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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:26] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat. Sasha fee, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today with another amazing guest. He happened to be out of the show when I was in Washington, DC to film my 100th episode with the cats tour. But I am thrilled to have him on the show today. So he was the Rum Tum Tugger on the US national tour, six of cats. Welcome, hey Santos. And thank you for joining me. Yeah, thank you for having me. I love talking to tuggers because it's it was the, my original answer for who the right jello choice to be was a tuggeristophales combination and you and even together, doing all your tick tocks and having all kinds of fun. I'm like, you are just adding to to this fuel

[1:07] Mike Abrams: for sure. I love it so. But let's start at the beginning. You obviously are gonna go on. You went on tour as Tugger. But when was your first introduction to cats? Was it the 98 movie? Was it growing up?

[1:19] Speaker 2: So I'm sure somewhere along the way, I did see the 98 movie. I do remember it, but my first like experience with cats that I can remember was when I was like 11, my dad actually took me to see the tour when it came through Charlotte. I don't remember. I'm 27 now. So when I was 11, it might have been the fourth tour. It was probably the fifth, because

[1:43] Mike Abrams: the fifth for like, 10 years. Yeah, that sounds a long, the long stretch of that tour,

[1:47] Speaker 2: so that we went to see it at Ovens Auditorium in Charlotte, and I didn't like I wasn't in the theater yet, you know, and so I didn't really know what we were going to see. And the only number I actually remember was tuggers number, because he comes down into the audience and starts, like, messing with the ladies. And I was like, I was like, That is awesome. Like, I want to do that. And this is pre me getting into performance, pre me getting into dance, anything like, I was just like, so like, Oh, that's cool, man. Like,

[2:23] Mike Abrams: yeah, he's a memorable character because he is, like, it's the confident. It's kind of like rock star ish and and some of the other ones are different, with the numbers are so different, so unique, that they're very relatable. But that's one that usually stands out for for most people, especially when they can go in the crowd. Because you didn't get to go in the crowd,

[2:39] Speaker 2: did not I cut it pretty close, I think, unfortunately, to the company I would like, you know, as the show went on, I would kind of get bolder and bolder with, like, how far to the edge of the stage I would go with Baos. I gave a few fist bumps or paw bumps, yeah, at the end there, I stole a couple people's phones and I take selfies, you know, but never got to go into the crowd.

[3:05] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. Yeah. So, okay, so you're 11, and 11 is probably like, on the verge of a confusing time to see cats. Oh, most definitely, you are probably just starting to understand that you're watching a coming of age story with Victoria and a very sexual orgy at the ball and like, like, that's the fringe number for me. I'm like, really young. It all is over your head as a kid. Go, just enjoy cats. Yeah, middle like, teenager, late teenager, fine. You're you're an adult to understand what's fine. But that 11 to, like, 1314, range is where it's like, hang on. Like, hold on. What's a lot more going on here? Yeah, did you recognize any of that when you saw it? Or was it just like,

[3:49] Speaker 2: I had no idea what was going on, to be honest. I mean, I remember, like, because I I went into it not knowing it was like a theater show, if that makes sense. My like, my mom told me about it, and she was like, Oh, you and your dad should go, like, you know, bond and see the show. And we went, it was like, uh, it was just so much movement and color and like, all this. And so I was having, like, and I have, I'm, I get terribly distracted anyway, um, so I was like, trying to follow it along. And I was like, What is going on, dude? And it definitely was like, I'm sure my dad probably noticed it, but my dad was probably like, what did I bring myself? You know?

[4:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's, it's sensory overload. And actually, it wasn't until when I went to DC and watched it again live, because, you know, I'd seen it in 2016 it wasn't I, like, realized why I remembered mango Jerry and rumble teaser so much like the first time I saw it, I was like, that member that that whole thing was so that number was memorable. And I'm like, Oh, I really enjoyed that. And then I realized in in DC, it was because it's the only time I wasn't overwhelmed with like, stuff going on. And I'm like, there's so much always happening on stage. That's the one time where it's like, Nope, just focus on just these two. No, seriously, and so, yeah, it like hit me after I saw that first one. I'm like, that's probably why I liked it, is i i Now, like, at least now I know when I watch the show, I understand what's going on, because I've spent hundreds of episodes trying to figure out the plot in the back stories. But in a first time seeing it. You don't pick any of that.

[5:21] Speaker 2: No, not, not even a little bit. I mean, I remember, like, I wanted so bad to get like, a swing out so I could, like, sit in the audience and watch the show, yeah, because, but I just never got the chance. And we have, like, a archival bootleg, you know, that somehow made its way onto my phone. And I won't go into details, but it I was watching him one night, and I was just, like, trying to see, like, you know, little things that were going on. I was like, it's amazing how much stuff you're like, Wait, that one's there. Like, wait, what? Like, you do this, oh, this is because of this. Like, you're like, Oh, you're piecing it together slowly. But that's after like, the fifth watch, you start to, like, realize all the stuff totally.

[6:05] Mike Abrams: And you're, I mean, you were given the story. I mean, like you were given the actual background. So let's go into that. So you get cast in the show, and you're essentially given the whole plot and the backstory and told everything is, was like your 11 year old brain, just mind blown from that.

[6:21] Speaker 2: I remember when it first, like, kind of clicked that, like, you know, so when Christy Cartwright came in to rehearsals, and, you know, we do, like, a felonity workshop, and, you know, you kind of crawl around and get familiar with, like, the movement that goes into being a cat. There's so much of it that is, it's just so like, oh, you know, like, this is kind of steamy, a little bit, yeah, in some places, obviously, there's moments that are, that are super, you know, family friendly or whatever. But it kind of, it takes a couple times to really, like, sort of understand, like, just what's going on. And I think that's kind of what maybe deters people from cats. Because, you know, I feel like cats is one of those things that it's either you love it or you hate it, definitely, you know, so, like, I think a lot of people just are on the hate train because they just don't, they don't grasp it the first time around, because it's literally like nothing else, you know, yeah,

