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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:28] Mike Abrams: to the Ron cat died, the podcast breakdown, the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have their amazing guests. We have been going back and forth, and I have been promised a lot of fun stories. He was Mungo Jerry on the US national tour, five in 2010 and 2011 and also performed a summer stock version of this as well. So welcome will Porter and thank you for joining

[0:47] Speaker 2: me. Oh my god, Mike, thank you so much. And I, I'm so glad that I now know that our our tour, had a number associated to it. We didn't know. I didn't know it was number five.

[0:58] Mike Abrams: I don't think anybody realized any of this? Because the numbers also make no sense, because there was no one, really. And then two was LA, which didn't tour. And then three was what I would call the first, like, real tour. And then your tour went on forever. Yes, if I went on for a long time, yes, it did, but yeah, so I this is just so I can reference people into at least, what the general idea of when you did it.

[1:20] Speaker 2: No, I think it's great. It's, it's just, it's just just, I'm like, Who, who decided this? It was Andrew.

[1:26] Mike Abrams: Cats fan Wikipedia. Oh, cats fan Wikipedia, they, they've decided most of the stuff, which means I could go change it tomorrow if I wanted to, but that's where we're at. So let's start at the beginning of your cat's history. I love always hearing your first interaction with

[1:40] Speaker 2: the show. Oh, yeah, my first interaction. What happened? It happened in Boston, Boston, yeah, I grew up outside of Boston in Acton, Massachusetts, and I remember I was, I think, either four or five, and I went to see cats at the Schubert theater in Boston. Happy Pride. I remember that it was the Schubert theater. Ding, ding, ding, ding. So I remember seeing that production, and of course, as a child, being completely frightened, because the show begins like a haunted house begins, yeah, and then everything that followed. I vaguely remember Macavity, electrocuting, making, making electrical shocks, upstage that and that. And I think back in tour number three, that's probably what it was. I think they had like Pyro, which we did not have on Troika.

[2:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah, Boston had had the full, full effects for you. Though, I wonder you say that though, because I, like, I have always argued. I don't think it's a show for kids, because it's kind of dark. It's very dirty, like, if you really dig into it, and then green eyes scared the daylights out of me as an adult. It's,

[3:04] Speaker 2: it's meant to be terrifying. I think, I mean, if and when, when you talk to the directors, and when the directors are teaching you, like, What the How to bring the audience into this show, it's like, oh, it is a haunted house. Um,

[3:23] Speaker 2: it was, it was a slow burn, though, after that, you know, and definitely, definitely sparked something. And then cut to, you know, high school, junior high, I forget, with me and my VHS and my mom's hair ties and her makeup, and just like queening out in my basement to that video that, I mean, that was formative,

[3:48] Mike Abrams: so you didn't see it the first time, and say, I've got to do this, like it's the number one thing, and then blow through the VHS and later on that you realize it

[3:56] Speaker 2: was later on. I think when I first saw it, I was like, I have to escape this situation.

[3:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna haunt my nightmares for the next like month, and I will eventually reciprocate that to children all over the country. Correct,

[4:08] Speaker 2: correct. So yeah, I mean, that was my first brush with it. Definitely the the 98 VHS, PBS, whatever that that recording of the of the show was, was formative in all of my interests in theater. So,

[4:30] Mike Abrams: okay, yeah, so then you, you book it in summer stock. Oh, my God, I think you said 2007 2007

[4:38] Speaker 2: the year was 2007 The place was New London, New Hampshire, and if any of my friends who were involved with the show were listening, I tip my hat to you. Today, we did a production of Cats that recruited the idea of a boy, much like Alice in Wonderland, falling into the world of Jellicle cats. Ads, and I am here to tell you, in front of God and everyone, that that is a bad idea, it does not work, and it made the fellow, the gentleman who played the boy, very upset, because I think he wanted to be Rum Tum Tugger, but so and the show started in a classroom where this boy was the teacher was very frustrated. Spoiler alert, the teacher was also Grizabella and and like, I guess, he got a detention. There was no text, it was all pantomime. And then he tears down the classroom, and you finally hear the data, and then we're in the junkyard.

[5:43] Speaker 3: I love this. It was, I love any version. I've never heard a wild version. Oh,

[5:50] Speaker 2: it was insane. Matt densky who, well, yeah, Matt densky, who is now on the wicked tour, riding around the stage on a little scooter or turning into a tin man, depending on what day it is, he played Macavity, and I think I had to, I had to chase him onto a trampoline, holding a fishing pole with a sparkly object to catch him so we could put him in a box. Um, there were, there were so many things that shouldn't have happened. So, all right,

[6:18] Mike Abrams: I got a lot of follow up questions. Oh yeah. Start with a couple, Oh, yeah. So this, the premise was that you're gonna almost Alice in Wonderland, fall into the Jellicle Tribe, but from a school, yes, and the boy, was it, was it a cat, or was it just a separate character? Like, was it a certain like, was it supposed to be monkeys trap? Or

[6:35] Speaker 2: was it just, no, it was anybody? Absolutely not anywhere in the script, if you, if you really know the show, um, as as I do, I you could posit that the role of the boy is really the role of the audience, where you when you're doing the show as you Know it is, typically has been done for decades. You come to understand that the audience is the intruder. So rather than having the audience be the intruder, we were like, oh, let's just put a boy on stage. Let's put a young non equity actor on stage and

[7:16] Speaker 3: scare him. Was it boy, or was it cat?

