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[0:00] Justin Clarke: In the spirit of reconciliation, the Theatre Thoughts Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.

[0:09] Justin Clarke: We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all traditional custodians of the land on which our episodes are recorded.

[0:21] Todd McKenney: Well, Shane's not a slob, but I'm an I am an I am a neat freak. I'm not a germaphobe, but I'm I'm a neat freak. Like a my house always has to look like a hotel before I go to bed. I'm one of those. And Shane's not like that. He'll have a shower, wash his undies while he's having a shower, then hang them up in the dressing room, and I'll go into his room before the show and I get a little bit of a head. I just want to fold up his clothes and put them away. And so that is very Oscar and Felix to you.

[1:04] Justin Clarke: I'm your host Justin Clarke, and I'm here to guide you through insightful conversations, behind-the-scenes stories, and thought-provoking discussions about everything theatre related.

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[1:37] Justin Clarke: So whether you're a seasoned theatregoer or just starting your journey, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this brand new episode of the Theatre Thoughts Podcast.

[1:52] Justin Clarke: Welcome everyone to a very, very special episode of the Theatre Thoughts Podcast. I have a guest on who I'm over the moon to talk to today. So we have an award-winning and critically acclaimed performer on both stage and screen who has entertained Australia for over 30 years. His most notable role has been Peter Allen in the Australian hit production of The Boy From Oz, which ran for over a thousand shows nationally. On television, he's become known often as the controversial judge on the Channel 7 hit series Dancing with the Stars. And he's the recipient of multiple awards, including the Mo Awards, Variety Club, Heart Award, Glug Award, Green Room Award, two Australian Dance Awards, and a Helpman Award is none other than Todd McKenney.

[2:32] Todd McKenney: Thank you so much for jumping on.

[2:34] Todd McKenney: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

[2:36] Todd McKenney: I am I'm over the moon. And it's been 40, you know, it's been 40 years. 40 years now.

[2:41] Todd McKenney: Yeah, so it was 40 years on um June the 21st last year. And it was 40 years for me and Ron DeBirchmore because we started in the same show on the same day. And Ronda and I are still dear, dear, dear. She's one of my closest friends. Um and so her and I actually got together on the 21st of June 2023 and uh and celebrated together. So yeah, 40 years.

[3:08] Justin Clarke: Oh my god. Congratulations. That's a massive feat.

[3:13] Todd McKenney: It is, but still here.

[3:14] Justin Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Well, all the best for it as well. I mean, we you're on to talk about uh the Odd Couple, which is coming to the Theatre Royal um in June this year and is starring none other than Shane Jacobson with you, um, which I didn't know you guys were such close friends.

[3:29] Todd McKenney: Oh, Shane and I are really, really dear friends. Like we met on I I mean, I'd seen his movies, I'd seen Kenny and I think Oddball and a couple of the others, uh, and always liked him as a personality and uh actor. I love him as an actor, and then he and I met on Channel 7's strip show. Well, it was a celebrity strip show in aid of mental health, um, called The All New Monty. He and I co-hosted it together, and then I choreographed it, and I took eight celebrities and had to teach them the strip from Dirty Dancing from um The Real Fool Monty, and um the and so the show was called The All New Monty, and then um Shane was one of the contestants or one of the participants as well.

[4:16] Todd McKenney: So 45 minutes after I met Shane, I was asking him to take his clothes off, and so it was a great icebreaker. And so Shane they said to me that the morning of the show, we were in a coffee shop over the road from the Endmore Theatre, and the producer said, Oh, you're gonna meet Shane this morning. And I said, Oh, fantastic. He came into the coffee shop, and Shane's a storyteller, and he just he'll tell a story to you, the person on the street, the shop assistant, the taxi driver, the anybody, Shane will have a chat, and uh he came in and he like plastered me back to my seat with this chat about his son.

[4:55] Todd McKenney: Amazing. And I it I felt like I was in a hurricane. And then I kind of started actually listening to Shane's story, and it was really good. And we just became really great friends from that second.

[5:09] Justin Clarke: That is so cool. I've only uh had the pleasure of meeting Shane once, and it was when I was really well, not really young, I was the young teenager, had more hair and at the time. Um and we he was in Guys and Dolls um at the Capitol, and um my mum took me out afterwards, and we met a couple of them, and um and I met Shane, and I was just um I remember he was a storyteller then as well. He talked about like he was because it was back when I wanted to be an actor, and he was like, um, oh, so you you know, I did theatre here, and I did theatre here, and this is what you need to do, and this is what you should do. And yeah, he was so lovely.

