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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome to

[0:29] Speaker 2: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cast, atrophy. I'm your host, Mike agrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was a swing in the 2020 Asian tour of cats that was in South Korea. He was covering Tugger monkeys, trap, bus, dust, Old Deuteronomy and crowd Tiger. So welcome. Bedrid Halley, thank you for joining

[0:49] Speaker 2: am excited to talk to you, because you got to do the pandemic conversion of cats, which I think is fascinating. And there's gonna be a lot of questions on that

[0:57] Speaker 3: I did. It's, I was wondering about that, because it's, I suppose, kind of an individual interesting experience as a production of Cats, you know? Yeah, setting, it's been around

[1:08] Speaker 2: 40 years, and you got to do you were the only one at the time kind of going around, and although the only things theater going around. But we'll get into your production. I always love to hear before that, though, what is your history with the show? How much did you know before you got casted into this crazy play so

[1:28] Speaker 3: crazy play cuts. I definitely grew up predominantly listening to the Australian cast recording on cassettes, like audio cassettes, and I used to listen to this on road trips in the car with my family, for whatever reason. I don't know why. That was just thing that we did and and so I really grew up knowing the whole show just from a music perspective. I hadn't really seen it. I don't think I saw it till I was a little bit older, and that was obviously, like the 90s video recording that everyone grew up with as well. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then, I don't think I actually ever saw a production until the sort of 2016 rehashed version with the street Tugger and all that sort of thing. And I was like, Oh, wow, I saw street Tugger, yeah. And that's kind of my background with it. I really, like lacked it as a kid, because I, you know, I really liked musicals and got into that sort of narrative, music, kind of storytelling that it does, but I never thought I would be in that's no it was never a show that was on my radar. Yeah, yeah. No one ever thinks they're gonna be in. Cats.

[2:40] Speaker 2: How old were you when you had the cassette? Like, is this young? Young, or is this, like, teenage? This is, this is like,

[2:48] Speaker 3: no, no, Young. This is like we're talking about, you know, what we'd call primary school in Australia. So elementary school for you, yes, okay, yeah. So, you know we're talking like, Yeah, well, so we're talking six or seven years old, I guess, like young

[3:01] Speaker 2: so you at that point, so you're only listening to the that's probably better than seeing it, because you're missing some of the very clear undertones that are in the dancing,

[3:12] Speaker 3: absolutely just music, and you had just the Australian

[3:17] Speaker 2: version. So like you're talking like Walkman style.

[3:21] Speaker 3: Because, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like proper, you know, little, I don't know how many inches that is, but not very big. And, you know, play one side and then it plays back the other side. Yeah, it's great. I do somewhere, but I think it's at my parents house, yeah, okay,

[3:38] Speaker 2: we found a few of them growing up too like randomly, but I never had cats. I didn't I didn't have the musical version, let alone the Australian cast. So okay, so you didn't see it until then the movie comes out in 1998 that was when the like recorded production of it came out. And then you said the first time you saw it like live, was the London revival that had the street Tucker correct. So, as someone who listened to the cast recording over and over and over again, how angry were you at street Tugger?

[4:14] Speaker 3: Look, I very good friends with the guy who played street Tucker in our production here in Australia, and I adore him, but I was, I was quite offended by what had happened to the show and the music, especially, you know, when you really grow up with a particular version, and that's what you listen to on repeat, suddenly that not being the show was quite like what is happening. This is not how it's supposed to be and I, you know, I'm all respect to the man, but I not very fond of void Weber's rapping music. I don't think it was particularly street Eve of street Tugger. So, no, no, not a big fan. I accepted it, and I was very pleased to find out when I was doing it, that we were not doing that. Version of the

[5:00] Speaker 2: show, yeah, that version didn't last very long. I think it only went in London. And then I think you're a little bit the international tour, which was in Australia, and that was it. And then 2016 they brought it back to to the more traditional tug, yes, I kind of, I love, okay, I love that. That's what you saw. I did. Did you see the 2019 movie?

[5:25] Speaker 2: So that's the way I felt with Mungo general police, because that was one song that I really remembered during the first viewing of the show, and the song that like, stuck in my head for weeks, and then I saw that movie, and again, at that point, I had I knew the show, but I wasn't probably the expert I am today. And when I went and saw that 2019 movie, and I was the same way, I was like, Wait, what happened to the song that I remember earlier, Joe, this is a very different version.

[5:54] Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's the isn't that the original

[5:57] Speaker 2: version as well? Yeah. But yeah, I'm, I'm sitting here looking at the one I was introduced to is the Broadway revival, and I love that song. It was the one song I sang the whole whole walk home I took from the theater, and it was very different. Now, granted, yeah, I'm probably, you know, there's going to be some people that are gonna be mad because they like the original better, but I'm pretty sure none of us, nobody liked the street Tugger, from what I've heard,

[6:25] Speaker 3: yeah, don't I don't think, well, it's just, it's just not Lloyd Webber's style of writing that he, you know, has a lot of strength and experience in, and I think it was I understand why he tries to adapt his shows into a more contemporary setting and make them more current, but I don't think he had the musical chops for that particular genre.