[7:25] Mike Abrams: I've actually one of my goals pretty early on with this podcast, once I realized it was, it was going to continue past 10 episodes, was to find someone who could articulate their hate of it and like, you know, someone who's knows theater and can artia. And I've yet to find anybody. Because Whenever someone's like, I I hate it. Like, Well, tell me why. Give me your like, give me the reason why. It's not a judgment. It's a there is no reason. It's the like, I just didn't like it. It wasn't for me. I saw it once. I didn't get it. And I'm like, Well, yeah. I mean, nobody gets it the first time they watch. If you get the first thing watching, I have more questions for you, of like, how did you process all of that so quickly, like that, yeah, savant, basically,

[8:03] Speaker 2: literally, like, going in from, like, the little bit of memory I had from it when I was 11 to, like, learning the show, it was like, having, like, there was no way I was like, early on, I was like, There's no way I'm gonna get all this because they're explaining stuff To me. They're like, Okay, you and misto are like, you know, your best friends or whatever. And then you and this cat are, like, a thing. But it's not like, really, we're not really driving that point home. It's just kind of known that you're a thing, but you think you might have a thing with this cat also, and then this cat and you hate each other, and this guy, I'm like, What the What are you saying right now? Like, I was like, you know, just like, How Is any of that, like, uh, articulated through the law, you know, yeah. And it's so much of it that's just like, it's so subtle in some ways, you know, yeah, and

[8:51] Mike Abrams: it's really not because there's like, it's not spoken word, like, it's not like, a, oh, we're dating, like, and we're gonna say that on stage, it's like, supposed to be, like, a moment where you just give a look, or you kind of have, like a a dance number together, or like an action and I'm like, again, there's usually 20 of you on stage when that's happening. And so trying to figure that out is, it's why there are people that, like the super, super fans are have gone like 80 times and go every city, because they can pick out a different thing each time, which is what I mean, what I think is really cool about the show is you can watch it over and over and over again, and especially live, you know, like, not the 98 movie, where it's like you're just being fed the version each time, but if you go watch it live, you can pick up a different moment. And I know you all take, like, without changing the show. You all have the ability to make minor tweaks here and there, and there, and especially your character, you have a lot more freedom of like, it's almost encouraged to take some small, you know, opportunities to live with it, yeah,

[9:50] Speaker 2: yeah, yeah. I've definitely, I've gone off the rails once or twice, I think, to where I need somebody to come in and go, Hey, man, relax. You. That?

[10:00] Mike Abrams: Well, that's, that's my favorite question I asked a Tugger is, what was your favorite couple, like, liberties you took, like, what some of the times where you pushed it? Oh,

[10:08] Speaker 2: man. Um, definitely, for starters, definitely the the selfies at the end of the show. Um, because, you know, with, with the COVID era rules, it was never explicitly said that I couldn't, like, go into the audience and mess with people, but there were definitely a couple of times where, like, I stole phones. I would, like, you know, pick a kid's hat up off their head or whatever, and, like, pretend to put it on. So definitely, like, the audience interaction, especially in my number two, I think in the Tugger number there were a lot of moments where I was, I was really messing with the people in the front I think I got somebody to leave one time actually, because I think I was, I was messing with his wife a little too much, and I and then all of a sudden, act two begins. There's a big gap in the front row. And I was like, Whoa, whoops. All right. Dial it back.

[10:59] Mike Abrams: You might have caused a marital riff on the way home. Yeah,

[11:04] Speaker 2: you know, yeah. Tugger definitely tests the strength of the relationships in the front row.

[11:08] Mike Abrams: I love it. It's what you know. And if you if you angered the if it was a husband and wife, if it was a male female type of relationship, they didn't get the bomb ballerina mccavity song like the second act has, has another number, you know, you gotta, yes, gotta stay through the whole thing. Yeah, uh, that's why that's, as always amazes me, too. When people get up and leave, I've never, never thought about getting up and leaving for a show, even stuff I haven't enjoyed. I'm like, let's see it through, you know. Like, oh yeah, it's in two hours. Like, I

[11:40] Speaker 2: mean, I take everything personally, you know, so I'm sure maybe they just, you know, wanted to be traffic or whatever. But I'm always like, that was me. I did that. I

[11:47] Mike Abrams: am, yeah, I'm also just like, what are you gonna do with that extra 3540 minutes of your life? Like, what did what did you What did you get? But I know, so, so you grab some phones, but you didn't, because, like, I know, in 16 and pre COVID, like, you got to, like, go out into the crowd, so you were kind of confined to, what could you reach? Oh,

[12:06] Speaker 2: if I had my way, I would have, like, I would have left the theater. You know what I mean, like, I I'm very like it. If you give me an inch, I'll take a mile. You know what I mean, yeah. And so i There were a lot of times where I was, like, I'm also big on, like, ask for forgiveness, not permission, yeah, you know. So, like, I, I was like, Can I go into the audience and just say f it? And like, you know, yeah, do it anyway. But then, like, I was like, ah, nah, because I gotta get back and, you know, and then I get backstage, and everyone, like, at bows, everyone's like, been waiting on me, and they're like, Dude, we gotta load out. Like, where have you been? I

[12:41] Mike Abrams: mean, what's if you had the freedom during your number to go do anything you wanted, what would have been the the thing you'd want to do most, depending

[12:48] Speaker 2: on the crowd, crowd surf. Crowd surf, I love it. I'm like, half kidding too. Like, like, there were times where I was like, Could I be the first Tugger? Like, crowd surf, like, you know, that would be kind of sick, yeah, dive out back, just die, you know, like, fully, like, have somebody catch and there's been crowds where it's, like, some of those venues, especially like the the stadium style venues in like, Canada, I'm like, Oh, you could easily, like, easily get, like, all the way to the back. You know, what

[13:19] Mike Abrams: that would be probably the most insane bootleg video ever. Is I jumped out and crowd surf fired

[13:26] Speaker 2: instantly, like, literally, you

[13:30] Mike Abrams: know, I see I disagree with that, because I think that the whole point of Tugger, like the character of Tugger, is supposed to be pushing that boundary of like you don't care, like that. Tugger is not supposed to care, and crowd surfing would be very on brand for Tugger. Yeah,

[13:47] Speaker 2: definitely. I see a future where Tugger gets to crowd surf, definitely, or something along those lines. Like, I just, like, I don't know. I love messing with people when I'm in a position like that. So like, yeah, I spend half the show literally just, like, winking at people in the front row, or like, like staring people down, or whatever. Like, I love the audience interaction. That's

