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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one who died. I'm the one who died.

[0:29] Mike Abrams: Welcome to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cats catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another very fun episode. I have been fortunate enough to interview many past cast members to learn about the inner workings of cats, but I promise to continue to bring you a wide range of cats content, and today we have a great guest who is also a big cats fan. Ryan La Salle is a published fantasy author whose first book, reverie digs into what happens when your dreams chase you back. Reverie has received a lot of press, including the January 2020 young adult book club pick for Barnes and Nobles and the Amazon's Best Of The Month editors pick. But I plan to discuss absolutely nothing from that today. Instead, if you look at Ryan's bio, the last line says, Ryan loves cats the musical unironically, and that is why I welcome him today, Ryan, welcome to the Ron. Cat died, and thank you for joining me.

[1:23] Speaker 2: I am so excited to be here. This is a dream come true for me.

[1:27] Mike Abrams: So let's start with, how did you become so obsessed with a musical that it ended up in your bio?

[1:34] Speaker 2: Oh gosh, it's become one of those things where, like, the more people tell you not to do it, the more it becomes, like, definitive of who you are, and I'm, like, a very spiteful person. And so as I've gotten, like, pushed back against this, it's just become something that I've, like, loved being obsessed with, but the way that I found my way into it was And okay, and I've like, talked to other people that have kind of similar stories, but the gist of it is that, like, I'm a musical theater gay, like, I've been in the theater scene for a long time, not professionally or anything like that, but like I've grown up around musicals. And yet, despite that, I just never knew anything anything about cats. No one could tell me anything about cats, or you could have told me anything about cats, and I wouldn't have been surprised, because just didn't know anything about it. And then in like, my like, mid 20s, I was with a friend who was living in New York, and another friend had told me that, like, if there was one thing that I did while I was in New York, it should be get as drunk as possible and go see cats. And she wouldn't give me, like, any additional detail, but she had that sort of like, Mooney eyed like look to her, of like someone who's like, really, like, seen some shit. Oh, actually, sorry. Can we swear you can you can swear Absolutely. All right, so she just looked like, completely shell shocked from her own experience. And like, I am always looking for that, like I'm a fantasy author. I am looking for, like, the weird and bizarre in every day, anyways. And I think it was weird that, like, I've been in so many shows, and yet, like, could not tell you a thing about cats. And so my friend was really resistant to it. Um, when I proposed that we enter the the lottery, and we had entered, you know, every lottery, and of course, the only one that we won was the the cats lottery. And my friend was, like, so upset by this, like, he's like, we've got, like, this one day that you're here and you want to go see cats. And I was like, Look, I will pay for your ticket. But I'm telling you, there is something big behind that car, and we have to go do it. And like, this is someone who's, like, in shows with me as well. Also doesn't know anything about cats, and we both come from, like, theater families. No one knows anything. So we, we go, I fully pay for his ticket, and we stopped at her liquor store on the way, and had, like, I don't know, like it was, like, it was like a day show too. It was like a matinee and like a Sunday. And we had some drinks ahead of time, and then got there and, like, it was just so funny right away. Like, we are the people that go and get, like, the commemorative cups that are like a bazillion dollars just because they're, like, funny to have. And, you know, fast forward to, like, years from now, all the cups in my apartment are, like, cats cups from the show and, like, I, like, have looked up recipes for, like, the Jellicle juice drink that they sold, like, this is like a thing now, but we just ended up in the audience, like, just giddy with excitement, very drunk before the show even started. And then, you know, the lights go down and the show begins. And, you know, thus began, like two hours of just like complete theatrical and narrative foolishness that I honestly had, like, the best time of my life. I remember we hit intermission, and usually at intermission, like, I do that, like, do I leave? Do I stay? Type of thing. And I just remember thinking in my seat, I was like, so content because I had an entire second half of the show left to go. Like, I just, I was like, How often do you get to pause in the middle of, like, a roller coaster to just be like, Oh my god, I have a second half of a roller coaster coming. Like, that's how I felt, and it's just become like a thing thereafter. So, yeah, my friends are all I've like, now I'm, like, literally evangelical about it. I try to get everyone that I know to, like, go, Well, I tried before Coronavirus, before the revival shut down. But anytime someone like brings it up, I like, basically launch into a speed. About how much I love it and why, and that's why being on this podcast feels awesome.

[5:04] Mike Abrams: So was this the 2016 revival that you went? Mm, hmm, yep, that's crazy, because I had, you know, fairly similar, but I was not warned to go get drunk. Yeah, I was just told go, and I went. And I'm not from a major theater background. I mean, that's, that's, I enjoy them. I've been a fan. I especially since living in New York, I went to a lot, but I had not seen most of the classic shows. And this was, of course, the one I started with. Oh no. And it was an experience. Matt and I again, but totally sober and just I was not prepared for what I was, what I experienced,

[5:41] Speaker 2: you couldn't be there's no there's no pre there's no preparation, I think that any human can go through to, like, go to that without, like, a fair amount of warning.

