, who are these parts? I didn't choose these parts. And although, the whole thing is it comes down to being relaxed about it. And for me being relaxed about it, I'm finding is learning things inside out from the script. Now I'm learning from the script. I've had the script in front of me for the two years of its development. And now I'm a little less intimidated by going into that stuff.

And I also worked on Charlie Brown for Peanut Stuff for Apple Plus. I've done some movies and musical things. I'm now feeling like I could jump in where we were talking in 2019. But it has to feel like this. It has to feel like Lindsey's work, which is immediate, has to be done. It's not meeting-based. And nothing that gets the big stuff, because I would be thrilled to be part of that. Some of the greatest talent in the world are in these moving parts of this stuff. I just have to kind of know where I'm landing. I think of these Faces of Death videos from the 90s where I'm in a parachute and thinking I'm going to live and then I go into a crocodile's den. I find it scary. I don't want to be like that.

[17:34] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, I remember those videos. It was the birth of the internet when everything was more Wilder West than it is.

[17:39] Ben Folds: What is the one that the guy lands? It's like he thinks he's parachuted and he's going to land. And he lands exactly in a crocodile pit. Or an alligator pit. I don't know who has an alligator pit, but someone had one.

[17:50] Lindsey Kraft: Someone in Florida.

[17:51] Ben Folds: He landed in one, yeah.

[17:52] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, someone in Florida. Near Mar-a-Lago somewhere.

[17:55] Ben Folds: Yeah. Lindsey, your acting career as well, you've done so much on screen now. You said you started out at improv, but did you do a bunch of things that were on stage beforehand and whatnot?

[18:09] Lindsey Kraft: I mean, no. When I was in high school, I had a brief stint modeling. That was sort of my foray into acting because I was sort of discovered on Long Island and I would just go into New York City by myself, take the train and my dad would meet me at Penn Station at McDonald's and we'd go on my appointments or I'd pick up my mom teaching in Queens and then we'd drive in for one appointment. They'd look through my book and nod and then I'd leave and we'd drive like two hours home in traffic. And my mom would ask me like 100 questions about what happened and I'd be like, I don't know. When I knew that they didn't like me at all. So I just had this huge life of just rejection early on in my life. And then that led to acting in a way.

I mean, I went to University of Maryland, didn't study any of those things. I just never thought that I could have a life in the creative arts. There wasn't anyone in my family who did that and it just didn't seem like an option that was feasible. I played sports in high school. I think people thought it was more feasible that I would get somehow play basketball for college, but I suddenly just got bad in 10th grade. No, no, seriously. No, no, I bring this. When I was in junior high school, I was on CYO team for my school and there was this girl that they kept on talking about. And I was the best one on my team, like from Jericho. And we get to the game and they're like, they're talking about this girl.

And it was one on man to man and I was guarding her. I was like, she destroyed me. And I said, and I afterwards, I said, I will never, ever be as good as that girl. And I stopped playing after that because I was like, what's the point? I'm like, turns out she's the best person in the world at basketball. But I know this is like a very long winded question. You were asking me something else, but I then I started acting. I went to college and I graduated.

[20:16] Ben Folds: You asked about Sue Bird. I remember.

[20:17] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, I was definitely only about Sue Bird. I started acting post-college. I kind of had beginner's luck. I moved to New York City and I booked an episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit.

[20:31] Ben Folds: Well, yeah, you got to write a passage.

[20:34] Lindsey Kraft: Write a passage here in New York, yeah. And then booked The Sopranos and Third Watch. They're all just the New York shows. And then I moved to LA. And at that time, when I first started, I was just doing dramas. I wasn't doing, I didn't know even what a comedic performance would look like. But I found that the things that I was booking were kind of parts that were seemingly funny or that I would maybe get because I improvised something. I didn't even know what improvising meant. I just was like, oh, maybe if I just make up, change this line a little bit, it could be fun. And then moved to LA and I just kind of started, I just got lucky. I mean, I just started working and I was in acting class and worked a little bit more each year.

And then I booked a couple of series and pilots that never got picked up. And then Grace and Frankie and then just guest starred and hopped around. People would be like, you're so familiar. Did like, I see you at CVS yesterday or like, were you in my yoga class? So there's like a sense that I'm like, no, I'm just probably like in your living room, like, you know, just on some random show. I'm not famous, but you just recognize my face and my voice. And then I actually had one acting job where I, on a show called Southland, I don't know. Yeah, it was like a cop show, but really gritty. And I played Benjamin McKenzie's girlfriend from high school, who's a singer-songwriter. And when I went on the audition, I sang and I knew that they liked me and they were like, can you play the piano?

I was like, no. And they were like, I was like, but I can play the guitar. I had never picked up a guitar in my whole life, but I just assumed in my head that it would be easier to play the guitar. So I had like, I had five lessons in like three days and I learned how to play. I was like, can I do So Far Away? They asked me what song I wanted to sing. They asked me if I had any originals. And I felt like such an imposter because I was thinking I have so many friends who are songwriters and like, why didn't they get this part? And I just I actually just kind of like made something up, like on the spot and I worked on it. And I just kind of like I was terrible at guitar, but I learned a little bit just to film the thing. And that kind of like spurred something in my brain that I was like, well, maybe why can't I do this? But then like 10 years passed and I was like, you know, I just never thought about it again.

