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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome to

[0:30] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown the cat. Sash free. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was on the most recent US national tour of cats as monkeys track. So welcome Dan Hoyt, thanks for joining. Thank you for having me. I am very excited because I have not been able to ask a lot of questions about monk to to anybody in the cast. I'm excited that you can kind of humor me with some of the stuff that either are real rumors, rumors I made up, and everything in between, but we'll get there. I want to start with kind of your cat's history. So walk me through, when was the first time you saw it like, did you see as a kid? What was your your first interaction with the show?

[1:07] Speaker 3: So it's actually funny that you asked this, because when I was on the road, I you know that Lady Gaga joked when, like, she said the same story 100 times. Like, when you walk into a room with 100 people and one person says, and they like, made the compilations. You can make a compilation of the story I'm about to tell with the amount of times that I have told this story. But when I was a kid, I had the VHS tape of the 1998 the pro shot, yep, I watched it so many times that I actually broke the VHS. My parents had to buy me the DVD. So I was actually obsessed with the show as a kid. I was one of my first introductions to musical theater, and then never did it growing up, never, never had a chance to do it until this production. And this was my first show out of college, so it was a really cool full circle moment for me, like the show that I had loved so much growing up, finally, getting to kind of jump in and do it.

[2:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so Did you see the movie before you saw any stage production or vice versa? I saw the

[2:08] Speaker 3: movie first I saw the film version, and then I saw, I don't know which tour it would have been, because I don't remember what year it was, but there was a tour that I'm from Cleveland, Ohio originally. So there was a tour that either came through Cleveland or Akron, that I would have seen when I was a kid growing up.

[2:24] Mike Abrams: So you burned through a 1998 VHS, thankfully, they didn't buy a second, bought a DVD. And so how many times you think you've seen that was this like an everyday thing, because I burned through two Tommy Boy? VHS, okay, when I was growing up, and we watched it almost daily. It

[2:42] Speaker 3: was, it was a daily occurrence. This, for me, would have been, I knew every line. I knew I was doing choreo when I was four. I was excited me, so, yeah, this was, this is probably a daily occurrence. I knew it like the back of my hand. And what's funny is because I watched that version so many times, until I got older, I didn't actually know that growl Tiger was a part of the show originally, like at all, because I wasn't in the 98 version. So I remember listening to the original Broadway recording when I was a little bit older, and I'm like, What is this? This is weird. I don't know what this is.

[3:18] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, we'll be fine, because all of my knowledge is the 1998 movie in the 2016 revival, because I have no history with any other version of it, and so I'm the same way. I'm like, Well, if it wasn't in that movie, and it wasn't the my two time seeing the revival, I have no idea what you're talking about half the time, but when you were that age watching it, were you Did you always think you were going to be monkey strap? Or were you there? Who were you like? Who would you sing and play most? There

[3:43] Speaker 3: were a few characters. So for me, Monk was always someone who I was. I was drawn to, but I always wanted to play either Tugger or bomb Valley Arena, because mccavity is far too catchy. Macavity is far too catchy. So I would run around the house all the time. You know, he was like, mechanic, like, I'm like, this, like, little four year old, like, strutting down the steps and stuff. Yeah, those would have been the only other two. But monk I just liked, and I can't remember, off the top of my head right now, the guy who played it in the 98th version, but he his presence is so impressive in that film. Like, he really just takes up the stage. And I remember being really, really drawn to that, probably even a little bit more in the character

[4:26] Mike Abrams: itself. I don't think I realized when I first started researching the show or watching, seeing the show, how important monk is to the entire process. And now it's kind of like, oh, this is a significant character that has a lot of arc and angle to it. And so I'm thinking back to you, as you said, four wondering, like, did you really realize that it's like the narrator has such an important piece, or are you like me? And it was just like, oh, tug. My stove is like, the ones that are just kind of like, especially my stuff is. Me when I saw that movie, I was like, he's shooting lasers out of his arms, and there's, like, I don't know, the rainbow flag and everything. I was like, it was just like an experience and so but I also watched it as a, you know, my life for the first what's

[5:14] Speaker 3: funny is, I actually didn't even realize that the character's name was monkey strap for the longest of times. I just knew him as like the narrator cat, you know, because he doesn't, he doesn't get his own song. And the only time that his name is mentioned is in the naming of cats when they're saying a bunch of other nonsense names. So you're like, you're like, who is, who is this person, and why is he singing at me? But despite that, I didn't need, I didn't need to know his name as a kid. I just knew that he was a presence, and that was someone I was interested in.

[5:47] Mike Abrams: That's that's impressive for that age, to be able to recognize the importance of a character that doesn't have like their their names sung 1000 times, which is like every other cat, basically, that you, that you get to see. So you then you, did you as a at that age? Did you realize all the like, when did you kind of realize the undertones that go into this show? Was it not till you learned it, or you got to do it in the tour, like, or did you pick up on it sometime in college? Or at that point that was like, Oh, this is a very different show than just what I sang and danced around to as a kid. I'll say as a kid,

[6:25] Speaker 3: I did understand the story of rejection and of redemption there, because that's Isabella, where it's clearly the tribe has ostracized her for some reason and has banned her for some reason, and she is working to remedy that problem that I picked up on at a pretty young age.

[6:46] Speaker 4: The I was thinking more of the like the fact that the ball is an origin, yeah,

[6:50] Speaker 3: okay, well, all of that that came, I mean, that was that would have been when I was much older, because, I mean, I, well, I loved it as a kid. I didn't engage with it much until I then booked the show and then went back and then went back and watched it, and it's interesting watching it now. Like there's that sequence in the ball where, in the original 98 version, like, Victoria's like, leaning back, and I don't know who it is, but someone's scratching all up on her, and they're getting all involved. And I'm like, oh, oh, this is all sex. Yeah, this is all cat sex. Five minutes of cat sex. School guy did not pick up that as a kid, but all of you know all the sexual undertones and all of the fan theories. Oh my god, there are fan theories on fan theories on fan theories. And I gotta tell you, some of them are pretty accurate to what we talk about with the creatives in the show. Some of them are actually very accurate, but we'll get there.