[5:40] Todd McKenney: That's the thing with Shane, he's like every man's man, like we've done I think three or four television shows together now. We've traveled around the world together, we've um shooting a show for channel seven, we've um done stage shows, we did Rocky Horror, we did Hairspray, and so I know Shane, like we can finish each other's sentences, and we've never got on each other's nerves. We're complete opposites. Shane always says that if you looked at my stats and his stats on paper, it should never work.

[6:11] Todd McKenney: Yeah, right. But for some reason it does, and I think it's because of Shane. So Shane's he's at home, whether it's with backstage with a group of gay thespians, as he is with the crusty demons of dirt out of all raceway. Um, and I just watched him as a chameleon, and uh but and people stop him all the time, and he's always got time for people. And The Odd Couple is actually a little bit of typecasting for both of us like that.

[6:43] Justin Clarke: Yeah, I was reading it and I was because I like everyone knows The Odd Couple the premise, and I was just like kind of looking at the bio just to get it back in my head, and I was like, Oh, so it's just basically Todd and Shane. Like, that's that's it's perfect.

[6:54] Todd McKenney: It is well, Shane's not a slob, but I'm an I am and I am a neat freak. I'm not a germophobe, but I'm I'm a neat freak. Like my house always has to look like a hotel before I go to bed. Yeah, I'm one of those, and Shane's not like that. Yeah, he'll have a shower, wash his undies while he's having a shower, then hang them up in the dressing room, and I'll go into his room before the show and I get a little bit of a I just want to fold up his clothes and put them away. So that is very Oscar and Felix in The Odd Couple.

[7:24] Justin Clarke: That's perfect. Well, I'll we'll get into The Odd Couple um throughout our chat, but I'd love to delve into um who you are first. So I know most people in Australia would know you, but for anyone who's you know uh overseas listening or has never watched any theatre in their life, um, tell us a little bit about where your journey started.

[7:50] Todd McKenney: Uh well, I'm the son of a dancing teacher and uh the grandson of a dancing teacher. So my grandmother was a dancing teacher, she taught Highland dancing and ballet dancing, and uh then my mum uh taught as well. My mum had a school in Perth with about 400 students for my whole childhood, so I just grew up in the dancing school environment. Uh and I also did competitive ballroom dancing at the same time, and then but my heart was really always in theatrical, just dancing, really.

[8:22] Todd McKenney: Uh, and so in 1983 there was an audition uh for Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Song and Dance. Uh and I just threw my hat in the ring and applied to audition and flew over to Adelaide and auditioned, and I then and I got the job. They were looking for an acrobat, and I was an acrobat as well. And so I started in musical theatre, and that just uh really just changed my life. And I've done I don't know, it's coming up to 40 shows, 40 professional productions now, and um really never look back, but Dancing with the Stars, being a judge on Dancing with the Stars for 20 years.

[8:58] Todd McKenney: Uh that really opened the doors for me because that was when free-to-wear television was uh really much more powerful than it is today because the streaming services weren't there and there weren't a lot of other distractions. And Dancing with the Stars was the most popular show in Australia. So three million people and its people watching it. And in Australia, that's a huge massive.

[9:18] Justin Clarke: Yeah.

[9:19] Todd McKenney: In England and um America, that's they're up in the 30 and 40 million. But for Australia, 3 million, yeah, it changed my life. It really beg it got to a point where I really couldn't walk down the street without somebody telling me what they thought of it. Because I was I like to call myself the honest judge.

[9:36] Todd McKenney: Yeah, yeah. I'm Dancing with the Stars. But everybody wanted to tell me what they thought of me. And the show was enormously popular, and but what it what it ultimately did was um open doors for me to be able to fill theatres and whether that's with my own show or musicals, it put me on the map, it made me sellable from a producer's point of view, with all of the stuff which I'm really grateful for.

[10:04] Todd McKenney: Um so that was the power of of television, and um it's just yeah, I I really haven't looked back. And my I my finger is in a lot of different pies, and I think that's been the key really to why I'm still around. So I've done radio and television presenting, plus um uh sort of hosting roles on TV and you know, and then um a variety of stuff on stage from straight plays to musicals, and so yeah, it's all because of a little dancing show, really.

[10:36] Justin Clarke: Yeah, yeah, just a little one.

