This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to the Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. I'm your host, Alan Seales. And given when this episode was recorded and is being released, I want to take a moment and acknowledge that Black Lives Matter. I'm continuing to release episodes throughout this whole time since I strongly believe art can in part help bring us together and help heal a broken society. So be sure to check out the episode notes for links to resources that need your donations if you're able to do so. This episode is with Taylor Trensch, who was most recently seen in To Kill a Mockingbird. Did you know he holds the record for the most shows at the Schubert Theatre? This dude has just had a career.

I mean, he's still young, but he's had a career that's just been going on forever. We ventured into a great conversation about mental health. He was very open and, you know, just very candid about how he's dealing with things, especially now being in quarantine and with COVID going on and everything else that's happening. And this is part of, of course, the Bleeding Love takeover for June. He plays Sweet William in this original musical podcast. It was actually funny because we talked about this. I was his audio engineer. I was the audio engineer for this podcast. And he recorded most of his lines in his bathroom, you know, screaming or yelling into towels or whatnot. The whole situation was just great.

It was recorded entirely in quarantine. As always, please find me online, share a rating, share a review. I'm on Instagram at theatre underscore podcast. You can find more of me at bpn.fm slash TTP. And now everybody, please enjoy this episode with Taylor Trensch. Here you go. One, two, three.

[1:54] Alan Seales: My guest today has been working on Broadway since 2012, making his Broadway debut in Wicked. He's also been in the original casts of Matilda the Musical and The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime. He most recently starred opposite Ed Harris in To Kill a Mockingbird and can now be heard as Sweet William in Bleeding Love, a brand new original musical podcast radio play. Taylor Trensch, welcome to the Theatre Podcast.

[2:19] Taylor Trensch: Hey, thanks, Alan. Thanks for having me.

[2:22] Alan Seales: No problem. I have to now ask my standard opening question, which is where are you staying in quarantine?

[2:27] Taylor Trensch: I'm in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, not too, too far away from you.

[2:31] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. So you're so you didn't leave town at all?

[2:36] Taylor Trensch: No. Well, we tried for a second. We tried going upstate. And then we were met with anger and ill will. And so we left and came back to Brooklyn.

[2:48] Alan Seales: What was angry about upstate?

[2:50] Taylor Trensch: I think there's just a lot of fear, obviously, like rightfully so, about this pandemic. And like the idea that people were coming from New York City, like one of the epicenters and like bringing their grossness to the more like quiet, beautiful parts of New York. I think they were like, get out of here.

[3:11] Alan Seales: Well, I think like New York as a whole is generally dirty. So we're probably cleaner now.

[3:20] Taylor Trensch: I think so, too.

[3:21] Alan Seales: Because we're conscious of washing our hands and wiping down surfaces and like the subway shuts down to disinfect every night. So I would argue that it's better now than it is on a normal day.

[3:32] Taylor Trensch: I agree. I was also thinking all the people who were like, get out of our town. I was like, well, if we like to maintain six feet of distance, there will be no problem. I promise. But we left.

[3:42] Alan Seales: Oh, well, screw those guys.

[3:43] Taylor Trensch: Yeah.

[3:44] Alan Seales: Yeah, screw those guys. So you're in Brooklyn now. And where did you grow up? Where were you? Where was little Taylor living?

[3:49] Taylor Trensch: Little Taylor was born and raised in Tampa, Florida.

[3:54] Alan Seales: Oh, I agree.

[3:55] Taylor Trensch: Go on.

[3:56] Alan Seales: I lived in Clearwater for a good while.

[3:59] Taylor Trensch: No way.

[4:00] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[4:01] Taylor Trensch: So I know Tampa very well.

[4:02] Taylor Trensch: I grew up in the same house that my dad grew up in. Like, we had the same childhood bedroom and sat at the same seat at the dinner table.

[4:10] Alan Seales: Wait, so when he got up, he moved over to his dad's chair? Is that like?

[4:15] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, exactly. He like assumed the patriarchal head of the table seat.

[4:22] Alan Seales: Is the seat being held for you one day?

[4:24] Taylor Trensch: Fingers crossed. We'll see. I do have a nephew who's a lot cuter. And so I feel like I might my generation might get skipped and it might just get handed to him.

[4:32] Alan Seales: Oh, well, you're plenty cute. So don't hate things right back short.

[4:38] Taylor Trensch: So then in Tampa, what was your childhood like? Like, when did you get into singing, dancing, performing like the whole the whole scene?

[4:46] Taylor Trensch: Super early. I was like five years old when I did my first community theater show, which was The Wizard of Oz. And I peed my pants opening night. And from then on, I couldn't be stopped both peeing my pants and being in musicals.

[4:59] Alan Seales: Excuse me while I pee my pants.

[5:05] Taylor Trensch: Was it your was it your parents' idea to put you in musicals or did you ask for that? Like, where did the idea come from?

[5:10] Taylor Trensch: I asked. I was straight. This is the story. And I don't I'm not sure that I believe it. But I was reading the newspaper as a five year old and saw that there were auditions for The Wizard of Oz. And I loved the movie. So I begged them to take me. And the auditions were at like the local science museum. And so I stood in this like big cavernous room with like probably dinosaur fossils and sang, this land is your land. This land is my land. And got it. Never looked back.

[5:40] Alan Seales: Well, the fact that you were reading like newspapers and saw the word audition at five years old.

