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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, hi. I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one who died.

[0:28] Speaker 2: Welcome to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have a special bonus episode for you. I teamed up with another podcast that's also part of the Broadway Podcast Network, family and I sat down with Adam Rothenberg, the host of bearing it all with call me Adam Adam, and I decided to do a little bit of a hybrid episode, where I interviewed him on why he hates the musical Cats, and then he interviewed me to hear my cats theories. You can hear the full episode by visiting Adams podcast at, call me adam.com but here's a piece of our conversation.

[1:07] Speaker 3: Well, you came to New York City in 2016 for a job. You you were living growing up in Indiana prior to that, and you also had never seen a Broadway show prior to coming to New York.

[1:20] Speaker 2: No so I had seen a couple, okay, we had taken trips with school family, and we went and saw some, you know, some pretty standard things, like Jersey Boys back in the day, but Indiana gets five traveling Broadway productions a year, and I went. Usually went to probably two or three of those with my mom every year. But I rarely went to what I would consider the classics. I would go to either stuff that was really interesting, that I was interested in as like a high schooler, or stuff that no one else in my family wanted to go to. And so it defaulted to me. And so with you know, cousins and my sister and my dad and other people, we had two tickets to the five shows as a season take holder. So when I got to New York, I, you know, I realized that I could go any night of the week, basically, and I lived pretty close there. My I was in temporary housing right when I moved, and it was literally in the middle of the theater district. So I kept thinking, why do I not go see these shows? They're they're here, they're performing every night. And so that was when I decided to try to understand and appreciate, like, the classic Broadway stuff. Because, again, I don't, I don't know much. I really, most of the time I had seen a movie version of it or a little bit, but I just, I, you know, I didn't even know really much about any of these shows that you listed. So was,

[2:39] Speaker 3: was cats, the first classic you saw upon arriving New York. Or did you see Phantom before that? I've still

[2:46] Speaker 2: never seen Phantom. Still never seen Les Mis. So I did a really bad job of doing this. I ended up seeing a lot of stuff where the lottery tickets or something ended up like a play that ended up pretty easy. Cats happened because it was reviving in 2016 right? And I knew Leona Lewis was going to be Cresa Bella. And I have a friend from college who I consistently tell her that this entire podcast is her fault because she works on Broadway, she works in stage production and with a bunch of different shows, and she somehow, I don't know if it was one of her shows or how she ended up, but she basically was like, great. I got two tickets to go see cats. Let's go. And it was the Saturday before. It was the second to last preview. And so I was told it was at that point. I didn't know what a preview was. I didn't know what any of this meant. It was a Saturday matinee show, and I decided to go. So

[3:42] Speaker 3: cats was like, your first classic Broadway show that you saw. Yeah,

[3:47] Speaker 2: first one that I would consider, you know, I'd especially on Broadway. Yes, anything else I had seen, if I even saw it, I don't remember much about it. Like, I remember we went to New York for a school trip, and we saw Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[4:01] Speaker 3: Oh, I love that show. I would say that's like, definitely my top five. I couldn't tell

[4:04] Speaker 2: you a single thing about what it was. I don't remember a single thing about it. It was, I was too young, and it was just the show that could fit, you know, 30 students from Indiana, right? Because

[4:14] Speaker 3: it was at the Marriott Marquis, which is one of the bigger theaters on Broadway.

[4:18] Speaker 2: Oh, that makes sense. I don't remember. I literally don't remember anything about

[4:22] Speaker 3: that. Plus, I would say for students, that's a pretty safe show. You know, they're not going to be exposed to a lot of bad language or suggestive scenes or, yeah, there's not an uncle molesting a mute basically, exactly. But that was the that was, like the breakout role for Sutton Foster that really would put her on the map. And she was, I mean, that whole cast was just so delicious. It was Sutton Foster. Gavin Creel, you

[4:52] Speaker 2: can keep naming names, but this is like gibberish to me. I think you know that, right?

[4:56] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. I just wanted to put it out there. I just have to name drop a little. For

[5:00] Speaker 2: everyone they've got for everyone else. I don't know who that is. I should, maybe I should, but this, again, this is not my, my world.

