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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:24] Mike Abrams: wrong cat died the podcast. Break down the castafi. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was on the infamous US national tour five as tumble Brutus, but he's also performed in, I believe, over nine productions, and has casted it before, and has done a ton of work on cats, and is currently a casting director at the Fulton theater in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So welcome Joey apropos, and thank you for joining me. Hi.

[0:49] Mike Abrams: dig into the casting piece, because that's something I just haven't talked as much about. And I know I mean, you've done this so many times and so many different versions and productions and played characters. I I'm excited to hear all your different takes, but I always want to start the beginning, because you, you know you are in the era that was, like, right around the 1998 movie of being probably, like, it's not like you grew up with it as a child and you watched it as a little kid, but you like, what was your first introduction to the show? Was it that movie, or was it some version that traveled around the country.

[1:20] Speaker 2: I was a theater kid. Grew up in New Orleans, and my parents, they fostered my interest in IT. So instead of celebrating Mardi Gras when I was in fourth grade, we took a trip to New York City, and I saw Cass on Broadway in 1989 I think it was so that was my first introduction to it. I'll never forget green eyes during the PROLOG. It's just crazy. And then going up and, you know, meeting old dude on the tire, so you got to go up at intermission. Oh, they still did that back then, yeah. So that was my first time with the show. And then, obviously, yes, I was, I was graduating high school in 97 so that video came out. I was going to college as a theater major, and, you know, I excelled at dance, so I of course, gravitated towards that show, and just I was a gymnast, so that was, like, the perfect show for me to be in, yeah, and I lucked out, you know, I lucked out and got to be a part of it early on.

[2:13] Mike Abrams: So did you like when you saw that show and you saw it the first time, and being a gymnast and being a dancer, did you did you gravitate towards a tumble Brutus, or somebody who did like that, some of the tumbling past, yeah,

[2:24] Speaker 2: absolutely. I mean, I don't think I really remembered character names when I was younger. And even in that, when seeing the, you know, the DVD, I just was like, Oh, well, you know, this is a perfect show for me. Like, you know, I was a strong tumbler, a trained tumbler. I knew I could, I could tumble eight times a week and be healthy. So yeah, and then when the show, when I got the show, it was kind of like one of those dream things where I picked up the phone, called my parents, and was like, Oh my gosh, you guys aren't gonna believe this. You know,

[2:51] Mike Abrams: that's amazing. So was it, was it the first one? Like, what was if you were a theater kid growing up and you did New York trips, like, Where was cats in that? Like, was it the first thing you went and saw, or was it a couple trips in?

[3:02] Speaker 2: No, that was the first trip to New York. We saw cats, we saw Les Mis. We saw a chorus line and nonsense,

[3:12] Mike Abrams: three classics,

[3:19] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay, so this is first trip. How about how old were you at that first trip? I

[3:26] Mike Abrams: you are an age where it probably all the sexual stuff went over your head, okay, and it's just the dance numbers,

[3:35] Mike Abrams: then you get it, but walk me through your cat's resume, because you emailed it to me, and it is extensive. So just as a performer, not as the on the right side of the house, but as a performer, you've done it nine times,

[3:47] Speaker 2: nine times total. Yes, I've done yeah. So the first time I did the show, I had been in New York for about a year. I went on a small national tour prior to cats, and when I got I went to the audition, and it was for the equity tour had closed when Broadway closed. So when Broadway was closing, they closed the equity tour. And then I went out. I was auditioning for replacements for the second year of the non EC tour. Five, yep, and I was in the audition. It was one of those classic auditions where there were like 60 guys there, and then it turned into 10 guys. Then we had a call back the next day, and I was like, I'm getting this I'm so getting this show, you know? And we, we all exchanged numbers, and we all said, you know, Hey, be in touch if you hear if you hear anything, if you hear anything, and that they all started getting offers, and I didn't get it. And I just was like, I don't understand. How did I not get the show. Fast forward about four weeks later, my my house, phone in my apartment rang, and it was director, choreographer, Richard Stafford, who was kind of like we called him. You know, he just took care of the show for years on Broadway, and he was who I had auditioned for for the tour. They needed an immediate replacement for tumble Brutus. At West Chester Broadway theater, which was the first theater that was doing the show regionally after it had closed on Broadway. I literally met him on 10th and 49th in a car, and drove up to Westchester that night and started learning the show in a conference room, and went on six days later. So six days I learned the show in six days. Yeah, I was, it was, you know, I was 23 so it was like I was a sponge. I absorbed it. And I remember telling the sound guy at West Chester the day that I went on, I said, don't turn my microphone on because I don't know all the words yet. I know the answers, but I don't know the words. So that was my first time with the show, and then I ended up going out on that tour, a tour five as kind of a replacement for the first few months when the tumble Brutus would get injured and have to be out of the show. They brought me in, and then he ended up leaving the tour, and I finished out tour five that that year of the tour.

[5:53] Mike Abrams: So that is, that is crazy. So you basically were, like they were trying to fill it in the tour in year two, like they were starting.

[6:03] Speaker 2: Your former guest, John Michelle, you know, talk, yeah, we were not Tucker, but John Michelle, definitely, we've joined that tour as newbies.

[6:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I, because I've talked to a couple people on year one, I've talked to a lot of people on the later half of the 10 years, I think the tour went on, yeah. And it's, I didn't even place how long it went, for a long time. But, yeah, okay, so you go. So you go in six days, learn the show. In six days, you're not learning anything about tumble bruises story. You're just like trying to not get, you know, be in the right place at the right time and Exactly.

