This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Alan Seales: Welcome to the Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names.

[0:12] Alan Seales: This episode is with Kathryn Gallagher, and it's actually the first episode that I've recorded post New York City shutdown for the coronavirus outbreak, COVID-19, whatever you want to call it. It's a pain in everyone's ass, but we're doing the best that we can. So we recorded in our respective homes via Skype. Kathryn and I actually recorded video of the session. So if you want to watch the video version of this interview, head over to ttp.fm slash Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N, and become a patron at the lowest level. You can see the whole interview and just watch us kind of geek out sitting on the floors of our houses.

[0:48] Alan Seales: So it was kind of fun. I actually say it during the intro to her, but she really is one of the most interesting people that I've had the pleasure of meeting lately. She was born in Manhattan, lived here for a little while, moved to LA for her teen years, her impressionable years, and being the daughter of two successful actors who were very conscious about keeping her out of the limelight and telling her you only have one chance to be a kid, so go be a kid.

[1:12] Alan Seales: Like she didn't do anything publicly until basically she was like 21, 22. And then all of a sudden her career has skyrocketed and she's been doing tons of things since then. Of course, Broadway debut, which as you hear in this episode, sort of fell in her lap. As we get deep into the content about Jagged Little Pill, of course, she's Bella, one of the main characters in that show on Broadway. I would say Broadway right now, but Broadway is dark. So when Broadway returns, she will be Bella again in Jagged Little Pill.

[1:39] Alan Seales: But when we got into that content, she was so honest and so authentic about her own personal health struggles and issues that she's gone through in her own life and how she's incorporated that into her character. And as heavy as a show as Jagged Little Pill is, how she's able to just become herself afterwards, after every show, and even become a better version of herself. She was saying that being a character that goes through so much trauma has actually been a cathartic experience for her to get through some of her own. So it was a really, really great conversation. Kathryn, thank you for being your genuine self. Again, if you want to watch the video version, visit ttp.fm.com. And you can find out how to watch it there.

[2:25] Alan Seales: As always, please leave a rating, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram and Twitter at theatre underscore podcast. You can visit me on the Broadway Podcast Network at bpn.fm.com. And everyone now please enjoy this episode with Kathryn Gallagher.

[2:49] Alan Seales: My guest today is one of the most interesting people I've had the pleasure of meeting as of late and aside from being an amazing singer songwriter, she made her Broadway debut in 2015 in the Deaf West revival of Spring Awakening and stars as Annika Atwater in the show You on Netflix. She's currently starring as Bella in Jagged Little Pill. Kathryn Gallagher, welcome to the Theatre Podcast.

[3:14] Kathryn Gallagher: Thank you so much for having me.

[3:16] Alan Seales: You are welcome. Yeah, last time I saw you was BroadwayCon end of January. It's been quite a ride in the last what month and a half.

[3:27] Kathryn Gallagher: We are sitting...

[3:28] Alan Seales: Nothing's changed. What are you talking about?

[3:30] Kathryn Gallagher: I'm sitting on the floor of my bedroom of my place in Brooklyn, interviewing you remotely because we are not allowed to see each other face to face right now.

[3:41] Alan Seales: No, we are not. We are socially distanced.

[3:45] Kathryn Gallagher: Oh, socially distanced. This coronavirus bullshit. And so what's the date today? Today's the 19th. So we're recording this on Thursday, March 19th, when who knows what's going on. Just yesterday, you did a... What did you call it? Your dance party. What was the hashtag?

[4:03] Kathryn Gallagher: The Quarantunes.

[4:04] Alan Seales: Yeah, Quarantunes.

[4:05] Kathryn Gallagher: The Quarantunes dance party.

[4:06] Alan Seales: Quarantunes dance party with Ben Platt and Noah Galvin.

[4:11] Kathryn Gallagher: Yes.

[4:12] Alan Seales: Are they still there? Did they come over?

[4:15] Kathryn Gallagher: They left yesterday morning. So they were with us for like four to five days.

[4:19] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah. I was like, they should not be traveling so much, but that seemed to be a lot of fun.

[4:25] Kathryn Gallagher: They sort of came up before the intensive guidelines were sort of restricted, but we were very responsible in our socially distancing together. And so to this day, we are still the only four people, my brother included, that we've seen. We've just been like in little pods and now everyone's back in their own little pods. So we were very responsible and very careful.

[4:49] Alan Seales: Are you going to do any more, any concerts from home or performances or anything? Because there's no Broadway. Broadway is shut down.

[4:57] Kathryn Gallagher: It's so crazy. Actually, Noah and I were talking about doing this. Now that I'm saying it, I feel like it has to happen because we cooked so much together and we're both huge bakers. So we were talking about doing a split Instagram live where we bake the same thing, which I think would be really fun. So that's fun. Definitely. It's so crazy. I know I'm supposed to do, that's my dog barking in the background. I'm in Connecticut where there's a lot of bears and animals all over. So every day it's like my dog is on guard, is like the master protector of the house, which is loud. But how do you talk a dog out of saving your life?

[5:36] Kathryn Gallagher: You can't. It's just his prerogative.

[5:39] Alan Seales: That's what dogs do.

[5:40] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, right. And so tomorrow night I'm doing an Instagram live concert to benefit the Actors Fund. My day, it's so funny. I've been so busy. I've had so many, I keep saying Broadway has gone dark, but none of the performers have. Ben, Noah and I were crowding around the phone watching Kelly O'Hara sing Bridges. And we're like, how is this possible? We are so lucky. We are so gifted in this world to have Kelly O'Hara serenading us from her house.

[6:14] Alan Seales: I think it's so much fun that people, you guys are always in shows and you're doing shows eight times a week. You don't get to see each other. And so one of the silver linings through all this is that you could actually start interacting again as friends and real people.

[6:28] Kathryn Gallagher: It is funny. It's like I've been dying to have sincere catch-ups with so many of my friends because when you're doing a show, when you get home or before the show, first thing when you wake up, you have to be careful with how much you're talking and how you're using your voice. And they always say talking on the phone is bad for your voice because you end up talking louder, which I'm sure is true. So I'm always really paranoid about things like that. This is my dog, by the way. He's crying, wants to be included in the podcast.