[7:44] Mike Abrams: Well that, so let's go into that. I love hearing what you were told. So you get, you know, you get the part. And it's kind of, you know, there, there is a story, there is all this backstory, and then there's some nuances, because there's characters who were friends before, and that's why they kind of play off of it. There's some staging aspects that, like, sometimes these cats are together in one production and not in another production. And so people have their theories based on that. What were you told for your production? And I would say I would love for you to tell me as many cats as you can, but especially about monkeys chat like, what is his backstory. What is the, what do we need to really know about?

[8:24] Speaker 3: Oh, God, see, we could be here for four hours doing this so, so, just to start what's what's really cool, actually is, and what makes cats really unique, beyond just, you know, unitards and Yak wigs. We the story is malleable, and it changes production to production based on just what's kind of created in the room. There are a lot of relationships that are very solidified, but a lot of the nuances, it's why you have the different productions coming off in different ways, because they're developed in different ways, different relationships are formed. I don't know many other shows that have that much freedom within its plot, because the plot isn't as structured. I mean, that's just the reality. No one's pretending like cats has a structured plot. But one of our first I think it was actually the first week of rehearsal, we sat down with Chrissy Cartwright, who had been involved with the original production back in the 80s, and we had a three hour session where she broke down the entirety of the show, all of the relationships, all of the nuances, all of the sort of moment to moment interactions for us as they were sort of originally broken down by in the room, by like Trevor Nunn in that original production. So for monk, you know, monk is the son of Old Deuteronomy. He is tuggers brother. Often, he is considered McCabe's brother as well, and his for me, you know, like the primary objective throughout the show is to prove my worth. I am to succeed Old Deuteronomy in leadership of the trade. Vibe. So the evening for me is to prove that I can lead a Jellicle Ball and I can do it effectively and without problems, which obviously doesn't happen. But a lot of the show is about improving himself, and in terms of his relationships, I think that what he ends up discovering is that he is very drawn in by at least in our production. And this is why I want to talk to you, because I know that you have a theory that we'll get into.

[10:29] Mike Abrams: I do have a theory. I think, I think I made up, but I'm glad to hear that there's some, there is some merit to it.

[10:35] Speaker 3: So and in other productions, I loved hearing it, because I listen, if you listen to the previous episode about monkey strap, which I had before this. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that actually is a very, very viable theory, but we'll get there for our production. And kind of what we developed in the room was that Demeter and monkey straps relationship is newer, and the and it is well, so Demeter has just gotten out of this abusive relationship with Macavity, and she has been trying to escape that, that relationship that she had gotten drawn into, and monk who has this sort of protector complex, is kind of immediately drawn to her and they and it takes time, but throughout the show, When he first approaches her in a more intimate way, particularly during the ball, she's very hesitant. She doesn't want that physical contact because of the relationship she had had with Macavity. But the reason in my brain that Macavity had returned was because he had claimed ownership over Demeter, and it's the reason monkey strap, then fights. He fights for her honor. And then in our show, it's only after the fight that Demeter actually allows monkey strap to come in and have that pure moment of intimacy. There's a moment, and just because there was a moment downstage where, after the fight, he's beaten, he's bruised, she comes up and she finally, just like offers, offers her paw offers herself, sort of thing. So that was, that was kind of what we used as, as the motivation for that relationship. So you're

[12:08] Mike Abrams: not fighting to defend your father's honor, to basically get your father back. You're fighting for Demeter, in

[12:15] Speaker 3: a way. I mean, obviously, there's obviously old dude around kidnapped as well, and he is the de facto leader of the tribe at this time. So his job is to protect so there are all of those layered on top, but ultimately, Demeter is at the core of that fight, at least with the revival fight. It starts with him, with Macavity dragging Demeter across. I mean, there are parts where he's dragging Demeter across the stage. Alonzo has to break it up, and he keeps returning to her, he keeps targeting her. So I think for monk, that's just the extra so not only do I have to protect my tribe, but I have to now prove to Demeter that she can escape this relationship and that she can be here with me and that'll be safe.

[12:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's that's your hero moment for for your love interest. There's so many angles to the show that you you just don't pick up when you watch it. Because I the first time, you know, again, I don't remember basically anything from the first time I actually saw it on stage. I mean, I remember Mungo, Jerry Rumpel teaser and in memory, and just some pieces of it. I was like, Oh, that was super fun. And that's, it looks like there's cockroaches in my son. That's kind of weird. Then I saw it again, a little bit more intoxicated. So that one I really narrowly as much either. But then when I watched the 1998 movie, I was like, Okay, now let's piece together what I'm what I'm missing, like, what's, what's the storyline? And my interpretation of the fight was Old Deuteronomy is kidnapped and monk as the like, next in line, basically, is going to fight the kidnapper to get him back so he can make his local choice and, you know, prove that he's kind of ready to go on. It wasn't until I read the rumor that it was Demeter and monk, potentially were together with a child, that I had that whole kind of like, oh, and that's a different layer to this, because I think there's three ways i The three timelines I had for this, and this was, again, I just always assumed people listen to all these episodes, which is probably very naive, but if you listen to the monkeys trap episode, the three options I kind of had was, is that if you assume that there's the abusive relationship with macavi and Demeter, which is, I think, a fair assumption, and that you had As Mungus trap a child with Demeter, which is the other kind of rumor, not that it's like a budding relationship, but it's that you actually have a child. You either had a child with her before she had the abusive relationship. You either she either left him to have a child with you and or it's after the relationship. So those are kind of the only three ways that I thought that this could go, and all of them are cheating, basically on your ex with their brother,

