This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm a wrong one night. I'm a wrong one night. I welcome to the wrong cat.

[0:28] Mike Abrams: Die the podcast. Break down the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was the Rum Tum Tugger on the US national tour five and started the tour. So welcome Stan Stanley, thank you

[0:43] Mike Abrams: got introduced by your most awfully so I always, you know, there's such a connection between those your characters. So I think this is kind of fun to have you on the show. Yeah. So let's, let's start the beginning. This is always an interesting question, because you're like, around, right around the movie, when the movie came out. So it's like that 1998 movie came out. You're going on tour in 2000 2001 ish, yes. What was your introduction to cats? Had you been aware prior to the movie? Or were you like? What was the first viewing for you?

[1:13] Speaker 3: I had been in love with the music from cats for probably 1520, years prior to me auditioning for the show, the community theater group that I grew up in would take a trip, or the adults would take a trip to New York every year and see the new shows. So 8283 84 somewhere. You know, when the show was just getting getting started, the group had gone and came back with rave reviews of this, you know, very unique, Sung through, danced through show, and they brought me as a little souvenir, because, of course, I was at home, the vocal selections from cats. And okay, I played the piano from a young age, and I would sit and play through that ad nauseam, I'm sure, and was particularly obsessed with the song up to the heavy side layer for some reason. But so before I saw the show, I was very drawn to and intrigued by the music. And then in high school, my high school marching band, this would will age myself. But around 1990 91 took a trip to New York, and that was the first time that I saw the, you know, still running original production of Cats in the winter garden. And so, you know, it really piqued my interest. It had always piqued my interest, but then I finally got to see it live. And my one funny memory that I always think about is, you know, of course, I was looking as a singer. I was primarily a singer. When is Grizabella going to belt that high E flat, ready for it? And then the intermission came after little memory. What I now know was little memory. And I thought, where's that high E flat. What are we even doing here? Then I, of course, set to intermission and and was able to be very pleased by the by the end of the show, with big memory, yeah, it's,

[3:09] Mike Abrams: it's funny say that, because the first time I saw it too, memory was the only song I knew of the show going into it. And they kind of tease you with it, yeah, this little memory. And I'm like, Huh? I don't remember that song being a lot more powerful, and had the same kind of reaction, exactly, oh, no, wait, this. I've seen enough theater at that point to be like, Wait, this can't be this. Can't be it. Like, this has got to be, right? But, yeah, they do kind of kind of hit you with it. So, yeah. So you're in high school at that moment, but you're introduced, you weren't invited to the adult trip, right? Like, no kids, kids don't get to come, okay? Adults only, so you got, and this is, you know, this is what is pre YouTube, pre all this stuff. You're bringing back a cassette tape with the vocal selections. And

[3:50] Speaker 3: I don't even remember that, I, I guess probably so it would have been a cassette tape. I just remember that I had the the like, the piano book, easy book, okay, the vocal selections from and so I sat down at the piano and played, and of course, that's only, you know, probably a quarter or third of the music that's actually in the show was included in that little book that I was given. Yeah, I sure did learn those songs.

[4:17] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. So you so you knew all the music gone in and you got you finally get to see in high school. Yes, when do you audition for this? Like, how did that come up?

[4:27] Speaker 3: So I moved to New York City in March of 2001 just, you know now, looking at it, just prior to September 11, and I just started hitting the pavement and going to all the auditions that I could. And I and I had gotten hooked up with a really good vocal coach whose name is Stan Tucker, randomly. He's also from Tennessee, but he had a rich history with a lot of the Andrew Lloyd Webber. Shows, I think with cats. I think maybe Starlight Express even, and for sure, long history with a Phantom of the Opera. And so I was taking voice lessons and audition coaching with him, and he would always check up on, you know, what auditions are you going to this week? What are you What do you have going on tomorrow? And I said, Well, they're doing a new cats tour, and I would love to be in the show, but I'm a, you know, not that strong of a dancer. And he had me sing some Elvis Presley music for him, and said, I'm gonna call who I now know was Kristen Blodgett and tell her you're coming. And I walked into the audition for the first time, and that's how that all got rolling. So

[5:44] Mike Abrams: he picked Elvis because of, he knew you were gonna send you in his Tugger.

[5:48] Speaker 3: Yes, he thought that that was the role, you know, that if any in the show, that I would be suited for my I had, you know, studied voice in college, and was, you know, kind of a legit musical theater singer by voice tended to work well with like rock opera, the Who's Tommy Jesus Christ Superstar, which shows I'd done previously. And so I didn't really at that point realize that there was a character in cats for me, but he recognized that and sent me to the audition. And

[6:21] Mike Abrams: so was Tugger in your book Growing up as a kid.

[6:27] Mike Abrams: so, yeah, so you're not familiar.

[6:29] Speaker 3: I wasn't really drawn to it strange. Okay, yeah, so you're less familiar.

[6:33] Mike Abrams: You're walking into this audition. Did you give like it obviously fits your vocal range, and if it's kind of your the singing piece, that piece that you can do, yes, how much of it was like? Was that your personality? Like? Was it a, did you have to kind of dive into that aspect of this?

[6:51] Speaker 3: Well, it's funny. It's which came first. You know, I'm not sure. I think of now as my personality. I think it was, I was really typecast into the role, but at the time, that's really not how I considered myself. And, you know, after playing 700 performances, because I did the show for two years after that, I completely thought, oh, that's definitely my cat. I mean, he's a little mischievous. He's a little, you know, crazy, you know, likes a good party. And so, yeah, that's, yeah,

[7:27] Mike Abrams: were you Tugger before? Did you become Tugger?

