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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. Nine, welcome to

[0:28] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown, the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She was Victoria on the US national tour for multiple times. So welcome. Natasha Davidson, thank you for joining

[0:39] Speaker 2: me. Well, I am actually delighted to be here and talk about cats being in the national tour for was a really long time ago, so I haven't had the opportunity to discuss it for a while, but it was a really big part of my life, life back then, and it was just a great experience for me.

[0:58] Mike Abrams: I'm gonna make you the dig back into that vault and think back of a lot of moments that we probably have not reminisced on in a long time, which is what makes this really fun. Hopefully,

[1:06] Speaker 2: my memory. Pun intended. So let's

[1:10] Mike Abrams: start at the very beginning, because I find this I always love this question, especially for people that predate the 1998 movie, because almost everybody I talked to that's was currently on tour. The most recent tour, it's like, oh, I watched the VHS and I was obsessed with it, but you were on tour before that movie came out. So I always love to hear, what was your first experience with cats? When did you see it first? When did you learn about it? Like, what did you know before tour?

[1:35] Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was living in Boston at the time. I had always danced and sang and had a really strong background and foundation, foundation and dance, you know, as a little girl taking ballet and but in college, I studied journalism, and I went into television journalism and was a producer in Boston at the time that cats was a, you know, was a huge hit, first in London and then in New York. So I knew about it, because I always was a huge fan of musical theater, loved musical theater, always trying to find ways to engage with musical theater. And so I saw the first national tour of cats in Boston, and that was the first time I saw the show. And I was I just loved it. And of course, fell in love with the character that I eventually played, and that was actually about a year before I ended up getting the role. So it was kind of interesting that someone had told me, you know, in a year, you actually will be playing a role in this show.

[2:32] Mike Abrams: So when you were watching it that first time, you're a producer, yes, and you're also but you also danced growing up, were you watching it from the lens of a performer, or from the lens of a producer? Like, did you go in and say, Oh, here's how I could do this for that, or here's how I would love to dance the the you know, solo number for Victoria, purely

[2:51] Speaker 2: from the position of a of an audience member and a performer, very attracted it to the, you know, the production as a dancer, because, you know, the skills that I had as a dancer, you get to have this individual beautiful part that that character in particular has quite a few special solo moments. And so I was really drawn to it just watching the performance and wow, I would love to have the opportunity to to dance that choreography and play that role.

[3:19] Mike Abrams: So as a dancer, I do also think it's it's fascinating, because I'm not a dancer, I'm not a singer. So I watched the first time I saw it, which was 2016 from a story perspective, and I think that's why we're here today. Did you catch most of the story? Or were you more enthralled with the choreography when I was watching it the first time? Yeah, the first time you saw it, I don't think

[3:39] Speaker 2: anybody gets the story. I mean, honestly, I know that they, you know, there's always a discussion when a new company is put together. I was a replacement in the the tour that I joined, so I didn't have that, you know, full company meeting where they take you through what the narrative is that they've built, you know, within the company. But no, I don't think anybody gets it. I think it's more for the performers to tell you honest truth, not rather than it being sort of an explicit journey. I mean, he Andrew Lloyd Webber took TS Eliot's poems, which are Victorian era poems with the facade of cats. But it's really about, you know, human beings and the human experience. And then Jillian Lynn came in and, frankly, beautifully and brilliantly created movement and choreography to support those poems and the music, which was, you know, a combination of musical theater music and rock and roll and stint and it was really revolutionary for its time. I wish you could have seen it back then, like these original versions, because it was so different. You didn't have anything like that. It was immersive. I'm not a theater historian, but cats really was one of the first that took that set fully. Into the audience. The cast was roaming around the audience, you know, they got to touch and see the cats, you know, up close, and the way that they lit it, the kind of music, the narrative, which was not clear. It was more atmospheric and character driven than specific story, plot driven. That was really a new and exciting kind of theater back then. Yeah,

[5:24] Mike Abrams: it's so fascinating. I like, I do wish I could go sit in the 80s and see kind of like the early piece of it, because it's modern theater so different. And there's a lot of discourse about that now, about what's selling and what's not and what's creative, what's new. It's just such a different time. And I think it's also just a different era. You know, you don't have tick tock and all these other things you other

[5:44] Speaker 2: things people were saying, it was this whole different kind of theater experience, really, in every way, from the costumes to the sort of source material to the way that they executed it. And so I think that, you know, people were really in awe back then, because in some ways, it's a very, you know, bizarre, bizarre kind of thing. But I think what they did so brilliantly back then was to bring all of those elements together, the music, the poems, the characters, the costumes, the set, the lighting, into this really unusual and powerful experience for its time.

[6:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, and it's sustained. I mean, I think that's the other thing that's like, because it was so revolutionary at the time, it's now 40 plus years later, that it's still going in very similar capacity. But I want you to take me to the audition process and also how you ended up as the replacement, because that is a really big part of that you that you mentioned you missed, which is that, like, here's the story, here's the validity school, here's that you come in and you kind of get thrown right in. Yeah, so I'd love to hear a little bit about how you landed the show, but then also, how did you figure out the character development when you're not getting that moment in the rehearsal process.

[7:02] Speaker 2: Well, I think that I'm a little bit have a little bit of a unique experience, maybe, as compared to some of the newer, recent productions or cast members coming into those shows. And that, again, it was still a first class full equity national tour that was given the time for casting and the time to rehearsal. There was no go in in a week. Kind of thing. You had the full I can't remember how many weeks we got. It was either three or four weeks, but it was a substantial amount of time to go through all of those elements. The other thing that I had the benefit of was that this fourth national tour, which eventually became the only national tour was populated mostly by cast members from the Los Angeles company, which ran, I think, around two years. And they learned the show from Jillian Lynn and the original director, choreographer, Andrew Lloyd Webber. They were all a part of that company, so I had the benefit of hearing what they learned by learning the show from the people that originally created it. It wasn't, you know, 10 steps removed. It was so I heard what Jillian said specifically about my character and how I was to dance the solo. And, you know, Andrew Lloyd Webber, actually, at that time, still came out and visited our company. So, you know, I also had the benefit of talking to him about the show and my character. And I don't know if younger companies have that opportunity, but it was still pretty close to the core original creators.

