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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:28] Mike Abrams: Welcome to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cats catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have a bonus episode, although I consider myself one of the foremost experts on cats the musical as a plot. I've come to learn that the cats fan universe is very expansive, and there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable fans that know way more about the cats interwebs than I do, so I want to talk to them. And first up, we have Flynn Lockett. Flynn is one of the managers of the cats fan Instagram page called at the Jellicle junkyard. Flynn has already educated me on a few pieces of the cats fandom that I did not know about, so I'm excited to have him share a little bit of his knowledge with the world. So Flynn, welcome to the podcast.

[1:17] Mike Abrams: Let's, let's kind of kick things off with tell us about your cats fandom. And I know you've been in a production, I know you've seen a production, but how did you become, you know, a huge cats fan.

[1:29] Speaker 2: Um, I guess it's just I received the cast recording for my birthday a couple of years ago, and I listened to it genuinely on repeat for six months and nothing else, and I just absolutely fell in love with it. And then last year, when I was in a production of Cats, I met a friend. She played Jenny any dots, and I found she was equally as obsessed with it as I was. And so through her, I got introduced to this whole cats fan community that I didn't know existed either until I met her. So it was, that's how I got

[2:03] Mike Abrams: into it. And who did you play? I played bust for Jones. Okay, so tell me, tell me a little bit about your production. And you said, I think you've told me it's about it. It was about a year ago from from now. So it was 2019 you were in a production. Where was it? Tell me more about it. And and then tell me about Buster for Jones. Like, what was like playing him?

[2:24] Speaker 2: Okay, so our production, yeah, like you said, was the middle of last year with a dance company in Melbourne, which is the Melbourne City Ballet. They started off a scene called Melbourne City Youth Theater. And cats was the very first production they put on. So I went and did that. We'd go down twice a week and rehearse for eight hours. So that was the dancing, the singing and the acting training, and then we put on the show. And it was really exciting.

[2:52] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. And so you were, Buster, what was it like playing that fat, Jolly cat?

[3:01] Speaker 2: It was really interesting. I might just quickly talk about the casting process. So we actually all auditioned just to get in the show. Then we did two weeks of intensive rehearsal. So that was eight hours for every day for two weeks. And at the end of that first two weeks, that's when they cast everybody. So I was on the only males in production. There were four of us, and I got cast as bust for drones and the Old Deuteronomy understudy. And our Old Deuteronomy was a woman, so I'm gonna say she set the trend before Judy Dench did. And yeah. So I got cast bus for drones, and he was really fun to play. He was I was only busted for that one scene, but I was ensemble and sung a bit in some other stuff. And yeah, I think I got busted because I am not a very strong dancer, and I will admit that 100% so Yeah, him not being a very dancey role, but being very singing, it was more just character work. So I played up this really jolly but also this really, um, kind of Uptown cat, is how I did it. Okay? Now,

[4:05] Mike Abrams: when you you hadn't seen the product, you had never seen a production at this point. Had you seen the the movie, or were you going in kind of cold? Oh,

[4:13] Speaker 2: I'd seen the movie, like 100 times. Like, I knew pretty much what I was doing, but I hadn't seen it live.

[4:19] Mike Abrams: Okay? And so you had a pretty good idea of how you wanted to play Buster by seeing the movie. Yeah, yeah. Were you told anything by your directors and your staff on how you should play play the character, or anything about the backstory? Or were you was it left up to you?

[4:35] Speaker 2: No, they actually got us to do all our own research on the backstory for our characters. So everyone in the cast got a cat character. So they actually came to me and my friend to ask about their backstories, because they knew we knew so much about the show, which was, it was really fun. So yeah, we got to kind of come up with our own backstories for each character, and then kind of wish. Show what we knew and what we wanted to do in the director was like, Yes, we love it. Yes, we'd like you to do this instead. So it was a bit of both, okay,

[5:06] Mike Abrams: what was the best backstory that you came up with, or what was one that maybe strayed away from what I mean, I think you've heard my interpretations of everybody. Is there anybody that that you think I completely missed, or that was dead on? Or how did you kind of frame your play?

[5:20] Speaker 2: Um, no, you're honestly, you were pretty accurate with everything. Like, I think you've done a really good job. There were just some of the more minor characters people struggled with. And we were like, well, this is kind of their personality, like, just kind of play off that. And they were like, okay, so then they did, and they went really far with it. It was great.