[6:55] Alan Seales: Oh, hi, pups.

[6:55] Kathryn Gallagher: But yeah, so now I'm finally getting the opportunity to catch up with my friends, which is like this sort of, you know, I think I'm sort of, as a person, I walk a very fine line between deeply optimistic and woefully pessimistic. It's really like always acknowledge the worst possible outcome, but really put your energy towards the best while keeping expectations low. That's like sort of my theory on life, my outlook.

[7:38] Alan Seales: I was totally with you until keep expectations low.

[7:42] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, mine are always low.

[7:44] Alan Seales: Because, well, are you not... how I am is that I was exactly the same, but then I have the best expectations. And then when it doesn't work, if it doesn't work, I am so down on myself.

[7:58] Kathryn Gallagher: Yes, so I just think nothing will work. I think, well, wouldn't that be nice? No, it will never happen. I'm telling you, to the point where if I'm filming something, I won't tell people about it until it's on the air. Because I'm like, well, clearly, they're gonna cut my rollout, obviously. I'm so sure that like, until it is like, until especially with work, like with Jagged, I was very careful. Everyone was like, it's going to Broadway, it's going to Broadway. And I was like, listen, until it is opening night, I don't even mean previews. I mean, opening night, until there have been reviews printed in papers, it's not happening. It's just something we're working on.

[8:44] Alan Seales: If we weren't currently sitting in different rooms in different states, interviewing each other remotely, I would have to disagree with you. But the fact that Six was supposed to open Thursday, the night that Broadway shut down, did not happen. Anything could happen.

[8:59] Kathryn Gallagher: Oh, my goodness. And now Diana and Mrs. Doubtfire and Carolina Change, who knows what's going to happen to these shows. I feel so bad.

[9:09] Alan Seales: I know you work on something for years and years and years. I mean, literally, like I'm not even being dramatic when you're doing a new musical, especially years of your life, years of your life getting paid very little to do workshops and things all for the hopeful, eventual goal of Broadway. And you get to your opening night. Oh, my God, like it's crushing. It is like, you know, and that's the thing that we kept talking about in our theater is like, you know, we're obviously heartbroken that we're not getting to do our show eight times a week. But imagining being in that position of like, when everything is finally coming together, and you're just ready to celebrate your show and put on your beautiful dress.

And like, you get like one day to kind of pat yourself on the back and like, be really stoked before you're like, Oh, yeah, this is really hard. And I'm back to being an Olympic athlete. And like to not be given that day. It's just like, it breaks my heart to think of all the actors that like, were at that moment, and now are sort of on this hiatus. But I'm very optimistic that we will get to see all of these shows.

[10:16] Kathryn Gallagher: Oh, yeah, I think that they'll come back. I just feel heartbroken for these actors. Like you said, some of them making their debuts, and they were like, literally, they woke up that morning, not realizing that they wouldn't make their debuts that night.

[10:30] Alan Seales: It's crushing. Yeah, it's like being in tech right now. And then putting that on. I mean, it's just like, and also knowing like, this is the right thing to do. You know what I mean? That's the craziest thing is you're like, Oh, yeah, this has to happen.

[10:46] Kathryn Gallagher: I mean, you can be mad about it. And like, 100% like, toss your toys around the room. I would. But it's like, Oh, yeah, this has to happen. This is just like, it's like this great humbling experience of like, oh, Mother Nature is reminding us all who's boss. It's kind of how like this great equalizer, you know?

[11:08] Alan Seales: Well, for me, it's been kind of a reality check too, in terms of my own mental health, and giving myself a moment to check in and see what's really important. So I'm, you know, I'm coming back and I'm focusing on myself. And I'm focusing, I'm here with my family, obviously, here stuck in the house. And with schools being closed, I have two small kids. So like, they're home with me. And that's, I'll put it in air quotes, fun, fun. You might hear them try to bang down the door here soon.

[11:41] Kathryn Gallagher: I was talking to my cousin who has a two-year-old, Una, and she's so cute. And she was Marco Polo-ing me and she was just like, how many more times can I listen to Frozen? I don't know. But it's like, when Frozen stops, crying begins. So it's like, it's a toss up. So I wonder, is that similar to your experience right now?

[11:59] Alan Seales: Well, Disney very intelligently released Frozen 2 early on Disney Plus.

[12:05] Kathryn Gallagher: I heard.

[12:05] Alan Seales: So that came out. So we've been watching that. But I've been very, very lucky. There was a very, there's good friends of ours who are one block over who have two kids the same age as my kids, and we're alternating days to homeschool them.

[12:20] Kathryn Gallagher: Huge.

[12:20] Alan Seales: So it's like, every couple of days, I have normal work days without the kids. And it's like, that's my time to focus and buckle down and really do this. And it's, I mean, just not being able to go out and feeling unsafe walking down the street is a new reality.

[12:38] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, there's no escape from it.

[12:40] Alan Seales: I go into the bodega on the corner to get a sandwich, and like five people come in, five people, not even like the 10 that you're not supposed to be around. And I'm like, am I gonna get it from them? Am I gonna get it from him? Or am I gonna get it from her? Like, what is this? And it's really like, I gotta really, you know, go home and focus on myself.

[12:57] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah. And I do think there's something too about knowing that symptoms don't even show up in certain people that is like deeply unsettling. Like, it's not like, oh, well, now I have it. And there you go. It's like, do I have it? And did I like, am I secretly carrying this virus? And so it's like, really, the only thing you can do, which feels so counterintuitive, especially for people who are so used to leading such public lives and involved lives, that like the only thing and the best thing you can do is stay home. It feels so helpless, even though it's actively the greatest thing you can do. It's just so counterintuitive.

[13:37] Alan Seales: Right. Right. Well, considering that this is a podcast about theater, I want to take it back to theater. This is not a coronavirus podcast?

[13:47] Kathryn Gallagher: No, although there's plenty of those out there now.