[14:52] Mike Abrams: sparks a fight, which? And so I think which I love, that's that's the way I kind of like read into this was okay. Now I. Yeah, the fight's not about Old Deuteronomy at all. It's Macavity attacking his brother for sleeping with his girlfriend. And

[15:07] Speaker 3: I love that I had never thought of. I had not thought of the child angle, but I really, really like it. And if I were to ever do the show again, I might want to marry that in there, because it not only then makes the fight about Demeter, but it also becomes protecting their child and what they've built together from what she used to have. So I actually really like that. I would love to see that built in. I think, I think that's really my end goal with this podcast now, is to just influence future productions with all the stuff that I think is missing from this plot or these angles. That's really where I'm at at this point is I have a couple I have a love triangle with Buster for Jones, jelly and Jenny, that I think has some merit that we can, you know, we can bake into the next production. I just want to be consulted. That's really what it boils down to. Well, we'll call Andy blank. Let him know next time. I'm

[15:59] Mike Abrams: sure exactly I know everything else about this I don't even know, like this is gonna be my next question is gonna prove exactly that point was Cassandra, even in your production, she was, she was okay. She's not in everyone, right? I think she's what a cat that sometimes gets left out. And that's the other rumors that you had a child with Cassandra.

[16:18] Speaker 3: That was not an angle that we took. We took more meet Cassandra in our production, who was played by the incredible Mariah Reeves for, I believe, the duration that I was on the tour, just absolutely remarkable. She was always sort of the I am, I'm holier than thou. I'm better than you. I don't need this. I'm here out of obligation, but I don't really need you. With, sort of her vibe throughout, but

[16:45] Speaker 4: doesn't mean you couldn't have a little litter.

[16:50] Speaker 3: But no, I kind of, I'm interested in seeing monk being the one to form multiple relationships, you know, especially to escape sort of that pressure of of leadership. You know, I like that. I would want I this is again, like, if I ever got to approach the role again. Mike, how did I not know these beforehand? I mean, you know, you have to do some

[17:13] Mike Abrams: deep digging on the internet rumor mill to find these things. What? What else? Well, the other rumor that that I saw, that's kind of a little, kind of a strange one, to be honest, is that you're from one of the wealthy owners. And there's just, like a list of cats that I think it's based on the fact that you have a collar, or some of the cats have a collar that you come from wealthy owner. But macavities not on that list, and neither is Tugger, which is kind of a weird thing, of like, if they're siblings, did the family only adopt like, half the letter, yeah, or something like

[17:49] Speaker 3: that. I would say that. So the collar thing is actually accurate. That is something we talked about. If you had a collar, you had an owner. I do. I do think that, personally, Tugger has an owner. I think that's why he can remain so aloof, because he doesn't have to think about survival. He's like, You give me chicken. I want salmon, you know, you know, f you whatever. But the wealthy owner is what was, what's interesting to me, because for me, I mean, I guess maybe because he's lived in a little bit more luxury.

[18:21] Mike Abrams: So the list is you, Buster for Jones, skimble Shanks, Mustafa is Victoria, mungle Jerry and rumble

[18:29] Speaker 3: teaser. And the thing is, I agree with with a lot of the others on that list. Maybe not Victoria, but the other ones, I mean, Buster for Jones, absolutely. Mungle Jerry, Rumble teaser, 100% because they're stealing from their owners. So yeah, I mean maybe, and maybe that's why he's been able to focus so much on, you know, leading the tribe. It's because he doesn't have to think about surviving. Whereas mccavity Maybe was the one who was left out, ooh, ooh, maybe he was the one who was left out and wasn't given and did not find an owner, and that is what drives his resentment towards his brothers. Interesting.

[19:02] Mike Abrams: I could see that it's next angle. We're rewriting the story as we go. What other you said that there's a lot of other fan rumors and fictions that are that are real, that are kind of baked in? What what other ones are there that you that your cast consciously was like, Yeah, we're gonna

[19:22] Speaker 3: play. I mean, like, Bombay arena being, like, super into Tugger, like all, like, all the female cats and Tugger, essentially. I mean, it's a little built in. But like, more, some of those more sexual relationships, the very explicit relationships between Bombay arena, Demeter and mccavity, those are all. Those were all in there. Um, it's funny that, what about you mentioned

[19:48] Speaker 3: that was necessarily baked in, though. I will say, and I won't say that's all the fan fiction. I won't say who or where, but there, I know that there have been times where tuggers and most athletes have gotten together and. Real Life, because that tux, definitely stuff is so powerful.

[20:04] Mike Abrams: There is some very graphic fan fiction about it. It's, it's the most amount of fan fiction that's out there for the show. And so it's like the one that I've definitely like. I kind of did see that the songs are kind of related. They you know, they sing for each other. It's kind of a, you know, little scoff when they're starting. It's a little bit of, like the pent up sexual energy. But I always do wonder if that's something that's played into, or if it's just show by Well, it wasn't

[20:32] Speaker 3: something that was played into for our production. I really like the idea of it, like, I like the because there is, there was actually a really big thing that we talked about, you know, as queer people in the show. You know, I'm, I'm a member of the alphabet mafia. I had my, you know, fellow castmates that were as well. Something that we were all drawn to the show about is that, you know, people are being intimately involved with each other throughout the show, regardless of gender. It's just very like men are lifting men. Women are lifting women. Men and women are getting together. So I love the idea, I love the idea that Tugger is getting up with the women, he's getting up with the men he's getting up with the them that, you know, the themes of days, the he's the she's who cares. Who cares? You know, it's just about what you want and who you love. They're

[21:17] Mike Abrams: just because they're exactly, they're just all cats, which is kind of, you know, part of that. And

[21:21] Speaker 3: I love it. So I, again, when we put up a production, Mr. Mike, I will be sure that the tug so we stuff is, is explicit in that not explicit.