[6:48] Speaker 2: I I love that we're that you're criticizing Andrew lover, because I've been this whole podcast is on the premise that he made the wrong writing decision as well. So I I'm all for this, and my hope is one day to confront him about it in person. But I probably won't talk about street pepper. I will talk about his ending. Okay, so I love it. So you never thought you're gonna be in it. You knew it. You've seen the seen it live, probably on VHS, I would assume at that point, have heard of tape like we're modernizing you. Hopefully you're gonna stream it someday. But you get to 20, I'm assuming it's around 2020 or maybe even 2019 and you get cast as a swing. So tell me about what that was, that process was like, like, was that pre pandemic? Was that? Yeah, so this,

[7:39] Speaker 3: it was a really, really interesting experience, because this was right in the very, very early stages of 2020. I was, I was touring here in Australia on our national tour of Shrek, which was very exciting. And we'd been open for a couple of months, and that was going really well. And then we'd sort of been hearing murmurings over in, you know, China, of like, oh, there's, you know, there's this COVID pandemic thing starting to happen. And, but we're very, you know, separate from everything in Australia, we're very isolated and, and so it wasn't really on anyone's radar. And then a couple of weeks into, I think it was March, it started like, you know, we started having serious cases starting to happen in Australia. And everyone's sort of going, Oh, this is, I don't know what's be happening, but we're still going on with our lives, and there are still auditions happening. And an audition came up very much out of the blue for cats, and it was for the South Korean tour, which had, I had been aware of the South Korean tour of cats, because it has run many times, because very, very successful in Korea, yeah. And so I've had lots of friends who have done this tour, and I'm like, Okay, I'm sort of aware of it. I mean, I'll just, you know, why not? I'll do the audition. But I'm not really thinking anything of it. I think also, there was a bit of date overlap, like they were supposed to start a little bit before I was finishing on trek. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't something I was really invested in, yeah. I was like, I'll go in and do it whatever. You probably perform your best too, right? Yeah, exactly when you when you're not investing in it, just like, I'm just here. I'm doing my thing. And I remember preparing for this audition and being like, I don't even know what to sing for cats. Like, what? What do you take into a room for? Because it's such a specific pastiche kind of show musically. And it's not like you can just take another Lloyd Webber song, because they're not really in the same world. But, you know, what do you do? And I was sort of doing that thing. I'm like, Okay, well, what, what character would I play like? I don't know, or, you know, who to bring in. And I sort of thought, well, I guess there's, there's Gus. And I'm, I'm a fairly, you know, good character actor, a bit of a chameleon in that sense. And can do, you know, everything. But so I was like, All right, well, I'll bring in some variety for them. I don't know what I'll bring in. So I took in a Gilbert and Sullivan patter song and and I took in, who is it? Hammerstein's at. Adaptation of Carmen.

[10:03] Speaker 2: I'm the wrong audience for this. So

[10:06] Speaker 3: basically I took in some, you know, romantic opera, some operetta patter, and then, like, a 1930s music theater ballad. So it was really out there stuff. And I walked into the room and I sort of said to them, I'm like, Well, I've got some options. What do you guys feel like hearing I've got this, this or this. And they were sort of like, Oh, that's not what we're expecting. But sure, let's have this. And by the end of it, we'd gone through each song, and they're obviously really enjoying it. I'm like, wow. Well, this is going well, that's great. And this was, this was in what ended up being our last week of shows performing for Shrek, before we all got shut down. So I was sort of there in the morning, doing the audition, then going off to do cover calls and and then performances at Shrek, and then I had a call back the next morning and did all the sort of callback stuff. I got called back in for monk, which, again, was not really on my radar. I was like, Okay, I kind of know this character, but not super, super well. I know that he sings a lot of the stuff that starts, so I'll do that. And I went back in and did all the monk material and and the wonderful Kristen Blodgett, who, you know, is very revered on this production, and has worked on cats many, many times, and is just an incredible human being. She, she sort of had this glint in her eye right before I finished. And she was like, could you just just sing this for me? And she pulls out the Duke solo at the end of a dressing of cats. And it was sort of like, oh, this is a real curve ball. I don't know what we're doing here, but sure. And yeah. And so I sang some dude, and she was, she was quite pleased. And yeah. And then, you know, that was sort of it. I went back to Shrek that weekend. The whole country shut down. Like all of the shows all closed, and cats didn't get to finish running their auditions. They were supposed to go from Melbourne to Sydney, but they, you know, everyone ended up going back to their respective countries and just getting the hell out as COVID really set in and and that was it. And I was like, Well, I guess that production is never going to happen. And, you know, that's fine, because we were all in lockdown and and I'm finally having a break for the first time in my life, which was actually quite nice. And then a month into the sort of, you know, real lockdown period, at the start of COVID, I got this email from cats being like, Hey, we're still going ahead in South Korea. Would you, you know, are you interested in coming and doing the show? And I was like, what, like, What do you mean? You're going ahead with a production in another country, you know? And, yeah. And so, of course, like, you know, we had nothing going on, and everything was locked down. And I was like, of course, I'm interested. And and then I spoke to some friends who've done the show previously, and they said, Well, you know, if they're looking at you for a swing, just check if they want you to sing Tugger as well, because the person who normally does that track also covers Tugger. And I hadn't done any Tugger material. Tugger is like, the furthest thing from me possible. I'm very like, now, knowing the show really well, I'm very much a monkey strap. I'm, you know, very much like, I like things to be in order. I'm, you know, a lot, not socially awkward, but you know, I'm not, like, super outlandish, gonna go crazy party or anything like that. And so I was a little bit like, you know, intimidated by this whole target thing. And I thought, all right, well, I better ask if they want me to do it. And I said, oh yeah. So they so they sent me through the Tugger material, and then I'm, you know, sitting at home in my apartment trying to pull out this tug of stuff that I've never really sung because it's not my vocal style. I don't really do like that rock and Rolly kind of riffy stuff. And yeah, and sent it all back. And then next thing, they were like, well, get your passport organized, because we're going to Korea. And, yeah, the rest is history.