[5:45] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. Like what's going on?

[5:46] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, child genius, of course.

[5:49] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, for sure.

[5:51] Alan Seales: What was it about like at five years old? What was it about that at the time that that made you really want to dig into this? Like, why not go out for sports or play in the backyard? Like like most kids just want to do.

[6:05] Taylor Trensch: I think number one, I had like severe allergies and asthma. So like that was going against me. Number two, I'm gay, so I have no hand-eye coordination. And number three, I'm gay. So the immediate like applause and feedback and laughter was like, woo, look at me. And so, yeah, I think it was it was like truly the excitement of like people in a room, the like immediate feedback and like getting laughs or getting applause. I was like more, more.

[6:34] Alan Seales: How long or how young were you when you knew you were gay?

[6:40] Taylor Trensch: Probably like certain I knew for certain in middle school, but I'm sure before then there had been like inklings. But in doing community theater around like middle school time, I started like becoming aware of like the gay adults or the queer adults who were doing community theater and like started to see myself in them.

[6:58] Alan Seales: Oh, interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've said this before to women and to people of color in general. And like this podcast has given me a lot of opportunity to reflect and being a, you know, a male presenting, straight presenting person, white white presenting person. My my life has come with a level of privilege that I didn't realize until probably just like two or three years ago.

[7:28] Taylor Trensch: Sure.

[7:29] Alan Seales: Really, because I grew up in a, you know, like tiny, tiny close to where you were and then moved to North Carolina where it was even less progressive.

[7:40] Taylor Trensch: I went from Florida to North Carolina.

[7:42] Alan Seales: Well, I went I moved to North Wilkesboro, which is the Tyson chicken processing capital of the world.

[7:48] Taylor Trensch: Oh, my God. You know, I love it.

[7:50] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. On a good summer day, you can smell them chicken coops all the way across the county.

[7:55] Taylor Trensch: Oh, it's disgusting. And then Raleigh for about eight in and out of Raleigh for eight years. So I was that was like my home base when I was doing regional theater.

[8:07] Taylor Trensch: OK.

[8:08] Alan Seales: Where were you?

[8:10] Taylor Trensch: I went to college at Elon University, which is nowhere but that's so funny.

[8:14] Alan Seales: From Florida to North Carolina to New York.

[8:16] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, definitely.

[8:17] Alan Seales: I definitely know Elon.

[8:18] Taylor Trensch: I went to NC State.

[8:19] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah.

[8:20] Taylor Trensch: Of course.

[8:21] Alan Seales: Blue Devils.

[8:22] Taylor Trensch: No, that's Duke.

[8:23] Alan Seales: Duke is Blue Devils.

[8:24] Taylor Trensch: Babble Hills at Tar Heels, UNC Chapel Hill, Raleigh's the Wolfpack.

[8:27] Alan Seales: Once again, gay.

[8:28] Taylor Trensch: No, that's I mean, I relate because I mean, being queer is obviously I can be treated differently if someone is aware of that, but I'm very much in the same boat you are and the fact that I'm like a cisgender white guy. And so I like benefit from a lot of privilege.

[8:45] Alan Seales: Right. Right. And I mean, I guess it's actually through corporate trainings and stuff through other jobs and experiences. I've taken a lot of these these courses in the last, you know, probably five plus years and and it's courses and trainings and whatnot. And it's interesting to me to hear the discussions of of people, especially like light skinned people of Asian descent who are who are like when they start to feel guilty for for presenting more as white when it's to their advantage and Asian when it's culturally relevant. You know, so so it's like I feel like everybody to an extent sort of puts on a different face depending on what group they're in and what totally and what what setting they're in.

[9:34] Taylor Trensch: I think even like personality wise, I feel like we have like a thousand versions of ourselves and we choose one to fit like whatever will benefit the situation.

[9:42] Alan Seales: Right. Right. So I mean, do you still find yourself doing that? I mean, especially in, you know, like Dear Evan Hansen is one of the roles you're most well known for, of course, among many, many other things. And Evan Hansen, the character is just this kid that doesn't feel like he fits in and doesn't have really any friends and has this weird, estranged relationship with definitely one parent, probably the other, which gets mended by the end of the show, you know. And like so going through this experience, you know, eight times a week for as long as you did, was it was any sort of catharsis?

[10:19] Taylor Trensch: For sure. I think at that at Evan's age, I like for sure also felt totally unremarkable and like there was nothing special about me. And I think that is like kind of what's at the center of the story is that he's like he feels so invisible, but there's a part of him that's like maybe rightly so, because like what what do I have to contribute? Yeah, I think even if you're like the quarterback of the football team, like that is bubbling inside of you somewhere where you're like, maybe I'm not special, maybe like I'm, yeah, maybe I'm like not worth celebrating or something. And I hope, and especially with the song that ends the first act, you will be found, I hope that the show teaches people in the audience that everyone absolutely has something inside of themselves that is like singular and special and deserves to be shouted from the rooftops.

[11:13] Alan Seales: Well, it's, I mean, it's nice to hear that. And I've heard people say that a lot. And then and then immediately, like the next day, I'll be talking to a Tony winner who's like, I don't know why I have this piece of metal. I don't deserve this. I'm no special than it, not any more special than anyone else. And it's like, I love our theater. And the performing arts kind of in general attracts this type of person that just quietly needs and sometimes not so quietly needs validation. And then when they get it, it's so hard to be happy with it.