[13:51] Alan Seales: Like, during the show, the week or so before we started, I was obsessed with coronavirus. Like, anyone in my show will tell you. I was walking down the halls of the theater and I'm

[14:00] Kathryn Gallagher: We're not making it to the end of the week. I'm telling you, look at the numbers in Italy. And everyone was like, you're out of your fucking mind. Broadway's not shutting down, like relax. And I was like, get your groceries. You know, prepare. Just know that we're probably not finishing this week. And I was like, sputtering facts out left and right. Everyone was like, shut up, Kathryn, you're a psycho. So I was like the town crier in our theatre for like 10 full days. And we were right, but I was right.

[14:31] Kathryn Gallagher: That's the low expectations kicking in there. You're like, we're not going to make it. We're not going to make it to the end of the week. I kept just saying, I was like, look at the numbers in Italy. Look at Italy. Well, okay. So let me take it to you a little bit and tell me about where you grew up. I grew up on 71st between Broadway and Columbus. I am a Manhattan baby, but I moved to LA when I was 11. So I'm very much like my entire life has been equally split between both New York City and Los Angeles.

[15:06] Alan Seales: So do you consider yourself more of a West Coast person or an East Coast person? Like there are distinct personalities.

[15:10] Kathryn Gallagher: I'm a weird mix. And I've noticed this because it depends who you ask. Some people are like, you're so California. And I'm like, literally no. I consider my, I think I'm more of a New Yorker, like in my sort of energy. And also in my knowledge, extensive knowledge, I should say, of where to get the best bagels. What, you know, like the sort of street smart aspect, like there's certain, the pace in which I walk down a street. These are things LA natives, they can't keep up with.

[15:48] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The walking.

[15:51] Kathryn Gallagher: Like you look in my vitamin supplement, like, you know, collection and it's quite LA. I have mushrooms in my coffee, you know? So I do think that like, stereotypically, I do check off boxes in both columns. But I think I'm far more of a New Yorker. And also I've chosen to spend my adult life in New York. And I do think that's sort of, it always calls me back home.

[16:25] Alan Seales: Well, you and your brother, your brother James is now a director. And the two of you sort of grew up with both of your parents, Peter Gallagher and Paula Harwood, in the theater and the TV film world. Like the two of you grew up, not in the limelight yourselves, but you were around this. And was that a conscious choice from your parents to kind of keep you out of the camera? Because there's a lot of celebrity parents that like to do that.

[16:51] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah. Yeah, they were like, you know, my dad's like, has said this a million times over, you only have one chance to be a kid. And so they were very, very adamant that while I was a kid, I was a kid, and I wasn't working. And I, however, had a very different idea. I was like, listen, I was reading backstage.com. And which is something I would do when I was like 12, I was looking at auditions, I was wanting, you know, I wanted to be, I wanted to be making music already, I wanted to be in the studio, I wanted to be doing movies, I was so driven since I was a little kid, but my parents were like, absolutely not.

[17:31] Kathryn Gallagher: And then there was sort of one day that I found this Camp Rock audition online. And it was like, Mitchie, 16, singer songwriter, I was 12. And I was like, guys, mom, dad, it's me. This is my role. I gotta go in, please. And they were like, no. And I got so mad. I got so mad. And I went into my room and I picked up my guitar and I wrote this song called I'm Okay, which was basically like convincing my dad to let me audition, which he did. And Disney was not like, as sure as I was that it was me. I did get a callback, to be fair.

[18:07] Alan Seales: Do you remember who got the role?

[18:09] Kathryn Gallagher: Demi Lovato.

[18:13] Kathryn Gallagher: It was Demi Lovato's breakout role. So it's cool. No hard feelings. I don't feel like I missed the role of a lifetime. But I will say I do feel like I did almost, but different paths, different strokes, different books. And so, so yeah, so they were very clear. But at the same time, they were very inclusive in sort of the way in which we were in the opportunities we were around. Like, they always wanted us to meet incredible artists, you know, and to see, like my dad, I went to set with my dad a million times. So the sort of nuts and bolts of it, like the actual sets and the actual work of it, I felt very involved in and very included in. But when it came down to sort of the, like going to events or things, they were not, there was no sort of push to get us there in that in any sort of capacity, except for like the Fun Kid premieres, because that, like Harry Potter was always one that I would beg to go to, because they had great candy.

[19:17] Alan Seales: Well, you and your brother, it's interesting, because you went, the two of you kind of split the same side, different sides of the same coin. So like, he's behind the scenes and creating, and you're creating, but you're like being a singer songwriter, you're on stage and in front of the camera and in the spotlight and whatnot. What was it about the music or being on stage that spoke to you more than, I guess, the behind the scenes aspect?

[19:46] Kathryn Gallagher: I would say that I just wouldn't shut up. Like, I was just like, it wasn't... It didn't occur to me to not be on stage. Like, I would be putting on shows in my apartment building lobby for anyone or nobody, didn't matter, but the show must go on. That's been my mentality since I was a little kid. And so I think for me, it was kind of, everything for me was a performance. When I was a little kid, you know what I mean? Like, I remember, it was so embarrassing, but like, you know, in quarantine, all bets are off, you know, let's get honest. I would put on shows brushing my teeth, teaching my viewers how to brush their teeth. I'd be like, now, first up on today's show, you put the, you wet the toothbrush and then you put the toothpick, and I like do these full shows every night before I went to bed.

[20:40] Alan Seales: By yourself?

[20:40] Kathryn Gallagher: For weeks. Yes, by myself. There was no audience.

[20:43] Alan Seales: This was when you were five or like last week?

[20:46] Kathryn Gallagher: Both. I mean, it's been consistent. No, literally when I, yeah, I would say I was like probably five or six and I would look in the bathroom mirror and I would like, I mean, this was vlogging pre-vlogging. I was, you know, I don't know. I don't know why I didn't really get into the vlog game, because I've been practicing for so long.

[21:07] Alan Seales: Well, there are, yeah, there's whole opportunities. You could do like toothbrush cam.

[21:13] Kathryn Gallagher: So you just, you just like it at seven, eight p.m. every night. I'm going to go brush my teeth, kids, and you come in and we'll sing a song together and we'll wash our hands for 20 seconds. It's the, it's the Corona toothbrush cam.