[21:34] Mike Abrams: I don't, I don't say I don't need to write that. That script for you. There's a, there's plenty out there for you. So the other part I'm really interested hearing about is the Old Deuteronomy relationship. Because I did, we talked about a little bit in the beginning that it's, you know, you're up next. There seems to be a lot of question marks on, when is Old Deuteronomy going? Is it? Because, you know, it's like, is he even eligible to go the heavy side layer? He's making the decision, like, when is your turn? And so I've been very curious about, like, we get one ball, one year, one kind of decision. Or, I guess I always assume the decisions the annual there's that's not okay. So it's an annual decision. Are you up next year? What happens Old Deuteronomy? If you are up next year? Is he going to be doing this for eternity? Like, does he have other lives to live? Is he going to be a Jellicle choice one year? Like, what does that what does that look like?

[22:29] Speaker 3: So, from my perspective, Deuteronomy knows that his time is coming soon. I think that's that's kind of a driving force for monks. He they all know that Deuteronomy is getting older and his time is coming. So the question then becomes, who is going to become then the Old Deuteronomy figure. And you know, there are a lot of those sort of Judeo Christian heavenly pieces of imagery and allegory throughout the show. So it's like he's sort of the son of who is this God, like figure, trying to step into that role. So I would say, for me, it's Deuteronomy is going in the next year or two, he is going back to the Heaviside Layer to begin his next life. And monk is trying to be prepared for that. And he before Deuteronomy goes, he wants the affirmation that he's ready, because I think there is a lot of monk is extraordinarily high strung throughout a lot of the show, because he desperately wants and needs tonight to go perfectly, to the point that I think he actively offends others at times because he's so desperate to have everything be exactly as he planned it. He doesn't want any that's why he's upset when Tugger interrupts. He's upset when, obviously, everyone's frightened when the cavity shows up. He hates when things are going off script, because this is how he envisioned him proving himself to Deuteronomy. And I think what he learns throughout the show, and ultimately, what Grizabella teaches him and what Deuteronomy leads him to understand, is that leadership does not come through tyranny. Leadership comes through understanding. And that is, and that's also just one of those reasons that I love this show. Because obviously, if you were a first time viewer of this, you would never get that you see a bunch of people in Unitarians jumping around, flying or whatever. Yeah, flying or whatever, but the more that you watch the show, and the more that you kind of let go of the fact that it is absurd. It's Absurdism. It's Absurdism. I mean, it's modern day musical theater, Absurdism. You can find those meanings on your own. You get to kind of find those interpretations. And that was what it was for me. That's the relationship with Deuteronomy is the desperation for acceptance and validation becoming a moment of understanding, Oh, I understand now why you are, how you are, and how to be a good leader. In

[24:52] Mike Abrams: that vein, a piece I find super interesting because, because I've had a lot of back and forth on if Old Deuteronomy is going to go to the. We said layer at any point, or if he's never going, or if he's done, and he's the he's the decision maker. If monk is trapped proved his worth, why doesn't he go this year? Like, why doesn't he go instead of Grizabella? If he knows that you're ready,

[25:16] Speaker 3: because I think that, and you've kind of done that, monk is being groomed for a different role. I think monk is being groomed to become the next Deuteronomy, so that Deuteronomy can find his peace in the heavy side layer and then come back and relive his life and be able to get why can't that be the end of the show? Oh, that could be. Oh, I think that absolutely could be. I think that that would be a wonderful little transition point where Deuteronomy decides you've, you've proved

[25:43] Mike Abrams: your worth, son, you've, yeah, you've, you've made it. So if anything is your kingdom, it's a little lying, it's a little lion king. There's your kingdom. So although the father's gone in that movie by that point. So

[25:52] Speaker 3: I guess I just, you know, discredited monkey strap for being the cat who should have died. But in that vein, I do think that Deuteronomy could have been the one so that monk could then take on his rightful mantle as, yeah, I

[26:07] Mike Abrams: never really ranked monk shot. I mean, I did, because we, I ranked everybody, but it's this. This was never in the competition. His his job was to be the next judge, like he wants to be the next judge, so he doesn't want to go. And so I think that looking at it from that angle is kind of, you know, you can, because you base it on just, you know how fun they are. And he's but he's not. But I do think if we're going to say that Old Deuteronomy could go that, then we're saying could have went this year, could have made his own decision, we could have a very different end. Because

[26:39] Speaker 3: I think by the end, Monk understands the core that Deuteronomy was trying to teach him, the core principle of acceptance, essentially. But now

[26:50] Speaker 4: you've got to go through another full ball exactly. I have to, and so I have to still making the decision to

[26:55] Speaker 3: help plan next year's ball. Because here's the thing, Deuteronomy comes to judge, but I genuinely believe that he does not plan any of the evening's engagements anymore. He comes in because he comes in half, like three fourths of the way through Act One, right before the ball begins. He, you know, Todd's, and he just observes, but he doesn't plan anything that's happening. I'm the one. I've set, I've set the list. I have helped, you know, you know, determine who's going when the order of which things are happening, you know. So monk now has to now essentially be the event planner for next year's Jellicle Ball all over again. But I do think that with the knowledge from this one, he'll be a little bit more flexible and understanding of people's positions. But he has to do all of he has to go through all the steps again, all the hoops, all over just to prove the same thing. Yeah, everything just for it. I also when

[27:43] Mike Abrams: we could have ended cats one, and we could have all Deuteronomy, and then we could

[27:48] Speaker 3: have gone into cats too, because you may know that Andrew Lloyd Webber loves his sequels. Love never dies. Yeah, I actually did want to introduce because I don't know if you've heard this, this theory. It's not really a canonical theory, but it was something we talked about a bit in the cast with all due the cast with Old Deuteronomy. Have you ever heard the theory that Old Deuteronomy is actually just a serial killer? No, okay, more. So in the original, like the 98 version, I believe in the original production, there was Grizabella didn't fly. She went up a flight of stairs. So the theory was that Old Deuteronomy was claiming that people were going to the heavy side layer, but what he was really doing was leading them to us like a staircase of trash that led to like a fence, killing them, pushing them over the side, and then claiming that whoever was born next was just the reincarnation of whoever had just died. So really, what he's done is he's formed this cult of cats that genuinely believe that death is the sort of escape to the next realm and that you're going to be reborn, and that all these things are going to happen, when in reality, all he's doing is satiating his need to kill while getting willing victims to basically audition for, for the for the for the honor.