[5:51] Mike Abrams: So now, how many times have you seen it since? So

[5:53] Speaker 2: I saw it three times that year. Wow. Yeah, it became like a thing, like, basically every time now. So now I live in Manhattan, but at the time, I was just visiting, so I was just visiting. So I work in publishing, obviously. So I was coming for like, events and stuff like that. And my entire visit would be like, yeah, book publicity stuff. But then also, when are we gonna go see cats? And we would like, bring other people with us. It was like this, like, weird, like, cultish induction, where we'd like find someone who'd never seen, like, one of our mutual friends, and we'd like make all of our friends enter the lottery, like, get someone to go, like, and I just remember, like, one particular time it one particular time, it was, like, the middle of winter, and we got our friend, like Lauren, to come along with us, and the only place that we could find to like, eat ahead of time was that, like, Guy Fieri restaurant, and like, we're surrounded by like, flavor town memorabilia. And I was just like, this feels right. Like I feel like the unreality of cats is like, spreading into like, other areas of my life. And so, yeah, we went three times. And then one of my friends, the friend, the original friend, that went and saw it and got me to see it. We also went to the

[6:47] Mike Abrams: national tour. Okay, so you've seen it now four times total. I've seen it four times, and I got into, yeah, four times. How many times have you seen the 1998 movie? Not like the Not

[6:57] Speaker 2: once. Not once. Wow. What about the I'm wearing a shirt from it? Oh, you, yeah. I thought I dress up.

[7:04] Mike Abrams: I just ordered a cat mask so I'll be ready for people to go outside. I did. I did pull the trigger on that. That's incredible. But so, so you've never okay. So most, almost everyone I talked to was either in a production or obsessed from the movie, or first from some of the reason your recent obsession, and, yeah, gone all in in the past couple years.

[7:26] Speaker 2: Very much. So, very much. So it was so new to me. I completely have, like, the point of view of like a spectator, someone who just like absorbed it for the first time, like as an adult. So

[7:37] Mike Abrams: when the trailer came out for the new movie, how many text messages did you get? Hundreds?

[7:41] Speaker 2: It's all people talked to me about for a very long time. I had to, like, turn off my mentions. It was too much. But, you know, at the same time, like, exciting, because I, like, I knew what the world was going to like, inherit when, like, cats the movie came out, because I knew suddenly, like, all these people were gonna be, like, inducted into this, like, weird new club that I felt like I had been like, waving a banner around for like, a very long time. So I was very excited by that. And I actually even got invited to, like, a one of those, like, early screenings, and someone who had, like, played one of the cats in the movie was like, hosting this, like, very like bougie, like cats themed New York premiere. And like, I got to, I got invited simply because I talk about cats all the time. And it was like, me and all of these, like, really, like, classy, ritzy, like, New York gays, and they left me alone for like, five minutes, and I immediately got my face painted, like I tried every single cat snack that they had. And they, my friends, were like, we can't, like Ryan, we have to go to, like, an after party after this. And you're literally, like, dressed as christabello, like, we can't take you anywhere. And I was like, Well, I'm sorry, like, you invited me, yeah,

[8:43] Mike Abrams: so you went to one, like, the week before. Was that a theater? It was a, what was it at a, like, an AMC theater? It was at, I

[8:53] Speaker 2: don't know, it was, like, right, when I moved to New York, and so it was before I really knew what anything was. So I just, like, got on the subway, got off, and was in the middle of like, I don't know, I felt like I was like, in the middle of like, Gotham going to this like, density theater

[9:04] Mike Abrams: was great, okay, because I went to a press screening the day after the premiere, about a week before it came out, and it was at a large AMC theater. So it was just kind of, I knew it was going to be an interesting experience for the public. When about halfway through, a couple people just lost it laughing. Yeah. I figured, if you're in the press screen and you're probably, you know, either a fan or have some relation to it, not gonna sit there and be cracking up or intoxicated or, you know, like, you're gonna take a little bit more serious. I was told it was definitely not the case, really. Oh, yeah. So, so I got to experience at the, you know, I think the traditional way of like what most people were, although it seems like every one of my friends who went went with there was only like four other people in the theater with them, like it was never a sold out show, and we had a sold out press screen, or, you know, full, a full theater, right? This

[9:54] Speaker 2: was, this was interesting, because, like everyone, I had, everyone around me, I think had some sort of, like, Connect. Connection to the person that was in it. And so there was like a level of like revelry that I think was, like, specific to my screening. I had no idea who this person was, yet. I do think second to them, I was probably the person that was like the most into it, and probably, like, knew the most about cats going into it. And so I was like, the most prepared, but, um, but yeah, the people that I was with, like, it was very funny again, after sort of seeing this, like, shocked expression on their face when they were like, what like, what was that it like? Are we serious about this? And I was like, Yes, that's it. That's cats. And it was like a great thing to, like, revel in after. So

[10:32] Mike Abrams: you Okay? So let's talk about the movie. What'd you what did you think? Okay, as a as a fan, what was your take? Why?

[10:39] Speaker 2: Um, okay. So the movie i i enjoyed. I like spectacle in general, um, I have, like, technical notes for it, like, I think the fact that it's like this, like, highly cgi movie took a lot of like, the like, the wondrousness out of like, dancers dancing, right? Because everyone sort of looks like they made out of clay. But honestly, my, like, biggest criticism for the movie, which is, like, the inverse of everyone else's criticism. Like, I feel like everyone walked out of that and they were like, oh my god, I cannot believe how like, horny cats was. And I was like, No, you don't understand. It's not, it's not horny enough. Like, that was very tame compared to, like, what the like, staged version of the show, much, yeah, much. And, like, no one believed me. And I was like, oh yeah. Like, oh yeah, like the latest in digital fur technology, more like, you know, censorship, 2020, like, on stage, like there's like nothing is left to the imagination. It's like spray painted on the body. And it's basically like two hours of like, beautiful people dancing around in like lycra. And that is such a heightened version of, like, what the the movie felt like. The movie felt like, somehow, like, less than a spectacle, less okay? What I mean to say is the movie somehow felt like less of a spectacle than like the actual show does. And that surprised me. I really thought it was going to be a lot more bizarre. The