[23:03] Ben Folds: On set, were they ever like, wait a second? You can't strum very well.

[23:03] Lindsey Kraft: No, if you watch the episode, they I'm not strumming. I'm literally holding this and it looks so stupid. But it was just like a club scene. It looks really beautiful, like the light is shining. And but I remember thinking about being on that stage and feeling like, wow, this feels so good to just feel even pretending doing this. And then it wasn't until like, you know, 20 years later that no, not that's maybe too many years, 15 years later that I started really learning. That's crazy. And then so picking up the piano, why did you pick that up? Just because to put these songs down for I just I mean, I always loved the piano. We had a piano growing up, but and I would play this one song over and over again that I just made up that I heard in my head.

And it's very similar to the song Cardboard Boxes. It has the same this is the last song on the show that my original song was in the key of C, which I did not know at the time. I just like just knew what it looked like. I think that's an easy key. I don't know piano. Yeah, I mean, it's like just the basic one, I guess. And then I just kind of moved into a G and I was doing the same thing that I had done in that song that I heard it in my head for a million years. And then sort of landed on I made a mistake because I was at a different key. And I was like, oh, that's better. And yeah, I just feel like the piano is so beautiful. And it's so just like right in front of you. And it's just like, you're like, it's just exciting.

Because you could just with guitar, you have to like, hold things down and like, strum and it hurts your fingers. But the piano, it's like all right there. And you're just like, Oh, if I press that, it sounds like that. Like there's nothing, there's no secrets. You know what I mean?

[25:05] Ben Folds: No, no, I think it's easier to get somewhere quicker on the piano.

[25:24] Lindsey Kraft: That's a very silly answer you gave them. The reason I started taking piano lessons was because I was cast in a play where I had to learn how to play a song on the piano. That's why I learned tap. They were like, can you tap? I was like, yes. Yes, I can. And so I found a piano teacher through a friend and I started going to her. I ended up dropping out of the play because I booked a TV show. But I continued going. Anytime I was going to her, we were supposed to be working on the piece for the play and I'd be like, I'm hearing this other thing in my head. And she said, give me your notebook. She's like, you're writing songs. And I was like, no, I'm not. She's like, here's a table of contents.

Here's Sam I Am. Here's For Greta. Here's Live a Little. You're writing these songs. And I was like, no. And then she would sort of just tell me, maybe come up with an arpeggio for that song. And I was like, I can't. She's like, yeah, you can. She was just the most amazing. Her name is Lori. She goes by Lori Xavier and has a website called louderLA.com. And it's all about intuitive learning. She won't call it that. But for me, she was picking up on how I was learning because I didn't understand certain things. Interesting.

[26:39] Alan Seales: That's just called a good teacher.

[26:40] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. So she would just be like, we kind of did it backwards. It was like I was showing her what I was playing and then she would show me what that was. And then she's like, you don't need to know what it is. It's fine. And what about, I mean, we're getting kind of in the weeds of this and I love it. Did you learn the theory and reading music at the same time? Because I can repeat and mimic and be like, oh, okay, so I can do this because I heard it. But then if you put a piece of paper in front of me with music notes on it, I'm like, okay, every good boy does a D. Okay, D, but is that a sharp or is it a flat? I'm like doing that for every single note and I just can't get past that.

[27:15] Ben Folds: Yeah, no, I couldn't get past that. So I can't really, I just don't care about sheet music. I'm just not, I'm like, unless I have to do it, what I, I was almost like learning both things at the same time. And then I would be like, oh, that's just like an inversion of an A with a D on the bottom. Oh my God. And when I would first play it, I'd be like, I'm a genius. I'm like, that's the best sound I ever heard. And I just didn't, and it was so exciting. Every new chord I played, I just was amazed. I was like, I couldn't believe that you could play two keys next to each other and it would sort of just be this kind of jazzy type thing. The dissonance.

[27:52] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, the dissonance. And I was just like, it literally made my whole body just go into like, have the chills. Because I just, you sometimes can't believe that it's you who's pressing those keys. And that suddenly it's like, and then it's sort of informing what the song is going to be or like how I feel. And then it's almost like it's total coincidence sometimes. How a song comes to fruition. It's so weird.

[28:17] Ben Folds: Do either of you still deal with imposter syndrome? Or are you just like, all right, yeah, I'm going to get up here and then kick a stool off the stage and play standing up like a badass? Because that's been.

[28:26] Lindsey Kraft: Well, I understand it. But I don't think imposter syndrome is a product of humility. I think it's the opposite. And I think that you just, no one knows what they're doing. So, every one thing you learn with, anytime you work with someone who you've admired from afar, you might have grown up with their music. And anytime I've ever done that, I see a complete hack before me working. And it's really great. And that's the condition that we're all existing in. So, burdening everyone with, oh, I'm not worth you being here. It's like, people listen to music, immerse themselves in any kind of art. They don't have to take care of you. So, the imposter stuff is really kind of burdensome. It's like going to an award show and saying, I'm not going to take the award.