[11:46] Taylor Trensch: I do. I was told someone this recently, I feel like inside every theater artist, there's like, there's one version of themselves that is like, I'm the worst person here. Like, when I step into a rehearsal room, I'm the reason this project will fail. I'm going to like tear us all down with me. But then there's another part of you, this tiny version of yourself that's like, but maybe I'm a genius. Because I think you have to have that in order to like keep going after what we do. It's like too hard to not. And I think in order to chase it, there has to be like some tiny part of you that's like, I think maybe I'm incredible.

[12:21] Alan Seales: And it's so true. It's like those awards season like feeds into that for a second, it like feeds that part of you. And then immediately you like squash them down into the dirt and like, once again, welcome back the part of you that's like, I deserve to be in a crate in my basement. Well, like the, you've had the pleasure to have the, not pleasure, what's the word I'm looking for? The privilege of originating multiple casts, originating a couple of casts and, you know, there's still, I mean, there's thousands of actors in this city.

[12:59] Alan Seales: Tens of thousands, probably. I don't actually know the statistic. And the vast majority never get to say they even originate one. And so you've got more than one, and then you've got the credits that are two of the biggest shows still running on Broadway. We'll say still, because Broadway will come back, and I'm sure Evan Hansen and Mockingbird will come back. And so even after all of that sort of thing, like, I realize that it sort of becomes norm, and it sort of becomes habit that, you know, like, oh, yeah, I got Ben Platt on speed dial, and I can just call up Lin-Manuel or whoever it is, right? And Ed Harris and I are buddy buddies. But do you ever stop and just realize where you are and just say, like, this is not average?

[13:45] Taylor Trensch: Right. Yes. That's so funny. It does become so normal so quickly. And I think anything, like, once something becomes your routine, that just is what's normal to you. So I do, I always, like, I make it a point to try to remind myself to be, like, look at where you are, look at who is, like, standing next to you on this stage. And there have been so many events since I've moved to New York, like, within different experiences of doing shows. There have been so many, like, single events that have reminded me of that. Like, when we did To Kill a Mockingbird at Madison Square Garden for, like, 20,000 public school students, that was a moment that was, I'd been lucky to be on Broadway for, like, eight years.

And then suddenly being in Madison Square Garden doing a Broadway play and, like, really taking in who I was on stage with and the power of theater and, like, remembering, seeing young people fall in love with theater. It was, like, such a cool reminder. And I feel very lucky that I have moments like that that can remind me of how cool Broadway is.

[14:53] Alan Seales: How long was that in the works before it was announced? And then, like, the rehearsal process, I mean, did they move the set or did they rebuild the set or build a new set in Madison Square Garden?

[15:03] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, they built a new set. We fully restaged the show. So we would be doing, like, the original version at night at the Shubert Theater. And then during the day, we'd be in Long Island City rehearsing a fully new version of the show, which was kooky. I don't know how long it was in the works. We found out very last minute. Scott Rudin called us all on stage either before or after a show one night. And we were like, oh, no. Because usually when a producer comes for a cast meeting, it's like, you're all done for.

[15:34] Alan Seales: That's what I was going to say. It sounds like you're getting your closing notice.

[15:38] Taylor Trensch: I know. I was like, oh, no. Wait, I thought this was a hit. Gosh, darn you, Ed Harris. I did close the show. It was me. Oh, so we got, like, it was very last minute. He told us the news and, like, days later, we started rehearsals. But it was, I mean, it was just so exciting. My gosh.

[16:03] Alan Seales: Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, I've seen shows in the audience at MFG, and I've never even sat on, like, bought a ticket to see a show or anything on the floor.

[16:14] Taylor Trensch: Oh, man. That has to be absolutely incredible. And you mentioned the Shubert. Like, you have the record for most Broadway shows at the Shubert Theater.

[16:25] Alan Seales: Yeah, take that.

[16:27] Taylor Trensch: Take that, everybody else.

[16:28] Alan Seales: Yeah, Peter's.

[16:30] Taylor Trensch: Patti Who?

[16:31] Alan Seales: Yeah, Patti Lou No, more like it. Just kidding.

[16:35] Taylor Trensch: Patti's going to come after us with pitchforks.

[16:40] Alan Seales: But you've also had a wonderful, wonderful benefit of performing with your boyfriend, Ben Levi Ross, in Dear Evan Hansen. What was that like?

[16:49] Taylor Trensch: So wonderful. He was an understudy for, like, all of the teenage boy characters when I joined. And I walked into the rehearsal room and was like, uh-oh. Hubba hubba. But I, like, pushed him away and was like, no, we're not, we're not going to, like, I'm not going to date somebody I work with. And then he tricked me into go seeing a movie. And he was like, we're all going to go. The whole cast is going to go. And I was like, okay. And then as I walked up to the movie theater, he was like, everyone canceled. But he had never invited anyone else. Our relationship is built on lies and deceit. But he was like, I, first of all, just think he's so incredibly talented. And so it was so fun to be on stage with him just as someone that I admire and respect. But then, yeah, the added bonus of, like, it also being someone I love dearly. It was such a treat.

[17:49] Alan Seales: Do you have any, or did you have any sort of issue with, like, if there was any trouble at home and leaving it at home and not bringing it on stage when you needed to, like, like each other?