[8:33] Mike Abrams: Okay, so now, what did they tell you? What is the Victoria backstory that you heard directly from the original people.

[8:42] Speaker 2: What I heard was this that I wrote it down so I could remember how amazing from the lips of Jillian limbs, what she said about Victoria is that she is a pulsating plum ready to be picked.

[8:55] Mike Abrams: Pulsating plum ready. Wow. But that fascinates me that you get that line and you've got to build your whole character arc off of that.

[9:04] Speaker 2: It was enough. That's all. You totally understood it. I mean, I think that they really, you know, something that I I don't know how much is infused into, you know, other companies, but I know that when they talk to us about casting and the different characters, they were really focused on the uniqueness of the inner life of each character and how that manifested itself, physically, vocally, facially. So I think you saw a real distinct uniqueness back in the 80s and the 90s of these cats with those original creative teams. I don't know how long that continued for with people that still had had the benefit of the knowledge of the original creators. But you know, Victoria needed to be a particular size. They like to have particular facial features. The same for any of the kittens. They needed to be small, like the rubble teasers that we had were tiny, still. Gymnastics type women, the Cassandras were super tall and skinny, and there was a distinction between Cassandra and Victoria. So there was no it was never a homogeneous looking cast of just the best dancers around everyone was very good, but they had distinct ways of moving, and they had very distinctive body and face types. And I felt like some of these other companies that I saw, I didn't see that as much. That difference in each character on stage, which I think gives it a depth that is necessary. Yeah,

[10:36] Mike Abrams: it's an interesting part of the show, because as someone who's seen has talked to a lot of people now about this, and has seen only more modern productions, really, of 2016 forward. And what I can find on YouTube, or whatever I can find on the internet, there has been a change, and there's been some that I think has also reshaped at least some of the for me, the story arcs of it. So when you have a younger Grizabella, it's harder for me to accept her as a Jocko choice. When you have a younger Jenny, any dots, it doesn't make her feel as motherly, necessarily, and sometimes so I do think that some of those changes maybe are part of where the chaos of the storylines kind of comes from over the years, and where you see some of these differences versus I think what I'm hearing you say is a while back, it was very it was cast very specifically. It was to fit the story.

[11:25] Speaker 2: And I, I think that's really important for its success. You know, when you look back at those, those original company that that, that the way that it was constructed in all of those replica companies were very successful and ran for decades. I don't know how long it was 20 years or so. So why was it so successful? You have to go back and look at some of the elements that you know fueled that, and I think one of them was Jillian, one's choreography. She knew when to be still. She knew when it was okay to have a frenzy on stage and the energy of the full company doing something, she knew who should be dancing which number and who should not. It was never random. It was never like, here's dance steps that go with this music. It was Why would Victoria be dancing this? Why would she not be dancing that? Why is the company suddenly hits a freeze like cats do, and why does the company or a particular character go, you know, you know, gearing about like cats do sometimes. And I felt like it those elements were there. Yeah, then, and it's very easy to make it a three ring circus. Uh, totally, totally. Then you don't know what's going on. You don't know where to look like. I thought they did a great job of helping to focus the audience towards a certain thing at a particular time which balanced the show and helped you kind of flow through the experience which I don't I never heard it as much of us, we were given a story line ish, but it was really more about the characters having this experience together. And then, of course, you know the the reckoning for Grizabella, which has a satisfying ending as speaking as a producer, yeah, so

[13:07] Mike Abrams: we're gonna get to that, because I will. I have some I have deep thoughts that I want to hear a little bit, though, because I you know, you're given one sentence essentially, which gives you the backstory of what you need to go but then you also are staged a certain way. You're told when to dance and when not to dance. What elements do you remember from Victoria's story that were like, Oh, here's a moment, or here are a couple things that I have to do to kind of land her arc, even, whether it's a dance moment, of vocal moment, a piece of like, where, who are you're standing next to. Like, what are those moments?

[13:42] Speaker 2: Well, I think she has, of course, her beautiful solo in the very beginning of the show, with that one pool of light coming from overhead, and that introduces her. And that's the beginning of her kind of story arc, I guess, if you will. And she's just sort of, you know, have an introspective moment. I in my mind, it's her first time coming to the ball, and she's exploring what that means to be a part of that tribe and and in this moment, again, that that quote from Jillian Lynn, I think it's very appropriate that she's sort of exploring her self as a a young woman coming at age and all. That's what that means.

[14:29] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I've heard some Jillian when quotes about that. She sort

[14:33] Speaker 2: of takes that next step, I think in the ball, because she's got a couple of pada moments in there with in my case, it was with tumble breeders. And she does, you know, she's got a depending on how the company is choreographed. In mine, Victoria did all of those moments. She does the big lift with Manka strap in the very beginning. I don't know if the post 2016 companies do that, and she does the. Two solos in the ball as well, and and most of the ball in the videotape of the London company capture, I think Victoria is not in quite as many of the ball sections, but in my company, I pretty much did nearly, nearly all of them that the girls were in. Yeah,

[15:20] Mike Abrams: yeah. So you were dancing a lot.

[15:23] Speaker 2: It was exhausting. Frankly, yeah, I had no idea. You know, in fact, every show that I did after that, for some reason, I always felt like, oh, I hadn't fully done it. Because it wasn't like cats, where at the end of Act One, you are just, no matter how fit you are, you're just, it was just, you know, you're just sweating bullets and out of breath, and it was an incredible experience. But, boy, it was hard. Did

[15:49] Mike Abrams: you have a city where you're just like, Why did I leave producing to do this?

