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[0:13] Speaker 1: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:20] Speaker 2: to

[0:30] Speaker 3: the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of the cat. Sasha fee, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was Mongo Jerry in the US national tour number six in 2020 so welcome Tony, to Elio, and thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you coming. I was excited, because when I read your cats Wikipedia page, the first thing it says was excited to perform the role that you were dreaming about since kindergarten. So it sounds like my first question is always about your history with cats. Sounds like you have a with cat. So tell me a little bit about your first introduction to the musical. Yeah,

[1:09] Speaker 4: it runs deep. It runs really deep. So my first introduction to cats, the My Favorite VHS to watch in 1998 was a Barney musical, and at the front of that VHS tape was a commercial for cats, and it was the opening number. It was, it was like 60 seconds of what I now know is called B roll, and it just like captivated me. But my parents didn't have it, so I just thought it was this little clip that played before Barney cut to, I think I was five years old in my cousin Christina's basement, and I saw the little cats logo and I on its own tape. And I was like, Wait a second, there's more of this. So we put it in and her tape, her tape, the uh, something was wrong with it, so it only played up until act one, so I never knew what happened. I just got an act one version of cats, but yeah, it was on repeat from that moment on. And during mongorump We would climb on the back of the couch down in that basement. Yeah, that's where it's

[2:18] Speaker 3: so your introduction was a Barney musical, like, quick yes. Like the, you know, like the cartoons that come before the movie. It was they cut out, yes, they cut out one song of cats,

[2:32] Speaker 4: yeah. It was, like, the trailer to get it on VHS, yes, wow. And, and that was enough for me. I would like, rewind the tape just to, like, watch that clip I, like, was so young I didn't understand, like, what a preview was.

[2:47] Speaker 3: That is phenomenal. And then you go, so you go see and the story I hear, because it's someone who did not watch the 1998 clip and movie. I didn't have the VHS. I had a version on an iPad in probably 2019 I think is probably the first time I saw it. And everyone I talked to, like, yeah, they you blew through the VHS. So it sounds like your friend watched it so much that it just stopped running in the second act. Absolutely, absolutely, that is phenomenal. Okay, so you were hooked and you were you were dancing as, like, the two of you doing, and you were, your number was Mungo Jerry and repletezer, that was your favorite song at that age. Yeah,

[3:28] Speaker 4: well, of course, Tugger, because he was really cool, and I like, liked how he moved his hips and he had a fun song. But yeah, Mongo rump was, I don't know, just like the underscore of it, like the vamping and that song would just always get my heart rate going a little faster. And I was with my cousin Christina, so she was rump, and I naturally would be Mongo, and we tried to those cartwheels, but never

[3:55] Speaker 3: that was gonna be my question. The cartwheels are definitely part of the that version. I don't think that happened in the Broadway revival, and I don't think it happened in yours, right? Oh, it did. Okay,

[4:04] Speaker 4: it did. Yeah. Those cartwheels. Things changed when Andy Blinken Bueller came in to revive the original production. And there were, there are staple moments of that show, and those double cartwheels are, for sure, one of them,

[4:19] Speaker 3: okay, so you, never nailed it as a kindergarten, but did it as an adult,

[4:23] Speaker 4: yes, with proper supervision and instruction and probably

[4:27] Speaker 3: capabilities and practice. So walk me through, like, what, what was your take on the show as a kindergarten? Like, what did you did you pick up on all the craziness that was happening in that show? I

[4:39] Speaker 4: think what I picked up on was that you're just going into a world that is not the one that you live in, and you are experiencing life with these different characters. And as a kid, what drew me to it is all of them have their own personalities. Like as a kid, you pick up that they they're like. Different colors and different ages and have these little interrelationships, like that's what I was really fascinated with. And then on top of that, it really is what planted the seed for me to how I understand dancing, and specifically jazz dancing, which is ballet technique, except with style and with a bite. Okay, yeah, I would get because I would get in trouble in my ballet classes as a kid for doing too much and on stage at cats that

[5:38] Speaker 3: that's the gig. Yeah, it's encouraged a little bit, especially as, especially as Mungo, like you're, you're kind of supposed to be a little rambunctious and almost against authority. Yeah. Oh, absolutely, that is fun. So, so did you, I mean, when you started your professional career, was this, like, always a dream role because of your, you know, your introduction to it so early.