[29:08] Mike Abrams: I love that because it's so ridiculous. I've not heard that I could see it. It fits. I mean, it's already a really dark show. So anything you tell me at this point, I'm just like, Yeah, I mean, it's cats. It makes sense. Like, that could be the thing that is super interesting. So then he's kind of using the cavity as the bad guy. That's like a cover I'm seeing, like, here's a guy that's going to pretend to kidnap me, but really, that's just so I, you know, I look like the, you know, I'm the victim in this, in my crime scene. I just thought

[29:39] Speaker 3: of a I hadn't actually thought about this before, but maybe the whole thing is that he's actually just secretly mccaviddy and disguise. They're never, they're very rarely on stage at the same time. So he comes on and he creates the common enemy, and then comes back magically, and it's like, Oh, see, everything's fine. Who's Who's going to the heavy side later.

[29:56] Mike Abrams: Now they're not in the fight scene on the same at the same time.

[29:59] Speaker 3: The. Their own. They're on stage for the kidnap when he actually kidnaps him, okay, but you could argue that was because there are, like, cats that go and dress up as doubles and things like that. You could argue like anything like that. But when He returns, so Deuteronomy is not on for the fight mccaviddy, you know, is defeated. Then Mr. Police happens, and then Deuteronomy returns, but McCabe is never on stage again with Deuteronomy. I had to

[30:27] Mike Abrams: go. He had to go, like, watch the last spot. Yeah, you know, he's gonna take care of some business. Oh, man, if that's the case, then you know, who's, you know who's then this is how I'm adding to this theory, because I do love it. I think Buster for Jones is hiring the hits. Oh

[30:45] Mike Abrams: got the money. There was a little bit that fits with my love triangle. Issue with with uh, grizzabella, that grizzabel and him had a past. There were some issues there. And so that's why this hit gets called, I love and serial killer. Old Deuteronomy comes and take cares, but takes care of this. I'm so glad that children go there. Yeah, right. Like, can you imagine, if you imagine, like, you watch this, you said, it's like a four year old, and this is you watch, you burn through a VHS. And one of the very plausible theories of the show is that the main decision making cats actually is serial killer,

[31:21] Speaker 3: actually a serial killer. And killer. And so, yeah, as a four year old, you get to see all of the cats having orgies, the serial killer removing targets by a wealthy man. And, you know, intent abusive relationship,

[31:35] Mike Abrams: yeah, and, you know, and then the brother having a child with the other, you know, with the abused relationship. Oh,

[31:44] Speaker 3: I love it. Oh, this should be a mini series. This should be like an expanded mini series, right here,

[31:49] Mike Abrams: somebody is out there writing this, this fan fiction, because it's, it's, again, I read a little bit of it, and then I just found so much took off, please? I just was like, I can't, I gotta stop. I can't read any more of this. I was trying to find something, you know, real or of value, and I just found a bunch of, like, erotica. Yeah, I

[32:08] Speaker 3: was gonna say, so much erotica, so much erotica out there. Yeah,

[32:13] Mike Abrams: that is, I do think, like, the part of this show that's still so fascinating to me is that I really think if you're a male, you remember the cavity song. If you're a female, you remember Tugger song, or, you know, not male female, but if you are interested in men or interested in women, you're probably going to gravitate to those two songs. There's Mungo Jerry rebel teaser, which is just, I thought was the most fascinating, like just dance number and super catchy. They build the train Mustafa lees, and then never Yeah. And it's like, there's a lot. Everything else is like, I did not piece any of the rest together, and I don't any. I don't think that most

[32:50] Speaker 3: people, most people who are coming to see cats, are going to piece that together. And that's and that's not a slam on anyone you know. And I, I have so much respect for, like, the Die Hard cats fans who do come and they do find that meaning. And, like, it's, it is genuinely, like, after the show, when you talk to people that are like this, like, the meaning I found in the piece, I'm like, Oh, my God, we got to bring that to you. That's amazing. Like, that means a lot, like, as an actor and as a performer, but for the most part, people are going, it's crazy cool dancing, you know, it's been, you know, and in the revival in particular, I mean, like the lighting design is crazy. So, you know, it's, you know, you get all these, these amazing moments where lights are flashing across stage and things are exploding and people are flipping and pirouetting, and someone's, you know, Belton, some, some crazy high note, and then great unit arts, jazz hands. You know what I mean, that's what most people are dealing with. It is entertainment in its purest form.

[33:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that was the you know, as much as I poked fun of it when I saw it the first time, I was still like, this is an incredible feat for everyone participating in this. Because as not a dancer, not a singer, I was like this, it takes some absurd athleticism to be able to get through the the entire show, because it was just non stop. And then, you know, even an Old Deuteronomy who's not doing as much of the dancing, I was like, well, that costume looks horrifically and you're gonna sit on stage during intermission and you're just gonna hang out and let people take selfies with you. And so it's just like, everything about the whole production was just an experience, which I did appreciate as, like, just a, you know, a fan of going to theater. I was very much entertained, but I also was very confused. Was a little bit, like, very unsure of what I actually witnessed. And then it was like, I kind of could piece together some of the, like, I could see some of the sexual undertones and some of these other things. Then we start digging, it's like, oh no, there's a serial killer cat. Yeah,

[34:43] Speaker 3: exactly. Well, and that's the thing about the plot is it's it's meant because it's meant to be more of even in its creation. And the original creators mean, Chrissy Cartwright is the first person to admit, like the plot of cats is, it's abstract, it's absurd. You're meant to find more meaning in it. As an audience member by kind of piecing it together for your for yourself, creating your own backstories, your own through lines, than it is like us telling you this is the story that we're presenting, which makes it a very unique piece of musical theater. There isn't much else out there like it, but, yeah, it's a very, very hard show to do eight times a week. But, you know, we, uh, we managed. We managed for the most part.