[5:38] Mike Abrams: So what was bus for Jones's backstory for you,

[5:42] Speaker 2: um, it was not the attending multiple gentlemen's club like you had that hope

[5:49] Mike Abrams: for a youth for a youth production. I'm glad that that's the case.

[5:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Um, he was very gentlemanly, uh, the we kind of had relation, like relationships with it, with different cats within the show, and so I typically tended to stick with Jenny and yachts. So yes, I was very he was very gentlemanly. And it was him coming to the junkyard to kind of tell everyone about who he was, educate all these young people on how a cat should behave, essentially, but he was also, he also wanted to have a good time, like I was there trying to make people laugh, as buzzfe and I did, which I was really happy about.

[6:30] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. So from that, is that where the fan Instagram page came from? Is that how that started? Yeah,

[6:37] Speaker 2: from us telling everyone's backstories, we realized that there actually wasn't a lot for people to find, like, other than the rumor mill that you've mentioned, which I have checked out a lot. That's where I got a lot of my stuff from. We realized that there actually wasn't a lot out there for people to develop these characters, like they had names and like how they looked and where they were in the show, but really nothing about them themselves. So when we started up our cat, we were actually originally cats the musical head cannons, and we were just posting, like little fun tidbits of information that we thought just gave these characters an extra bit of depth to help everyone out. So yeah, that actually started during our rehearsals, which was really fun, and then it developed into the Jellicle junkyard because we started putting out stuff other than head cannons. We were like, well, as fun as head cannons are, it's hard to come up with them all the time and not start going into the cliche kind of stuff. So we decided that we wanted to put out things other than head cannons. That's how it became the Jellicle junkyard.

[7:38] Mike Abrams: Amazing. And so now, how many times have you seen a live production? I've seen a live production once, one time. Okay, now, was the Australia? I'm assuming in Australia, was the Australian production different than how different was? What was, what were the different parts? Because I've learned a lot about Japanese productions and Swiss productions and all kinds of these other ones that have very different, unique takes on things. Was there anything drastically different in the Australian production? Plot

[8:04] Speaker 2: wise, it was still the same show. They actually did The Ballad of Billy McCoy version of grout Tiger, which I actually hadn't heard before. So that was really exciting. But the really cool thing was they actually did it all kind of 1920s jazz themes. So they had the cats unitards, then they also had these, like costumes, like flap addresses and stuff over the top, which was really, really exciting,

[8:29] Mike Abrams: interesting. Yeah, that's a very interesting take. I've not heard anything about that.

[8:34] Speaker 2: No being either. It was just it was I got when I went in, I was like, they're all wearing outfits. But it, actually really worked. It was really, really cool.

[8:42] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. Did they change any the musical numbers or or really the dance numbers by having that type of, I guess, theme? Um,

[8:51] Speaker 2: yeah, they actually, um, had a lot of Prop work. So I remember Buster Jones. A lot of the lot of them came out with, like a dish and like a cloche on top. And they did a whole hit with that, which was really fun. And then they actually changed up the Jellicle Ball a little bit with the dancing, which I found really exciting. So rather than having all these big group numbers, all the cats that had been mentioned, so Jenny and egots, Buster Mungo, Jen rumble teeth are, they all came out and had their own little section within the ball, which was really, it was really cool to see them all have their own one little moment, and which was really exciting, actually gave Macavity a dance number in the ball like he actually had his own little section.

[9:29] Mike Abrams: Interesting. Yeah, okay, okay, I want to pivot now, because I want to talk to you about a part of the cats fan that mine knew nothing about, that you've educated me on, which is the cat Tumblr world,

[9:43] Speaker 2: yes, so what is

[9:47] Mike Abrams: it? Explain it to the listeners, give me the brief kind of rundown of what it is, and then I have about a billion more questions after, okay,

[9:54] Speaker 2: I sent you a description today, and I just want to find that because that was I sent it to. Helping people from the fan, and they're like, that's probably the best way to describe it. So I'm just kind of going to go from that. So yeah, essentially, to catch some fans, we use Tumblr, which is kind of like, like blogging. I'm sure people have heard of Tumblr, and it's similar to other fandoms, and the fact that we share images and gifts and opinions and little stories and Art and Writing and fan fictions and all that kind of stuff. But it is a bit more open interpretation, because it um, because cats characters are up to your like, up to your own interpretation, I guess. So we actually have a lot of people on Tumblr who have blogs they run as the different cats, like we have Buster Joneses. We have bomb Valley arenas. We have Jenny dots, who all interact with each other through the blogs, if they were those characters, which is really fun to read, to see all these people's different takes. And then we also do role playing within these Tumblr blogs. So I have lots of different blogs for different characters, and I talk to my friends, and we kind of just make these situations and put our characters in them, and respond to each other as if we were those characters. So say, I'm currently in a thread with my RAM Tom Tugger and my friends Plato, and like, I will send them something as my Rum Tum Tugger, as what they've said, and then they will respond as their Plato. And it just kind of goes back and forth, and we come up with these wild scenarios and different universes. And it's really fun. So