[11:51] Mike Abrams: movie kind of, it really depicted everything you think about cat cell like it was a little bit rushed. It didn't really, no one really understood what was happening. There was some kind of errors that maybe weren't errors, but could have been errors. That's why I feel sometimes when I watch it, you know, it's like, there's a little bit of improv, I think, for the characters, of being able to do that. And I felt maybe there's a little too much for a movie, right? And then it just the end, just still gets me with Judy Dench. Like, Judy Dench,

[12:17] Speaker 2: like, yeah, yeah. That, that was quite incredible. That felt like when like, mugatu tries to, like hypnotize, like in like Zoolander and like Malaysian prime minister, like, that's what I felt Judy dent was going to tell me to do in a second, I would have listened. But to memory.

[12:33] Mike Abrams: Memory is the trigger

[12:36] Speaker 2: word I will say Jennifer Hudson singing. Memory is something that, like, has come right out of, like, a fever dream for me, like the second I knew that I was gonna get that I was stated and also, like, for me, my reaction to the movie is more like I react to like, the phenomena that is cats and that sort of like surrounds it more so than the actual like storyline. Or like, you know, the like quality of cats itself, like, I just love what it does to people. And so I got what I wanted out of it. All of these people that were, like, completely baffled and outraged and enlightened and, like, you know, amused and entertained and like, that's what I enjoy from like cats. I just love to witness, just like the chaos that breeds into the world.

[13:15] Mike Abrams: I love that your biggest criticism is it was not horny enough. Yeah, I don't think it went far enough, which the if you really break down the musical, it is aggressively sexual,

[13:25] Speaker 2: yeah, like, yes. It's Yes, I agree. So

[13:29] Mike Abrams: I have a few points I want to get your take on that I've debated or just kind of argued for my my podcast from day one. And one of them is that I don't think this is a a Musical for children, yet there are always a lot of kids that are there. So my question to you is, you know, based on your feedback, exactly what you just said, Do you think children should come to the

[13:51] Speaker 2: show? Oh, my God, this is a rough position to be in, because I'm technically a children's author, and so I have to, like, watch how I answer this. If my okay, if you're my publicist and you're listening to this, I'm so sorry. I do think it is a good show for kids, not because I want kids, like, witnessing the, like, sexy dimension of it, but because so many, like, gay people that I know knew that they were gay because of, like, watching that movie, like the cats movie, or like, watching the staged show. And I think that, like the storytelling in it, and sort of like, just like the specificity that like is capped, I think is, like, probably not prohibitive to like children in and of itself, though, I will say that, like, because of the adult nature of, like, some of the themes, yeah, I can definitely see, like, a parent wanting to maybe take a step back. But I also don't think that, like a lot of that stuff, like, I think kids sort of automatically audit the things that they see and censor things that they don't really understand. Like, I don't think anyone's being introduced to intercourse by cats, right? Like, even when I was watching it drunk off my ass, I did not know what was happening when, like, half of those. Things were happening, someone had to, like, literally point it out to me, because I was just like, this is beautiful. I'm watching, like, some incredible dancing. I didn't know either. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, 25 when I saw it,

[15:09] Mike Abrams: yeah. So I was the same way. I was, you know, late 20s, and did not piece any of that together. And then also, like, Oh, uh, Buster Jones is at strip clubs, and this is about this, you know, the this cat's losing its virginity or coming of age. And I'm like, I did not piece any of that. I was like, oh, it's ballet, you know, like, and I don't, I know so little about dance and Broadway that I'm just sitting there going, like, oh, like, and I saw Leona Lewis. I'm like, when she gonna sing memory? Like, that's the only thing I knew. It was only song I knew coming. And now it's like, of course, you know, it just seems kind of laughable when you think about all the other stuff that comes in this musical, right? But at that point, I'm like, I knew zero and, but I do, like, have, when I left, I was like, that was a that was a lot, that was a lot, and there was, like, some like, you know, seven, eight year old kids sitting around me, yeah,

[15:52] Speaker 2: because it's like, no matter what, it's like, it is a horny show, right? Like, like, there's like, a horniness to these people, like, prancing and clawing around that I think is, like, absolutely unavoidable. But I would say that that's true for anything where you, like, put gymnasts in, like, lycra body suits, like it's just unavoidable. Like Cirque de sole, same thing, like it, you can't get around the factor that, like these people are using their bodies and manipulating their bodies in such a way that, like they're they're looking to collect be evocative and and that's what I felt was missing from the the movie, there was no sense of like body to these people. It just looked like these, like floating faces on these, like, you know, very realistically rendered bodies. But there wasn't a sense of like weight or flesh to any of it. And that's why I was like, Oh, this doesn't feel like the same sort of like deeply physical experience that the show feels like. That's totally agree.

[16:38] Mike Abrams: And then, you know, the human hands and the rumored cats, right? Yeah, there's, there was a lot. Again, it's kind of the gift that keeps giving. This is what I mean.

