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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:30] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of cats atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He recently finished up touring on the international tour of cats, and then also the Asia tour in South Korea performing as the ROM Tom Tugger. So welcome Ed Kingsley Wade and thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. I am excited to have you because you've been in a couple productions, and I know that you've just already told me that you have a different Jellicle choice. So this always is a great starting point. So let's start at the beginning. What is your cat's history? When's the first time you saw the show? When were you first introduced? When did you see it live first? Like, give me the give me the backstory.

[1:08] Speaker 2: So my first introduction to cat was when I was, I believe seven or eight. I was at school, and my drama teacher wheeled in the television and stuck in a DVD. Sorry, it was a VHS back then. VHS, yeah, showing my age. And she put it in, and she said, I want you guys to watch this. And at the end, I'm going to ask you, which cat do you think should go to heaven in a very simple form? And we watched the whole thing, and we watched and we got to the end, and we she said, right, who do you think should go to heaven? And I remember putting my hand up immediately, and no word of a lie. And I said, I think it should be the wrong time target. And I remember that so well, because I thought he was so cool. His number was so fun. He was kind of naughty. And I think is as a child, I sort of associated with that kind of fun loving, just crazy cat, and I thought he was so cool. And John Partridge was, ah, who's just legendary in the rock and that was my first memory of cats, and then very closely succeeded by my second memory of cats, which I think was probably either a year later, or two years later, I went to the Edinburgh Playhouse in Scotland. By the way, I'm Scottish. I'm half Scottish. My parents English. So my accent might sound confusing, so that's just clarify that I went to the Edinburgh Playhouse in Scotland, and I was sat in the audience, and I watched cats. And I remember watching the first act and then leaving at the interval because I thought it was so boring. And that is the truth. And I remember my godmother took me, and she must have thought I was just the spoil, ungrateful brat. But little did she know that, or did I know that I would end up doing that very musical and loving it, and absolutely it completely changed my mind after doing it. I think this was that saying, like watching cats is very different to being in cats. So, yeah,

[3:02] Mike Abrams: I think that's interesting because you saw it. So it's not like you were surprised by it the first time we saw it live, like you watched the movie, you got the gist of it, and you still are like, No, live. It's it's worse. I'm out. Yeah,

[3:13] Speaker 2: no. I was like, Nah, fuck this. No, I think I remember at the time one of the one, one of the vivid memories in my mind was the flashing eyes right at the beginning, and these eyes coming out of the audience, this thing where I was, I was very, sort of disturbed by it. And also, I was sitting in the office circle, and I remember the interval seeing kids going up onto the stage, because back then, you could go up and meet Old Deuteronomy. And I thought, Oh, I'd love. Why can't I do that? And I was like, you know, I turned to my godmother, and I can't remember what I said, but I think she got the impression I was like, this is this is not for me. This is boring. But little did she know? Little, little did we know that I would end up doing it as a professional, kind of crazy,

[3:51] Mike Abrams: like, if I have to watch it for school, I'll sit there. But if I get to go on my own time, when I can be doing everything else I'm done exactly,

[3:58] Speaker 2: you better be paying me to do it. That's what I was gearing towards. So

[4:02] Mike Abrams: when you watch the movie, did you like in school? Did you have every any like inkling that you might be in this, like it was a future for you? Or is it just like again? You're just happy that they wheeled in the VHS tape so you didn't have to learn

[4:14] Speaker 2: that was always a great day at school, wasn't it? When a teacher brings the best, the best to be told, No, I don't think I ever did back then, I was so wrapped up with just the life of being a kid. I just thought everything was so much fun. I was sort of fearless as a child. I I never really shied away from any task or throwing myself at anything. I loved art. I love expression. And then I remember at about the age of seven, so around about that time, my mum sent me to my first dance class, and I remember just really enjoying it, and just kind of being like, Oh, I just like that, because I think you were fearless as a kid back then. No one tells you otherwise, until. You get a little bit older, what is it the age of consciousness when you start realizing what the world starts to think of you and you think of yourself? And back then, I was just like, I just dance, and that's just what I like doing. And so when I watched the film, I was like, Oh, that looks kind of cool, but pass me a rugby ball or a football. And, yeah, you know, I'm off doing that as well, or playing tennis or whatever, you know I know, I guess in answer, along with an answer your question was, No, I never thought that I would want to pursue it back then

[5:29] Mike Abrams: it's so it's so interesting to hear you say that, because I've talked to so many cast members now at this point, especially around this like our age, same age, and there's a very distinct split between the I watched the white cat, and that was my future, you know, like I knew when I saw that moment that I wanted to be a dancer. I wanted to do this. And then there's the other half of this, where I was just like, yeah, that was interesting. And then you moved on with your life and ended up back here later at some point. So, yeah, it is kind of fascinating to hear how, like, the the 98 movie has such a lasting impression on a lot of people. And it was like, I just for you. It just cracks me up that it was like, No, it's just a day I didn't have to listen. I loved it at school, which is probably would have been my reaction. There's a lot of movies I watch as a kid in school where I'm like, I don't even know I loved it, just because I didn't have to pay attention anything else. Exactly

[6:19] Speaker 2: right? That was, that was, that was exactly it. And I think I don't know, like for me, I was very lucky in the sense that my mum was and my Dad, sorry, they were both very cultured, and that I went to the theater. I was lucky enough to go to the theater quite a lot, especially up in Scotland, where we don't have an awful lot, apart from the end of a fringe, which I'm sure you're familiar with. You know, when that comes along, lots of Scots just depend, descend upon Edinburgh, and we all go to see everything. So for me, like watching, I don't know, maybe I wouldn't want to speak on behalf of anyone else, but if cats was, this is totally random anomaly that appeared in your educational time, let's just say you just went, Oh, my god. That was that really, really took me, you know, I can understand why you want to be a white cat or a, you know, or whoever. But for me, it was like, Oh, this is just all part of the whole experience of being around art and theater and dance and stuff, you know. So maybe, yeah, maybe it was in there somewhere. It was just, I'd say it was more of a needing process than