It's like, everyone has to sit through that shit. Don't show up. I don't show up to those things. Don't give a shit. And I'm not going to, but if someone gave me an award and I decided to go, I would go, I had the filet mignon and the drink and dress up. And I'd say, yeah, thanks. I'm great.

[29:37] Lindsey Kraft: You watch someone like Muhammad Ali. He was one of the most amazing things about him. This man walked down the street with all these people walking behind him like he was Jesus or something. He didn't burden them with like, I'm not who you think I am. You'll hate me once you know me. All that crap. He's just like, yeah, follow me. That's awesome. You're fine. We're all good. Like, you got to take care of people. I think the imposter syndrome is like, you know, just, first of all, you got to understand you're not special. We're all hacks. We're all imposters. You're supposed to be generous. You're doing the world a great favor by staying there, you know, acting as an imposter, making shit up. That's an imposter. You make an art, you're making shit up. You're an imposter.

[30:23] Lindsey Kraft: I love that answer. No, I think that's, that's, that's really good.

[30:28] Ben Folds: But I'm not worthy. I just want to say, I think a lot of, I think for me growing up, I think you always think that you can just kind of do one thing. And I believe strongly that you don't need to learn all the things to make something good.

[30:42] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Yeah. You and I are the same age, Lindsay. And like, we were taught, we come from the parents who had one job their entire career. You do your 30 years, you get a gold thing for your desk and they send you home with an engraved pen and then you retire. But now like everything's completely different and changed and social media, good or bad, it's changed everything because now you can be discovered and put your talent out there and people are making things. Or you can make a four minute thing that becomes the only thing that anyone ever knows about you. Right. This is kind of interesting.

[31:25] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Our director, co-director, Michelle Ross, who's amazing. She was saying that this show feels like the antithesis of AI.

[31:32] Ben Folds: Huh.

[31:33] Lindsey Kraft: And I like that because it's like, it's such a lived experience when you're there. And it's, there were no shortcuts for this. Right. For reflecting on your life and just the universal experience of, I think, not thinking you're enough. Right. Wanting to, that it's not too late to change. Never too late to change. Or to grow and discover new things about yourself and reflect on why you keep repeating the same patterns if they're causing you pain.

[32:09] Ben Folds: Yeah.

[32:10] Lindsey Kraft: And so that's what I love most about sharing the show is that people are reflecting on their own lives and it's never post opening for him because that's what I'm used to meeting people after that. It's never like, oh, I love this song or I love this story. It's like, they want to tell me about their story with their father who's an addict or the father who is an addict who wants to go home to his girls and be a better dad or someone who wants to get out of a toxic relationship or end a toxic friendship or change careers, learn something new at 60. That's the most exciting part about this whole journey for me.

[32:47] Ben Folds: That's interesting you brought that up because I hear that so many times from people and the top of the top of their game here in New York on Broadway. And I say that Broadway is the Olympics of theater. It's just the best of the best in this skill set. And people tell me all the time that they're getting stopped at the stage door and these people didn't even write the songs. They didn't even create the characters. Sometimes they could originate the character, but they didn't write it. They didn't write the music. They got hired to get put into a job, but they get told the way that they're conveying it, the way that they're presenting it is personal. So it works and it lands with the audience.

And then the people come up to them and they share their own stories of dealing with death in the case of Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice was this crazy movement with the audience just like getting over love and loss, especially like losing a parent, that kind of thing. But then people would come up and just...

[34:05] Lindsey Kraft: If it is something deep that talks about addiction and talks about loss or talks about trauma and some sort, then people, the strangers just pour their heart out to these paid professionals at the stage door. And I bring this up because what you were saying a second ago is like the songs you're writing and people are coming up to you after a music concert and telling you the same thing that I can see that evident in what this show is doing too with the songs. It's telling a deep story and it's connecting with people in a way that has to be told. Ben, back to your point, this needs to be made right now and it needs to be out there. And I love that, Lindsay, you said it's the antithesis of AI because-

[34:30] Ben Folds: Well, that was Michelle Ross.

[34:32] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, but-

[34:33] Ben Folds: Well, I brought it up.

[34:34] Lindsey Kraft: What were you going to say?

[34:34] Ben Folds: It's like, I guess, anatomically modern human beings at first, at the end of the day, tribe, clan, getting together and debriefing through stories and through whether it was drums or singing or whatever. It's the method by which we all try to figure out what the hell just happened. And so someone with the gift of being able to encapsulate that, that's their job to do that while someone else's gift and job is to do something else. So we've made it so state-of-the-art as we progress as a species and it's so commercialized and it's understandable that it is that a lot of it is on steroids, the entertainment part of it. It's kind of like the flavor's there, the nutrition may not always be there, but when the point is there, when it's actually communicating like it's supposed to, people forget the trapeze part and the explosions and all that stuff. They forget that and they just remember their experience.

[35:43] Lindsey Kraft: So that can be achieved at the Soho Playhouse for a couple hundred people, or that can be achieved at a much fancier place or at my shows on tour. But to kind of go back to the theme again, that when someone tells you their life experience and they're almost not even aware that you just did a thing that required craft, that's awesome. Almost anything you can do in the arts that doesn't show the seams. Something draws people in like, wow, that's colorful, the peacock part of it. Wow, he plays piano fast or there's something going on. But that's not what they come back for the next time. That's not what they remember. It's just part of the calling card of sorts.

