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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:30] Speaker 2: to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown the cat. Sasha fee, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She was on the non equity US tour in 2008 and 2009 and also did another production, she was a vocal swing covering Grizabella, Jenny and jelly. So welcome. Link, Craig and thank you for joining me. Hey, Mike, thanks for having me. I'm always excited to talk to anybody who's done every version of the show, and you will be the first on this non equity tour that I've talked to. So excited to hear a little bit about that world, because it's been on for like, 20 years now, at this point, it seems like, yeah, it's been running quite a while. So before we get into that, I still, I always have to level set with everybody about their history of cats. So before you went on tour, before you did the first production, how much did you know about the show? Did you see the movie? Were you super familiar?

[1:19] Speaker 3: So that's a great question. I actually knew very little about the show, which is rare. I think a lot of dancers it's like their dream show. But it was one of my first jobs out of school, so I had seen it, I think, in Chicago when I was a little kid, maybe like eight or nine, and that's all I knew about

[1:37] Speaker 2: it. Okay, so now I have very big gripes with your family bringing you as an eight or nine year old, I don't think it's an appropriate show for children. What was your reaction as an eight or nine year old, like, Did you were you just mesmerized? Or did you follow along? What was happening?

[1:53] Speaker 3: I don't. So I don't honestly remember what I thought because I was a kid, I just, I mean, it was cats, and I think everyone thought it was, like family friendly. But I can tell you, when I showed up for my first day of rehearsal for tour, and they asked us what we knew about cats and why we were so excited to be there, I got a little bit of attitude, because I thought they were cats from space.

[2:15] Speaker 2: That's fair. I mean, given the way the sets built, it kind of does feel right? Yeah,

[2:20] Speaker 3: I what I remembered was green eyes. I remembered glowy green eyes in the dark. And I remembered, you know, spoiler alert, I remember the tire, which looked like a spaceship flying up into the sky. And so I was really sure, when I showed up to rehearsal that I was a cat in

[2:36] Speaker 2: space. Space cats. It's a different story, is it? Though, loosely, I guess that's true. There's, uh, we couldn't, we could do some problems. It's probably better that you as a eight or nine year old, thought space cats and that, like, what actually is happening?

[2:52] Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, for sure. That's a really good spin. Yeah. So, okay,

[2:56] Speaker 2: so you you saw as an eight or nine year old, you didn't really watch, like, you weren't obsessed with, like, the 1998 movie, you weren't a super fan. And you get this first job out of school, and you go in thinking you're going to see space cats. What are you like? What's your first immediate reaction of, like, Okay, wow. What did I just get myself into?

[3:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a little overwhelming. I mean, anytime you do your first national tour. It's a big deal, of course. So there's a lot of pressure, but also excitement. But cats has such a long history, right? So many people who were on that tour with me had been doing it for many years, of course. You know, the director, choreographer, had been associated with the show for ever, so it was exciting, but also definitely a little scary, a lot of pressure. So

[3:40] Speaker 2: you come in, it's got now, it's been running for years. So you're coming in Midway as a vocal swing. What does that process look like? Like? Where do you How much are you told about your characters and the backstory? Are you just kind of like, here's the dance numbers. Jump in and go,

[3:55] Speaker 3: no, no. So they do a really good job. At least when we did it, we spent a lot of the first days just practicing what they call felonity, which I'm sure you've talked about on your podcast, right? You roll around on stage and act like cat. You do? You do? You run around the rehearsal room and just rub on your castmates and, like, nuzzle them, and learn to be a cat. And talk a lot about who these cats are and what they're trying to accomplish. And it's really interesting, because a lot of audience members have sort of their own ideas about what the show is or who the characters are, but we really had specific knowledge and thoughts about who we were and what we were doing, like, if you ask any cats cast member, I know who I was and I know why I was there. It might not make sense when they're singing and dancing, but we knew it well.

[4:40] Speaker 2: Tell me more. I want to know. Like, what were you told? What was your specific like, that's what I'm trying to solve, because I feel like I get a different answer from everyone I talk to, and every production gets a slightly different version of it, and that's what makes this show so fascinating.

