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[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names and part of the Broadway Podcast Network. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and this episode is with the Executive Producer for So You Think You Can Dance, Jeff Thacker. It was interesting because we were supposed to do this interview in person a few days ago, but we had to cancel because the in-person auditions for this fall season of So You Think You Can Dance were cancelled here in New York due to the coronavirus pandemic. At the moment, they're still planning on going live in August, assuming everything's going to be taken care of by then, but they've adapted and continue to accept submissions online. The stories he has about the show's creation and the show's evolution just floor me.

I mean, he was there from the beginning, from day one, and he still, to this day, as the Executive Producer, loves to be part of the audition process and the selection process. He's very, very hands-on, and he has so much passion for the show. And as someone with a dance background, he has a dance background, he's thrilled to bring the world of dance and choreography into everyone's everyday vernacular, when maybe back in 2005, most people didn't know what a choreographer did or wasn't really in the Broadway scene or whatnot. He's sort of bridged the gap, and the conversation we have is just really remarkable. So, Jeff, thank you for a great conversation. As always, before we get into this episode, please visit me online at thetheaterpodcast.com. You can support the podcast.

I'm currently using all the proceeds from my Patreon account to have transcriptions made so that those who may not be able to hear the episodes can still experience them. You can visit my Patreon page by visiting ttp.fm.com. Please visit me on Instagram and Twitter, theater underscore podcast. And now, everyone, please enjoy this episode with Jeff Thacker.

[2:01] Alan Seales: Today's guest is a five-time Emmy nominee for his work on So You Think You Can Dance. He's the show's executive producer and has been with it since day one, when it first aired back in 2005. Now, 252 episodes later, the show is still as strong as ever, and helping with the casting of contestants, judges, and choreographers, he's partially responsible for making the careers of some of the biggest names on Broadway now. Jeff Thacker, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:26] Jeff Thacker: Thank you. I mean, it's something I've been listening to all the time, so I'm very honored that you have allowed me to step into the Broadway podcast world, which, of course, I absolutely love.

[2:39] Alan Seales: Well, it's interesting. You reached out to me after my episode with Sonia Taya, who's a choreographer from Moulin Rouge! and Sing Street, and has worked with So You Think You Can Dance for a couple seasons.

[2:51] Jeff Thacker: Oh, no, no. She's been there since season four, so she's been there 12 years, 12 seasons.

[2:58] Alan Seales: Well, so how long... You've been there since the very beginning, right? Like, all 252 episodes?

[3:05] Jeff Thacker: We are... I've been there since day one, correct? And this season, we're about to celebrate our 300th episode. So yes, day one. And if you could see me, you'll see I have gray hair to prove the fact.

[3:18] Alan Seales: Well, so I was going to ask you if you are going to have a season, because we were supposed to have this interview in person here in New York, and it got canceled, and we scheduled it to have this online virtual interview, because your auditions... You were coming to New York to do auditions for So You Think You Can Dance, and I think I saw that that in Miami, and there was a third audition location that was all canceled. The auditions were canceled because of the coronavirus, right?

[3:49] Jeff Thacker: Correct, yeah. Correct.

[3:51] Alan Seales: So are you still having a season?

[3:53] Jeff Thacker: Absolutely. At the moment, we are still having a season. So obviously, because of the restrictions and regulations that were imposed, and quite rightly so, of course, the in-person auditions that we'd normally have, our pre-screen auditions, had to be canceled because of the rules and regulations. Hence, you and I are having this self-isolation interview. Although I can see you, and you can see me, but thank goodness that others can't see me in this lockdown situation. So we took advice, and obviously, we decided not to have the in-person auditions. But the auditions actually started out, and we have done this for the past few seasons, to be online submissions. So we asked the dancers to put online a minimum of one minute of a combo or a routine that they've done based on the style they would like to audition with.

So that part, the first part, is still the same. Now, with it not being to be able to see me in person, we have to think of the next stage we can do for the audition process, which we have in plan. And all those dancers that have gone through to the next stage will receive a surprise email from us asking them to do something, which they have to then send back to us. And we will take the next stage. So it's exciting for us, because we've never done the auditions this way. So it's going to be something incredibly new, very exciting. I think that we're going to be surprised by what we see back. And of course, the kids don't know this yet, because it is a surprise. We like to keep little twists and surprises.

So the audition process is continuing, just in a very different way. And I think that's going to be very exciting for all of us. I know the dancers are very pleased that So You Think is coming back. And as I say, at the moment, Fox are absolutely planning for us to come back with a vengeance. And we will be on our screens very soon.

[5:56] Alan Seales: Are you going to be able to air the videos that you're asking for and the things that you're going to have the people audition with? You're going to plan on airing that in lieu of having a full production crew on site?

[6:06] Jeff Thacker: Yeah, correct. I mean, I think if we get some amazing performances, and we get some amazing characters and personalities, we're going to want America to see them. We want America to see what we see. So without question. So what we're going to ask them to send back to us is very important to them. Because what I always say in the impersonal auditions, it's not just what you can do, it's who you are. And So You Think You Can Dance has always been based on that combination of what you can do and who you are. And so it's very important for the first time, I think that we're going to see this come across on camera, because it's a TV show. So it's another element. So yeah, I think we will definitely let America see those people who are memorable and impressive.