[7:21] Mike Abrams: an explosive, yeah, interesting. So, so fascinating. So let's fast forward. You like when you got the audition, or you really realized that you're gonna have a chance to do this role. What was in between there? Was there any other moments with cats? Or was it like a you forgot about it from middle school, or from, you know, the early ages, and then all of a sudden, it's like, wait, I now have a chance to audition for Tugger. Yeah,

[7:45] Speaker 2: it's interesting, actually. I mean, my between, between those two points, actually, there was, there was a lot of evolution in my own journey. I went to, I got, I then shortly after, I got into Scottish ballet, and I started dancing with for the junior associates program for two years, and then I got into the Dance School of Scotland, and I went there for four years, in which I studied musical theater. And then I and then I got a scholarship to main view in London, and I studied there for three years. And the interesting thing about the progression is that I started very much in ballet focused and dance focused. And then I slowly weaved into more musical theater and started singing, and then acting more sort of came out as well. And so I guess, in a way, maybe I was kind of steering away from cats. I feel like you just before we got on, was that, like, it's more of a dancing show, you know, it's kind of that thing. So I think cats was very much in the forefront, especially when I was at the Dance School of Scotland, was in the forefront of the mind of people that were dancers, I would say, whereas musical theater people, they were like, oh, would it be hilarious if you were in cats one day? And we kind of joked about it at college and stuff as well, just because of what the way the colleges were kind of streamlined. You know, there was very much the dancer colleges, and then there was the acting colleges, and then there colleges, and then there was, like the singing, musical theater colleges, which was one I went to, the third one. So the idea of being in cats was was pretty, pretty out there was pretty, kind of an audacious thought, I'd call it, however, when I started getting into the industry and I realized that, okay, I can dance and sing and act, I can kind of do all three, I'll never be a featured dancer, and I'll, you know, but I can still move. I move around the stage. I then had an audition for cats, and I remember it. And I remember going to this, to this edition space and singing, and I remember doing the dance call and thinking, I remember my agent calling me, but like, you're in for cats. And I thought, like, I'm not gonna get this. I remember point blank thinking. I was like, I'm never gonna get cats. There's no way. I'm not a dancer like that was my interpretation of it. Am I understanding? And then I did the dance call and somehow made it through. But I was, you know, I was happy to and then I went through to the next round, and I sang in front of Chris. The grin robs, who cast it here in the UK. And, yeah, it kind of went, kind of went well, and then I got another recall, and then I didn't get it, because this was a time when I didn't get cats. So I auditioned for cats once, and it didn't go my way. But I remember getting far in the process and enjoying it and being sent up for Tugger and skimble and also monkey strap. Wow. So they weren't sure where to place me in the mix. And I think it all just came down to that, you know, just I was not really sticking out. I wasn't a standout for any particular role at that time. Cut to a few years two, three years later, in 2019, and I was in Fiddler on the roof in the west end at the time. And yeah, things were going good for me. And yeah, I remember going in again and dancing again and really loving it, really, really enjoying it a second time around the audition process and then singing. And that time I was seen only for Tugger, and it was great fun. And I remember Peter McCarthy, who was the MD on the European tour. He was there, and I've always enjoyed kind of, like doing my approach to roles is always to kind of do and true, but also, like, find my way of doing it as well. Like, I would love to do the character justice and take direction, but I also want to embellish it with a bit of me. And when it came to the singing and all the riffing and stuff, I just decided to take it off in a in a way that I realized now hadn't kind of been done before. So Peter really latched on to that. Was like, Oh, this is interesting. Let's try it like this. Let's, you know, let's see where you can go. And then, and then, yeah, and then I remember a couple of weeks later after that, just as Fiddler came to an end, I got the call to say, Yeah, I booked it. And I was booked on the Asia tour that was going around China in April of 2020, which could have, you know, couldn't have been quite a worse, worse situation, because then the pandemic happened.

[11:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's, you know, it's interesting, because that's such a, it's a role that gives you, you just talked about, the freedom to be able to kind of have a little bit of your own vision into and it's like a perfect role for that. I also curious now hearing like, what a hard pivot going from Fiddler to Tugger. Quite a, quite a shift.

[12:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a real, like the real shift. That's a great way to describe actually, I always enjoy the challenges. I think, you know, swing me, swing me around, or, like, flip me upside down, like I would. I'll try and thrive in whatever situation. Throw me in cold water. I'll try and swim. You know, it's I don't, I don't shy away from the challenge of it, but the fiddler, the fiddler was Fiddler was so great, honestly, it was such an amazing job. And I worked with Trevor Nunn on that one, and Judy Kuhn and Andy Nyman, and just these amazing, amazing like stars as well. It was just, it was just an incredible, incredible experience of one which I gained a lot of insight from, and especially working with someone like Trevor, who obviously, you know, it's so huge back it back at those in those school days when they wheeled in the VHS, I remember opening a textbook, right, and looking at a picture of Trevor Nunn, and looking at him in that and going, all right, that's Trevor Nunn. And then meeting him on the edition for for trader, and looking at him and going, I remember you from my experts at school.

[13:24] Mike Abrams: I'm sure he loves that. That's okay. So you, so you, basically, you're, you're auditioned and picked for the 2020, that's not going to end up happening. Obviously, there's, you know, there was a US tour that got cut off. That one happened. I think they ended up going to Korea. Like it was a different group, because it was, it was, like one of the first things, there's a documentary on it. Okay, so then you now get cast again in the international tour. You go all around Europe. It sounds like for about a year. I'm curious, because I've heard a little bit about that tour, and you stopped in some, like, amazing cities, but then when you finished, you went to South Korea to cover. So what was, is that the exact same production that you went into, or were there changes? Like, what is that going like when you, because you, like, had very, pretty much no break, and you went from one to another, and I've heard this a couple times, but when you get thrown in as an injury replacement or replacement, how much change do you have to adjust to?