[4:54] Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of it changes with different directors and choreographers. The show, as you said, like, has a really long. History, and everyone sort of has their own lore about who these characters are and how they came to be. And you know, if you worked with Richard Stafford, which I did, or if you work with Jillian Lynn, which a lot of other people did, there were different understandings. But yeah, we spent a lot of time practicing being cats and learning about our relationships to each other. I mean, we knew which cat had slept with, which other cat, which cat hated, which other cat. I mean, it's really, there's a whole story for every single cat in that show. See, that's

[5:29] Speaker 2: what I've been trying to document. So I want to know who slept with, who. I want to know who's whose parents are, who's like, who, what are the ones that you remember? As I say, I

[5:40] Speaker 3: don't know if I remember at all. I distinctly remember Macavity and Demeter had an

[5:45] Speaker 2: abusive, 50 Shades of Gray relationship. Yeah, that's one. That's a good way of putting it. Thank you for helping me. That's my PG version of it. That's the like, the universal truth I've that one is very well documented. Like, that's not changed in any production. Yeah,

[6:00] Speaker 3: yeah. There's a lot of history between those two, but there's also history with Grizz and is it Macavity? I There's a lot. There were a lot, but I think every cast also kind of created their own as you were on stage together, you would develop relationships as your characters and figure it out. Yeah,

[6:19] Speaker 2: was there anyone that you were, I guess that. So that's part I'm fascinated by, and that's generally where we go into later, but we're gonna get into it now. I want to know more of these relationships that you think there. How many do you think that you created that fell out the norm? Or how many were you just this is what I was told. I need to be a little afraid of the cavity, although you didn't point the meter.

[6:39] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, for me as a swing a lot of it was just honoring what I was told or what the person who was playing the role was doing so as not to disrupt the balance of the show. So I did a lot of honoring those relationships, but definitely we had our own individual feelings about each other on stage,

[6:55] Speaker 2: for sure. Okay, so we're going back. This has been 12 ish years, right? So I'm gonna make you dig, dig deep to the space cats here, and remember, we're gonna go through the three. So, Grizabella, what were you told about her? What was her backstory from who she was not just sleeping with, but like, what was the the background there? Oh,

[7:14] Speaker 3: no. Now I feel like I'm taking a test, Grizabella. I just remember she, I mean, she was the glamor cat. She was the hit of her time. She slept with all the male cats. She had some, yeah, a lot of them, and she had a lot of complicated relationships with them. But then what happened? Something happened, and she got, like, exiled. I don't even remember what it was, yeah, and she's just not accepted anymore by this crowd of cats. She's no longer what she was in her heyday, and they want nothing to do with her. Okay,

[7:45] Speaker 2: what about Jenny? She's like, she feels like mom cat, right? That's the way I always thought of her.

[7:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, Jenny's just a happy ball of yarn kind of cat. I don't think she had a bad relationship with anyone. She's, yeah, very much a COVID Jenny sleep with, I don't think. I don't know anybody, nobody. I don't know. Did you have someone in mind?

[8:05] Speaker 2: I always looked at her as mom and old demeanor is dad, and then Old Deuteronomy, or Old Deuteronomy, not Demeter long day. Old Deuteronomy is dad, and Old Deuteronomy is his lyrics are about how he's like, had 99 wives. I just kind of assumed Jenny was one

[8:23] Speaker 3: of them. I mean, I guess in theory, they all could be one of them. I always thought of Jenny as, yeah, very much like a grandmotherly cat, and she had her mice that she hung out within her roaches, and that was her little family.

[8:36] Speaker 3: jelly was obviously very close to Gus, like very much his caretaker, sort of like a, I think, in some productions, like his niece and some kind of like his partner, depending on age and things like that. And I remember she was good friends with Jenny. They were always very tight in every production I did. What about with Chris? No jelly did not love Grizz. I think jelly was disapproving of Grizabella,

[9:06] Speaker 2: yeah. So there's one of the rumors is that they had a falling out, yeah, and that was, what about bustafer? Bustafer? Any connection with bustafer?

[9:16] Speaker 3: No. Bustafer is a standalone as far as I remember. Okay, so

[9:20] Speaker 2: this is where I start tying stuff together. I think Joey and bustafer and Chris were a love triangle. Really? Why? Because they had a falling out, and they were really good friends. And I think busta fur slept with one instead of the friend, see, but if Buster slept with anyone, I would have thought it was Jenny. Ooh, that could have been case. She sings a whole song about him and how great he is. So maybe, so, yeah, I mean, maybe this is Denny and busta first see this. Is this? This right here goes back to you said, Hey, there's very clear backstories. Who slept with who, and now we're coming back and being like, well, it could have been there. It could have been that. This is why there's no backstory. There is no. Like I want. I need to go back to 2008 where you were told all this and someone needs to record it.