[15:54] Speaker 2: I was always harder to do in places like, say, Salt Lake City, where the elevation was really high. So they used to have, you know, canisters of oxygen back there for us. So that was always difficult. And or if the theater had was really old and had strange, you know, challenges, I never had the feeling of, why did I do this? I always loved it. But some of those things were, like, on top of the challenge of this show, also having to deal with that like, I can't remember where it was, but there was some town that we were in where the the theater had no crossover, meaning you couldn't get from stage left to stage right without going somewhere else. And in this case, you had to run through the lobby of the hotel next door, which was a old folks home, and so we could, we would be running through this, and you had to run because it was a, you know, the show was not put together with the thought that you were gonna have to go next door to get to the other side of the state. But these the people in the old folks home were started lining up and sitting like in rows on either side of this lobby to watch us run past and cheer us on, like we were doing the Boston Marathon or something.

[17:05] Mike Abrams: That's that's so fun, yeah? Well, so we'll jump to the segment, and we'll come back to some of the questions I have, because I love hearing crazy tour stories. So like, what are some of the ones you remember that were either bizarre, funny, memorable moments from being on tour?

[17:22] Speaker 2: Let me think, well, that was one of them. I really remember that pretty distinctly. There was another place, I think it was in Wisconsin, in the middle of winter. They also didn't have a crossover. You had to go outside tiny costume

[17:37] Mike Abrams: and run that. Run outside these

[17:39] Speaker 2: unitards are there. I mean, some people wore it under, like a second layer underneath. I didn't like to do that. Just made me feel a little less connected to my body and the floor. But, yeah, that one was that was really cold. I remember that we, we also had the, I probably the only company that played Alaska and Hawaii. So those were really interesting experiences. When we went to Hawaii. I believe it was the first time that cats was performed in an arena. So we did this big arena thing with, like, screens all over the place. And Andrew Lloyd Webber also came out to that they were experimenting with that. And so that was really interesting. We were sold out music. It was, you know, 10,000 seats, people coming to see cats out there. And I guess they don't get a lot of musical theater. It's just too expensive to get the set out there. And I don't know, has to, they have to fly it or put it on a boat, yeah, what? But that was a super cool

[18:38] Mike Abrams: so this is like a sports arena. And yeah, because they did a, I know in Australia, they did, like, a circular, like, circus tent. So that was probably while they were testing those things out of, like, how could we do a, not necessarily bigger, but a different type of staging? Because you have, you have, like, less of a behind, I mean, I guess you know, you're, you're cutting off a corner of the stadium, right? They

[18:59] Speaker 2: were you, as I recall, it was they sort of like a platform, like it wasn't the foot. We didn't do it in the round. It was, yeah, there's a part of it that was cut off for backstage. And, yeah, it was unusual. It was definitely unusual kind of experience. I think that's the only time we did it like that. And they were testing out having if it was still resonant for the people that were really far away to have the big screen so they could see more up close. And then, as a performer, you sort of had to keep that in mind as well, that you were performing to people that were pretty far away. But there was also this sort of micro view of your face or your body that you needed to be aware of as well. Did you

[19:40] Mike Abrams: go to the audience in those stadiums? Like, did you stop

[19:44] Speaker 2: there? Okay, I think we did. And then Alaska, the interesting thing about that was that, you know, again, theater didn't get up there that often, and so people came multiple, multiple times. They were so excited to have a show. They're like, we don't care if the show is. We're just gonna see it three or four times. So that was kind of interesting to see people come back often. And then again, the community was so excited to have the show there that we would go out to dinner, and people would buy our dinner. Just say, oh, that table over there buying your dinner because they're just want to welcome you to Alaska. Wow. So that didn't happen other places. So that was kind of an one of the unusual aspects of Alaska, and we were there in the warmer months, so that was kind of nice. And we were to see this some of the countryside around there, and it's just beautiful area. What was the

[20:37] Mike Abrams: reception like in general? I mean, this is still so new, like, it's not like now, when cats comes to town, people have a pretty good sense of at least, they can at least do their research and figure out what it is. But in the late 80s, early 90s, that's less possible, and then a lot of times it's gonna be the first time that cats has ever been to this city. So what was the did you have any kind of mixed reactions? Or everyone very open and like, they knew what they were getting into. Like, what was the tour like there? It

[21:06] Speaker 2: was pretty universally loved. I mean, it was so unusual, and people we didn't. It was before computers and the common use of VCRs, and it hadn't ever been recorded at that time. So it was this really new, surprising experience for people. And I think that's I'm so grateful that I was a part of that for something so new and exciting. People didn't know what to expect when they came in. I mean, all you see is the two eyes, the two yellow cat eyes with some dancer figures in there. And so they didn't know what to expect. So you come in, there's no curtain like the the set is there before you, you know, bleeding out into the audience. And then you're surprised with the type of music that it is. It's very synth based and electronic. And then you got you, you, you know, while it's pitch black, dark, dark, the cats are out there in the in the audience, the surprising people. People really didn't know about that.

[22:02] Mike Abrams: I didn't, I didn't in 2016 even, and I was not ready for that. Thankfully, I was not on the aisle.

[22:08] Speaker 2: So people are, you know, I think we, we spark them with that moment, and we spark them with the when they come in something totally unexpected. So people, I think, you know, the response was always like, wow, I just had, like, a really incredible experience. They may not have known that there was some sort of narrative in there, but they did understand that it was a tribe of cats, that they were all different. They had different, you know, personalities and different backstories, and that this one cat had had a rough time, and she was going to get another opportunity.

[22:41] Mike Abrams: So, yeah, it's, I do. I do. I do. Love the fact of like, people are getting the witnesses the first time, and kind of like, embrace it, but, but

[22:49] Speaker 2: it was, you know, the thing to, you know, back when I was a part of it, it was for a dancer. It was the show to be in, I mean, and Victoria, along with a couple of other parts in there was one of the best dance roles you could have, if not the best dance role in the of that, you know, whole era. I mean, at that time, this was Phantom of the Opera and Les Mis and a lot of more Tommy tomb type shows with your kind of a rocket tall dancer. So for me, it was such a so huge to be able to have been considered for that part, and then get it because it was highly sought after. You know this, every dancer in town showed up for those open calls for cats. I remember I went to two of the large, big, open calls. And from those I, you know, eventually got to a short list. And I know that what I did, of course, was I, you know, prepared after I went to the first one, and we knew what choreography they would be doing for the most part that, you know, you just made sure that I worked on that really hard. I, you know, got some private coaching on how can I make my dynamics that much sharper, that much more powerful, and so that when I went back the second time to a big open call, I had this really beautiful moment in my life where you we danced in like, groups of 50. It was on a Broadway stage, and we came in there, and we danced in group of 50. And after my group went, the assistant stopped and said, Okay, we want everyone to do it again, except for you, Natasha. And I'm like, Oh, my God, am I in trouble? Like, get kicked out? What's going on? And he said, No. He said, No, this is good. You, they could not look at anyone. But you, that's all I saw. So you don't need to do it again. You can come over here and sit down and they're going to look at the other people.