[11:35] Mike Abrams: that's incredible. Is it a essentially storytelling? So you are rum Tom Tugger, or is it just back and forth pictures like, give me an example of one recently that's happened where you had interactions with multiple different people playing different cats. Yeah,

[11:54] Speaker 2: yeah, it's a bit more back and forth kind of storytelling, like there was one I replied to this morning. So a lot of people also make up their own original characters, or OCS, and I have one. His name is caramel, and so it's my caramel. And my friends, Cassandra, went to a farmers market. Like, it's just cool little things, like we put them in real life. This is in an alternate universe we created. Yeah. So I was saying, like, oh, they stopped at this stall and bought gingerbread. And he was like, Do you want anything? And then she replies with, no, I'm all right, I don't want anything. Like, and he's like, Well, you're gonna steal my food anyway, so I'm gonna get you something. So it's just little things back and forth like that, like they're having

[12:32] Mike Abrams: a conversation. And does it happen in real time, or is it over periods of time? Because I'm assuming my experience with Tumblr is like, I post something and then I don't know if they're online or waiting, like I might get it later. Is it a little bit more live, or is it delayed? And it happens over periods of, you know, weeks, days, months, oh,

[12:50] Speaker 2: yeah, it'll definitely happen over weeks. Because, because I'm in Australia, obviously, I'm in a different time to my friends in England, my friends in like, America, who I've met through cats. So because we're all on at different times, there'll be like, brief windows where we can catch each other and do it live, but other times where we will have to wait a couple of hours for them to like because they're asleep. So yeah,

[13:10] Mike Abrams: how many original characters do you have? And how many characters are you managing?

[13:14] Speaker 2: Okay, I have three original characters, and I currently manage

[13:29] Speaker 3: 12, 1314, you basically have the cast. You have the whole cast, pretty much. Yeah, actually, does anybody have a Peter?

[13:38] Speaker 2: We know we did not have a Peter.

[13:43] Mike Abrams: That's where I'm coming in.

[13:45] Speaker 2: You did join the cats from the community as Peter? Yes,

[13:49] Mike Abrams: so tell me the backstories on your original characters. Okay,

[13:53] Speaker 2: so I've got one, and her name is Jinx, and she's changed a couple of times from different things that I've done with her, because she's done some wild stuff, like she died, and then she came back to life at one point, which was so

[14:05] Mike Abrams: she won, she won, she won, and went to the heavy side player. Or did she just die? No, she,

[14:09] Speaker 2: um, it was, it was essentially black magic, and then she fell from the sky and died. Okay, so it's not, not like the good dying in cats. No, it was bad dying. But then she came back to life through some magic. And then I've got another OC. His name is valoria, and he's just this, like, he's just this really nice cat, but I just wanted to make someone who was really nice and wasn't mean to anyone, because Jinx was and she wasn't evil, but she kind of ended up being evil, and it was this whole big situation. And then my last one, his name is Tokyo, and he's actually busted for his grandson. So,

[14:47] Mike Abrams: so you kind of said a little bit with Jinx, but is there anybody that's playing a cat that's just awful, you know, like, That's just mean to everybody, and that everybody in your group kind of gangs up on, or is it all a little bit more? Do? Chemical than that? No, it's

[15:04] Mike Abrams: you created the one that everyone hates, yeah, yeah, pretty much is anybody do Macavity?

[15:11] Speaker 2: Um, yeah. We actually had, we had someone do Macavity, but then they no longer role play with us, so we've had someone else take over as Macavity, which is quite exciting, and he is evil to say the least.

[15:25] Mike Abrams: Okay, and this is global. You've got people doing this from all over the world, right?

[15:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. We had, we had friends in Wales, the UK, both sides, like different parts of America, Australia, like all over the place.

[15:37] Mike Abrams: And does it ever get weird too much like, like, it seems like this is opened up to where it could go a lot of different directions.

[15:46] Speaker 2: Um, yes, it very often does go to some, some places. I'll say that we are very, we're a very angsty group, so we like to, we like to make them suffer.