[14:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just to, just to address that story, because you're, you're almost completely right with it. Okay? The European tour, I had a, I had a clause in my contract to to leave after six months. So I was able to, so I left in August. I think it was, yeah, I loved August. And then the tour continued without me. They bought and a great guy called Harrison wild, who, who, from what I hear, did an amazing, amazing job. So big shout out to him. But yeah, no, so I was able to do the European. Tour visit places like Berlin, which was, oh my god, Berlin was so cool. We went to Zurich in Switzerland as well, which was amazing. Feel so lucky to have just even been there, but to have worked there and to be in a production and to enjoy it Munich other places like that, it was, it was wonderful. And then I finished the tour there, and left that cast whilst they had like, a five week break in, which they put Harrison in, and then they went off and they continued the rest of the tour. And then I was, I've been back here in London, and then the the that production finished on the Saturday or the Sunday, and I was called on the Friday, just before that finished, to fly out on the Monday. And what was so weird is I sent a video to the group, saying, guys like, have a great final show. The next thing I knew I was going back to So, so strange. But the difference between the two productions was it wasn't luckily for me, because I was, I was put in in two days when I flew out to Korea. That, lucky for me, is very, very similar. However, the set is slightly different in that it's bigger. It has more levels on the size of stage. The growl Tiger number is in and so is an extended version of the Rumpus Cat. And that comes in in Act One, whereas in the production in the international tour, the Rumpus Cat number was Gus is one two, whereas is the growl Tiger there. So that was that was interesting. And I tell you what, it was so weird. It was so bizarre going having, like, six months off, and then going in to do cats again. I remember in act two, Tiger comes on, and he sits on the pipe, looking down over the back to the heads of these people. And it was feeling so much like a dream. You know when you dream and you're in that world, and it looks so familiar, but it's different slightly. Yeah, it was exactly like that. That's the only way I can describe it. Was I was looking at the back to people's heads being like, No, that is Demeter. It's not the Demeter, I know, but I know that's her. And over there's monk. He looks different, but I can, I know that's monk. And it was so strange. But it was a very like crazy experience, but one that I was very much awake for, which was kind of terrifying as well.

[17:16] Mike Abrams: That's, that's kind of an interesting piece I hadn't thought as much about because I, you know, the the tour, I was with the US tour recently, earlier in the year, and, you know, they, they swing in a lot. And so, you know, you're seeing, and I'm seeing a lot of the pictures of them, and I'm like, it's a different person, but with all the makeup and the costume and everything, it's like, it looks like the character. And so it has to be kind of almost, you know, two days you said, it got put in. Has to be a little trippy to see, you know, someone that you probably worked for six months with, yeah, and then a tweak of them, who's a totally different human that is now in that costume, like it's, it's got to be a little bizarre. It was,

[17:59] Speaker 2: it was, it was exactly that. It was, it was very, very strange. But in that as well, like, you know, there was, it was weird trying to fit my European version of the Tugger into the the Asian production as well, because there were, there were definitely, like energy changes. It was an entirely different set of people. There was not one person that I knew from either production, and so it was just, it was really, really interesting for me to, like, work with that, like discover bits with misto or interactions with bone ball arena, things like that, which I find really interesting. But one thing, one thing that I that I that I truly clung to, that really meant the world to me, is that, is that we that I changed something in a European production that made it in to the Asian production, in the Korea production. And I am, I'm, I'm infinitely proud of this, and I am, and this, this goes, this doesn't, this isn't a shy to me. This is a show to someone else, because it was they're doing in the production of the international tour of cats. The in the show, Mr. Does his great solo, and Tugger says, Ladies and gentlemen, I give to you the magical, marvelous Mr. Mustafa police. Can we do that? In the European production of Cats, there was a young actor called shaquill. And shaquill came up to me one day and said, Oh, Ed, Wouldn't it be funny if one day you said, ladies and gentlemen, and those of you left to decide, I give you the magical wisdom as to please. And what was interesting about this is shaquill is non binary, and I thought that was really interesting. And they came, shaquill played Corona, and Milan played tantamount. Sorry. And they both came up to me. They said, Oh, wouldn't this be interesting? I was like, oh, okay, that's cool. Let me try it. So in the rehearsal room with Chrissy, I said, ladies and gentlemen, and those of you left the society, I give you blah, blah, blah. And I kept doing it and kept doing and kept doing. And then we got into tech in mid Zurich, and Chrissy was like, came up. To me in the middle of tech and said, You know, I think we should change that. And I was thinking, oh, what? Just take it out and revert back to the original. I was like, oh, yeah, sure. No, no worries. Of course, absolutely. She said, No, no, I think we should. I think we should change the line. I was like, try this. And we tried a few things. We tried things like, ladies and gentlemen and those of you in between, or everyone else, or it was, it was something to include everyone. And she went, Okay, it's not really working one second. So she went off, and she phoned Trevor, and Trevor said, Try feline and friends. And now. So then I went on and we tried it. And she said, yeah, that works. And I went over to the Asia production, and that line is now in it is now in the show. So rather than saying, ladies and gentlemen, tug and I, says felines and friends, which, which is amazing. And that came from like Chrissy and Trevor, and from the wonderful Shaquille as well. So that was a I'm really proud to be like, to have to have helped in some way, or change the narrative in some way. I think it's really cool. So, yeah,

[21:04] Mike Abrams: really cool. I mean, again, more inclusive, and just a tweak. I think what I love about cats is, is that the core of the story doesn't have to change. You can make these minor little things, and the world was built and is there, and you can do these small things, and it's, still in the like the work, it's still in the world, and it allows you to kind of evolve it without it changing. And that's what's about it, because it's been 40 years, and there can be those small tweaks and some things that have been removed or changed and added, doesn't get away from the core of what the show does or is about exactly, exactly.