[6:50] Alan Seales: What happens when you get to the live round, the elimination round? Because there's always a big audience. You can't have an audience right now. Are you just kind of hoping that the quarantine is going to be done by that point?

[7:02] Jeff Thacker: Yes, so we obviously we hope that by... I mean, we are due to be on air in August, because we were planned to go straight after the Olympics. Well, as we know, the Olympics have been postponed. So all the networks are looking at their summer schedule. And we have always been planned to start our show in August. And so by then we hope the rules and restrictions will be lifted or somewhat relaxed so that we can do this. If they allow us to do it with an audience, that will be great. But if not, then I feel that we will still be able to show America the talent that we've been discovered. And obviously, going into this season, the judges will have a good say in who's going to actually make it into season 17. Because at the end of all of this, we will sit down with them and go, here's what we've seen. Here are the block of dancers. Now tell us what you think. So the process will continue, but very much on an on-screen situation.

[8:00] Alan Seales: You said something interesting, that you sit down with the judges and tell them what's going on. How far in advance do the judges see everybody? And as an EP, are you helping guide some of who actually makes it on camera based on personality and whatnot? I guess this is reality TV, and people are like, oh, reality TV is all rigged. So I'm sort of asking, how much is truly authentic versus, we want this person to be here because they have a great backstory versus, you know what I'm trying to say?

[8:33] Jeff Thacker: Yeah, of course. We have always, always, always, because we don't know. It's not a scripted show. They're not actors. They don't come in with resumes. We have no idea what they've done before. Normally, for me on a pre-screen, I never ask their name. I never ask where they're from. I never ask what their age. I just say, OK, what style have you chosen? Now, let's see what you do. So I never, there's never any background for me. So in as far as how we process this, it's reality the whole way for us. So for example, we always have a filtration system. We have a grading system, and that's whether it's in a person or online. In a normal audition, you'll get a choreographer into a room and you'll have 40 dancers and they'll whistle it down to 20, then down to 10, and then maybe down to five.

So you have to take on what you can see. That's why I think it's very important. We also have an entire team of producers that, if I say, oh, I think this person is great, or I think this person is like a rough diamond, they're raw, and with some polishing, they will always follow up, just like you're doing with me. We will sit face to face or we'll sit and talking and they will come up with an idea of who they are. Because in the auditions, if they get through me, and I'm tough, Alan, I am tough, very tough. This has been my profession since I was 18, so I'm very, very tough.

[9:54] Alan Seales: In producing or dancing?

[9:56] Jeff Thacker: Dancing, choreographing, producing. Boom, boom, boom.

[9:59] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah.

[10:00] Jeff Thacker: So based on that, and if they get through from me, the producer will sit with them on a one-to-one straight after and find out a little bit more about them. I always say dancer and dull begin with the same letter. You've got to tell us which one you are at this point. We're not just looking for dancers. It's never America's best dancer, it's America's favorite, and favorite means we like you or we don't. So it's reality is all the way down the line. Then when the judges finally have a decision, they will read notes about what they are, what the producers have found out about them, and see their performance. So again, it is, and we don't know, we're surprised sometimes, good and bad, when people are on the show.

So all I can say to you is it's not like an agent sending an actor into an audition and a resume sitting in front, blank piece of paper. It doesn't matter what you've done before, nothing or everything. What you bring in or what you send us on that time is what I take you for. I don't, seriously, I never go and look, if I see an audition piece, I never go into Instagram and see how many followers they've got or what they've done before. I think it's, I always, same level, what you present to me is what I'm going to take your audition on.

[11:18] Alan Seales: That's really nice to hear, especially in the Broadway community here in New York. So much of all things being equal, you're trying to cast a lead role in this person versus that person, and nine times out of 10 now, the person with more social media followers might get the gig, right? So it's become, the landscape has changed, and it's interesting because So You Think You Can Dance, it started in 2005, right? Yeah. And YouTube, I don't think, came around until like 06 or 07, and so-

[11:52] Jeff Thacker: I think it was, and also social media was like Myspace, boom. I mean-

[11:57] Alan Seales: Right, right. Bebo and Myspace, yeah, Friendster.

[12:00] Jeff Thacker: Yes.

[12:02] Alan Seales: Everybody listening now is like, what the hell? But for you, do you go exclusively on who submits themselves, or do you actually have a team that's going out and looking through YouTube now? Because what I'm trying to get to is how casting has changed from 05 to now 2020.

[12:21] Jeff Thacker: Well, I mean, there's so many platforms of social media available. I'll give you an example, not so much really dancers, but certainly choreographers, because we are very aware, we always look out for new dancers, new choreographers. We don't reach out to dancers unless we feel, we might reach out to them and say, hey, we've just seen, we've been sent this, or we've looked at this, and is this something that you'd be interested in? Same for choreographers. I would give you an example of an idea, let's just take a choreographer, and they go, oh my God, this choreographer, they've got 17.8 million hits on this piece. And the reason is, is because it has the word Beyonce in it, and everybody who likes Beyonce is going to click into everything.

A fan is short for fanatic, and we all love those people. We have a great fan base, and I think that we are great fanatics, or so you think. But to me, social hits doesn't necessitate talent without question. So I personally don't go out and necessarily look at anything online, on any social platform, unless somebody says, oh, have a look at this, this is what I did for, this is what I did to. So that's, again, open book, open plan, open canvas. Just show us who you are, both choreographers and dancers. So that's how, we really are a real reality-based show.