[36:33] Ben Folds: It's an emotional connection.

[36:35] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. There's the talent that people come to see and that's necessary. But at the end of the day, the biggest thing that you can do for someone is make them forget all that. And that's so I know what I love to see. Of course, it's the Olympics, Broadway Theater Olympics, and you're seeing people, hearing people sing things that are next to impossible to achieve. They're just amazing. But that's just so it can reach enough people, bring enough people in, tickets, all that stuff. I mean, what really drilled it into their head was, did that person mean it? They got hired.

[37:13] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah.

[37:14] Ben Folds: They got hired and they brought it to the stage and they went home and they clocked out, but they meant it when they did it, even if they didn't. So all those things come together with all those moving parts in something like Broadway. It's amazingly powerful, but it's disappointingly not any more powerful than what someone can do in a one person show. It just doesn't have the motors and the pulleys and the trapeze and the lights and stuff like that.

[37:40] Lindsey Kraft: I enjoy being in that version of it to begin with, to check myself to make sure I'm doing it for all the right reasons.

[37:46] Ben Folds: Well, that's beautiful.

[37:48] Lindsey Kraft: I think about what excites me is imagining other actresses playing the role and just experiencing and getting to having to learn how to play the piano for the job and seeing it from another person's point of view in a way.

[38:05] Lindsey Kraft: I can't wait to, you know, that is my hope for it, that it, it just goes on forever.

[38:11] Ben Folds: And you're going to abuse them all, like, learn to play piano. I learned to do it in four years.

[38:15] Lindsey Kraft: Get down on your knees.

[38:17] Ben Folds: Well, I think it would just be such a, like, I think most singers are, they have musicianship in them, so they'd be able to do it. It would just give them the impetus to learn and they'd feel great about it. And so it would be a really loving, I'm like, my, my voice teacher and piano coach, Doug Peck, who's amazing. He's like, I'm just imagining there being like the camp of learning how to be live, like, as I, you know, because there's like the Dear Evan Hansen, you know, and so this is my dream, you know, this is what I think about.

[38:50] Lindsey Kraft: Now, everybody too can relate to, I think, being in some sort of really shitty relationship.

[38:56] Ben Folds: Yeah.

[38:56] Lindsey Kraft: Or some, you know, like in hindsight, everyone's got that boyfriend or girlfriend or partner who's just been like, why didn't I leave them 10 years ago, five years ago, two years ago? And because when you're in the middle of it, you don't see it. And, you know, Ben, to your point where you're saying about, you know, you're letting people forget, and I think it gives them perspective. That's what good art does. Good art, full stop, regardless of what it's doing. It's making them experience something they wouldn't otherwise experience and forgetting the routine of where they're stuck.

[39:25] Lindsey Kraft: What art and your life have in common is that you don't want to really, your conscious doesn't really want to dwell on what's wrong. You've got to want to get on with it. So if you've made a song and we were talking about this the other night with some friends and you're hearing it come from the speakers and you're convincing yourself it's right, but your body knows it's wrong. Like you're tensing up or there's something wrong. People are in relationships, it's the same way. It's like, you may not be conscious of it, but, you know, I think one thing, I guess this is something you can brag about. She's had a lot of people say they've gotten themselves out of relationships having seen this piece.

So while a lot of people are like, you know, like the Barry White school of like, these children were, all this whole generation was inspired, you know, was conceived to Barry White music. This could be like kind of a whole new birth control kind of theater where people are getting out of relationships at the end of the show.

[40:23] Ben Folds: Where they're finding, how about the positive spin?

[40:25] Lindsey Kraft: Instead of bringing people together, it's like.

[40:27] Ben Folds: Yeah, the positive spin is that they're freeing themselves up to find who they really should be with.

[40:32] Lindsey Kraft: Precisely, yeah, because we don't have a lot of time.

[40:34] Ben Folds: Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after this break.

[40:39] Lindsey Kraft: Welcome back to the episode.

[40:41] Ben Folds: I tapped into a real cliché that I would have never thought I would have embraced as part of the score, which is a constant tick tock, constant clock. And it's like, if I could think of like one or two things I would never do, that would be one of them. But like you start to realize so much of this is about, God, we're all sitting here with a really short life and you better get on with it. Like you've got time for a couple cycles, but like you're watching her go, well, now it's a year later and we're doing the same stuff.

[41:12] Lindsey Kraft: And you think about your own life and you're like, man, then she's frozen her eggs.

[41:18] Ben Folds: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.

[41:19] Lindsey Kraft: So we're like, she's frozen her eggs. So this time in her life that she might be a mother, that's past too. And how many people can relate to that?

[41:27] Ben Folds: Oh, so many now.

[41:27] Lindsey Kraft: And then you've got this guy going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick in the background, which is obnoxious as hell to me. But I just felt like, well, you know, the cliché is working.

[41:35] Ben Folds: I like the triangle as the phone too.

[41:39] Lindsey Kraft: That's right.

[41:40] Ben Folds: I really got to that last night. I finally found my place in that.