[5:08] Speaker 3: I mean, at this point you should. Do you watch younger on TV Land? No, okay, because Sutton Foster they're going to their seventh season and final season. Sutton Fauci is on that. Do you know Hilary Duff, the singer, I do know Hillary Duff. Okay, so she's on that show too. Peter Herman, who's mirska Hargitay from SVU, okay, her husband, he's on that show. It's a phenomenal cast. Miriam, sure. Who's

[5:34] Speaker 2: I can name probably 15 players on most basketball teams, but I don't know any of these names. Well, that would be a couple of them.

[5:41] Speaker 3: That would be the difference. I would know maybe one or two of the basketball players that you mentioned. That's

[5:51] Speaker 3: So bringing it back to cats. So did cats make you excited to see other shows, or did it deter you a little bit for fear that the shows would be a similar catastrophe. Well, let me,

[6:03] Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit more about what happened that day. So I woke up that morning, the tickets were at will call, and my friend was very, very sick. And so I had been living in New York for, maybe I want to say, three weeks. I knew a few people from college and from, you know, just various parts of my life that lived in New York, and I have an hour to try to convince someone to come see it with me. Wow. And I finally, I texted a few people, and I was like, I'm not going to text any of my new co workers or anything like this, because saying, like, Hey, you want to come see cats at 12 o'clock on or two o'clock, whatever time it shows on a Saturday when it's pouring out. So I never just going by myself, and I didn't drink or take drugs or do anything, and so I left just mesmerized in every fashion of the way, like I never read about what these musicals are before I go in. So unlike you, I generally don't have no idea what the story is or what is coming. I remember I saw Fun Home. Had no idea that that was not an uplifting, fun story. I I walked out going, Oh, that was it was very well done, but just not what I was expecting to see. And that's kind of how I felt about cats, is that it felt like an acid trip, but I wasn't prepared, because no one told me to take drugs before,

[7:23] Speaker 3: right? I mean, I don't typically read reviews before I go see a show. I actually choose. I mean, that as an adult, I will say I choose a show more based upon who's in it, then, then what it's about. Okay?

[7:36] Speaker 2: That makes sense. I mean, I would say it's not just a review of if I've heard, heard it good or bad. Sometimes I don't even know the overarching theme of these plays.

[7:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, yes. I try to at least find out generally what it's about. But sometimes I do just go in blindly, because I just, I don't care what it's about. I love the people who are in it. Yeah,

[7:57] Speaker 2: I did that with, I think it was called Blackbird, the one with Jeff Daniels. Oh, yes, yeah, that was real dark To Kill a

[8:06] Speaker 2: No, no, I saw I saw that too. But there was, um, I think it was called Blackbird. It was something where, basically Michelle Williams and him are the only two characters, and she confronts him about him molesting her. This is a theme with this episode for us. Yes,

[8:23] Speaker 2: had no idea what that was about. I just thought, like, Hey, this is a guy from Dumb and Dumber and Michelle Williams like that should be cool. And then you walk in and all of a sudden, for like five minutes in, she's talking about how he basically molested her as a child. And so I started to I should read more about what these musicals and plays are before I go see them,

[8:40] Speaker 3: yes? So you at least know what to just a broad

[8:46] Speaker 2: theme, yeah? Like, I don't need to know everything, but just kind of have a decent idea of what I'm seeing,

[8:50] Speaker 3: right? So you might know what emotions might get sparked. Yeah? Because, unless

[8:54] Speaker 2: it's a big play, like, you know, like, I knew going to see dear Evan Hansen, what I was getting myself into,

[8:59] Speaker 3: which was phenomenal. I love that musical. Yeah,

[9:04] Speaker 2: it was, it was tiring as a as an audience member, I was exhausted when I left.

[9:08] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's so, it's, there's so much emotion in that show that, yes, you are exhausted when you leave. So, so let's just go back to cats for a moment. So how did you So you found someone to come with you? No,

[9:24] Speaker 2: I went by myself. You said, sorry. Two empty seats. I was sitting next to two nuns and two people that were not from the likes to international people that really didn't. They weren't talking in English at all during the thing, before, during, during intermission and and, but they loved it. Those two were eating it up. So they makes me think that knowing the language might not matter in cats, but um, but yeah. I just had two seats. I threw my backpack on one, and they were really good seats, because I think they came from the theater, but um, but yeah. I was very grateful I was not on the aisle. No, because the the green eyes, the first number, where they're in the crowd, that I'm not, I don't want to be a participant in a play I like to watch, and that would have scared the hell out of me. It did scare the hell out of me, but it would have really scared the hell out of me if I was on the aisle.