[6:01] Speaker 4: Absolutely. I just, I never thought that it would get produced while I was able to do it, because I don't know when the revival was announced to begin with, in 2016 I was shocked. I mean, I was so happy, but I just had not, not expected a cat survival to happen. Like, that's so, so random. But I moved to New York in 2012 and my first job was the tumbling carpet and Beauty and the Beast, which was another like childhood staple. So I kind of felt like that was that was living at my childhood dreams. And I just got very lucky that cats was also about to be a part of that. That's

[6:45] Speaker 3: amazing. So it's interesting you say that you just didn't think you'd get a chance. Because, as someone who did not know anything about cats, really, until 2016 or just, you know, knew it was a punchline of a lot of jokes. Now that I am the one of the foremost experts on cats. I think in the, you know, the world, especially in the non someone who's not done it, I am. It's everywhere. It's still in Vienna running right now. It's running on a Royal Caribbean cruise right now. I think the South Korean cast just went to Taiwan to finish their tour, or go on their continue their tour. So it's so funny hearing you as someone who's in industry being like, I never thought I'd get to do it, and me being like, it's running in four countries right now.

[7:28] Speaker 4: I know, I know. See, that's like, that's me having being very narrow minded of just looking at New York theater. Yeah, true.

[7:36] Speaker 3: And that was, you know, the revival was my introduction to it. And so the 2016 so I want to now go into, I want to hear the rest of your take. Like, what else did you take as a kindergarten away from it, like you said, Tugger. You said, you know you obviously you're doing mango, general teaser. What other parts? Like, what else was memorable for you as a kid?

[7:57] Speaker 4: Oh, what was memorable to me was Victoria breaking off from the group and having that solo. Now I'm unpacking this live in the moment. I think, why, like, why did that stand out to me? It's what I'm here. I think, I think it's because, like, it's the dance element, right? Like it was seeing these living, breathing creatures want things, feel things, it's all so many freaking feelings and and seeing that dance is the way in to communicate that and dance is like dance being the key ingredient in that kind of storytelling was just so visceral and accessible to me, because that's just how I've always moved my body. You know, it's super interesting

[8:44] Speaker 3: hearing you say that, because I do think, like, I've been very anti kids going to see the show, but clearly I'm in the minority, and it's because I look at plot, and the plot is very sexual and over the top and a little dark. But when you look at the I do think there's like, three segments of people that see it. There's the kids that are very, like, super young, like kindergarten age like you were, where it's like, just an experience and it's so fun and unique. Then there's the teenagers, or, like, the seeing it at that point, where you're like, maybe you're kind of understanding your ability to dance, or especially the theater people you you're seeing it, where maybe you start to understand some of that, like, like, her dance is a coming of age story. And I don't think a kindergarten is probably a teenager might. And then there's the adults, where it's like, Do you realize the chaos that you just witnessed? And I find it so fascinating, depending on your entry point, your version of how much you liked it, or like, what you took from it, and so it is unique. Of like, how you can bring in that you start, you kind of got to experience it in all phases, almost because you got introduced so young, and got to have the fun, like me, my cousin, dancing around all the way to now. Or you kind of really grasp what's happening, yes,

[9:57] Speaker 4: yeah. And because it's. So layered. There's so many layers to the show and like, access points to it. It's an experience. It's a spectacle, appreciating, like, the technical skill of it. And then you open the door of what's your interpretation of this zany, you know, world, and everyone's interpretation is different. So, yeah, what a transition.

[10:23] Speaker 3: What a transition. I want to hear your interpretation first of the whole show, and then we'll get into a little bit about your character.

[10:31] Speaker 4: Okay, so the whole show, it is. It's a community of of characters. And, gosh, how do I? How do I enter into this? Because I have such a specific point of view. Okay, so the show, big picture wise, is it's a community of very different characters that all rely on one on one another, and it's a community of individuals, uh, but that are all brought together under the understanding and connection to the moon, specifically, like the moon is the spirituality element. So, so the thing is, is that we talk about plot like beginning, middle and end. The the play happens in real time for the audience. Like, there's no like and, and the next day, you know, like, we walk into the junkyard, and it's happening in real time. So you're, it's performance art, you're you're watching characters exist, and the audience is to spectate and observe. And of course, if there's 2000 people in the audience, there should be 2000 different interpretations of that, because that's how performance art works. So I think the show is, is, is that? And then talking about theme, when it gets to briza Bella being chosen, that actually adds meaning to this of forgiveness of community, you know, ostracizing someone because they left, and then she comes back, and then the acceptance and forgiveness is, is the theme at the end, and that's when the audience goes, Oh, that's why we just sat through these people like rejecting her and having, having allyships. I'm getting, I'm getting a little too deep. I love it, but I think that's what it is. It's performance art with a message of forgiveness at the end. I think