[18:01] Taylor Trensch: We've been, I don't know, like, maybe it's a sign that I've been lobotomized or something, but I, like, we don't have conflict. It's been, I mean, I say that and, like, tonight he's going to put a pillow over my head and smother me and like building resentment that I just haven't picked up on. But we, like, are not, we don't argue or, like, if anything, he just gets annoyed at me for, like, things dumb around the house. But, yeah, we very luckily we're always, like, we're able to come to work in a happy, healthy place.

[18:33] Alan Seales: It's interesting to me to, like, I read scripts and read books and see shows and, you know, artists, the writers who create these works are using this as methods of expression and communication. And when I see, like, on TV or something, you can't beat around the bush for too long or the plot gets stale and you get bored and you have to move things along. But in life, sometimes people go years and years without saying what they really think or what they really mean. And I think that being, my assumption, and I'm trying, I try to carry this over to my personal life, is as forthcoming and honest as I am in, like, a written form or even, like, I find myself being more vulnerable right now doing podcast interviews than I do with friends that I know I'm going to see every day, like, my daily circle of close friends. Do you know what I mean?

[19:38] Taylor Trensch: A hundred percent, yes. There must be something about, like, a podcast you ultimately know it's, like, for entertainment or, like, it's going to be, like, released to a larger audience than just your circle of friends. And there must be some weird, like, permission you give yourself when you know, especially when there's a microphone, I feel like ultimately it becomes, a microphone is, like, a signifier that this is a performance in a way or something. And that must, like, give you permission to be, like, okay, because I'm, like, at a microphone doing a podcast, that then, like, gives you a little bit of room to be more open and honest or something. I don't know. I don't know, but it seems to me, like, sort of backwards because we're digitally recording intimate things to put out on the internet that will be there forever.

[20:31] Alan Seales: Yeah. Sometimes you can't just, like, go up to somebody you really love and just, and say something that you think they're not going to like.

[20:35] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. Because, like, speaking for myself, it's, like, I have to continue to see this person, I guess. I live with this person or, you know, in a lot of cases, like, we have kids together, we have property together, we run a business together, whatever it is. And for me, it's, like, oh, I don't want to, I'm just afraid of, like, saying something and making them not like me because then we'll never get over it. I guess it's a lack of confidence that conflict can be overcome easily.

[21:02] Alan Seales: Yeah. And I guess it's, like, a deeper investment in your personal relationships than in, like, the audience of a podcast. Like, you're obviously, like, it's much more high stakes to, like, be open and honest with the person, like, the most important person in your life.

[21:14] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. Which feels like the opposite, it should be the opposite, you're right. Well, it's a commonality I've heard, and I can vouch for this myself too, having performed back in the day, that it's much easier to step on stage in front of 2000 than 20.

[21:37] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah, my God. I think about all the times that, like, growing up and going to, like, family reunions or, like, Thanksgiving at my grandparents' house and then being like, sing us a song. Like, that makes my face so hot. It makes me break out in hives more than doing Madison Square Garden did.

[21:52] Taylor Trensch: Right. Oh, spooky. Yeah. Well, there's anonymity. And I was actually talking to Mark Kudisch about the difference is a girl from the North Country moving from Off-Broadway to Broadway, like, it's a bigger house. And he was saying, too, that, like, the first third of the audience, he didn't think had a great experience because they were in the light, they were, you know, too close. They were trying to, like, get back to see the full picture because it's a show that requires, like, a big vantage point. So I totally I totally get that. It's uncomfortable for me, too, as an audience sometimes when I know that.

[22:26] Alan Seales: Well, I was going to use six as an example, but I think that's a bad example. What I was going to say was when I know that they're looking at me.

[22:34] Taylor Trensch: Oh, God. And from on stage as an audience member. And but six now, as soon as I said that, I was like, oh, no, six is OK, because from the beginning, it's concert style. They're supposed to be looking. Right? Like that's the good like.

[22:55] Alan Seales: Right, right. So there immediately there's no fourth wall. They're just like, here we are. We're telling you a story. Right. And there's nothing worse. There's nothing worse than going to see a play where you think there's a fourth wall and then suddenly the characters like turn out to you and like, look, you're like, oh, no, like, it's just not what I signed up for. Like the end of Cats. Should we go there? The end of Cats. Don't you dare look at me, Judy Dench. Not once, not twice, not thrice. Really, Judy Dench? Let me let me escape. I don't want to be part of this.

[23:27] Alan Seales: Well, speaking of escaping. Yes. Bleeding Love. The Bleeding Love, you are sweet, William, in this original musical podcast radio play. And we're seeing it like in the podcast world. The podcast has just exploded in the last two years as a medium. But now there's this resurgence of radio plays that are coming out. And I love it because when you think about about the form of entertainment that's that's audible, like that's why books, a lot of people are like books are so much better than movies, because books leave so much more to the imagination. And I think radio plays, too, do do something very similar if they're done very, very well, obviously. And and Harris, Harris Duran, the the the writer and lyricist and also edited all the podcast, magnificent job of putting it all together and creating an atmosphere with the foley and the music and the sound effects and whatnot.

And I, you know, for for those listening, I was one of the producers on the thing and and helped do the audio engineering. And so it was very fun and challenging to work with you and work with the other cast like to recreate a sound studio for you. It was in your bathroom.