[6:34] Speaker 2: And then on top of it, learning the felony, you know, yeah, dancing, but learning how to be a cat, which, you know, develops over time for me, I end up, you know, I think I ended up being a pretty good cat. And then on tour, I would end up, when any new swings would join us, I would, I would go help them. We'd play in a room and, like, do things about salinity, because that's a huge part of it as well. It's not just the dance, yeah,

[6:54] Mike Abrams: so definitely, it's the dance. It's the Yeah, the singing, which you just said for a first first night. Forget that. Don't worry about, gosh, yeah. And then that. So then you go on tour, and you start as injury replacement, and then you go on tour for a year, right? You do the full year, for a year, and then so that tour, we can come back to that tour, because there's a lot, but I think we've heard a lot about that tour. And then how does what's the rest look like? Because you did it then the at beef and boards was just down the street from where I grew up. You did it in where else, I think, in Texas, maybe in

[7:23] Speaker 2: Houston, Maine, Ohio, everywhere. Yeah. So what happened was I got off of that tour, and, you know, the last thing I wanted to do was continue to audition for cats, because I had just done it for a year. But at the time, that was just this wave of regional theaters doing the show because it had closed on Broadway and, you know, people were just getting getting the show. And I, I knew it. So it's one of those things where if the director has a group of people who already kind of knows the show, you just get a phone call that says, hey, I'm doing it at Wallace street theater. Come do the show with me. So I kind of I lucked out and rode that wave of cats, and was lucky to meet Mark Robin, who I now currently work for. He was the first director to kind of get the rights to do the show differently than Jillian Lynn, Trevor Nunn. He took a story and kind of recreated it. So there's his version of the show that I do, and then there's the original version. So I've done four of the original choreography show, and I've done five versions of Mark Robbins, So

[8:27] Mike Abrams: walk me through what the differences are, what you can kind of speak to on the difference between marks and Jillian's like, is it purely choreography? Is it story? Is it like? How much differs?

[8:38] Speaker 2: I would say the biggest difference is his approach to the story. The choreography is there. You know, you can't really stray too far from this style, because at the same time, you're still choreographing for people who are acting like cats. So there's the salinity aspect is still there. But I would say his approach to the story, I think he looked at it as a whole and took a little bit more of a human approach to telling the story about character. He kind of set the show up so that Grizabella was really good friends with bomb Valley Arena, Jenny, Annie doth, jelly, Lorem and Demeter, and they his whole idea is that syllabub is Grizabella daughter. But we don't know who syllabus father is. It could be Tugger, it could be mucus trap. It could be Alonzo. It could be the cavity. But she the story. His story is that Grizabella left her baby with those girls, her friends. And so the reason why she's rejected when she's coming back, when we at the top of the show is because these girls were like, you can't We can't be friends with you anymore. You You've left us, and we took care of her, and, you know, we haven't told her who you are. So that's the attraction of syllabuv to Grizabella in Mark's story. And I think it's just the wit with the staging. It just kind of comes across as. As a more human story that I think an audience can follow. Yeah,

[10:03] Mike Abrams: well, so that's always been and why this podcast exists is my gripe is when I saw, and, granted, I saw Andy Blake and Bucha choreography, so I saw, like, a not totally different show. But I now have learned from the super fans, like, there's a pretty wide split between people who who don't like that. There was a redempt but that's all I knew. I know the 98 movie because that's all I have access to. And the show I've seen which is not, which is

[10:26] Speaker 2: and is a version of the original. Yeah, yeah. So, So

[10:30] Mike Abrams: Mark's version is more storytelling, which is what my gripe was with, what, even what I saw in Andy's is that there is no storytelling. So I kind of always thought maybe it was Victoria, was Grizzle daughter, and the same type of thing you're saying, but the storyline is coming back for her.

[10:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, that's more the original kind of story and concept. I think Mark Victoria is definitely featured in special, in Mark Robin's version of the show. But the story about, you know, a possible child is more, more, more still above in his version. What

[10:59] Mike Abrams: other backstories does he because, like, I love the character development part of this that seemed loose, and I understand that from, like, the original, where they're just like, like, the joke is, like, it's just cats. You know, it's like cats. Like, that's not really that story development as much as I think the fans have added to it, but it seems like Mark has added some, because to tell it more of a human element, yeah,

[11:19] Speaker 2: I think the other, the other big point in his production is that they're all kind of, they're coming to present themselves to duty to be chosen that night. Yeah, they're all coming to get his votes to go. And then, you know, he uses, I think it's Gus, and it's Jenny, or his two other contestants that are, you know, kind of get the final during the final three with Grizz and the cats as a whole are kind of the jury. They even, kind of, during that portion of the show that we're all kind of lined up, almost like a jury. And you you know, they nod and they say, No, not Gus, not, not Jenny. We want her. She's the one that should go.

[12:01] Mike Abrams: Okay, so there's a crowd. It's crowd VO, and it's between all three. And they, they pick Chris, okay, we'll get into that at the end of that.

[12:10] Speaker 2: And well, he sets the show in different places. So it's been done in an abandoned amusement park. We did it in an abandoned theater. We set it in an event in Ohio. We did it in an abandoned tire factory, so we were all on all these tires everywhere. It's a cool concept. Yeah, one version Isabella was on. She was on the tassel of the curtain and ascended over the audience to the back of the theater. That was her exit to the heavy side. Wow. Yeah. So it's cool. It's, I mean, that's what we go to theater for, is to, you know, why would you want to go see something that you've seen before, take a different approach to it, you know, and show an audience a version that they may not even think they need to see. You know? All right,

[12:52] Mike Abrams: we're gonna spend the end of this me trying to convince you and mark to let me do my version that I want to do. Let's hear, Well, I mean, let's get into it. Now I want, I want to do a version where the audience votes on the Jellicle choice. And since if you stage it regionally for three weeks or even on a tour, you could do this where the the cast like, let the cast go Bell their numbers, and then let the audience vote on who they think was the most fun that night. And I love the idea of it, because it brings in this element of like. It makes the castle competitive to have fun of like, who really sold their performance, but also like, whose friends and family are in the audience tonight. Can they skew? Can they like, stack the vote one day and then just let that person go? Like, I don't think it dramatically changes the story that much, because you still have Grizzle singing memory. She still comes back. She either rejoins the tribe, she can go hang with syllabub for the rest of the year. And whoever goes just goes up on the tire. And then you still do your dressing with cats and you end but I think that'd be so fun to have an Edwin drew style every night, like, who knows? Like, who went out there and delivered he