[15:59] Mike Abrams: Okay, because I read some fan fiction for my Mr. Mustafa's episode, and it was I needed a shower after. And so this kind of feels like it's leading down a path that might get into a similar section. And I'm curious if that's the what this is more about, or if it is a lot more just fun having a good time telling stories. It's a bit of a both. It's

[16:20] Speaker 2: sometimes we just do ones and lots of fun, and other times, yes, it can those waves, no more.

[16:27] Mike Abrams: No more needs to be said. No, no, that's fine. No more needs to be said. Okay, so I do want to ask, what is the it doesn't have to be your favorite, but what's the most memorable kind of interactions you've had in this, in this thread, like, what's the best story that's kind of come from this that's just like, you know, the farmers markets, kind of fun and simple. There's obviously the the dark side of this that we're not going to talk about. But like, what's just kind of a paint a picture for someone that has no idea what Tumblr is and what they're doing to where they could end up in this scene with upwards of 20 cats having different interactions.

[17:01] Speaker 2: Um, I guess one of my most memorable fans, the ones that first come to mind, is one where I made tumble Brutus get hit by a bus, um, which was, it was literally a random decision, and my friend makes me straight afterwards, like, why did you do that? And I was like, I don't know. That's just where my brain immediately went because him and another cat, George were fighting over something, and he didn't respond because he got hit by a bus, and then that led to a whole different other Heba situations. So, yeah, that's the bus driver. I mean, honestly, probably,

[17:38] Mike Abrams: okay, wow, okay, I don't even know what else to continue asking about this. I

[17:44] Speaker 2: think it's fascinating. Yeah, it's a lot, like, it's, you have to be in it and, like, know about it to get a full understanding. I think I've explained it probably the best I can.

[17:53] Mike Abrams: How many hours do you spend managing 20 plus characters in this world?

[17:58] Speaker 2: Um, well, we don't use all the characters at once. Like, I'll probably have three or four threads, which is like, the different stories on the go at once. And that'll change when I'm using, like, currently I'm using Electra rum, Tum Tugger, veloria and caramel. So they are the kind of ones I'm using the moment. Then I'll use monkey strap another day, and I'll use Mr. Police another day with some different people like it goes back and forth with whatever we like.

[18:26] Mike Abrams: That's incredible. Wow. Again, I knew nothing about any of this, so this was fascinating to me to learn about. I do want to pivot to the story, because I think this, this whole thing started because I've tried to figure out the family tree and use, you know, you've done some work on it. So what's your I guess it's really hard to make a just an interpretation of it, because there's clearly too many dotted lines. Is what I keep calling them. There's, there's different stuff, where it could be a lot of different ways. What's, what's your favorite kind of like, overarching, this is what I think is I know for a fact is true, and these are the ones that, like, I'm kind of hoping, are right in terms of the family tree, okay,

[19:07] Speaker 2: in terms of family tree, ones that we definitely know, and I'm gonna say based on what I've been told, because I have communicated with cast members on stuff like this, especially the current was current US tour. I to her. So Deuteronomy is the father of Macavity, monk strap and Rum Tum Tugger. And then I've heard you talk about the Macavity Demeter, that whole situation. So I actually do want to touch on that, because the well, this is what I think, and what a lot of people, like the majority of people accept, happened. So Macavity and Demeter were a thing, and they were in a abusive relationship, and from that relationship came Jemima,

[19:58] Speaker 2: And then you. Demeter escaped that and came to monk. And so now monk and Demeter are a thing, and Jemima is monks adopted daughter. She doesn't know that Macavity is her father is

[20:14] Mike Abrams: okay, yeah. And so is that why they fight? Or are they fighting for Old Deuteronomy?

[20:19] Speaker 2: Um, it's a bit of both. So mccavity was, it's coming to say that my cavity was kind of exiled or banished, and he wants control the tribe. And so when he take, and he also takes Demeter to get back at monk, and so they're kind of like he's fighting for Demeter, but also to protect his father and his tribe. Okay,

[20:37] Mike Abrams: what about the Mr. Mass athletes, wrong tug Tugger

[20:42] Speaker 2: Mrs. Um, yes, i Yes, I do. I really enjoy it. It's one of my favorite things. Um, yeah. And it's very much situation of like, neither of them wants to admit it, but they both have, like, the biggest crush on each other. Like, it's so obvious.