[13:46] Speaker 2: I can imagine you in your Australian apartment, just like hip thrusting your way around, trying to figure out your version of Tiger, yeah,

[13:56] Speaker 3: with a lot of directing from my housemate. Yeah, it's really hoping, through all of this process, moving like, I can't do this

[14:04] Speaker 2: role, that is pretty amazing. So you, I mean, so you go, I'm assuming you had to quarantine and kind of do all of that. You get there, and I think you went to, you went on a bunch of different cities. You didn't go to Taiwan. I think that part of the tour got canceled, correct? But walk me through, like, what it was, like, those first couple performances, when everything else was kind of closed, and all of a sudden you're still alive. And, I mean, I saw that you had master and green eyes and like, you you had, like, it's a it was, had to be a very different experience. Yeah,

[14:37] Speaker 3: it was. It was really special. It was really, really lucky. I remember that, you know, after all of the quarantine and all the travel, which was a very stressful experience, obviously, and especially being like I had never been to Asia before, so it was a really, really new experience for me, and, you know, really exciting. But being in quarantine in a foreign country where all you know is. You can see outside your hotel window for two weeks, and it feels like you're in hell a little bit. And yeah, and when we got to that first day of rehearsal, and remembering how special it was, and everyone really appreciating that we were here in a rehearsal room and we were about to do a show, and that that just felt normal, but at the same time, it was so momentous and special, knowing that no one else in the world was doing that. It, yeah, and it really, I think that appreciation for the opportunity really colored the whole tour for the entire cast. I think, you know, normally in a cast, you'd have a lot of, you know, friction and things like that, different personalities. And, you know, definitely a music theater where big personalities, and there's a lot of, you know, narcissism and all that sort of thing. And we really didn't have a lot of that on our production, I think because everyone was just so grateful to be there. Yeah, that's amazing. And so when we were there, we, you know, we were in Seoul, and case numbers had been very, very low in South Korea, like we're talking nationally, they were looking at about 20 to 30 cases a day nationally. Wow. So it was really, really being very well managed over there, and during during that time period leading up to opening. So we're talking probably, you know, July through to early September. We'd sort of seen the case numbers starting to creep up again and and it sort of got to this point where they were then, when we were rehearsing in a government facility. And they had to, because it was a government facility, it was sort of bound by more legal practices, and when the case numbers got to a certain height, we were no longer able to use that facility, because they had to shut it down. So in the middle of rehearsals, we moved rehearsal venues overnight to this little basement that was very decrepit and small, but, you know, was our new home. And you know, it was sort of getting to this point in the lead up, we were all a little bit concerned. Actually, we didn't know if we didn't know if we were going to open, because the case numbers kept on creeping up. And yeah, but we, we eventually did get to opening, and we opened, I think, to 70% capacity, and all with masks. And yeah. And it was, it was incredible and really exciting. Also, I'd never been a swing before, as well. So it was sort of a new experience that's a lot of a whole lot of things happening, and multiple tracks,

[17:32] Speaker 2: unknown pandemic at that point, very known.

[17:37] Speaker 3: And in the in the second week of shows. I think we were about six weeks, six shows in in the second week, and and I was thrown on as Tugger for a whole week of shows. So it was a big couple of weeks that it was sort of, this was the role that I was terrified about, you know, because I'm like, this is, this is the sexual party cat. And I'm a little bit, you know, like, I'm just gonna stand back and watch as a person. And so that was, it was a real roller coaster. And this sort of leading up to the opening of the show, are we gonna open up? We're gonna open and then, you know, getting there, and then, like, settling for like a day or two, and then suddenly, like, the adrenaline going through the roof as I'm being thrown on for the first time, and that I remember that as being the single scariest thing I've ever done in my life.

[18:24] Speaker 2: So your time on was Tugger, yeah, my first

[18:29] Speaker 3: time on was Tugger, which was the role that I was mostly Yeah, one that I was like, I don't know if I can do this role. And yeah, and it was, it was terrifying. Just like I remember standing side stage. I'm not gonna sweat, but I remember standing side Stage in, you know, green eyes, thinking, oh my god, what the am I about to do? This is insane. But, I mean, it all went really well and really smoothly, and, and the audiences were, you know, wonderfully supportive. And, yeah, it was, it was a real wonderful roller coaster. That opening period. It was, it was crazy. But, you know, we got there and we were very grateful. And I think the audiences were also, you know, thrilled to have the show. Like it was just, it was really special. And, yeah,

[19:18] Speaker 2: sense of normalcy, which is a weird thing to say about cats, but like had to be a sense of normalcy, of my going to theater and being outside public. So

[19:29] Speaker 3: in a weird way, it didn't, yeah, well, I was just gonna say, in a weird way, it did feel normal, which was, I think the most special thing of all, like, it was just like this, yeah, it was special. But at the same time, this is just, oh, yeah, this is life as I know it. And being able to experience that in 2020 was kind of insane, yeah,

[19:50] Speaker 2: which most people did not experience normal life in 2020 so I'm assuming you did some form of the felony school, or some form of. The getting to be cats. And did you do that call felony school? Did you do, like, we crawl on each other? And like,