[7:19] Speaker 2: It was a boy. He was a boy. It was a boy, not even dressed up as a cat, not at all. No, I think he had a red t shirt and blue shorts. Ugh. Hey, yeah. So

[7:27] Mike Abrams: as a school with one child, and Grizabella is the teacher, correct? So that's its own thing. You're being taught an actual boy is being taught by a cat,

[7:36] Speaker 2: yeah? Well, Grizabella at the beginning of the show, the teacher was just the teacher, and I'm telling not and not okay. And then, because at the end, you know, Grizabella went to the heavy side layer in a way that we could afford, which was which involved purple fabric. And and then the classroom comes back and like the little like kids that they recruited to be, the other students come back, and the desks come back, and we're all singing, a dressing of a cat, back up, and Isabella comes on in the school teachers. This is too funny, in the school teacher's costume, covering her face with a book. And then we're like, uh, cat. And she slowly brings the book down from her face and brings her finger to her lips to say, it was me all along,

[8:32] Mike Abrams: so that she's being reborn into a teacher. Yes,

[8:37] Speaker 2: yes, which is, there must be some kind of statement there about, you know, paying your teachers more. But I don't know what it is. Yeah,

[8:45] Mike Abrams: that is, I okay. I'm fascinated by, did that non equity actor get to go, like, did they go get in a cat costume after like, were they a character like, he

[8:59] Speaker 2: got to be in the, in the, in the, like, New London parade that we did. I think he, we put him in full cap, because he was very upset. He was like, I wanted to be a cat. I don't want to be like, yeah, like,

[9:11] Mike Abrams: How's, how's he in the playbill? Like, is he listed as just like school child? Boy, boy, number one. Boy,

[9:16] Speaker 2: no, just there was no number two. Just for he was the number one.

[9:20] Speaker 3: Do you still have a copy of that play bail? Someone, I

[9:23] Speaker 2: have a copy of the DVD? I Okay,

[9:27] Mike Abrams: yeah, this comes out. I would like to, I would like to show a copy of boy, yes. And I'd almost, I really would love to talk to boy. So we're gonna, after I will,

[9:36] Speaker 2: I will connect you. He does, he does real estate now in in Atlanta.

[9:43] Mike Abrams: Well, this will be, that will be, I always look for the stories I've never heard, and hearing an Alice in Wonderland Boy version of cats is definitely one I had not heard. Yeah,

[9:53] Speaker 2: I think there's a reason for that. Yeah. Okay,

[9:56] Mike Abrams: well, I want to continue on this before we go to the tour, because. Is, you've promised me stories. What other like, that's a wild one. What other things happened during that tour? Like, what are the memorable moments that we got to document in this podcast?

[10:07] Speaker 2: God, the tour was so wild. Um, in the best, really, in the best way, as, kind of, like, the first thing, first thing that you really do out of college. I had done right right before I had done, like a very low budget tour of Bye Bye Birdie with some fabulous people. And we were definitely broken by the end in more ways than one. But, and I remember, I remember getting back and there was a an audition for the cats tour. And I was like, Oh, my, I can't I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. It was on my birthday, and I remember it going so well, and didn't get it. I was like, God. And then cut to a year later, I went to the same audition, and then that I got it. So that was, that was a big yay part. Amazing. The i i ended up, I mean, the stories, the stories that I will tell you, some are crazy, and some are just like formative is, and that's crazy in its own way. But I think the biggest thing that I remember in rehearsals for this wild project was our director, Richard Stafford and all of the like, quick views that he had come up with in his like 30 year tenure of cats to get us to be feline creatures. And they were, they make me cackle to this day, he would tell us what, while we were doing choreography, certain choreography, he'd be like, I need you to be stark and pagan, Stark and pagan. And I was like, What the fuck I Stark and pagan. And, you know, you know, my only real experience with the show at that point had been doing it with, you know, the boy that fell into the world of Jellicle cats in New Hampshire. So I was like, pagan what? And I think he, like, he talked about, like our little pink paws while we were on the floor, basically doing a master's level movement class as as cats like, maybe, I don't know it was, maybe it was like a method acting class. I don't know it was very weird. Chairs were thrown. We would be like, in our cat like, cat modes, getting into cat for two hours before we start dancing and like, we're sniffing around, and then he'd throw a chair, and we'd all be like, boom. Like, it was that thinking about those moments in Nola studios rest in peace are hilarious to me. The

[12:47] Mike Abrams: felonity School in general is something that, like, I have a very traditional nine to five type of job, and every time I talk to performers, I'm like, your job just seems wild. And it's like, no, it's, it's pretty, you know, like, it's, there's some fun parts, and it's just different. But then I hear these stories, I'm like, No, how do you explain that one? Like, how do you explain felinity school? It's, it's crazy that that that's part of it, but it also is what brings the show to light, because you get to to really experience that, and that's what makes the show so real.