[13:54] Jeff Thacker: We don't go out with established talent. Most of the choreographers, when I came here in 2005, I didn't know anybody. The only person, the only person that I had worked with in the UK was when I was producing a Kylie Minogue special and I came across Michael Rooney and he had asked Dan Caraty to help him out and Dan was the only person I knew. I didn't know anybody from Adam. So it didn't matter who they were when I came over. I wanted to meet them and see them. And that's how it's progressed. That's how it's progressed.

[14:30] Alan Seales: That's interesting. So I was, this is kind of an unusual episode because it's, you know, it's not specifically Broadway related. So I was going to skip over like the personal history stuff, but you said something that really piqued my interest was that you started out as a dancer and now have become an executive producer. So actually, I do want to know your history because it sounds really, really fun.

[14:53] Jeff Thacker: Well, I started out very late in dancing because that wasn't it. It wasn't anything that I wanted to do. I actually wanted to be a probation officer. There you go. That's what I wanted to do. No kidding. So I still think I'm doing the same thing, but it just has music and movement around it. That's what I wanted. That's what I started out to be. And I was very fortunate because, you know, way back then, the entertainment on TV was prolific. There was so many entertainment shows. I'm talking about late 70s, and I was very fortunate. I wasn't the best technical dancer. I wasn't the best trained dancer. I was a very raw natural dancer. And my mentor was an English, famous English choreographer called Dougie Squires, who had a television group, had their own show live every night on Saturday night.

And he always took dancers that were all shapes and sizes and forms and race. It didn't matter. It was who you were. So I was very fortunate. And in fact, Nigel Lithgow, who created the show with Simon Fuller, he was in the same group, but the generation before me. So he went through the same process as I did, but I was a generation down from him. I'm not going to say he's older than me, but he's older than me.

[16:06] Jeff Thacker: And so I danced on TV. TV was my world, and I learned TV. And then it got to a point whereby I thought I should move on and try choreography. I didn't know if I could do it, but I just felt I wanted to get out when I really, I was at the top of my, I thought, my dancing career. And so they were desperate. They were desperate for choreographers because the work was still, again, so much in demand. And I got one thing which led to another, which led to TV shows, TV series, and then music videos started to come in. And I was very fortunate to be asked to, I was working with a famous photographer who was a 60s photographer even before me, but he was a famous photographer and he asked me to come and do some music videos with him working with models.

And I went in and did this video and I thought, oh my God, it's driving me mad because these girls can't even put one foot in front of the other. So I literally just took a day training them to do step, touch, step, touch, sway, sway. That turned out to be the Robert Palmer video. And the Robert Palmer video went absolutely ballistic. I mean, it was addicted to love, just went crazy. So I ended up doing all the Robert Palmer videos and then I worked through musicians, doing people like Rod Stewart and all stuff like that, still with the television career. And then it got to a point where I personally couldn't keep up with the way dancing was going. It was progressing so quickly. And, you know, hip hop is not my style.

I love it. I wish I could do it. You know, I've battled Twitch. I've battled Phoenix and Farside. You named fiction. I'm not saying I won, but I battled them and I love it. I just felt that I was in a position where I couldn't do what was the next stage or what was requested and I didn't want to put an assistant in to do my work for me. So I stayed in the profession that I knew, which was television and went into the production side and worked my way up from being an associate producer to producer, senior, then an executive producer. And then I'd worked with Nigel and Simon Fuller back in the UK. And when they'd created So You Think, they both asked me to come over, which initially was for 10 weeks. And next month, April, April the 21st, I would have been here 16 years. So that's my career in a nutshell, really.

[18:30] Alan Seales: Wow. Wow. Do you have insight into why they created the show? Because in the late 90s, Survivor was the first reality show that really, really hit, sort of globally, I guess. Because before that, there was Real World and Road Rules on MTV, which had a very specific demographic. But Survivor was the first show that I can think of that really just went apeshit on a global scale. And then, I guess, so So You Think started in 2005, that must have meant that a year or two prior, Nigel and Simon were talking about this. And do you have any insight into how the genesis happened?

[19:13] Jeff Thacker: I do. Back in the UK, both Simon and Nigel had worked on a thing called Pop Stars. And Pop Stars went into Pop Idol. Well, actually, Pop Idol went to Pop Stars. It started with Pop Idol first. And it was such a phenomenal hit over there that they were asked to come to America. And of course, they created one of the biggest, I think the biggest television phenomenon of all time in reality shows, which was American Idol, globally, really. And they decided, they thought, well, if this works for singers, maybe it would work for dancers. How would we get that? How would we do that? And they started to create this idea and this format to use what they created for American Idol, put it into dancing.

Mike Darnell, who was at Fox at the time, loved the idea and ran with it. We did one season, and to be honest, I'll be very honest, Alan, when we were doing this, it was like, when they called me over, they said, we're looking for a producer, because Nigel and I and Simon, we knew each other. So we're all, Nigel and I obviously had a huge dance background. So we knew what we were talking about. We were coming in with some foundations and it was developing and moving. And I said, season one, we never did the same show once. We made it up as we went along, really. And it proved, well, we did because we didn't know what was going to happen about it. And so therefore, you know, at that time, nobody knew about the show.