[21:02] Mike Abrams: So the other one that I that I pieced together, and I'm curious to hear what the the fans truly believe if they think I'm right there, but with Buster fur potentially with jelly and Grizabella with that potential love triangle. Do you think that that is a thing, or am I reaching? I

[21:23] Speaker 2: thought that was really interesting. I loved when you brought that up, because it kind of combined a lot of different things like so I definitely agree the fact that Buster and Grizabella have known each other for a very long time, and that jelly Lorem is kind of infatuated with bostopha. But I think it more is busted is kind of there, and they all flock to him, because, like, the younger kittens flock to rum Tom Tugger, the older cats are going to flock to Buster Jones, is kind of how I see it. So there may have been something there at one point, but not necessarily anymore

[21:59] Mike Abrams: Interesting. Okay, I see I don't see the older cats flocking to bus for I see him flocking to Gus, even though Gus might be a little too old. But if you're telling me he's a celebrity rock star, former celebrity rock star, you're telling me that he wasn't all over the place in his younger years.

[22:18] Speaker 2: Oh, Buster. Definitely was all over the place, but I think it's more with Gus. It's more of a thing of respect and idolizing. Like, if you went and saw, I don't know, Julie Andrews in the like and she was performing something, everyone would just be in awe. It's like, this is this great person we would know about our whole lives, like she's so experienced. It's more of a that situation than people loving him, I guess. Okay,

[22:44] Mike Abrams: that's fair. I think that's fair. What about the astrology science? You said you know a little bit about it, because I know nothing about astrology. I know nothing about cats astrology. It's just on the Wikipedia pages, which I thought was a weird thing to begin with, and every time I've researched it, it's made me a really cringe at how accurate it is. So someone put a lot of time into matching them up. What do you know about this? Do you know anything? I think you said you have some some knowledge here to share. Yeah,

[23:15] Speaker 2: so I am into astrology a little bit, but I have a friend who's quite into it, and she was watching cats, so I messaged her and said, Look, can I ask you about this, like the astrology? And we kind of went through just a different couple of cats. But the main thing she said Is she thinks everyone is a Gemini, because they're all completely insane. And I was like, that's that's pretty fair. Hang on. Let me this conversation went on for a while. Here it is, um, I think Geminis are weird, and so are all the cats. And I was like, that's pretty accurate. She said Grizabella is a Pisces because she's sad and emotional. She is a sad old Pisces. Used to be a fun young Pisces, and can't reconcile the two. I was like, again, accurate, mccaviddy is a Scorpio. And hold

[24:10] Mike Abrams: on, I want to see if this so that she's making this up. I want to see if this matches the website.

[24:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple. Well, I had a couple of the, like, a pictures of like, I couldn't find them on the website, but I'd found them before because we'd made a post about it, so I pulled that up and was like, what she was saying didn't really match, but the reason she had did make sense. This,

[24:28] Mike Abrams: this, and again, I know nothing but grizzabel is an Aries according to the website.

[24:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's more right with a Pisces, though. Yeah, because, like, I think that she's more right because she was able to give like justification. Do you think not to discredit whoever did these originally, but her justification made sense to me. With what I know about astrology, I have a lot of questions

[24:49] Mike Abrams: for whoever did these originally, because I want to know, first of all, who decided to do these originally. That's My bigger question, who went to edit this page and looked up every single. One of these. Like, it's fun when, when we're asking someone that knows, but I want to know who actually thought, like, I gotta go fix, yeah,

[25:07] Speaker 2: yeah. Definitely. I was like, when I was reading it, I was like, Oh, that's fun. And then I was like, didn't really think of any of it, because I was like, how do you know that? Like, yeah.

[25:15] Mike Abrams: So, okay, so who else did she did she cover?

[25:19] Speaker 2: Yeah? And the cavity is a she said, originally I had macavities A Taurus, and she said the cavity is a Scorpio with some Leo tendencies. And then, yeah, she said, just saw a website that says macavities and Aries, and that could not be more wrong. I was like

[25:42] Mike Abrams: some some animosity and griping here, yeah,

[25:46] Speaker 2: she said, skimble Shanks could be an Aries, because he's just there for a good time. Deuteronomy could be a Libra and everyone else is a Gemini.

[25:58] Mike Abrams: All Deuteronomy is an Aquarius. On here,

[26:02] Speaker 2: she said no, because she doesn't think an aquaria would care about grizzabel. Oh, an Aquarius wouldn't really care about grizzabella and her Pisces meltdown, okay, tuggers and Leo. She said that was that was pretty obvious.