[13:17] Speaker 2: And it's like, you have to get a bunch of people who like baseline most like 90% of them are dancers or can dance. You have to get them all living and moving in the same world and acting at the same time, which you know, and everybody has different experiences with all of that coming in. So the fluenity School is very important. What

[13:42] Mike Abrams: other so you've got, you've already told me about a couple, and they're coming. So I want to hear some of these stories. Oh yeah, actually, we'll get to, I want to hear about your parody video at some point, the

[13:50] Speaker 2: tour, the tour, I feel like, I feel like, on the tour, I learned how to be and not be a professional actor, like, really, really, really, really, we opened in Kansas City, which is funny because I ended up getting my master's degree, uh, you know, in walking distance from where we opened cats. Um, so that was crazy. Um, the there, there were so many, oh, my God. Like in we went to Hawaii, like, what we went to, we got to do cats in Hawaii. That's so weird and awesome. And we got to spend New Year's with Chef Morimoto, and he would sing memory to us as he was chopping things. Like, we were like, This is a fever dream. We are non union actors in, like, our nicest clothes that we could find at H M, and we're like in Honolulu with these people who probably could buy us, um, if, if they wanted to. So that was, that was crazy. I have a memory of, I all of the. I'm trying to think of a memory like of in in the show, oh, I've got one. I've got one. Um, let's hear it. We so, you know, we were the second to the last year of that tour, and God bless it. The set was inflatable, the people were tired, and the and the itinerary was unhinged. But we, we spent a one nighter at a school, and it was not uncommon for us to play a school auditorium. This school, this school auditorium was small, and, you know, there's all kinds of contingencies for different size stages that we go to. The set is inflatable so we can, you know, pack it into a middle school, which we did. And, of course, I know you talked to Lucy Horton because, because I listened to the episode, um, that, that weird UFO thing that Grizabella leaves on. Um, that was absolutely not happening in that situation. There was no way so in that, in that circumstance, chrysopelle just stays on the the tire and faces upstage and looks wistfully at the Jellicle Moon, which I don't think even fit on that stage anyway. But the real kicker of that whole experience was that our dressing room was the school library, and we are not the locker room. No, no no, like gym locker Oh no, no, no no, the library. So we are in full cat, mincing around, terrorizing this library, taking all the pictures we can because we knew that someday we'd be on a podcast and we'd have to show you, but the pictures are crazy that it's like we're all holding books like Grizabella grizzabel is behind the desk like clutching her head. It's really funny.

[17:00] Mike Abrams: Did you have like, an Aha, there of this is like the repeat of your summer stock. A little bit. You went from class to class, and you know, Grizabella is behind the book. She's about to start the show. And yeah, exactly. Read the addressing of cats at the end. And you're absolutely and

[17:16] Speaker 2: absolutely here we are. Yeah, you were just missing. Boy, Truly, truly, where was he? He was far from he was far from us. He was, get it away from me. Um, okay,

[17:28] Mike Abrams: let's hear this parody story. I'm ready to hear the the parody video you all made.

[17:33] Speaker 2: Well, it was, it was sort of a parody video, sort of not we we made an ASP. C, yeah, I guess that's a parody video we made. We parodied the ASPCA Sarah McLachlan advertisement with our physical therapist from Columbia named Olga, and Olga was the queen of our tour. She Her hands were were like inches into us in ways that we never could have expected. That is an intimate relationship. But she, she played Sarah McLachlan and and we were all the rescued animals. And we have, like, there's a clip of our Victoria eating, like, trying to eat instant coffee from a spoon, like Mr. Mustafa Lee's is tied in, like, I don't know, something that we could find backstage somewhere, and, and something, something that would, this is funny. We had some swings, like, put on a bunch of, like, their swing makeup, and then they got in trouble. Because,

[18:36] Speaker 3: wow, oh yeah. It's a show. Show the plot,

[18:40] Speaker 2: they're not, no, it's not even that. They're like, you're using, you're using company resources. I was like, shut up, that's fine,

[18:47] Speaker 3: okay, yeah, um, but they don't have the budget for you. I know

[18:51] Speaker 2: the budget, the budget, the budget, but, um, sorry, Troy, go. But I it was, it was very funny, and I still have it on, um, on my external hard drives. It's waiting. It's waiting to make its way onto the internet again. So,

[19:06] Mike Abrams: so if I'm, if I'm keeping track right now, we've got two. One is we have to figure out, take clips of the intro of your summer stock, yes, on the internet, so you can see boy 100% the classroom, yep. And then we've got, now the video. We've got the playbill picture so we can see how they listed. Boy, yeah, yeah. And then we've got your Sarah McLachlan video, parody video, absolutely. This is all going to be being published at the same time here. We got to put all this out there. We got this episode comes out,

[19:35] Speaker 2: Mike, we have a lot to do. Yeah. I feel like a big

[19:39] Mike Abrams: This podcast is just uncovering random parts of history of the show and slowly getting in onto the internet for people to see. Because I would have, I mean, I feel like I've heard everything at this point, but, but a classroom style, Alison style, Boy version of summer stock is not anyone I was expecting. God

[19:57] Speaker 2: bless. Michelle tattenbaum, our. Director of that production, because I think she definitely had the moment like, well after where she was like, What? What did it? What did we do? Why did we do this?