[21:23] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah. Randy, I've been preparing for quarantine my whole life.

[21:32] Kathryn Gallagher: So then, yeah, well, I'm glad that you mentioned like your parents. I kind of assumed that your parents had kind of kept you to be being a kid and doing kid things, which I think is incredibly admirable, because like looking up credits and past career history, like it all just sort of started 2011 as your first TV film credit. And then like 2014, 2015, it just like you just shot out of the gate. And then putting out song after song after, you know, two Broadway shows and like blowing up on Netflix, and just everything's just happening now.

[22:10] Kathryn Gallagher: It's so sweet hearing you say that, because my perspective of my career is like, God, you've done nothing, Gallagher, like work harder. So it's really, and I do think I find that so true with so many of my actor friends. We're all like, I've done nothing. I need to do more. And I need to focus and I need to work harder. And I need to do all these things. And then you like kind of take back, like take a step back and look at what you've done. You're always, it's always like, kind of like, oh, yeah, I've done something.

[22:36] Alan Seales: You've done, you know, you've done some, I mean, you look at the social media numbers. I mean, social media, in and of itself is its own game that I don't think I will ever understand. I mean, on the surface, on the surface, I do. People want to present their best selves. They want people to like them. They want to be validated. So like presenting and being on social media, I get that. And I guess as someone who follows other people, obviously, I have followers, or I follow other people, that I like to know what they're doing. And it's weird, because when people complain, it's hard for me to describe. And I know I'm stumbling over my words here. But on one hand, I'm like, I know it's relatively not real, because most people only present their positive sides and the good aspects and the fun things that happen.

And then when a lot of people present something bad, I guess maybe it's a little hypocritical of me to say this, but I'm like, oh, man, I don't want to see that bad crap. Like, they just want pity. They just want attention. They just want help. And I feel bad about kind of both sides of it. Social media is such an interesting thing, because when I sort of like, when I look back at the most difficult times in my life, and I find this, I've been kind of sort of curious about this, like, what was I posting? Like, retrospectively, what was I presenting in these times of my life that were brutal, where like, my reality was crying on my bed for seven hours? What did I post that day? You know, I didn't post a selfie with, you know, puffy eyes. That's for damn sure.

[24:22] Alan Seales: Right.

[24:22] Kathryn Gallagher: I posted a professional photo shoot. You know, like, and then I think, okay, well, what am I posting when I'm genuinely happy? Nothing.

[24:31] Alan Seales: Right.

[24:32] Kathryn Gallagher: Like, you know, maybe a picture of my dog. You know, oh, oh, you know what it is, though? And it just occurred to me as you said this, that yeah, when you're bad, you're posting positive things, because you like, need it. Chemically, and I've said this before on the podcast, and that chemically, getting likes, getting follows, getting all that, it's releasing serotonin in our brain. So, we are chemically falling in love with our digital devices. And when you are happy, you don't need that. You're in the moment, you're experiencing it. So, it doesn't occur to you to go to that drug, more or less, to get that validation.

[25:14] Alan Seales: It's true.

[25:15] Kathryn Gallagher: Therapy with Catherine and Alan. Listen, like, here all month, probably.

[25:21] Alan Seales: Oh, God, at least.

[25:23] Kathryn Gallagher: Truly. But yeah, social media is something that I feel like I don't, like, I don't think I do it. I have friends that do it quite well. Like, my friend Alexa Losey, she's an incredible, she's a vlogger, she's brilliant. She's like one of the smartest people I know. And everything that she does on social media, I'm always like, oh, that's how you do it. Like, you're right. And I'll never do it that way, because I'm like, don't, I don't have that brain power. But she does it so, so brilliantly, and so beautifully, and so intelligently. And then I think to what I'm doing, and I'm like, well, as long as I'm posting something that feels honest in the moment, like that's not presenting a view I don't agree with or whatever.

Or like, you know, just feels silly and somewhat unfiltered, then I think I'm okay with it. But every time I feel like I've ever tried to curate an experience or, you know, curate, like, I downloaded that app that makes Instagram stories all like fun, like with borders. And I was just like, yo, this is too much work. Fuck that. I don't know how to do it. I'm just like, you know, what do they call it? Shit posting?

[26:35] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[26:36] Kathryn Gallagher: Isn't that what they say? Yeah, that's like my whole feed. So, I don't know how to do it, but that's what I do.

[26:42] Alan Seales: Well, and everybody's got, like, that's your personality. And it, you know, it works.

[26:46] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah.

[26:46] Alan Seales: It's, what did you say a second ago? You said something that you're like, you want it to be unfiltered. Is that?

[26:52] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah.

[26:53] Kathryn Gallagher: Like, is that you? You just have to be, like, honest and have social verbal diarrhea to feel good at the end of the day?

[27:01] Kathryn Gallagher: I am. I am the worst liar you've ever met. Like, I can't do it. If I can't even, like, pretend to be good at it. I, um, I definitely think that I'm, I've found when I was younger, I was like, tried on 8 million different personalities, 8 million different ways of dressing 8 million different haircuts and all the and it was exhausting. It was so deeply exhausting to try and be other people and to fit into certain trends and to do all these different things that I think now I'm at this place in my life where I'm like, the easiest route is, is the path of least resistance. And that's sort of been for my whole career. You know, I was like, 100% only really immediately at least interested in being a singer songwriter when I was, you know, 17. I mean, all the time, all the way from when I was like a kid.

[28:01] Kathryn Gallagher: You know, 18, 19, up until Spring Awakening happened, I was in sessions as a songwriter. I was writing for other artists. I was gigging all the time, and then Spring Awakening kind of like came along. I mean, literally like fell into my lap almost and changed the course of everything. And that was such a big lesson for me, and the rest of my life has kind of followed suit where I've had a very specific plan of how I was very certain that things were going to work out. And then the world said, "No, you're gonna do this," and then I was like, "Ah, I didn't even know how much I wanted that." And then, you know, Spring Awakening changed my whole life. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be acting, I wouldn't be in Jagged Little Pill, I wouldn't be doing any of this stuff.