[21:39] Speaker 2: And I think, I think that comes down to Chris's vision as well, especially because I wasn't able to work directly with Trevor or or Julie on this one, obviously, but to still have Chrissy, who's so embedded in the piece, and comes from the true history of it and really understands the piece as well, for her to be so welcoming of that change was just remarkable. She's one of the best directors I've ever worked with. Hands down, she just really cares. It's just so and it makes you care. It's really, I think that's really inspiring. And the one thing I've learned about directors is that if you feel or see their vision, then you get on board with it straight away. So yeah, she's amazing.

[22:17] Mike Abrams: One asks one, one or two more quick questions about the Korea tour before we go to talk about Tugger. One thing I'm always interested to hear is, when you're joining in, you got two days there's, you know, it's all new people, and it is such a show that you get very close and comfortable with everybody. So what is that like? In the sense of you have to be like, you go and immediately are brought into this, like, family, and you've gotta, like, did you know, like, how do you transition from, I just did this with this cast for six months that we became close, and we had kind of your you play off each other moments, to now two days later, gonna go in and have to figure out those new moments with different cast members. Like, what is that adjustment period like? And how do you quickly do that to, you know, especially with your character and, like, this is my second part of this question. Is Tucker comes in to disrupt so it's almost a very interesting one to come in and just kind of come in and also kind of cause some chaos as the new guy. Like, is that? How does that work? Like? It's such a unique part to the show,

[23:21] Speaker 2: that's you, that's a really good question, actually, and one that was obviously very interesting, like, really literal for me, but you, it's really funny, because you put me in mind of the moment after the white cat lift, and I remember it was like, my first show, I think, yeah, it was my first show, and I was a bit nervous, and still didn't know everybody's names and things. And I just remember, like us all moving in towards this, you know, the kind of like the love pit, whatever, crawling all over each other. I remember the girl playing Demeter, and ika she, she sort of like clawed me, and I kind of called her, and we were lying down and very quietly, just as we were, like, drifting past, like, what's your name, she's like, Annika. I was like, Hi, I'm Ed. And we were just like, clawing and pulling each other. So I find that really, really funny. But for the main part, yeah, it was exactly that. It was, it was that disruptive thing to move on to the sort of second part of your question, yeah, it was exactly that I obviously coming from the European tour, and having my own little Ed isms, as I would call them, and introducing them to this, this cast, and having, I like to use ad libs, and I liked little, little moments and little beats of really breaking down The fourth wall and really getting with the audience and things, you know, that was that was great to kind of like come in, and I remember Matt cozans, who is the resident director on the Korean tour, you know, sitting there when I did most office for the first time, and just kind of like, he's just giving me this look like, what the fuck. But also like, just when. Enjoying it as well, because that's exactly who I feel Tugger should be. Like you said, is a disrupter. And it was very much that energy for me and very much for the cast as well. And I think it was great to kind of to shake it up a bit, and to stir the pot a little and make people realize that, you know, we are here to do the peace justice that's fully fledged, like what we're here to do. We're here to uphold one of the staples of our industry, and we have to do that justice, but also that there is much more to be explored, and bravery is commended and ideas are commended as well. I'm not going to say that all my ideas were great, like some of them were trash, and I'm very happy to, like, go there and fail and get a note. One of my favorite things to do is to get a note, you know, because that means that as long as it's like, within keeping, you know, I haven't, it's not like, Can you, can you stop sitting on people like, you just stop, like, being too crazy, that's, that's fine, you know, I won't go there. But if it's, for example, if it's a gesture or a moment or a beat, or a, you know, a pause, or something that I've gone, I want to try that that way. And a director comes to me and says, Ed, maybe try a different way, or don't do that. I welcome it fully. Because, again, like I said about Chrissy, having the vision, if I can see your vision, it helps me come across. So it was great to be this chaotic force that swept through, in a way, but also to be respectful, and, you know, aware and present for what was already in place as well. And I felt the balance was struck well, so I was very happy. Yeah,

[26:33] Mike Abrams: so let's, let's talk about your chaotic force. Let's talk about Tugger. I want to hear your I always love to hear what, like, what's the note you're given for Tugger? Like, what are they? What are you told as the backstory for Tugger? And then what do you add?

[26:51] Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the backstory for Tugger from what I gathered, oh, by the way, this is one of the things I love about cats, by the way, is, is that the stories that you don't see or hear or really get to know unless you do until you do cats, and because of these backstories that we'll just delve into in a moment, these like relationships and stuff, is the reason that I wrote cats too, which is an entire musical that I've written, is 80 pages. I've got two acts, I've got 12 new songs, and we'll go into that in a bit, but one of the things we were given was the information about these cats. So I was given Tugger is monk straps brother. He's the son of all Deuteronomy, and his three words were grooming. Oh gosh, I'm really gonna get in trouble for this. Maybe we'll maybe we'll skip this. No, it was he's grooming independent and perverse. I remember hearing those three and thinking, Okay, what does perverse mean? Like, let me just make sure I knew what that meant. But so they Yeah, given that we were given these words on day one, and when we went into the rehearsal room, and one of the days, we did the exercise where we all become cats. So one cat will get in the middle, Chrissy will say, then, you know, we're beckoning another cat, and then another cat will be back in and we were all sort of exploring felinity, and, you know, just crawling and becoming cat like and everything like that. And my immediate instinct was to crawl over to Chrissy and just sit over her and wait for her to, like, do something or just be there. And then our resident director, Dane, I went over and just kind of stood by him. Everyone was still, like, contained in the circle, but I made sure that I made an independent choice to break away from that and do something perverse. And the whole time I'm just, you know, stroking my collar, or, you know, grooming this, and taking no care of, you know, not really being there with anyone, but then finding a moment, I remember just thinking, like, I just want to burst through the middle of this, as I've seen cats do before, like one cat will just charge through the middle of them, and they'll just kind of upset the norm. I remember charging through the middle and not really caring or being, you know, respectful of anyone other than Old Deuteronomy. I feel like the hierarchy of predators is really interesting, and I think knowing who's the alpha, which is very much, Oh, dude, you know I was, he was the only one I gave, you know, reverence to, but the rest of them, like I couldn't give a shit today, even though I do fully, I just in the in the in the part and in the exercise. It's very much about like this, exploring that independence, whilst being a little bit indifferent and self obsessed. It was, yeah, it was kind of, kind of dream role, you know, yeah, but, but it was also, yeah. It was very, it's a very good safe space to explore that, that exercise, that was what I was given, yeah, yeah.