No one, we had, nobody knew, no one was training to come on to So You Think, which they do now. They spend 10 years of their time training to come on to So You Think. So we literally struck a gold mine and a diamond mine, raw, polishing people that become such firm favorites on the show. So the show was evolving and developing the whole way. And I think if you took from then, 2005 to now, nobody knew what the word choreographer meant. Nobody knew what the word contemporary was. It's suddenly we invented a whole language that globally, dance, the global language, which enabled it to be such a huge, a huge success. Thank you to the American viewers and to, you know, to people that love the show. And I put this show on in 31 countries around the world. Dance around the world has been amazing.

[21:24] Jeff Thacker: And switching back to just hooking on what you said about Broadway. One of the things that we definitely wanted to do was to cover as many different styles and genres and dance that we could. And Broadway and TV has always had such a divide in my experience. I agree. The two have never twanged to me. You may get a choreographer being on the Tony Awards or you may get a choreographer from Broadway come to do the Academy Awards. But when we reached out and this was season one, we really wanted to bridge that gap and invite Broadway choreographers, established choreographers and bridge that gap because I think we offered something to each other. And that's what we wanted to do. And I didn't know any Broadway choreographers at all except for the most famous ones that of course were either no longer with us or, you know, wouldn't do it.

And that has changed. And we've made a point of changing and opening up to so many new choreographers. And Broadway has opened so many doors for us and we've opened so many doors for them because the marriage that we have had has been amazing.

[22:40] Jeff Thacker: And if you look at the choreographers now, like Warren Carlyle, Andy Blankenbuehler, Sonia Tyre, Mia Michaels, you know, and it's also based on, Alan, honestly, on availability too because lots of Broadway choreographers are tied up, but it's, you know, it's our Blackstone, you know, it's just, it's a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for us to share their talent and for us to give America a showcase for them and a platform for them that hopefully they have experienced. I mean, Warren Carlyle, for example, like he rings up and says, are we back? You know, are we back? I go, yes. He goes, oh my God, I've got this and this. And he goes into a rehearsal room and sends me 30 seconds of a routine.

He goes, I want to do this. And you go, oh my God, you know, and he's has people like Melanie Moore and Ricky Ubeda and Gabby Diaz, but are now working for him and have worked for him. So we are absolutely delighted to have had Broadway come home to us and for Broadway to open their doors to television, which I'm glad the snobbery, which has existed, is so far been broken down and the acceptance and embracing has been amazing, amazing.

[24:00] Jeff Thacker: You know, I think in my opinion, part of that is what we were talking about earlier in the social media game, because now Broadway people, like TV and film, and you can take that home with you. You can watch it in a theater. And then when it comes out on, at first it was beta and then it was VHS and then it was DVD and now it's all streaming, right? So you can take that home with you and watch it whenever you want it. Broadway is a live experience, live, I put in air quotes, and you go to a theater, you see it, you walk away and you can't take it anymore. You can't see it anymore. But now with social media, you can connect with the people. There's places like Broadway HD that stream shows and like so many people now have podcasts, the Broadway Podcast Network obviously is like bringing all of the Broadway community together and the new media podcasting.

And I think that, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sort of assuming here, but I would suspect there was probably a lot of reluctance to let TV and film into the Broadway community because, but I feel like they had no choice. There was, with the social media game, bridging everybody and putting everyone more or less on equal playing field, because anyone can get a social media account, then all of a sudden these people who have no voice previously can have a voice and be taken home. Like you can take your leads home from Broadway and put them in your pocket on social media, on Instagram or Twitter or TikTok or whatever it is.

[25:31] Jeff Thacker: I think now, yes, I don't disagree, but then when we started, there wasn't, as we said earlier, there weren't these platforms. And I remember seeing some work from Andy Blankenbuehler and I got in contact with Andy and I said, listen, would you consider coming to do something for So You Think? And he said, yeah, well, what would you want? How would you want it to be? And I always say now, now it's what you need to do is to create something just specifically for So You Think. Andy Blankenbuehler came in season four, same season as Sonia, came up for season four and did two routines for us. And we, certainly the show, we call them our family once you come into the fold, we stay in touch. And Andy came up and did two routines.

One was New York, New York, I just remember it coming down. And we gave the choreographer the opportunity to do what they do, to create. The difference between So You Think with choreographer and choreography is that normally on Broadway shows or TV shows, they're given a script, they're given a book, they're given guidance by the director and say, could you come away and do that? We say to them on So You Think, here's a blank canvas, here's a paint, do what you want. So we give the choreographer the freedom, the creativity to come up. Not all choreographers can do that. There are lots of choreographers that need that structure to work to, but the choreographers and choreography that has worked on our show to have a full creative, if you think about it, we do 13 to 15 original pieces of choreography every single show, that's what we do.

So to give the choreographer the freedom to do it has been absolutely amazing. And I'll go back to Sonia who was, I met Sonia, she came, I like to meet all the choreographers, one-to-one to me. Dance is a medium as you, as soon as you can put a bag over your head, turn the lights off, you can still hear the voice. Dancing is a communication. It's that contact, it's that experience and embracing. So I like to meet all the choreographers. So when I go to the cities like New York, I hook up and we'll have meetings with new ones and blah, blah, blah. Sonia came into the office, we didn't talk about dance or choreography once. We literally, I fell in.