And so I do feel like for me, the path of least resistance, which in terms of social media, in terms of my personality, is just like trying to speak from a level of sort of authenticity to my experiences and not really much beyond that. You know, not speaking from books I haven't read, not speaking from stories I haven't lived, and just kind of that has worked so far for my career, for my life, for the version of myself I put on the internet, which of course all of us are putting versions of ourselves. And that doesn't mean that like when I'm crying, I'm live streaming it and talking about, you know, my breakups, but that's what songwriting's for, you know?

[29:36] Alan Seales: Yeah, I find it interesting that you still sound like you're putting filtered content out there in an unfiltered way to feel authentic, if that makes sense.

[29:46] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, and then the need to, I mean, it's sort of like it's art, it's expressing. It's another way for people to express themselves. And like there was, you know, researching for this podcast, I just put your name into Google, right? And then like a bunch of things come up, and there's like the photo shoot you did recently where it's like Kathryn Gallagher goes topless for blah blah blah. And then you posted on Instagram the shoot you did with your friend where it was like you're in lingerie and it's all about like body positivity and just being authentically yourself without, I guess, crossing a line, if that makes sense.

[30:27] Kathryn Gallagher: Well, I do think it's very important for people to, you know, for me, it's like I find it very important to sort of keep my relationships private, sort of. And my sort of like, I don't, there's parts of myself that I do keep for myself because I think that that helps maintain a level of sanity. But when it comes to speaking about my experiences, you know, like when I wrote that essay for Cosmo from that Tyler Shields photo shoot, that was sort of the first time I'd ever spoken about any of that stuff. But I was like, "Oh, well, if I speak honestly about this experience, like I know it's something that I needed to hear when I was 14." So when I was thinking about writing all of that, it was like, "Well, would this experience help someone that's going through this?"

If the answer is yes, then I feel okay being honest about that. And also, you know, in that writing that essay, it was something that I was looking at retroactively. So I was speaking, you know, to my experience with sort of my body from a point of sort of reflection, which I think was helpful in writing it because it didn't feel like, you know, I'm a very sort of emotionally impulsive person. And when I'm speaking with my best friends and I'm explaining a situation, I'm gonna have one point of view that in a year I might have learned an entirely new lesson from it that's far more valuable. And so I try and be very careful about not speaking irrationally in the heat of the moment on the internet in a way that in a year I might think like, "Oh, I don't know if I needed to do that."

Yeah. And also I feel very lucky because that's what I do in songwriting. You know, in those moments that I'm feeling deeply like I need to express something specific and personal, that's when I pick up my guitar and then I will write that specific personal song and then I'll put that on the internet because it's music. And people are much more forgiving of songs than they are tweets and Instagram posts.

[32:42] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's just a little more, a little poetry goes a long way.

[32:47] Kathryn Gallagher: Absolutely. Spring Awakening, you said it kind of fell into your lap. What was the story there?

[32:51] Kathryn Gallagher: Well, actually Ben, who was just here, called me one day, and this was like 2014, I believe. He called me and I was like, "Hey, my friend Michael is doing this tiny production of Spring Awakening in LA, and I played him your voice, and he loves it. Anyway, he's gonna call you." And I was like, "Okay." And then this guy Michael, some guy, you know, some guy Michael. And some guy Ben, he called me, and Michael and I, of course, Michael Arden, Tony nominee, love of my life, angel human. We got coffee, and then about a year and a half later, we were on Broadway. It was kind of like, I mean, of course we did it in LA twice. We did it at the Wallace, and there's a lot of development there. But I'll never forget, it was actually really funny.

When we first met, he was interested in me playing Ilse, which is my dream role, like a hundred percent something I've always wanted to do. I was so thrilled. I thought it was in the bag. I was like, "He was like, 'Yeah, you'd be a perfect Ilse.'" And I was like, "Ah, dreams." And then he was like, "Keep this summer free, these are the dates, etc., etc., all this stuff." It was all sort of lining up, and then I didn't really hear from him for a while. And I was like, "Okay, like that's weird." So I sent him a text to check in. He was like, "Oh, you're going to be getting an email from casting this week." And I was like, "Oh, great, perfect." I didn't hear anything. A week later, I saw like an open casting call on the internet, and I was like, "Well, you could have like told me."

I was like, "I feel so sad about this." So I just like kind of got a sour taste in my mouth and was like all huffy. And then my best friend and I one night, where this is in LA, and we were really craving ice cream. And so we were like, "You know what? We've never been to the gelato place down the street." And we took her 70-pound pit bull, named Rocky, the love of my life, and we walked down the street. And I'm wearing a hot pink SoulCycle sweatshirt and juicy couture pants, some socks and UGG slippers. Basically, I look amazing. And we're walking down the street, and we go inside, and she has to wait outside with the dog. So I go in to get the ice cream, and I'm like hood up, like I'm pretty tired, I'm a little out of it.

And I'm standing in line, and I hear someone say, "Oh, Kathryn." And I was like, "What's in your head, Gallagher? Relax." And it keeps getting louder, and I was like, "You know, that's real." And I turn around and I see Michael Arden sitting there, and I was like, "Oh no, I don't do well with these situations." So I go up to him, and I was like, "Oh my god, hi! Hey, how are you? It is so good to see you. It's amazing to see you right here, right now at this gelato place. I love, what flavor did you get? You're a horrible liar."

[36:06] Kathryn Gallagher: Terrible. What flavor did you get? I always get coffee here, but looks like you go to Rocky Road. Rocky Road is so good. I actually, I'm more of a coffee person, but it's late at night, so I feel like I probably shouldn't even have the coffee portion of it. Anyway, I gotta go because like my roommate's out there with the dog, and like I should get in line. And anyway, I'll just get the ice cream. It was so good to see you. It was so good to see you. Also, I'll see you later, and I just like run away. It was like manic. And so I get all the ice creams, I go outside, and my roommate at the time, Sosi Bacon, an incredible actor, beautiful love, and so she looks at this ice cream that I got her, and she goes, "You got my lemon and vanilla in the same cup."