[7:33] Mike Abrams: fine. So okay, so when you're in the audition process, how much of this like someone who's not ever been in audition room, even in high school or anything else. Just never have done this. How much of this are you given of like, all right, I need you to be able to make sure you can just dance a little bit, because you got to dance. You got to do some of this part. Here's what I need you to sing, but also here's the personality you're going to have to play. Like, what are you told in that specific space?

[7:58] Speaker 3: Well, I have learned that the audition process for has been very different for a lot of different people, even with the cast that I started with, I think. But for me, I remember us learning the choreography to the very last minute or two of the opening number and which, and then after learning that and getting that a little bit in our bodies, they really encourage us to let ourselves kind of have a lot of fun with it and be that was probably where I was introduced to the term felonity was by Richard Stafford in that original audition. And then from there, I went to several callbacks. And I don't really remember during the audition process, being coached on acting like Tugger wood, but they did always have me sing an Elvis Presley song, interesting. Okay, so, you know, and that involved moving up the hips, I guess, and kind of like the general demeanor, or that Tugger would bring, you know, to the show. And it wasn't until we really started the the rehearsal process, that they started kind of explaining more of the character, character arc, and, you know, the background that you you've learned so much about. I've heard a lot, honestly, listening to some of your podcast episodes. Yeah,

[9:21] Mike Abrams: it's, it's, it is a little bit of, like a game of telephone at this point with, with the cat's lore. So, okay, so now you get cast, and you're, this is the beginning of this tour the store for like, 10 plus years, I think, right? So this is the first group. What are you like? What do you remember about that? Like, first around the horn of, like, here's the story, here's this. And I really want to know, like, what, as someone who saw it, someone who grew up with the music, what was the moment where you're like, wait a second, this is about what. Like, this is my character here. Like, what was those aha moments? Honestly,

[9:53] Speaker 3: I think I don't know, a funny memory jumping ahead two and a half years after. I left the show, one of my best friends on tour was our hair and makeup supervisor, and he continued with the show after I left, and they were in and I had would had moved back to New York, and I went to see David Hanson with the cast in somewhere in Connecticut, rode, rode the train up, and Richard Stafford and Miss Blodget. Kristen Blodgett were in the audience, and I remember going over to them and saying, you don't really realize you're such a part of such a classic, you know, phenomenon of a show, until after you are not a part of it anymore. Yeah, that was the first time that I had seen, you know, it was the replacement calf, the guy that replaced me as Tugger. And I really, I remember that being very impactful about, wow, I was a part of this huge juggernaut of a show. But then so backtracking, then another two years, when we started rehearsals, I was very overwhelmed by the this role in particular, because one, I just didn't think that I was quite a good enough dancer. And then, as you know, two years prior, three years prior, the VHS of the taping of the like cat superstars basically, was what that capsule was, in my opinion. And their Tugger danced the whole ball, and, you know, did all this stuff. He was just a tremendous, tremendous and I knew that I had the vocal chops for it. I was not intimidated by that at all. But I thought, am I going to be able to, you know, we McCrea Kelly, this dancer from Atlanta Ballet, and Shiloh who had done the show in Germany, that, you know, our two lead dancers, they were, I was blown away by the talent, and I thought, am I going to be able to live up to that? So I didn't really get into the headspace of what the character Tugger was until probably a month or two into the run, because I was so, you know, concerned about the logistics of being here and doing this and singing this, and making sure my riffs were right and and then finally, once it, you know, sinks in. I've heard you talk about the Atlantic City run was a abbreviated show. And I remember in I think it was Charles, no, it was a Raleigh, North Carolina, wherever we started the full version of the show. And then a couple weeks after that, I remember singing in and talking to some cast mates about that, was the first time I had been comfortable enough to talking about our different character, you know, relationships and who dated who, and who, you know, whose Kitty was belong to who, and things like that. That's so

[12:35] Mike Abrams: interesting, because it is like I always forget, and it's a show that has that such a polarizing piece, because I've heard the reverse of what you're saying. You're saying, like, Hey, can I do the dance numbers? I know I can do the singer. I've heard the singer or the dancer. So I was like, I know I can do the dance numbers, but like, do I have the vocal chops to do some of this and to be in there? And it's kind of a different piece where there's, that's, that's a show that's like, there's a lot of shows where you could just go out and sing and walk off stage and vice versa. And this show, you don't get that luxury, no. So I hadn't even really thought about the idea of what you're saying, which is, like, I'm ignoring the story, basically, until I can make sure I hit my marks and I'm not gonna kick somebody in a spin, or, you know, all these other things that you gotta solve doing this show for the first time. So, right? That's super interesting. So okay, so now I want you to fast forward, though, to you start having those conversations, right? What are you What are you talking about? Like? What are the things that are coming up from Tugger standpoint, and when you're on the bus and chatting through those, right?