[10:37] Todd McKenney: Yeah, I do I do remember uh like uh watching you know Dancing with the Stars, and I'd see the trailers for it back in the day, like on television be like, What's Todd McKenney got to say about so-and-so?

[10:48] Todd McKenney: And you got this like cheeky look on your face.

[10:50] Todd McKenney: Yeah, and they and superimposed flames coming out of my ears, and there was one where I had devil horns and a trident and you know, all of that stuff.

[10:58] Justin Clarke: So good.

[10:59] Todd McKenney: But yeah, even when I was reading your bio, like I obviously knew you've done a lot of shows, but even like I didn't know, for instance, that you played Frankenfurter in Rocky Horror. So like I was just like, Oh, you've really done it all.

[11:10] Todd McKenney: And then obviously Boy from Oz is your big one. Um, you know, yeah, well, Boy from Oz really put me on the map. Um, I suppose actually, actually, it's probably Boy from Oz rather than before Dancing with the Stars that really made me, even though I was kind of uh doing well in musical theatre, what Boy from Oz did it was the sort of the first Aussie show that celebrated the life of Peter Allen, which Australians loved.

[11:35] Todd McKenney: But I think it was the first Aussie show that actually got a new audience into see musical theatre, yeah, because they loved Peter Allen, he was such a celebrated Australian and a great Australian, and um so to play such an iconic role, uh suddenly my name was much more out there than just playing the lead in 42nd Street or whatever.

[11:56] Todd McKenney: Yeah, that's right. Um, and so I think without the success of The Boy from Oz, Dancing with the Stars producers probably wouldn't have looked at me, but because I'd had that success, that was really the tipping point.

[12:08] Justin Clarke: I think yeah, it all kind of feeds into one another, doesn't it? Especially in like the entertainment world, yeah.

[12:12] Todd McKenney: Well, it does, and that's why I love working for John Frost, our most prolific musical theatre producer. Because he yeah, because John A, we sort of started out at the same time, him him in the boss world and me in the you know um Thespian world as a cast member, and um we've sort of both worked our way up on different sides of the business and he he employs me more than anybody else, but I think one of the reasons is because John is acutely aware of the power of having a a name in in a show, and he understands how one side of showbiz, whether it be television or celebrity, feeds the other side, yeah.

[12:48] Todd McKenney: And they and then so then so he's he never really shies away, whereas a lot of other producers I think do shy away from people, you know, you know, and and I've been very fortunate that John has taken me, you know, under his yeah, definitely.

[13:02] Justin Clarke: I can definitely see that.

[13:03] Todd McKenney: Well, um, I'd love to before we jump on. If he retires, I'm yeah, but if he if he he backs out, you have to I've told him that too. I said you can't retire because if you retire, I'm no one no one else employs him. It's like, come on, stay, stay, please stay.

[13:17] Justin Clarke: Yeah, just feed him some great.

[13:21] Todd McKenney: You take care of him, be like, keep you in the business, mate. But that's the thing, you know, it's like we have enormous respect for each other, and I have enormous respect for the way he treats me and the cast, and his love of showbiz, and and I have the same love, and so it's a really great fit.

[13:36] Justin Clarke: Yeah, well, it's always good to have those relationships as well, and like say keeps you employed, which is always nice.

[13:42] Todd McKenney: Well, I'd love to ask you our um theatre thoughts questions. Um if you're up for it. Um we'll see how many we uh we can get through, and just basically kind of like off the top of your head, sort of things.

[13:51] Justin Clarke: Okay, um, all right, here we go. So I'd love to know what has been your favorite production you've seen recently.

[13:56] Todd McKenney: Well, Lone and Stands is on at the uh ensemble theatre at the moment with a group of um one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, seven or eight actors. Um, and it's about a it's written by a guy called John Breen, who's an Irish playwright, and it's about a little tiny Irish soccer team who took on the all blacks, and the all blacks were expected to win, and this little tiny Irish soccer team who'd never won anything in their lives beat the all blacks, incredible, and it was a really big deal. The thing I love about this production is that it's almost choreographed straight theatre. There's so much physical activity in it, and they play the eight actors play the Irish team and the new um all blacks.

[14:46] Justin Clarke: Yeah, right.

[14:46] Todd McKenney: So they're constantly changing at the drop of a hat from Irish accents to um to news New Zealand accents, and it it must be it's like it's like acting gymnastics watching them, and then there's physicality because that there's girls and boys playing rugby, and it was really fresh and exciting theatre. So that's great. I love the ensemble.