[16:48] Speaker 2: It's like the Pandora box of, like, cultural artifacts. It's just like wild to me. So

[16:53] Mike Abrams: how many friends have you introduced to cats? Every single friend that I have, every single friend, okay? And what's your, what's your pitch like, what's your, Hey, you gotta come. You gotta come see this

[17:01] Speaker 2: well. So previously, when there was an opportunity to see it, and before the movie existed and it was accessible, it was just mostly like, they would be like, wait, you like cats. And I was I would, yeah, I would stick with my guns. I'd be like, Yeah, I love it. And the next time we're in New York, like, I will pay for your ticket. And if you don't have a good time, you don't have to pay me back. And I would just sort of like, trap them in that. And that worked for a few people. And eventually, like my other friends, would like, enter the lottery and just, you know, because you're in New York and you're gonna see shows pretty often, like, eventually, people are like, Ryan talks non stop about this, I'm gonna go see it. And then I would get like, a call after, you know, at like, 11 o'clock when the show would let out, people would be like, you were not kidding. I cannot believe this. And we would have like, a long, in depth conversation about it. But usually I get into arguments about this with people who, like, know cats well, like, I like other like theater people who are like, wait, you actually like cats. And there's this like level of like snootiness that comes with, like, the conversation. And that's my favorite. I love nothing more than like, trapping somebody who like, thinks they have an opinion about cats into a conversation with me. And just like, you know, going, like, high school debate club hard against, like, whatever preconceived notions they have about it. And that's

[18:04] Mike Abrams: so that was when I started this. My biggest fear was, is that I was going to anger some, like, legitimate Broadway person, yeah, with my parody that this is, you know, because I'm breaking down the plot, I still, you can talk about everything else all day. I couldn't tell you anything about the dance moves, the tap dancing, any of the numbers, any of the singing. I just it was impressive. I know I can't do it, and that's the extent of it, but I can tell you about how it was written now and how I would have maybe crafted stories different, and how I can interpret it, which has been very fun, but also I'm waiting for the day to really anger. I've had a few people argue back with me, okay, um, through DMS and other stuff, of like you're wrong, and then I love

[18:44] Speaker 2: that wrong about cats. I mean, I guess it depends on what your opinion is, but it just feels like it's totally up to whoever's perceiving it

[18:52] Mike Abrams: agreed. I mean, my main point is that I think Isabelle shouldn't have died at the end, we'll get to

[18:57] Speaker 2: that, because I disagree with you on this point. Okay, I don't want to, I don't want to jump to that too quickly. So

[19:01] Mike Abrams: I want to talk about the plot. I want to talk about the plot too, but I want to hear what your like, what your take. If someone said, Hey, I'm not going unless you explain what I'm gonna watch. Okay, how would you describe it to him? Um,

[19:14] Speaker 2: I would tell people that. Um, I mean, I would probably tell people the truth that, like, you're gonna show up and the show's gonna begin and it's all overture. It's 100% a musical consisting of cats singing like self referential songs about which cat among them is the best, and whichever cat wins this, like cat contest gets rocketed to the moon and dies. Perfect. Yeah, that's correct, right? Like, it's like a ritual sacrifice enacted yearly by these cats and and the best cat, the cat who wins, is immediately upon winning, sent to the moon and dies like that's that's what I'll give them typically. And then they'll ask me questions, because that seems like a completely unrealistic type of things, but I'm like, basically, no, it is. It is the voice. But for cats,

[19:59] Mike Abrams: the. War. I've thought about, like, where my frame of reference came is. When I walked out, I kept saying it was America's Got Talent or the X Factor. And then I was like, Oh, I watched Leona Lewis, who was on The X Factor, which is probably why I kept saying

[20:09] Speaker 2: that. That's amazing. That is so meta. I wonder if it ever occurred to her that she was like, in like, a Jellicle version of her own history.

[20:16] Mike Abrams: I've been I've reached out to her many times. She ignores me every time,

[20:19] Speaker 2: if I ever amass enough star power to, like, get her on like, register, and I will ask her these questions. Please try to get her

[20:25] Mike Abrams: here. I've asked every single 2016 revival cast member to saying, hey, if she's free, I would love to know her take on this, but that's to me, it was a very meta version of that, and that was kind of my original joke when I saw it was that I'm watching the X Factor, and I've got the winner already performing, you know, the the hit song, but it's a, you know, it's a dark version of that, you know, it's like, America's gotta tell you, in a million dollars in a Vegas show, and here it's like, you get to die,

[20:54] Speaker 2: yeah? Like you get released from the crucible of life. But it's

[20:58] Mike Abrams: also, as an author, is it, isn't it missing a lot of normal story arc pieces for you, like, there's, I mean, the movie kind of made Macavity, the, you know, the antagonist, that's but I never got that in the in the two times I saw it on on stage, I never pieced that together at all. I was just like, oh, this is a very, again, aggressively sexual song. And it wasn't until, like, later, when I watched it to research that, you know that character that was like, Oh, this is probably either a domestic abuse type of situation or some 50 shades of gray type of stuff going on. But again, like, I would have never, you could have put that show in front me 100 times. I don't think I've ever would have pieced that together.