[35:26] Mike Abrams: So you kind of led into my next question, Did you see the new movie?

[35:28] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I did see the new movie. So as a monkey's chat,

[35:33] Mike Abrams: you, you are the narrator in the, in the, you know, theater production. And there is a different lens that the movie, new movie goes through. What was your take watching as someone who's been in the cast, knows the you know the backstory and everything. What was your take on the new

[35:51] Speaker 3: movie, believe it or not? So let me, let me talk specifically bunk first. I actually I liked how they approached that with Robbie Fairchild. I actually did. I think that by because they changed, obviously, the context of how we see the story into Victoria's journey into the tribe, right? So I think you still get his defensiveness. I think that you still get his initial fear and aggression. I do think you lose a little bit of his control over the evening. I think that in the show there's a lot there are a lot more moments where he has control over what's happening in the night. There's a lot more narrative moments. There are a lot more moments where it's like, I've made these decisions, or why is this interruption happening? And that's more of his driving force. But what was interesting with Robbie Fairchild is it became more of who are you with Victoria, who are you? Why are you here? Okay, you seem like someone who may be able to be accepted here. I'm gonna guide you through what you would need to do. He became more of a nurturing force. And I actually think that it was really effective. I really liked Robbie Fairchild's performance in the role there. There are other aspects now, talking about the film as a whole, there are a lot of aspects of the film I did not like, you know, just kind of straight up. I mean, the obvious one, and it's, it feels almost cheap to talk about it at this point, the CGI, I mean, the design decisions were, were poor. And I think, and I actually, and I have a philosophy here with this, you know, and it's that they just needed to make a decision on where they wanted to go. They needed to kind of either go full cat CGI animation, or they needed to find some creative way to keep them humanoid and not make them like Alan, like, I actually heard some really interesting approaches that were, like, I couldn't they have just used, like, interesting costuming and like, mask, you know, mask work to make it, you know, it's already absurd. Let's just buy into it and make it abstract. Or they needed to go, like, the full CGI animated route. And there was actually a film, a Spielberg pitch actually, for a cats film, for an animated cats film that was going to take place after the London Blitz, like everything happens in World War Two after the Blitz, they were going to have this whole evening, a whole animated piece that, to me, sounds more captivating than what they ended up doing from a directional perspective on the movie, because I think they just didn't make enough distinct and deliberate decisions with where they wanted to go, for sure,

[38:26] Mike Abrams: I did, think I did like the way they handled monkey strap. I thought the Victoria angle was actually very smart, because if you've not seen it, it's already very loose, like you need Hollywood needs a little bit more of a plot line. So they kind of gave it that the CGI was, you know, it's what got all the press, because it was also very rushed, which was very clear towards the end. I actually struggled most with the fact that there was such an incredible group of dancers that you never really got to see dance, because they just cut from scene to scene, the camera to camera. And instead of seeing like any movement, like, I would have just preferred a wide angle of like the ball, yeah. And instead of all these back and forth, Andy's choreo

[39:08] Speaker 3: is so cool, it's so cool in the film. And you know, there was, and I think this is public knowledge at this point, you know, there were a lot of around the 2016 revival. There were a lot of disagreements about what direction the choreography should take, you know, with the original versus kind of Andy's new direction. And so it was, there were a lot of times where original was kept and then a little bit of new was put in, or new was put in, a little bit of original was kept. What Andy got to do with the film was that he got to really put in a lot of what he wanted to do in its purest form, in his like, original vision. But what's there were two things that really bugged me about it, a just like you said, the CGI covered up, and the constant cuts. And, you know, because they were, they were treating it like some, like fast paced action film. It's like, if you know, like, there is a rule. It's like, every five seconds there has to be a cut. But what makes you know, like those, like old school musical theater films so good, is. You get to see everything, and you get to these, like long sweeping one takes, and it's so impressive that they can do that, and it lets you actually enjoy the choreography, and lets you actually enjoy the work. But yeah, so they the direction the CGI cover up a lot of what the cats are actually doing when it's really intriguing choreo. And secondly, there were a lot of times where I guess that the because Andy came in to replace someone else. I believe it was Wayne McGregor, something along those lines. I'm not sure, and I feel bad, because I know that he's a really prolific choreographer, particularly in the dance and ballet world, but I'm not remembering at this moment. I believe it's Wayne McGregor, but he was originally supposed to choreograph, and he backed out. So they had already had a lot of the shot lists done. They had already determined a lot of how they were going to shoot the film. And then Andy got on set, and they were like, cool. So this is going to be the shot. Can you choreograph something for this, rather than the other way around? Rather than, here's the choreography, let's shoot that. You know what I mean. So it became more about how we're going to shoot it, not how do we best serve what's actually being done. Now, you know, I have no judgment for you know Tom Hooper. I mean, I think he's a brilliant director in what and what he's got. I mean, kings, I mean his other work is very good, but I think his work with musical films has been a bit interesting at this point,

[41:21] Mike Abrams: most everyone's distanced themselves. That's tied to the film from the film, which is usually not a good sign. Let's, let's do the rapid fire, because I do want to get to, you know, the million dollar question. But if you were, I kind of asked this a little bit as the four year old you but if you were not going to be mocha strap and you were going to go, let's suspend any vocal range dance number, just if you could be anybody, which track would you want?