[20:09] Mike Abrams: But I'm all for it. I like a show that's been around that long. Absolutely, it's been running forever. Making some minor tweaks to it is not going to dramatically change the outcome of what most people are going to see, which is incredible dancing, incredible singing, and some songs they know. So you can tweak a little bit of the beginning and ending and still get the essence of what everyone is there to

[20:29] Speaker 2: see. And those New Hampshire people got an essence, absolutely, they did. Absolutely, yeah,

[20:34] Mike Abrams: I bet you they're still talking about it today. They might

[20:38] Speaker 2: be, but most of them also might be six feet underground, because the, you know, that's kind of the shift. I hope we, I hope we sang them sweetly to their graves,

[20:47] Mike Abrams: because it's okay. So it was, No, I mean, it's okay. The audience skewed, skewed older, and, you know, they they are, they're enjoying their jell o life, and hopefully they were, they were, yeah, let's just move on from that. What other, I guess, what other stories theories like you're familiar with the show, like, what else? What else do you have to to uncover here for

[21:14] Speaker 2: us? Oh, my God, to uncover. I'll just, I'll just keep telling you things that I think are funny I don't know. At one point during that tour, my friend Kevin and I just got Barbies and taped them to the swing booth, and he taped them to swing booth, and we just like, I think we were just losing our minds a little bit. So we we used Barbies to to help us

[21:40] Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, exactly. There's an actress that there's an actress who was in Romey and Michelle's high school reunion, and I forget her name, and I feel really bad she was also in the Parent Trap, and now she works for animal nonprofits, and she came to our national production when I was injured, and God, what she plays Lisa Luter in in Romeo Michelle's high school reunion. It's fine, uh, let's look it up. We can look it up. Yeah, yeah. As you're looking it up, I'll keep talking. I know that the the clock is ticking. It's freaking me out. But she was so nice, and I got to escort her to from stage right to stage left during up, up, up, and we kind of danced together. And it was, it was a moment that I will, I will never shake off, because I love her so

[22:30] Speaker 2: oh, my god, amazing. I love Elaine. Hendricks, yes, a queen, a queen. Okay, that's enough of Tour. Tour happens.

[22:37] Mike Abrams: She does play, yeah. She plays the stepmom and paragraph, she sure does, and a lot memed like nothing else. Oh, that photo.

[22:46] Speaker 2: She is a memeable woman. She's a meme of a woman. Yeah, and, oh, what a great act. Ironically, my friend Kevin has become like the king of, king of like, niche gay memes, post, post, cats. Um, but what else? What else? Um, help me. What should I tell you,

[23:06] Mike Abrams: we're gonna take a quick break and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. What about, what about? Like, the theories for your characters, like, how much did you dig into mango Jerry, and just overall, did you just go cause chaos. Yes, I

[23:23] Speaker 2: felt so close to that character, and like I ended up playing Mungo, um, like, five times later, four in four big productions after tour and then during the tour. So it's like, Where does Mungo Jerry begin, and where do I end? And I would always fantasize that rumble teaser wouldn't make it in time, and I would have to sing Mungo Jerry. And Mungo Jerry never happened because rumble teaser, Rumble teaser, I don't know if anybody has said this on the podcast, and if they haven't, it is a crime, but rumble teaser is the most difficult role in the show that she is running around like a crazy person, and I think the person who plays rumble teaser should get a medal.

[24:07] Mike Abrams: But yeah, so the rumble teaser sing right with your production? Yes, because in the cast album and in some of the earlier productions, it's Mungo Jerry sings the whole thing.

[24:16] Speaker 2: Well, in the original, original, it was Mr. Mustafa. Yeah, the original, it was Mr. Mustafa's that sang it, and Mungo and rump were like puppets. And I think, yeah, dancing through, yeah, made of, like trash. And I think they, it was coracle patent tanta mile, um. And so on the tour, they had cut, they had cut core cotton tanta mile. And, like, we, we became them for certain parts. There was a lot of weird cutting, um, even, even the the specialty number, Mongo rump, um, we did a, we did an abridged version that was snipped, and the bet they cut the best parts out. I was like, there's some really fun and jazzy choreography that did not make it into. Tour that we got to do later in other, in other productions, but it's, it's so good. Jillian Lynn. Jillian Lynn, may she rest in peace. What a fucking queen. Ding, ding, incredible.

[25:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah, um, tell me about the other productions you said you did it five more times. You hit

[25:18] Speaker 2: four, four after, yeah, four after, after the tour. And I had, I had so many amazing women as as my rumble teethers. I did it at Gateway with a woman named Debbie McCasland. I did it on tour. I did it with Kristen corderoni and and all of our incredible swings I did, I did it twice with Broadway's Amanda Lamont, and she is a very good friend of mine. And I also did it with Maru, also Broadway's Mara new Mary Greer, who is now a fancy dancy choreographer, and we love her work. Amazing. Yeah, it was, it's wonderful. I did it at Gateway Playhouse, and that was magical. I did that with Lucy. Did I do it with it? I did do it with Lucy. I did do it with Lucy Horton. And on that project, I got to work with Jacob Brent for the first time, which is magical if you grew up watching the damn movie, because the man is the most magical dancing man ever. Um, I think I most cats

[26:27] Mike Abrams: knowledge, I think I've ever met.

[26:28] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yes, yes. And I think, I think he coined the phrase Broadway eyes, yes. Um, I love Jacob. And we also, I got it, oh, my god, yeah. We also did it with Ken page.