[13:35] Speaker 3: Well, and I've heard, you know, you discuss on on prior episodes, is it the cats. Is your character leading these relationships, or is the actor the friendships that you are making on tour, which is, which is leading the relationships? And I'll have to say, you know, as it has turned out, some of my better friends on the road were the character, or were the actors that my character as Tugger interacts with more on stage. Obviously, Tugger and Grizabella have some type of past, and are my both of the grizzabellas that I worked with, Gretchen, Goldsworthy and Dee rossioli Were those were two of my best girlfriends on on the tour the relationship between Tugger and Mr. Police, you know, in from the practical, you know, point of view, I started thinking, Okay, well, we obviously have a great respect for him, because I seeing his number, and, you know, the Mr. Misto police number, but then is that, you know, I'm able to master that, and know that I'm doing a good job of singing and presenting his big dance number. And then I was able to ease into, okay, well, why is Tugger singing this, you know, why have all the people Tugger is, you know, so aloof and so here and there, and you can't take him down. Why is he so, you know, enamored, as it were. Misto police, so that I also, as a, as a singing actor, was always in had tremendous respect for the best dancers. And so I was definitely drawn to, you know, the the bigger dance roles. Musto, please, obviously. And then also, you know, Victoria, and even some of the other key dancers, pouncable, I Tugger. My Tugger always like watching pouncival Dance, just because I think it was something that he knew that he couldn't do they were good at. Maybe he's more of the star of the show, but he likes throwing a little attention to those, the little kitten dancers. Yeah,

[15:40] Mike Abrams: one thing I think that's interesting that you're saying, interesting that you're saying, and I've thought a little bit about, and I don't, don't know the answer to it, but it seems like, more recently, I think there's a little bit more flexibility in casting. Like, they're just in general, like, okay, maybe this person be a little bit shorter, or this computer is going to be there, and they don't have to necessarily match the personality. Whereas I think when you were doing it, they were a lot more of like, all right, I think this person embodies Tugger more, or embodies misophys More, embodies a character more. And then when you think about it from that lens, then you should be better friends with the ones that they expect you to be better friends with, because that would be the way, like the characters are kind of built around. And there's also a little bit of the like, we're recording this on a Sunday. I was watching football before we started. The offense is going to be more friends with the offense and the defense is more friends with defense, because you spend more time together. So if you're next to that person on stage, you're probably spending more time with them in general, yes, yes, but it's, it's, it's so fascinating to me, though, because the fans, like, Look at this. Of like, a wait a second, you shouldn't, like, those two shouldn't be pawing each other and and it could just be like, You know what? You you had a great conversation on the bus before, and all of a sudden it's like, no, you're gonna have some fun on stage. Yes,

[16:52] Speaker 3: yes. That's, I think, just the logistics of rehearsal kind of dictated who I was friends with, at least at first. Now, once you get on the road and you're all, you know, traveling together every week, then you know, you get to know everyone else. But there, I look at it as they cast. There's, it's a troupe of dancers and five singers with Deuteronomy, Gus, Tugger, Grizabella and, well, I guess Jenny any dots is a big singer in our company, she covered Grizabella, but also jelly Lorem. So those were, you know, cats that primarily were hired from the singer pool. And those, I had more rehearsal time with them at first, so I was naturally and also, I don't know if anyone has introduced this, but on our tour, you know, the cats are numbered. I was number five, I believe or six. Think I knew that, if not, yeah, yeah, I think it's Deuteronomy is one. Grizabella is two, then it's mostopheles, Gus and Tugger. So we always share the dressing room. They was not, it was not randomized dressing rooms, at least on our tour, and that was for two years. So yeah, we were always next to the same people, and that's just who I became friends with first.

[18:10] Mike Abrams: How did the numbers like? What are the numbers mean, and how they come

[18:14] Speaker 3: about? Oh, gosh, there was probably some lore about that that I've it's been, it's been a minute, but, well, I would guess that it was like the the order of, you know, star power in the original company is what I would think Ken page, you know, I don't know, yeah, honestly, I'm not sure, but I do know that they, they were numbered, and it wasn't just some random And strangely, it was that the guys were First, insert Grizabella as number two, and then the women started with the numbers. And I think their first after Grizabella was probably Jenny, Annie Dodds, and then jelly, interesting, yeah, that's

[18:51] Mike Abrams: super interesting. I hadn't heard that. I don't, I mean, I'd love to. I'm curious if I can. Does anybody that knows? I mean,

[18:57] Speaker 3: yeah, track that information out and that yeah, and Stanley's opinion that was, yeah, that was a real thing.

[19:03] Mike Abrams: Well, I Yeah. I mean, there's always the like, how does that who came up with it? Is there some thought behind it, or is it just somewhat randomized? Because, like, I even go back to, you know, if people have listened to the show from the beginning, my first 10 ish episodes were me going through characters, and I thought, like I was trying to just go through characters in the order that they showed up on the, like, this a song, and I realized that was grossly out of order, you know. So it's like, even mine. I'm like, Oh no, I just picked this person first. I thought they were first, and then I realized I was totally off. So there might be less thought put into those numbers and that we think

[19:36] Speaker 3: could it could have been, you know, the the the costumer or the robe, you know, decided that, but that's, there were numbers, and that was who I was written for the first strange,

[19:47] Mike Abrams: yeah, that's really interesting. That's, again, a different piece too. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. Okay, I want to, I want to fast forward to what are some of the really relation. Ships that you feel like you either created or really leaned into on tour once you got through that be kind of beginning of and now, you know, hey, here's, I'm ready for the dancing. I'm now going to start thinking about, is this my girlfriend, boyfriend, right? I'm going to make