[41:44] Lindsey Kraft: Oh, you did.

[41:45] Ben Folds: I totally sit in that triangle part. Every time the phone rings, I get to go ting.

[41:52] Lindsey Kraft: And what I realized is that I can go for the phone and then ding for the, I got it. I don't even know what's going back on there. I'm just like, okay, like, I just get excited that I have a cue that I know what to do.

[42:03] Lindsey Kraft: There's something coming. I'm like, oh, okay. I was trying to use the real phone some, and that kind of like was working in a way, but she couldn't hear it up front and we don't have a soundcheck anymore. So, oh, well.

[42:12] Ben Folds: Yeah. I saw you were like hanging it into the snare drum mic or something.

[42:16] Lindsey Kraft: Did you hear it?

[42:17] Ben Folds: Yeah, I heard it.

[42:18] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. I think she doesn't hear it because she's not-

[42:20] Ben Folds: We only have one monitor up there, yeah.

[42:22] Lindsey Kraft: Oh yeah, I heard it fine. I was in row E.

[42:25] Ben Folds: Okay.

[42:27] Lindsey Kraft: There you go. No, that's interesting. And then, I mean, the producing side of this, has this been a surprise to you? Because it's been this first time you've produced in New York City, right?

[42:34] Ben Folds: I've never produced anything. I mean, I think, you know, again, back to we're all hacks. And everything that you're going to do requires a little bit of ignorance, a little bit of audacity, a little bit of cockiness, all that stuff put together to go do something that's ill-advised. You have to do that. I mean, if you're jumping in, anyone would say, oh, if I knew now, then what I knew today, and all that. Well, that's true of this too. It's like, we came in, we had some friends going, you are not doing this. We're like, yeah, that's what we're going to do.

[43:06] Lindsey Kraft: Well, you shouldn't do it in New York.

[43:10] Ben Folds: I'm doing this where we're doing it.

[43:10] Lindsey Kraft: Or no, we got to take the temperature. It's like, what are we talking-

[43:14] Ben Folds: Temperature of what?

[43:15] Lindsey Kraft: Temperature. It's like, oh, we got to check the temperature. Make sure it's safe to go into the water. But I do-

[43:20] Ben Folds: Or just to do things. It's like, these are kind of like, I don't know, these are words that you hear from maybe executives, producers, agents. And it's like, well, no. It's like, you just got to do it.

[43:35] Ben Folds: You need to put pieces and music in front of audiences. And if you're lucky, you get to do it enough times to where you find the audience. I'd say, any piece that's valid will have a massive audience. But no one gets the time with their head above water long enough to find that audience. And I had amazing advice. At the very beginning of my career, I was signed to publishing by a guy who was one of the heads of ABC Records, and he had signed Steely Dan, the pair of them, to their publishing and record contract. And he just said the most amazing thing to me. He was like, you're not a freak, are you? He actually said, you're not a fucking freak, are you? I was like, I don't know. He goes, well, say you are.

Okay. Yeah. All right. I was 22 years old. Sure. Yes, sir. I'm a freak. And he's like, okay, so let's just say that 0.00002 of the people alive will give a shit about what you do, but they love it. And does that sound like a lot? And I'm like, no, it doesn't. He goes, if I found that for you in the United States, you would be selling triple gold or triple platinum or something. I was like, really? Like, wow. Okay. He goes, but the trick is I have to find them because I can't find them if you won't be you. If you're not doing exactly what you do, I will never ever find that audience for you. I can't create it. You're not smart enough to second guess what people like. You're just not. I'm not. And so, the whole trick is you do you and I've got five seconds to get out there and find all the other yous out there.

[45:09] Ben Folds: So, anybody who's making something, what you have to remember is if it's true, if it is you, you have a huge audience out there. The sad part is not much chance you're going to find it. But if you keep persisting, if you're stubborn enough to keep doing it, so I put it up in New York City. I'll be very honest. I think that anything that someone does, first of all, you bring in the people who will show up. They may be industry people, friends of yours. You can paper the town. You can do what you want to. They'll show up. Same with the rock gig. My band started out playing for 20, 40 people a night. Out of those 20 or 40 people, five of them got it. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but that's a lot.

And so, those five people come back and they bring back five people. So, next time you've gone down and those people love it. So, you're starting to build the cult of the people who have that planetary genetic commonality with you. So, that's what we're doing with this piece.

[46:01] Ben Folds: I don't believe musical theater often has the chance to do that. And as a result, they don't have the understanding that that's what it takes most of them. They put it up, throw it against the wall and bless their hearts. They only have a certain amount of money, moving parts, conference calls, times, theater, space, contracts, lawyers. They only have a certain amount of that stuff. These people doing production and this kind of work producing this, there are a few Mozart's of it that we know who they are and they fucking kill this business. And the rest of them know nothing. I could tell that from a mile off. They know more than me. So, fine. I know one-tenth nothing. They know all of nothing.

We don't know anything. So, we decided to just come in and our attitude is find the audience. And I believe that it's the same with my band. I think we've got three quarters filled rooms. The people who love it will kill you for it. The rest of them recognize that there's something probably there. They're not going to come back or tell their friends and that's just fine. So, it's like Steely Dan or me or anything that ever was great. Wow, that was a fucking diatribe.