[21:38] Speaker 2: Yeah? I Yeah. As an author approaching this, like, you could never assemble a story like this, because it's just, it's completely missing, like, actual plot, or really, like stakes, or any of that. Like, the whole show is literally that it's just like, just overture, it's just like, all introductions, and then suddenly you like, hit intermission, and you're like, oh my god, the show never actually began. Like, I remember having that sensation of like, Oh my God. Like, we're 20 minutes into this, and I'm still learning about, like, main characters, like, where are we going from here? Like, what's gonna that was, like, trying to keep track of everybody, and you just have to let go. You have to, like, let go and let God and let cats and like, yeah, no. The the thing that I love about it is it's so completely absent of all, like, the major trappings, or like, mechanics of a traditional narrative. But still, at least for me, tends to have, like, a pretty like, I think it still delivers an actual resolution in like, a really sort of important way. And I think it does so in a really, like, atypical way for people who are used to, like a three act structure, beginning, middle and end, rising action, all of that fun stuff. Like, it doesn't have any of that somehow, and yet still resolves, which I think is, like, quite phenomenal.

[22:42] Mike Abrams: And that's part of where I struggled, because my favorite type of TV shows to come to where it's, like, I know exactly what I'm getting in, like a pot, Yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready to go. And this was the opposite of that, yet,

[22:55] Speaker 2: wait, Okay, interesting. So you so you're like, Okay, this doesn't have typical structure. You still have commentary on, like the resolution and like how it should have turned out.

[23:03] Mike Abrams: Yes, because I so. I mean, what's let's not overstate how this, the genesis of this podcast happened, which was a one line joke to a friend that turned into this, but, but I do, the more I like, started thinking about it. I was like, that wasn't like, it's memory. Is a great song. It's like, you know, it's good. Someone gets a belted out. It's so fun. But I was like, Great song when I left. The only song I really was singing for the next like week was Mongo, Jerry Rumpel, teaser, incredible. And I was like, This was so fun. And I was like, if they're really just doing a competition show, like, are was that really the best one? Like rum tuck Tucker puts on a good performance. Mr. Soft ways, puts on a good performance. There's a an actual train being built. I'm like, you know what's why are we gonna reward one song with a winner? So

[23:50] Speaker 2: okay, but this is truly operating from like, the premise that, like, we are attending like cats X Factor, and then you're also assuming the criteria by which they're like, rating each other, and they're actually, it's not even, like, it's not a cat mocrossy, right? Like it's, it's, it's old dudes. Like, he's a dictator. He's a dictator, right? Like it's his choice. So you have to think about Simon Cowell. He is the Simon Cowell, right? Like he makes or breaks a cat's career and or lifespan. And it's his criteria that I think you need to think from, like, it's not about who's the most impressive. And I think that's what all of the cats misunderstand, and why Grizabella, potentially the least impressive cat, ends up like nabbing the victory in the end. But I think

[24:27] Mike Abrams: what you just said is exactly why. I think my answer is right now I okay if I was redoing my order, I probably the most convincing story is Gus team. Gus is the is the most convincing group out there. I argued that it should be Mr. Mrs. And Ron Tucker together as tuxtoflies or tug of police, kind of like partner niche. And if you watch the X Factor, I'm pretty sure one direction, Fifth Harmony. A couple of these others were put together by Sarah Cal they were to win, and they are the biggest hit. It's so I really think even with your own argument, I still am right.

[25:04] Speaker 2: No, I don't think you are. Because I'm not arguing that we're going for like a Hit Factory, like we're not going we're not sending cats to the Heaviside Layer to perform and make money in records. We're sending them to the Heaviside Layer because they have earned another life. And I think everybody, everybody, here's Okay, here's the thorough line of, like, my thesis. And you can tell me if you can actually rebuke this, everyone in cats, except for Grizabella, she's the one exception. They're singing a song that is like a deeply naive, self referential and self involved. And I don't think that they have lived a life like that is commendable, or really a life that, like has earned them a chance at, like, a new life. They have so much left to learn and left to sort of give, and they're showing you that by like these, like incredible performances. But only Grizabella, who has left the Jellicle, like COVID, seen the world and come back, who's really, like, experienced things, and who manages to sing the single song in the show that's not like, deeply infested with like, like cats lore, like Jellicle lore, only she has seen like, I think, enough of the world to sort of earn the second chance and like, the second life, and that's why she gets picked. That's why she has basically earned

[26:10] Mike Abrams: death. Okay, I think you could make that same argument for Gus 95% of it. I don't think so. But I get where you're coming from. I do think that there is a an I made an argument for her. I did an episode. It kind of hurt me to do it, but I make the argument. What

[26:30] Mike Abrams: So, same, kind of, similar rationale that she by, it's a redemption story. And those do well in, you know, like, I've watching current, America's Got Talent. There's always a story. There's always a backstory. And anybody who has a redemption story always does well and gets through, but you've got to match it with the talent. And so she, that's where I said, if I'm going to make the argument, it's that she's got a powerful redemption story. Was pretty famous when became a prostitute. That like, that's why, I think where she went off, that seems to be the consensus. So she wants to be a prostitute is now coming back, and now you're getting to watch the redemption story, which gets to win. That would be why I would say, yeah, maybe okay, I would do that. It's not as fun of an angle to take. But I can. I could argue it,

[27:15] Speaker 2: yeah, I can. I can see, I guess I don't see her returning as like redemption, and I Okay, which is, I think, weird to say, because obviously, for watching the show like she is redeemed, in the eyes of like, the cats who are like, now going to like, sort of welcome her back, and she kind of has to earn that. But I think it's more like she she comes back and teaches them something about, like, the larger world and like, the larger experience of life, having been someone who has left sort of the very insular community that they're all, like, so captivated with, like, they're all so self obsessed and, like, you know, looking at one another, and they're all so self involved that, like, suddenly this, like, agent comes in and, like, it's like, the sudden, like, ventilation, yeah, like the cats community, which is why, like, I don't, I don't see her. I mean, like, and I get like, they fear her, but I don't know. I don't necessarily see her. That arc is, like, redemptive, although I can definitely appreciate that point of