[14:00] Speaker 2: actually did that when on his approach to chorus line. We actually did that where Zach chose a different person to different people to get the show each night so you didn't know if you were gonna get cast in the show that night. You worked your butt off to get to say, Hey, pick me tonight. I'm gonna be in the final line. I think there's something

[14:17] Mike Abrams: too It doesn't have to be audience. It could be Old Deuteronomy, just making the pick every night. Like, right? It could be, but I think that there's some like, like, like, you said, you go to theater to see a different experience. Like, imagine if all of a sudden, cork pack got picked because they're because their whole family and dance studio came that night. Can

[14:37] Mike Abrams: Like, I love that. Like, I could, I would, I would absolutely love that show. And if I'm a if I'm a casual fan that's just seeing this, never seen the show, I'm still gonna get my memory. I'm still gonna get the part that, like, the only part I knew when I went in was memory. I'm like, I don't know anything else about this show except for their cats, and there's memory at the end and and so I'm like, you still get that. You get your you get your power ballad. The. Close the show, or not even close the show, but to, like, bring that back, and then it's like, oh, it's gonna end. Then there's one more song that kind of confused me to begin with. So you still get the same experience. You just for the like, super fans, you get a little bit more of a fun of, like, why

[15:14] Speaker 2: can't we have a different right? I gotta say, I love it. I love it. Let's do it. Mike, okay, I'm right.

[15:19] Mike Abrams: I mean, I've been my goal. I've already accomplished one goal, which is, I was able to give theories to the US six tour to perform on stage, like, very random, weird, these aren't going to change the show. But, like, Could you play this with this character this day, which is a little offbeat, but my my real goal is to do, like, to help. I can't produce or done. I know nothing about theater. I couldn't choreograph it. I have no idea what goes into this, but I'll come to Lancaster, and if we can do this, and I can help you, just like with some of the let's do this version. I'll help market it. We'll help sell it. It'll be great. That's

[15:54] Speaker 2: why they call this. It's now and forever. You know you're gonna do, yeah, forever. So let's, let's make it. Make it fun.

[15:59] Mike Abrams: I love it. We can do it. I mean, I'll call the people at beef and boards. Let's go there. They're half that crowds there to eat anyway, so they're not going to notice the difference.

[16:07] Speaker 2: Oh, that's the whole other aspect of doing cats and dinner theater. It's a whole nother world.

[16:14] Mike Abrams: So okay, so let's continue. Yeah, let's let's keep going. So you like, Where were all the other places you did it? And now I'm really curious. Like, what were the settings of it? Like you said tire. That's very Tommy Boy in Ohio, if you had tires. So

[16:27] Speaker 2: that first time, when I went to that audition, I saw, I saw Mark call for beef and boards, right? And I got off of tour, and I almost didn't go. It was in the morning. I was like, I don't want to go do I don't want to do cats. I just, I just did it for a year, but I had heard his concept in that there was a cool production that he did at the Marriott in Chicago. So I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna go and see what his choreography is like, and, you know, use it as a dance class. So I went, and I'd never met him before. I had never auditioned for him before. I just was like, the way the man runs a room was just so amazingly professional and warm and welcoming that I just, I, by the end of that audition, I was like, I don't get this. I'm going to be really pissed off, because I really want to work with this guy. Yeah, and that was my first time at beef and boards. Was in 2003 2000 like, right over the right at the end of the year. So, yeah, I had never worked with him. I had never, like, done that. It was, it was hard, because it was kind of taking what I had learned and was, like embedded in my brain of what the show was, and letting it kind of go and just try to absorb what he was.

[17:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's a tweet. It's like a variation, right?

[17:33] Speaker 2: And at the same time, on his end, I think it was, you know, him going, oh, gosh, I have it was myself and Jean Michel and Tucker Ty were in that production with him, that were from an original that we were the only ones that had done the original show before in that cast. So he, I think he was kind of looking at us to be like, Are you guys okay with this, if we do this, and we're i We, at one point, we all three, were just like, we are here for you. We want to do your production. Let that go. Let us be here and do I love

[17:58] Mike Abrams: it? I don't know they did. Neither of them mentioned it. I've got Indiana stuff directly behind me, and neither of them mentioned that they did beef and borns in Indianapolis, so

[18:06] Speaker 2: I don't wait. Tucker didn't do in. Tucker. Tucker did a production with him somewhere else first. Okay, Michelle and I were in that production. And another person from tour, Adam Walters, was in that production. Okay, he was an Alonzo from tour.

[18:20] Mike Abrams: So what was your setting in at Beaver boards? Was it that first

[18:25] Speaker 2: time it was an abandoned theater? So the like, they built a fake proscenium that was sideways and oversized. We could climb up over it and lay on top of the proscenium. There was a fake curtain with the tassel. There was like a spiral staircase that looked like it would have been backstage. Yeah, and that this stage comes out there, so yeah,

[18:46] Mike Abrams: that's where the that's where the buffet is before the show. That's where

[18:49] Speaker 2: the buffet is. And, you know, sometimes some cats, you know, put their hands on tables and take people's napkins. And it was, it was very interactive. And we were all throughout the theater, in the aisles, dancing. And I did love that portion. And that part of being at Beacon boards is you can go out in the audience.