[14:09] Mike Abrams: awesome. There's, I wish you got to do green eyes in the like, in the crowd, back in like, because that's what they used to roamed around in the beginning. Yeah, for the show to, like, work your way up onto the stage, and it was just purely messy with people because I wasn't prepared for it, and it scared the living daylights out of me when that life that's another

[14:26] Speaker 2: thing that I remember from earlier, the show that I saw when I was younger was the whole audience, like, when they come through the crowd, you know what I mean this, yeah, and that's like, that's a pretty jarring moment for anybody. I mean, I think that's why, like, a lot of people also get, like, a little nervous to like, Oh, don't, don't look at me. I

[14:45] Mike Abrams: wasn't ready for it. No one wore me for it. You know, lights go off. You were kind of looking on the stage. I'm just picturing a very traditional 80s music, like musical theater. And then all of a sudden, there's one to my right, and it's like, it's dark, and it's like, the the whole thing is a light. Like their eyes flash green. And I've heard some stories of, like, little kids have turned and punched and people I'm like, like, there's been some stuff of, like, You've scared people too much. But as someone who would enjoy mess with the crowd, it's like, you get to really go after the beginning. Oh yeah, that would have been, yeah, one day, hopefully you do this again again. I would have

[15:22] Mike Abrams: have been, like, getting punched. Oh, I would have instantly, yeah. So let's, um, let's go back to the some of the stuff that you were told, you know, you talked about how it was a little bit like that. You may be dating and your friends. And here, what is tuggers relationship story like? What were you given from Chrissy and the team on, on what you needed to know about tuggers, like, life.

[15:42] Speaker 2: So to be honest, like Chrissy definitely gave me, like, the bomb relationship and the misto relationship. You know, me and misto are homies. That was the whole thing. We have a little handshake that's like a finger flip, you know, um, very 90s kind of surfer moment, which I was kind of like, I was like, I don't know, can we change this, like, a DAP or something like, um, but with bomb, uh, she sort of explained to me in rehearsals, the difference was that, like she said, bomb is real sex and Tugger is kind of all talk. You know what? I mean, she was so she was like, there's a part of Tugger that's not so follow through when it comes to a lot of the stuff that he totes on about, you know what I mean. So there's moments where bomb sort of overpowers him in that way, because she's actually like about it. And whereas Tugger is kind of like, he comes out there and makes a show and is all, you know, whatever, whatever. But you know, his follow through might not be really there. So there's moments like in his number where he's like, Oh, I only like what I find for myself, kind of like a, okay, like she's, she's really moving in. Like, hang on. I gotta still, you know, I gotta still, you know, yeah, show off a little bit. Um, so that that was something that was something that was kind of interesting to play with, because at first I just assumed that he was just, like, it's, it's just all sex and frills and, you know, but there's a little more complexity to it, which I kind of appreciate, and that's that's sort of real for characters like Tugger is like, They're not always, you know, the they're not really, like, always about it, you know what? I mean,

[17:24] Mike Abrams: yeah, that's so interesting. So that's, that's kind of a version. I haven't really you spend so much time being portrayed for Tugger as, like, the confident, I don't care. I'm gonna do whatever I want. I'm with every single cat. Like, you know, they'd be lucky to you know you're sleeping with every cat, male, female, you're sleeping with all of them like you're just, you're just enjoying your life. And the guidance is almost like, you kind of talk that talk, but you don't back it up as much. That's interesting. Like

[17:51] Speaker 2: some of them, like, of course, they want to sleep with you, yeah, whatever you know. But it's also like, maybe, maybe they haven't, you know. And it's maybe like, but you know, I also, like, I love the confident, boisterous aspect of Tugger. Yeah, you know, I do play it up quite a lot, you know, like, I just think that's, that's the fun side of it.

[18:13] Mike Abrams: Totally, yeah, that's the fun side to perform. But now, like, thinking about, I always think so much of this wrongfully so of like, that these cats are just real people, and let's, like, think through their, like, personal lives. Yeah, so hearing that Tugger has got all these insecurities and like, needs therapy because he portrays this, it's like, kind of a different take of this. I hadn't really thought about. I've always thought of Tugger as just like David Bowie rock star, sure. Just totally at all times on stage doing that. But you're saying, like, oh, no, this is backstage. I got some problems.

[18:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think he definitely is that rock star, you know. But like, I don't think he's as, like, I don't think anyone is as, you know, black and white as they might seem totally, you know. So it's kind of a cool thing to keep in the back of your head. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to, like, let it overpower my whole performance, because I was like, because that's not as fun, yeah, spectacle, you know, it's cool to see somebody who's like, they can do no wrong, you know what? I mean, they're just, you know, but, like, I was like, Okay, try to throw in a little subtlety. A, because Chrissy Cartwright told you to, yeah, and then B, because, you know, like, it makes sense,

[19:16] Mike Abrams: yeah, where the, like, where's the moments where you would throw that down, because it like, a look or an action, because, like, it's not going to be again, not spoken. And so much of your number is very outwardly, like confident. So was it other parts that you were able to slide that, that thought in? There were

[19:32] Speaker 2: definitely a couple moments with bomb, I remember where, like, I would kind of in, in the ball, were in the circle, you know, hearing Victoria's Victoria and Plato's section, yeah. Um, there were times where I was more like, I would brush up against her, kind of, but then kind of keep my distance, and then be like, Oh, come here. Like, let's go. You know, when the circle gets smaller, like, oh, let's go this way. You know, let's see what everyone else is doing. And, um. I tried to, like, as best I could, to keep it sort of where we weren't, like, over doing it too, too much, you know what? I mean, um, also, because I didn't want to let that, like, sort of get driven home too hard, yeah, you know,

[20:16] Mike Abrams: yeah, because it's, it's like, the polar opposites of, like, yeah, the character which is so interesting from a, like, a, like, a storytelling perspective, but also really hard to probably play both ends of that spectrum when, especially when the more fun one is the confident one, yeah, you want to go out there and just like, own it and have a great time. Oh, absolutely with misto so your friends, like, your Is there is there not there's not a relationship, because that's what all the fans want, and that's what all the fan fictions written about, and that's what most of the pictures are drawn on.