And I was like, "Yes, but you're not listening. Sosi, like that director of that production, he's inside." And I don't know what to do because he never called, and then I'm just, and I can't believe he never wrote me, and I was just like freaking out. She goes, "I have to go get another cup." And I was like, "I'm going through something right now, and you're just talking." I'm outside with the dog, and now all of a sudden she starts talking to Michael, and it turns out that they had done an episode of The Closer together. And so she brings him outside, and then the four of us, him and our soon-to-be associate director, and we're all just talking. And eventually he goes, "So, um, I will first," I said I was big, and I was like, "So how's your production of Spring Awakening going?"

And he was like, "Going well. Why didn't you come in for your audition?" And I was like, "What?" I was like, "What are you talking about?" And apparently like an email had gotten lost, and I went in two days later, and then he was like, "Hey, you're not right for Ilse, but you'll see why later." And I was like, "Okay, I don't know what that means." He's like, "But I hope you can still come see the show." And I was like, "Sure." And then I go into the studio, I make an album, I'm like living my best life, I'm working on music, and I think that's my sort of game plan. I go to Nashville, like I'm having a great time, and it's my last day in the studio, and Michael calls me, and he's like, "Hey, we just had someone drop out.

You play guitar, right? I know it's a smaller role, but would you be interested in playing the voice of Marta? I need someone, rehearsal starts tomorrow." And I was like, "Yeah." Well, really at first I was like, "I don't know, I'm really focusing on music. I have these tours lined up I might be doing and whatever." And I go inside, and with my producer, we watched the Tony performance from the original Broadway cast, and I was like, "This is my favorite fucking show. Like, who am I kidding? Yes, I will do this." And that was such a benefit for me because I ended up becoming a better guitarist, learning, writing new guitar parts with Duncan Sheik on Broadway, right? And becoming dance captain, which taught me a whole new slew of skills and learning how to sort of run a rehearsal was huge.

And so it ended up being like the greatest gift of all time to have this role where I was like really becoming a skilled guitarist and really learning so much more that I wouldn't have ever done if I had just gotten the role that I thought I wanted. So a huge lesson all around, and you never know what the fuck is gonna happen.

[39:13] Alan Seales: That is so cool. Yeah, everybody's stories are so unique, and that's a really good one. But you are a really bad liar, good actor, bad liar.

[39:25] Kathryn Gallagher: Terrible liar. So then when it closes, you go back to singing, songwriting, and then like it's a couple years between that and now Jagged Little Pill.

[39:36] Kathryn Gallagher: So I had a full-on year and a half of not one callback, not one. Yeah, it was so fun. Yeah, I could not get a job to save my life. I was like, I had reps now. We closed the show on Broadway. I was like my first audition in LA. I went to a producer session. I was like, "I'm hot shit. Like, I'm gonna have a TV show in no time." That was not the case. What followed closing Spring Awakening was truly about a year and a half of dyeing my hair hot pink on and off, a lot of minor heartbreaks, dating the wrong people, falling in love with people who only had no interest in me, which was also my career, a relationship at that point. It had no interest in me. I was like, "Please." I was writing a lot of songs.

I had a lot of sessions. It was just kind of like no man's land for about a year and a half, doing odd gigs here and there. And then what happened was I finally sort of started to get a good pace, and I had met these producers in LA that I was just absolutely obsessed with. I set aside a couple months in the fall of 2017 to begin working on music with them, and I was like so ready to only do that. Right before I left for Los Angeles, my reps called me, and they were like, "Hey, we have this new show that we want you to go in for. It's on Lifetime, but it's Greg Berlanti and Sarah Gamble, and the script is great. Just read the pilot, and your appointment's on like Friday or whatever." I was like, "All right, whatever."

And I was so disenchanted by acting. I was like, "Fuck this. I'm never gonna get it. Why do I even care? Like, this is all so lame." And it was funny because that week I went on a date the night before, and I was like, "Well, it ended badly," and I was just like, "Oh, I hate everything. I'm just ready to leave, and I have this stupid audition in the morning." And I'm just gonna go, haven't read the script, hadn't done anything, and I wake up in a terrible mood. And I finally was like, "I guess I should read this script that I have my audition three hours." Like, I was in such a bratty mood, and I read the script, and I was like, "Oh no, I love it." And now I'm underprepared, and I'm obsessed with it, and it's a character I think I could really get. So I then just like really hunkered down and did a lot of work, a lot of crammed work. I learned my lines.

[42:01] Alan Seales: Welcome back to The Theatre Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Kathryn Gallagher, who is currently starring in Jagged Little Pill on Broadway and is known for her role in the Netflix series YOU.

[42:31] Kathryn Gallagher: Thanks for having me, Alan! I'm really excited to be here.

[43:01] Alan Seales: So, Kathryn, you made your Broadway debut in the Deaf West revival of Spring Awakening. Can you tell us about that experience and how it shaped your career?

[43:31] Kathryn Gallagher: Absolutely! Spring Awakening was such a pivotal moment for me. It was my first time on Broadway, and the whole experience was surreal. I was surrounded by incredibly talented people, and it really opened my eyes to what I wanted to do with my life.

[44:01] Alan Seales: That's amazing! And now you're in Jagged Little Pill, which has such a powerful message. How has playing Bella impacted you personally?

[44:11] Kathryn Gallagher: Playing Bella has been cathartic for me. It has allowed me to confront some of my own past traumas and work through them in a safe space. The character's journey resonates with me deeply, and I think it has helped me grow as both an artist and a person.

[44:21] Alan Seales: It's incredible how art can be a form of therapy. Speaking of therapy, how do you feel about the role of social media in your life as an artist?

[44:31] Kathryn Gallagher: I have a love/hate relationship with social media. On one hand, it can be a great way to connect with fans and share my work, but on the other hand, it can be overwhelming and sometimes detrimental to my mental health.

[44:41] Alan Seales: I can understand that. It seems like a double-edged sword.

[45:11] Kathryn Gallagher: Exactly! I try to find a balance, but it's not always easy.

[45:21] Alan Seales: You mentioned earlier that you were always performing as a child. Can you share a bit about those early experiences?

[45:31] Kathryn Gallagher: Yes! I would put on shows for my invisible audience while brushing my teeth. I think I was always meant to be in this world, and those little moments of creativity really fueled my passion for performing.