[24:46] Mike Abrams: That's got to be terrifying for everyone else in the room being like, Oh, well, why am I here anymore?

[24:51] Speaker 2: It was first. It was a I just, you know, you thought you had done something wrong. But no, it was, I done something very right. So that was great. And then for. That moment on, I was then called into smaller, closed auditions. At the time, the casting office for cats, and most of the big shows was Johnson lip, and they called me in for the first time. After that, there was maybe 10 or 15 dancers there for Cassandra, I think Cassandra Broadway, and I didn't get it then, but I'm not that tall, so that was, wasn't surprising. And and then the next time was for Victoria and the tour. And then I did get it that time. So that was pretty exciting, although I didn't wait, you know, I remember, I was so anxious and so on edge about it that I You're not supposed to do this. But again, the only way you found out we didn't have computers, we they have to call you. You have to sit by your phone and hope you get a call. I don't even think I had an answering machine, yeah, at that time. Wow. So you're like, waiting for the phone to ring. So I'm like, I can't take it so, and I knew that this character needed to go out on the road pretty quickly, like it was a very fast turnaround. And they I just called a casting office, and you're never supposed to do that, but I just, I called him up and I said, you know, I auditioned for this, for Victoria, for the road, and I know that it's pretty fast turnaround. Could you just let me know if they'd cast the role yet? And the person that answered the phone was really nice. He's like, what's your name? And I said, Natasha Davidson. He said, Natasha Davidson. Hold on, just one second. And so then he goes away, and he comes back and he says, Don't tell anybody, because the producers are going to call you. They're just a little behind. But you got it, wow. Oh. It was so exciting. And then the process of being put into the show was also so exciting again. You at those days, you have to go to the producer's office to sign your contract, which was just cool, you know, to get to meet them and sign the contract, take picture of yourself signing the contract. And then also, in those days, you went to the Broadway house and they made this mold of your head. Everything was handmade for me. So they made a mold of my head for the wigs and of my feet. And, you know, measured every possible part of your body, like they kind of put you in a unitard, and they, like, around your fingers and your neck and, like, really drawing out your feet, so that those slippers, at the time were hand sewn for us from this very soft leather. I don't, I don't know what they do now, but, and then, kind of looking at your body contours, about how they're going to paint the unitard, and where they're going to place the fur on on the unitard, like Victoria doesn't have that much, and it was never but some of the ones lately that has it more bunchy, but this was really kind of diffused throughout the whole unitard, which is beautiful, And so just the process of them making the costumes and all of that was pretty cool too. I learned the show on the road, but the preparation of all of that other stuff happened in

[27:49] Mike Abrams: New York. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to go back to you were in the production for five years, six years, I think, is what I said. That kind of on and off, years,

[28:02] Speaker 2: on and off. Yeah, I did it almost two and two and a half, two and three quarters years, almost three years the first time I went into the company, and then I went back pretty much every year for several months until 1994

[28:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So I think this is where I'm kind of fascinated about the differences. Because you know that first year, you're given your story and your arc, and you're kind of playing off of what that that first cast is doing as a replacement. But then each year you get new people, new actors, new performers and different relationships. How does like, how did your Victoria evolve? Like, Were there ever moments where you're, I mean, not material changes, but like, maybe you were slightly closer to, like, playing a relationship with this character this year that you weren't the next year, not because of any any different reason, but it was just a different person.

[28:51] Speaker 2: I think that's very insightful of you. Yes, because we do have a lot of improp time in the show where we're engaging with the other characters around us. Now, in terms of staging, you can't change where you're placed on stage for that, but the way you interact with the this cat or that cat might change

[29:11] Mike Abrams: a little bit. Yeah, so did you? So how does that impact the story for you? Like, what would you say is, is Victoria's you've kind of given the line, you've given the story, but, like, what are the other relationships? Is she? Like, here's some. I'll just throw a couple out. Is she Grizabella, daughter? Is she last year's Jellicle choice? Like, how much of this has even thought about when you're doing this on the fourth tour, I it was not just about not at all. So that's all. I'm the only one thinking about these things with the No. I mean,

[29:40] Speaker 2: you're reacting in the moment as your character with the other cats, you know, I'm going to be different with, say, one of the other kittens, or, like, syllabi, or Tom Brutus or pounce of all, than I would be with the older adult cats, you know, a little bit more differential to them. I'm not going to like, go pounce on, you know, bomb Valley arena. She goes swap me. Way, yeah, like that, but I might play around a little bit with the other kittens, I think. So that kind of, that would change with the people on stage, but it didn't really change my character or what I felt was happening to her kind of coming of age through the course of that. So

[30:17] Mike Abrams: that's, I think that part's fascinating, because now current, like the current like the current tours, the tour that just finished and went out for last couple years, and even though the 2016 group that did it on Broadway, they're inundated with fan theories. And it's so there's so much out there now. There's so much fan fiction and stories. And you know me talking about these things, like, this type of thing exists, and they have those conversations on the bus, and I like, I'm fascinated by, like, where you weren't having these conversations at all on the phone, you weren't sitting there,

[30:47] Speaker 2: if there were those kind of conversations going on, I don't, I don't remember where I wasn't a part of them. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think in jest, we might do something like that, but not in any seriousness. I mean, you know, like, Wouldn't it be great if, you know, we could just decide that, you know, let's call the heavy side layer rehab and send the cavity up there. Yeah, get them out of the tribe. Yeah.