[28:06] Mike Abrams: view. That's I just kept thinking it's Lindsay Lohan or Brittany Spears, if there was the redemption,

[28:13] Mike Abrams: that's where, who's who? No, no. Like, either one that's like, that is the that's the path. Like, there was superstar, still, like, had everything went off the rails, yeah, and then if they ever came back and all of a sudden, you know, had mean girls too, or whatever, you know, that's, that would be the arc of grizzabella,

[28:34] Speaker 2: you know what you're, right? Like, yeah. And, I mean, I think that in within that is sort of a commentary about, like, what we do to like, starlets, right, as a culture, like, they're like, they're like, these, like consumable things that just, like, totally burn out, and then we're shocked and horrified when they don't do well thereafter, and we sort of abandoned them, which I feel like the the Jellicle cats did to Grizabella. She went off and, like, sort of had her life, but I think she got the one thing that no one else has, except for Deuteronomy, which is, like, a sense of wisdom, as after having, like, lived through and, like, sort of survived, like, you know, all of these different lives. And that's why she kind of comes back, like, basically bearing perspective. And I think that's why, that's what sets her apart, at least in my mind, from all the other cats. And the reason I don't think Gus sits like in the pocket of that reasoning is because Gus is all of his experience is in theater. It's in like a pretend life that has taken place completely within the world of the jellicles, like the lore, the heroes that he's talking about, the battles, it's all deeply entrenched in, like the Jellicle point of view, he's never moved beyond it, and he's only sort of trapped in reliving it. That's not the same as Grizabella the

[29:36] Mike Abrams: way you're explaining it feels a little bit like the jellicles are like the Amish and Gizelle left, like, that's why she's gonna be rewarded.

[29:49] Speaker 2: I do. I think, I think that's true, and I think that, like, Deuteronomy sort of basically saves himself, like a potential risk factor by getting rid of her, because, like, she comes back and like she's redeemed, and people are suddenly listening. To her and, like the cult, and immediately he kills her, like, that's smart for him to do, because he doesn't want her necessarily sticking around and, like, infecting the young ends with, like, this idea of like a greater world, because then he loses the base of his power, which is, like fear of redemption and like reward.

[30:13] Mike Abrams: It's you can tell you're an author.

[30:19] Mike Abrams: This is, this is a very it's a pretty convincing argument. I still think I want one direction in Fifth Harmony. We

[30:26] Speaker 2: don't know that two people can go to the Heaviside Layer at once. I mean, this is you're changing the map, because the rule,

[30:31] Mike Abrams: the rules of cats, are so well defined to begin. Well, yeah, but I'm

[30:35] Speaker 2: like, spitting now, yeah, no, I Yes, okay, fine. Like, let's all go to the Heaviside Layer then. Like, I don't know, but that that just seems like you're okay. Why both? Though, how do they both went out? Like, what is the criteria that they're almost so

[30:48] Mike Abrams: almost all of the fan fiction, it's like 75% of the fan fiction is, like a ship of the two of them is, is the two of them being gay lovers? Yeah, that is, like, almost all the erotic fan fiction that's out there for cats. It was, like, honestly, it took me a long time to find something that was not related to that theme. And so that was, you know, they there's a lot to that that either Brotherhood or relationship or whatever that is. And so I just, I again, I viewed him as Bert and Ernie, yeah. And I think that that's, that is rewarding. You can see kind of their own parallels. And that's, that was my favorite. You know, as I researched everything and started to look through this, that was my favorite, kind of just whole thing that came together. It was two my favorite performances, too. They're just, like, really fun to watch, really kind of entertaining, which I feel like, if I'm look, America's Got Talent has been won by multiple dog related shows. Like, it's not always the best and most talented that wins. It's what wins, the fan favorite. And so that's also, too, why I was like, if I'm voting, memory might not pull out the heart strings for everybody. And I think that, you know, the the when the the lines open for voting, you know, in America, you might end up with the two over the top sexual acts, yeah,

[32:02] Speaker 2: it depends who has a cell phone. Though, I feel like, if you really, like, SAT, like, Yeah, I think that, like, cosmetically, the like, big acts, especially Mr. Most awfully, he's my favorite. Like, stand to gain, like, the biggest applause, right? But this is not an applause meter, right? Like, again, I think if we're looking at, like, emotional resonance. Actually think Grizabella sort of still takes the cake because she's the only one singing about, like an adult theme. And, you know, and I think that, like, that song is like, so deeply resonant. It's, there's a reason why it's the only song that seems to like, sort of like escape this, like, weird membrane that encases all of cats, and that, like, people know memory, they just don't know cats. And I think that it's because that song, like is so deeply resonant. So I actually think that that would make a case for why, like, adults across the board, and the elderly would vote for Grizabella if we're gonna go with this, like, America's Got Talent style, like, if we Jellicle Ball, if we are sticking with that as we're gonna extend that lens to look at that's that's the other part that, that a lot of people will argue is that I'm looking at it too much in the X Factor. I don't think you're looking I mean, if that's how you interpret it, like, if that's, if that's how cats comes to you, then I'm not gonna defy that. But I would actually like go along with that and say, even, even with that premise, if I accept that premise, like, I actually still think Grizabella is the right cat, okay, and you know why she's the right cat? Oh, my God. Listen, listen. Leona Lewis won her competition by singing incredible ballads. Like, bleeding Love is like her best song, I think, and then she went on to play Grizabella bleeding love memory have, like, a lot in common. Like, I think she is the perfect case as to why Grizabella would actually be the winning cat, because Leona Lewis was the winning cat.