[24:47] Taylor Trensch: Yes, I know. I should say that. I don't know if this has been said enough, but Alan is the reason we all like sound good on that podcast. Thank you. It was it was fun. It was it was a fun challenge and recorded entirely in quarantine, which is ironic because the whole show is about being in quarantine. Right. Which it was written years prior to the current pandemic and just happened to fit the current world. We were like, we have to produce this and we have to get this out. So but how did you get involved? Because this has been like you were in the original demo recordings that came out in 2016. And then so four years go by and now we have a pandemic and we're recording you in your bathroom.

Right. So how did it how did it start for you four years ago after hearing you say like that they wrote this so long before this all happened? Now I'm like, should I ask them about like lottery numbers or when should I buy property? I just we should all be seeking counsel from them. I got invited to do the demo recordings. I think I was doing the Curious Incident at the time.

[25:58] Taylor Trensch: And I honestly don't know how Harris found me, but he very kindly asked me to record the demos and he sent me some of the original production which was in Denmark, I think. He sent me some of the music from that and I was immediately so compelled because it truly runs the gamut from rock and roll to classical. So I agreed right away to do the demos and then when Broadway Podcast Network so kindly offered this show a home, they were able to assemble the full demo cast back together which was so great, but also so painful to have to listen to what I did years ago and then try to match that. I was like, yeesh.

[26:47] Alan Seales: Well, it's interesting because you're not old, I was gonna say as young as you are, you're not like super young, but you're not super old.

[26:55] Taylor Trensch: Hey, watch it. People's voices are still changing.

[26:58] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's true. And even the timbre of people's voices. I mean, maybe Sarah Stiles can always go back into that voice that she's got. But yeah, we had a tough time matching a lot of that like Tony Vincent to Mark. Mark is of a certain age where I think he was all right, but I love you, Mark. And yeah, so it was interesting because there was some dialogue that was interspersed with the music back from the demos that we had to then cut out and re-record. And it was just this incredible challenge. And like for you, have you ever kind of done anything? I mean, obviously, we're all living through a pandemic for the first time, but recording in your bathroom, doing these one-off lines, like we didn't record lines against any other actors. It was just one line, one line, one line, and then it was all spliced together in post.

[27:50] Taylor Trensch: Right. Yeah, it was such a unique challenge. I mean, there were moments where we were able to see each other like on thanks to technology through like Zoom and stuff. So we could at least see them and sort of have something to react to. But yeah, it was so absolutely bizarre to try to make a specific honest choice with sort of no context.

[28:13] Alan Seales: Well, how did you approach it? Did you approach it differently than you would any other role just because you're by yourself this time?

[28:20] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, I think so. I don't know what I was doing, honestly. I feel like I just blacked out for the eight hours and screamed into my microphone at home alone. And my neighbors were probably like calling the cops. Yeah, I don't know. I guess it was about finding, just making any sort of decision on your own, like trying to find any sort of specificity or detail to infuse with the line to make them sound alive. Because yeah, without that exchange of energy that you get in acting with someone on stage, you have to sort of self-generate that energy, which is hard to do.

[29:05] Alan Seales: Well, that's why, yeah, you mentioned visual help. We got on Google Hangouts, and that was specifically why we tried to do that. It is just very much so that even if we didn't have you reading against whoever your scene partner was, if scheduling didn't work out, then Harris was reading or somebody else was reading. So to get some sort of interaction. And it became to me like recording voiceover, where it's like, all right, let's do four different takes of this line, four different ways, and then we use the one that fits.

[29:40] Taylor Trensch: Right. So again, talking about Harris, how he put this all together to make it sound completely seamless, just he did such a good job. And all of you, you two, all the actors did too. The amount of variation and the range that you went through and the options provided, I mean, how it came together is just incredible to me.

[30:00] Taylor Trensch: Thanks. I'm happy about it too. I guess also, there must have been something about, because we all knew this story for years, like we'd all record these demos so long ago, even if it wasn't like at the top of our brain, it was like living somewhere inside of us, like subterraneously, is that a word? Delete this, cut me out, delete this podcast, don't release it.

[30:23] Alan Seales: Subconsciously, thank you. And I knew that and I was testing you and you passed.

[30:29] Taylor Trensch: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But yeah, like the story was already living inside of us. So I'm sure that was also a big help in that we at least generally knew the trajectory of what was supposed to happen and what the goalposts were throughout the show.

[30:45] Alan Seales: Well, where do you think it should go next? And in a related question, when theater comes back, do you think it's going to be something that incorporates more of this digital format or do you think it's going to go back to everybody just show up to Broadway and get some overpriced pizza and water and go see a show?

[31:04] Taylor Trensch: Wow, I would love to have more pizza on Broadway. I definitely think that this will continue. As technology gets better, we just see more and more people participating in it. I feel like there is like a record number of podcasts, but yours is the best and you can put that to the government. I don't know what that means. Yeah, I definitely think that this will still be relevant and ever present. But I think the main thing that will change is whenever it's safe to be in a Broadway house again with other people. I think that as technology becomes cooler and more developed, I feel like theater will start to get stripped back further. I feel like things are going to go to more of a Peter and the Starcatcher kind of place where, like you said about radio plays, the audience is going to be more required to use their imagination and be more engaged with the play.