[19:06] Mike Abrams: Is this where Grizz went on the tassel across, because there is a little spot in that corner, yeah. So she flew over,

[19:12] Speaker 2: went up and flew all over the all over the audience and the theater. That

[19:18] Mike Abrams: is phenomenal. I never saw, I never saw it in Indiana. I know my sister saw it, but it would have been like years before you even did it early kid,

[19:29] Speaker 2: right? No, I don't, I don't remember, or I don't think I've ever heard of them doing it prior to when we did it in 2004

[19:35] Mike Abrams: just Alan, maybe, maybe that was the one that that still would be too the way, at least it was told to me when I started doing this, and my mom's like, yeah, I took, I took your sister, not you to beef and boards years ago, but she made it seem like my sister's like, five or six, which would have not, which would have been 90s. But okay, so you do beef and boards, you do, like, what's the other what's the outdoor theater? You did a you. Oh, that's stars the muni. I did not

[20:02] Speaker 2: do the production at the muni. That's actually outside theater. Under the Stars is actually an indoor theater, okay, but the way that the theater is built, it hasn't okay. You know,

[20:12] Mike Abrams: misnamed

[20:14] Speaker 2: that show there. I did Mark's version, but we did it on the original, the original set. So that was also weird to do his show on the original set, because my brain would then click into Oh, at this part, I usually run up and jump on the tire, run up and get up on the oven. And that's not, I'm not that character in this play right now.

[20:33] Mike Abrams: You know, yeah, oh, because were you playing as a different you? Were you mccavity? Then

[20:38] Speaker 2: I usually play mccavity for Mark Robin in that production. I've covered Tugger for him. Skimble in the original. Who else have I done? I think that's it. I'm just too tall to be a mistoolies. And yeah, I was, yeah, I played those characters Ohio at carousel Dinner Theater, which is no longer there, that was the abandoned tire factory. So if the tire stone was a sponsor, and they literally, there were, like, big monster truck tires all over the place, a lot of we they built these catwalks that went over the audience there, so we could crawl on those above the audience and hang off of them. And some of them were low enough that we could, you know, flip off of them and do things. It was always, every time I did the show, it wasn't, it didn't feel like I was gonna go do cat again, like I ran to it, because it was an adventure. It was something that I could exercise my acting muscles and also get a really great workout. Thanks for

[21:41] Mike Abrams: sure. Okay, I want where were the other so, you said so tire factory theater. Anybody anywhere else? Weird. Where's the amusement park? He

[21:51] Speaker 2: did the amusement park that was his original concept at the American Shire in Chicago. And I think he did that at two other theaters that I wasn't a part of those productions. I think those are all the places that he set the show.

[22:05] Mike Abrams: What other what other story? Not changes, but like, what's the other different versions of his story? Like you said, there's the syllab and grisabelle connection. There's the friends with the the bomb and jelly and Jenny. Is there any other kind of like, I think the relationships he like plays

[22:23] Speaker 2: the broadest. Those are the biggest concepts for him. Tugger is definitely more of a dancer track in his show than the original dancer. Dancer like toe touches and something, okay, wow as well. And he's got relationships, for sure, with bomb Valley Arena in Mark's production, like they are there. And what about

[22:44] Mike Abrams: most affiliates? Is there? That relationship

[22:46] Speaker 2: Mr. Police is pretty similar to how he is in the original production. The relationship with, you know, Victoria is there?

[22:59] Mike Abrams: I'm trying to think of other is the demeanor Macavity still big, the demeanor

[23:04] Speaker 2: Macavity connection is still there, yes, and I'm thinking of other, I think that's Oh, he also he has at the end of the first act of his show, for little memory, Grizabella comes face to face with a younger version of herself. So there's a younger, more glamorous character that shows up and almost does a mirror, like a mirrored dance with

[23:32] Mike Abrams: her interesting who performs that, though, normally, is it like that? It's, I

[23:35] Speaker 2: think, syllabub. Syllab leaves the ball early to go do kind of a change, and comes out in a younger, more glamorous look of Grizabella. And they do this mirrored kind of movement and dance where Grizabella sees herself, and then it's a memory for her, and then she fades away, and that's how a little memory kind of starts for her at the end of the act. Wow, yeah. So, yeah. So a

[23:57] Mike Abrams: couple minor, you know, like, these are minor changes, but they're really interesting because I, again, I only know Andy's version, like, really, and they're, those are a lot of similarities to it. I think they just kind of cut out some of the stuff that was borderline offensive or racially intensive in current times. But, you know, the main change from Andy was dates and, like, I couldn't tell you the first difference about those things, but story wise, it felt fairly similar.

[24:23] Speaker 2: Yes, that's, I think the biggest difference in Andy's was the does the choreography, not such a story change.

[24:30] Mike Abrams: I love it. So marks went a little story change. I mean, this is, this is great. This is like, my dream. I didn't, you know, anytime I hear that there's because I these are the questions I ask, which is, like, I love that there was more thought put into it, because a lot of times, like I were, you know, we recently, by the time this airs, have gone to broadwaycon, and we were at Broadway con, were debating some of these, like, what I would call split moments of what were we able to like? I sparked a little online controversy with the cats fans, because. I said, I made a joke about bomb and demeanor, being having sexual energy. And someone was like, they are sisters, but are they? I was like,

[25:09] Speaker 2: I mean, they are and I was like, from what they went, from the story, because

[25:13] Mike Abrams: I don't know. So I threw it up online, and I got a near 5050, split of answers of are they sisters? Are they friends? And what was fascinating is the people who have done the most recent tour, or that were in any version of Andy, who was a lot of my guests who voted on that, because that creeps more on social media. They all voted friends. But my votes were almost split 5050, so there are so many of those things that exist in this world where it's like, it could be, it could not be. And I love that. Mark's version is answering some of those like, we're gonna play into this, even

[25:43] Speaker 2: on the original tour. I don't think I ever looked at those two characters as sisters. They were always friends. For me, definitely,