[20:47] Speaker 2: Listen, man, as far as I'm concerned, there is one, all right, okay, like, I know I I'm probably not. I don't know what the rules with this stuff are. You know what I mean? Because there was, like, I don't think there are rules. There was a whole press day that I missed when rehearsals began. And so I just, I speak very freely, um, but like, I like the idea that there is one, you know what I mean. I think with with cats in general, like they're not monogamous creatures or whatever I mean, like, and I think that, why not? Why wouldn't the the boisterous David Bowie character, have his, you know, like his true love on the side. Or, you know what I mean, like, it makes a lot of sense. I um, people, people have gotten really deep into that theory, and they've talked about a lot of, like, different levels of Miss Stone Tugger. Um, I don't know where I stand as far as how, like, deep it goes, because I don't, like, I don't know, you know what I mean, like, all these theories were presented to me, like, midway through me learning the show by like, either other cast members or, like, the fan base. Yeah, because I remember early on, they were like, just, so, you know, like, as Tugger, you're gonna get a lot of, you're gonna get contacted a lot by by, like, fans, yeah. And I was like, fans, what are you talking about, you know what I mean? I was like, I'm a, I'm, like, a theater guy. Like, what do you mean, fans, you know? Like, Oh, yeah. Who am I? You know what I mean? And they were like, yeah, just Tugger has, like, a big following, you know, and there's a, there's a huge, you know, whatever. And so, like, I had people reach out and would be like, so, like, what, where do you stand on on Tucker and misto, like, or, where do you stand on on valise and and? And I'll be like, Oh, I guess I didn't really think about that, that, like, so it kind of forced me to, like, really dive into it and be like, Where do I stand on this? But like, for me, like it was the fun way to go, and it made so much sense, and it was, and even is, like, who played our misto? He and I were also roommates, and he's, like, legit one of my best friends. Yeah, ever like, I love this kid. And I was like, I want as much Tugger misto like relationship as I can get with you, because, like, I Hank and admin get along so well. And I was like, I need this to translate through Tugger and and misto. You know, yeah, it's, it's so

[23:10] Mike Abrams: interesting. I kind of love hearing that, hear your thoughts on it. And just in general, because it's the fan base is, is powerful and crazy and fun, like, they're really, really good group. I've noticed in the fan base, there are a couple things that there's just not answers on, and there's a lot of like, strife, even within like, there's opinions, but you can't, you can't get consensus. Oh, yeah. One is, is, there's a very big section of the fan base that does not care about the new choreography. It's like traditional old don't worry about it. Yes, which is one thing that I can't even speak about because I only saw 2016 and beyond. So I'm like, Cool. I don't know anything about dancing. The one though, that's interesting, is like, when you start getting into the relationships, there is, like, a group where it's like, oh no, Tugger Mustafa definitely get dating and together. And there's like, well, but are they? And then you get the same thing with a couple other relationships with like, bombardina and Tugger and, like, some of the our demeanor, and bomb sisters, are they best friends? And, like, there's not consistency. And I have sparked some controversy when I've made a meme, and it's like, I made a meme making fun of Demeter and bomb sexual energy, and they're like, they're sisters. And then I, like, put it up on Canada, and I got half of the it's literally half and half. It's like, half are saying sisters, half are saying friends. And so there's not right answers to this, because there shouldn't be. It's not, yeah, it's not what's part of the story. It's what makes the story so fun, because it was a world created you can have all these different things, and they're cats. So like, to your point, they're just cats. They're not male, female, they're cats, like, so it's, I think it's really cool. It's a part I like about this most because it allows me and other fans to create other parts of this world that don't exist. Yeah, and be able to say, like, Well, what did grizzabel do when she left the tribe? Like, I have theories, but nobody's ever got an answer to that, because it wasn't ever really. Talked about, because it's not relevant to the two and a half hours you're doing on stage. Yeah, and that is what's cool. There's a Tumblr. There's a group of cats fans that write cats and, like, everyday interactions on Tumblr. It's a COVID.

[25:12] Speaker 2: I've seen a couple of those. I think is awesome. Like, yeah, I got so sucked into it early on, because, like, everyone was like, Oh, just so, you know, the Tumblr fan base is pretty big, yeah. And I was like, I haven't been on Tumblr since I was, like, 15, you know? So I was like, Oh, let me, let me check this out. I was like, This is so sick. Like,

[25:30] Mike Abrams: can't do it. I'll lose so many hours if I get into it, because I know too much now. Like, I could write, I could write every character in detail, and I don't, I don't need that to be another aspect, yeah, iFrame now, but they're, they're a really fun group of people too, because they, like, they're creating new characters. And they're like, it's so wholesome. I kept thinking. When I was first told about, I'm like, There's no way this is wholesome. Like, this is going to be a little, like, sexual and, you know, like, a little, a little furry ish. And it was like, Nope, it's just a very, very wholesome group of people enjoying art, enjoying the art,

[26:01] Speaker 2: honestly, and like that. It's so cool to, like, get to be a part of something like that, too. And because we're on such a small level that, like, you know, we get to, like, interact with those people, you know, it's not like, if they were, like, Doctor Who fans and, you know, yeah, they're trying. The only time they get to interact with those people was, really, is, like, at Comic Con or something, yeah, like, we're in it, you know, they can contact us on Instagram and we'll see it, or they'll, you know. And so, like it the fans that, like, don't overstep and make you like, you know, and ask you too many sexual questions, because there are a few of those, yeah. But like, the ones that are really chill, like, I some of them, like, we even consider friends, like, we hung out with, you know, a couple of them, like, just throughout the tour, when they come to visit, you know, whatever. Oh

[26:47] Mike Abrams: yeah, I see them. I see them on social media. I know who they are. They're all great people. They all seem so nice. Yeah, they're

[26:52] Speaker 2: awesome. I mean, really, and it's such a privilege to, like, get to have that at this level in my like, career, you know what I mean? Because it's like, who am I? You know what I mean, but like, I get to, like, experience like, someone who not only, like, appreciates like, my performance and my take on stuff, but like, gets to bring me into this world that's like, So dude, the like, it's so vast. Like, there's so much backstory and stuff and like, how can you not get sucked into something like that? Yeah, and