[45:41] Alan Seales: That's so charming! It's clear that your love for performance has been a lifelong journey.

[45:51] Kathryn Gallagher: It really has! And I feel so grateful to be able to do what I love every day.

[46:01] Alan Seales: Speaking of gratitude, how has the pandemic affected your perspective on your career and life in general?

[46:11] Kathryn Gallagher: The pandemic has definitely given me a lot of time to reflect. I've realized how much I value connection and the arts. It's been a challenging time, but it has also reinforced my passion for what I do.

[46:21] Alan Seales: That's a beautiful takeaway.

[46:31] Kathryn Gallagher: Thank you! I think it's important to find the silver linings, even in tough situations.

[46:41] Alan Seales: Absolutely. And as we move forward, what are you most excited about in your career?

[46:51] Kathryn Gallagher: I'm really excited to continue exploring new roles and projects. I love the idea of pushing boundaries and telling stories that matter.

[47:01] Alan Seales: That's fantastic! I can't wait to see what you do next.

[47:11] Kathryn Gallagher: Thank you! I'm excited too.

[47:21] Alan Seales: Before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

[47:31] Kathryn Gallagher: Just that I hope everyone is taking care of themselves and finding joy in the little things. Art is such a powerful tool for healing, and I encourage everyone to engage with it in whatever way they can.

[47:41] Alan Seales: Wise words, Kathryn. Thank you so much for joining me today!

[47:51] Kathryn Gallagher: Thank you for having me, Alan! It's been a pleasure.

[48:01] Alan Seales: And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to The Theatre Podcast. Be sure to check out Kathryn in Jagged Little Pill and follow her on social media for updates on her journey. Until next time!

[56:02] Kathryn Gallagher: Brought us all sort of separately into a room and one by one talked to us about our experiences and you know what we were comfortable with, what we weren't comfortable with, if there were no touch areas, if there were triggers, if there were all these different things just so she could know as much about us personally going into it. And then when we choreographed "Predator," everything down to like the beat in which he puts his hands on my thighs because my eyes are closed, that's choreographed. So my body is not going into a sense of panic. So I know at this moment I'm gonna feel, you know, Logan, who's an incredible person and an incredible scene partner in this moment. I know that I'm gonna feel his hands on my thighs and that's gonna prepare my body.

And so working with, and we tap in and tap out sort of at the beginning and end of every show, and so that prepares me and my body to know what's happening is expected. And if my body doesn't sort of go into shock and into panic when my eyes are closed on the ground, so it's been really huge in making that sort of a sustainable scene because I don't really know how we could have done it any other way. And the other big thing that she taught me was how our body does, regardless of all of these precautions, it does trap trauma. And so the biggest thing we can do is like to shake it out, to dance it out. So she's like every night after the show, literally like shut the door, play your favorite song and jump around and just like shake out that trauma.

'Cause that's like, I mean, you see animals do it, they shake when they're scared and that's like really tension. And so it's been really, really helpful to me to have these sort of, you know, tools to work through it because it is, and my cast is amazing and sort of they check in with me often because, you know, they know sort of both personally where I'm coming from with everything and quite, you know, and just in the show that it's sort of an intense thing to do so often. And so, you know, everyone is always really kind about checking in with me and how I'm doing sort of mentally and making sure that I'm okay, which I always think is just so, I'm always like kind of blown away by my company's kindness and care and attention in that way.

But Claire has really given extraordinary tools and making it feel so routine and so sort of, I don't know if clinical is the right word, but contained, I think is maybe correct, deliberate. Yeah, it's like this is the protocol, this is how it goes, and anything beyond that is, you know, that would sort of disrupt the pattern doesn't exist. So it's like we're in our routine.

[59:00] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's a good way to explain it as choreography. And I didn't even think about that sort of thing because when I was watching the number, like I was genuinely surprised at how, as actors, how intimate that scene is because you see, you know, you see simulated sex and you see nudity on stage every now and then, and it's all kind of just like, you can always tell that there's separation. But in this number, there is nothing. There are hands everywhere. And to know that it's all choreographed beat by beat somehow makes me feel better.

[59:38] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. It definitely is, you know, I think it's something that our creative team and our producers were so adamant about making sure that we were all very comfortable in what we, you know, what we ended up presenting, but also to make sure that what we were presenting was true to reality. And we didn't want anything to feel inauthentic and we didn't want anything to feel overly indulgent or there for shock value. So everything we tried to be very, very deliberate and approaching from sort of an intellectual standpoint of like, what do we need to tell the story? Nothing more, nothing less, kind of. And that's sort of where, you know, my trust falls so, so heavily in Diane and Diablo and Larbi and Claire and our entire team.

You know, I trust them with my life. So I felt very, very taken care of in all of that. And even still in being taken care of, it's still like there's definitely days where I'm like finish the show and I'm like in my dressing room and I just like cry and I'm like, okay, right now my body needs to just like finish feeling this, you know? And it's really sweet because in the scene with Elizabeth in the kitchen, that's different every day. Sometimes there's no tears and, you know, a lot of times there's middle tears and then sometimes it's just a waterfall coming out of my eyes. And always on those days I have cast members coming up to me after the show being like, hey, how's it going? Like, how you feeling? Are you like, you know, do you want to go get some dinner? Like, it's just such a, it's such an incredibly kind and compassionate work environment and company that I just feel really lucky.

[1:01:22] Alan Seales: Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, I found an article too that your castmate Norah Sheehy, you know, she's very open about her borderline personality disorder and she's been interviewed about that and was going through a manic episode, I think, when she either auditioned or during the workshop. I can't remember, but she talked to the creative team and was like, they were like, oh yeah, cool, cool, we're all good, we're all accepting here. And I feel like in a show where you to be authentic, you have to go to such dark places because of all of the topics that this show covers, yeah, you're gonna learn so much about your castmates that in other situations you probably would not.