[47:08] Lindsey Kraft: No, that was great. Because it goes along, again, this is going to be episode 451 probably.

[47:18] Ben Folds: That's a good number.

[47:19] Lindsey Kraft: That's a good number.

[47:20] Ben Folds: Is it prime?

[47:21] Lindsey Kraft: 451? I don't know. I don't know.

[47:25] Ben Folds: If it's a prime number, I think we're going somewhere. Sounds prime to me.

[47:29] Lindsey Kraft: No.

[47:30] Ben Folds: Shit.

[47:30] Lindsey Kraft: It could be 11 times 41. Yeah, we're fucked. Oh, wow. But anyway, including bonuses, this is close to the 500th episode that will drop in speed. And then the main through line from beginning to end that I've heard for now, however many years I've been doing this is you got to be uniquely you. You have to do what makes you different. Because if you try to be the next Idita Menzel, you try to be the next Kristin Chenoweth, next Ben Folds, you're not going to get anywhere. You're going to, you got to be you.

[48:05] Ben Folds: You have to be the first you. And all of your initial assets are seen as liabilities. It's reverse world. Every single time. The thing that is, the reason that you will make it is exactly the thing that's holding you back. And that gravity gets thicker and thicker until you break out. And then suddenly it reverses almost every single time.

[48:29] Lindsey Kraft: Then you're setting the standard.

[48:31] Ben Folds: Yeah. And that's why it gets more and more disappointing as that becomes the problem. You know, it's like, I don't know, like I see like in politics, like there's always something like, I think the next thing will probably be, you know, gay president because people are like, no, can't have that. Oh, can't have that. Remember what happened with even they just chewed up the women and all that. And at some point that's going to be the reason that it breaks through. Everything is like that.

[48:57] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Well, I think where we are now, touching on politics for a second, it's got to swing the other way. We've swung one direction so hard right now. And I mean, like you're very publicly stepped back from Lincoln Center.

[49:09] Ben Folds: It's going to be...

[49:10] Lindsey Kraft: Kennedy Center.

[49:11] Ben Folds: Yeah, sorry. Kennedy Center.

[49:13] Lindsey Kraft: It's, here's the trick. The pendulum is real. Did we break it?

[49:20] Ben Folds: Because everything has an end.

[49:24] Lindsey Kraft: Not according to Lindsay. It's all, the beginning is the end.

[49:28] Ben Folds: That's maybe. I just want to be alive to see the beginning.

[49:32] Lindsey Kraft: Well, so, I mean, what do you think about that though? Because in a place where we are, New York, especially going back to producing for a second and tying this in, like we are in a country now that does not support the arts. We're in a country that doesn't care about it. Would you look at, like, I'm trying to bring a show to Broadway right now and I need over 6 million.

[49:49] Ben Folds: Well, we care about the wrong part of it. I think we deeply care about it. I think we care about the wrong part of it.

[49:55] Lindsey Kraft: What do you mean?

[49:56] Ben Folds: Well, it's the commercialized part to just throw a cliché out there. You know, people, when someone says music's dead, well, you mean music and commerce together are dead. Commerce is not delivering us the music that means something. But if you walk around the street just in three blocks here, you're going to hear and see art. If you even go on the stupid old internet and see what people are making, it's just so disparate and disconnected. And as soon as we get back to the idea that there's a balance where you've got, let's say, Blue Note Records, where the record label is as artistic as the artist and the album covers were as artistic, people will be pissed off at that too. Because it's like, that filter won't accept me into their club. It's like, you suck.

[50:46] Ben Folds: Anyway, sorry. I agree with like half of that. I mean, we don't support the arts publicly, commercially, or in practicality.

[51:01] Tom Clougherty: Yeah.

[51:02] Ben Folds: Like, if you're going to have a government by the people, and it won't give you five cents for NPR, then we're broken in that way. But people are so artistic, something will blow.

[51:23] Tom Clougherty: Yeah.

[51:24] Ben Folds: Something will blow up.

[51:25] Tom Clougherty: Something has to.

[51:26] Ben Folds: Yeah. Yeah. And it'll be because of art.

[51:29] Tom Clougherty: It's just this weird label that you have to put on, again, tying it all together to not be a hack, to not have feel-imposter syndrome. You have to be legitimate in New York with the big budget.

[51:40] Ben Folds: It's amazing what money legitimizes. We were talking about it the other night, and it's like this stupidest music in the world, because it gets such exposure, you start to feel like maybe it's great. I mean, you have a reverence for it. Like, someone said, this won a Grammy, and you're like, wow, that's amazing. And you start to think about it, it's like, I want to... Terrible. But it's legitimized by money so much, isn't it? And I think there's no middle class anymore, right? And there's no middle class of art either. You're either working class artist, or you're gauche right at the very top, vulgar-ass artist with all this nouveau riche money, and there's nothing in the middle. And that sucks.