[33:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, I can, I can concede that there is a very valid case for Isabella, okay, but I've devoted 20 plus episodes

[33:52] Speaker 2: argue why it's not. I'm not. I'm not working on you. I'm working on like the person listening to this that's never thought about it. So I it's mostly that person that I have in mind. I'm not looking to totally knock you down on this. I actually think you have a lot of good reasons too. Truth be told, I never really thought about who would have won. I actually love to think about what, like, the fallout of this victory would be, and, like, what cats too, would focus on. And I think it would be like, you know, the next year of basically cats grappling with, like, the this usurper that, like, came in from the distance and the horizon, and like, what happens next? Like, I would love, I would love to, like, write that story eventually. So

[34:28] Mike Abrams: what's, what's your, yeah, what's your take on cats two?

[34:32] Speaker 2: Okay, so I think that if I wrote cats two, or if I was interested in a story about cats two, it would be from the point of view of someone who follows Grizabella back someone who's, like, worried about her and who's part of her life, and like Paris or wherever she is, like, either like a friend or like a client or like, who knows what. But basically someone who, like, hears a lot about her sense that, like, there was this, like, interior sun setting happening in her where she was, like, I must return to like, you know, where it all began. And they follow her back, but they get back right after. Her. She's been sacrificed. And they now have to basically, like, you know, they're part of it. They can't leave because they've sort of found this like, great secret through tracking their friend. And they have to, like, learn about, like, the Jellicle ways and like this process. And they, they end up, like, talking with the people who like, deeply resent Grizabella, people who like, deeply respect her and revere her. And like, they're bringing to it, like, our perspective of like, well, this is all deeply fucked up, you understand. But like, no one, no one within the Jellicle circle, like, gets it. And I think that that would be like an amazing conversation to have, like, in the world of cats, but still, between cats,

[35:33] Mike Abrams: I like it. I have a different angle than I'm always let me hear, I kind of teased a little bit in my episode with Peter because Peter is, I think, pretty much only a 2016 revival cat, and kind of a very weird cat in the first place. But there is a rumor that there's a baby Grizabella, which is an ensemble character that is in the very first dance, so that. And then the fact that it was Peter, which would I, I kind of joked, was the st Peter is, I think she goes to every side layer, and you get a goats, of ghosts, of like, cats must pass. It would be the angle I would take. And she comes back with Peter, and they're in the first dance number. But then you kind of get to see, I think you do the inverse of what the cat currently is. She gets to see all the lives she ruined in year two because she got picked and they didn't, and all the aftermath of that.

[36:19] Speaker 2: Oh, so, like, so, okay, yeah, well, I mean, this begs the question of, like, what's beyond the Heaviside Layer? Like, where does she where she going? Like, we think she gets reborn, but like, what cat can attest to that we don't know. We who can prove it? It could be, like, they could get turned into cat food, and it could be like a Cloud Atlas scenario. We don't know.

[36:36] Mike Abrams: So, it's her, it's her and Peter, and they're coming back, and they're doing cat by cat, what's happening now in their

[36:42] Speaker 2: life? She, is she a ghost? Is she a ghost, or is she like the baby Grizabella in the beginning? So I think you,

[36:48] Mike Abrams: you know, without spoiling the ending, you could, you could have, you could have her be reborn. You could have her realize that that she was not the right choice and wants to go back. You know, there's a lot of different ways you can. You could end this. It just depends on what cats to, you know, how much of a sequel Do you want to make? Is it gonna be more like Oceans 12, or is it gonna be more like, right? You know, a different sequel, right? We could

[37:09] Speaker 2: do it like the Jurassic Park franchise, in which every movie is exactly the same, like, we just keep making the same mistake, like that. Could that could be, I mean, they've been very successful with that. So we could do the same thing. Oh, my God. What if Isabella goes to the Heaviside Layer and, like, the the moon, or whatever their like diet is, like, sends her back, and she's reborn into the body of, like, Mongo Jerry and like, that's the life that she gets to live. Basically, she has to live every single cat's life until she becomes like the moon itself, right? Like this, like all seeing perspectives

[37:39] Mike Abrams: right now, like, 20 movies now, well, we, we'd

[37:41] Speaker 2: like, speed it up, because that would get tedious. There's like, so many cats and like, what is she gonna do? But it would be like, every episode she's like, living the life or attending to the life of, like, a different cat, sort of failing, right? Because she was successful. So maybe she sort of has to, like, take that with her. I don't know. I think there's a lot of, I think there's a

[37:58] Mike Abrams: lot, maybe Groundhog's Day, where she wakes up as a different cat every day,

[38:01] Speaker 2: right? Groundhog Day? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Or maybe it's like one of the cockroaches from like the Jenny Annie dots number, like, there's infinite possibilities.

[38:11] Mike Abrams: Okay, I we've we've debated my main thesis. We've written cats two. We've written cats 234, and five. I do want to hear a couple quick things. Who would you want to be? Who would you want to play? If you were playing

[38:25] Speaker 2: in the show, I think I would want to play Mr. Most awfully, because I like the idea that it's not clear if there's like real magic to what he does, or if it's like just like showmanship, and also that role is like incredibly, like athletic and Ricky in the revival has an amazing ass. And I would like to think that I too would have an amazing ass if given the chance to play Mr. Mustafa lees,

[38:54] Mike Abrams: Okay, favorite song.