[26:46] Mike Abrams: Why the the the whole like the picture, the two of them is, like, infamous, yes,

[26:52] Speaker 2: yes, Goat, goat and goat. And then we did it with my, one of my best friends in the entire planet, Jessica Hendy, so that was who was incredible. Oh, my gentle Jesus. She's so good, and her stories amazing.

[27:10] Speaker 3: One, one woman show, yeah, did you see it? I did. That was so good.

[27:17] Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I couldn't see it because I was in grad school. But the after that, okay, I did gateway. I did merry go round with Jacob and Lucy again, and that was with Taylor Dane, take the taro favorite person, Taylor Dane. And then I did it at Pittsburgh clo that was the one with Mara. And then I did it at North Carolina theater where I got my equity card, uh, with Amanda, Amanda Lamont, and

[27:47] Mike Abrams: you were Mongo all the way through the whole time, the entire time the whole Okay, I have a I have a question that I feel like you I most people dance around this answer, and I think you're gonna give me a straight answer based on how things have gone today. I always love hearing when you go on tour your favorite and least favorite cities. So what was your favorite stop and what was your least favorite stop?

[28:08] Speaker 2: Oh, my God, you might be asking the wrong person, because typically my favorite thing, my favorite thing is chaos. So, but Okay, I will say this. I think, um, Quebec City was amazing. We got to perform there during the winter, winter games, winter celebration, something, something gorgeous. Are you kidding? It's a European freaking city with like a castle and the I think we were in like, a weird dinner theater kind of place. But it was great. It was,

[28:42] Speaker 3: that's the French part of Canada too. It was, you get all the culture from that French AF,

[28:47] Speaker 2: um, yeah. And then the the place that's coming to mind, uh, for my for our worst stop, probably wasn't our worst stop, but it was pretty not great. It was San Bernardino, California.

[29:03] Mike Abrams: We, we not some random Midwest City, which is usually what gets thrown under the bus here. No,

[29:10] Speaker 2: no, I think I, I can't really remember a terrible place other than, I mean, the the most memorable place on our on our tour, was that library,

[29:20] Mike Abrams: school. Where was that? It's a one day stop. It was somewhere

[29:25] Speaker 2: on the border between New York and Canada. I could not remember, very small town, all right. It was so funny. I think San Bernard was wrong with California, yeah. Well, there was, there was, like, we were, we were told of much crime. We were told of much crime, okay, and we were, I think we were. The band was next door in like, what looked like a bombed out movie theater that, like, I don't know what happened. And but it was definitely like, dismantled somehow. So the band was somewhere else we were. We had to climb these really creaky old like vaudeville, like maybe Gypsy Rose Lee was there when it was new. Like these creaky, creaky stairs in this dusty and there were just wigs, like random wigs everywhere. So we obviously put them on in full cat. And I have, I have pictures of our Cassandra, Laura Henning, wearing what could be a bell wig in a, in a really sad production of Beauty and the Beast. Maybe that's what they were doing. I don't know, different animals. Yes, San Bernardino Does, does stick out, though. Um, okay, yes,

[30:53] Mike Abrams: I love, I love it. I, you know, it's fun to hear what, still, it's been 12 years, 13 years. Like, it's been, it's been some time, but like, what still is memorable for you from this experience? Oh, there's obviously things that happen, because you're traveling around one day in a school and then back on the bus, and they're on the plane, and you're all

[31:12] Speaker 2: over the place. It ain't cute. I will say the I don't remember where it was, but I think the worst thing that happened was we rolled into this one city, and they're like, We got dinner for you. We got, don't worry, there's catering. We're like, oh boy. What does that mean? They're like, It's chili. We're like, Oh, good, yeah, absolutely, a nice bowl of chili before, before we stuff ourselves into a unitard and writhe and scream. I had the chili. Why? Couldn't tell you, but I like chaos. I do

[31:45] Mike Abrams: that your mind just like I'm ready Exactly,

[31:49] Speaker 2: yeah, I was so ready. I ate the chili, and I remember regretting it as the overture was beginning and I had to run to the bathroom and get out of the unitard, which I'm sure you can't podcast listeners can't see, but I'm, I'm the the hooks and eyes were on my shoulder, and you had to, like, like, shimmy out of it. It was ridiculous.

[32:14] Mike Abrams: Run, run, run, run, backstage, back to the library. Just, library, bathroom.

[32:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, those were some tour moments. Just beautiful.

[32:24] Mike Abrams: Okay, I before we I'm gonna go to rapid fire next. But any other ones that you gotta that you want to tell before we go to the the important question at the end here,

[32:33] Speaker 2: there's just so, I mean, there's no way to tell them all. There's no like, I even I created a document like,

[32:42] Mike Abrams: what else did you write down? Let's hear we got time.

[32:45] Speaker 2: I know we don't know. We don't. Mike, we do.