[25:51] Mike Abrams: that's what my answer was. The friends on that

[25:53] Speaker 2: one and getting online hate as well. I don't know. I

[25:57] Mike Abrams: mean, it's not hate, because the cats fans are so they're so bad, like, they're so pleasant. Like, yes, they disagree with you, but they're like, they're just happy that someone's even talking about this, in some cases, because there's not a lot of content out there. Cats

[26:10] Speaker 2: fans are amazing. We used to have them at the stage doors on tour. They would be dressed, and some of their costumes sometimes were just incredible. And they would make us the most lovely gifts. Like, we would get these beautiful gifts, and they would, it's so crazy because when we were on tour, it was right when a lot of online stuff was starting. It was, you know, the new millennium, and we would there was, like, a blog that we would all like each week, we'd be like, oh gosh, what they say about us this week. Or sometimes they would be at our stage doors and then almost verbatim, type out conversations that they had that we were having with them at the stage door, and that's what we get posted that week. It was, it was cool, but also a little strange.

[26:51] Speaker 2: the show early. It means so much to so many people that you know you it's 5050, like you said, people either love, love, love, love it, or they hated, hated, hated, hated. I I never really thought I loved watching the show. I love doing the show. It is like nothing I've ever done in my life or will ever do. Even to this day watching it, I'm still kind of like, it's fine, it's good, but it's so much you get. I've gotten so much more out of it by participating in it, and the tribal feeling you get by by being on stage with those people. It's the intimacy of it, the connection you have without saying speaking a word to anyone else. You know, it's like nothing I've ever, ever done before.

[27:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you know, I because I don't know, people ask me all the time, because it's podcasts. Like, if I'm a super fan of the show, and like, I'm not even sure how I feel about the show, but what I like about it is the world it created, and the open opportunity it has for this, like, deep, kind of, like, comical analysis of the characters like that, to me, is fascinating that there is no answer. Like, I love that part about this, because it's, it's so open ended. But to your point, like, I mean, I've watched it. I watched it on the most recent US tour, and I had a blast, because I talked, but I also talked to them the day before, and got to kind of meet the actors and, yeah, and gave them things that I was like, looking for. And I was like, Okay, great. And then I went on, I've only seen it live four times. Oh, wow. And they were the first time I saw it in 2016 a year, exactly a year later, a friend wanted to come. And then I saw it back to back days when I went to do the video with the 2000 or the sixth, the most recent, the sixth tour in DC, I saw it back to back days. I saw the night when they did it, and then I just happened to be filming with them before their show. So I was like, wow, I might as well just stay here before I take the train back to New York. And so that's it, though, and I've seen it on the, you know, the 1998 movie on YouTube a couple times or versions clips of it. But I've yet to find anybody who's been able to articulate why they hate it. So everyone who says that they love or hate it, the love they have a real reason, the hate they're just like, yeah, I didn't really like it.

[29:00] Speaker 2: You're exactly right. Mike, that's what I've encountered, too. They can't explain to you why they hate it. They just tell you that they don't like it, you know, yeah,

[29:07] Mike Abrams: which is which is fine. It's theater. There's plenty of things where I've walked down and just been like, Yeah, that wasn't for me. I get it. I'm sure some people love it. That just wasn't for me. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to pivot because I want to talk about casting, because you are, like, working in casting, and this is a show that, like, it can have some variations. And I think the one that I've noticed over the years is the grizzabellas have gotten younger. And I don't know if that's just a byproduct of, like, the tours I've seen recently are just that they're looking for younger. But when you like, what does that casting say? What's it like being on that side of the table, having done it so many times, on the other side of the table,

[29:45] Speaker 2: I will casting. I mean, in general, it's, there's so many things that come into play. You know, if you have, if you've already cast your monkeys trap, because it's a friend of yours, you know that's worked for you for a long time, and you know that you want to, that's your your first cast. Thing is Monkey strap, and he's a specific type. You're going to start to cast around that. You're going to find people who sing with that. I think I'd mentioned this too in our earlier conversations before the podcast. You know, I think the original show has a very specific way of casting. You know, the bombs are always, you know, tall, thin, lanky girls, the Cassandras are in that same world. The Victorias are petite. And the mistos have to be like, I think under five, seven or something like that. The Alan, those have to be tall. The cavities have to be tall. There's a very specific body types for the original show, working with Mark and pivoting and kind of changing things up. It's not so specific where it's more about who's we actually taking a lot of the the actors acting into play, casting it, because there is a lot of human emoting in Mark's version. You, I guess, to actually answer your question, casting it, obviously it's a huge dance show and a huge singing show, which I don't think people realize how hard of a sing the show is actually as well. So you have to find triple threats. You have to find actors who can dance really well, who can sing really well, and can act, because at the end of the day it, yes, you can take the dance from it, you can take the singing from it, but it's one of the one of the one of the most amazing acting challenges I've ever had in my life. So to find a good combination of all of that, and then at the end of the day, you also want to cast kind, good humans, you know, you want to create a group that's going to make that show work. The show is all about relationships and how you interact with one another, physically and emotionally. So you know that that's for me. That's what, uh, casting that show is like for me.