[27:47] Jeff Thacker: I fell in love with her persona and her personality, which has never diminished as far as I'm concerned. We went away and she came back and one of her first routines she did was The Garden with Mark Canemora and Courtney Galliano, which was crazy. I mean, Sonia is out there. She's out there and on it. And I remember a few, you know, she came back and created some amazing things. And I said to her, I said, I'd like you to do a contemporary piece. And she said, I'm not a contemporary choreographer. And I said, well, you're a choreographer, aren't you? She said, I'm a jazz choreographer. And I said, well, I'll tell you what, you go away and do a contemporary piece and I'll tell you whether I think you're a contemporary choreographer.

She came back and it was beautiful. It was beautiful. And so the choreographers that we have been so lucky to have on the show, like Warren Carlyle, I think is the most amazing choreographer. And I've known Warren for many years when he was a dancer too, back in the UK. Warren has a specific style that we like on So You Think with dancers and choreographers making your own handprint. And to be able to have that will give us the flexibility of having those different styles. I mean, Warren is a killer. He's a killer when he puts something on. But boy, oh boy, does he produce the goods. And we are so proud of all of them, of all our choreographers that have produced such amazing Broadway shows and continue to and now use some of our dancers.

Because, for example, I mean, I don't know if I know if I'm allowed to say this, has the cast of Music Man been announced? Some of it. Not, I don't mean Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster. But yeah, there's been a couple of supporting roles that have been announced. But we can always hold this episode until I will tell you that some of the faces, some of the profound faces that you've seen on So You Think You Can Dance audition for Warren and use them. You know, so it's absolutely our Blackstone. So many dancers, you know, and if I look at something like Melanie Moore, who's in Hello Dolly, and now she's just obviously the things are on hiatus. But she is playing the daughter in To Kill a Mockingbird on the national tour.

Amazing. Ricky Ubeda is the understudy on West Side Story. Gabby Diaz, Ricky, Jess Loprato, Ariana DeBose, who was in season one. And we could kick ourselves in the butt because in season six, she went week one. She was eliminated week one. I remember. Yes. She's now starring in Maria in West Side Story. We are so incredibly, incredibly proud of our family. We really, really are. So again, I think that I do believe that and someone will correct me and I'm sure or they'll write letters to you. That's fine. But I do believe that I do believe that So You Think You Can Dance is the main outlet and show to have embraced Broadway and its choreographers and its choreography with So You Think. But I'll tell you an interesting story if I have time.

[30:52] Alan Seales: Oh, please.

[30:52] Jeff Thacker: Yeah. OK, so season one, I was looking for a Broadway choreographer and I couldn't find one. Marty Koudelka, who choreographs and creates Justin Timberlake's tours. I said to Marty, I'm looking for a Broadway choreographer. And he goes, oh, a friend of mine's in Fosse. He choreographs. I said, oh, does he? What's his name? Says Tice D'Orio. So I said, oh, I'm going to call him on the phone, called Tice and said, hey, listen, Marty's recommended you. We're looking for a choreographer because, oh, I'm in Fosse. Oh, dang. And he goes, but I've got a week's holiday. So I said, OK, will you come out to New York? Will you come out? He said, sure. He came out. He choreographed for the very first season.

It was a great hit. It was steam heat. He'd never choreographed in his life before. Really? No. He laughs about it now. He took, when I say choreography as in a performance piece on millions of, in front of millions of people. He took the opportunity. He took the challenge and he did and he delivered. And that's what Tice does. And now, you know, season four, he won an Emmy for his choreography. It was with Will Wingfield and Jessica King. And he did what we call the Adam and Eve number. And he won an Emmy for that. And now look who he works with. So we are again, so incredibly proud. Look at Travis Wall. Travis Wall. I cut Travis on his very first audition. I cut him. And, uh, he came back to a second city and got in.

He was the runner up that year. Season two, 2006. He went on to become the first, he went on to be nominated. Not the first contestant, the very first contestant ever to be nominated for choreography. And so you think it was Dimitri Chaplin for an Argentine tango, but Travis got nominated. He's been the most prolific nominated contestant and Emmy award winner. And I think it's full circle to come on audition, to be cut, to come on the show, to be a contestant, to choreograph, to be nominated and to win. It's given us the kudos of what we have and all our choreographers that have won Emmys for choreography. They've worked very, very, very hard for it. It's one of these things that's been around for so long that it's become, it's become an institution in many ways.

[33:15] Alan Seales: Why do you think that is, Jeff? Why do you think So You Think You Can Dance has sustained and is still popular as it is?

[33:24] Jeff Thacker: Oh, gosh. I think it, for several reasons, one of which is that it brings to the forefront of pop culture something that many people are curious about and don't have experience with. Like for me personally, I love movement. I love being athletic. But the straight male thing that I was encouraged to do as a kid in a small town, North Carolina, was go do sports. It was not sing. It was not dance. It was not perform or anything like that. And so when I get so much enjoyment watching the physical aspect of, I guess I'm kind of rambling, but it's like it's a physicality that I wish I had experience with. And I can see myself in some of these kids and they are, you know, I'm 39. They're younger than me.