[12:34] Speaker 3: you nailed a couple things I find fascinating. Is that, like, it is performance art in the sense, but it is still theater. So it's like, it's a different style than what I think I expect from most, because I view theater as a live in a lot of cases, a live movie. Maybe that's very narrow minded of me as a theater goer, and not someone in the theater community as much. But I was waiting for you said, beginning, middle, end. I was also just waiting for a conflict resolution in some capacity, and I didn't really get that. And so then it became the like, sleep, no more experience for any New Yorkers that have been there, but I didn't get to walk around like a cat. Sleep. No more would be fascinating, like you get to just be in the junkyard and kind of walk around and and experience however you want that day,

[13:18] Speaker 4: yeah, but that's, it's almost

[13:21] Speaker 3: like it is, I get that version, but hearing you say that, and then also being like, Yeah, but that's not what I think I paid my ticket for, which is so unique about the show.

[13:31] Speaker 4: It is unique, and it reminds me a lot spelling it out like that of a chorus line. The play is happening in real time, and it's the course of an audition, and you go down the line and hear all these different vignettes and all these personal stories that are entertaining, and then at the end, some people get the job and some people don't. And because we're human beings and have attached ourselves to these stories, we feel certain ways about some characters getting the job or not, or Cassie clearly having her music in the mirror moment like there being still a hero in there, which, in our case, it's Grizabella, it's Yeah. And both shows are wildly successful because audiences go in and they experience something. I

[14:19] Speaker 3: agree. I've heard the course on comparison a couple times, and it does line up, and someone who's not seen it, but kind of knows now, at least the premise. And it does really line up, and it is similar. I think cats also has this advantage of it's so bizarre that there's a novelty to it as well. So it's like, you add this, like, Okay, wait, you're gonna go see humans dressed up as cats, acting as cats, and treating the whole thing like they are cats, like, the way, the mannerisms and everything else. So that happens. And you add in kids, because you can bring anybody, any age, and hopefully find it and anything too. I. Always thought is I noticed a very international crowd the times I've seen it, because it can be performed like I'm pretty sure I could listen to in Vienna. They do it in German. Pretty sure I could watch it in German and still pick up most of what's happening, absolutely. And that's kind of a unique piece of it, too. But it's not the neat and tidy sitcom that I like our movie that I went to go see, which is why we're 70 episodes in here of me arguing, of how, why I wanted it different.

[15:30] Speaker 3: But let's hear about that. Let's go in. I want to hear your three words for Mongo Jerry and kind of what you thought really was, like, the relationships, like, where, like, obviously, we know the Mungo Jerry rimpel teaser, but I have a couple of my theories and things I've read. But curious here a little bit about, like, what your take on your cat was, yeah,

[15:56] Speaker 4: well, I am obsessed with those three words and and have taken it with me in every role I play, because it determines your attitude, your behavior and your relationship to others around you. And like that is how you do ensemble building, like it's so freaking cool. And like, we had that exercise where we were in the circle and you, you had to pick one word and then go into the circle with, like, a combo of four or five cats, and you had to play that one word like that one word controlled your entire essence. And then Chrissy would be like, okay, add another, a second word in. And it was really cool to do. And also sit back and watch how Mungo rump, who are a pair, are very different from tanta mile and pork a pat, you know, that is also in the ring, you know, so and that wasn't us just like playing these characters that we think we know. It's like, okay, my first word is cocksure, which is a British slang term for not just being cocky, but like, cocky to your own detriment, which is so like, such a fun attitude to have, cocksure. So

[17:13] Speaker 4: So, okay, segueing into the three words, they were, cocksure, street wise and cheeky. Wow. I mean, so, like, you got a relationship with the audience? Yeah,

[17:25] Speaker 3: yeah. I think, like, the three words is so fascinating because it they are. I mean, they're so spot on, and then it's because that's the way that everyone plays it, like you really you understand about the character. But I did not know cocksure. That's different. I hadn't heard that before, because I've talked to a one Mongo Jerry before, but it was in, you know, many tours ago, so I don't think they remembered everything. But okay, and so you come in, you're kind of playing that. What do you think? Like, what, how did you play the relationships with the other cats. Like, was there any that you were? Like, this is Dad, this is cousin brother, friends. Like, how did you play that?