[31:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting to hear say that, because there's some where there is, like, some, a lot of precedent for this. So there is the like, it's 40 plus years people know they have some expectation that it can't be so far off, yeah, that it becomes kind of strange. But at the same time, there's, like, some positive evolution of, like, body type. So, you know, it's like, let's be more body positive. And like, in the have a lot of these things where, if the person is talented and capable of doing the number and a vision, like, why does that like, yeah, does this bomb have to be that tall, or does this have to happen? So I love that. There is some evolution there. And, and you're right, it is a huge like, there's booth singers, like, that's something that doesn't happen in most shows, right? And, gosh,

[32:30] Speaker 2: no, on tour, all of our swings were they sung in the booth? There were six or seven of them at a time, you know? Yeah. I want to go back to your discussion about the grizzabellas too, but I did want to say that on tour we, you know, there's so much injury, there's it happens in the show that I think I remember our stage manager coming on the call one day before a half hour, saying that it was the first time that we had our entire playing company in like 76 days like we hadn't done The show in 76 days without swings on. And sometimes these swings, I mean, I'm raising my hands to the swings of the world, because you're unsung heroes. They would come on mid show. We tell them swing that swing bitches is what we call them. We would all if we anyone else that wasn't on as a swing. If you had to go on mid show, you would rush to them and help them get their makeup on, help them get their unitard on, get their mic on, get them ready to go on. There were times on stage where, like I did the couple's minuet in the in the poem before the ball, during the ball, I forget, with the Cassandra. And I didn't realize that the from the time I had seen her before, like a couple minutes before on stage, to the time I got to her at couples Inuit. It was a different actor, because the swing had come on between something had happened to her. So yay to the swings. But the Grizabella question, I don't know why that is happening, or if it's I mean, if you look back at like Betty Buckley, she's an older woman now in 2023 but she was a fairly young woman, I think, when she originated the role. So she wasn't, you know, she wasn't too old when she did it. I've had all over ranges with my grizzes in all the nights I've done it. Some of them have been very young, some of them on the older side. I tend me personally. I like a more seasoned actress playing the part. It just seems it's better for me story wise, because she doesn't necessarily have to dance. You don't have to put her as a double in the first, you know, the first number, you can fill that out. It's not necessary. So I tend to like grizzabellas, who are a little more seasoned in their careers. I think it just brings way more depth to the story.

[34:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they don't. I know that they like now, a lot of times they dance in the opening number as baby Grizz, and they to me for Grizabella. I think all I would care about is, can they, can I sing? Can I sing? Remember,

[34:50] Speaker 2: you're not an act, and can they work that costume? And I got to do the show in Houston with Linda balgoord, who closed Grizabella on Broadway. And. And just watching her work, I mean that I think when I did it there, I'd done it that was like my fifth or sixth time doing the show. I got to do with Ken Page, who was the original duo, which all was also so amazing. And I designed the makeup at that production. So handing both of them their makeup plots to say, hey, here's here's what I have for you. Please don't feel that you need to do this, and then watching them incorporate my design into their makeup throughout the run, and just watching their professionalism and approach to the show, and having such knowledge and history with it was I get Seales even talking about it right now. This is great experience as an actor. Yeah, that's,

[35:39] Mike Abrams: yeah, can only imagine. So fascinating. I The younger Grizz, I think is more of a byproduct of the most recent towards non equity. I think, like you just run into a little bit more of that. So it's, I don't know how much I mean, this is just me as a guest, guessing as someone who's watched this for the past now, three and a half, four years, whatever, I started really kind of digging into this in 2019 is, I think it's just more of a byproduct of the scenario, and not a choice, not like, like, like, we probably like, they probably went through the auditions, and the best real option just happened to be younger, and then that's where they did it. And I think you saw that with a couple other too, because, like, Jenny started to get young, right? The 2016 Broadway Jennys are both, were both young in my 20s, yeah, yeah. And they were phenomenal tap dancers and just performers. But they're not this, like, old motherly kind of thing that you would expect from there. So I just

[36:37] Speaker 2: know we hide so much behind your the makeup, you still see a young person, even though you have makeup on. I agree with you. I think the casting, I think skewing younger was probably because a lot of the non non union touring back in, you know, before the Broadway revival happened, and you just, you know, there are less older actors that are non union, you know, yeah.

[36:59] Mike Abrams: Now, before we go to our rapid fire, I gotta ask you about spike. So you got to perform a spike. I We have now, by the time this has come out, the spike story has been out for the world to hear. But I'm fascinated by the whole idea, because it is, it's clearly a cost savings measure, like it was just like, let's let's not have to make five different unitards. Let's make one and give the same different five different pairs of shoes, exactly. But I love that you guys all named and almost gave spike a story. So does Mark have a spike with that? Does Mark's version have a spike? Well, Tucker

[37:31] Speaker 2: has done Mark's version and created his he's played pounceable, and I think he was just awfully in a production. He brings spike to all the shows he does. So Tucker, oh my gosh, there were mornings we would do like, have matinees, and you know, it would be the end of an eight show week, and Tucker would be on that day, as, you know, a split track, and was going to be spike, and he'd be getting his costume on. And you know, it was his first time doing the show that week, and the rest of us had been doing it, had it had it was our eighth show. We were ready for the day off, and Tucker comes on stage, and it's just messing with you. And I think John Michelle touched on we were kittens, you know, Temple Brutus, pounceable, syllabub, Miss doe, Rumble teaser, that we're all kittens. So like, we're on the floor the whole time, on our hands and knees, and Tucker would just come over as spike and just like, barrel will you and just roll you over. And I'd like, you can't say, Tucker, get the hell off of me right now. Instead, I would just as total Brutus. I would just get my like, you know, pounce, you know, piss off mode. He was so much fun to play with. And, you know, you never knew what you were gonna get with spike on stage. So, yeah, it's spike now and forever. I

[38:42] Mike Abrams: just it's such a fascinating piece of the show that I knew nothing about because it was created by byproduct. But also it's like, this unique, like, there's almost a backstory for spike.