[10:13] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. Understandably so. Now, after you saw it, were you excited to go see other classic shows. Or were you a little nervous? I don't say,

[10:23] Speaker 2: I don't think I was a little nervous. I I still kind of stuck to what I had been doing before, which is, I am at the epicenter of Broadway, you know, like the the best of the best. Like, I do appreciate, just like when I see a professional sports game, you're seeing the people at the top of their field. And I do enjoy that aspect of Broadway and in general, so I haven't, I still haven't seen a couple of them. So I don't think it's like, Oh, I gotta rush to, you know, to the theater to see these. But it definitely didn't stop me from, you know, wanting to go see more shows, and still being interested in Broadway. Well, that's

[10:57] Speaker 3: good. That's good because sometimes it can, I mean, I have met people in my life who are like, Oh yeah, I saw it, and I didn't, not necessarily cats, but they saw something on Broadway, and they didn't really love it, and it sort of has deterred them from trying out other shows. So I'm glad to hear that it still makes you want to see other shows. I

[11:18] Speaker 2: just think, when you're in New York, you have at your fingertips, and usually for, you know, if you, if you're willing to, kind of get tickets day of, and you can get, you can get pretty, really impressive and good deals on these incredible shows. I mean, again, you're, you've interviewed these people, you've met these people. Like, these are the best of the best at what they do. And like, I just find that really cool to watch and live. Live everything is, to me, such an impressive feat. So I will, you know, I'll go see pretty much everything. But now I'm at least a little bit smarter walking in, I have some idea of what, what's happening,

[11:52] Speaker 3: yeah. So that's good. I mean, I do love a live show. I remember when I first started working in Broadway, I saw, I saw more theater when I first started working with group sales than I had seen prior to growing up, because we would go in, come into the city maybe once a year to see a show. I remember the first time I went to see a movie after working in Group Sales, and I left. I forgot what movie it was, but I just remember leaving disappointed a little bit, because there was no, there wasn't that live action happening, and you get a little

[12:29] Speaker 2: spoiled, yeah, in New York, and you get to see him, you know, whenever you want. Yes.

[12:33] Speaker 3: And I actually stopped going to movies for a while because I didn't have that, that live experience that the theater had for me

[12:46] Speaker 3: especially now, yeah, so how long after seeing cats, did you come up with the idea to host your podcast?