[31:14] Mike Abrams: I mean, it's, it's a fun piece is, I mean, it's really the only reason I but, you know, the show exists, and so many people listen to it is, is that there are a bunch of these theories, and it has kind of ended up on stage a little bit to your point. You can't change the staging. You're not changing the dance numbers, you're not changing the lines, but you can change those improv moments, and you can change the looks you give. You could be smiling versus frowning, or you can be, you know, pawing playfully versus aggressively, and that does kind of change a little bit of

[31:44] Speaker 2: the arc of each Victoria is always really drawn to Grizabella, so much so that she's courageous enough in those final moments when the rest of the tribe is still shunning her, that she stands up, even though she's one of the youngest

[32:02] Mike Abrams: cats there, and you don't see her as a mom, like

[32:06] Speaker 2: Isabella, as as mother. Yeah, I never thought of her that way, but I felt my character was always really, really drawn to her. Okay, so I think that's a could be a potential. I mean, Grizz, I would think more granddaughter, yeah, Grizzle is not, she's like, she's not just haggard, She's old, yeah, you know, at least that's the way that it was played at the time. You know, physically, you know, not injured, but aged. She was aged. So an aged cat would not necessarily have a, a, you know, whatever you say, 16 year old daughter. So I would say more grandmother, if anything. But, yeah, I think it's fun to think about that. Who knows?

[32:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's all the I think that's what the show is about. Is, was my shows about? So we is, I've thought about all the different versions of, like, if she, last year was Jekyll choice, that's, I think, to me, one of the potentials is that, oh, I think

[33:06] Speaker 2: that's very possible. I think that's an excellent, you know, possibility, yeah,

[33:12] Mike Abrams: for sure. But none of this stuff is told to you. You're given one sentence and then you're staging,

[33:18] Speaker 2: no, I mean, you know, like it's already very messy, kind of, you know, coalescence of all these elements. It's already that. So I think to bring in some of those things, well, there would be no way to explicitly have that be clear, yeah. So I think that, I think the cool thing about that show is that I think they really brilliantly had enough information and enough vacuums that a viewer could fill with whatever other thoughts they might have to deepen or enrich in their experience with the piece, which is exactly what you've done. Yeah,

[33:58] Mike Abrams: well, I think it's, I mean, it has, I kind of like that it's ambiguous. Like, I do think that there's some fun of that. And I have had some moments where I've sparked the debate online. And the, you know, the audience is straight 5050, and deciding between these two, which I think is really cool. Like, I find that unique, that there's it doesn't have to be for the show to be successful. It doesn't have to be like, This person is hit in this box for this reason at this moment, and nothing else, it is open ended. And I think that's why so many fans relate to to the show, because there's probably a character you can relate to, or at least a moment you can relate to, that for your personal life. And I think that that's what resonates. I'm curious for you, I know you're a professor now, do you teach? Does cats ever end up in your courses? No, no, okay,

[34:44] Speaker 2: well, let's let I take that back. When I first started teaching at University of Texas, I taught musical theater dance, so I did teach a little bit of the angelical ball, and I actually stood. Have, and still have my old rehearsal tale that you know, when you start learning to show you, they give you this tail. So you can start learning how to either a manipulate it, or B learn to work with it. Because, you know, especially for Victoria, there are times when you've got to do lifts and you're on your back and you've got to learn how to to do that all with this thing on your back. So there were, in that sense, yes, but not, not beyond that, other than as an example of a, you know, successful IP that, despite its the its uniqueness, at, you know, wildly it was a mega musical, wildly successful, yeah,

[35:41] Mike Abrams: okay, and has, as someone who's produced, is it a dream of your to ever produce this?

[35:46] Speaker 2: Sure, I don't know. I'd, hadn't thought about it, you know, it's, it's, I don't think that it would be available. If I were to produce it. I would probably want to do a replica of the original if that were ever to be allowed to to do that again, you know, maybe, yeah, on that make it even more immersive than it was. And I think that would be super Oh, it would, yeah, I'd be thrilled. Well,

[36:13] Mike Abrams: I'll give you my idea of how I would like it to produce, which is, I want to have a more immersive in the sense I want the audience to vote on the Jellicle choice each night. And so that's how we're that's how I think we make it really immersive, is let let the audience decide who gets to go up on the tire. Gotcha, let's go to some rapid fire. So okay, if you could go on one night in the show, whether you're the right height, age, whatever, just, if you could just produce play one character for one night. Who would you want to go

[36:42] Speaker 2: on it? Bomb ball arena. Bomb ball arena. Just cavity. Yeah, yeah. She's just beautiful. I love her costume and her wig and the makeup, the whole thing. And she's just fun. She's got a you know, carefree, sort of powerful female presence. And she gets to do sing the cavity, which is really a, you know, great fun song, and, yeah, probably Bob balley arena. I love it. Who are

[37:07] Mike Abrams: your favorite and least favorite characters in the show? Which cats do you love and which cats do you dislike? Hmm,

[37:13] Speaker 2: these are questions I've never pondered. Yeah, well, I definitely my favorite cat was Victoria, because that's whom I played. Um, their cat I dislike. Do you mean the character? I guess?

[37:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, no, I don't want to. We're not gonna throw actors. No, no, no, no. If you're thinking about either as Victoria or just as you as Natasha, like, which is the personality of the cat, that'd be like, I really can't stand this one.

[37:40] Speaker 2: Hmm, I don't know what that I had, that I had anyone that, no, I didn't, you know that character that I didn't like and gave you, I guess, my cavity. I mean, he was, mean, yeah,

[37:51] Mike Abrams: just the villain. I love it, yeah. What's your favorite song from the show?

[37:55] Speaker 2: My favorite song from the show, like the music or the number either, either, I would say that the number that I remember, and was most, you know, satisfied doing would be the ball, really exhausting, but it's just so many beautiful moments for Victoria. I love that number. I also really liked the opening number, yeah, like, I really they're parts of the opening number, like, when we're in a little clump, you know, practical, can't practical, yeah, I'm probably saying the lyrics wrong. But that one, I really liked that moment victorious. And my company was in the front for that. And it just, you know, we were sort of introducing a lot of that feline movement. And, yeah, love the opening number. Nice.