[20:17] Speaker 3: this character. I'm going to live in this character more one of the first big ones that I remember really focusing on was tuggers relationship with muncastra. I think that I had been told that they were probably brothers, but I'm not positive that I was told that I could have, you know, discern that myself the first monk strap I worked with tremendously talented grant Turner. And around the time, I want to say that this came into, you know, the rehearsal process when we were in our previews in Atlantic City and so. And strangely, Grant and I were assigned to be suite mates in the hotel that we were staying. So we got to spend a little more time together. And then I was, you know, told, you know, you guys, your characters, are probably brothers. And then I remember one night we were practicing our makeup in the hotel room, because we all, you know, we did our own makeup, yeah. And we grant, and I realized that our birthdays were one day apart 11. And at the same time, realized that we had true story like matching birthmarks on the on our back, just a little like a random little birthmark. And so all of that really went to, you know, told me this is a character that you need to invest some time and thought into your relationship stage, and that's kind of an easy one. Now that I once I knew about it, it's very easy to see we, we introduced Deuteronomy. They're kind of two of the, you know, main older gentleman cast in the in the tribe. It made a lot of sense, but that's the kind of thing that when I was singing through the music, you know, at age 10, yeah, you're giving those things. No, I didn't get any of that. And when I saw it in high school, you know, I was so, you know, disappointed that I stopped at little memory that I wasn't getting anything about the mucoustrap Tugger relationship. Totally. That was certainly one that I put a lot of thought into at first and then, as different, you know, on tour, you are going through not always the same actors playing the same part. People have to swing out for illness or something. There might have been, you know, a rather serious injury, and someone else was playing the role. And that was always fun for me to play with, especially once I felt very confident in Tugger. Then when someone a new actor was mucoustrap, I felt very confident in kind of leading the way. For you know, what is the relationship with them? Of course, it's fun to hear someone else's take on it, too, but I was kind of the especially the second year I was on tour, a little bit of an elder statesman of that particular company. Yeah, that was, I know, I got a lot better at that particular role. Year two, when some new, new dancers came in,

[23:16] Mike Abrams: what about the Mustafa's relationship? You know, this one's infamous. And, yeah, yeah. How'd you think about it?

[23:21] Speaker 3: I think that it's well, you know, we always shared a dressing room. My first mistoolies, we were roommates together at the beginning of the two well, and put together as roommates at the beginning of tour, and then chose to save roommates throughout I was listening to his episode earlier today, preparing for this. And you know, he and I dated, you know, personally for the whole year that we were on tour, which was wonderful to have a companion on tip. Because, despite the fact that you're around, you know, a company of 50 technicians and actors orchestra traveling around. Sometimes it can get a little isolating and lonely, because you're, you know, you're never going home. You really don't have days off, because we would fly on our days off. So that that was a very nice relationship. He and I are still really good friends. But so which came first? You know, Did I, did I invest in the character, Misty police, because of the actor. But I think from just simply the characters, I think Tugger is very confident in his abilities to, you know, be a ladies man, you know, Tom COVID About Town, and he knows he's, you know, good looking. He knows he's kind of sexy. He knows he's funny, and he doesn't really. He's kind of bored with a lot of other characters, I think, but most awfully he's had and he's magical. His costume lights up. He flies in from the, you know, the rafters. He can make explosions happen on Chase. And. In the end, he is able to, you know, bring Deuteronomy back. And so I think that that's just, I think that it takes that type of character to really impress Tucker. That explains why he would be so into mistoolies. Yeah,

[25:15] Mike Abrams: I think it's, it's fun for me, because there's, like, it's such a lure of, are they together? Are they not? Are they best friends? Are they actually dating? And then to hear you guys dated off stage, you know? Yeah, what makes ads adds to it, you know? It's just kind of like a piece of that puzzle. So everyone who argues and on on the behalf here is more fuel to that fire. Yeah.

[25:34] Speaker 3: Also, I think both as a character, Tugger and as an actor, Stan as primarily a singer, I was always, I think I mentioned earlier that the best answer is always caught my eye. I just thought that is something. And sometimes they would say, Oh, I would give anything to be able to sing like you. But I knew that I would love to be able to do those turns in second. I mean, I've never been able to do that. So anyone that could, you know, draw my attention like that, as as the actor stand, and as the character Tugger. I think, you know, we were naturally attracted to that type of talent. Yeah,

[26:09] Mike Abrams: that's so fun. Um, I want to hear some stories from the road, because I want to start with Atlantic City, because it seems like, you know, you did two full years of this, like there's some chaos that goes around, like things don't go right? There's some nuances. So let's start with Atlantic City. But what were some of the memorable moments from your two years? Okay,