[12:55] Speaker 2: So right after I saw the musical, The first time I was writing a newsletter, blog kind of thing for just very small for my friends and family at home. Because, you know, moving from Indiana to New York, you a lot of stuff people just accept as real as life in New York are not normal. And so I was, as a fairly observant person was seeing stuff on the subways and just walking around the city that I'm like, that, wait, we're just going to be okay with that, like in New York. And you do, you become immune to it. I've been in New York long enough now that I just walk by and I'm like, Oh yeah, that's just a Tuesday, right? But early on, it was, it was appalling and very for me, entertaining and interesting. So I was, I was writing a very short here's how things are going at work. Here's what it's like living in the city. Here's what I did. And again, like there's so many things to do, like Broadway and live, live, interactive theater and all kinds of stuff that's that is is available in Manhattan. So this was the first time where I, instead of writing any update. I just wrote about cats, and it reminded me, I used to write a sports based humor column in college, but this was a I went back to that roots of where I'm just, I'm just gonna go back to that style of writing, and I'm going to just really go after this show. And it was mindless. It was fun. I think, you know, I've sent it to a few people at the network since, because I really enjoyed it. But it got, I got known within my family and friends in Indiana as the person that they thought I hated it, which I think is an overstatement, or they thought, like, I'm the cat's guy now, like I'm the one that knows all about this. So when the trailer for the movie came out and nearly broke the internet. I had probably 25 text messages of people sending it to me, and I just decided, You know what, I'm gonna make a joke about it. So I posted a joke on social media where I was standing on a stage giving a speech not at all related to cats and. And I just posted Chris Bell was the wrong cat to die. Welcome to my TED Talk as the joke. And that was when the wonderful host of the theater podcast with Alan Seales, Mr. Alan Seales podcast, Dad reached out to me and said, I should make that my podcast. And so I originally said, No chance. No way. I'm not doing this. Like, I don't know anything about this show. I don't know any of the characters names like I remember Mungo Jerry and Rumpel teaser, because that was the one song that stuck, that got stuck in my head. And then I was like, All right, let me try to write an episode. And I wrote the very first episode about Old Deuteronomy. And I while researching the dark, dark, dark web of cats, fan, fan fiction, fan everything. I found so much information, and it was immediately just blew my mind. And so I realized it'd be very interesting and entertaining to break it down. But since I don't know anything about, you know, again, the the actors and the people performing, and who wrote it, and why, I just decided to break it down as as the plot. And so I still to this day, you could tell me somebody from the original production, name names from the production you saw people from the other 2016 revival, and I'll be like, who? Who's that? I have no idea. Oh, they played mccaviddy. Okay, great. I have some questions, because here's how, here's what I think about my cavity, and that's where I'm at. I learned about Gilbert. Gilbert was a cat I learned about this week, which I found was fascinating. So I'm gonna break down a little bit about Gilbert in my episode number 13. But it's it's to me, like every time I click through there, I found 4600 pages devoted to cats on the Wikipedia fan page. Wow,

[16:45] Speaker 3: that's incredible. I mean, definitely evokes it. I feel like it is not the only one musical, but it definitely is one of the top musicals that evokes such emotion for people and and I do sort of agree that people either they either love it or they hate it. There is no in between. And I know, I'm pretty sure you've touched upon that in some of your earlier episodes about how you either love it or hate it. Yeah,

[17:13] Speaker 2: I don't think there's a middle. I mean, there's your version where you saw and just was like, get me out of here as fast as possible. And then there's people who want to see it 1000 more times. I might be a little bit in the middle of where I'm fascinated by the writing and the story, and I've only, I've only seen it twice. I saw the 2016 revival on the preview, and then I saw one other time in that run with a friend who came visiting from Indiana, who was really, really dying to see it. And so we went back, and it was almost exactly a year later to the date, and maybe Paris was the Grizzle at the time. And it was another wild experience. I did have alcohol before that one, though, so I was a little bit prepared

[17:59] Speaker 2: now from from hosting your podcast and all the research you've done on the show, I mean, what have you learned about about cats? Do you feel like there actually is a story there? So I

[18:14] Speaker 2: think there's definitely a loose interpretation of it, and it's kind of more fun. I think intentionally, it's left very wide open. There's the part I've enjoyed most of doing this podcast is, as I've talked to some of the members of the 2016 revival, the different direction that they got from the choreographers, the producers. Everyone knows working on the show is just fascinating. You know, you're hearing them tell stories about how they were writing their own back stories to make sure that they really got into the character, and then they're trying to make it their own in these different versions. And so I think there's some more depth to it, then there's obviously a lot, a lot there, but it's also very open to interpretation, which I think was intentional, but I have really, I've just enjoyed trying to figure out some of the nuances that if you accept some of these rumors and theories as fact, it paints a really, really strange picture. And that's been hilarious to me, when you really dig into the different characters, if they're related, if they're, you know, they're with other cats. If they're, you know, if they should have had this, you know, why did they disappear? And some of it, I can, I'm guessing, because, again, I don't really know enough about how theater really works. I'm guessing some of them because they just needed a dancer and the opening number, and then they needed someone to play that later. So they just, they changed. And other times I'm sitting there going, Well, maybe if I read into the story, there's more to that. Here's how I can interpret it.

[19:48] Speaker 3: Is there any is there any fact you found out from hosting your podcast that shocked you?