[29:55] Mike Abrams: What relationships Did you add then, like, where did you like? Did you. Like, gravitate towards certain the most obvious angle, or the bomb Valley Arena angle, or a lot of different versions that we've heard, or did you just kind of change it up every day depending on what you're feeling?

[30:13] Speaker 2: I very much stayed away from kittens and warmed greatly to Bombay arena. I really allowed a moment of indulgence with her. I think, I think in a very sort of loving way, both with losing Alan to the European tour and Petra on the Korean tour, both were very, very like fine with the relationship and the flirting as it were, which was, which was great, which really, I think worked. And also my relationship with monkey strap as well was very much one of a younger brother energy. I have a younger brother. So I, so I shaped it a lot on him and his kind of prodding and probing, but love and like laughter constantly. If you have, do you have siblings? I have an older sister. You have an older sister. So you know that thing where you know each other so well that you know where every single button is, even if you like flick your hair, it will piss them off, like it will just annoy them, or you do one thing. And I really enjoyed playing with that relationship with with both monkey straps that I got to do with, and I found it to be and I love that there's a moment in the bows just just as Grizabella split enough, we go viva, and we sing the final note, cat bum, and then we go into, sort of like, charging around the stage, and the cats got into the audience and stuff. And I always, always liked this moment where me and monkey strap, like, just get back together, and we just have a hug, and we kind of hug it out. We're like, Yeah, we're like, yeah, we're brothers at the end of the day. Yeah, there's always love. And in spite of us like bickering or like joking over each other. So I like the Manchester relationship, the kittens I gave no time to. I kind of thought, I know it elevated my status. I felt as Tugger and, yeah, I think, I think that was about it, me and misto, we have, like, a, I imagine just having like, secret, like parties, just he and I would just go out on nights. We just go around, like, Come on, do do the trick. Because, you know, girls love that type thing. He's my, he's my, like, magic cat. So, yeah,

[32:18] Mike Abrams: nice. We're gonna take a quick break for some messages from our sponsors, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. Okay, you got to tell, but you got to talk about cats too. Yeah. So let's hear, let's hear your version. I have, also, I wouldn't say I wrote one. I have a an outline of what I had, and I don't, I don't, I can't write music or any of this stuff, so I have, like the script of how I think it would be funny to do it, but it's very, I would say, Me heavy. So it's not very theater. It's like a lot of non theater type of parts to it. I love it, but I did, I did write a version of this, but I want to hear yours first, and I