[26:20] Mike Abrams: Here has Tugger. Tugger as a Libra,

[26:24] Speaker 2: yeah, it's like, seed stuff. She said. I was like, This is not what I have at all. Like, it's pretty much the exact opposite, but a Leo from what I know does, yeah,

[26:32] Mike Abrams: I just love the fact that she, she came in and justified it, like, that's great. That's, that's, yeah, that's more than this page has. Like, this page just says, says it. And then when I've gone to whatever that cat weird astrology website I found which explains it for cats, it's like, it's eerily correct, though sometimes astrolog Sometimes is. It's whack, yeah, I'm afraid to keep digging deeper. Okay, I want to, I want to ask you favorite and least favorite character in the musical,

[27:04] Speaker 2: oh, okay, um, oh, this is tricky. I'm gonna say favorite is probably Manchester, because he is the role that I want to play like, if I play with the roles, it would be him, and least favorite is probably going to be, I don't know. No matter what I say, I know I'm going to be upsetting somewhat about it, with it. Yeah, that's hard.

[27:43] Mike Abrams: I mean, I firmly believe there's only one answer, Oh, Peter. I think it's Peter, but I but I don't want to. I feel like I'm influencing everybody, but like there's got to be somebody else. I also learned, I don't think Peter's in any other production besides the most recent, 2016 revival. It's usually asparagus, and Peter's just was a name for that. Yeah,

[28:03] Speaker 2: exactly so, yes, but he was, he's always been known and still is to a lot of the fandom, as asparagus Junior. And he is Gus son, from what everyone, pretty much says. I think that's taken from the fact that he is a separate character within the film, like so. So John Mills plays Garth, but then someone else plays asparagus during the rest of the show. But, yeah, so Peter is his chorus identity, like Plato is McCabe's chorus identity. So similar thing there. But I think you're right. It's only a really recent change that's been made. Yeah,

[28:42] Mike Abrams: okay, so, so you still haven't given me your least favorite. I know you got, you got to upset

[28:50] Mike Abrams: you can Hash it out in a tumble tumbler page later.

[28:55] Speaker 2: Uh, I'm gonna say probably Grizabella, like she's just

[29:05] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we don't really know enough about her, and what we do know she's just kind of sad and mopey and like she as much she did try to get involved, she didn't really do anything to help herself.

[29:20] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love it. I love it. Now I want to ask you. I'm going to ask you my last question, but before that, I have, I want to hear your take on the movie. Did you see the most recent movie? Yes, yes,

[29:36] Speaker 2: Um, it was, I came in with a lot, with low expectations. It actually was better than I thought it was going to be. Um, that doesn't necessarily mean I enjoyed it. Um, I have a lot of opinions that differ from a like a majority of the fandom, like I know a lot of the fandom didn't really like the direction they went with. Stuff leaves in this. And I really did. I actually liked the kind of more clumsy thing going on with interesting, um, there were a couple of things that I was like, just wondered why they made that choice. Like, especially that the addressing of cats. I was like, this is the most terrifying thing I've ever seen in my life. Gas is number oddly was that was really strange. I was like, this is a, I know cats is a fever dream already, but this is a fever dream within a fever dream. Um, and, yeah, but I actually did. I enjoyed it. I was a lot better than I thought it was going to be. Yeah,

[30:40] Mike Abrams: I think you know, if you have the bar set low enough, then it's going to exceed it. So that was that was good, because I think a lot of people went in with high expectations, or at least more expectations, and I think they came out with, yeah, um, my other question that I want to ask you is, I've debated that this is not a Musical for for kids. Do you agree or disagree with me.

[31:02] Speaker 2: Um, I, I suppose I agree. Uh, definitely. Kids can see it, but there are things in that I think are just gonna go straight over the tops of kids heads, which is a good thing for a lot of those. Yeah, um, but yeah, I think to really, like, kind of get an understanding of what's going on, then you need, needs to be an old audience, but I think kids can still watch it and go, Oh, this is exciting. There's a musical, and there's lots of cats dancing around, which could be fun. So

[31:36] Mike Abrams: okay, that's the justification for a parent. But I still think that it's it's too much. It's too probably a bit too

[31:43] Speaker 2: much. There is a lot of raw sexual tension on the stage. A lot. It gets aggressive. It gets aggressive. It does it gets overly aggressive. And like every time you watch it, especially 9098 film, you notice different things and go, Oh, that's not okay, like, especially that one particular scene during the Jellicle Ball. Next time you watch it, and this is to everyone, I want you to pause it, and I want you to just look at the different couplings on stage, and you will see some things that you were just like, what? There were some choices made interesting.