[26:27] Speaker 3: well, Atlantic City, I've heard you mention, you know, that it was a little chaotic, or that was a lot of craziness. And I don't remember that exactly that way, except just there was a lot going on. I remember we were exhausted from, you know, a month of rehearsals. And then we have in New York, then we come into Atlantic City. We are, that's the first time that we're actually, you know, staying and it was a nice hotel, but we're staying in the hotel room, and that, you know, you have to get used to that. And then I, for some reason, thought, oh, once we get there, we're just going to have time off. We're going to be able to, you know, go out to eat and go to the beach. No, no. We had rehearsals every day and or fight rehearsals, or flight rehearsals, or whatever rehearsals there may be that we were, they were experimenting with new ways to take the orchestrations, new ways to present that. We have a lot of rehearsals with that system before we went out, you know, actually on tour. So I remember that as being a very fun time, but I don't remember it being that chaotic, but it was a lot of work. Then we'd go on tour. And my biggest memory of the first several months of actually being on the road was that we played Nashville, I think, October, November, of that year, so fairly early on in the tour. And I had just moved from Nashville in March, so when I came back, you know, this was a tremendous like, first big role for me, and it happened, I think, because of good timing, the age I was, it happened very quickly. And so there was a lot of hype around me coming back to Nashville, and it kind of made me it kind of freaked me out a little bit. I remember getting up at like, four in the morning and being whisked off in a limousine to go do the talk shows and go to the radio and then go sing with this band, and they had given us a certain amount of media training, and I thought it was very fun, but I also was still just very much getting used to playing that character, which a couple months prior, had been a little bit overwhelming for me. So add that to the big hometown crowd. And, you know, being on the doing all the advertisements, and it was a little overwhelming. And then one of the shows, one of the performances in Nashville, you know, Grizabella hits the high note. She gets chosen, and the tire floats up, and then the heavenly wagon floats down. And that didn't work in one of the performances in Nashville. So I had a house full Tennessee performing arts center of you know, the hometown crowd, and there was a major technical kerfuffle, as it were, in the show. And I remember that kind of throwing me for a loop a little bit. It was, it was very nerve wracking.

[29:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, you're essentially the face of the show at that point in town, and in that particular city,

[29:30] Speaker 3: I was, yeah, yeah. That's, you know, that's, that's a great problem to have. I'm really planning. But that is an early memory that that really stands out. Then we shipped it to the West Coast. I think we were in California on 911 and that really changed one how we traveled. I don't think we changed the schedule of the show because we were scheduled to be on the west. HOST, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, for a couple months there and so. But rather than fly, we bust, which, you know, was fine. It was all, you know, it was relatively local. And I remember the first time, pretty sure, the first time we flew after September 11, we flew out of San Francisco. And I'm someone mentioned on a previous episode, but we were always flagged for lots of extra searches because it was such a large group. And yeah, we were flying one way, and so the airport days were hardly a day off. It was very, very taxing.

[30:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I I want to hear a little bit about when you switch between not you switch, but, like, between year one and two, you haven't. You definitely have some turnover at that point, because you have, like, it's usually a one year contract, and you get a lot of people that do multiple years, but you get a bunch of new cats to work with. So yes, when you like, how much of the relationships that you played with year one cats did you try to bring into year two? Or how much did you try to create as new with the new performers?

[31:05] Speaker 3: Well, I remember we tacked year two. I don't even sure. No, I think we stopped performing for a couple of weeks, but we did the new rehearsal process, or combined the casts in Biloxi, Mississippi again, with an abbreviated version of the show. And I remember really loving that process, because I had gotten my, you know, Tugger legs under me, so to speak. Yeah, I felt I knew that I was, you know, I was been told that I was doing really well. I, you know, we would get reviews, and I things were going well, but it's a tiring, you know, touring is very tiring, and this was like new energy all of a sudden coming in. And so I really enjoyed it. I know some of the other carryovers from year one, some of them maybe wanted things to be exactly like it was the first year. And but I've always been someone that kind of enjoys that type of, that climate of change, just personally. So I remember just being kind of enriched by this new energy. And I don't really remember trying to thrust upon any of the new cast old relationships, unless it's something that is, you know, dictated by the piece itself. Yes, they're like the Tugger mestophales pairing. Yeah, we there has to be some relationship there or there. It just makes no sense. But then, of course, when your boyfriend leaves and you have someone else and that you do not know, and Ryan Jackson and I grew to be dear friends, and we are still friends today. That was my second the most awful, easier too, but that's I was tried to be careful not to force anything that was already there. So at first, I'm just making sure my vocals are solid for his, you know, big number. And then eventually we've got to be, you know, very, very good friends.

[33:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. It's, it is kind of an interesting piece, because it is, yeah, you have the almost, I would say, a rhythm at that point, like at the end of the year, because you're, you're, it's still new. It's theater changes every day, but you've kind of got, you've got the most part, and you're improving a little bit as you need to go. But then you almost start fresh. You do, it's the same show, but it's not because it's all new people. And, yeah, it's not like a swing coming on for a day or two, which gives you kind of a refreshing but it's a whole new group that's going to do it slightly different. I'm sure they make some tweaks between year one and two as well.

[33:30] Speaker 3: A little bit I remember, as with I have now, I now know that with different iterations of the show, like I've mentioned with the video the 98 you know, big video, and Tucker is a much more dance heavy track than any of the product. Well, the revival he was had a big dance track too, but previous, the original choreography, not as much. And that there are tweaks like that. I think that they kind of morph the characters to Really struf Show off the, you know, each actor strong suit, I think so. I always, you know, as I said, like that kind of change in dynamic. But there are sometimes, you know, if you're doing eight shows a week, I was one that really, really tried hard not to call out of shows. And sometimes it's easier to if this could go just like those last three or four shows, this would be so much easier, yeah, than to be, you know, have a swing come in, which we know now, I mean, those invaluable parts of any company or the swings, yeah, but, and some of the swings were, ended up being some of my best friends on tour, too. But sometimes it was easier just, oh, I wish it was just the same so I don't really have to think about it, but that's not going to be the way it is. So here we go.

[34:48] Mike Abrams: Was there any in the two years city, excluding Nashville, that really stood out? Or was like, Oh, this is like, either really powerful cats fans like this. This group is, like, really obsessed. With it or a fun town to be have some time off in, like, where, what stood out to you on tour?