Obviously, I can't move like that anymore. But I never could because I didn't have the training. Right. But it's a way for me to experience something through the television that is much more accessible than on a stage. And that's why I was attracted to acting and stage in the first place is that it's a home. It's artistic. It's expressive. It brings a family together. And for you and your team to be able to put that on national TV and international TV, I think, is bringing people together. Art brings people together. And this is an expression. It's one of the highest expressions of art that you found out how to commercialize in a good way. And the trickle down effect from that is like you were saying, it's just when you have a platform like TV, then all of a sudden you start to win awards and then you start to go back to Broadway and then you start to do tours.

Again, look at Ari DeBose. I've seen her. We both come from the same place in North Carolina. So I know her from long, long ago. And just to see Stepping Stone, Stepping Stone, Stepping Stone, and it makes total sense. It makes total sense how everybody just wants to connect with each other, connect with the dance, connect with the music, connect with the movement. And then the way that the show is narrated and edited makes everyone seem real and authentic.

[35:50] Jeff Thacker: Well, we're live, we're live. So we don't even edit. We're live, live.

[35:52] Alan Seales: Well, like all of the backstory stuff.

[35:54] Jeff Thacker: Oh, yes, yes, of course. Yes, the narrative, which I think is very important. So I'll ask you a question. If we take the dance community and the dance fans and people, why do you think it appeals to people that have not even know what a pirouette was? They didn't know what contemporary was. What do you think that is the appeal that So You Think has with those people that know nothing about dance and nothing about technique?

[36:21] Alan Seales: I think it's just awe-inspiring. It feels good to see amazing movement with music that touches you at a skill level so high. I always say on the podcast that being on Broadway is the Olympics of theater.

[36:41] Jeff Thacker: Oh, yes.

[36:42] Alan Seales: So I don't know how to throw a javelin properly, but I love to watch it. I don't know, you know, I played soccer, so I know the rules. Like the luge, the luge freaks me out. I don't know any technique about it, but I love to watch it, right? So when it comes to dancing, I love to watch the best of the best and to just to see things that people could do with their bodies and people can do with each other. And I don't know, I think subconsciously when you're watching somebody be in the zone and really feel their movement and feel the music, whether you're consciously perceiving that or not, you're sucked in and you want more of it.

[37:29] Jeff Thacker: Well, chemically in your head. Yeah, the press asked me that question and they say, why do you think it's so popular? And I'm going to take the elements that you have, because I think you've touched on what I normally say. And I believe that So You Think You Can Dance beats with a heart. It has heart. It has heart not only in who the dancers are on screen, it has heart with what the choreographers bring and draw out of them. Because these kids aren't necessarily trained actors. These kids are just, but the combination and the elements that come together to produce something that emotes us as a viewer, whether it touches us, makes us laugh, it makes us cry, it makes us feel is something that dance brings.

It's like, as you say, it's like a song. So I think that it's a question of all those elements that come through. And I'm not knocking, I'm not knocking any other dance show because I love the fact that there are so many different variants of dance shows on, whether it's dancing with celebrities or whether it's dancing in crews, whether it's dancing to just impress judges. There is enough slices of the pie for everybody. But I think that what So You Think You Dance has always had, and I call it like a little armada ship. These big guns come out, these big, huge, big, amazing, amazing variety shows. America's Got Talent and X Factor when it was around and Dancing with the Stars and The World of Dance, you know, they're big, big, big guns.

This little frigate just sits there and comes through and survives whatever it's thrown. And I think that the fact that I know that, you know, we have been on air the same amount of time with Dancing with the Stars, but with them doing two seasons a year, they have far more series than us. But I think that because we both came out in 2005, I certainly think that So You Think You Can Dance has solidified its place in TV history for what we do. And I, you know, I hope that continues.

[39:28] Alan Seales: Now, I'm going to put you on the spot. I'll tell you why, because on your podcast, I like what you do. I have three questions I ask people, but I'm going to ask you, OK, I might not ask you three, but I might definitely ask you two. You said, I can see myself up there. If you could dance in any duet that you've seen on our show, what one duet would you like to have been on that stage to have performed from So You Think?

[39:52] Jeff Thacker: Oh, gosh, I can't pick a single one. I have to say, though, I would let Mia Michaels choreograph me into anything. She's the way that she speaks through dance. And, yeah, yeah, just Mia. Mia is, I mean, and Sonya and Warren, too, if you're listening. I've interviewed both of them on the podcast. But, yeah, Mia, absolutely just love the, gosh, I'll just stop there. Anything Mia does, I would want to try to do.

[40:32] Jeff Thacker: Mia Michaels, when I first met Mia Michaels, I had worked with Celine Dion back in the UK and I was invited to see the Vegas show, which I couldn't get to see the opening. I was invited to rehearsals in Belgium, couldn't get over there because it was too busy. So when I eventually saw the show, I wanted to know who choreographed it and found it was Mia Michaels. I asked to meet her in New York and Mia came into the auditions. And season one, I was a judge on camera, judge me, Nigel and Bonnie Lithgow, his wife. And Mia came in and it was like we'd known each other for years. I don't call Mia a choreographer. I call her a creator. She is like a Wade Robson. Wade Robson and Amanda Robson are incredible.