[32:48] Mike Abrams: We do. I'm gonna stop it. People can turn it off if they don't want to keep hearing the stories. No, I turn me down. There are podcasts that just talk for four hours at a time. I'm

[33:01] Speaker 2: not gonna say which ones? Oh, the plot thickens. I don't know. I actually, I those. Those are, those are really the good ones I, I will say I've gotten to do every musical version of Mungo Jerry and rebel teether, which is crazy. There's a version that was the cut version on the tour that was just shorter. I was like, why didn't you cut the opera? Why didn't you cut, why did, why didn't you cut Genghis out, like sensible people, but No, instead, we cut mango, Jerry and rubble, teaser and anyway, did you do the cart wheels? Oh, my God, yes, yes. Let's talk about the cart wheels. The cart wheels. The cart wheels taught me how to be a really good scene partner, because no matter what during that number, you have to be you are. Your eyes have to be glued on your rumple teaser. But they do you are. You are responsible for rumble teaser being upside down for, like, most of the song, which weirdly she is. I'm like, What are you putting this woman through? But yeah, the cart wheels. I ended up like, and poor Amanda, if you're listening, I love you so much. Well, all of you, I got so in my head about it that I was like, I want to, I want to run it before every show. And it's, it's just hard. It's just hard because, yeah, with tight difference and everything. But yeah, I did the, I did the freaking cart wheels. Sometimes we did three, sometimes we did five, sometimes we did seven.

[34:34] Mike Abrams: The first time I saw it, I was like, again, blown away by the whole thing. But that moment in particular, I just couldn't, I couldn't fathom it, you know, like it's just, it's not something that I'm physically capable of doing by myself. But just watching it is crazy.

[34:48] Speaker 2: It's physically unhinged. And like, after all that we did, and it's, it's, I can tell you right now, and all of our listeners in the world, it's hard to. It's a hard number, and then you have to do the Jellicle Ball right after those. Like, uh, well,

[35:08] Mike Abrams: yeah. So you're, you're the two of you have what I think is one of the most interesting parts of the show. Like, I think track wise, from story wise, it's like, Oh, you just get to cause chaos, if I take that part out. But from watching it, almost all the time there are multiple cats on stage, and you get one of the few moments where it's like, Nope, just the two of you, yes, all eyes on you focus, and then exactly your point is you finish, and you go almost immediately into this most insane, difficult, 13 or 14 minute, however long, depending just cardio workout that most humans couldn't do in their lives to begin with, let alone doing it at the end of the first step. It's

[35:44] Speaker 2: rude, but it's beautiful. It's rude and beautiful. Both can be true, um, and

[35:50] Mike Abrams: then you get to do it eight times, eight times a week, exactly, sometimes in three cities, oh, my god, yeah. Sometimes 10 in three cities with with no, like, actual dressing room half the time, absolutely

[36:02] Speaker 2: not the Mungo Jerry and rebel Ts are a great roles, though. They of all the kittens in the show, you know? I mean, so much of the lore of the show is teach, teaching the children, the customs. Um, it's kind of, I mean, the show is kind of like midsommar, like you're you, there's, yeah, you come into this weird ritual, and there's outsiders, and there's new people, and there's people who've been doing it for, you know, decades and decades, and then somebody has to die. It's, it's Mongo and rump are definitely the the the outsiders that I think are the hungriest, because rumple teaser ends up being, like, just totally obsessed with Tugger. But so is Mongo it. They're great roles. I I loved, I loved playing manga Jerry. It was probably a Yeah, yeah. Highlight, yeah. Okay,

[36:52] Mike Abrams: let's go the rapid fire then, because first question I always like asking the rapid fires, who if you could play any cat one night only. Doesn't matter, male, female. Who would you want to go on as Cassandra? Cassandra, what a great answer. Favorite and least favorite cat. Oh,

[37:09] Speaker 2: God, um, oh, that's hard. Favorite cat. Favorite cat. Oh, you

[37:17] Mike Abrams: gotta have one. You gotta have one that bugs you and one that you love. I'm

[37:22] Speaker 2: gonna say my favorite cat is rumple teaser, because out of solidarity, and just because I know what that what that human goes through, what they got there and and what like you gotta Yeah, it's, it's rump for me, rumples my favorite, least Valley's favorite, least favorite. Yeah,

[37:44] Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember on stage who I was just always like, probably, you know, I don't think Mungo Jerry and jelly Lorem really got along. I think I knew Mungo was always like, you're just telling me what to do. Lady like, Who the fuck do you think you are who woke up and made you queen? Excuse me, I thought you were

[38:09] Mike Abrams: gonna say boy.

[38:13] Speaker 2: Teacher Grizabella, my least favorite cat is the boy, and it's Ryan Rubens least favorite cat too. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry. I love all of them so much. You spend so much time with these characters. But if I had to, if I had to keep pick a scapegoat, I'll say jelly Lorem,

[38:30] Mike Abrams: Okay, favorite song from the show. Oh, my

[38:34] Speaker 2: God. I mean there is something so no, there's, there's, there's something so wonderful about skimble, just where it fits in the show and the like, I like it's, so I don't know it's, it's very it's, I like it a lot. Didn't like it in the movie, but like in the show, I love doing that number. I The song that I hate the most. I'm sorry, Jacob, I'm sorry everyone. I'm sorry world. I hate Mr. Most awfully as it makes me want to jump in the traffic. Yeah? It's just the repetition of it. I'm like, this is where I feel like I'm in a cult.