[41:52] Speaker 3: Oh, I want a belt out memory in the original key. And I love the I and, you know, and obviously, like Carrie Renee Fuller, who played it for my time on tour, stunning, amazing, brilliant, and this, but you know, the the idea of, you know, getting to come on stage a couple of times, having a few moments, and then just getting to scroll out memory and have everyone be with you in that moment. And also, I mean, her arc is really interesting as well. It's the constant rejection into finally, this is my story. This is my breakdown. This is my acceptance. But also, like, just that number, I would want to do that eight times a week. I just want to do that number eight times a

[42:28] Mike Abrams: week. Yeah, okay, what so Is that your favorite song? Or what's your favorite

[42:33] Speaker 3: song? See that that, I feel like that changes. It changes. And you know now that it's been about, it's been a little over a year now since you know, I've, I've been with, with the tour, and now I know it's going non x so you know, none of us are a part of that anymore, but I would say right now, my favorite song is the opening, which is crazy, but that's the most nostalgic. That's just, it's because it's the most nostalgic for me. It's, in my opinion, and this is maybe a controversial every opinion, I'm sure other performers will disagree with me, because they had to do a lot more throughout other parts. For me personally, the opening was the hardest part of the show, because you are shot out of a cannon. You are not given a second, you you come out, and immediately you are dancing your ass off. And the hard thing is, is finding breath while also having to sing. So you're scalping things out. You're dancing, you're exhausted, and you don't have a second to kind of warm up into it. You got to be ready to go right at the top. Whereas for the ball, you've had a whole act kind of build up to it. Now, granted monk moves. I mean, I would argue I'm a strong mover, but not but when you compare me to the people that were in the cast with me that are dancers, dancers. I'll gladly come do my little two second feature in the front where I do something kind of easy but kind of cool looking, and then go stand in the back and be like, what's going on. So that was me for most of the ball. But the opening brings, like, just, are you blind when you were born? Like, I just did come out and do that again like and I think it is also in part, because we're in the midst of everything that we're in the midst of, and desperately, desperately just wanting to be back on stage again. But I would give you know my left arm right now to go back out and get to do that opening number again.

[44:20] Speaker 3: year old me would probably say mccavity. Would probably say mccavity. That was the song that or Tugger. Those were the two that were always stuck in my head, and those were the two I was always like performing around the house and dancing to. I actually also did like the peaks and the pollicles, but not because I understood any of what was going on, or because I even remembered any of I didn't remember much of peaks and pelicans as a kid, but it was because of monk. Monk had this presence during that that was he finally got to kind of take control, which obviously changed for the revival and for the tour that was then Gus number. That monk got to kind of invade and feature in a little bit. But he. Mean, he really does invade out of nowhere. He's like, Okay, I'm here now. But what about at least favorite song? Do you have one that's a great question off the top of my head. I mean, now either it's funny, because then as a kid, I liked it, but now I'm like peaks and polls could probably go now in my in my opinion polls probably go and then bust a fur, a little buster. Wasn't my favorite for me personally, yeah, walks

[45:39] Mike Abrams: What about favorite and least favorite cat character or character not like cast? Oh no, I wouldn't get you in trouble. I would never

[45:47] Speaker 3: in a million years, but in terms of the actual characters, least see, I mean the obvious answer. I mean, let's just put my cavity aside. Everyone has problems with my cavity. I discovered throughout the show that I monk, as a character, had a lot of problems with Mungo Jerry in particular, because Mungo was a direct he was like that teenager that's just a little shit, you know, and doesn't want to listen to authority. And so there were multiple times throughout the show where monk would tell Mungo to back off or to, you know, get in line and start doing things as they need, as they need to be done. And Mungo would just be like, and then he would kind of go around his back and just keep doing it, because, at least it was Tugger. Tugger, because Tugger is another one who I'd get annoyed with. But Tugger is my brother. You know, he is what he is. Yeah, Mungo is also, which is also funny, because my boyfriend was, he actually replaced Mungo Jerry on the tour. He started as a swing and then took, took over Mungo and and so then there was a long time where every night I was like, You're a fucking asshole, and he's like, had to

[46:58] Speaker 3: What about favorite, favorite cat? I mean, Demeter, obviously. I mean, there's that, there's a very strong relationship. It'd be Demeter, Old Deuteronomy. And I also think that he has this love for both Jenny Andy dot, Jelly Lorem. Jenny is, I think, one of his first because I think the, I think the reason that he sings so much in Gumby cat is because, in monks mind this, either she or skimble shanks are going to be the best option for the heavy side layer. So he's introducing her as See, she's this maternal person. She's She is awesome. She does all this work for us and and so I think that he and those more maternal people so Joe lorim and Jenny, any dots? I think that he really loves as well.

[47:44] Mike Abrams: So that, let's get to the million dollar question. Now, because you've kind of, you kind of teased a couple options here. I've argued for a while. I don't think it should be Grizabella. I do want to ask this question two ways now. So the first one is that the question asks everybody, do you think Grizabella should be the choice for the heavy side layer? If so, I want you to defend her. If not, who else would you who would you pick?

[48:07] Speaker 3: I'm still going to give you the if not, because I do want to talk about who I would pick otherwise. But I do think Grizabella, because here's redemption, because here's the thing. Well, it's not only the redemption story. I mean, yeah, but I think that there's, there's more depth to kind of where she comes from, because she was, at one point, a part of the tribe, and she, I mean, in our, at least in our version, I can't speak for other versions, but it was, she made catastrophic mistakes, you know, she she went out and she went into the world, and she did things that went directly against the tribe's code. You know what those were up to the interpretation, but that was, you know, that's what it is. And now she is coming back, and she is begging, begging for forgiveness and and I and to get a new, a second chance. And I think that every other cat that we've met throughout the show. While they are very deserving, they will continue to be deserving. They will. And I don't think any, I don't think with the exception of Gus, I don't think anyone is on death's door. I think that they have got at least another year in them. Gus, actually, it's interesting. I remember talking to Tim gulan, who played it on the road, and one of his big things with with Gus was Gus has already been to this heavy side layer. He doesn't want to go again. He wants he wants his cycle to be done. He wants to die outside of the ball and let himself go. So other than Gus, I don't think anyone else is dying, you know, immediately, whereas Grizabella, I mean, in memory, she she basically says, If I leave tonight, I am not going to live in I will be dead very shortly, and I will have never gotten that chance for redemption. So that's why I think that Grizabella is the strongest candidate, because she, unlike the other candidates, she will never have another opportunity, and I think that she has earned her redemption by the end of the evening. MM. Okay, yeah,