[32:19] Mike Abrams: Okay, I'm not. I mean, I've seen it a handful of times, and obviously that's what's on YouTube, if you kind of look for the clips, it's from the movie, yeah. But no, I've not, I've not done that, that research. So next time I watch, I will be, I'll be pausing. I'd like to say I have a VHS, but I don't have a VHS of it. That's, that's what most people do. They've worn out there, VHS of the of the 1998 movie. Okay, last question before we get to the thesis question, which is obviously, you know, my whole argument, but, and I know I'm excited for this, because I know you're going to be on my side, but how would you explain the musical to someone who's not seen it like what would be your sales pitch to tell somebody why to go see this? Forget the movie. It's coming to your town on tour. Why go see it and then prep them for what they're gonna go see? Okay,

[33:08] Speaker 2: um, I suppose I would tell people that as weird as the concept may seem, it is executed incredibly well. And the dancing and the music and the singing within the show. If you get past the fact that they're all dressed as cats, it is an incredible experience like and these, you have to appreciate how hard these actors work to do some of this choreography. And I know how hard it is, because I've done it, and it's insane. So you just have to be able to appreciate that. And as weird as it may seem, it's still it's worth a watch. Like, even if you didn't like it, you only say, Well, I've seen cats, and you can form your own opinion on it. Awesome.

[33:51] Mike Abrams: And how would you explain the plot? Like, what would you prep them going in?

[33:55] Speaker 2: Okay, as interesting as it's a little bit off topic, I've actually answered this question on there's this site called Cora. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. Yeah. Cora, yeah. Well, I found out recently that I'm actually the most viewed, like person for cats musical related content. Wow, which is so yeah, I saw it the other day. I was so random. I have like a like, 400,000 views just for my cats and musical answers. How many

[34:21] Speaker 2: a lot. Okay, um, but yeah, a lot of them are cats familiar. And one of them, which is my most popular answer, I might be able to get it up now, is actually what the plot of cats, the musical is. And it has, like, it literally has, like, 400 something 1000 views, because people, people want to know what the plot of this is. And the way you've described it, as like an American Idol type situation where they're fighting to prove, hey, this is, I should be the one to go to the heavy side loud, because it is. It's the biggest honor within for the jellicles is, I think, a perfect description of it, that they come together once a year for this Jellicle choice, and that these cats are trying to prove why they. Should receive this really great, high honor of being the cat who goes to the heavy side layer.

[35:07] Mike Abrams: Amazing Is that what you wrote? So you just, kind of, you gave it, you gave a very brief, like, real answer. You didn't call it America's Got Talent or the X Factor on on drugs.

[35:16] Speaker 2: No, no, I didn't. I actually went into a bit of detail and kind of broke it down a bit more thoroughly, which I can do if you'd like. Yeah, let's hear it. Okay, so I just kind of went song by song. Let me see if I can find the

[35:32] Mike Abrams: question. So you went, we went deep into this that's viewed.

[35:37] Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I lied. Not 400,000 views, 46,000 views, which is still a lot. Here it is 37,000 views on this question. Catering musical takes place on the night of the Jellicle Ball, which is an annual meeting held by the tribe of the Jellicle cats. Mancha strap, as a narrator, begins by telling us about some characteristics of jellicles, why other cats joined in to add their own bits. This is the PROLOG. This is the PROLOG. Jellicle songs, Jellicle cats. He then continues by telling us about how cats are named, the naming of cats. Then Miss dufflies invites all the cats to the Jellicle Ball, the invitation to the Jellicle Ball. Then one by one, new cats are properly introduced, and tell us about their role in the tribe. The old Gumby cat, the Rum Tum Tugger, Grizabella, the Garma cat, boss for Jones, Bucha, June robesa and all Deuteronomy. I'm going to rewind by saying that Grizabella the gamma clap introduces us to one of the words, the most well known and strong plot lines. Grizabella the glamor cat used to be young and beautiful. She was very proud and deserted Jellicle Tribe. Soon, though, she became ruined and old and came back to the tribe. The cat still remembered how she left them and refused to let her in Old Deuteronomy, the leader of the Jellicle Tribe arrives and allows the knight to essentially begin. Moncussion entertains all Deuteronomy with the awful battle of the peaks and the polycles. Then the Jellicle Ball commences, which is largely just dancing. I can't seem to see how it adds to a plot, so just enjoy the section. Then Grizabella comes back, and all the cats leave, so she tries to copy them dancing. All Deuteronomy watches her, and she begins to sing memory, but then remembers how proud she is and lives Old Deuteronomy. Then sings moments of happiness to teach the cats a lesson. He then channels his energy through Corona tantamount into Jemima, and she begins to sing memory. We're then introduced to more cats. Gus, the theater cats and his dream sequence, growl, tigers, Last Stand, which also is important to the plot, skimble, Shanks, the railway cat follows, and at the end of it, Macavity kidnaps Old Deuteronomy. Bomb ballerina and Demeter sing the cavity about how wicked he is. And then Old Deuteronomy comes back, demeanor, removes his disguise, and it turns out to be Macavity. And monks at Macavity fight, causing cavity to disappear. Magical Mr. Myles follows, and he brings back old Deuteronomy. Grizabella comes back and sings the full version of memory with Jemima in parts. And at the end, Victoria welcomes Grizabella back into the tribe. All the other cats follow, and Grizabella gets chosen to run the heavy side layer to be reborn back into a different, dark life. And then the show ends. Wow, yeah,