They work in a very different way. So that's when I say that each choreographer that we use, we actually adore working because they bring something unique and something different. We don't go looking for the same thing. So Mia does bring something different. And so, you know, to draw something out of a dancer, which is something quite unique. I understand why you would definitely choose Mia. I mean, you know, everybody, everybody has their favorites. And I am in the world of luxury where.

[42:11] Jeff Thacker: To put in new choreographers because rarely do any of us get the opportunity to showcase our talent, and I always say don't just send me a show reel of what you've done for this or done for that because I need to experience it in the room with you. Choreograph something that you think will work for So You Think You Can Dance. It doesn't always work. Not even the best choreographers will come to the show and put something on and get a standing ovation, and you know that happens in Broadway too with live shows and hence out of town tryouts and things, but we are continually refreshing and replenishing because without question new choreographers and new choreographies every season will bring something fresh and something new. However, I will also say that they bring the same things that over 16 years we've seen, but you just need to repackage. So I love the fact that we can open up doors to fresh talent.

[43:16] Jeff Thacker: How do you, I guess for those listening both on the contestant side and the choreographer side, what's the best advice you would give to somebody who wants to either be on the show as either a contestant or a choreographer? I think the answer I have is for both. Be memorable, don't be bland, don't blend into the walls, stand out, make something special, be yourself, bring yourself to the platform. Just that, you know, when we walk out the room you say, you say who is that girl with long blonde hair, black shorts and that red top? There'll be 28 of them, but you say who is that girl that stood up and was explosive on that floor? So that's what it is. Just be memorable, and for choreographers, there is such a wealth available now on so many social media platforms.

You can look back and reference and see what has worked and what hasn't worked in your opinion. So you have like a textbook of what works as far as the dancers are concerned. We never look to replace anybody else, we never go back to find a Lex Ishimoto, we'll never go back to find a tWitch, we just don't want to. We've had them, we've had them. So again, be individual and be unique.

[44:36] Jeff Thacker: I get into trouble with this normally at the auditions. I say hands up who's here to follow your dream? I'll guarantee you that 95% put their hands up, and I said okay now look behind you and see where that exit door is because that's where you need to go. This is not a dream, this is real and you have to work for it and work very hard for it because you're not going to wake up tomorrow being America's favorite dancer. However, dreams are inspirational and motivational, dream on, but you need to work for it, and it's those people that literally put themselves out and work very, very hard. Ricky Ubeda came up to me once and said I've been working all my life to come do this show, and I thought jeez we've been around that long, I'm that old and you've been around that long.

But people are using your words, we call them athletes of dance, they are now training, they are now training to be part of what they see is available to them and what the show can give them, a platform, a showcase, and a spotlight to move on. But you have to work very, very hard. It is hard work, and for the choreographers, I always say now listen, if you've never done this show before, don't come in thinking I've seen it, I teach people, I know how hard it is. This show is a monster, and it really is a totally different level to work in. I say this is how I try and explain it: I ask a, I contract a carpenter, I give him plumber's tools and ask him to build a wall. You have no choice, you don't have the luxury of choosing your dancers.

You walk in, and that's where the craft and expertise of our choreographers most of the time work. I have been in a situation where it hasn't, I won't mention any names, but the marriage hasn't worked at all.

[46:30] Jeff Thacker: You know, it doesn't always work well. If you need any guest judges for this fall, I'll put my hand up for that. I've been training my whole life to be a guest judge. Listen, if the list of guest judges that we have, and we have people who astoundingly say, if you know, I'd love to come on board, and we've had some amazing guest judges, not just literally just in the specific world of choreographers. We've had all our alumni choreographers virtually on the panel, we've had people like Lady Gaga, Ellen DeGeneres, Anna Kendrick, Jesse Tyler Ferguson, Neil Patrick Harris, Benjamin Millepied. I mean, you name it, we've had Debbie Reynolds, we've had such a plethora of guest judges. But we always feel that there is the voice of the people at home that's going to watch and be the judge and jury, which is great, and we have those people that have been on in their professionals, and we've right across the board we've had it.

So I would love you to remain a judge even if you watch it, but I will say to you that if you get yourself out to LA when we are on air in August, maybe bring your microphone with you, maybe come and set up and do a Broadway choreographer and do it backstage, do it on site, come and talk to us. Please be my guest, I'd love to have you over here. You can, you know, we are live live, so it would be something I'd be very happy to set up for you if you were to come over.

[48:05] Alan Seales: I am most definitely going to take you up on that.

[48:12] Jeff Thacker: Well, please, please do by all means. And not I'm winding it up, but I just feel that, you know, in certainly in a time that we're going through now, these turbulent crazy times where Broadway is closed down, the West End is closed down, the television studios are closed down for the time being, any form of entertainment and art is so wonderful, whether it be podcasts, whether it be online, whether it be streaming. You know, just keep entertainment is an uplifter, it's a great medicine for everybody to have. And you know, to with people like you that keep it going, to keep it moving and keep it fresh. I watched the Rosie O'Donnell show the other day live on YouTube, you know, and the amount of people that gave in and Elton John on Fox gave one over the weekend.