[32:58] Speaker 2: can tell you, Yes, sure. Well, mine, mine's quite plot heavy. And, yeah, I kind of it was. It was funny. I got, I came, I came to writing it through just spitballing ideas with a cast and just joking around about, like, ideas like, oh, imagine if there was a cats too. Like, what would happen? And I, at one point, I had this really dark story where, like, all the cat, like, the cats kept losing their tails, like someone was cutting off their tails, and then at the end, it was Victoria, the white cat, coming on, and she's, like, kind of half dressed, she blood. And like, I was, I was a funny thought, but for a split second, I was like, that's not too dark, yeah. Little too dark. Little too dark for such a light show. So, yeah. So cat, the version of cats too, that I wrote starts the very moment that Grizabella flies away. And, oh, Deuteronomy, well, it starts like, you know, you hit it, Russell hotel, and Grizabella flies away. The cats, you know, come down, and they all start talking to each other, oh, Deuteronomy, and you address and this is the thing is like in this moment, and in these moments we you realize the relationships that the cats actually have to each other. So monkey strap calls, or Deuteronomy his father, and he says, My son, you will inherit the tribe one day. It was becoming your duty. And then we learn about tuggers relationship to monkey strap. And he's like, Come on, brother, let's go and get a that's gonna get, get a, what I say, a bowl of milk at the ball in the arm, and bomb and I say, and Demeter is coming too. So you know the love between Demeter and and monk. And then there's bomb ballerina, and she sort of chases her Tugger chases her around. And then we also, we see cats like skimble being sent off on a mission by, uh, by old dude. We also learned that Gus, now this is the wrong cat that died, because gosh should have been chosen. Gosh should have been chosen. He's the oldest cat. He he's he's been there his entire life. He's. Always kept Solomon quiet. He's so sweet and timid and old. He's with Jenny, who, like, looks after him a full time, pretty much, because he's so old, but he's loyal. He came to the book Grizabella just sorted in. She was the glamor cat bro, like, she just she lived this great life. She was off partying like she was shit hot, like she had this wild, wild time. And then as soon as the love run out, she just came back in. It was like, Hey guys, I kind of kind of fucked it. You know, can I? Can I any chance I could skip the queue? What? He's serious, like, Gus has been here this whole time. He's been like a father, an ambassador. He like, he might be mean to kids, but he's still in the loving father figure, and he's an old man. Anyway, I'm very passionate about it. He basically, do, basically get together and they say, like, do you is? Like, listen, old friend, you know, it should have been used tonight. He's like, no more of it. No more of it. Don't worry. Next year, next year, next year, next year. He goes and sits in the back of the set meanwhile, like the manga during Robert teaser, come on. And he they've, like, stolen a bag of swag. And he's like, stop it. And they go, I knew the tap shoes were too much, because they pull out a pair of tap shoes and stuff. And anyway, there's Gumby comes forwards, and she says, I'm fearful of Macavity. I think you should prepare the cats for next time the cavity attacks. And he says, I give you my blessing. Let's prepare the cats for next time. Then also in this time, Mustafa Lees has been sat at the back of the set this entire time. And in this production, I like the idea that Mustafa Lees is a is an angel character that he can't speak, and he's sitting there looking at the moon and the heavy side layer, and with an empty stage, says, you can see her up there. Can't be my son. It says up there in the heavy side layer, the place where you have ascended from, the only place you cannot return to. Meaning that he the source of his magical powers, is that is the reason that he is the only cat that can't return to the heavy side layer. And also that he is a Peter Pan character, and that he never ages so old. You also then talks about remembering, most awfully as a when he was gonna love that. You know that he's this, this character that never ages, but he's always in amongst the tribe, and he has this, this magical parrot, and all Jude, thanks. I mean, he pulls out a windmill, like a paper windmill type thing, and most awfully, like disappears from behind the set and then appears right beside him and and then he has a ballet. He goes into the windmill ballet, and then, and then all Duke stands and sings a song about being a cat and the importance of family and returning home. And as he goes up to the back of the set to wake up, Gus, Gus just gently lulls his head and Gus has passed. And then the music builds and builds and builds and builds. And then across the cloth, the merges cats to a Jellicle tail seven years later, and we hear this snowy, snowy windscape coming in, and skimble Shanks comes on, and it basically builds from there. So we're looking at the tribe from seven years later. Skimble Shanks is up in Scotland, hunting wild looking for wild cats to help. We go back to the Jellicle Tribe, and there is a new there's a new monkey strap. Her name is wapiti, and she steps forwards, and she's the new monkey strap character, old dude has passed. So now monkey strap is the leader of Jellicle Tribe, and there is a protect and then we meet our protagonist, whose name is arty. And arty is the grandchild of Gus. And so there is this energy of, like, we don't know about Arti because they're a bit different, and blah, blah, blah. And then Artie sings a song about not being included. And seven, yeah. And then all of a sudden there's Macavity laugh appears, and the cavity appears in the tribe and says, points out arty and says, You shall fulfill the prophecy that was foretold. And what is the prophecy? What is the prophecy? And then, when Macavity disappears, Demeter explains that there was a cat prophesized that will, oh, a Jellicle will overthrow the Jellicle leader, so Arty, is then banished. Meanwhile, in Scotland, cymbal shank is being taken, captured by the Jellicle by the wild cats. And we learn of the resting place of the everlasting cat. The Everlasting cat is the last line of Scotland, and in this cave at which Old Deuteronomy led these wild cats to safety when they were being hunted by the humans, all Deuteronomy leads the cats, the wild cats there, and so the cats, the Wildcats, say, right, we will help you, because Old Deuteronomy helped us. And skimball comes back to get jumps on a train to come back to London. Meanwhile, Artie goes out into the wild meets, meets a cat called Felix, who lives in a bin, and then discover and then they say, like, oh, we should team up. Let's go find a cat that was there seven years ago. So they go to this place called fat toms, and fat Tom emerges from the from this, like, pizza box, and it's the Rum Tum Tugger has. The years have not been kind to him. He's covered in like, decades of hairspray and like, he's fat and greasy, and he's just completely lost all his like, Mojo and sex appeal, but he still very much thinks he's like Jagger, but he thinks he's Mick Jagger, but he's. More Jack Black. And so yeah, and then basically teams up with Tugger. And then he says, right, meet someone that's been to the cavity for layer in order to talk to Macavity. Let's go find Munger, Gerry, Rumble teaser, who have now gone bat shit crazy, because they're just so in sync. And they basically all team up. And then it all comes to a head, and you meet. You go to the cavity, layer and stuff in act two. And the cavity is actually a sphinx cap. He's, like, got this great coat. He reveals takes off. Because, I believe, in one of the early productions, the cavity used to wear this big red coat. So he takes off underneath. He's this bold sphinx cat with, like, this little podgy belly and things. And anyway, it all comes to a climax in act two with but there's a beautiful, huge, big balletic ballet. And in amongst, there's lots of other different turns and weaves and bobs, and it just kind of kind of takes, what's what's the ending,

[40:54] Speaker 2: the ending, the ending. So the ending is that there's this huge, almighty battle between the cavity, the cavity Arty, who, you know, has been kicked out, saves the day at the last minute, when Macavity has Tugger and monkey strap by the throat, and, oh yeah, he's about to fleece, I think, yeah, it's a bit dark. But basically, he has, he has missed office, I believe, yeah. And he says, and I'm going to take himself these powers. Now he's going to take himself his powers, and Artie jumps on mechanicality his back, rips off the coat, and there's a bald cat underneath, and he's wearing a collar. And all the cats stop and freeze and look at the collar, and they go, that's a Jellicle collar. That's how you tell a Jellicle cat apart. Is because of their collar. You see this color on the cavity, and go there. He's actually the brother of Tugger and monkey strap, the long lost brother that was banished, this sort of Hades character that was kicked out of the Poseidon and Zeus partnership. You know that, that third brother and and, yeah, and so anyway, jelly, jelly comes along, and she proffers her pull into the cavities. And the cavity of sense, the heavy side layer to be reborn when it should have been jelly, when it should have been jelly, it was jelly stone to be, you know, sent away. But, um, but yeah. So the cavity disappears, and then the whole way through, yeah. And then I see and then the whole way through is jelly. Still sees Gus, like very much with her the entire time. And there's this thing. There's this story that if you are a cat, and you a Jellicle cat who doesn't go to the heavy side layer, you remain a guardian to a cat in need. And remember the cat, Felix that we met earlier that yeah, Artie. So the whole time Artie is actually being a Gus cat to Felix has been a gust cat to arty. So arty has had this companion who has been there the whole time, but if you read the script carefully or closely, never actually talks or interacts with any other cat other than feel other than arty. So Felix turns around. You know, it's this sort of sad little reveal at the end, that Felix was a figment of art his imagination the entire time. And yeah, there's a whole musical. You can write it yourself. Yeah, you got, you got the whole story there. Let

[43:06] Mike Abrams: me tell you, I think the part, there's a couple things that I It gives a climax and ending and conflict that I think sometimes is almost missed a little bit in catch one. And so I love that you have a story. Have you thought about here's the one thing that kind of jumped to my head, because I love it. I hope you have no idea what it goes into producing a musical. Have you thought about seven years later, there were six other than Jellicle choices. Have you made those six Jellicle choices?