Because I don't think we can ask people to pay as much money to come see Broadway shows right away when they return. And I think producers probably can't spend as much money. So yeah, I imagine that we're going to come back to a world that is like much simpler stuff on Broadway.

[32:20] Taylor Trensch: I wonder if it's going to be like sort of a hybrid streaming format, physical streaming format, because that's always been a question of mine. And I know why, I was going to say, why you don't stream, offer the ability to watch live performances on the internet while they're happening or whatnot. Like for people who are never going to be able to, for whatever reason, come and see Hamilton or Dear Evan Hansen or Mockingbird or whatnot, giving them a way to see it. And Hamilton, like Lynn's changing the game, like Hamilton is about to be dropped on Disney, right? Yeah, Disney Plus in a couple weeks. And so that's changed. And now in the pandemic, like Broadway HD and other streaming services are offering recordings of shows.

But I wonder, I really wonder how this is going to shape out when we come back. Because you want people, like New York City, part of New York City thrives on tourism and the entertainment industry is all about tourism and getting people to see shows and walking through and everything. And for how long are we going to be able to open houses but not have a full house? Because you have to maintain social distancing. So half of the house that would have been there, can they pay to watch it online? How do you prevent copyright violation? People still go into movie theaters with camcorders or body cams or whatever and record this stuff. So is that where theater is going? Are we going to be able to get more bootlegs and still the purists want to go see it in person?

[33:53] Taylor Trensch: Right, I don't know. I feel so, I'm so conflicted about that because on the one hand, I absolutely want, I wish the theater could be more accessible for everyone. Like Mockingbird putting on, like having students come see the play for free is like, I hope there are more initiatives like that in the future. Because I don't think that recording a show on film, I know Hamilton will be beautiful, but it's just not the way it was supposed to be experienced. It was like directed for the stage and performances are calibrated for the stage. And there's just something, what makes theater so special is that it exists only in that moment with that group of people in the audience and like whatever happened on stage that night.

And that is like what makes it a unique and beautiful art form. And I think when we record a thing that like just a lot of the mystique goes away and the magic goes away. But then there's also something great about people watching Hamilton at home. It'll probably like introduce a new generation of people to Broadway musicals and they'll fall in love. And then hopefully eventually they'll come see it, see something in New York or on tour.

[35:05] Taylor Trensch: Hamilton's been open four years, right? 2016. Yeah, it's like four or five years. So they've got, I guess they've got the reputation of having, being the top grossing show on Broadway for so long. And that's something that people still want to go see its reputation. So I wonder if it's going to make sense for them to continue to keep it on Disney Plus when the theater reopens as opposed to like six, didn't get to make their Broadway debut because that was the night Broadway shut down. You know, are they going to, it's, it would be, they would be cannibalizing their own audience to put that online before a year or so go by or like Mockingbird is doing well too. Would that, are they going to start doing it?

Or, you know, Evan Hansen's another one of these long running ones, or you've got like Wicked and Phantom and these shows that have just been around forever. People want to come and see, because that's like a staple of, I went to New York and I saw a Broadway show and it was Phantom. And that's what I see every time.

[36:05] Taylor Trensch: Which by the way, side note, I'm going to go off on a tangent right here. Before online ticket sales, I was standing in line at TKTS to get my discounted tickets. And this was in the age of Peter and the Starcatcher. This is what reminded me when you said it earlier. And for whatever reason, I look approachable and I have tourists come up to me every time I was standing in line and they were like, hey, what should I go see? And I said, well, you can go see this, you can go see this, but there's this other great show, Peter and the Starcatcher. And I personally saw it like five or six times. I loved it. I saw it with Christian Borle and it was just, oh my God. And so I was looking at the show and I said, Peter and the Starcatcher, a story of how Peter Pan became Peter Pan.

And it's an origin story. It's so good. It's funny. And it'll make you happy. And they're like, I'm going to go see Chicago. I've heard of that one. I've heard of that one. Or I'll go see Phantom. I know what that's about. And the ability for people to not take a chance on something that they've never heard of that is just as good or better, nothing against Phantom, nothing against Chicago, but those will always be there.

[37:05] Taylor Trensch: I know. It's the familiarity of a title, especially for how much money it costs to see a Broadway show and how much money it costs to fly to New York for wherever you're coming from. It makes so much sense to me that, of course, you're going to go with what you think is the safest bet because you're like, I want to make sure I get my money's worth. So I think that's also something. It's so important that we find a way to have more accessible Broadway ticket prices, because I think that will then make people feel more comfortable going to see something a little more experimental.

[37:36] Alan Seales: Well, this is a much bigger conversation. And it kind of... I mean, the ticket prices are high because the production is high, because rent is high, because property taxes are high, because New York, New York, New York, New York. And there are... Right now, so many people are moving out of the city, leaving the city because of the pandemic, that there has got to be a real estate crash coming. And when everything reopens, restaurants have to go first because people need a place to eat and public transportation needs to be there so that people can get around. And all of these things, if there is an ongoing pandemic where we just have mutation after mutation of outbreak after outbreak, then this stuff, the hole in the wall, amazing ramen place around the corner can't have 20 people stuffed into two square feet anymore because of whatever law is going to happen.

So do they go out of business? Do they change? And houses, are theater houses going to have every other seat removed because of social distancing? I mean, this is so crazy what we're living in right now.

[38:48] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. And there's like, it's unprecedented. And we have no... I spend all day reading and speculating about what will happen.