[20:10] Speaker 3: validity school, we had a very fast version of it because,

[20:15] Speaker 2: like, how I was curious about in the middle of that port, like part of time, like everything felt weird, like we were, you know, I was in the middle of the suburbs of the United States and the Midwest, and even I'm like, at the grocery store, was like, I don't want to be too close to this person. Like, I'm like, Oh, someone's on that aisle. I'm going to go down a different aisle. Like it was that point early on in the pandemic, and that's when you're being trained to crawl on each other, on top of each other. Yeah, so is that like, was there a mental hurdle to get over, or was it so like, soon, and because it was so much safer there and so much well managed there, it didn't feel as bad,

[20:53] Speaker 3: I think in because on that very first day of rehearsal, there was obviously a lot of, you know, like official company discussion about, how are we going to conduct this production in COVID times, you know? And a really, really important conversation, which I think is carrying over even into now in theater, about like, theater has always been the industry with, if you are sick, you still come in and you push through, you know, you don't take a show off unless you were literally dying, and that conversation now being like, if you have a mild sore throat, you do not come in, you know. So really that changing, changing standard of what our conduct was going to be, and one of those main things was that we conducted ourselves for the entire duration of the tour, effectively as a bubble, because it was acknowledged that, you know, it's cats and we're going to be on top of each other on stage, sweating and singing and screaming, and, you know, it's, it's a very physical show, and it's a lot of, you know, damp leotards and and so it was, it was an accepted fact that we were going to have to do that and, and so what was set up was that when we were in the rehearsal space, when we were rehearsing, it would be no masks. Obviously, we'd be in contact with everyone. But the, you know, the the expectation is that the decisions that you make outside of the rehearsal room you're making for the entire company, you know. So don't go to that nightclub because, yeah, don't go, yeah, because you'll come back and if you bring something in that's going to affect every single person here, and and, and we all appreciate how lucky we are to be here, to have a job at all. So, you know, because back in our home countries, in the UK, in America, in Australia, no one else was working. So it was just, it was really just put on us very early on to consider that and, and so, yeah, so there was no sort of, no touching of people or anything. And it was actually really nice, because it meant for the entire duration of that contract, you know, our cast mates, we were able to be close with them, you know, we we went to each other's, you know, apartments in our hotels, and have movie nights, and, you know, play games and, you know, do all that sort of stuff. And feel like it wasn't, you know, I can't be close to people. It was obviously very much like that in public when we were outside of our bubble. And, you know, face masks everywhere, and really, really thorough regulations in terms of the COVID conduct in Korea. But when we were within our bubble, it was, it was great.

[23:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's almost like a camp. Yeah, you're kind of like isolated, and, yeah, you're having a good time. That's fun. I want to pivot a little bit to some of the nuances in your version, because you went more towards, and maybe this is second nature for you since you saw street Tugger, but it went more towards the kind of like revival London version, or the original London version, than it was the 2016 Broadway version. Yeah. So I want to know, because, you know, I was really hoping that your your cast would bring back Gilbert, but that was only in the Japanese productions. But tell me about George, because George was is in your cast. And George, I think, is like Peter for the 2016 cast. Yeah,

[24:13] Speaker 3: so George in our production is, he's just a named on stage swing character, so he doesn't have any major things that he does or doesn't do. He really jumps in and jumps out. I mean this, I wouldn't say there's a lot to talk about,

[24:28] Speaker 2: so there's no backstory, like three the three words, right? Did you get the three words? Does George not get three words? I

[24:34] Speaker 3: couldn't tell you what I think George does, but I couldn't tell you what they are. But I was really ever near, I don't know

[24:48] Speaker 3: did do some research. George was that dance captain. So, yeah,

[24:51] Speaker 2: okay, what I know about George is that they, they are in the sixth member of growl Tigers crew. You. And that was the only two things I could find about George

[25:05] Speaker 3: fascinating. I don't know about either of those things. We're not

[25:09] Speaker 2: going to be able to solve any of my George questions today. I'm sorry, what? What other nuance is like getting to do what you do six different tracks, five tracks, six tracks,

[25:20] Speaker 3: well, really, only four, actually, obviously, just some of those tracks have multiple characters.

[25:25] Speaker 2: I guess Tiger wouldn't be a separate track. Yeah, yeah. What like? How did you prepare first time being a swing, to switch back and forth between different personality types. And, I mean, and this is a wide range of personality types,

[25:45] Speaker 3: yeah, it's a wide range. I mean, I very much, because so much of the show is music. I made sure I had the music all down first. That was the biggest thing. And, and I really worked a lot into characterizing within the music with the awareness that, you know, often when I'm beyond for a first time doing a track, there's not a lot of time to think so you just got to hope a lot of it's already in your muscle memory. So I, you know, made very clear distinctions between them vocally. I suppose first was the big thing, cassette tape, exactly, exactly. Probably a lot of influence from that concept tape as well. Yeah. So that was probably the big thing. And then, and then, obviously, physicality is the other really big one, because so much of the work in cats is done by the costuming and the makeup and the wigs, even to the degree that when you have swings and covers on and you're backstage, you kind of think they're different people sometimes, because you just, you see the the costume, and you start to identify the costume and the makeup with a person and and you forget that actually it's someone else under there. So yeah, so really, the two big things were vocal, vocal changes and physicality that I really worked on and making those different. And I think with Tugger, Tugger was the biggest journey for me. I I really had to find a new part of myself that I had never accessed before. And actually I'm really grateful for having done it, because I think it's brought out a different freedom for me as well. It by the end of the tour. Is actually my favorite track from the start of the tour, when it was the one that I was like dreading. Yeah. Who do you think you think

[27:25] Speaker 3: I wouldn't say there's a particular person to be completely honest with you, but there was definitely an element with Maya Tugger of you know, is he, you know, playing into that fluidity and promiscuity and we, I was particularly close outside of performing, to our mystopolities, which fan fiction, which lined up really well for the fan fiction. And we actually every time, because I went on quite I think I went on probably most photograph out of all of my tracks. That's the one works.