[39:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah? Well, that you the jellicles are. So that's the and that is Alan they do. So I always ask one fun one, and I usually try to tie it to something from the episode. So I want to ask you, which cat do you think would be the best Alice in Wonderland? Teacher? Just kick off that show. If it doesn't, it doesn't have to be Grizabella. It could be, but, well, one can't be the teacher. Who would you have? I

[39:44] Speaker 2: think, I think Uncle skimble would be a lot like the teacher in Stranger Things, like, maybe a little bit game like me, like, definitely teaches the science club does like, I think, I think. Skimble would be great. I think if there had to be a substitute teacher, I would, I think bomb ballerina wouldn't, would come in knowing nothing but just absolutely having a great time with the kids.

[40:14] Mike Abrams: Oh, substitute teachers, yeah, she'd be great. So Tugger, he just wouldn't do anything. Tugger, I do think the other good teacher would be monkey strap.

[40:21] Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I monkey strap. Absolutely. Monkey strap. Would be monkey strap is the is the most solid choice? Probably skimbles.

[40:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah, skim bowl. Monks were the two I was thinking of. Yeah, okay, the most important question so I've argued at length. I don't think it should be teacher Grizabella as the Jellicle choice. So who would you pick as your Jellicle choice? So

[40:44] Speaker 2: I am of two minds, and I have debated this quite a bit with with many different people. And here's how I feel, here's how I feel. This is, this is, honestly how I feel if I had to just pick someone right now, I would say, I would I, I would answer you with a question, who sat on stage during intermission? Was it Gus? Was it Gus? No, I don't think it was. Was it who else is old? What was it? Jenny? Any dots? No, it was not Jenny. Any dots. It was old. Deuteronomy. Okay, why doesn't he get to die? Why does he have to stick around on this Jellicle plane coordinating this damn party

[41:37] Mike Abrams: that's I've just gotta go sometime right now. I mean, eventually he has to be the choice.

[41:41] Speaker 2: There could have been. There could have been, like, a very, you know, easy transference of power, where it's like, Grizz, get on the tire. I'm going up the stairs, like, that would be great, yeah, um, but this is the I also, I feel another way. And if it's okay, I would like to share, yeah, let's hear it. Let's hear the both. Yeah, I had a fantasy when I was on tour of um, of Grizabella entering for final memory. And I'll preface this with what is the problem of cats? What is the problem? I would say it is Macavity. Macavity is the problem, and Macavity does not It's not vanquished. The cavity, the problem of the cavity is not solved. He just puts two jumper wires together and then goes off stage to I don't know, maybe he moves, but the problem is not solved. I think Grizabella has the know how and ability to solve the problem. So what if, might I think Grizabella could. Grizabella has got, got something to prove. What if she comes on, holding the severed head of Macavity, and she's like, Y'all, look what I did, look what I did. And then, you know, she rolls it in front of the tire. She's like, here, and then she sings memory. And everyone's like, what the hell? And I don't know, depending on, depending on how gruesome you want it, how Greek you want to go with this production, which I think you should go all the way, you know, maybe, maybe instead of falling, she just starts eating the eating the head. I don't know. I don't know, but I would let her go to the I would let her go to the heavy side layer, if she did that. Well, at

[43:23] Mike Abrams: that point, maybe mccavity Is your heavy side layer of choice, because the point is, one of them's getting killed. So maybe she kills Macavity and then just stays with the family for the year. And he's the quote, unquote choice, but in a negative way.

[43:34] Speaker 2: Yes, it's positive. You know, you bring a great choice, but he's not killed at the ritual, or brought it's, it's more like it's, it's kind of like electro where it's like, I killed daggone them on. That

[43:47] Mike Abrams: was nice. So you're saying, yeah, so you have the conflict and resolution in your story, yeah, we don't, which we lack in cats resolution. It's like a little bit, he gets kidnapped, he kind of goes back. Was this guy really bad? So you're saying, grizzabel before she comes back, let's take care of Macavity that gives us, that gives us a story that closes then she still sings her number, yeah,

[44:07] Speaker 2: come on stage, bloody drenched in Macavity blood, like the, I think, and that shows us the audience and the jellicles on stage like, oh, Oh, yeah. She was scorned, but look what she learned.

[44:22] Mike Abrams: This is the lesson that Old Deuteronomy wants. Yeah, yeah.

[44:26] Speaker 2: I solved the problem. Let me go up the stairs. I do

[44:30] Mike Abrams: think the Macavity story is really, really strange. If you add a couple things together, of like, if he's broken every human law, that means he's done some stuff. Oh yeah, and that's in the lyrics. And so the fact that he does just kind of disappear and goes back to Plato, even maybe, or just in general, is just Okay, fine. We're just gonna let him be. He kidnapped our dad before, but it's also his dad, right? Yes. So it's kind of a weird, it's a weird storyline that does not get a conclusion. It doesn't

[44:56] Speaker 2: and, but, and, and that's why, like the show. Is a little Greek. Yeah, there's, there's definitely elements of Greek chord. I just got my master's degree. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry to take you to this place. But, like, because if you write your thesis on this, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But like, I could, um, yeah, so could you. But like, I think, I think we just like, kill mccavity, bring his head to the ball and and get your, get your, your just dessert. Can

[45:31] Mike Abrams: you imagine four year old you in Boston seeing that version? I mean, you talk about having nightmares before seeing a normal version of cats, you would be you wouldn't sleep for weeks.