[15:09] Justin Clarke: Yeah, I love ensemble. I love going there.

[15:11] Todd McKenney: Um they do really good shows as well.

[15:14] Justin Clarke: I love yeah.

[15:15] Todd McKenney: Well, I think their philosophy ensemble theatre is to put on shows that people actually want to see, yeah. Not just because they're ticking the artsy fartsy box, yeah.

[15:26] Justin Clarke: All the yeah, but they've they put on plays that people want to see, and it doesn't it doesn't hurt to have a theatre that's sitting on the nice view going to that theatre. I always go early so I can sit at the bar and have a drink and just look out, yeah.

[15:41] Justin Clarke: Yeah, yeah, same, same great. All right. Um, well, I'd love to know um what is a dream role you'd love to tackle um still.

[15:49] Todd McKenney: Well, I haven't really got one. Um, I one of the roles, well, I I've ticked a lot of boxes in my life. I've ticked a lot of, I've reached a lot of goals, and goals I never even knew I'd reached. Like I know what it's like to lead a leader hit show like Boy from Models or whatever. I know what it's like to I know what celebrity feels like. Yeah. Um, I know what it's like to drive a television show, and and so I don't I kind of just let things sort of come to me and sort of I attack everything as it comes to me. And I've just finished doing two ABC drama series, which I've just had a ball doing. And so there's nothing, there's no particular role. My mum's favourite musical was Barnum.

[16:37] Justin Clarke: Oh, okay.

[16:38] Todd McKenney: And I was lucky enough a couple of years ago to do Barnum, but only we only did it in Melbourne at the Comedy Theatre. And that was a role I'd always wanted to do. And I think that was the last one that was actually on my bucket list, and I kind of wanted to do it so mum could see me do it. And also the guy who wrote Barnum, um, the musical was a man called Mark Brandle, and Mark gave me my first lead role, and he directed 42nd Street. And then Mark had always said to me throughout the years we kept in touch, and he'd he'd always said to me, You should do Barnum one day. Because he knew I had the circle skills and the acrobatic stuff. And he said, You should do Barnum one day. Anyway, I when I got Barnum, I actually called him in New York and I said, I'm doing Barnum, can you come down and see it?

And he said, Yes. I said he said, I've always wanted to see you in it. And unfortunately he passed away just as the show started and he didn't make it. But um, so that was really the last show at my bucket.

[17:30] Justin Clarke: Yeah.

[17:31] Todd McKenney: Oh wow, what a story.

[17:32] Justin Clarke: All right. Yeah. Well, it's always hard as well, because obviously I know you've got such a rich background, so it's always a tough question, that one. Um I'd love to know then, what's the most challenging show you've performed in?

[17:43] Todd McKenney: Uh there's a couple. Well, Boy from Oz was uh uh relentless as an actor because you were only off stage for uh to change your shirt and then you were back on, literally. Uh so that was a mountain to climb. It was challenging because you were going from Peter Allen in concert to Peter Allen uh storytelling in his scenes. So you're going from a tender moment into dissolving into him on stage singing the song about that moment. And so the gear changes in that show for an actor were uh challenging. Um and that was that was actually the hardest thing was the mental aspect of that. Um but I loved it, I just absolutely loved it. I mean, I finished I finished the boy from I was flying in from the ceiling on a giant luminous banana in a pair of red Jean-Paul Gaudier sequin pajamas singing I got a Rio.

I mean, what's wrong with that? What's not to love about that? To die a happy man. If I you know never worked again, I would have been happy. But um, so that so that was a challenge. And then I did a play for ensemble theatre with Nancy Hayes called Six Dance Lessons in Six Weeks, which was just a two-hander, and that was the first straight play I'd ever done. And it was a challenge to I realized in musical theatre how often when we're doing the scenes, we're really just heading towards the Razamataz of the musical number. Well, in my sort of theatre, the Razamatazz of the musical number, and to not have that um thing to aim for. I I chall I was it was challenging to kind of uh I kept feeling like, oh, we should do a number here.

Yeah it's like when are we about to sing? I'm about to sing yeah it was kind of that yeah the play was a huge hit we ran for two years and um I loved it but what I did come out of that realizing is that you can have the same uh feeling of when you've just finished a big number and the crowd go nuts you you can have that same feeling dramatically when you hit a certain scene right in the sweet spot and you can feel the audience are sitting forward in their seats buying the storytelling so that became the replacement for the Razumatazz and the numbers was trying to nail a scene so I found that really challenging and it was also so much dialogue um because there was no song and dance and so everything was spoken there was big pages and pages of monologues and that was hard to learn and but I loved it and and it taught me to act to really act um Nancy Hayes taught me to really act by just for me watching her in that show.