[28:03] Speaker 3: And, and so it ended up being quite a thing that, you know, we really lent into that tug of police kind of fantasy that would happen and, and we definitely had a lot of fans enjoying that, and we got a lot of focused fan art on the two of us, and, you know, that would be gifted to us and things. So it was, it was a lot of fun to play into that. But, yeah, it was, it was really enjoyable. And I'm really glad I got to find that outgoing kind of fun, devil may care personality to myself, you know, yeah, it's

[28:36] Speaker 2: gonna be fun as a performer to learn and, like, pull a different thing out, even if it is a challenge or not something you think to like, get to experience. Yeah,

[28:44] Speaker 3: I think as a swing too. That's one of the really delightful things about being a swing, is because, you know, you are getting cast as things that you wouldn't normally be casting. You know, for me, it was very much. I clearly fit a monkey strap. I clearly fit a Gus, you know, Deuteronomy, I more than capable of singing that if we absolutely had to, and just check in Tugger. Because, I mean, if he's there doing the other three, just put Tugger on, you know. So something that I know I would never, never actually get cast in. But then I got to actually play that role quite a lot, and, and that was a really wonderful experience and opportunity for me to, like, you know, do something that I didn't feel was very me. But because, I think, in drama school, you know that you're really encouraged to extend yourself and play things that aren't you, because they're trying to break down what your inhibitions are and make you comfortable doing things. But then once you graduate, it really goes back into now, what's your type you play your type, you know. So it was really nice, you know, being a swing, getting to play things that I really don't feel I would normally get to play, and getting to really find that and enjoy that.

[29:50] Speaker 2: I love it. I want to do one more kind of plot question I think, you know, I know I've dug a lot into the story, and so I feel like. Gotten I was, you know, most of my non George non Gilbert questions answered, but I do think, like you did, need to go during the pandemic. I'm sure there are people that saw it for the first time. I'm sure it's for most of people. It's not going to be private on their primary language, and it is in English. How would you describe it to somebody? The story of cats as someone who's never seen it and is coming to see it for the first

[30:25] Speaker 3: time, I would say ultimately, it is a story about forgiveness as a collective. I The narrative is obviously about a collective of a community of cats, a tribe, if you will, the Jellicle Tribe, who have an annual gathering where they someone is chosen to be reincarnated. And but it's also kind of like a competition, and every year the contestants, if you will, prepare like a new number, which is really exciting and, and so there's a series of performances that are put on, you know, amongst this ritual where eventually somebody is chosen to be reincarnated as the most deserving. And in this particular instance, on this night, that is crucipe, and that has the additional arc of her having been ostracized, and then eventually everyone realizing that they really messed up and and, and that forgiveness route, and, yeah, that's, I think that's the long and the short of

[31:29] Speaker 2: it, really. I like that. That's the arche guy. I do appreciate. I think I've been trying to piece together, and I haven't fully got this, but everyone who saw it young, or had some interaction with it young, I think, has a much more wholesome answer to that than everyone who saw a little bit later in life. And later in life, it's like, yeah, I mean, we it's an orgy. I once saw an orgy for I saw, was it nine minutes of people basically climbing on top of each other on the floor, and there's a lot of other stuff with, as you already alluded to, a fluid character that may or may not be with this character, with that character. That's what, to me, makes the show fun, because as a someone who likes to pick apart writing, there's a lot of a lot of open answers and unanswered questions. Okay, let's pivot to our rapid fire. You got to play multiple roles, but if you could ignore vocal range, ignore gender, if you could pick any cat to play, one night, one track, who would you want to performance?

[32:43] Speaker 2: love it. Okay? So, so you don't the Tugger is not your personality, and you pick the female version of Tugger, she's

[32:50] Speaker 3: so fierce. Oh, I just love watching her. And our bum is incredible. And I Oh, it's just, just, how could you not?

[33:00] Speaker 2: I do think is, the more I've heard the music, the more I love that song.

[33:07] Speaker 2: that cavity and her and doing her singing that like is the one that now gets stuck in my head. Most Okay, who are your favorite and least favorite cats. Remove actors and actresses from this, character wise, who are your favorite? Ali's favorite.

[33:30] Speaker 3: I actually am not very fond of monk, and this is someone who identifies most closely with monk, and played monk a lot, but I just every time, for me, every time I did it. And we get to the the procession line where, you know, Grizabella comes and sees everyone at the end, I just really feel like he's the the asshole of the group. You know every you know that everyone else has differing degrees of you know, how much they do or don't disciple, but with monkey strap like he really he's he's so black and white, you know, try, and he's coming from a place of trying to do the right thing, but I think he's coming from a place of insecurity about his role and and he's trying to be so correct that he no longer Has the empathy to see past black and white, and even in the way that he, you know, he treats Demeter as well, because Demeter is this whole conflicting, you know, wants to connect with Grizabella because she's been through the same kind of thing and and monkeys strap and Demeter, allegedly a thing. I don't really buy into that plot point so much. But he's also a bit of an ass to Demeter again, like just Yeah. I'm not a big fan of Mark.