[27:20] Mike Abrams: there's just so much you can do with it. There's the cosplaying version, there's the artist, there's the Tumblr writers, there's collectors. There's just so much to it because it's been around for so long. Yeah? I mean, that's where, for me, is everyone's like, when does this podcast end? I'm like, well, it's not, because there's 40 years of five, usually five different productions going on every year, there's like endless amounts of people to talk to who have done this show. And that's what's cool about it, and is not there's no exact one answer to 90% of the things I ask, yeah, and that's what makes all these fun, is like, I kind of joke. I'm documenting cats history just by getting everyone's perspective of their like, well, this is what I was told, and it's slightly different than what you were told. It's slightly different than what we did. Different than what we did, because we were friends and roommates, you know, like, there's, there's just all these takes on it. Yeah, so I want to what are the other I mean, you talked about bomb, you talked about Miss, though, is there any other relationships that you weren't necessarily told, but just you were like, this one would have been fun to play, um,

[28:22] Speaker 2: with, with Tugger specifically, there's a couple times where, like, um, we're, we were really big on um, uh, Tugger teaser. We were big on that one teaser, yeah, we had a, we had a lot of little moments like, okay, where we passed by each other. You know, teaser was one of those characters I didn't really get to to interact with so much like on the stage, but we had a lot of passing moments, and so we would always goof about that backstage. Me and Taryn, who played our rumble teaser. And I was, I was really big on that. And there is actually, like, a bit of a following for Tugger teaser. As far as I know, from like, the fan perspective, there was also, well, can

[29:08] Mike Abrams: I ask a question about that? So you, when you play a tug or teaser, type of like, moment, does Mungo Jerry? Does Brian get? Like, like, that's the other relationship is, like, they're probably together. Like, does that almost become, like, a little bit of a love triangle that you play on stage when that happens?

[29:27] Speaker 2: So it's so subtle. And and Brian definitely, like, I don't think I get to interact with Mongo Jerry, like, even one time, like, the only time I can, okay, I can get to, like, see him is when Macavity comes out and we give each other, like we used to give each other, like a sort of, like a worried meow kind of look. But that's really the only time like that we get. He's behind me in Tugger a lot. He's like, they like framed me at one point with some of the choreography and stuff. But so like that was sort of like a and also. So I don't know it. I know they're playing it like they're a couple, yeah, but I don't know what the canon is,

[30:08] Mike Abrams: so that it's a very different one where there's some brother sister thoughts, but I think most of it, at least Brian and Taryn kind of explained it as they were trying to, like, be together, but they're also trying to win. The part that I loved is they were trying to win approval from from Jen Annie dots, which they thought was Brian, was Mungo's mom, and that they were trying to work in of like, okay, we need her approval to be a couple, yeah,

[30:35] Speaker 2: yeah. I do remember them saying something like that, so, yeah. But I was always like, I'm not really sure, like, what the vibe is here, yeah, and so I those moments were sort of just between me and teaser. And that was also, like, it's funny, like, when you form relationships as people like backstage, you kind of go, oh, we should totally do this, or we should totally do this, or whatever, on stage, and then it, like, works its way into the canon, yeah. And so, like, there are a couple moments with, like, I remember someone saying, me and tumble Brutus aren't supposed to like each other. But we had a couple, and there were a couple moments where I was like, Get out of here, you know? Yeah, um, but we had a couple, like, smiley, playful moments too. Um, it's just funny, like, there's, there's so many, there's so much you can do in like, just these tiny little passes with like glances that like, literally form a whole story together,

[31:38] Mike Abrams: well. And that's, I mean, your point is spot on, which is that the relationships off stage impact, because there's, again, it's not spoken word is what happens on stage. And we've seen some of the canons. Like, if you read the Wikipedia canon, there's some moments where they're like, these two are together, and it's like, well, no, that stems from 2016 because these two guys were really good friends off stage, yeah. And like, their characters weren't supposed to be in the 1998 movie, but now they kind of like play some moments, and now that's the way it goes moving forward. So

[32:06] Speaker 2: yeah, or you have the characters that got married in real life, yeah, you know what? Yeah, there's

[32:10] Mike Abrams: some, there's definitely some Tugger or bomb by arena marriages. There's been a couple others. A lot of them do involve tuggers, which is kind of funny, yeah, so I don't know if that's a casting kind of like, just personality, style or what, but I have noticed that of the relationships I've heard that have turned into marriages, I think I'd say almost two thirds of them involve a Tugger.

[32:33] Speaker 2: It's so funny because, like, there there are so many, like, people in theater that I know that a lot of people I've worked with in the past have had, like, theater parents or whatever. And there's not one but multiple stories of, Oh, how did your parents meet? You know? Oh, they did cats together. Yeah, back in whatever. And I'm like, huh, weird theme there,

[32:55] Mike Abrams: yeah. Well, I do kind of get it. You for you're all in peak performance shape, in unitards, crawling all of each other for two and a half hours every night. Like, it's a sexual show that, like,

[33:09] Speaker 2: you're it's also just theater people, yeah, theater people in general. Like, it's, you know, there's always, I don't think I've been in a single show, or there hasn't been some sort of Showmance that goes on at some point, you know, like, I mean, I don't know. I don't want to generalize either. I'm sure people are probably like, that's not true, but like, it's just been my experience, you know. But who's to say I've never been in the world?

[33:32] Mike Abrams: So I couldn't, I couldn't even tell you anything. I played one, one performance in my life as like a kindergartner, and I've never been on stage since. So here I have no, no frame of reference for this. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to do some rapid fire. Yeah, some some cats questions. So if you could go on for anybody, not Tucker, forget whether you're capable, male, female, if you're it's in your vocal range. Just if you could do one track one day, who would you want to perform as

[34:01] Speaker 2: misto, no doubt, wanted these turns. Oh my God, dude, if I could, if I could dance like that, like it'd be done, like I'd be reckless, blah, I love it, like I it's, I just love, I love dance, and I love movement so much, and I have such a little background with it. I did like competition dance when I was, like, an early teen, only for like, two years. And that's something, one of those, like, Oh, if I just stuck with it, you know, like, and I that easily, no doubt. Misto,

[34:30] Mike Abrams: awesome. Um, who are your favorite and least favorite characters from the show?