[43:39] Speaker 2: No, yes. Very interesting. Good point. One of them definitely being old dude. I mean, I want to keep jelly because I want to keep the GUS connection, and she's sort of the next oldest cat that I can think of. No, I kept Buster for Jones and Cassandra out of it, because I believe that they should appear in the cavities layer, because they are posh aristocracy, and the cavity has these posh and powerful friends, so I wanted to keep them in that world. That's a really interesting one. No, I haven't thought on that, but I like the idea that cats do come back in in their times of need. So for example, the Kickstarter act two, there is a there's a French cat, a French Jellicle. And I wrote this aria, this French ARIA called Le chatel Alan, which means the cat the night, sings to the moon, and so she sings half in French and then half in English. So this idea that, like other cats of like Jellicle history, like weave their way back in, but I, but it's an interesting No, I haven't actually thought too much on who the other jellicles that were chosen to be reborn were and are. I

[44:51] Mike Abrams: love that you also wrote music for it like you're you wrote a full music I have a I have an outline. And I did write some likes. To my so mine is parody. Like I went full parody, you went full next cats to musical. I went full parody, which is the only thing I probably capable of writing in the US version. There is a Peter, which is Gus character that just dances in the ensemble. And I've always joked that I think Peter is St Peter. And so my cats, too is, is what I joked, jokingly called the goats of ghost of cats must pass. And I want Peter to bring Isabella to be like a Christmas story, and let her come up before She ascends to the MSN layer and see what that decision does to all the cats. So she goes around with Peter, and the two of them go and then what I got to do is I wrote each cat as almost a flip or a dark turn of where by her leaving, what does that do to their psyche or their character? And so it's like, if it is their mom, what does that do, or if it was former lover, was that do? And I put them in different scenarios. Challenge I ran into is I did this very early in me doing this podcast. And so it's very clear I know nothing about musical theater. I know more now, but, like, when I started, I knew nothing. So it's like, I think I ended up putting one of them on the Knicks, like, on a basketball team, and like, like, I had a very it was, it was not something that was gonna resonate with the cat's audience, but it was, I love the thought exercise of, if she goes to the heavens head lair, who do you like? What happens to that cat the next year? And then my ending was, is that she decides she wants to spend a year with her family, and then Gus goes, which is how I'd like to end the story. Anyways, I

[46:37] Speaker 2: would love, I love that ending immediately. So that was my like,

[46:41] Mike Abrams: she comes back and has her aha moment of like, oh, I can't leave them. I've got to spend a year with them. And that's how you come back. But you basically do a, I mean, it's a Christmas it's like, it's a it's not a new it's not a new story, but it's the great, like, for me, a format for the parody of what happened to each cat, because then you can go into whatever character you want. And so this is the turn they took. Her leaving. I

[47:05] Speaker 2: love that. I love that I sort of, it's kind of company meets the Christmas story, yeah, her own rebirth in of itself, but also a retelling of, or a fleshing out of the other characters we already know that's super interesting. Actually. It's like, puts me in mind of Encanto as well. Did you see that movie? Yeah, where we see these characters and then, but realizing the relationship and the change that then happens to all of them around this one central character, that's really good, man. I like be fun.

[47:37] Mike Abrams: I can't write music or anything else. And I would definitely, but it's, it's the version I would, I would want to do. Yeah,

[47:45] Speaker 2: that's so cool. I really, really hope you get to make that and make

[47:50] Mike Abrams: yours. Your sounds awesome, like I was in trance, as you were telling me,

[47:55] Speaker 2: Oh, thanks. I mean, I hope so too. I've spoken to quite a few people about doing it, and I just like getting hold of Andrew Lloyd Webber and also TS Eliot group and those types of people, because I couldn't possibly proceed without the blessing, because of how much heavy toes I would be staffing on. I really desperately want to make it. And we actually had a reading with the international tour. I spent six weeks writing it, and I just went into, like, a kind of crazy writer zone, you know, and just hammered it. I remember, like, even after the Tugger number, I have like, a about a 1015, minute break, and I would sit on my laptop there, you know, I'd come off stage sweating, and I quickly jump on the laptop and just keep writing. And I was writing songs and stuff, but when we did the reading, has some wonderful feedback, made a few changes, some great new ideas came through as well. Then this sort of like, I spoke to my agent about it as well, and I said, What do you think? And he went, You're joking, right? You didn't write a musical. I said, yeah, no, I did. And he said, Well, you couldn't possibly get it off the ground because the rights and things like that. But I would love, love, love, if, if, if, on the off chance, I could meet Andrew regrow one day and just be like, What do you think? Here's a thing. Let me show you it, and we can maybe work on some ideas together. I would just, I would, oh, God, I would thrive with that opportunity. I would love, yeah,

[49:16] Mike Abrams: it's fun. What a fun way to do it too. Like, I'm sure you got great notes from your cast, because, like, you are literally living this every day. It's like you could not be more in the like mindset of cats to be able to give a thought on, like, hard way and all these other characters. Yeah, well, again,