[34:46] Speaker 2: She's going from one abusive relationship to potentially second yeah to another one. I do think with monk, the more I like analyze his character, the more I wonder what his role actually is. Because. Because he's supposed to be the next in line. But I you know, the way they portray Old Deuteronomy is he's not going anywhere anytime soon, like he's not gonna ever be the choice he's gonna be around. He has unlimited lives. He kind of feels almost God like, so then is this, like the This must have been the year that I think monk realized that, like, Oh, I'm I'm doing all this work to be next in line, and I have no chance, because he's not going anywhere.

[35:30] Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a very long plan, like, maybe in 30 years, Monk will step up, and I think he probably needs that 30 year time period to actually improve on himself first.

[35:42] Speaker 2: I mean, they make it seem like Cassandra is, like, 1000s of years old. Yeah, right, so, but, like, is he ever getting the shot? Like, how this is an, I think this is an annual thing. There's been some debate on that. It feels like it's annual, though, how many more balls? I mean, how many more people does he have to watch get killed before he gets to start doing the

[36:01] Speaker 3: killing. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I mean, there's not that many cats, is the bottom line, but I suppose there they'll bring more back in. There's, yeah, they recycle through Peter O'Connor,

[36:15] Speaker 3: comes in. So it all starts again. Yeah. Look, I reckon, I reckon he's got a good couple of years, though, before, like, I definitely from our production, and when I, you know, got to play monk, I I felt like this, this particular event in question is his first opportunity at kind of actually running it, not in theory, like I understand that he's being trained up until this point completely theoretically, you know, and completely through observation. And this year, he actually gets to do some of it. He doesn't get to do all of it, but there are certain components that are entrusted to him at this particular time, you know. That is He obviously, because he has a bit of a thing about control, organizing the performance element of, you know, rehearsing all of that. And he, you know, gets to have some input in the in the ball, and there are some components, and, you know, he withdraws to observe certain parts with dude. Yeah, I think, I think he's, this is his first sort of hands on experience, but I definitely don't think he's about to just step up next year.

[37:26] Speaker 2: I think you just described monkeys chat as, like, one of the waitress waiters in training, or waitresses in training. He finally gets to actually take the order, but the guy is still standing over his shoulder, like, you get it right? Like, that's what you just described. Is for monkeys. I think that's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. He's, you know, he's allowed to do the job, but not without supervision, still, exactly,

[37:48] Speaker 3: and not it. Well, he doesn't even get to do the whole job. Oh yeah, he does do some, but not important parts Exactly. He didn't carry the drink, carry the

[37:58] Speaker 2: drink, or take the food order or anything else just enjoy. I love it. Okay, so that was, that was favorite. Who's your favorite?

[38:16] Speaker 2: I love it. Actually, you now love Yeah, you're hooked,

[38:20] Speaker 3: yeah? Well, I really do, and that's what I mean, I really loved playing him in the end, like, it's just so much fun, but it's so much fun because he's so he's one of the few characters, I think, who is able to really step outside of the tribe mentality. He's part of the tribe, but he's also, like, has this free pass of being, you know, the daddy's baby, but also, like, you know, everyone knows, oh, that's just Tugger. Tugger does that thing, which means that he's able to step out, I think, and I kind of like that he has the freedom to do what he wants to do, whereas a lot of the other characters don't have that freedom. And I think ultimately, yeah, he likes to stir people up and cause some stuff, but at the same time, I ultimately think he's a very good hearted character who, you know, has a lot of vanity but also a lot of heart. And I kind of like that. He's flawed in that way. Yeah, yeah.

[39:20] Speaker 2: I've always seen him as the, like, kind of stuck up rich kid who is constantly saying, do you know my dad is, yeah to everybody after he gets in, like, loose trouble, but not really bad trouble, just like a little, you know, cause a little bit more of a menace, not really a problem. So, yeah, okay, what about favorite

[39:42] Speaker 3: song? Oh, ah, I have, I can I have two answers your favorite? But it's a favorite part of the show that is a song. My favorite part of the show that is a song is at the start of Act Two. I'm. When we have the cat stand and everyone sings moonlight, which in our production we did in Korean, I think that's fairly standard for the Asian tours. The International Asian tours, they translate into the language of the country that they're in, but I just think it is the most magical part of the entire show, this beautiful still moment and that little key change, and then everyone just like having this feeling of liftedness and light, and they're like, suddenly transfixed, and everything's clear. And I just think it's like, you know, that delicate thread part of the show. I love that. So that's always the most magical part for me. I think as far as something to sing, I really think skimble Shanks is the, really, the most enjoyable as a performer, because it's just, it's great fun, and it's got all these things happening, and the time signature, and it's, it always energizes you, especially at that point in the show, like you're tired, you know, and and it's, it's pretty hard to get through the whole thing, and then you get to that sort of last third or just before, like, yeah, two thirds, and it's the song just always picks you up. And I really like that, because you need that energy to get through the rest of the show. It is,

[41:12] Speaker 2: I definitely see that. It also feels, though it's, like, fairly demanding, depending on what you're building in the training, like you're picking something up.

[41:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, maybe I'm biased, because my parts were always fairly easy. They were like, you know, standard, hold the smoke pipe and pump the smoke out of it. I love

[41:28] Speaker 2: it. That's, that's, that's definitely part of it. Okay. Last rapid fire before the million dollar question, which cat do you think? Because, I mean, you performed during the heart of the pandemic and during, like, the chaos of it all. Which cat do you think would have, like, really thrived during that kind of first couple months of the pandemic? I

[41:46] Speaker 3: feel like it's a Cassandra thing, isn't it? Like, I feel like Cassandra be so chill. Just like, Yeah, great. I don't have to say anyone for a couple of months, this is perfect. You know, just very comfortably doing this self care at home. You know, just getting to catch up on things that they've wanted to do, but have been a little occupied for I think Cassandra would really thrive a little lockdown sort of answer. I

[42:09] Speaker 2: still think the two most the answers I've always thought of were because I used to ask, who would you want to be quarantined with? But I think Cassandra is there. I think one is someone I forget who said this? I apologize whoever made the actual reference, but Victoria would probably become a Tiktok influencer, like just home learning dances and being speaking

[42:29] Speaker 3: from our production. And I adore our Victoria. She's fabulous, but I think she may be a Tiktok consultant.