[20:24] Justin Clarke: Yeah which incredible woman incredible yes I named my dog up yeah exactly well um final question then is uh which production would you most want to see come to Australia oh what I like to see come to Australia well I don't know I don't know what I don't really know what's on I mean I haven't done a ferret around the internet to see what is on do you know what I would love actually I would love 42nd Street to come back because the new production of 42nd Street which I saw at Drury Lane oh my god they've super sized it it.

[21:01] Todd McKenney: It's like a big big um sort of uh um mummy of Broadway theatre um uh at its best and the 42nd street number at the end, the reprise where all these dancers come over these giant staircases and they sing every single I saw it I think in like 2017-18 when I lived in the UK because my friend was like, if you love musical theatre, you have to see this. I was like that finale where they just keep coming over the stairs and coming over the stairs. Incredible. I was like by the end of it, I was just like I I actually was like looking at their bios afterwards. I was like, the stamina you need for that show is like on par with like gotta be Olympic athletes.

[21:41] Justin Clarke: Well, and also it's a cast of 50 people.

[21:43] Todd McKenney: I know I I know John Frost has the rights to do it, but it's a cast of 50 people, and in Australia, we just don't have the um the theatre going numbers, right? Just sheer numbers to make it work. Yeah, I think it would just be a good thing. Yeah, so I think I don't think it's gonna come to Australia anytime soon, but that I would love to see come to that Australia.

[22:07] Justin Clarke: Great, excellent. Well, thank you so much for um for answering those questions. I love like seeing and picking like the minds of all my guests and seeing what they like about theatre. So it's really good, especially from someone who's um you know with such a rich history as yourself. So thank you so much.

[22:20] Todd McKenney: My pleasure.

[22:21] Justin Clarke: So I'm gonna take a quick little ad break and then we'll talk about the odd couple.

[22:24] Todd McKenney: So the odd couple. So we all know like the odd couple, two different men, Felix and Oscar. Um couldn't be more opposite. It was the film in 1968, um, which was also written by Neil Simon, who um I believe he won the Tony uh for best um writer of a play.

[22:40] Justin Clarke: Um and the odd couple itself on Broadway was nominated for a Tony.

[22:44] Todd McKenney: Um so I I'd love to know why, why do you because I mean I kind of get an inkling, obviously you and Shane are perfect, um caring, but why why this play and why now?

[22:55] Todd McKenney: Well, it well, the way it came up, well, I've always loved the odd couple. I've always uh I grew up with it, I grew up with the TV show. Um, and that was we always watched that when it was on with in the it was on in our lounge room, and um and the movie, of course, I'd seen, and but the way this happened though is that but Shane and I had such a great working relationship uh in hairspray. He played the John Travolta roll Edna Turnblade, and I played his husband, Wilbur.

[23:22] Justin Clarke: Yeah, I just remember I came to see the show at the at the lyric and um it was on the weekend of what was the big event? I think it was the the world Mardi Gras or something like that. World Pride, that was it. And um it was the night where he kissed you, and I was like and I was like, was that stage? Was that not stage? Because your reaction was priceless.

[23:43] Todd McKenney: He kissed me about three times, and I think I said to him, if you do it again, I'm gonna have to charge you. I was gonna give you an invoice.

[23:51] Justin Clarke: No, we had a ball, so there's a part it because I didn't want to do hairspray because I thought I didn't really want to play a little old man, and it was a small role, and I'd just done Cinderella, which was a small role again. I thought I didn't know I don't mind playing small roles, but two in a row, I thought I might get bored.

[24:10] Todd McKenney: Um, and so I I said no, and then John Frost and Shane got on the phone together with each other, and they both just gained up on me. And Shane said, No, come on, play my husband, it'll be fun. You won't have the you won't have the pressure of you know running the show. He said, I'll be in drag in a fat suit, I'll be doing all the heavy lifting. You just have to toddle on to a scene, and we get this great number in the second act. And so I did my due diligence and Googled, you know, Wilbur and Edna hairspray, and I saw the number and thought, well, it's the only number I get in the show, but what a number. Because built into the middle of that number is even in the director's notes.

[25:02] Todd McKenney: And then the other note underneath it is to the resident director, which says, keep an eye on this, this can go on too long.