That makes it really hard for stuff like what we're doing. We've got a solidly upper-middle class piece that we are doing basically as very low-class. What she's performing needs to be in a more expensive environment. Not because it needs the tricks, it just deserves that environment. But you know what? We're willing to go do the busking version of it. But look at the stuff that all that money gets put into. No wonder people have imposter syndrome. I would too, if someone put that much money in me. I was like, I'm not worthy. Well, I mean, Lost Boys that you just saw was a 30-something million capitalization budget just to get to opening night. And then you need your ticket sales. Tomorrow's ticket sales pays... Or yesterday's ticket sales pays for tomorrow's marketing dollars. So it's this vicious cycle that if you don't have enough marketing to pay the tickets, you can't market to get more...

[53:30] Ben Folds: Well, I thought when we walked in, first of all, and heard the 200-decibel crash at the top, which was hilarious. I think it was really amazing. I love that show. I just thought what someone had said to me before. Remember Liz Phair, the singer? And she'd be like, he knows how to ride the bull. She knows how to ride the bull. I don't know how to ride the bull. Those people know how to ride the bull. But I don't know if we know how to ride the bull. But she knows how to express what she wants to. And I'm going to back her up. Yeah, I can do it anywhere. I could do it anywhere. Living rooms, yeah. But it deserves a little bit more space. Not a lot, just a little middle-class space. But what is that? You're either the massive thing, or you're some little theater that has more mold spores than the mold spore counts for you.

[54:19] Tom Clougherty: Well, that's the New York commercial environment. You have to be the big thing. Otherwise, economically, you can't survive. Your running costs are too high because of all these reasons that I feel, and I've said many times, that the government needs to step in and regulate. Somebody needs to get in here and just put a cap on this stuff.

[54:38] Ben Folds: But do you think it's helpful that we've been here before? It's a pretty cheap show.

[54:44] Tom Clougherty: Yours? Yeah.

[54:45] Ben Folds: Yeah. I'm like, is that going to be helpful for the future of it?

[54:49] Tom Clougherty: Oh, sure.

[54:49] Ben Folds: Well, definitely, that's a model that people are going to have to embrace and probably are embracing because you have to. But the scale is so odd. This is an idea. Let's say, here's an idea over here. And because everyone agreed on it and someone knew how to ride the bull, that okay idea now gets $10 million thrown at it, as opposed to, this is a great idea. It seems like a harder sell. No one knows how to ride the bull. It's sounding better or worse, but now it gets a $50,000 budget and people are paying off and working at Chick-fil-A in order to pay for it for the next 10 years. And that's just, that kind of discrepancy mirrors culturally, politically, what we're experiencing in the world, which is someone is vacuuming at the top so very hard.

And now everyone at the bottom, the whole game is to make sure that we're all fighting ourselves. And that's where art comes in because art brings people together. And as soon as the bottom class, again, which is everyone, it's us too. It's like, I got more money than I had or my parents had when I was a kid. But when you stack it up against things, everyone that we're running into are more well at the bottom of this, while the top is fed off that. It's just, it's too out of whack. And then we're complaining about that. Most people are trying to figure out how to get their doctor paid for and make sure that the kids have glasses and they don't die and they have food. It's crazy. That's a great place to end. So we've got this show. You need to spend your last 60 bucks. Come see. We've been here before.

[56:27] Lindsey Kraft: What is one thing, Lindsay, you want people to walk away from after seeing it?

[56:38] Lindsey Kraft: I want them humming the tunes, one thing, and feeling like they can have the courage to still grow as an adult. I like that.

[56:49] Ben Folds: Or at any age. Yeah. All right. So three final questions. Just quick, rapid fire, and you can each answer. Lindsay, we'll start with you. Simply, what motivates you?

[56:56] Lindsey Kraft: How do I answer that quickly? Well, I don't even know. Wait, what motivates me? For me, it's routine.

[57:02] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah?

[57:04] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Routine motivates me. It's the page turner of the day. I wake up, I'm like, I just want to stay in bed for the rest of my life. I don't fucking care. And then I go, but the coffee seems like a good idea. And then I get up and after the coffee, it's like, but that looks like a good idea. If you can just find a reason to turn the page, that's the motivation. And eventually where you get is the coffee's not enough. The walk around the block wasn't enough. The getting the work done wasn't enough. You really want to express how you felt about it all. What motivates me is sharing the piece. If I could do that every day, I would be so happy.

[57:40] Ben Folds: You do it every day.

[57:45] Ben Folds: Okay, Ben, I'll start with you. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[57:48] Ben Folds: I wouldn't have listened, so nothing. I'd say, young Ben, I'm here from the future. You're going to fuck up a lot. Good luck. I hope you get through it. You're not going to listen to anything, so enjoy. And by the way, my back hurts, so fuck you.

[58:12] Lindsey Kraft: Well, it's interesting to me because I think I would have probably really loved being in music as a kid, but at the same time, I'm grateful that I wasn't because I don't think I'd have the songs that I have if I didn't discover it until I was 39, 40.

[58:30] Ben Folds: That's right. Your path was unique.

[58:33] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Love that. All right, so last question. Either of you can start. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you could see it as many times as you want, what would you see? It could be TV, movie, Broadway, anything.

[58:41] Lindsey Kraft: It's so funny because Ben and I both are not, we don't have favorites of things, and so he's always talking about how he hates favorites.

[58:46] Ben Folds: I don't like favorites, but that's not really what he's asked.