[18:10] Speaker 4: Totally. Let's get into it. So for most important relationship of all is with rumble teaser, of course, and there are even within our company, like when Anthony zOS, who is pounciful, went in as Mongo and I was swung out. Their vibe was like they were boyfriend girlfriend hanging out on the Jersey Shore, like, you know, those two, excuse my French assholes, you know, like, very different from what Rose and I were, which was, which were brother and sister, and clearly, her older brother, her little sis, and we really developed that relationship in the rehearsal room, just because we never left each other's sides. And that, you know, that came from with talking about boys, talking about, like, if we were going out that night, like, what are you wearing? Like, some like, just mischievous things, like, I don't know, like we're, we're really soul mates in a lot of ways. And I love her. Shout out to Rose IANA COVID. I so

[19:08] Speaker 3: I've always felt, and maybe it's just again, the way I've experienced the show, or the way I've watched it, that they are brother sister, that there are four relatives, not a couple, yes, and so, okay, so it's interesting to hear you say that, and that's fun, and it's got, so got to be a little bit of the you're on tour. So you you have a slightly different dynamic compared to, you know, I guess being in New York or being in one place at a time, because you're on the road and you're traveling, and you're in new cities all the time. So that's got to add to that element, especially in the duos, where you're the twins, or, you know, you and rum,

[19:46] Speaker 4: the change of environment, and just like inside the theater, because the theater would change, and then where you were out in reality would change. And And also, if Rose and I were in an Airbnb together, that. Week, if we were living together, or if we didn't see each other outside of the show, like that, that also did impact things. But and and honey, we went on a roller coaster ride together, but we are family, you know, like, because so much was changing around us, we had to rely on each other, and we had some bumps in the road, but that's what makes a good partnership is being able to say, like, hey, this isn't working for me. Let's talk about it. You know? Yeah,

[20:26] Speaker 3: that's so it's such a unique piece. When you're in a duo like that, and you just like, you have to feed off each other, because it's going to be noticeable, because your number is together, you know? It's a it is a duo doing that, and it's really in your song, all eyes are on YouTube

[20:42] Speaker 4: for five and a half minutes. That's like. So when we were learning the show outside of our number, we were dance partners, right? Like corco Pat and Tansa mile, like they do, oh my gosh, we don't even do that much partnering as them, they are partnering like weight sharing the entire time. Rose and I, when we got to our number, that's the day that we went from dance partners to scene partners, because that, like, yes, you're out there physically with each other, and we're picking each other up. But you gotta, like, the heart, soul and eye contact has to be there, you know, like, yeah, the audience is there, but screw them. Like you're out there, the two of you just ping ponging, yeah, back and forth. Well, yeah,

[21:30] Speaker 3: I mean, and then you add in the cart wheels and, like, the, like, the physical element of being able to do some of that together. It's, it is. It was the, one of the most memorable pieces of the show for me when I saw it the first time was songs stuck in my head. I couldn't I couldn't stop singing it when I left. And such a unique piece. And was something that, I mean, I knew memory and nothing else. And I don't even think I realized memory was in the show. It wasn't until all of a sudden I got there and I'm like, Oh, I've heard this before. That's how much I know going into most theater performances. I don't look anything up, I don't reach research anything I walk in. And that's made for some interesting experiences, for sure. But with this one, it's usually pretty fun, and that's what it was. One of my more fun takeaways from the show was I was like, I remember that. I remember the train from skimble shanks and some other stuff, and and being thoroughly entertained. But one aspect a few more. What about Macavity? What's the relationship to Macavity? Um,

[22:27] Speaker 4: I was gonna say when it comes to the older men in the tribe. Mongo does not have a father. That's kind of what plays into his terrible behavior. He doesn't really have parents, but he does have his aunties and Jenny, any dots and Miss jelly? Okay? They, they're, they don't get they don't punish me, like, I'm not put in time out, but they give me a look and to me, Jenny and jelly, like, you know, keep that tail between your legs. Don't get crazy. But when it comes to the older guys, um, my Mongo Jerry was very visibly queer. So for me, obviously, Tugger is a friend with benefits. And Tugger, though, right, exactly, and I see, okay, so my cavity, it's, I can say it now, because I'm not doing it. But my secret was that I would sneak away at night, and my cavity was kind of like grooming me to, you know, take over his reign when he, like, moves on, because I like looked up to him for, like, causing so much trouble. So anytime there was a scare of my cavity, I just, like, got a little tickle inside, you know,

[23:45] Speaker 3: I love that you like that you're kind of bringing that element in. And it's like, I love that. It's also a now that I'm done, like, because that's kind of something I always thought. I was always like, you know, they are these two. Like, they're either the rich kid who knows mom and dad can bail them out, type of thing, because I think that you guys wear collars. So there's some like, maybe you're part of like the house, especially in the new movie, like you're breaking into your own house and stealing. But at the same time, there's also a little bit of like, you are kind of the I always called you the klepto cats, like you're the ones stealing. So maybe you are working under Macavity is kind of rain, and so I love hearing that you're that you were behind the scenes, kind of, yeah, you were, you were into that,