[25:10] Todd McKenney: And Shane and I go, we don't know what you're talking about. Some nights it we would go on, and but that night that you saw it, that was World Pride.

[25:18] Todd McKenney: So Edna has to kiss Wilbur at some point, but it's normally just a little peck. But that night he kissed me three times. And I was like, you know, I love Shane, but I never thought I would end up kissing him in front of 2,000 people every night. And it laughed. It made me laugh.

[25:34] Todd McKenney: And so Shane and I at the end of towards the end of Hairspray said, let's do a two-man show together with just a piano with Guy Noble on piano. Where a bit like Martin Short and Steve Martin, a little along those lines where I do 20 minutes, you do 20 minutes, we do 40 minutes together, we kind of sit on chairs, we interview each other, we sing songs related to each other's lives, and it'll be hysterical because we're both good off the cuff.

[26:08] Todd McKenney: And he and I so we started to write it, and we'll still do it at some point. And we were thinking of names for it, and he wanted to call it uh Todd McKenney and Shane Jacobson Together at last, not that anybody asked for it.

[26:23] Todd McKenney: That's great. It's a great name.

[26:25] Todd McKenney: It's a great name. Or the other one we loved was Hottest Ticket in Town Sydney Morning Herald.

[26:31] Todd McKenney: Yes.

[26:32] Todd McKenney: As the whole title. Anyway, and then I said to Shane, well, do you know what it is? Because we were we were saying, well, what is the show? I said, It's the odd couple, we're the odd couple.

[26:42] Todd McKenney: And Shane said, well, apart from the fact that Neil Simon's estate will sue us if we called it the odd couple, um, we should call it the odd couple. And then as we both said it, we went, we should do the odd couple at some point. And that seed planted, and then um Frosty came to us at the end of the season, towards the end of the season of Hairspray, and was in my dressing room with Shane, and um he said, I'd love you two to work together again.

[27:09] Todd McKenney: And Shane and I went, the odd couple.

[27:12] Todd McKenney: Excellent. And it happened, and now we're doing it. It happened really quickly. Frosty went, I love it, let's do it.

[27:18] Todd McKenney: So it happened so far.

[27:19] Justin Clarke: That's so good.

[27:20] Justin Clarke: Wow, incredible. It's gonna be a great show. Because obviously, you two have such chemistry, and like coming back to the Hairspray thing, I was sitting there thinking, like, I've seen a lot of theatre, and you can sometimes tell when there's a written like break the fourth wall, and sometimes you can't.

[27:36] Justin Clarke: And you guys were making me guess whether it was written or not.

[27:40] Todd McKenney: Everybody did. It was the most common question after a show at stage door was was that you know, was that that and we have I still have people coming up to me saying, I was in a the night that you and Shane cracked up, and I go, oh yeah, but the audience walk away with that feeling, they go, oh, when I saw it, they broke up laughing, and oh my god, that's so cool.

[28:01] Todd McKenney: Well, the funny thing is though, um, and this is the thing I love about working with Shane. We're both so comfortable with each other that no matter who lobs something theatrically at the other one, you know the other one is gonna pick it up, and you don't know how they're gonna pick it up, but you trust that it's going to be picked up in a way that you can play with it, and that's the relationship that Shane and I have with each other.

[28:26] Todd McKenney: But we have that we have that um in our everyday life together as well. So uh that's rare.

[28:33] Todd McKenney: So we're not really faking it, and in that moment in Hairspray, we never actually did the same thing twice.

[28:39] Justin Clarke: Yeah, and do you think you're gonna find it difficult to do that around like a written script that requires that back and forth, but it's as written?

[28:50] Todd McKenney: Uh, that's a great question, and that was one of the first questions that we asked Mark Kilmurray, who is the director, whether we can break the fourth wall.

[28:59] Todd McKenney: It's written, and it's actually stated that the actors shouldn't break the fourth wall, yeah.

[29:04] Justin Clarke: Right.

[29:07] Todd McKenney: It's Shane and I'm how you're gonna do it, and and the director's not gonna be there every night, you know what I mean?

[29:14] Todd McKenney: That's it, that's it. He's gonna need to know, yeah.

[29:17] Todd McKenney: We just need to know the nights that is not there.

[29:19] Todd McKenney: So we're gonna we're actually going to play with that during rehearsals, and it might not be breaking the fourth wall, it might be just a look to each other, a pause, and then move on.

[29:31] Todd McKenney: Yeah, right. Um, so we stay in the world, we let the audience know that that's a little bit of a camp idea that just happened there.