[58:54] Lindsey Kraft: I know. It's one thing over and over again. What's coming to my mind is a combination of my favorite songs from each show. So if I could have a combination of some songs from Les Mis, some songs from Chorus Line, some songs from Gypsy—

[59:10] Ben Folds: That's the way you order off the menu.

[59:10] Lindsey Kraft: Some songs from Into the Woods.

[59:12] Ben Folds: Yeah, I like to have a little bit of just, I want to have all the textures and tastes for my eyes and ears and soul.

[59:24] Ben Folds: I mean, look, I'd be fine just putting on The Wizard of Oz if I had to watch something every day, something like that.

[59:28] Lindsey Kraft: Or The Sound of Music.

[59:30] Ben Folds: Yeah, something like that kind of works. There's just something sort of right about it because after all the repetition, if there were any false moves in something, that's what I would want to start. And I don't think there are any in certain things like that. Probably quite a few pieces are like that, but that one I think I could probably deal with.

[59:50] Lindsey Kraft: That's fine. That's good.

[59:51] Lindsey Kraft: I could watch The Holiday, Sleepless in Seattle, Defending Your Life, just like on cycle.

[59:57] Ben Folds: Wow.

[59:57] Lindsey Kraft: And be thrilled. What about you?

[59:59] Ben Folds: Me? Well, normally my answer to that is Rent, because that's what got me into theater.

[1:00:06] Lindsey Kraft: I love Rent. Rent is so good. I'm sorry that I'm going to say a couple songs from Rent, too.

[1:00:12] Ben Folds: Okay, there you go.

[1:00:13] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah.

[1:00:13] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah, Rent got me into theater because it showed me that I didn't have to be a legit singer. I've never had that type of voice. I didn't have to be your traditional singer. And I'd be like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. And then so I saw it and I went after it and took me down a weird path that puts me here now. But yeah, that's one of those things. And I think TV or movie, I don't know why the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, I love watching over and over again, and Back to the Future 2.

[1:00:46] Ben Folds: Oh, 2.

[1:00:46] Lindsey Kraft: 2.

[1:00:47] Ben Folds: Anything 2, that's a hipster answer.

[1:00:51] Lindsey Kraft: I do live in Brooklyn, so that's a skinny jeans answer.

[1:00:56] Ben Folds: Sex and the City, I could watch over and over again. But I remember when I saw Rent, I had memorized the entire soundtrack. And my parents got me tickets and my best friend Lindsay, and we went and I forgot my glasses in the car. So my dad ran like 10 blocks where the car was parked and I was so stressed out. I was sitting in that seat and it was like the best thing I've ever seen. It was so exciting.

[1:01:22] Lindsey Kraft: You see it here in town?

[1:01:23] Ben Folds: I saw it with the original cast.

[1:01:25] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Well, some of them are in town. They could come see you.

[1:01:30] Ben Folds: You can put that out there in the world.

[1:01:31] Lindsey Kraft: I know. I'd love Hello, Rent cast. I mean, Idina Menzel, she's a good friend of one of my friends. Maybe she'll come.

[1:01:36] Ben Folds: What was the story? You said you grew up on Long Island, right?

[1:01:40] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. So I think Adam Pascal, was it Adam? I think it was Adam. He was in the show. They were trying to find the Mimi. No, no, no. Sorry. Sorry, sorry. It was the reverse.

[1:01:52] Ben Folds: Really? Like in your 20s?

[1:01:54] Lindsey Kraft: No, no. I was making... No, I was in my 30s, early 30s. And yeah. I think they ended up with someone else who was a current rock singer at the time too. It was like the second or third generation of the show. I don't know who it was, but yeah. So someone ended up doing it. I just thought, I had just seen it and I was like, I don't know if a Southern, not gay, just like, I just didn't think I'd have to do too much acting and I'm not an actor. It's like me going up on stage, I'm in Rent. I don't know. Rent's too hot. I don't know. It felt like an idiot, so I didn't do it.

[1:02:35] Ben Folds: And you could pay your rent.

[1:02:39] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. So you couldn't relate. I get it.

[1:02:44] Ben Folds: Well, thank you both so much. Everybody, please go down to the Soho Playhouse and see, we've been here before. I saw it two days ago. Loved it. I'm going to come see it again.

[1:02:57] Lindsey Kraft: Really?

[1:02:57] Ben Folds: Yeah. I want to. I really want to.

[1:02:58] Lindsey Kraft: I think you'll pick up some new things. I think there's like some Easter eggs that people don't realize, but you'll see them the second time.

[1:03:04] Ben Folds: I've got my triangle down. This is much better.

[1:03:06] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah. I got to come for your triangle ringing.

[1:03:08] Ben Folds: Yeah.

[1:03:09] Lindsey Kraft: Yeah.

[1:03:09] Lindsey Kraft: No, but there's sort of like a beginning and end for all of the characters I talk about. So if there's certain things that happen in the beginning that come full circle, that excites me. Stuff like that really tickles me.

[1:03:20] Ben Folds: I love it. Well, thank you both so much.

[1:03:22] Lindsey Kraft: Thank you so much.

[1:03:22] Ben Folds: Thanks, man. Good to talk to you again.