[34:35] Speaker 2: My favorite character. I mean, even before I was Tugger, easily. Tugger. Um, love Mongo Jerry and rumble teaser. Love the twins. Tans are crazy. Love the twins, like such a cool track, like seriously and tumble, tumble rudus. Love that one. I as far as least favorite, you really sure. Sure, honestly, like, that's something that I've ever thought about. Um, I guess, like, Ah, dude, I don't know. I don't see pounce a lot on stage, and so, like, but that's like, as far as, like, from a Tugger perspective, on Yeah, stage, I know he gets seen by the audience quite a bit. Um, but just like, I, I guess I don't know which,

[35:21] Mike Abrams: which cat personality, if you took the people out of it, like, if this was the, like, just the way that they're supposed to, would be the one that you would get, like, you wouldn't get along with in real life.

[35:33] Speaker 2: Which cat personality would eyes Hank Yeah, not get along with? Oh, dude. Um, probably Alonzo alanzane, okay,

[35:41] Mike Abrams: what is your favorite song from the show Tugger? Yeah, he's just alright. So if you were, I always asked one fun one. So if you were, I threw this to to Luke, and I tried to turn them into a boy band, because that was my original joke. Is that I wanted an X factor boy band, right one direction. Jellicle choice. So if you were with misto as a boy band, Tugger misto, who are you filling out your boy band with from the other cats? Like, what are the other cats you're adding to your your boy band?

[36:12] Speaker 2: Um, definitely it would be like tuggers, the the bad boy, crazy one that eventually goes solo. He got mystic sweetheart, and then I would say, I need tumble in there somewhere. I just feel like he could, he could do like the crazy, crazy choreo and the dance moves, and then be the spectacle of the group. I kind of want Plato in there our Play Doh, especially Sam Bucha, and we call it Big Sam. He's just this, this tall, gorgeous drink of water, who, like you just need as a part of it. And if it was a four piece, I would leave it at that. I would also, I could see adding monk to be on monk, yeah, you know, okay, just kind of like, the the more like, downtrodden, serious one. Yeah, you know what I mean. I like

[37:06] Mike Abrams: that. I thought about this when I first made that joke. I'm like, All right, how do I expand this out? And I thought, what came what first came to my mind was, well, you're gonna be funded by bus for Jones, and you're gonna be managed by skimble shanks. And so I was like, Well, I got that part out of the way. Now what? Like, what's next? Who actually is going to perform with you? So I like those answers,

[37:24] Speaker 2: bus first, like, the big weight Capital Records. Oh yeah. He's

[37:27] Mike Abrams: your, yeah, he's your, he's the cash. He's paying for everything and and symbols keeping you on track. He's changing tour. Yeah, all right, this is the, the million dollar question. I've argued at length that I don't think it should be grizzabel as a Jellicle choice. So I want to hear, do you want to defend Grizabella, or do you want to make a different Jellicle choice? And why? Oh,

[37:50] Speaker 2: man, I thought about this so hard even before coming on, and I was just like, I don't know, because, like, I'm really split on the decision. I I think Grizabella needs to be put out of her misery, in a way. But also, like, I think there's something to be said for like, can we just take her in and clean her up a little bit and help her out, but instead of just making her, you know, go to the next life? Um, and part of me is just like, I think Gus the theater cat is a perfect example of someone who's lived the life they did it. They they have literally squeezed the last drop out of who they are and like, what they do, and then it's, it's just time, you know? Yeah. So I think Gus the theater cat is like, the obvious choice, in my opinion. So

[38:40] Mike Abrams: if you're so I do keep track. So if you're picking, what am I putting your vote down?

[38:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, you can put me as Gus. Okay, I don't think Grizz. I think, I think Grizz could have gotten cleaned up in in this time. That's,

[38:51] Mike Abrams: that's my, my current argument. I mean, my joke was always the tug and misto police together. Uh, yeah, direction type of, type of thing. And I think there's an Edwin drew style, like, let's let the audience vote on who's their favorite performance that night. Like, who should go? Oh yeah. Brings a whole nother layer to this. But my real answer, and I think I noticed, it's because most of the grizzelles now are younger, is they don't look as like, weathered and worn of like that. Oh my god, they're not gonna make it a year. It's like, Yeah, let's let's stick her back. The family's welcoming her. Let's let her, give her some time.

[39:24] Speaker 2: Let her, let her, you know, get back to it. Still be glamorous. Still be Yeah, next year. Yeah, exactly this time

[39:30] Mike Abrams: I have you. Did your cast ever talk about this much? I mean, I heard that they did it when I like, the week I was coming, because obviously that was like, I sparked it a lot. But did you ever discuss this?

[39:41] Speaker 2: We didn't like, uh, I early on in rehearsals, we most likely did, and I was, I was so chaotic trying to learn the show that I probably it slipped over my head. But there was, there was a moment in rehearsals when, um, when the story was finally starting to click for me, of like, what was going on? Um. Where we were just doing, like, a stumble through, walk through, like, just to get the, you know, the the stage spacing down, and John anchor bow, who played our Gus, um, turns to our jelly lorm, and he goes, Well, maybe next year. It cracked me up so hard in that, because I was, like, because I was starting to get it, you know, what's going on. And I was like, Oh my God, put this guy out of this business. Like, it just wrecked me, although that was so funny. So that's sort of where my head's been at, like, since then. I was like, yeah, it's kind of Gus man.

[40:35] Mike Abrams: I love it. That's such a great story too, because it's, it's like, it's how they have to play it, and feel like there's if every guest I've talked to has to almost sell themselves on, like, why they shouldn't go, like, to play it every night. Yeah, because they should be. In a lot of cases, a lot of people think that they actually were it until Grizz came back. It was like, this was your year, and then all of a sudden she came back and ruined it. And they have to, like, accept that, and they have to, like, figure out whatever acting method they need to to be able to do that every night and not be angry. And so every guest, I'm like, no, no, you can say yourself, like, it's okay. Well, I know we all know it should be you,

[41:10] Speaker 2: yeah, but yeah, that is,

[41:16] Mike Abrams: that is so fun. So how can people stay in touch with you? This has been super fun to chat and hear your story, dude, this

[41:22] Speaker 2: has been awesome. I The easiest way is Instagram. It's just at Hank Santos. Also, I'm trying to stay relevant on Tiktok, man, I swore I wasn't gonna do Tiktok, and then I started making Tugger talks, and they did pretty well. So I was like, Oh, now I have to buy this for every drop.