[19:57] Speaker 2: Shocked me. I. No, I mean, I just, I've been trying to figure out the family tree, and it's very clear that there is not one, because there, there's no way to, like, there's only a couple that have been confirmed by productions which, you know, that's an actor or somebody saying it, you know, in an interview, before after. But I would love to see what that hierarchy looks like if you tried to break it down. So that's the part that I think I've been most shocked about, is the more I dig into each character. Because most of the time I don't know much about the character until I start researching them, and then I tie it back to oh, well, if I now that I know this about that character, here's what this would say. And it gets really it's a really dark web that you can weave in and out of these characters. Are

[20:52] Speaker 3: there other Broadway shows where you feel the wrong character has died, similar to how you feel Grizabella was the wrong cat to die. So

[21:01] Speaker 2: I don't know enough about like, when people die at the end, like most of the shows, I'm just, I'm usually exhausted by the end. And so if somebody dies at the end, I'm usually at that point, right? One that I think, and I've only seen it once, and I've never seen on Broadway. I saw the production traveling wicked is kind of an interesting one. It is definitely, if you kind of break down, there some some nuances to that story. But I don't know if I'm I'm not qualified to tell people that I would have wrote this show differently, even as a parody. So I've enjoyed it for cats, because I don't think anybody has a consensus on what cats is supposed to be, right? But there are going to be people who have legitimate opinions about other shows that I'm not the I'm not the person to give those answers, yes,

[21:50] Speaker 3: yes. Understood. Understood. Well, if we have time, do we have time for a quick game? Sure. Okay, so let's play a game called the wrong cat died, which is an honor and celebration of your podcast. Okay, so since cats have nine lives, if there were nine different productions of cats where a different cat died in each production, who would you kill off in the order of production? So basically, the first production is the first cat you would kill off, and the ninth production would be the last cat you would kill off. I

[22:28] Speaker 2: have ranked them in the episodes, so I can try to dig up what I actually have, how I've scored them, but I don't think if I, if I want to be a little bit more fair, if I just had to say, like, if I was doing this, was doing this today and giving it without the who's most deserving and who I like enjoyed most, here's how I would kind of go about this. So ranking them dying is a good thing in cats. So whoever I'm killing off first means that they're they're the best. So I think the most deserving, if you really do the if you do the research, the most deserving is Gus. So Gus, I would say, is probably the first to die. He's the one that's got the biggest fan backing on being the most worthy. He's one of the older ones. You know, it's done a ton in his life. Performance is really good. And then Ian McKinnon in the movie was, was great. So that would be my number one. So I'd say number one is Gus. Number two. This is just personal choice. Now I would say it's probably Two. And three are rum tuck Tucker and Mr. Misophyllies in some fashion, together. They, they they are, they're just, I would love for them to die together, like burn Ernie, like to me, they, there's a lot about them being a bisexual relationship. So I think those are two and three, four. I really, really enjoyed Mungo Jerry and rumble teaser. It's one of my favorite songs in the show, and it's one of those performances where the dance number is just crazy. So I rank them higher than they probably deserve to be ranked. But I would put them as number four, number five, I would probably say, should go to probably skimble Shanks, so he's got a pretty interesting story. The tap number is impressive. I like the fact that they build a whole train on stage during that production, during that song. So I'm a fan of that. Five would be I'm gonna put pretty close to the middle Old Deuteronomy. I don't think all Deuteronomy should be allowed to die as the judge. So I think it'd be a little unfair to give yourself, you know, the reward at the end as the judge. But he's also another older cat that's that's pretty, pretty great. Six, seven and eight. I'm going. Lumped together because I'm not a fan of really any of them for dying, but it's gonna be Jenny any dots, Buster for Jones and Macavity. So mccavity is probably at the end of that. But the Jenny any dots entire song weirds me out. It's about mice and cockroaches tap dancing. The movie version was even weirder. So I was not a fan of of that entire tire song and the whole just, the more I researched about it, just, it's a weird one for me. Buster for Jones is is a pimp, basically, that goes to strip clubs. So seems kind of hard to reward that. And he's not technically a Jellicle cat. I don't believe, or he was out of the tribe. And then McCabe is obviously the, you know, the the bad cat. He's the antagonist. So, so he should be eight. And then ninth, I would say, would be Grizabella. And then, like 90th, you know, we have to go way more down, which is, you know, that'd be that that much further down would be Peter. That's an

[26:02] Speaker 3: interesting it's an interesting rank, and I sort of like how you did it. So thank you for playing. I'd

[26:09] Speaker 2: probably rank them differently when I wrote the episodes because I gave it a lot more thought and theory. So this is just more about how I personally would rank them and enjoyed them.