[37:53] Mike Abrams: I went into Wow. Basically, I feel like, if I cut out just that section, just of you reading it, I still think we confuse 99% of people,

[38:08] Mike Abrams: that's, that's a, I still feel like that is my biggest gripe and problem with the show. It's also what makes the show. What it is, is that you can't explain it. But I mean, it is a competition for murder, like, that's the, that's my, my elevator pitch.

[38:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay,

[38:27] Mike Abrams: all right, let's, let's jump into the most important question. You know, as everyone does that, I don't think Grizabella was the right choice at the end. It sounds like, since it's your least favorite cat, that you agree with me. So who do you think deserves to go to the heavy side

[38:44] Speaker 2: later? Yeah, I do agree it shouldn't be Grizabella, like she doesn't really help her own case. I think that it should be Gus is my personal media because he has lived the longest life, and he has done so much for the tribe, and I think that he should be the next person to go, like, he has, he's had, he's had his run. He's like, I'm ready. I've done everything I wanted to do, like, it's my time, and I so I think it should be Gus. That

[39:13] Mike Abrams: is the number one consensus, I feel like, from the cats universe, is that it should have been Gus. Yeah.

[39:22] Speaker 2: I also kind of have a problem with this idea of a heavy slide layer. If you don't mind me bringing this up, I'd love to hear it, and it's that. So this, oh, they actually say that this is an annual they come together once a year thing. Um, so like, who was the last cat to go before Grizabella at last years? And who is going to go after Grizabella. Like, is one of the cats we're seeing currently, someone who's already been reborn. Like, there are a couple of like, where do they go and how do they come back? Like, it's a lot of there's a lot of like, issues I have with the concept of the heavy side layer. There

[39:56] Mike Abrams: are a lot of plot holes. This, and the whole thing, this being a very major one, I kind of thought with it, if it is one that came back, you would think it'd be the youngest kitten, so it'd be like a Victoria, or somebody else would be someone who might have been reborn most recent. And then you also wonder, too, if it's like, especially the movie, the new movie, painted it out to where mccaviddy Seemed like, this is my year. I'm going to win it. Finally, how many years has he lost? But then my kind of, bigger thought with this whole thing is, is that when you watch American Idol, America's Got Talent any of these things, they don't come back next year. If you lose, you lose and you move on. So I kind of, I'm a little bit with you on the sense of, how many times are we letting these same people compete, if you lost last year, then let's get some new people in here, and let's get a new competition going. Yeah, but I don't, I don't think that that That's right. I also think we're thinking this is more of your Tumblr universe, like we're thinking way beyond the two two hours and 15 minutes, two and a half hours, whatever it is that they put together to be on stage. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what's, what are your parting words today? I mean, this is, this has been incredible. I've loved learning about Tumblr and Cora, and you are the most, one of the most foremost experts I've met on on cats. I

[41:21] Speaker 2: actually kind of am not to my own horn, but like apparently, so my parting words would be as weird as this show is, there's something for everyone in it, whether it's costumes or if dancing, whether it's singing, there's going to be something to love and that just enjoy it like as weird as it is, you're if it's a musical, and everyone has their own opinions on it, but you should just enjoy it if you have the chance.

[41:54] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, thank you for joining and for being part of this episode. We can find you at the Jellicle junkyard. Correct,

[42:00] Speaker 2: yes, at the Jellicle junkyard on Instagram, and if you want my Cora answers, my Cora is at Flynn Lockett,

[42:06] Mike Abrams: amazing. Thanks for listening to this bonus episode with Flynn Lockett on the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown of the cast atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check us out on our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.