[35:07] Speaker 3: You know, I came into cats at a really great time, even though it was tour five, I think it had been off, off Broadway for a couple years, and this was a big remounting. So where previous tours maybe didn't have the best schedule. Our schedule was phenomenal. That first year, we played all the first run cities, and would sit down for two three weeks at a time. I remember Chicago being a tremendous city for us, because when you are there, you know for multiple weeks, that means that you actually do have a true day off, maybe even two, where you're not traveling. You don't have to pack. You actually can sleep late. Chicago, Los Angeles was a tremendous amount of fun. I think that was not until year two, though, New Orleans, I was always I grew up traveling a lot. Both my parents were public high school teachers, so we had the summers off, and so we always traveled. I was very lucky to been able to do that as a kid, and so tour life really suited me in that way. So once the show got up, I felt confident with it, then we were able to, you know, enjoy Denver or enjoy Miami, Canada. We did. I remember Montreal being super fun, because Montreal, you know, it's kind of almost Europe, but not so that was a lot of

[36:28] Mike Abrams: fun. So you mentioned Denver, how's the, how's the, how's the altitude

[36:32] Speaker 3: that they had oxygen backstage. That's, um, who knew, you know, yeah, but I, I distinctly remember that, and it being a, you know, great, you know, performing venue, but there were oxygen masks for you backstage that I made use of sometimes, I think by that time, I don't remember where in the calendar that fell, but it was my I remember my stamina being strong by that point in the in the tour, so not having to rely on it. But I thought that's very interesting. They have, they have oxygen for

[37:07] Mike Abrams: us. Ready? Yeah, it's needed. I just got back from vacation there and, like, I couldn't walk up the stairs. Yeah, so I can't imagine doing two and a half hours. But yeah, okay, let's do some rapid fire. Okay, if you could go on the show tomorrow for any character, forget if it's male female, just like if you just could do one track, you could dance it, you could sing it. Who would you want to go on

[37:31] Speaker 3: as a two part answer for that one is, it's been, you know, so many years since I played Tugger, and I still very much identify with the Tugger in a certain way. I would love to have another crack at that. I don't know that my, you know, my body these days, I might could do it, but it that would be really, really fun. Because I think I could, know I could bring yet another level to it. With that said, I would love to play Grizabella. I mean, it's the role, man. I mean, you're on stage 13 minutes. You're always in the spotlight. You go to the heavy side layer. That's the role, yeah.

[38:10] Speaker 3: it would be fun. I think I have the tremendous respect for the character and also the actors, two actors that I worked with that play the Buster for Jones, Gus, growl, Tiger track, such a challenging role there. And I do I think that would be a lot of fun to play too, because it's, it's a big challenge that one.

[38:30] Mike Abrams: What is your favorite? Well, who are your favorite? Emily's favorite characters from the show, so cats, let's ignore people.

[38:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, not, not the actors. And I love their number, but rumble teaser just kind of got on my nerves. And I works as it's not the actresses at all, because that takes a tremendous talent too, probably the most, you know, aerobically in shape, singers, dancers there, but I Tugger didn't have a lot of time for ruffle teaser, okay, and favorite, I'm going to say I really, really liked monkey strap. I think I was Tugger was always a little bit jealous of muckerstrap, and that, I don't think, translated to me personally, being jealous of the actors that I played opposite, but I think that's a great role. It's kind of pleasantly understated. You're in charge. You're a tremendous dancer, very statuesque on stage, but some you could leave the show without knowing what your name was. And there's something about that that I like. So anyway, mucus, I love how

[39:44] Mike Abrams: I love how tuggery answers, those are, like those were straight, like they influenced your opinion. So hard. Yeah, favorite song from the show

[39:53] Speaker 3: I really like, skimble, Shanks, the red one cat that was from a kid that I really, really loved.

[39:59] Mike Abrams: And that was in your book.

[40:02] Speaker 3: Yes, it was in the vocal selections book I would play on the piano. And the funny story about skimble Shanks is and high school, I had no business doing this, but a tour of Les Mis came through Nashville and they had open auditions. And so I was a very, you know, good high school actor, singer, but I probably did not have the chops to audition for an adult, you know, second national, first second national tour company, but I went and what did I sing for Les Mis, but skimble, Shanks, the railway cat? Wow, yeah, not sure that was the right choice. But anyway, such didn't,

[40:38] Mike Abrams: didn't work out,

[40:42] Mike Abrams: I, I it's I love hearing that, because did you like, literally have skimble shanks and memory back to back in that book? Like those are two very different paces of songs to play

[40:52] Speaker 3: I remember. So in the I probably could find that somewhere, but, yeah, memory was in it. Skimble Shanks up up up to the heavy side layer was in it, the naming of, excuse me, oh, Deuteronomy song at the end of the show,

[41:11] Mike Abrams: the addressing, addressing this, not

[41:13] Speaker 3: the name, the addressing of the cats. That was in it. It was just, I'm not sure how they picked the like, eight or 10 songs that was in that book, but that's, yeah, that's probably what I knew first, probably whatever

[41:24] Mike Abrams: they thought bet was best on piano, right? Like, if it's a bug. But okay, so you said, I, you know you said that you're a teacher. Your parents are teachers. I always ask one fun one. So which guy do you think would be the best teacher, high school teacher? That's

[41:38] Speaker 3: a good question. Jenny, any dots? So

[41:42] Mike Abrams: that's, that was my first thought. I actually, I love jelly alarm as the answer here. I think she'd be very kind teacher. She