[45:44] Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't think I'd ever sleep again. I mean, they it would ruin lives. It would ruin lives, but

[45:50] Mike Abrams: the theater of it. Oh, mark down. Yeah, I'm gonna mark down your first choice as Old Deuteronomy, because the second one still puts Grizabella as your choice. Yeah. And while I do like the creativity, and I like the idea of something new. I don't want Grizzle to be the choice with your vote one, but I do like I'm always here for a new version, although clearly there's been way more new versions than I know about, because I did not know about Alice and wonder cats.

[46:14] Speaker 2: Alice and wonder cats, it happened once in New Hampshire, and never again. Well, maybe it happened again. We don't know it

[46:21] Mike Abrams: could be. I think there's a future. There's a future where that could be that I hope not. Please don't little weirdly. But the thing is a little weirdly parallel, when you started telling me not before it was was boy in red shirt, I kept thinking about the 2019 movie where they did give Victoria to be like a lens of the story, which is kind of an interesting way to portray the story. So I was like, Oh, that's cool. They did that, but not with boy in a classroom. It

[46:47] Speaker 2: was our our barn production was not dissimilar. Of that, that treatment of Victoria in that movie. And I just want to say that if you're listening right now to this, to this podcast, please. And all you have seen is the movie, the 2019 movie, which is splendid, lots of talent, lots of great tales and digital things. Please watch the 1998 version somewhere. Please. Please, please. If

[47:22] Mike Abrams: nothing else, all the songs are on YouTube, on the official cats page from that movie, so you can see most of the without just by watching it in clips precisely

[47:30] Speaker 2: and and with Jillian's choreography. And that's not a dig on Andy's new choreography. Andy blanket Bueller is a genius, but there is something so vital about her contribution to cats that, you know, I'm not a purist, of course, like I just talked about severing ahead.

[47:51] Speaker 3: You're ready to kill the cavity, yeah, but no, but don't touch the choreography.

[47:55] Speaker 2: I know well. The thing is, the choreography is, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard to do better than what she did. I think,

[48:04] Mike Abrams: yeah. I mean, she's a genius. And so there's it's, yeah, well, this has been super fun. How can people keep up with you on social media? And when we post all this stuff, find all the things you're gonna throw on the internet, all of

[48:19] Speaker 2: this Easter eggs you can follow me on Instagram. How is that my Instagram is I definitely will how creative I'm there. Follow me. That'd be fun. Yeah, I

[48:35] Mike Abrams: can't wait. I can't wait to see I'm gonna make you send me all this stuff as soon as possible. Oh, this has been amazing. I've loved hearing all these stories. You You promised stories and

[48:46] Speaker 2: you delivered stories. There's still more, but there's no time. That's the part

[48:51] Mike Abrams: of that's crazy about this is you wrote some down, like, there'll be 20 more you're gonna think of later. And it's, I think that's what makes a show so great, though, is that everybody has a very different and unique perspective on certain things, even though there is some common themes, and that's why we're 160 70 wherever we are. Episodes in

[49:10] Speaker 2: podcast Alan, love going. It's great. You've done you've done an important service to the world, like

[49:17] Mike Abrams: who knew that this was going to be my calling, documenting the history of cats, the musical, but, but I'm here, and I'm glad, and I appreciate everyone who listens, because we do have a good group of people that listen to this and share their theory. So if you listen to this, and you have your idea of how Macavity should go, I'm, I'm open to hear new ideas, because I'm, we're always looking

[49:40] Speaker 2: I'll, I'll, I'll leave with this one image that I would always fan. I would also fantasize about this on tour, is we would be singing a dressing of the cats as Old Deuteronomy is singing to us. And I would just imagine hearing and then like a dummy would fall from. Been dressed as Grizz with an X spray painted on her, just like rejected, rejected from the heavy side layer. Mannequin falls downstage curtain. Next choice, next choice, next choice. So, I mean, that was really what this podcast is.

[50:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, that's my whole My theory is that she shouldn't go. So if you're, I mean, if she has to go, then, yeah, let's reject her and send her down. And here's the mannequin wise from your inflatable Bounce House set, or she'll bounce up the bouncy

[50:30] Speaker 2: house. Oh, god bless it. It looks pretty good.

[50:34] Mike Abrams: So fun, so fun. Well, thank you. This has been amazing. We'll link everything, we'll post everything, and we will let the let the memory keep going before we go. I wanted to add one quick thing. I recorded this with will before we did all the episodes with the Perlman Performing Arts Center cats, the Jellicle Ball. And will wanted to make sure that I added something so I'm gonna read what he emailed to me to close this out here quote, you asked me who my least favorite cat is, and I wasn't brave enough at the time to say it. I am personally so triggered by Mr. Mercaplies, and I invite others who feel the same way to come forward. Now, I was not lucky enough to see cats to jell Cabal. So my world view on the matter is limited to the original staging. So in that regard, I don't think we should count competition, dance or quote, works well with the fabric as a magic trick. It makes it full of all and I hate this stupid, stupid song. End quote, so I want to make sure we got that in there for will. And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast. Break down the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify or anywhere else. Listen podcast, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tick tock, and if anyone still uses threads at the wrong cat died, or check out our website, theroncat died.com. You.