[41:44] Mike Abrams: So I I was, I've told, I told your entire cast, when I was with him in DC, I told everyone I was talking to that was doing a regional production, the cats transition tick tocks are so easy and well done. And then someone put it, framed it for me. They're like, well, not really, because once we finish our makeup, we're like, about to go on stage and, like, not ready to go do stuff, but I'm like, you have this built in transition and costume and, like, amazing, just total ambiance that you can put into these videos. So it's so fun to watch yours. It's

[42:17] Speaker 2: so frustrating as Tugger, because, like, I get the 20 minute intermission to do anything in that costume, because I start the show as Bill Bailey. Yeah, it's just a regular run of the mill looking cat. And so like, all of my tiktoks as Tugger, I sweat buckets, and like, half the makeup is gone, and like, the wigs starting to come off, and it's I'm just a mess. So I'm like, I'm running off stage, like, reapplying my makeup, like, and they're like, are you good, dude? You need water anytime? I'm like, No, I gotta make a tick, tock. Hang on, yeah? I didn't even

[42:50] Mike Abrams: think about that because you started as Bill Bailey. So then you redo your makeup, right? Like, yeah,

[42:54] Speaker 2: black lines and, like, some glitter and some other things, yeah?

[42:58] Mike Abrams: So you could, you couldn't do the, like, pre show in your

[43:03] Speaker 2: every Tiktok that I've made is always at intermission, and it's always like, I'm, I guarantee you I'm soaking wet, like, because I sweat buckets in that vest and that fur, yeah, and so like, but I wanted to do more because, like, for me specifically, like, I have, you know, like, I have, like, a sleeve of tattoos, and I don't The Tick Tock that, like did the best for me is like, I come out. Everyone says I look like an alt boy that transitions into like a theater boy, you know, like, and I always thought that was cool, because I was never really like, I wouldn't really classify myself as a theater kid anyway. Um, and I love the juxtaposition of like, you know, having, like, my my tattoos and my, you know, piercings and, yeah, edgy look into like, I'm the Rum Tum Tugger, yeah, had some useful,

[43:54] Mike Abrams: you know, peak theater, like, as, yeah, as you can get. And I was like, All right, dang. I wanted to kind of milk that a little more, um, but, you know, it's, I'm glad that, I'm glad that they did. Well, that's, that was kind of sick, honestly. Yeah, I so, I mean, I I've as someone who pretty much only makes memes on tick tock, and because I don't need to be in it, can't dance. I'm sitting there going, you all are professional dancers for the most part. Like any trend that you see. It's like, Y'all can pick that dance up in five minutes, and I'll never be able to do it. So yeah, you're

[44:26] Speaker 2: built for Tiktok. You also feel like such a jackass during intervention when, like, everyone's so tired and everyone's sweaty and like, you're in the middle of a split week or whatever, and you come in, like, their dressing rooms, you're like, does anyone want to be in a Tiktok with me real quick? Like, and everyone want to dig water. Like, no, go away, you know what I mean. And so, like, I've tried to, like, I have a couple in my drafts really not finished, because it was, like, a very ambitious, like, start to, uh, I wanted to involve everybody, you know what I mean, yeah, and we're at the point in the contract where I would come back. Like, okay, so I need bomb right here, and then I need Vic over here, and then I need, like, misto in my back, and then I need dude over here. And like, everyone's like, dude, go away. Like, what? Like, we're exhausted. Like, enough, and you're just like, you feel like, so, like, oh, okay,

[45:16] Mike Abrams: I still you should have done more. I know I agree, but I get it. I totally understand. It's like, mid show, it's really tough. And it's not like you're putting this on just for, you know, for fun on a on a Saturday, it's like, it's, no, you're going to work. Yeah, you're trying to, like, do this content in between. But it's no better or worse than like, now that I know some of the, especially the theater influencers, I've just gotten to meet a couple of them in New York. It's like they're recording their content, like, outside the theater, just selfie style on their phone. It's like everyone's kind of looking around and so and again. But he's doing it. You got to lean into it.

[45:51] Speaker 2: You got you just feel like such a jackass, because you're just, it's just so hard like to you really gotta, like, you gotta shake it off and just be like, Okay, this is what I do for work. Yeah. But sometimes people are like, Oh, look at this kid making a tick tock, I

[46:04] Mike Abrams: know. And every, I mean, I live in New York, and so every time I go to to theater, I have to go through Times Square, like I get off, I go through Yeah, square, and the amount of people I see, and they're usually tourists who I'm like, these are not influencers with their with their trip tripods and like, they're like, ring light with them. I'm like, Yeah, this is, I know, this is just a picture, and I take it every time. I'm like, I'm like, All right, I'm gonna send this to my, my 800 followers back home, you know.

[46:31] Speaker 2: And I've tried to, like, I have a couple that are, like, just not cat regular thirst Trappy tick tocks that I've made. And like, I post them, and instantly I just shrivel with cringe, because I'm like, Oh God, what am I doing with my life? Like, you know, my grandfather fought in a war, yeah? Like, God, on

[46:51] Mike Abrams: social media, yeah. It's, it's a, we're in a different, different era, but it's, it's fun. It's fun content to see, it's fun to see it all kind of happen. And then there's also, like, there's a positive side of the influencing world too. So I like to think of the like educational and help and the ability for, you know, I've gotten some messages from people who are like, I didn't get to see the tour because they live in the middle of nowhere in the country and are so excited to be able to see your content or hear this podcast, or see bootlegs or some versions. It's like, there's still ways to interact with it, even if you're not able to go and so it's also an accessibility thing that I think is really cool for, for shows that maybe aren't as easy to go see.