[38:57] Taylor Trensch: We just don't know. And so that's what's so scary about it all. It's like, we don't know when it'll end. We don't know what life will be like, when slash if there is an end.

[39:08] Alan Seales: Well, do you really focus on it? Do you read a lot about it all day?

[39:11] Taylor Trensch: I go in waves. There are times when I look at my phone at the end of a day and the notification that tells you how long you've been looking at your screen. There are some days when it's like 8 billion hours. And then I then will have a couple of days where I just put my phone away and try to ignore it all. But yeah, weirdly, I feel like the more I read, the more I know, the better I feel.

[39:35] Alan Seales: Well, do you get anxious when you don't know or get anxious the more you do?

[39:44] Taylor Trensch: People in my family are like, kind of both. They're like, I know something's going on. And then the more they read about it, the more anxious they get. I'm like, I can't talk to you about this. You're stressing me out. I think there's something about the initial part of disconnecting yourself from the conversation. There's the first few moments of that where you're like, ah, finally, my mind is happy. But then as you're going to sleep at night, you start falling into a tornado of the unknowns. And so for me, I feel way less anxious when I have more information at hand.

[40:18] Alan Seales: Is anxiety something that you deal with on a regular basis or just this sort of situation?

[40:24] Taylor Trensch: Just this. It's really made me a little more understanding. I am not at all an anxious person. I like swing more towards the depressive side of the spectrum, I think. But so many people in my life have anxiety disorders. My boyfriend, a lot of my closest friends. I was describing how I was feeling to Ben, my boyfriend, recently. And he was like, oh no, yeah, that's anxiety. That's what I feel every day from start to finish. And I was like, I don't know. And it took this global pandemic to make me see that or understand that.

[41:05] Alan Seales: Yeah. Oh, 100%. I'm with you. I am very much like, okay, something's bothering me. I'm just going to work my ass off and then I'll go fix it. And either I work enough so that I'm not thinking about what is going on, or I actually do like put forth solutions and fix it. And I've always been kind of that way. And it was like two weeks ago when I just sort of just sat down and was like, I think this is helplessness. I don't know quite what to do and I'm not motivated to do anything. And it was really weird because I am trying now to sit in my negative emotions because through recent years of therapy, I'm like, okay, now I'm, okay, don't push it away. Don't ignore it. Acknowledge it and- Like experience it, honor it and then let it pass, let it wash away.

[41:55] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. And it really did. And this is one of those things going back to the beginning of our conversation where I told my wife, I said, I think I need like a couple hours just like to be by myself because I'm not in a good place right now. And I previously have been afraid to say things like that to people.

[42:10] Alan Seales: Me too. Because I don't want her to say, be like, oh, that weirdo. He's just a crazy guy I married because that's, yeah, it's just a fear. But yeah, like it felt good. Yeah. And I sat with it and then I was like, okay, cool. Yeah. Now I know, all right, now I realize what a lot of other people are feeling. So now I can empathize with them.

[42:32] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. The world is better. I still relate. I'm the very same way where I never, I like find that so hard to ask for something like that because going back to what we were talking about earlier about how much harder it is to be vulnerable with like your partner or your friends or whatever. Yeah. It's like this fear of disappointing them or letting them down or like you said, becoming unlikable or unlovable. I am learning to like get rid of that behavior and just say what I mean and ask for what I want because almost every single time they're like response you get is like, yes, that was good. And thank you for telling me. And that's totally fine that you want to go be by yourself. Which why, why we keep hearing positive reinforcement. Why is it ingrained in our heads to be like, well, this time is going to be different. This time is going to be different because we're a nation filled with shame.

[43:26] Alan Seales: Oh God. Yeah. And we are, I think as a nation, we need to get okay about talking about mental health.

[43:31] Taylor Trensch: Yes. It's just been exploding like the last two years. It's all of a sudden just become something that, oh yeah, I got therapy. And I met a friend a couple of months ago before, before quarantine was, and we were having dinner and, and I had just come from, I just come from therapy session and I, and he was like, oh, you know, where'd you come from? What were you doing earlier today? And I, and I was, I immediately went to a place where I was going to say, uh, I, you know, just hanging out, you know, just kind of give like a vague answer. But I, but I, in that moment I said, you know what, let me just see what happens if I'm actually honest. And I said, well, I came from therapy and the guy said, oh, do you like your therapist? I'm looking for a new one. And I was like, that was not what I expected at all.

[44:19] Alan Seales: That's awesome.

[44:20] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. So, so I just wish more people would be honest and it's going to take, it's going to take a while, uh, because the, you know, my parents' generation, our parents' generation didn't do that.

[44:29] Alan Seales: It was, yeah. It's so true. I do feel like we're on our way though. Things are obviously like looking up and we're like taking huge strides to remedy that, I think.

[44:35] Taylor Trensch: I do too. I do too. And it, and it makes it technology makes it easier. And it's funny too, because, um, Google, Google publishes a lot of publishers search trends a lot. And, and like I, there was somebody, a presentation I watched once that was like, even after, um, like on Mondays and like two days after, um, daylight savings, when that one hour shifts the, the queries about like how to commit suicide, jump up temporarily.

[45:09] Alan Seales: Whoa. Yeah. My gosh.