[10:04] Speaker 3: Well, I think what's important is that there's no canonical backstory, right? You can create it. That's actually what's fun about cats, is you can create different stories with them, as long as they make sense. You have some flexibility. So no cast is going to be 100% the same ever. I know

[10:20] Speaker 2: that's what makes this fun, though. That's why I have 60 plus episodes arguing with people about who should be sleeping with who and who should be, you know, rewarded with death, I guess.

[10:29] Speaker 3: I mean, I just think it's funny that they had a sex life at all doing that show. That's,

[10:34] Speaker 2: I mean, granted, you did come in thinking you're seeing space cats as a nine year old, and then you learn that the ball is an orgy, and I'm sure that was very eye opening. Yeah, yes. Were you told? When are you told that part of that is that after you spend like two days basically nuzzling up to your cast mates,

[10:53] Speaker 3: yeah? I mean, it's just part of the choreography of the ball. When you learn it, that's the thing that is happening, and you have to honor that. That's what's happening. But yeah, it's all of a sudden they're all just having

[11:04] Speaker 2: sex. What a show for an eight year old. So tell me about when did you do the North Shore music theater? Was that before or after the tour?

[11:13] Speaker 3: So North Shore was a few years after, I want to say 2013

[11:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. 2013 same director, same director. What is that production like?

[11:24] Speaker 3: It was totally different because so North Shore music theater is in the round. So the whole show is done in the round. Yeah, interesting, which changes a lot of things. And they put in, there are a couple of versions of cats, and they put in peaks and pollicules into the North Shore version, which many of us had never done,

[11:47] Speaker 2: which also wasn't, I don't think was done in 2016 in the revival.

[11:52] Speaker 3: No, it's almost never done, as far as I got cut long ago, and it's, it's gone, but they put it in.

[11:58] Speaker 2: I have so many questions about being it's essentially a round theater, yeah. How does that like work? Like, there's so many like, how does the tire work? Like, tell me more about that experience.

[12:11] Speaker 3: It was interesting. So, well, I've worked at North Shore a few times, so I was actually really comfortable with the stage, which is lucky they have a lift that they use. But honestly, the hardest part is entrances and exits. If you think about coming on stage as a cat, sort of on all fours most of the time when your exit and entrances through the audience, yeah, no 200 feet. It's, it's quite a journey to get to the stage every time.

[12:37] Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, that's, that's a very different experience. I now I'm trying to comprehend it. I was really thrown off by the most recent tour. It has what I call the bounce Castle stage, where it was like, essentially an inflatable stage, which I thought would be very difficult, but now I think that a round theater might be even

[12:58] Speaker 3: harder. Yeah, well, because the choreography too. You can't do anything flat. Everyone has to turn as they do. The ball, for example, you can't just go straight one direction. You have to arc all the way around. Everything's

[13:10] Speaker 2: always turning. Wow. So how does like trying to think like a Mungo Jerry and rumble teaser? I guess that one's probably a little easier in the circle versus some of the other ones. Yeah,

[13:21] Speaker 3: that one was easier, I think, because it's just the two of them. Everyone else could kind of crouch around the edges and you could see them. But when we did like Jenny, any dot song, she had to tap down through the middle, and everyone would sort of tap around her. It's definitely a it's definitely a brain puzzle when you're doing what

[13:41] Speaker 2: about? So how does, how does Grizabella go up in there? So it's a lifted stage where, like, does the stages go up, or do they still fly her

[13:49] Speaker 3: out? I don't even remember. I feel like they built her a lift. I feel like she had something. But I honest, I honestly don't remember.

[14:00] Speaker 3: go for? Oh, they're quick. There may be, like, six weeks or something. Okay, so

[14:05] Speaker 2: six weeks and you're on tour for a year or two before that. Okay, so you've got, you know, a year ish, a year and a half of cats in your your history. Um, their thing I read about the tour, the non equity tour, is that it was considered a extremely grueling tour, because it's like one or two days in and out at all times. Like, was that your experience? Tell me a little bit about like, being on tour. Yeah, that type of environment.