[1:02:00] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, like deeply personal type of things. Like in, you know, with the statistics on sexual assault and however many women there are in the cast, like it's a given that some of them have gone through some of this and represent, right? Like honestly, I had, I guess, and that was something I told my cast in the lab. I was like, I get this, I've been there, I know this. And it's something that my company was immediately, you know, warm and open and not indulgent about. And it's a really fine line and there's so many other examples. Like, you know, we have someone in our company who's dealt with all of the things in our show, you know, like at least one person has dealt with one part of our show and spoken with great compassion and great honesty about their experience. And I think all of that has enhanced our show to such a deep place that it's, yeah, it's been really, it's a really extraordinary group of people and we're just lucky to have that company.

[1:03:04] Alan Seales: Well then it totally, it totally makes sense that your body holds the trauma and you got off stage and if you're, seriously though, if you're reliving your own trauma and you're doing that for the benefit of an audience, a paying audience, but of course that's gonna bring some of it. And then now your mom's saying you seem lighter, like being able to work through your own issues and let that go and keep it on and maybe even compartmentalize it on stage, like no wonder. Yeah, like that's gotta feel so good.

[1:03:42] Kathryn Gallagher: And working with the Joyful Heart Foundation, which was started by Mariska Hargitay, who is like a big sister to me and of course has, you know, the sort of a very similar experience to mine where her job, you know, she is constantly speaking with survivors and people are constantly speaking with her about their experience. And when she came to see the show, I mean, and I've been, I've texted her when I first got the job and I was like, hey, I'm gonna need your help. It's like, I'm gonna need your help and support and love, which of course she is like, if you've ever met Mariska, she is just like a wellspring of love and joy and warmth and she's the best big sister I could ask for. But she started the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is an incredible organization that its main priority is to end the rape kit backlog.

I don't know if you know anything about that, but there are hundreds of thousands of untested rape kits and police reports calling women whores and sluts and clearly she wanted it because look what she was wearing and she's a drunk slut. I mean, you literally using this terminology, like I'm not being sort of, I'm not here for shock effect here on official police reports.

[1:05:02] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:05:02] Kathryn Gallagher: Calling women sluts and whores and drunk bitches. It's, I mean, it's atrocious. You should watch "I Am Evidence," it's the documentary they made and it will absolutely blow your mind, the justice system and its corruption. I know that's not news to anyone, but it is still shocking. And so, you know, in working with them and hearing survivor stories and all of this, it's allowed me to have a level of, I guess, unity, of sort of camaraderie and of an awareness of how crucial it is that we tell these stories now more than ever. And that, you know, when you do go through something like this, it's entirely isolating and it's filled with shame and what did I do and how did I, I and I deserve this and this was my fault and what could I have done differently.

And you're constantly in the shame spiral in your own brain when the truth is, is that it's not your shame to feel. That's something that one of the survivors say in "I Am Evidence," and I say it all the time. It's like, you're feeling shame that doesn't belong to you. And I think that watching so many survivors be affected by Bella's story and her strength and her bravery and how that's released so many survivors of their shame and their, you know, dark, twisty spirals, that it's just become a huge gift for me to get to be on stage every night telling Bella's story and standing in her strength. So that I just feel like I'm borrowing, you know, it's like this is just an incredible character that was written and I feel very lucky that I get to be the person that brings her to life right now. And she teaches me more about strength and bravery every day than I could have really ever imagined I'd learn in my lifetime.

[1:07:11] Alan Seales: Are you still, you're still discovering more about Bella every show?

[1:07:15] Kathryn Gallagher: Oh god, yeah. Yeah, every show. It's like, you know, you walk off stage and you're like, oh, that was a new one. I didn't know that layer was there. But you know, Bella and Catherine are very, very intertwined and are very, very, they inform each other every day, I would say.

[1:07:30] Alan Seales: All right, well I absolutely love that. I think that's a great place to wrap this up here. So the three questions I ask everybody to wrap up the episode. The first one is, what motivates you?

[1:07:39] Kathryn Gallagher: Fear of failure, fear of boredom, and an inability to shut up.

[1:07:45] Alan Seales: Okay, the second question is, what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[1:07:51] Kathryn Gallagher: Oh my god, relax, you're fine. Like I think that young Catherine was, no one's ever been more driven than me at 12, including me at 26. And so I think I would just say like, you're allowed to take a deep breath and sometimes look around yourself and realize you're doing okay and pat yourself on the back and just like take a deep breath. And also the skinniest you're ever gonna be in your life is gonna be when your heart is hurting the most and it's not gonna feel good and it's not gonna make you happy. So enjoy your life and stop worrying about what you're eating and what you look like.

[1:08:38] Alan Seales: Beautiful. Okay, and then the final question is, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[1:08:45] Kathryn Gallagher: "Spring Awakening."

[1:08:48] Alan Seales: There you go.

[1:08:49] Kathryn Gallagher: It's my fave. Not my production, to be. I mean, I love my production. It would just be weird to watch myself every day. And plus I'd be in it, so maybe someone else could replace me. I don't know, maybe the original Broadway cast just 'cause nostalgia.

[1:09:03] Alan Seales: Yeah, good answer. So we can find you on Instagram at Kathryn Gallagher, on Twitter at Kathryn G. You're on YouTube and SoundCloud, just your username is Kathryn Gallagher on both of those, and you're online on the web at KathrynGallagherMusic.com.

[1:09:20] Kathryn Gallagher: Yes, anywhere else? Apple Music, Spotify, all the streaming places.

[1:09:26] Alan Seales: And that's it, that's everywhere.

[1:09:28] Kathryn Gallagher: Yeah, find you.

[1:09:30] Alan Seales: Okay, you can get more of me at TheTheatrePodcast.com. Support this podcast at TheTheatrePodcast.com slash Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N. You can get me on Instagram and Twitter at Theatre_Podcast. Please leave a rating, leave a review wherever you are listening. And thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music.

[1:09:47] Kathryn Gallagher: And it's Jukebox the Ghost.

[1:09:48] Alan Seales: Yeah, you will hear Jukebox the Ghost. They're my boys.

[1:09:53] Kathryn Gallagher: Well, thank you, Kathryn. This has been so fun. You have been so authentic. I greatly, greatly enjoyed this.

[1:10:03] Kathryn Gallagher: Thank you so much for having me.