[42:37] Speaker 2: I think bus, bus for Jones probably lives in a mansion, has a bunch of food already, like he already seems like the type of person that just is kind of chilling out.

[42:47] Speaker 3: My concern is like, what if he can't get to the health department for the actual likes to cardiac things that he needs, because he has health things. So, you know, I worry that he might be one of the vulnerable in the community. Yeah,

[43:01] Speaker 2: that's fair. Okay, I look at Sandra's answer. I had not actually thought about her as but that does it does line up. She would be,

[43:08] Speaker 3: I just think she'd be more bothered by having to see people, you know, and this is that introverts ultimate. Thank you, universe. I finally don't have to see people love

[43:21] Speaker 2: it. So, million dollar question. I have argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right job for choice. So I would like to hear if you are going to defend Grizabella, or if you're going to pick somebody else, if you're Old Deuteronomy and why?

[43:41] Speaker 2: it, Deuteronomy. So you get to you've actually embraced, evaluated this decision,

[43:46] Speaker 3: yeah, I the first thing I will say is I always feel for Gus, and this is also coming from having played Gus, yeah, because I feel like Gus is really at that age where he's not having great quality of life anymore, you know. So I'm purely talking like in terms of this time, not even, not even emotionally. I'm just going, Gus is not doing well, you know. And it's almost cruel to not like this poor cat who's probably ready to let go, but is being kept around because can they not die of their own accord? I don't know. Haven't thought about that, but you know, so that's my first thought. My first thought is always Gus. Is there? Gus probably needs to move on. Now, that said, I very much buy into the arc for Grizabella of redemption. And I mean, and that's, that's part of the show that is like, that is the actual arc of the show, really. So let me,

[44:58] Speaker 2: let me give you my. Challenge this. I don't disagree that there's a redemption arc I get where, you know, again, 40 years of success is probably means I'm on the I'm I'm in the minority of this argument. I think this is the most common one, if redemption is the main goal of Old Deuteronomy. So because, again, I think this is a when this hits criteria for choosing. I do challenge that. Like, how does he choose every year? Does he choose differently? Every year? There's not going to be a redemption story every year. So does that criteria change every year? There's a lot of things going here, but my biggest question is, if he is as a redemption is the choice, why not have her be next year's pick? Let her live a year back in the tribe, and like with all the cats that are now embracing her, like, want to, want to give her that experience, versus, I guess, the reward, quote, unquote, of being chosen. I don't feel like that's redeeming her, that is almost getting her out, versus giving her a chance to be with the tribe that she's like, trying to redeem, and come back to, I

[46:05] Speaker 3: don't know if Jude's really doing it for her, though, is he this? Is this is the thing I feel like, because I did have that thought I went, Oh well, like she could live for a year and she'd be happier, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm sure there'd be lots of lessons learned, you know, from that experience, but I actually kind of wonder whether it's more of a learning on teaching opportunity for dudes in this moment, yeah, for the rest of the cats, rather than for Grizabella of like, Do you know what I mean I do? And I like, I've

[46:37] Speaker 2: just, we have explored this at every single age. So again, I'll go back to and this is why I love, I love the debate of this, because I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I mean, clearly there's a right answer, because the show ends every night the same way. But if that is the case, then I take you to next year's ball. Does he need to teach a lesson again next year, or does he just pick us? I

[47:02] Speaker 3: think, I think that can change like I think, I don't think it needs to be you have to learn a lesson every year. I think it would be based upon, what does the tribe need at this moment in time? And presumably, Grizabella doesn't come and do this every single year. My understanding is that she actually hasn't been seen for quite a long time, and has really just come out of the work now, and we've really started seeing all of this aggression. I mean, maybe it's a snap decision. Maybe it was going to be Gus here and then, and then Grizz turns up, and Jude's like, hold up, everyone. I didn't realize y'all were so friggin, you know, like, xenophobic about this foreign person who's just come back into the group. I didn't realize you were all behaving like this, you know, and maybe that's why that decision needs to be made now, you know, to to nip that in the bud. I yeah, I just, I think that's my gut feeling. Is that it's actually based upon the necessity to teach all of the cats, particularly mum, castrap, just gonna throw that name out there, you know, the really problematic one in the group, you know, to to be more open hearted about their you know, what is, effectively their family, who they have ostracized, yeah. And I think if you, if you deal with that issue, then you're going to have a better year after anyway, rather than, I mean, it could be, I'm thinking, as a politician here, then, you know, it could be a worse decision to keep her around for a year undo that initial hard work of, oh, look, we're all forgiving and redeeming, and then discovering that There are actually a lot of problems, because this person is dived separately, and, you know, and start having hierarchy problems. And, you know, like, what's what's journey? Any dots gonna? Think that's gonna be a friggin nightmare. I don't know. Like, I just think it might be the sensible thing, as well as most useful from his perspective, I don't think that's necessarily in Grizz best interest

[49:06] Speaker 2: that. So there are lots unpack there, I agree, and a lot of that. I so you kind of made a couple arguments, which is like, who's the most me, what's the best for the tribe, which I'm still not positive that answers Isabelle, because then that answers probably cavity.