[14:32] Speaker 3: Yes, the schedule was challenging, and they've been running for a few years. And the longer tours run, sort of the shorter the stays get as they bounce around from city to city. So when I came on, it was a lot of one nighters and split weeks, which means you're riding a bus for eight hours a day and like cramped in your tiny little seat. And then you get off and you go eat dinner, and you stretch and warm up your body and you do cats. House for two and a half hours, and then you go to the next place, no, then you go to the hotel and sleep, but then you're up early the next morning, back on the bus, if it's just a one night. Yeah. Wow.

[15:10] Speaker 2: What was the like? Where, what towns like, appreciated cats more, and who? Like, really, you had some some fans.

[15:22] Speaker 3: I Oh, man, everywhere was really wonderful. Honestly, the cats fans are the best fans I've ever met. Frankly, they're just the most excited. I distinctly remember in, I think it's Tempe, Arizona, there's a big theater there, and I remember a lot of fans coming fully dressed as cats, and just the stage door being so exciting. They were, they were really great there. But there were a lot of places, I think, up in Calgary in Canada, we stayed places. We stayed longer places. We stayed for like a week. The fans really came out and were awesome.

[15:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, I was actually curious about that, as I saw, as I was reading about the tour, about one nights, or just a couple nights versus a two week or, you know, a week plus. Do you get more craziness on a one night? Because it's like, this is my one shot. All the super fans are coming. Or do the super fans and craziness spread out when you're there for a week?

[16:18] Speaker 3: I mean, I want to say we were sold out almost the whole time. So kind of, wherever you go, people are really happy that you're there. Yeah, the fans are great, everywhere. So exciting. Yeah,

[16:29] Speaker 2: I find it. I just love it. I know it's coming to on tour. You know, it's a touring again now, and it was supposed to come to where I'm from. And there's some people that have just season tickets to that. And I'm like, I want to know who's going to be, like, pleasantly surprised, and who's going to be like, I came for space cats, and now I'm here, and what happened, you know, like, like, had no idea, because I've definitely been at some of the stuff, I won't say, which shows they were, where a handful of people walked out because it was the season ticket and was not what they were expecting.

[17:02] Speaker 3: Oh, I feel like with cats, you know what you're getting, you you know you're coming to have a good time. Yeah, don't you? I didn't,

[17:11] Speaker 2: what did you think? I had no idea what I was going to see. I knew it's been on when I went and I went to the last preview of the 2016 revival on Broadway. I just moved to New York. I went expecting to see singing and dancing and a show that's been around forever. Like, at that point, I think it was the most revenue generating show of all time, or, like it was, it's been around that long. So I'm like, Okay, this has to be interesting. And it's cats, and then I knew it was the butt end of a lot of jokes, like a modern family episode and a Family Guy episode, like, I just had seen it there, and I knew the song memory, and that was it.

[17:48] Speaker 3: That's interesting to me, though, else because that revival, that's the blanking Bucha revival, right? It was to me that was a completely different show, really, completely different show from what I had experienced having done the show before, in what way I mean? Well, the choreography, obviously was so completely different. And so much of that show is the choreography, right? So just the energy of the show was completely different, the way that they presented some of the characters, I remember, Mr. Mistoffelees, was really, really differently interpreted. To me, they're like two separate shows, almost. They're they're not the same.

[18:27] Speaker 2: So it's interesting you say that because, as someone who couldn't tell you the first thing about dance or in the choreography, I've now watched 1998 movie a couple times, and I've watched the show, and to me there seems similar, like, really, but, but it's because I'm, I'm taking an angle of storytelling, of like plot. And there's still no plot from either, you know, 1998 or 2016

[18:57] Speaker 2: Okay? There's the same amount of loose plot from 1998 as there's 2016 it was the 2019 movie where I'm like, Okay, you made some like, changes. Like, I did not see that movie. You didn't miss much, but the story's been told from a different angle. It's, there's like, totally different character interpretations. It's the British version of MongoDB teaser, which sounds nothing like the other one. Oh, yeah. So like, there were, there were changes, whereas to me, 1998 and 2016 felt similar as the outsider looking in. I'm sure if I was a dancer, I'd be like, that's different choreography. That's different things, but I would never notice that. You could actually probably put them side by side, and I probably would not notice that still,

[19:37] Speaker 3: for sure, also, to be fair, I am not a dancer, and I did cats, okay,

[19:42] Speaker 2: but so do you was there vocal changes, like was, I mean, the songs are pretty much the same, right?