[38:52] Speaker 2: I would also love to know if, I mean, obviously we have it Tucker and John, Michelle and I have not done cats in a long time at this point. But I want, I would wonder if that story or that character got passed down and is still kind of, you know, an iteration of Spike is still happening in any productions that are going on. It's,

[39:10] Mike Abrams: I have not heard it. I mean, at this point, I've talked to 25 I think production, different productions, which is, and I group all regional as what so I'm just kind of regional as just all the different variations of regional one, and it's still like, 25 ish productions. I've not, I never heard spike until Michelle. I just just never come up. And then I was fascinated, and that's why media was like, I gotta tuck the Tucker, because it's just like, and it's so funny, because it's like, I can just imagine being like, Yeah, we don't want like, we don't want to pay for this. Here's one costume go, because at the end of the day, nobody's gonna know the name difference for 99% of the crowd, right? And the crowd that is gonna know it is the one that's in the early infancies of the internet, writing the blog about it anyway, exactly, but it doesn't exist. Based on the cats Wikipedia page, which has kind of been my source of truth, not source of truth, but, like, it's a pretty well documented of, like, a lot of very weird, nuanced things that get credited are in there, and spike is not. So I need to add him. One day,

[40:13] Speaker 2: he's out, he's out to the world. Now we've released him to the world. It's a testament to Tucker, to his with his of his talents, because Tucker is a fantastic dancer. He could sing, he's a tumbler. He was just, like, the most glorious swing that we could have asked for. And to then bring that skill set and, you know, and make our lives so amazingly awesome on stage was awesome. I

[40:38] Mike Abrams: just, I loved, like, the one thing he said that really kind of blew my mind was that, like, I had to look down to see what shoes I was wearing, to see who I was, because that was, like, you're just in this one costume for five different cats, and he's like, All right, that's like, that was also what you would know, like, you wouldn't know who he is. And, like, where he's supposed to be, supposed

[41:02] Mike Abrams: so strange of a thing, but that would be, you know, that would be another thing like, can we imagine if we got spike at the vote one night, get the vote, I would ring, spike a vote, and then he'd be, he'd be hanging on the curtain or the tire, or whatever it is,

[41:26] Mike Abrams: I the visual of, I mean, I was, I went to beef and boards recently. I took, we took my niece, since he sounded music when I was there, and it was like, right when it reopened from COVID, and so, like, the first time that anybody had had a buffet in ages and and and I hadn't been in there since I was a kid, and I didn't go much like my my mom's music teacher, like, we're a family that went to the traveling shows, like, like the touring stuff that comes to Indiana. But like, we were growing up, I didn't go to a ton. It was more like Lion King comes, let's go, you know, like, not every single thing at beef awards, but I was just in there so recently that, like, I have this very visual of exactly where he went, or, I guess Grizabella went over into this like little nook on the other side where there's, like the ensemble sands when they're not on at times. Yeah, and flying over all these Hoosiers who just stuff their face with food is such a visual I can only imagine. Yeah.

[42:20] Speaker 2: I mean, that's I did it again there in 2014 and that's the last time I did the show. That's the last time I've done cats was in 2014 and it has been eight years since the time I had done it prior to that. So there was a break where I didn't do the show. And when I when I was asked to come back and do it there, I had to think about it. Because, you know, I was like, oh gosh, is my can my body still do this? Yeah, still able to do this? And it was a rude awakening on the first day of rehearsal. And then I remember, I distinctly remember, the last night of the show, during little memory, or no during big memory, listening to our Grizz sing the little memory that night, going, having that moment, saying, I think this is it. I think this is this is it. I don't think I'm going to do it again. This is your, yeah, it was my, it was almost my heavy side layer moment. But now, as in the position I'm in now, I'm hoping that we can, we can, you know, present the show here at the Fulton at some point, because it's never been done here, and I don't know if you've ever been in our theater here, but it is a National Historic Landmark, and it is one of the most beautiful theaters you'll ever set foot in. So to do a show of that, that grandeur in in the space and and be part of it in a different way, yeah, artistically, you know, guide it with with Mark, would be just an amazing

[43:39] Mike Abrams: so have you thought, if you get a green light, what's your setting like? Is there some historical landmark that you got to put in there for

[43:47] Speaker 2: giveaway? All of it, we got to keep some surprises. Okay, I will say that there is the discussions of what we will do have already begun, and it will it will be epic, amazing.

[43:59] Mike Abrams: Well, I hope you get the the ability to do it, and when you do there's nothing more than I would like to do, than to come to rehearsal, yeah, and you do the story, when you do the story day, and you talk through, I want to just be there and apply the wall, or to be able to just give like, Hey, here's let me tell you what a bunch of other people have said, because I know that there was A regional production recently in Atlanta, and I've talked to some people in that cast, and they use the podcast as a way to hear how other people have approached their character. So it's like, I'm almost created like, I feel like I'm documenting history of like, here is how this mustafalies thought about being Mr. Police in this production, and how they handled it in the west end for this Victoria, and vice versa. So it's, I think

[44:44] Speaker 2: that's one of the best things about the show, if you're if you're starting from scratch to set it with a new company, is to take, take a portion of rehearsal very early on and just say, Hey everybody, take, take the next day or so and really think about your who you are in this play and where we. Your connections are, and that just doing that and sharing that with the rest of the actors just sets you up for success. Because, you know your art, you're like, Oh, I never thought about that story. Let's see how we can work and make that come so the audience even sees that story. I love it. I love it shows that I don't think they had any idea what it was going to do or be, and it's just become this, you know, phenomenon. There's an interview, I think, how Prince had early on, where he just said, Everyone kept asking me, what is it about? What is it about? And he said, it's about cats, just

[45:32] Mike Abrams: cats. Yeah, it's just cats. It's way more. And we've uncovered that. Yeah, okay, we gotta do some rapid fire. If you could go on one night for any cat, whether you know you've done it before, you could fit like if it's male female, physically could do it. Who would you want to go on us for one night? Oh, there's a Bella Princess track. Just come out in 15 minutes. I want to be

[45:55] Speaker 2: able to stand there in some fancy heels, in a fabulous dress, and just sing memory

[46:03] Mike Abrams: hands down. Who are your favorite and least favorite characters in

[46:08] Speaker 2: the show? Oh gosh, doing it or or watching it either. I think I think I'd have to say my favorite characters are probably Mongo Jerry and Victoria.