[49:33] Speaker 2: I mean, like, this one thing I said, like, right at the beginning is that there's, there's two different versions of cats, like watching cats and being in cats. Like, for me again, you know, like, Let's go full circle with this. When I was a kid watching cats, you know, in the theater, I was like, I don't get this peace out. And then again, when I was like, doing it, you know, and I got, I got the job, and Chrissy gave me the words, and we did the workshop, I was like, and then I learned about the relationship. Was like, Holy shit, there's a universe in here. Inside this entire musical. Like, wouldn't that enhance people's like perception of it? Like, I have friends, my girlfriend, for example, who's done has done cats as well, and they, we all love it because we know it and we respect the piece, and we, you know, so many people have done it that you can start to compare other people's versions of it, and you could admire and know other people's things, and it's just really, really interesting. There's this whole world that people love and obsess over. And there's a reason that the musical has such a fan base as well, because it has these deeper dynamics and stories in it. I would just love to be able to give that some light and, you know, just flash it out. I mean, the story I've written, for example, like doesn't have to be writ, doesn't have to be wrote like, you could encompass stories like yours into it as well. We could, you know, collab on it and just hear what other people would want to see and then write about that. I don't think it's, I mean, you know, you shouldn't really touch something that isn't broken because it is so powerful in itself. I'm not saying that it needs to be touched cats. One, but if there was an extension, an extension pack, and be like just, you know, here's a little bit, here's something else you could like, maybe to enhance your watching of cats. One, you

[51:12] Mike Abrams: would thrive on cats Tumblr, if you're it might be, it might be a new obsession for you, but there's a group of fans that essentially write as if they're the cat, and they have their own unique cats. And I have stayed away from it because I don't want to get personally sucked in, because I think I become obsessive on it. But there is a group that I don't know how active it is still today, but they would write stories and situations of like real life as the cats. So it is, sounds like you have, you have some new characters that you can bring in. I'll send you some more when we, when we finish and hang up, please,

[51:53] Speaker 2: please. I'll email you when I'm in too deep, exactly.

[51:59] Mike Abrams: Let's, let's do some rapid fire here to close us out. If you could go on for one day, any character, any cat, whether you could physically do it, male, female, just one track, one day. Who would you want to go on as Mungo, Jerry, Mongo, Jerry.

[52:17] Speaker 2: I just want to. I want to know what it is like to be that exhausted, singing and dancing, that full out in that intense way, to then, you know, do that Crazy Cart, really iconic thing at the end, and just just real. Like, think how it feels to have just finished that. Like, I think it's an incredible and also like to have the energy and try and match the energy of, you know, the rumble teaser. And I think that's, I think it's just a crazy ass number that, you know, while everyone else is just off stage, like catching a breath or like taking a drink of water, they are there giving it like the whole thing. And it's, I think probably mugger Jerry. I think it's athleticism and just

[52:56] Mike Abrams: all great things. What are? Who are your favorite and least favorite cats?

[53:00] Speaker 2: Favorite cats and least favorite cats. Oh God,

[53:09] Speaker 2: Favorite, favorite cats. I think Bill Bailey's a right laugh. I think he's just, he's just there for a giggle. He's just running around teasing people. Least favorite is probably Cassandra, because she's so, kind of, in my opinion, like she's so up herself, in a way, like, kind of like high and entitled. Favorite cat, I think all due, I think he's such a lovable, likable, admirable character. And least favorite, Grizabella did me in there, yeah, what's your

[53:48] Mike Abrams: okay, something don't like rose. Love her song though.

[53:51] Speaker 2: Love her song though. I think that's, that's why I love it. That's why I love it so much, because it pulls me right. You know, I go, you sang so well, and I get it. I get it by the end. But I feel, I feel like that whole songs, you know, it's the one of the more iconic songs of the show. And also it kind of brainwashes all the cats to go, she should go. She should really do one chosen.

[54:14] Mike Abrams: My fun question is, since you got to do a little bit of a European tour, I asked this to your cast mate, Alan, which kept you think would win Eurovision.

[54:26] Mike Abrams: yeah. What did Ella say? Can you remember? I don't remember. I wish I there was a couple choices. Like, there's, I think there's a lot of ways to answer this. I don't remember exactly what she said, But, but yeah, there's, I think there's some, I think there's some

[54:42] Speaker 2: choices. Hilarious, hilarious question. I think Tugger number would would definitely be up there. I think the runtime Tugger number missed those kind of iconic I think, yeah, I think that would, that would, that would sound a good chance, but I. Do hands down. It's got to be memory. It's just, it's just so iconic. It's the rise like a phoenix. It's just all those great, you know, numbers super valid. Yeah, one

[55:09] Mike Abrams: more odd. One more for you. I think skin skims, gets a shot. Was in there, yeah, yeah. With the builds a train on stage, like, I think there's some fun to that. Yeah, there's

[55:18] Speaker 2: some production value in that as well. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

[55:23] Mike Abrams: I normally ask this is the point I'd ask you. But you already went on a rant on why you're picking Gus over Isabella, so I'm just glad that you're team Gus. Yeah, yeah. Sorry,

[55:39] Speaker 2: I just he's, been there. He's, he's there, he's, he's the whole way. He's in the he's there for the whole of the Jellicle bull. He has lived an honest life. He's super humble. He I feel as though he's never hurt anyone. He never left. He was just kind of in the theater doing what he loves and just being harmless and sweet and kind. And then carisabella was just off having a fabulous time. The glamor cat. Her name is the glamor cat. Like she lived a great life. She obviously partied so hard, and just, you know, just had this great time. But now she's now she's back, and she wants redemption, and she gets it, and I'm just feel so stuck for Gus. I love it.

[56:20] Mike Abrams: This has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you? Like, what cats two is coming out? What's the best way for them on social media? Or, how do they stay in touch with you? Yeah,

[56:30] Speaker 2: you can find me. Ed King Wade on Instagram. I think that'd be the best. And yeah, just Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. But if, yeah, if anybody wants to, then I'm more than happy to give them a bit more info on anything you know, cats related or cats two related. It's been it's been super fun. This has

[56:49] Mike Abrams: been awesome. Yeah? Thank you for being a great guest. I loved hearing cats too, and all your experiences and your VHS Middle School tongue selection and everything goes with it.

[57:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, dude. Likewise, I enjoyed hearing your your parody as well. And thanks so much for here. Tell me a bit about your life as well, just before we got on and super interested. Thanks so much for having me. I feel honored, awesome. Well, thanks for

[57:14] Mike Abrams: being an amazing guest, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast. Break down the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher or any wrestler. Listening podcast, follow us on Twitter, Instagram and tick tock at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died. Calm. You.