[47:32] Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. I mean, that's, that's what really keeps me, like, wanting to stay interacting with people like, you know, I I definitely try as hard as I can. Because, again, like, who am I, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not some a list or whatever, dad. I'm just, I'm, like, a theater dude, you know, doing like, a non union tour. And so when people reach out and they're like, oh my god, like, I wanted to see you so bad. I love your content like or like you inspire me, or this and this and this, I'm like, I want to keep interacting with that because, like, I know how much it would have meant, because usually it's like, you know, sometimes, like, teenagers or whatever, sometimes it's like people who are kind of in that period of their life where they don't really know what they want to do, and it's a scary moment for them, and this gives them a lot of comfort. And like, like, I want to be somebody who can, like, you know, talk to those people and give them that back, you know, because they've, they're giving me a career first of all, yeah, and, you know, I really just want to, like, I don't know, just I like to interact with people. Yeah, they're fans. It means a lot to me, you know, that they're willing to to like, do you know, do all this, like, background, Canon theory stuff, you know, and like, it means so much to them. And I'm like, Oh, this is awesome. Like, I just want to, you know, shout out to them honestly, like, yeah,

[48:50] Mike Abrams: it means the world to them to have that interaction. And it's like, it's such a simple, easy thing to do, too. So it's like, to keep that perspective is awesome and and it's really like, they're the ones, like, the show doesn't go on if people don't buy tickets, you know, like, it's, yeah, you can't. It wouldn't be going for this long if there wasn't that fan base.

[49:07] Speaker 2: No, legitimately, like, we've, we've had fans that have come out to probably, like, 30 cities. You know what? I mean, there's ones that have, like, repeatedly seen the show, have followed the show around. And some people are always like, are like, Are you cool with that? Like, whatever, of course, I'm cool with it. What do you mean? Like, they're, they're coming to my they're buying the ticket to keep me in a job. Like, and they're also, they're also very nice people too. And they, like, they show a genuine interest in this stuff. And, like, naturally, you have one or two, like, people that sort of overstep and kind of push your your boundaries a little bit when it comes to, like, bringing it into your personal life. You know what I mean? But like, that's anything I mean, that's cats, that's any other tallest show. You know, I've never understood

[49:53] Mike Abrams: the criticism of, like, the going to CMA times, because I know it's not like, complete apples, apples. But like, I'm a huge sports fan. And I go to games. I've gone to other cities, go to games. Those games don't dramatically change. No like for the most part, especially once you get to like the pro basketball games, like they're pretty much the same every place you go. It's the same type of fandom, and it's the same type of interactions with the players as is with the actors. And there's people that are it means the world to go get an autograph and to say hi, and then there's some that will cross the line, and that is just like so many. It's art, like, it's so many things that are like that. And it's, it's always strange when there's hate on the group of, maybe not just cats people, like a theater person that goes and travels, and it's like, oh, but it's normal for baseball fan or a basketball fan or whatever. So I think it's like, this should be normalized, like, it's a it's it's a fan, absolutely.

[50:43] Speaker 2: And every show is different, you know, in a way, like, I always think back to, like, when we started the tour in like, Modesto in San Jose, when I was like, a nervous wreck doing the show, because I just learned it, and I was trying to, I was following the footsteps of, like, Zach Bravo and people so good at the role, and so, like, well loved within the community. I was terrified at first, and then, like, at the end of the tour, I'm this big, confident. I found my own Tugger, whatever. And I'm like, I wish those people in San Jose that were so sweet and so cool, like, you know, got to see the Tugger that I am now. And, like, all this stuff, you know. So, like, I have no issue when people choose to follow the show, because I'm like, great, you get to see the evolution of and there's just a natural evolution that happens in theater too. Like, you you get a little bored sometimes, yeah, same thing. So you change some stuff up. And that's why, like, dance captains, people are there to be like, Hey, man, reel it back too far, yeah, or you're not doing this anymore. There's too much this, you know, yeah, it's always different. And I'm like, Why? Why, if you are a super fan of the show, would you not want to get to see like, that kind of

[51:54] Mike Abrams: stuff, totally. I mean, I also think, like, you make like, small changes every day, every every performance. And then I just go back to when I was there in DC that Friday. I gave almost, I would say, half your group, a very, very unique thing to try on stage, which was, like, so fun to do. It wasn't material, but I noticed some of them, and then I did see it the next day, and those decisions weren't made that next day, because it was like, we'll try it. This one didn't work. This one maybe did. Yeah. So it's like, those things are gonna be different every time. And, yeah, it's just where do you look and how does it happen? And especially on tour, you have so many swings going on constantly, exactly, yeah,

[52:31] Speaker 2: like when the covers go on, like, God, there was a night in 1000 Oaks where it was literally, like, we had like, nine people out. It was like, it was a completely different show. It was literally like our skimble Shanks was Gus that night, our Gus was Deuteronomy that night. We had a completely different bomb. We had a different demeanor, different teaser, different tumble, different alanzo, different like it was like everybody except Tugger and like, and like Cassandra, yeah, even remember, like, everybody was different, a different role. It was like, everyone took one step to the right, yeah, just filled out another cat that can't but I'm like, I if I knew the show and like, had seen, like, the regular, like, everyday people go on, and then you see, like, you know that that must be, like, it was cool to get to be on stage during that but I was, yeah, imagine if, like, you know, the show and like, you know, you see totally different version, and

[53:29] Mike Abrams: you see, yeah, you see, because it's everyone will have a slightly different take on their character. So it is every time is gonna have a tweak. So it's why it still goes. It's why the fans will go many times, because they'll watch one character that night, or they'll watch like, a different person going on. And there's a big group of like, theater fans that the minute they hear somebody's covering or going on, they're like running to the theater, they get excited because it's a different version, which is what's cool about it so well, this has been so fun. I appreciate you taking the time, and everyone should follow along with you to see all the cool things you're doing and like your tick tocks. And yes please, and encourage you to make more by liking the Tick Tock so you can go out and the middle of Charlotte and film some stuff where everyone's looking at you.

[54:13] Speaker 2: I need the engagement, man, it's a new world out there. I I love it. This has been so much fun. Yeah, it's been awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad I finally got to sit down with you.

[54:25] Mike Abrams: I know finally, finally got to do it. I know is didn't work out in DC, but here we are today. Yeah, well, this has been so fun. Thank you, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown, the cash atrophy. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram or Tiktok. Twitter, Instagram, or tick tock at the wrong cut diet, or check our website,