[29:40] Todd McKenney: Because especially because people know also my they know about me, they know that I'm gay, they know that Shane's really straight, and so that kind of changes, and it's a little bit of a it's almost written.

[29:53] Todd McKenney: There's a slight gay overtone whole thing, yeah.

[29:56] Justin Clarke: Right, okay.

[29:57] Todd McKenney: Um, just in the way it's written. I'm sure I don't know whether it was intended, but in the way we look at two men sharing a house together these days, it certainly is heightened in today's society, probably more so than when it was written in 1968.

[30:13] Todd McKenney: So I think it's a we'll we'll see whether we can lean into that without bastardizing the peaks.

[30:20] Justin Clarke: Yeah, right. I think that's great. Very exciting. I'm very excited to see it.

[30:23] Todd McKenney: It's gonna be a laugh a minute.

[30:25] Todd McKenney: I hope it's not a flop.

[30:26] Todd McKenney: Oh my god, everybody's going, this is such a great no-brainer, no-brainer.

[30:31] Todd McKenney: I'm such a shame. We better get this right, you know.

[30:34] Justin Clarke: Yeah, exactly. I'm sure you'd be fine.

[30:38] Justin Clarke: I'm sure you'll be fine.

[30:40] Justin Clarke: Well, um, before we finish up, I'd love to ask you the question ask all my guests um who come on.

[30:45] Justin Clarke: I'd love to know um in your experience, how has the theatre industry changed over the years, and how have those changes sort of impacted the work that you do and participate in?

[30:55] Todd McKenney: Oh, it's changed, it's really different. I think um uh many regards uh in a good way, and in some regards, I think we're we're suffering a little bit from the sign of the times.

[31:12] Todd McKenney: I think it's really important that we're focusing on having a safe working space across all departments and across every industry, to be honest with you.

[31:22] Todd McKenney: But I wonder whether we're just policing that a little bit too far, and maybe um igniting problems by really dissecting what a safe space is and all of that.

[31:36] Todd McKenney: I think a lot of it's got to do with decency, common sense, intelligence, respect for everybody. Um, but we seem to keep having workshops about every aspect of the safe place.

[31:48] Todd McKenney: And I think that sometimes sanitizers can sanitize the situation too much.

[31:56] Todd McKenney: I wonder, and I just wonder whether we've we've sort of done that, and the pendulum needs to sort of come back to some sort of middle ground.

[32:02] Todd McKenney: Because again, it comes back to decency and respect.

[32:07] Todd McKenney: And you're always going to have buffoons who carry on.

[32:11] Todd McKenney: I think the most important thing that we've done is that we've really head-on faced any um uh what have you called bullying, yeah, um, and sexual discrimination or sexual harassment.

[32:28] Todd McKenney: I think that's really important because you look at what we do, which is completely unique to almost any other industry.

[32:35] Justin Clarke: Yeah, of course.

[32:36] Todd McKenney: Is that we spend hours in the semi-darkness backstage in our underwear?

[32:41] Justin Clarke: Yeah, yeah.

[32:43] Todd McKenney: That's the reality. That's what we do.

[32:46] Todd McKenney: And so you must, must, must know that that space it's it's a space of respect, it's part of what you have to do, and I think cleaning that up and putting a focus on that is great.

[33:00] Todd McKenney: But I come from a from a um part of the industry, a time in the industry where there seem to be more fun backstage.

[33:13] Justin Clarke: Right, okay.

[33:14] Todd McKenney: I wonder whether we're just knocking a bit of the fun out of it because of the rules and regulations.

[33:19] Todd McKenney: I get why they're there.

[33:20] Todd McKenney: I'm glad that I've experienced both.

[33:23] Todd McKenney: Yeah, because you would have seen both sides of the show.

[33:25] Todd McKenney: I've been there through the change.

[33:27] Justin Clarke: Yeah.

[33:27] Todd McKenney: Um you just sort of have to second guess everything, and I don't know.

[33:32] Todd McKenney: It's I think it's done for the right reasons.

[33:36] Todd McKenney: Um I think the bottom line is.

[33:38] Todd McKenney: I mean, we sit through three or four workshops before in during every rehearsal period.

[33:42] Todd McKenney: I've done those workshops five or six times now, and then I've never harassed or sexually harassed or bullied anybody, right?

[33:50] Todd McKenney: Um, but I get why we have to do it, but I um I it it's to me it's it's it's about we are so lucky to work in theatre.