[45:10] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. So it's like people tell Google, I mean, it's not, Google is not big brother. Google is not spying on you. I'm not going to say like, and whatever I say next, people are going to be like with the corporation and analyze data that works on trends. But when, you know, you search for something like, how do I French kiss? How do I make a muffin? How like when you've been reading my Google history, how do I French kiss? What is the best way to clean blood off a floor?

[45:51] Alan Seales: Yeah. There are things that you put into the internet that you would never tell a person.

[45:57] Taylor Trensch: Totally. And when you take that data, you anonymize it and you can then start showing recommendations of like mental health help or, or resources to get, to help people get better. Or maybe it is, maybe it's podcast results. Maybe it's like a podcast or bleeding love, a podcast about being in quarantine that, that has a nice message. It was a message about love. Like maybe that's something that should be surfaced in search results based on someone's previous search history. I think there's like, we're just kind of at the tip of the iceberg to how useful machine learning and machine learning tied into emotional response is going to get.

[46:38] Alan Seales: I agree. I also, I think in such a big way, also even the, that like access you have to other people is so huge. I feel like for, for the queer community in a big way, being able to like talk to people on the opposite side of the globe and have a shared experience with them when in your own small town, there's like maybe no one you can relate to. That is also like, I think one of the most incredible things about the internet.

[47:04] Taylor Trensch: Well, yeah, you can turn on, turn on your computer, listen to a podcast, listen to stories. What, you know, whatever it is about, about people, you can find people like you, if you like eating bugs upside down while wearing a furry suit or in a bear suit, then there's somebody else out there that you can, that's going to want to do that too.

[47:22] Alan Seales: You know, how do I find insect eating bears? Parties.

[47:28] Taylor Trensch: If you want more information from, for that, you can subscribe to my podcast, which will be launching soon here on the Broadway Podcast Network. Stay tuned.

[47:39] Alan Seales: I would listen.

[47:40] Taylor Trensch: Thank you.

[47:41] Alan Seales: Oh, just saying. Okay. So we are short on time because you have a heart out here. So let's wrap up as much as I don't want to. I love this conversation. Get to my three questions here that I use, close out every episode. The first one is what motivates you?

[48:00] Taylor Trensch: You do. What motivates me? That's a great question. Takes a lot. I'm a, I'm a procrastinator for sure. I can be so lazy. I guess what motivates me is, oof, I truly don't know, but this is such a gross answer, like storytelling. Yeah. Like the, like shared artistic experiences are what motivates me. I don't know. I feel so like, like I'm playing a flute in a field with the flower crown on my head.

[48:33] Alan Seales: There's no wrong answer. The second question is what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[48:42] Taylor Trensch: Yes. I think it was so hard for me in the beginning to like deal with rejection, which is like such a big part of what doing what we do. And I have recently learned to like change, shift my method of thinking. And when I get something that I wanted, yes, it's okay to be sad. Yes, yes, it's okay to be sad. Yes, it's disappointing. But at the same time, someone else's dream came true and that is wonderful and exciting and should be celebrated. So I think that is like something helpful to hold on to when, yeah, when you're feeling down. And also like, try not to compare yourself to other people. I always hear people say like, it's hard to move forward when you're constantly looking, when you're constantly looking side to side. So it would be like, don't, don't compare yourself to other people. And also like, please celebrate other people's successes.

[49:36] Alan Seales: Okay. I like that. So now last question, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you say?

[49:45] Taylor Trensch: Oh my God. Does it have to be currently running?

[49:49] Alan Seales: No.

[49:50] Taylor Trensch: Oh my God. This is really difficult. My first instinct is the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime. I love that show too, but because I shared their role with Alex Sharp, who won the Tony for it, like we both got to see it a lot from the audience and I like just never, ever got tired of watching it.

[50:11] Alan Seales: I didn't know that they, so you were there, there was an alternate.

[50:17] Taylor Trensch: Yeah. I did the show like two or three times a week to give Alex a break just because it was so physically and emotionally demanding. So you only do shows that are so emotionally and physically demanding they can't be done.

[50:28] Alan Seales: It requires two actors, exactly. And I do feel like that, not having to do eight shows a week, doing like six shows a week, it really is the answer. That's what we all should be doing.

[50:39] Taylor Trensch: Yes, I agree. Keep more people healthy, give more people jobs. All right. Maybe that's the answer after quarantine. In Australia, a lot of times they do nine shows a week.

[50:54] Alan Seales: Why on earth?

[50:55] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, yeah. I just finished interviewing a bunch of six queens from the Australia cast.

[51:00] Alan Seales: Oh my God.

[51:01] Taylor Trensch: And they were like, yeah, we did nine shows a week.

[51:04] Alan Seales: No, don't.

[51:06] Taylor Trensch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Insane.

[51:09] Alan Seales: So where can we find you on social media?

[51:11] Taylor Trensch: I'm on Instagram at knuckle sandwich. Silly. Yeah.

[51:19] Alan Seales: All right. You can get more of this podcast and me at the theater podcast.com. You can show your support for the podcast at theater, the theater podcast dot com slash Patreon. Find me on Instagram and Twitter at theater underscore podcast. Please leave a rating and review wherever you're listening. This is edited by Matthew Hendershot. And thank you to jukebox the ghost for the intro and outro music. And Taylor, thank you. Most of all, this has been a lot of fun.

[51:43] Taylor Trensch: I know. Thank you so much for having me. What a thrill.