[19:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, there were some time signature changes. I feel like Mongo and rump was maybe different, but just the vibe, just the vibe was different. Okay,

[19:56] Speaker 2: that was my first experience. So, you know, it's not the it's. Chicago, whatever year version that I saw, that you saw first I and I came in with 2016 to begin.

[20:10] Speaker 2: I'm fascinated. Who? I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the back stories that you were told, because you did come in, you know, you're kind of saying you're given a big history of this, and you're now saying, hey, there's a lot more plot. What is that plot like? How is it explained to you before you go on stage the first time? So as I

[20:31] Speaker 3: remember it, the plot was very much that these cats come meet once a year in the junkyard and monkey straps, the head guy. And he sort of helps present the options to Old Deuteronomy, who they, I think they collectively decide. But really he's like the deciding vote on who gets to go be reborn and and come back and live again. Okay,

[20:59] Speaker 2: so that's the broad story, and then each person comes in and makes the case. Basically, there's an intermission for an orgy, yeah, of course. And then comes back this person who was banned from competition, and they win. Yeah? You see that. You see the flaws with that story?

[21:25] Speaker 2: Okay, okay, um, because I think

[21:28] Speaker 3: so some of it, I think you have to think of it as like meeting a family of I mean, they're cats, I was gonna say people, but they're cats. It's like meeting a family. They're a tribe. Obviously, that's how we think of them. And of course, there are people who are sometimes on the outs. There are cliques that form, and there are relationships that happen, but at the end of the day, there's still a family, and you make the best decision that you can, and she was chosen at the end, and I think everyone was really happy for her at the end. Are,

[21:59] Speaker 2: but are you're describing reality TV, not a sitcom, like, like we're meeting a, you know, it's a, an E, E Network family that we're getting. And I won't call out any of them in particular, but we're gonna watch the family and, you know, at the end we're gonna, we're gonna choose one versus a curated story. Of, here's how this goes?

[22:21] Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, it's not. It's definitely not a linear tale, that's for sure. But you get to meet different characters, and some are sort of competing to win, and some are sort of just disrupting the process. I think of it more as just like it is more like a reality TV show. It's more like peering into the window of what these cats are doing when nobody's looking.

[22:45] Speaker 2: See I that I buy and then I get into the argument of a reality TV is not supposed to have plot. Whether we agree with, you know, depends on how much conspiracy you think in reality TV is curated, but reality TV is supposed to be authentic and organic, and there's no plot, and you get a peer in. So that's where I like, I kind of got that same vibe the first time I saw it, and then that's why I'm like, this isn't, there's no, there shouldn't be a plot here, because I'm, I'm watching reality cats, yeah. And that's then I have very different choices of, okay, we got other challenges with that, but there's, it's hard to explain a plot because it doesn't feel like there is one.

[23:23] Speaker 3: Well, like I said, I think for the audience, there isn't so much, but for the people in the show, there is. And I guess I think it's like, what do you think a plot is? Right? The show has characters, and they have relationships, and things happen to them, and they react to them, and something happens. But no, there's not, there's not a traditional plot. There's not a beginning, a middle and an end necessarily, right? The end is a starting over.

[23:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not a traditional conflict resolution type of thing, right, right? Okay, let's pivot into some rapid fire questions about this. If you could play any cat, forget vocal range, dance ability, just like male, female, just anyone which track would you want to do? Gus. Gus. Tell me why he

[24:08] Speaker 3: is so beautiful. His story is so touching to me. And I think also I was jelly for so long. Obviously, I have a lot of connection to that character. Like you just develop an affinity for the person you're with all the time, but I think his story is so beautiful. And of course, he's an actor, so that's sounds really lame, but of course, you sort of empathize with his situation. And also, of course, the range, he gets to be Gus, who he is now, and also he gets to sort of flashback and be who he was back in the day at his prime, which was growl Tiger. So he gets to be these two really great things, and that's really fun as an actor, of course, to sort of get to stretch a little bit. So I would definitely want to Gus grow Tiger. That's

[24:51] Speaker 2: awesome. That's awesome. What is your favorite song from the show

[25:04] Speaker 3: I guess so I love, I think MongoDB and rumple teaser I love to watch. Could watch that non stop? They're just so kinetic. Yeah,

[25:14] Speaker 2: who are your favorite and least favorite cats? Definitely have to answer. I know there's, there's got to be one you dislike.