[46:21] Mike Abrams: Okay, what about his favorite which cats? Bug you cast

[46:24] Speaker 2: that? Bug me? Plato. I never play though. Plato, I never understood that. I guess it's there for because he usually play do then leaves and turns into a cavity. So he's there as a I just never really understood that character. I don't necessarily hate it. I just didn't really ever, yeah,

[46:44] Mike Abrams: I that was one. I didn't realize how much more time the Play Doh Macavity track is in Plato than in Macavity. So it's kind of one that I've dug into recently a little bit. But I think this might be the episode after you. So I'm like, I don't know if it's coming out. I think

[46:58] Speaker 2: in the original show he would come on for he'd still be Plato at the top of the second act. And then when, when Gus comes out, he would leave and go start the makeup change to, I just never understood it's I never had a huge relationship with the character. Okay, so I'd say that, Okay,

[47:16] Mike Abrams: favorite song from the show.

[47:17] Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I think, I think the moments of happiness maybe, or, I mean, obviously memories a beautiful song, but that's just the cliche answer. I think I loved, I loved, I It's so crazy to say, but I think doing that song to just sit there still and look out and just place where you're at in that moment of the show, to have the old dude sing that and just that was always a really cool moment. I think, yeah, the show is moments of happiness.

[47:50] Mike Abrams: My fun one is, if one cat was going to be a casting director who would be the best at it,

[47:55] Speaker 2: if one cat was going to be a casting director who would be the best at it, I have to say myself, right? Well, no, I

[48:03] Mike Abrams: mean, like character, like, which, which personality of one of the characters would be,

[48:11] Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with, probably, Cassandra. Oh, okay, Cassandra, she's just so regal and it has, that has, I think she has a check on everybody in the show. I was thinking

[48:24] Mike Abrams: monk for the same reason, yeah, but, but not like Cassandra's a good answer.

[48:29] Speaker 2: Such a cool character. I think I'd want to play her for one day too. Okay, yeah,

[48:35] Mike Abrams: okay. Million dollar question. You know, you've done this many times. I want to hear you, Joey, if you are picking, if you're Old Deuteronomy for the day, and you get to choose a Jellicle choice, who are you choosing? And why? Oh,

[48:48] Speaker 2: gosh, am I choosing? And why? And you're gonna ask me this too. It's

[48:53] Mike Abrams: the it's the title of the

[48:55] Speaker 2: show. I honestly don't think the wrong cat died. I think Isabella, yeah, I'm sorry. I do

[49:03] Mike Abrams: okay. Give me your Give me your rationale. I've had a good run of non grisabelle choices. So this is like, all right, it's time.

[49:10] Speaker 2: I think the story is set up that way. From the beginning, she's this, you know, figure that is this, you she has the biggest arc of any of them. So she comes, she starts in one place and ends in another. And I think the redemption just, it's the it's the natural progression. So let

[49:27] Mike Abrams: me ask you this from Mark's lens here of now, syllabs daughter, I'm syllable, I all of a sudden I I'm the one that accepts my mom back to the tribe, and we're immediately going to kill her. Like, do I not want a year with her? Like, why can't she go next year? I guess

[49:47] Speaker 2: you're right. Then, I guess you're right, yeah, then maybe, then, if I had to pick a second choice, I would say, then Gus, then Gus should go, okay,

[49:54] Mike Abrams: so you're picking Gus over Jenny, between your trio. Oh, yes, yes, but you're still picking grace.

[49:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, even in Marx, I think, I think the relationship is solidified that throughout the entire production of their relationship. And I think she knows syllabu knows she's going to be left in good hands. And I feel, I also feel that Grizz is, I don't know that she's necessarily dying, but she's being re, recreate, reincarnated, and she she may come back, and she may come back as a kitten the next season to play with. So above the nose, yeah,

[50:23] Mike Abrams: I get the story. It's been around for 40 years. Like, it makes sense, it's been successful. Like, I can't really argue it that much, right? I just have really struggled with, if I'm looking at best performances and doing a voting American Idol style or X Factor style, I probably wouldn't pick memory. I mean, memory is great and it's belted, it's super powerful, and like it would be, it would be a show closer with, you know, the very touching package video before she comes on stage, you know. But I probably would be combining things that I had more entertainment with, which was like mango Jared Rupp teaser, or the Tugger Mustafa's numbers, or something like that, more upbeat, interesting ones. So that was my original joke.

[51:05] Speaker 2: I got it. Yeah. I think if you look at, you know, the way you said, we were talking about casting, and now it's skewing younger, originally, those characters that are kind of the ones that are being have the possibility to go are the ones that are in their latter years, and you know that they would be sent to the heavy side layer. So, yeah, so

[51:21] Mike Abrams: that's why, that's why my my actual answer is Gus this year, Grizzle next year. I could go with that. I could, I could get about that. I will mark your answer down as well, because I did keep track. And she's, she's still holding a slight edge on Gus, but she is not half the votes. Okay, I don't know if I'm slowly changing people's minds, or if I just hit a chord, struck a chord with everybody when I came up with this idea. It's

[51:49] Mike Abrams: is definitely something that most people don't think about, that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. But love it. I'm so grateful for it. It's well, this has been awesome, amazing. How can people stay in touch with you and the theater and everything you're working on?

[52:04] Speaker 2: Um, me, I'm an Instagramer. So at Joey tumble, J, o, e, y, t, u, M, B, L, E, that that name was given to me by Mr. Ryan Jackson on tour because I was tumble Rudy, and he just called me Joey tumble. So you can find me at there, and the fulton.org is anything you want to know about where I work and what I do here at the Fulton awesome.

[52:23] Mike Abrams: We'll link that in there, and then hopefully one day, you are doing the show and I will be taking a trip down to Lancaster and joining you to see what we could do. I can't wait. Well, this has been so so fun. So thanks for being here, guys. Thank you very much, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cast atrophied to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tik, Tok and threads at the wrong cat diet or check our website.