[38:40] Mike Abrams: Did you have a number, like a song, like a cat song, that you like the most

[38:44] Speaker 2: in terms of the melody? But I always loved, you know, memory? Yeah, I think it's one of the most iconic melodic lines in the show

[38:55] Mike Abrams: we're leading to. What I think is not going to be the I think you're gonna disagree with me on the last question, but before that, I always ask one fun one of the rapid fire. So as a professor, which cat do you think would be the best professor?

[39:08] Speaker 2: The best professor? Probably Gus or bust fur. You know, you know when I think of, and by the way, I'm thinking of this in the context of Victorian England, like if you were to take the cats in the context of the era that it was written, those poems were written, they sort of seem very professorial. And yeah, I

[39:37] Mike Abrams: thought of Gus the other two. I didn't think of us suffer, or maybe

[39:41] Speaker 2: monkey strap. I mean, monkey strap is the kind of the leader. Narrator, yeah, this, and he's got a very powerful, calm, leadership sort of presence throughout the show.

[39:49] Mike Abrams: The two that came to mind, and for very different reasons, I thought skimble Shanks would keep a very orderly call. He

[39:55] Speaker 2: would, you want to, you want to think, but he's also very nervous and skittish. So it's one of those things. Thinks he's sort of OCD, right.

[40:01] Mike Abrams: And then the professor I think that has the best like teacher ratings, is probably Joey Lauren. I think Joey Lauren would be an excellent, oh, she would teacher, and would care for her students, and would be very would have all the best rating, but probably gave too many A's at the university. Didn't like she's

[40:17] Speaker 2: too nice. Joey Lor would be great. I could see that? Yep. So those are excellent choices, and the worst ones is Tugger and mccaffity. Oh, right. They're the they're the guys in the back that are, like, got their sunglasses on or they're sleeping through court. Didn't even

[40:30] Mike Abrams: come. Yeah, didn't even come to show if they came at all. Exactly. Okay, let's ask the million dollar question. So the the thesis of this podcast has been arguing that I don't think Grizabella is the right choice. So I want to hear, do you want to defend Grizabella as your Jellicle choice? And if so, why? And if not, who would be your Jellicle choice? Okay,

[40:48] Speaker 2: so you are right. I think that you know the piece was written with specifically this arc of her song for her to be chosen. May she has to be chosen in the context of this show that they wrote. So if somebody else had to write a show in a different way, then I think, yeah, it's up for grabs. Could be any one of whomever, whatever cats that they created and whatever the songs were, you know to be, but this, in this particular composition, I think it has to be Grizabella. However, I heard you say that you felt like she needed to go the next year. And I was going to say that, you know how there's time on stage is contracted so there is, I don't know how many seconds, 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, where Grizabella, after Victoria, touches her and she's chosen, she goes around and is, you know, engaging with those cats. They're all turning around that in cat, that in stage year, that's a year in stage time. So she is getting that moment, because it's all contracted, right? So those, those many seconds are her, re engaging with the community before she goes up to be, you know, transformed and reborn again. So I'm sort of agreeing with you on the year she did, but she does get that moment. Okay, so you're picking Grizabella still, I'm still picking Grizabella and arguing that she does cat that sort of that those moments with those cats again, and it's just longer, you know, than you think.

[42:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so that's fascinating. So that's a very interesting counter argument to my current debate. Like, could

[42:30] Speaker 2: you say she is he? I think she does. And I think the the new cats that come into the tribe, like Victoria, she could very well be last year's choice. I think that's it. I could see that absolutely so

[42:44] Mike Abrams: I that's I love that. I love that the that the line that she gets to go through, where she gets to interact with each cat, that's a year, a year, full year. Okay, we get like 15 seconds on stage where we get a year. That means that the ball is like 20 years, 30 years, like

[43:01] Speaker 2: everybody ages? Yeah, okay, I

[43:05] Mike Abrams: want to ask this question then, because I think this is what that very this is, these are all very unanswerable questions. I'm very aware of that. What's Old Deuteronomy criteria, that because, like, I get the story arc of Grizabella and that she's picked, but is there another cat, like, next year? Is there another cat that was banished, that's gonna get picked or, like, how's he choosing next year?

[43:26] Speaker 2: Well, I think in the case of Grizabella, it's because she needs it. Do you know what she's needs it? And then maybe duet derotomy believes that she's ready, like, you have to be ready for transformation and choose transformation. I mean, she could have just stayed in the shadows and never come out and tried to re engage with the Jellicle cats, but she does, so maybe that's the fact that she did. That is what helped her character cross the Rubicon into being chosen rather than not being chosen.

[44:00] Mike Abrams: Okay, so that would eliminate because Gus also needs it, but he does need it. Maybe isn't as ready.

[44:05] Speaker 2: That's could be, I don't know. Okay, yeah, it could be,

[44:09] Mike Abrams: this is never, this is never discussed, right? Like, this is nothing, something you're never thinking about. No,

[44:13] Speaker 2: no, we never mind. Like, how come it's crazy? Yeah, he would, he would need that 11th hour song too. You know, we'd need to know a little bit more about him, I suppose.