You know, this in this time of uncertainty and the turbulence, it's amazing what people do to bring people together in what we can do. And so therefore if you take what is achievable, if you take what's achievable and see what is there for you and to literally achieve, add that and apply that to what you need to do, whether you are coming as a dancer or as a choreographer or any work of life.

[49:37] Jeff Thacker: Well, I sound like I'm giving a lecture in, I don't know, life, but you know what we're capable of. We're capable of so much.

[49:44] Alan Seales: That was probably like the answer to my second closing question, which is, you know, what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people, right? Like you just answered it. That was a perfect answer.

[49:54] Jeff Thacker: I don't think when I was a younger person I had that wealth of knowledge or experience or metier, is a French word, metier, which is like your apprenticeship. I think about growing older and living life longer enables you to look back and reflect and see the generation now. I love trying to understand, I mean you and I, how much that the technical stuff we were going through to get this working that I had no idea what this button was or that button was. So I absolutely love to learn, but I think looking back if I were to, I know this is one of your questions, if I were to give any advice to myself is have open ears, open eyes, open mind, open heart, and go for it as much as you can. I know everybody says like go for it, go for it, go for it, but you kind of need to know that actually it's out there if you just search for it and find it.

[50:50] Alan Seales: I could not agree more. That is just keep saying yes and something what you really want to do is going to make itself apparent.

[50:55] Jeff Thacker: Yeah, there may be maybe a little blockade, a little bit of closed doors, but the path doesn't stop. You just turn a different way, just turn a different way completely.

[51:04] Alan Seales: So that was question number two. So the first question, we'll go back to what motivates you.

[51:10] Jeff Thacker: I think what motivates me, again, is people say to me what is it about So You Think You Can Dance that it was the best thing, and I say the best thing about for me So You Think You Can Dance is something that people never really, and that is the kids. I call them my kids, they will always be my kids. I've seen them grow up from 18 to where they are now. They motivate me and push me, and you know my goodness, they're like homing pigeons. Open a door, window, they all come flying in. I love the fact that we maintain, I've never in my entire career, be it dancer, choreographer, or producer, worked on any show like this. So the motivation comes from them, they motivate me to motivate myself, and you know, to be able to like tWitch and Allison, I was the official at their wedding.

Dimitri got married to his wife as a fish at their wedding. I recently flew back to Washington DC for a sad occasion, which was Danny Tidwell's memorial and spoke about Danny then. So to have had these kids come into my life, I feel that I think I would have passed, I would have died never being a parent. They've touched seeds in me that allowed me to discover myself, so their motivation is my motivation, and I hope that never goes. I hope that never goes. I don't think they will allow me to. Sometimes I like I think, oh well, you know, I lecture them, continually lecture them, continually tell them what they should do, but they teach me so much. So that's my motivation, their motivation.

[52:41] Alan Seales: Beautiful. And the closing question, which as you know because you've listened to the podcast, is if you can see one show for the rest of your life, but I want to change it for you to be if you could only watch one routine from So You Think for the rest of your life, but you can watch it as many times as you want, which one would it be?

[52:56] Jeff Thacker: I like you, I can't answer that because there's so many variants throughout the show, and I think that the routine isn't just literally about the performance. It's all the elements. I said it's about the choreographer, the dancers, the music. So I actually don't have one, I have many, many favorites. But I will answer the other one, if I could just watch one show for the rest of my life.

[53:19] Alan Seales: Okay, go ahead.

[53:25] Jeff Thacker: I would have to also be in it.

[53:31] Alan Seales: Okay.

[53:31] Jeff Thacker: To watch it and be in it for the rest of my life, A Chorus Line.

[53:39] Alan Seales: Oh, that's a, I think you're the first for A Chorus Line.

[53:43] Jeff Thacker: That's right. I would like to think that's me. I'd like to think I'd be up there. I need this job, I really need this job.

[53:50] Alan Seales: Well, I'll introduce you to McKechnie, you two.

[53:57] Jeff Thacker: Oh my god, I actually had the pleasure of working with her once on a very special night of 100 stars gala. So I absolutely, I just feel that for me, A Chorus Line, it was such a memorable show. When I saw it in the UK back in the 70s, I had never seen a show where I felt it was speaking to me. And so it's always been my favorite, and I love it. I just, it's so, the original A Chorus Line production with an English, although I'm an American citizen now, an English person, and I wouldn't be the best one in it, but I'd love to be in it.

[54:35] Alan Seales: All right, well then you're on social media on Instagram at Jeff Thacker. You're not on Twitter, right? I didn't find you on Twitter.

[54:44] Jeff Thacker: Yes, it's on So You Think You Can Dance family, S-Y-E-T-C-T family. It's on Twitter.

[54:49] Alan Seales: All right, Instagram you can get more of me at thetheaterpodcast.com slash patreon and Instagram and Twitter theater underscore podcast. Please leave a rating, leave a review. This is edited by Matthew Hendershot. Thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music, and Jeff Thacker, thank you most of all. This has been so much fun.

[55:07] Jeff Thacker: Well listen, thank you so much for inviting us in, and I'm so glad that you're a fan because we're a fan of everybody you speak to on there. So please keep up the good work, stay safe, wash your hands, social distancing, and we'll all be out of this very soon, and the curtain will rise back onto that stage, and we'll be back on air.

[55:30] Jeff Thacker: Take a deep breath, make the world a little colorful.