[50:01] Mike Abrams: I, you know, I've heard enough arguments for her that I, I'm starting to come around my argument. But who is your if you know your if, if not, because you just usually it's Gus, but you, you seem that Gus is not there because

[50:14] Speaker 3: I don't think us, I don't think us, at least in again, in our version, Gus, he doesn't want to, he's done when he doesn't even want to speak. He doesn't want, he doesn't even want to do Gus, the theater cat. The reason that jelly Lorem sings the beginning of Gus is because she's trying to convince him, Hey, come on. Just like, just tell your story. Stop being a grump. Stop sitting in the corner like, like, and then, and then he gets swept up in it. And then that's what leads him to have the memory of when he was in the show, the peaks and the peaks of the polls and got to play the Romans cat all that. But so yeah, I don't think he'd be the choice. I think if it were to be anyone, see, I keep I go back and forth between two people. It would be either Jenny, any dots, or skimble, but I have to pick one. I have to pick one. I'm forcing myself to pick one here. I think, from monk's perspective, it should be Jenny Annie dots, because she does the most for the tribe. She takes care of the other kittens. She keeps people in order. She keeps things running, you know, very efficiently. And I think that she has served the tribe the best. While skimble Shanks is a good candidate, most of what he has done is outside of the tribe. He keeps the trains on time. He does all these other things, but those aren't for us. Like that doesn't benefit us as a tribe. Whereas Jenny, any dots, yeah, directly benefits how things operate in house. It's, it's

[51:31] Mike Abrams: interesting because every Jenny argues that they can't, they're like, I can't go. They need me. There's no way I could go. The tribe needs me, which is kind of an interesting, you know, piece of that. I do want to ask this one different way now, and I'm going to remove Grizabella from it. But if, if we're Buster for Jones, and we're calling the next hit for Old Deuteronomy, who's the most deserving of that hit to go the heavy set layer, like, Who's who would be because now we kind of eliminate age or anything else, just like, who's busting for Jones gonna call the first hit on of the cast for the next serial killer hit? While

[52:08] Speaker 3: I'm thinking about this, I just thought of something else, and that's crazy. So that, does that make Macavity more of like a freedom fighter trying to get people out of the cult? Yeah, McCabe is like the hero. That's crazy. All right. So who's the next hit, though? Because he knows his, he knows his

[52:23] Mike Abrams: brother. It's his brother too, right? Or, I guess there's some relation to, if you assume, or maybe it's Dad, it's his dad, right? Wouldn't you assume your honor? Or, yeah, Deuteronomy would be or Macavity would be straps brother. Deuteronomy, Macavity would be McCabe's dad. Then, yeah, if you're brothers, yeah, most likely. So it's he knows his dad's a serial killer and he's trying to protect everyone else. That's interesting.

[52:49] Speaker 3: But he's but Buster for his next hit would probably be, you know, it's interesting because I think that there's also a love triangle between Buster for Jenny and jelly, which is off, which is why they both kind of sing in that number. So I would say his next hit would probably still be Jenny, because I think that he doesn't want that well, but may not, because now he'd want that. He would want that continued attention. That's the kind of person he is. He likes.

[53:16] Mike Abrams: It's always the boy. It's always the boy he likes, having both of them suspect number one,

[53:21] Speaker 3: you know what? Maybe it would be Tugger. Because Tugger takes a lot of attention from the ladies bust for also gets a lot of attention from the ladies. So then by taking Tugger out, then all of the eyes come back to him.

[53:37] Mike Abrams: That's a that's a good angle. I was trying to think, who is going to eat the most? Oh, there's also that. And take from his, like, who's going to consume the most away from what he's looking for. So Tugger is probably one from the female consumption. And then who I'm trying, I was trying to think the only other kind of, like, large cat would be Old Deuteronomy. But I don't think he's gonna,

[53:59] Speaker 3: I don't think he could convince Old Deuteronomy to kill himself. No, I think it would probably be at that point like because I don't think he, and he wouldn't eliminate any kittens, even though they're probably the most desperate for food. But, but if you look at Jenny with, like, the big coat and all that, I mean, and she's she has a lot of work, so she's also probably consuming the most resources, I think it's Jenny. It's true. I really do think it's Jenny on all fronts, then Jenny

[54:21] Mike Abrams: is Jenny's there for every decision, any way we tackle this, Jenny is the one to be back. Jenny is the one. Yep, I absolutely love it. Final question, most important one, how do we find you on social media? How do we stay in touch? Wait,

[54:36] Speaker 3: yeah, so I am on Instagram at Dan, underscore J hoy. I'm also going to plug, plug, plug, plug. I have a little music series on YouTube called Music Mondays. My boyfriend has a podcast called The whispers from below. So you can find either of us there. We were both part of the cats tour, and we love when people reach out and ask us cats questions. It's actually some of our favorite things. So, yeah. Find me. Find me on Instagram, find me on YouTube and and reach out, reach out.

[55:04] Mike Abrams: And we'll, we'll link everything to in the description so you can make it a little easier to find everything. Dan, thank you so much for for coming on, for enlightening me on now, probably the only way I'm gonna ever think of the show again, which is serial killer version of this. But this was super fun. I appreciate you hopping on. I had a

[55:32] Mike Abrams: thank you everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.