[41:48] Speaker 3: does have the demeanor of a teacher, yeah, that was thinking Jenny, any dots, because that would be a very, like, vibrant, you know, teacher, yeah, some of the high energy. And then she teaches the mice. Yep, she's

[42:03] Mike Abrams: already she's got experience. She's experienced. Yeah, yes, she's okay, most important question, so I've argued hundreds of episodes now, why I don't think Grizabella is a choice. Do you want to defend Grizabella? Or who are you stand picking as your Jellicle choice? Okay,

[42:19] Speaker 3: so the Southern, southern boy in me says, there's always a saying in the south, you know, the higher the hair, the closer to God, right? So I thought, you know, for this platform, the higher the belt, the closer to Heaven she could be. So I think that's a justification. You know, she's got that big E flat, or E natural, whatever it is, in big memory. But after thinking about it, I think, and you've made the argument, but I can't get around that. It's a very solid argument that, you know, Gus should, should have been the one. You know he's about to leave us anyway. He needs that. You know that afterlife, he needs to be reborn again. And so that's who's gonna get my vote is Gus.

[43:09] Mike Abrams: So you're going Gus, okay, I'm going Gus team. Gus. Love it. I love it. I do like the idea, the higher, the higher the hair, the closer the guy. I like that, the higher the belt. But I do like, I honestly think that that was part of a version of that is how I first started this show, which was, like, it's a competition, it's an it's a performing competition, who was the most fun, who's gonna get voted on by America, or whoever. And

[43:32] Speaker 3: I love that idea that you brought up about, and I think that could be, like, commercially, very viable actually, is that if there's a way for the audience to decide who's going to I mean, it's a little bit of a gimmick, but I'm ready.

[43:48] Mike Abrams: I'm slowly trying to convince anybody to do that. It's not hard. The technology is there. Everyone's got their phone in their pocket. Yeah, it's it wouldn't, not be difficult to add that layer or, I mean, even if you just had a not even audience, you could do by cheering. You could buy, you know, you could do a lot of different ways to make it more fun, and yet it but if you threw this in a regional production or a high school production, or someplace else where you've got, you know, you're keeping 99% of the core of the show right, and then all you're changing is just, you know, you still sing memory, right? Still, you still have her welcomed back. But when it comes time to when she gets walked up through the crowd, you know, through all the different cats, you pause, and that's where you ask the question, and then, you know, someone else goes up. Yeah, and no, I mean different every

[44:36] Speaker 3: night, yeah. There's something to that. I think that could extend the life of a, you know, a regional production of this. Of course, I think, you know, Mr. Lloyd Webber is probably rolling his eyes right about now, but maybe, maybe not. I don't know. He's a, he's a great businessman, so

[44:50] Mike Abrams: I feel like he's open to a lot of stuff. I mean, he's definitely taken some risks in the show. They've made changes. They did some stuff does not work. They've made some other changes that have been really smart. They made. Them that some fans hate, some fans love. You know, they've definitely moved throughout the 40 plus years. So I don't think it's out of realm, but it is definitely more changed than, like, making Tugger hip hop or contemporary that, yeah, other ones you know, or moving the the growl Tiger, you know differently because of, you know, the some of the insensitivities there. So I don't think, like, I don't know, I'm hopeful. I also love the idea of it being a tour, because can you imagine your friends and family in Nashville? Yes, you're going up that home, that whole week. Yes, yeah, that week. I think that adds such a fun layer, too, for the performers. Of like, it kind of keeps you on your toes and but to your point earlier, of like, some days you just really wish for the please just be the same, like this. That would never be the same if you did it that way. Yeah, that is, uh, that's fun. Okay, so I've got another Gus vote that always makes me happy. Yeah, I love kind of asking this question. Now, let's take Grizabella and Gus off the table. Okay, let's say it's next year. They like, let's pretend that they're, they're out. Who's going after them? Who's the first choice after those two? I

[46:07] Speaker 3: mean, I gotta throw my hat in there for Tugger

[46:11] Mike Abrams: Tugger time. Okay? I

[46:12] Speaker 3: mean, he's, he's probably been a little too mischievous beyond, you know, his, his, his years, and he's, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna wear out his stay, wear out his welcome, maybe a little bit. I think he could get a vote. There's also something about, even though, I think the Cassandra is kind of like, you know, there's, she's so she's going, she's going to be there forever. There's just such a mysterious, like element to her. I don't think she really needs it, but somehow I could see Cassandra being the chosen one. Okay,

[46:44] Mike Abrams: so she does not have many votes. No, no. I mean,

[46:49] Speaker 3: she needs them. Because, yeah, so, you know, she's got her own thing going on. But something about that character I could see being raised to that next level. I don't know. Yeah,

[46:59] Mike Abrams: it's pretty much a two cat race. It's, it really is. It's a guest Grizabella debate at this point, with a few few votes here and there, for people that are really passionate about All right, hold on my my cat was ready to go, and I'm like, Ah, I don't think anybody else is voting for this, except for you defending your cat, yeah, but that makes it fun, because I, for me, I need to vote. That's not Grizabella is is fun for me, you've

[47:22] Speaker 3: spoken about like the cats fans, you know, the like professional cats fans. And that was, that was a total shocker to me when we got, you know, out on the road. But I would be very interested to hear what they would have to say, you know, but they would how they would answer that question, because I know they would have an opinion. I've