[25:24] Speaker 3: I Oh, man, how can I answer this correctly,

[25:29] Speaker 2: but not, not like castmates or people that you did it with, just like the actual character? Yeah,

[25:36] Speaker 3: I just feel, I feel really, I don't want to throw any cats under the bus. I love them all. Well, I love Jenny. Love her. She's just the best, just the happiest, hardest person. I didn't love counsel all the time. Okay?

[25:58] Speaker 2: I was gonna say it's gotta be one of the younger males, like, because you played jelly and Jenny and Grizz. Like, there's going to be one of those, like, Alonzo pounce of all like that. One of those would be the ones that would bother you,

[26:11] Speaker 3: yeah, and not for personal reasons. They're just always up in your face and tugging on your tail and bouncing around. And I just want to be sitting down.

[26:18] Speaker 2: It's okay, you can it's a tribe you're going to have. You know that one person in the show that you don't like, like, that's okay? Not not human? Cat,

[26:26] Speaker 3: sure, yeah, yeah, of course. No, I loved all the humans, yeah, of course.

[26:30] Speaker 2: Um, okay. You were on a very grueling tour, which cat personality wise would actually be best at thriving on the eight hours a day, eat dinner, warm up, go perform like which, which character would be best in that world?

[26:49] Speaker 3: Oh, man, it would probably be the young it would be the young males.

[26:53] Speaker 2: They would just, yeah, naturally be ready to go do it, yeah?

[26:57] Speaker 3: Because they can be scrunched up on a bus all day and then just pop out adrenaline through

[27:02] Speaker 2: it, Yeah, which one would be best in the round theater? Like, which one would be would make the most of that stage. I

[27:11] Speaker 2: Why? So I would have thought something else. I would have thought,

[27:17] Speaker 2: Like, all eyes from all angles watching him, yeah, but

[27:21] Speaker 3: I also think that about Grizz, that she can just be and be seen. That's

[27:27] Speaker 2: okay, that's fair. I hadn't thought about that way. Okay, million dollar question. And I'm hoping, based on what you just said earlier, that you might be on my my side here. I've already, already at length, that I don't think grizabell is the right joyful choice. So I want to hear, do you, are you Team Grizz? Or, if not, who are you casting to the heavy side layer instead of her?

[27:50] Speaker 3: Okay, so when I'm playing Grizz, I'm Team Grizz, but if, wow.

[27:55] Speaker 2: Okay, so while you're, while you're on stage as Grizabella, I can understand I choose defending that choice, but if, as a person watching the show, not in the show today, who are you like rooting for? Who are you cheering for? And why I choose Gus every time, Gus, every time, okay, every time. And what's your rationale for Gus, like, what makes your team, guess? I mean, similar

[28:21] Speaker 3: to what I said earlier about why I love him so much, I just think he, he has lived such a beautiful, interesting life, and he isn't done yet, right? He, He lets us know, he communicates very clearly that he has more he wants to do and share and be, and he's, as far as we can tell, very lovely. So I think he deserves that opportunity probably more than anybody else, and he's obviously on his last legs, so this might be his last chance.

[28:52] Speaker 3: Because someone had to sing memory, and it's a female song.

[28:57] Speaker 2: So yeah, someone sings memory, and then that's the way the show ends so they have to kill her. That's

[29:02] Speaker 3: no I mean, I think Grizz is also deserving in a different way, right? Her struggle is just a different struggle from his.

[29:10] Speaker 2: I so both are redemption stories, and the part I struggle with in in for Gus or not for us, but for Grizabella is, if you're choosing redemption stories, why are you not choosing the person who's been loyal to your tribe the whole time? Why are we choosing this outsider who left, was banished for some reason or another, and then comes back and just because you know, you built out a powerful, amazing song,

[29:40] Speaker 3: you get to go. Are you saying, If I built a powerful, amazing song, I can't have everything I want, because that's maybe the world we want to live in.