[44:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I love this question, because I think, as a Victoria, you know, you're being picked, you're not ready. It's like, not part of the arc at all. But there are all the there's, you know, a Gus and a bunch others. It's like, all right, how did you sell yourself on? Like, why not me today, and it's an interesting piece of it, because I don't we're only given, well, in your new theory, we're only given maybe a couple years. We're given one ball, we're given one choice, and we're given that that timeline, and that's it. To understand this whole universe and decision and this. Ritual, and it's, to me, it's almost like it's really challenging because of that, compared to this. I'll start as a joke, because I just saw Leona Lewis, and I was like, this is the X Factor. And so that's how I wanted to vote. That's why I want to vote. I still want to vote version of this. But then as I've dug through this more, I'm like, Well, how was last year's choice made? How's next year's choice made? Is it there's not, there's not that answered. And I think it's a really interesting question, and I'm glad that I'm now slowly starting to get people to think about it, because I want, I want to understand, in this universe that was created, what does that look like, and how do they think about it? It's sort

[45:35] Speaker 2: of, who do you choose to help? Yeah, you're going to rally around this year, and maybe every ball has a different type of person that they're going to help for different reasons. It would never be Victoria, because she just got there. Yeah, she's brand new. It's not going to be the kittens, unless something, you know, horrible happened to them, and they need to, you know, their journey is going to be short in that the life of that cat. Yeah? So, well, there's

[46:00] Mike Abrams: a whole nother conversation that can go around that, as if Victoria was truly last year. What was her, you know, like, what's the

[46:10] Mike Abrams: Oh, you think she's new. So you don't think this was her being reborn. Well, she's,

[46:16] Speaker 2: yeah, I think being reborn is your brand new. You're a clean slate. And I think that's another thing you think about with Victoria. She's, you know, she's pure, and all the things that kind of go with the connotations of that, yeah. But I want to

[46:28] Mike Abrams: know what her story was before she was sent to the hemisphere, because she's coming back as Victoria. She's kind of, was she a Grizabella arc where she left and was banished and got her redemption? Very interesting.

[46:39] Speaker 2: Because, you know, they start the movie that way Victoria being abandoned, which, gosh, she didn't really connect with how I always thought of the show. I mean, I love that they made Victoria come more central character. I thought that was very cool, only because I had played Victoria. But she, I mean, the backstory on her was that she was from a, you know, in a very well to do fancy house, you know, she has the nice pink collar, and she's so clean and well taken care of and innocent and protected. And so that was the only thing that didn't align a little bit with me in terms of her story arc in the film. Oh, there's a lot of stuff in the film. The film is just listen, you know, so many talented people working on that, but I did think it was a bit of a missed opportunity. Else, you know, I love Andy blanken Bueller's work and that director's work, but I think some of the elements that made the original really resonant we're missing there. And also something, you know, I also did Beauty and the Beast for Disney. We learned a very I learned a very valuable lesson that was articulated so well by the folks that directed us. You know, you've got, you have to keep really grounded in the truth of your character and the truth of the story here, otherwise your character becomes a caricature and you don't you know the costumes already take care of that fantasy world that you're in. You don't need to do anything about that. You don't need to amplify that. You need to keep the truth of your the kind of human part of your character, the strongest part of your performance, yeah, so that it doesn't become superficial and silly and yeah, again, a caricature as opposed to, you know, a deeply rooted character. Yeah,

[48:30] Mike Abrams: that's a really interesting quote and piece, because I do think, like the movie missed me, not because of the talent of the people, but because of the way it was edited, I just didn't get to see the choreography the way I would want to. I didn't get to see the dancing the way because it was just moving around so frequently that it was hard to follow. And they made some edits and some choices that were very different to the to me, the plot and the actual story, and a lot of weird general decisions of like, why is this cat huge, and then tiny, and huge, and then tiny, and all this other there's a lot of other things but, but I love the idea of like, you're already in a cat suit. You're already doing the cat's mannerisms, like you're taught that stick to being Victoria, exactly like Alan Victoria story. Not Victoria the cat, but Victoria. That's a really, really, really sound advice. It

[49:22] Speaker 2: was. And I know that for Beauty and the Beast again, they would tell us that it can so easily. You can so easily start going just for the gags and and all of that, and don't do that, because you kind of lose the heart of the story. I mean, in that show I had, I was in the German premiere company, so I did get the chance to learn it as a whole group. And I played, I had an ensemble track where I'm like a towns lady, a wolf, a plate, a napkin, you know? And then I also played Babette, who's the feather duster. But, you know, you have to play to the character of Babette, not you. The Feather Duster, yeah, otherwise, she's, she's just going to be, yeah, again. I mean, not nearly as resonant. So, and I think the same was true of cats, but they weren't, you know, it was, I think the same. Richard Stafford was also maintained our show, and he, I think he's still involved, and he did a really great job of keeping the show on track. And every now and then they would even change something in choreography that you're so used to doing that you had to be on your toes. It was a great strategy, you know, not phoning it in as it were,

[50:34] Mike Abrams: yeah, especially when you're traveling around and you're doing it eight times a week or more, and you're,

[50:39] Speaker 2: oh, it's exhausting. I don't, yeah, people necessarily understand how tiring it is, not only the schedule, because you only when you're on the road, depending on how many times you're moving cities. I mean, we had, we would stay for months, like when we go to some of the bigger cities. We stayed in San Francisco for a while, or we might be some we might have two cities in one week, have a split week, and so when you combine the travel with the show, we often didn't get a day off that wasn't about the show. So that's tiring. And then, because it's so physically grueling you're, I mean, at least my body, every time I woke up, I'd be like, it was hard to get out of bed, because it's

[51:28] Mike Abrams: gotta be some of the best shape you're ever in, right? Like, it's you are. I

[51:32] Speaker 2: will say that I don't think depending on the choreography didn't suit everybody's body. You know, I got through that show without injury. I mean, I did get a broken finger at one point because somebody kicked me, but, but, but I never had any injury from doing the show. But for some people, uh, that was hard. I think it was hard on however their body just happened to be made that because, you know, choreography is not balanced. It could have, you know, 25 bat moths on the right leg and none on the left. Yeah, you know, so you can start to get a little imbalanced that way. So we would work really hard to, you know, maintain your body so it didn't start compensating, and then you have a problem. And then, so I was, I was pretty lucky that way, but we worked hard at it. I mean, I would was doing all kinds of, you know, massage work and physical therapy and exercise and stretching to, you know, mitigate any problems. It

[52:32] Mike Abrams: is fascinating. It's one of the things that, when I saw it the very first time, was one of the biggest takeaways, besides the story, where I'm like, What did I watch? Is I kept thinking like, these performers are working so hard for so long with no break. I was like, I was just amazed. As, like, you know, I grew up playing hockey, and hockey is a sprint, so it's, you know, you're on for 30 seconds, you're off for a minute. And I've always like, I couldn't run a marathon today, but I could run a marathon if you let me do it that way. And I'm watching these performers been like, I assume the theater was kind of similar, like, you get your moments on stage, you get your moments off, you get your moments on stage, you get moments off. And I'm like, nope, these cats are on the

[53:08] Speaker 2: entire time, pretty much even in the second act, you're placed somewhere in the set. Yeah. I mean, you're basically a part of the set, you know, a living part of the set. But, I mean, some people got really lucky. They could sort of be in the tunnel that they could, you know, they could probably even take a nap. Yeah, I was usually on the tire. I think I spent a lot of the second act kind of on the tire, or right in front of the car trunk, pretty visible, well, and you're white. I mean, that was the thing.