[49:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, so is Macavity gonna come back and do it? Or do they literally have to pin him down and stick a knife in him? Like,

[49:29] Speaker 2: well, in the new movie, it's all he wants. So I do think

[49:33] Speaker 3: which is so weird. I always just block that out. Just block all the new movie out.

[49:38] Speaker 2: I just there's it all boils down to me, of what is Deuteronomy criteria, and then does he make that same criteria every year, or does he change it? I think that is really the root of it, and that's not the way I answer the question. I answer the question purely in the sense of, I treat it like a singing competition and I'm going. Pick it like, wonder one direction, the next factor. Like, give me two of the ones I enjoyed the most. Who's going to vote from home, and that, to me, is to go, please. But that's not the way they're children, and I don't think that's the way we'll Deuteronomy is picking that's if America's voting from home. And granted, I've always that's that also shows how some of my bias is like, yeah, America voting for home. And I'm like, we're talking about a South Korean cast, like, you know, an audience. Like, it's a global production. It's a show that's been around forever, globally, all over the world. It's been, you know, it's, it was running, and I think it was running in Vienna, until, I think they just went on lockdown as we're recording this. But it's still, it's still running. It's on tour in the US, like it's a show that's been around for a long time. But I don't think I'm my goal is not to change your mind anymore. My goal is to change Andrew Lloyd Webber's mind, or just to be part of cats too. I want to be part of the next iteration of cats. But what

[51:01] Speaker 3: would you play? What role would I play? Yeah,

[51:07] Speaker 3: you could choose now, if you could choose, what would you what would you do if

[51:11] Speaker 2: I got to so I think what I would what I really want to do right now is I want to come in as a creative consulting to a current cast, and I want to just introduce all the rumors into the background stories, all the characters, and be like, and I remember, I've talked to the Vienna Victoria, and be like a lot of people think that Chris Bell is your mom. Like, you need to play this that way tonight, these two cats are together. Here's a love triangle. I don't know, like, I'm not qualified or should be influencing or writing a musical or changing story, or I can't tell you the first thing about the song and dance and staging any of that stuff, but I could go in and say, Hey, if you're busted for jelly and gray, it's like, I think you got a little love triangle there we can play into when you do your number and stuff like, what's made me play into that tonight? Let's see how that resonates. That's what I want to influence. That's what I want to come in. And you could put me on the tour tomorrow, and I could go meet all of them and go, okay, here are the rumors about your cat that I would love for you to play. Tell me if there's any truth to it, like, go out there and tell me if you buy that or it feels believable, because it's not gonna change the play. It's gonna just be a minor thing here that a super fan will

[52:27] Speaker 3: notice that well, this is one of my favorite things. I think about doing this show, and that really surprised me is because there is virtually no dialog. You are so free to play any of these things that you want completely and and that is such a joy as a commercial music theater performer who's doing eight shows a week and it's the same stuff every single day. You know, it is such a gift to have that variety of choice and to, you know, even have differences of opinions within one cast about how things are operating. But it doesn't matter, because you're not saying any words, yeah, and I always, I always found I'd get to the end of a show and and forget that I hadn't been speaking for two and a half hours, because I felt like I had been having lines with people. It's just that I'd been looking at them and thinking things really clearly and aggressively. It's like you have dialog in this show, but it's just not said. It's,

[53:24] Speaker 2: it's, it's staging and different pieces. There I am, I know, and I won't say who, because I don't want to get any directors or anybody mad at them or me, but I know that people have taken things from conversations I've had on this podcast and brought it into future performances, and have had successfully, like, tried that, like, one day, tried that arc differently and how it plays. So that's my that's my goal, my future. It's on tour in the United States. I've offered, I've not been.

[53:55] Speaker 3: I love that. I think that's a wonderful, wonderful career path. I think lots of productions would get a lot of benefit out.

[54:02] Speaker 2: But the problem is, I only know cats. I don't know about any other musical. I mean, like, I've seen some. I mean, I've seen plenty of other ones, but I just don't know enough about like, yeah, here's, let me tell you all the stuff. So I have a very niche market and a very niche skill set that is thankful it's been around. It's been 40 years. I was gonna say it's also a show that never ends. It's cats now and forever. Lack it should never be out of work. I could be, yeah, creative consultant on cats globally. Fly me, let me. Let me tell you the cat's Bible. Well, the problem is, it's my version of it. I know there are people who actually have a cat's Bible. I'm gonna tell you my crazy, made up theories by watching it on YouTube. Well, this has been amazing. I would love to hear. How can we find you on social media and stay in touch?

[54:52] Speaker 3: I'm pretty much just on Instagram these days. I'm Alman co leader, which is a l, m o n, COVID. You see a double at leeway, that's, that's about it, really, I don't. I'm not super fond of the socials, especially in this era like I just, I just find them a little bit terrifying. Yeah. Anyway, that's a hello session.

[55:15] Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you coming on, talking through the pandemic version, giving that defense of Grizabella, along with, like a lot of other versions to it, he didn't really pick any core answer to that question. Is very political view to to give a couple by

[55:36] Speaker 2: and it is, I don't think it's one that's gonna influence anybody's decisions in life very hard, but it has definitely made my life very different because of the amount of times I've had this argument, way more than I ever thought. But I appreciate you coming on. So thank you for being here, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast, breakdown with catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to the podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, at the wrong cat diet, or check out our website, the wrong cat diet.com, you.