[34:01] Todd McKenney: We're so lucky. We work in a job where if we do our job right, two thousand people are going to go hooray.

[34:06] Justin Clarke: Yeah, exactly.

[34:07] Todd McKenney: It's a massive my friends who are nurses, they think what I do getting clapped and getting champagne on opening nights and flowers is ridiculous.

[34:16] Todd McKenney: And I get that. I totally get it.

[34:18] Todd McKenney: We I totally get it. And none of them, I'm a lot of my friends and nurses, none of them send me anything on opening nights.

[34:27] Todd McKenney: You were sick of it by now.

[34:28] Todd McKenney: Like, yeah, yeah.

[34:29] Todd McKenney: They're like, do you know what I did today? I took a guy's tracheotomy out.

[34:33] Todd McKenney: You know, I suck the clam out of a man's throat through a tube, and no one sent me flowers.

[34:40] Todd McKenney: You know, and I get that, it's a great leveler.

[34:43] Todd McKenney: But um, you know, it's uh the bottom line is that we're in a blessed position to do something that people love.

[34:51] Todd McKenney: We are in a luxury industry where we're an industry that is designed to make people think and feel good, and they've spent their money to come and see a show, and uh I think the most important thing is just to realize that it's it it's really important for us to turn up, do the eight shows a week, not take 65 shows off during a season, and that's something I think that we need to watch.

[35:15] Todd McKenney: Um support each other and nurture each other and just realise that we are doing you you can only do theatre if you love it.

[35:22] Justin Clarke: Yeah.

[35:22] Todd McKenney: Because there are days where your dog's passed away, where you've smashed the car on the way to work, and you just do not want to get on the stage.

[35:29] Justin Clarke: Yeah.

[35:30] Todd McKenney: But you have to, because the same thing could have happened to 20 people in the audience.

[35:34] Todd McKenney: And so I just think we've got to realise and always remember what a what a cherished position we're in.

[35:41] Todd McKenney: And I hope um, and it's not just all about rules and regulations, it's about you know love and and and giving people a couple of hours of respite from what could have been a really nasty day for them.

[35:53] Justin Clarke: Yeah, exactly.

[35:54] Todd McKenney: And you know, and just remember that that's what we do.

[35:57] Justin Clarke: Yeah, great.

[35:58] Justin Clarke: Well said, I couldn't say it better than myself.

[35:59] Todd McKenney: Thank you so much.

[36:00] Justin Clarke: Well, um, sorry, I was about to call you Shane.

[36:03] Justin Clarke: I had Shane in my head. I'm so sorry, Todd.

[36:05] Justin Clarke: I'm so sorry. We're so similar.

[36:08] Justin Clarke: Well, Todd, Todd, thank you so much for joining me uh for this chat.

[36:12] Todd McKenney: This has been amazing. Thank you so much for your time, and um, I'm really excited to see the show.

[36:17] Todd McKenney: It's gonna be a hoot, an absolute hoot.

[36:20] Todd McKenney: Don't put pressure on me.

[36:22] Todd McKenney: It's gonna be terrible.

[36:23] Todd McKenney: It's gonna be hideous.

[36:24] Todd McKenney: If it's good, it'll be a nice surprise.

[36:26] Justin Clarke: Exactly.

[36:28] Justin Clarke: Well, thank you so much.

[36:29] Todd McKenney: My pleasure.

[36:30] Todd McKenney: It's been lovely chatting to you.

[36:35] Justin Clarke: A massive thank you to Todd McKenney for joining us for our very first episode of season four.

[36:40] Justin Clarke: You can see Shane Jacobson and Todd McKenney star in The Odd Couple at the Comedy Theatre Melbourne from the 18th of May until the 16th of June.

[36:48] Justin Clarke: In Sydney, you can see The Odd Couple at the Theatre Royal Sydney from the 27th of June until the 21st of July.

[36:54] Justin Clarke: Tickets and information can be found in this episode's description.

[36:57] Justin Clarke: This episode was produced by Echidna Audio.

[37:00] Justin Clarke: Follow them on Instagram at Echidna Audio for all their audio services.

[37:04] Justin Clarke: Once again, if you enjoyed our podcast, leave us a review wherever you get your podcast and head to the link in this episode's description for our Instagram account, TikTok, YouTube, and Patreon.

[37:14] Justin Clarke: My name's Justin Clarke, and I'll see you next time here on The Theatre Thoughts Podcast.