[53:36] Mike Abrams: You can't blend. You don't blend at all. There was literally

[53:39] Speaker 2: no hiding for me and my character, which I loved, but it was also a big responsibility. And they, I used to get that note a lot. They're like, Listen, you know, when everybody's on stage and their dance, everyone's looking at you, because you're the only one that's that solid, bright, and with the lights on it, it just glows. And so you there's a standard, you know, of execution. You've got it. You're sort of setting that standard, yeah. So that was great, because it's easier to actually to be in the front row. You have a little bit more space up in the front, which was nice than having to be in the back. But there you also have the responsibility. You're also the front. You're also in the front. So

[54:21] Mike Abrams: wow, this has been super fun. I love reminiscing. I love hearing different parts. I love the that the line Chris Bell's line is her year. That's something I have not thought about. So that's a fun piece to maybe bring to the future. Makes maybe I'll think, I'll be thinking about that for a while, which is not good. I already think about the show an unhealthy amount of time. Well, you

[54:40] Speaker 2: know what? I think I heard one of your podcasts where somebody was saying doing site specific cats. And I do think that is a super cool idea on a variety of levels, like, not only to possibly revitalize some sort of declining building or structure or neighborhood or something, but that's sort of, that's. Going to the heavy side layer. You're, you're bringing this exciting piece of theater to a place that might need a little love, yeah? And although it's, you know, there's a lot of challenges with site specific work, but I think that, like this show really lends itself to that if you do it, yeah?

[55:16] Mike Abrams: Because, I mean, it's a junkyard, so it's like a junkyard somewhere else is, a fascinating kind of idea of doing it, but it adds a whole different, as put on your producer hat, yeah, a whole different layer of like, how do you make that work? But it, yeah, there's, there's a lot of interesting ways, I think, to to not fully reimagine, but tweak the show. But I also, at the same time, to your point, it's been so successful, it's so revolutionary. That's why they don't tweak it too far. So as much as I want an Edwin drew style, different ending each night, like, yeah, sure, I'm ever gonna get that, I'm gonna keep pushing for it. That's my it could

[55:53] Speaker 2: be. And you know how it could be at an after show, you know, like the shows, the show, and then you have a little post production kind of thing where maybe that I could see that being super fun and come out after, yeah, the audience chooses, you know, that kind of thing. I don't know. It's interesting. What I do love is that it's still, there's still conversation about this show, and that people are still iterating it and doing their own take on it. And I think all of that is just fabulous, yeah,

[56:20] Mike Abrams: and the fans love it still. I get messages. I get messages all the time with, like, here's this little nugget that you talked about, but you did, did you know this? I'm like, I did not know that. That's awesome, you know? So it's really cool to hear how everyone kind of thinks about it. And there's just so much, the levels and layers of it's been going on in so many countries and so many different places that there's, there are nuances everywhere. I

[56:41] Speaker 2: would say that you are never going to run out of people to talk to you there. Yeah. So that show ran for so long, and I think because it was such a heavy dance show, you have a little bit more attrition and turnover, you know, because not, not many people can do it for a decade, although some people did, yeah, I think including a Victoria, I think one of the Victorians on Broadway did it a really long time. So there are plethora of folks that you could talk to, you know, that did the German companies or the the Mexican company, or, yeah, the Paris company,

[57:19] Mike Abrams: I kind of originally said, I'll keep doing this all until people stop talking to me. And then I have, I mean, I don't know when this one's gonna come out, but I as of today, I have, I think, six extra recorded so like that aren't even out yet, so I and I have three more recording this weekend. So there are endless amounts of people that want to And thankfully, people are enjoying this and like to have this conversation, and it's been fun. So I will keep recording until people do not want to record with me anymore, but I have a feeling that'll be a long time now and forever, now and forever. So I

[57:53] Speaker 2: love talking to you about it. It's been a while, but it was a big it was a big part of my life. I love the piece, and again, I love that there's still conversation about it, and still people, it's still out there and on tour, I think is it still out on tour, just

[58:07] Mike Abrams: finished tour. I don't know if it's going back out, but it is on Royal Caribbean, still currently. Oh, that's right, yeah, fantastic. Taiwan, Asia tour just finished. But I don't know if they're going back out. It was, I mean, there's always production. So it's, I think there was an Vienna was on for a while. There was an international tour for a while. I always just assume that I'm gonna see people holding their contract with the books soon. Of like, here's the next tour going out. I think it's currently running at least two places right

[58:35] Speaker 2: now. That's fantastic. And I know it's regional. It's done regionally, which took a long time for it to get there. I've actually seen it in high schools. Yeah, there's a junior production. There's a junior production, okay,

[58:45] Mike Abrams: that I I only know because I'm from Indiana, and they're doing it either end of this year, early next year, for two nights. And I'm like, I tell me more, like, what? How do you do a junior Pro? Like, I don't know anything about that, so trying to understand a little bit more about what even that looks like. But yeah, there's just, I mean again, endless, endless versions of this, endless versions.

[59:03] Speaker 2: You've got lots of people to talk to, yeah, well,

[59:07] Mike Abrams: I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. This was super fun. So thanks for

[59:10] Speaker 2: being here. Oh, I had a blast. Thank you so much for asking, and thanks everyone

[59:14] Mike Abrams: for listening to this episode of the rocket die the podcast. Break down the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or anyone else listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok and threads at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died. Calm.