[47:40] Mike Abrams: talked to a good amount of them now, and they're pretty split between the GUS Grizabella, too, very heavy team, Team Gus out there. And then there's some very traditional where I've noticed that they have stronger opinions, is usually on the choreography between joy and Lynn and Andy Bucha, Bucha. Or, okay, there's some like, adamant that this relationship between this cat should be this way, like, it's usually like, little nuances like that. But they're so they're fun, like, they're such fun, such a fun fan. They're passionate that they just kind of love the show. And a lot of times it's like, what connected to them either as a kid or, like, what was that first moment that they like, became a fan? And that is usually a thing that they're like, no, don't change that. And that changes per person, which is fun, I think, like, it's a healthy fandom, and it's a healthy group of like, respecting the like, nuance of the world that was built. And so it's always been kind of fun to hear the different things. It's fun for me too, because occasionally I will have a very vastly different opinion, and then also I'll get like, a couple messages being like, whoa, wait a second, that's wrong. And I'm like, You're wrong. Man, yeah, is it wrong? Like, there's no, there's no documentation on a lot of this stuff here. So there's been a couple times I'm like, Yeah, I probably am wrong here. But that's, I think that's fine. Like, I love adding to the story of these characters that that clearly doesn't exist, but could exist if you had another ball or had another you know what's the next day look like? Yes,

[49:01] Speaker 3: yes. So I'm curious. Is what made you interested in this subject?

[49:07] Mike Abrams: So I saw it in 2016 Okay, when the revival happened on Broadway, I just moved to New York, so I lived in New York for maybe a month. I think at that point, I was living in the theater district, and I had not seeing like I had grown up my mom's music teacher. I grew up playing sports. You can see all sports behind me for the you know, when the recording I didn't grow up going to a lot of theater in Indiana. I went up to like that five shows a year, or something that comes through. But, okay, I saw a lot of musicals, but I just saw them. I didn't know, and I haven't seen a lot of stuff. I didn't seem like a lot of the classical things that you all, like everyone, think you need to see. So I got to New York and realized I could go on a Tuesday, right after work, and it's just down the street, and it's a $25 lottery, right? Or stuff like that. I'm like, why am I not going to see some of these things? Like, why can't I mix that in with a Rangers game? And like, I've got all you can you have, yeah? Like, I have access to. Do the best of the best, you know, like, incredible performers doing something live, and a feat that I have no ability to do. So I started going to more things, and I saw a preview of cats, because I'd never seen it. Didn't know anything about it. A friend gave got me a preview tickets and and I went. And I kind of had, like, one of those moments of, like, overwhelmed, what? What did I watch awesome and I had, you know, at that point, I was overwhelmed by New York in general. Like, just the subway was overwhelming. Like, I'm from Indiana, like I'm not from a small town, like I'm from Indianapolis, like, it's a normal sized city, but New York's a different beast, like, it's a whole different city to live in. And so I just was, like, kind of having fun with, what is that experience like, of a new job, a new city, and then all these other new experiences. And I was sharing some of that back home, and I kind of wrote and made fun of cats, and I made the joke that I thought it was the X Factor, because it was Leona Lewis, and that's what started this. And then I kind of didn't think about the show again until that trailer for the 2019 movie came out. And I made the joke that I thought Grisel is the wrong choice. And I said, Welcome to my TED talk. And I kind of posted on social media, and then the network that I am a part of was like, Hey, you should make this into a podcast. We're building out more, and it's the beginning. And I originally said 10 episodes of explaining why each cat leading up to the movie did not know that that that movie was gonna be as big of a disaster and like story as it was, right? And I started meeting people who were in the 2016 show, and I started asking them questions of like, here's what I can't fill in the blanks from YouTube, like, what else is like? Here's what I read online. How did you think about that? And it's become my favorite part is now I've interviewed 25 plus productions and, wow, different cats from all over the world. And did not realize how deep this went. Like, you know, I wasn't the super fans. I wasn't a fan. I just, I just knew about it, and now I've kind of become enthralled with the the nuances of that, like, all the different pieces of this, and the fact that, like, you know, you mentioned Tucker, is that there's a spike in right? And there's like, you know, there's all, there's a Gilbert in Japan, and there's this. There's so many weird pieces to it, in a fun way, that I've been almost feeling like I've become a historian here documenting this. And that's what's I find interesting and fascinating, and why I love these conversations, and I will keep recording as long as cast members still want to talk to me, and I've got a lot fair enough scheduled so people are enjoying it. I hope people continue to enjoy it. And I think what I'll maybe stop, and what I've kind of like my goal is, is if I can get somebody to do the Edwin drew style regional production, where I can go in and say, All right, let's do a different version. Then I feel like I might, I might have accomplished

[52:46] Mike Abrams: I'm getting, I've got Gus closer to grisbo. Grisbo still has the lead, but right now, Gus is closer, and I know that the most recent tours and regional productions are at least actually talking about this, which I don't think was a question people thought about me, yeah. So I'm like, All right, I'm slowly, I'm slowly getting there one day. I'm hoping, you know Mr. Andrew Lloyd Webber gives me a call and says, All right, what are you thinking about here? But he's a little busy right now.

[53:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, he's, he's got a couple things going on still, yeah, couple things going on and, yeah,

[53:15] Mike Abrams: but this has been super fun. I appreciate you sharing and telling your story. I've had hearing about your Tugger and your time on the road, yeah, for sure,

[53:25] Mike Abrams: and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast breaks on the cast. Cash fee to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tik, Tok and threads as the wrong cat died. Or check our website the wrong cat died. Calm. You.