[29:53] Speaker 2: I I mean, I was very much a fan of seeing everyone I've seen do grizzabella belt. It out. It's an impressive feat, but I watched two hours and 45 minutes of show, and I do actually just learn that Chris is only on stage for 15 minutes, yeah, which is crazy in itself. And so like when I do as someone who is looking for the storyline and the sitcom version of this, and not the reality TV version. I kept going. That was great. That was one performance I watched. Other ones I really enjoyed, too. Why am I picking her?

[30:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. And interestingly, for me, I think the win for Grizz isn't that she gets chosen, it's that the other cats accept her and touch her after so many years of no contact totally.

[30:43] Speaker 2: So she should spend next year with the tribe and belt out memory 2.0 okay? And go the next year.

[30:51] Speaker 3: So your argument is, it can be Grizz in the sequel? Yeah,

[30:56] Speaker 2: and cats too. Great. I've written a lot of version of cats too, though, so we got to be very careful, of course. Yeah, we've got some ways cats too. Can can go down, but I think it depends on how you It depends on how you really interpret. Like, what is old dudes? What is he actually going because monks kind of in charge. But does he ever die? Is he ever going to be a choice

[31:19] Speaker 3: Deuteronomy? Yeah, I don't know. He does feel very ethereal. He feels timeless, doesn't he?

[31:27] Speaker 2: He does, but that's a that's, I mean, that's another version of cats too. I have old dude goes, well, yeah, what happens old dude? Like, what's his story? Yeah,

[31:36] Speaker 3: I don't know, but he's so great to look at,

[31:42] Speaker 2: which is how we should be choosing Yes, and who looks great is how we're going to choose. That's the society we need to live in, right? Yeah.

[31:48] Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I don't ever think there's a right or wrong answer. Obviously you have a you're posturing that there is a right and wrong answer because you think she was wrong. But I think a redemption story of any kind is beautiful and powerful, and everyone relates to that, I

[32:01] Speaker 2: agree. I don't. I don't think there's a right answer to this, but I think there's a wrong answer.

[32:09] Speaker 3: Okay, so what if I argued? You know, Gus is deserving, but he's gotten to be part of the tribe and enjoy his life and his time with them, and because Grizabella was banished and hasn't maybe she is more deserving of another chance and more time with her family.

[32:26] Speaker 2: Is that? What happens when she gets murdered by Old Deuteronomy? She doesn't get murdered. What did she just say? That's that's what happens. She gets reborn. She gets so reborn flies

[32:36] Speaker 3: in a spaceship, yeah, to her home planet.

[32:45] Speaker 3: old version. That's not what it is. Yeah, don't no one, believe me, it's not what it is. No, he doesn't murder her. She just, she flies and gets reborn, and

[32:53] Speaker 2: that doesn't involve dying. Why do you want to think about that? Why would you? Well, because cats have nine lives, right? So it's like one has to end for the next one to start Sure, yeah, there is a version of this that someone brought up on this podcast, that there's a Old Deuteronomy, is just a serial killer version of this.

[33:17] Speaker 2: Oh, there's a, there's been a few people from the it's the 2000 the most recent tour. There's a couple that brought that up. It's like, not their actual thought. It's just kind of like a funny Halloween version, way of interpreting the show. Sure,

[33:31] Speaker 3: everyone comes around to be murdered. Yeah. All right, interesting.

[33:36] Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just a the ball. Is just a setup for it. Okay? I I'm glad you're team Gus, we could keep talking in circles about all the different ways that the show could go, cats too could go. And I would love to do that, but, but I think everyone who listens to this podcast has heard me give like, 25 versions of cats too. So I want to ask, How can we stay in touch and find you on social media and kind of keep up with what you're

[34:05] Speaker 3: doing? Oh, I'm on all the things the Instagrams at Lynn J Craig and I have a website. Lynn J craig.com you can hang out there with me.

[34:14] Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on and humoring me with the crazy questions and tell me about space cats and the circle theater. I would have never thought for that. So this has been super fun to hear some different perspectives on the show. Oh, thanks so much. Thank you for listening to this episode. The wrong cat died. The podcast break down the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to the podcast, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check out our website, the wrong cat died.