[39:01] Speaker 2: I think, I think the first song, um, what is it? Hold on. What is it? The one where they it's like the first song about, like, welcome to the Jellicle Ball, or whatever. Um, I think it's just called the Jellicle Ball, right? I was listening to cats earlier, and I'm sure that I have it up still, but, yeah, it's like, whatever. Like the first one, which is like, Practical Cats to spec, but like that, that song, I think, is so wild, and it achieves so much in like, like, such a short amount of time. But also, like, manages to tell you absolutely nothing about, like, what's about to happen. Like, I love that song. They might

[39:30] Mike Abrams: be there all the time, the naming of the cats. It's the one right before,

[39:34] Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, where they're like, marching around. Someone hits a high C, like, I don't know. I do love, like, opening numbers in general. And that's sort of like the opening number. I also like, I really, I dig memory. I really dig memory, specifically memories, sung by Manny Paris, who's the, who the grizzabel that I saw? Mammy? Is it mammy? Is that?

[39:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah, she was awesome. I did talk with incredible. I got to see her in the because I saw the first one I saw was Leon Les, the second one saw was her. Yeah. She was amazing. It

[40:01] Speaker 2: was one of the most incredible, astounding performances I've ever seen. So when I listen to that song, I specifically seek out, like, clips of her doing it. There's one from like, the Macy's Day Parade that's like a Thanksgiving themed like, cat's performance. And I cannot tell you how many times I've watched specifically that

[40:17] Mike Abrams: that's that's amazing. Which cat would you want to be quarantined with if you were stuck?

[40:25] Speaker 2: Um, how do people answer this? Have Has anyone else? Have you had a few

[40:29] Mike Abrams: people that have answered but there's I, there's a lot. It's a wide range of choices. It's a wide range

[40:34] Speaker 2: of choices. Um, I think I would have to go with Ram Tom Tugger, not because I have like, this, like, weird attraction to him, but just because he seems like fun and someone that I feel like, I feel like he's like an extroverted introvert, like, after he's done performing and like, doing his thing, he probably just like, sit back and chill and like watch anime. And that's very much my vibe

[40:54] Mike Abrams: that. So that's it's interesting to say that, because I think I'm the inverse version of that for the same reason, which is why I want bus for Jones, because I know I'm gonna eat. Well, yeah, I think he's probably a little bit more outgoing than he shows off. Yeah. And so we'd probably have some some good bourbon and drinks and food and everything, and just kind of hang out. And he'd be fun person to chat with. I think he'd be

[41:15] Speaker 2: fun. I think he'd have good stories. I would just worry about like, like sharing snacks and like, territoriality. He doesn't seem to be someone who, like, exercises a lot of restraint. In fact, it seems like a, like a character trait of his that, like he'll just eat whatever. And I can just tell you, if I, like, opened up a can of Pringles that I was really looking forward to, and it was like three Pringles left. There were, it would be a massacre. It would be a murder. Yeah, they'd be gone. Cat cuts everywhere. Yeah, he would, I would send him right to the jello, to the to the HEPA side layer, if you know what I mean.

[41:45] Mike Abrams: Love it. Love it. All right. So I think we've covered everything I'm looking through here. I think we covered every single thing that I wanted to ask you. So I guess let me ask you the important questions, which is, how do we stay in touch with you on social media. How do we get your book like, Hmm,

[42:02] Speaker 2: listeners, if you haven't had like, enough of this, I talk about cats all the time. So I truly like if you want more of this, let me know. It's something I love talking about. But you can find me on Twitter. I'm mostly on Twitter at reality R Y, a l, i, t y. Honestly, if you Google Ryan La Salle, there's not many of us, so I'll probably come up. I'm on Twitter. I've got an Instagram. I make YouTube videos. Probably do need to make a YouTube video about cats, because, again, the narrative structure, I think, is very specific, needs to be talked about. And my book reverie came out in December 2019, so you can pick that up. I've got a second book called bedazzled coming out in January 2021 which is about two ex boyfriends who are taking out their breakup over a competitive arts and crafts competition. So if you like costuming or any of that, or like cosplay, it's about cosplay. That book would be for you. And I've got other books that are in the works that I think will appeal to many cats fans. Amazing,

[43:00] Mike Abrams: amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me. This has been an absolute pleasure. And yeah, any, any parting cats words for for the listeners, you can't break the fourth wall because it's a podcast, but what's your you know, give us the duty dense, dense ending, give

[43:14] Speaker 2: me the duty dent ending. Do what you can to suppress the curve of Coronavirus, because my number one priority in life is getting to go back to cats in person. And I think there's nothing that is as like substantial and like foundationally shaking as like seeing that in person with someone who's never seen it before. If you ever get the chance to like trick someone into going to see cats like, Absolutely, please do that. So in the meantime, stay safe, stay well, but we have to do our best to not succumb to a pandemic. In part because I need to go see cats again in person. It's very important that I

[43:47] Mike Abrams: do that at least a couple more times, at least, yeah,

[43:49] Speaker 2: I mean, I was really planning on going three more times this year, and you know, at that rate, I'm not, I'm never gonna make my goal. So please think of me. You

[44:03] Mike Abrams: amazing. Thank you again, and for everyone else to follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else that you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check us out on our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.