[26:18] Speaker 3: Yes, well, that's what I would I would want your personal take, because my

[26:23] Speaker 2: I ranked the highest tug stuff, please, or tug of flies. It depends on you say there's, there's different writings online. But that's that, to me, was my number one. But if you really break it down, Gus is the most worthy.

[26:34] Speaker 3: Have Have you thought of reaching out to any like Die Hard cat fans to bring them on the show. So

[26:42] Speaker 2: I've talked to a couple. My the Instagram DMS I get are some of my favorite things, because they're all really funny. They're really great fans. Like, they people really enjoy the show, and so they enjoy cats, like, they have opinions on it, and they're they're really nice people. So I have talked to a couple, I think the thing I'm more interested in doing, but I don't know how to accomplish it, is I don't think children should see the show. I just, I just firmly believe it's really dark and really inappropriate when you when you break down the fact that, as I just said, bus for Jones is is going to see strip clubs like that's written in the song, right? So I would love to hear a kid's version of like you just saw it, what you know, you're 10. How do you feel about it? And I'd love to interview someone who just walked out of the theater seeing a track. You know, they're it's still traveling. It was supposed to be in Indiana right now, which, you know, around this week, but it's obviously on hold with the Coronavirus. But I would love to see a, you know, a teenager, or someone who is there because they're cats, not because of the story, and whose parents thought it was okay to bring them and hear what the kid thinks about it.

[27:56] Speaker 3: Well, maybe by putting that out there now, somebody will contact you about it. Yeah,

[28:02] Speaker 2: I'm trying to get, uh, podcast dad Alan to let his, let his kids go see it at some point. But I think they're, I think they're a little too young. I don't think any person under 18 should see it, but especially not that young.

[28:15] Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I guess I would say it's similar to, like, Tommy. I mean, I did. It was, like a year or two ago, I went to Connecticut to see a regional production because one of my friends was in it. And I trying to think if there were any kids there. I feel like there might have been one or two, but it is like a heavy subject matter to have to a kid. But then again, my parents took me when I was just around that 10 year old age. But at the same time, it does open the conversation. It does open up the door for discussions about certain things that maybe parents don't know how to talk to their kids about. So there could be the side of that's why we're going to see it,

[29:02] Speaker 2: I guess. But if you're trying to have the birds and the bees conversation, and you're going to use, you know, rum, tug, Tugger as your benchmark, like I got other questions for you as parenting, yes,

[29:12] Speaker 3: yes. Well, maybe hens also. That's the reason I'm not a parent. So

[29:19] Speaker 2: awesome. So how do we follow along to your podcast on social media? How can we find you? So on

[29:25] Speaker 3: social media, you can find me at, call me Adam NYC. And on the Broadway podcast network, you could find my podcast at, burying it all with, call me Adam

[29:37] Speaker 2: amazing, and I am on Instagram at the wrong cat died, and you can find me on the Broadway Podcast Network website under the wrong cat died.

[29:46] Speaker 3: Terrific, but this was so much fun. Yeah,

[29:50] Speaker 2: it was great to to chat. I'm I always love hearing the differing opinions of cats, so it's nice to hear someone who hated it and, you know, and never wants to see it again. End, but still loves theater. So I'm always enjoyed chatting with you.

[30:04] Speaker 3: Well, same, same here, and I love your take, because you don't come from the theater background. So it's nice to hear how you, first of all, have sort of embraced this show and broke it down from a different perspective, but also how you still love to go see shows and the stories behind as to why you want to see them. It's so much fun.

[30:27] Speaker 2: I'm excited to go see stuff when, when everything's back online.

[30:37] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this bonus episode with Adam Rothenberg from bearing it all with call me Adam. On the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat. Sasha V again, you can hear the full episode by visiting, call me adam.com to hear more of the wrong cat died. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else that you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check us out on our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.