[24:29] Speaker 4: and, and as far it's funny, you mentioned the callers that kind of was a way for all of us to, like, learn more, like the day that we got the costumes, it's like, Oh, okay. Like, who, who's wifed up right now by an owner, and all the kitten boys who were like my buddies, like pouncival and tumble tumbles shy and quiet, but pounciful is like my buddy, um, their their callers didn't have that big ring on it, but Mungo's, for sure, did, like it's Mongo. Girl and monk who have like these really chunky collars with like a big ring on it. And to me, it was kind of like, as an actor, I took it as him trying to fit in, like he he's a he's not yet a grown kid or a grown cat. He's just kind of like this teenager who is trying to be like one of the big boys,

[25:22] Speaker 3: yeah, that does lend a lot of the other potential rumor mills is because your collar is similar that and everyone assumes that monk and Tugger are brothers, that there might be some relationship there, like, maybe you're either in that family or adopted by that family that owns, like, you know, five or six cats with collars. Yes,

[25:46] Speaker 4: exactly they're, I'm not related to them, but, like, the brothers the trifecta, yeah, of monk, Tugger and Macavity. Um, a really funny story about the callers is T ON, who has our misophyllies we are seeing, like, ooh, who has a collar and miso does not have when he has that bow tie and T on, just goes, I'm free. Just like, motion to his neck. And then that, and then that evolved into him just saying that he's a star because he is and he has a bow tie,

[26:20] Speaker 3: yeah. And that's, that's a show stopping number every time. Oh, absolutely, especially when t did it amazing. Um, what about in terms of the ball and the Jellicle choice? How do you look at like, do you even consider Mungo Jerry rumple teaser in the running? Absolutely

[26:40] Speaker 4: not. No chance. Absolutely not. So another joke, a joke that we had was that this light beam would come down and, like, would hit the wrong cat, and they would just, like, start, like, being lifted off the stage, literally the title of this podcast, and rose. And I had this whole bit going where we were like, no, no, we don't want to go holding on to each other.

[27:06] Speaker 3: My, my newest thing is I still want to have because on, especially on tour, when you're moving around city to city, I want to have a different cat picked every night, and then not have that cat performance the next day, like, and they're out. So now they got to go to the next, like, the next ball, and they're out. So you're into the next one, which what you would never do, because, like, you want to see the performers, not, I don't mean it from a like, a standpoint of like, a, you know, how talented everyone is. It's more of a standpoint of like, from the storytelling. I think it'd be fun to say, like, Okay, we, we took this cat out to be reborn. Now they're gone next next person,

[27:46] Speaker 3: That's your that's why you're looking at it. I'm purely writing here, and you're like, I would take a day

[27:51] Speaker 4: off. Yeah, exactly. Okay.

[27:54] Speaker 3: Let's shift gears into a little bit of rapid fire. Okay, if you were not playing Mongo, who would you want to play and why? And let's say you can be any cat. Doesn't matter. You know, male, female vocal range, anything, just anybody, anyone that you want, that you could just play for a

[28:16] Speaker 4: day. Okay, I'm gonna go with Tugger. We want

[28:22] Speaker 4: It's Mongo energy, you know. And he doesn't have to crawl that much,

[28:29] Speaker 3: okay? And you get to just, like, completely, like thrust, the entire show. Absolutely love it. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats, characters, not actors, of

[28:41] Speaker 4: course. Least favorite, I'm sorry, but Grizabella, oh, this is good. I'm like, Girl, like, when I saw it as a kid, I was like, move it along. Like we get it. I were okay. I'm sorry. And I just like, I hissed at her for a year of my life, and it can't go away. Okay? Favorite cat, um, I love Gus, the theater cat, because he is always giving, like, the most Shakespearean performance of your life, like in any moment on that stage, look over at Gus, and it's like, how does Gus feel about this? I promise it's it's good. I love that. That's good. It's always

[29:30] Speaker 3: a hot take. This is lending well for my final question, but we're not there yet. What is your favorite song?

[29:37] Speaker 3: you just you love it. What if I take that out, because you did that so much so I

[29:41] Speaker 4: love it, okay, honestly, the the dance break of the ball the or the ending of the opening number Jellicle song for Jellicle cats, from specifically, uh, statistical cats, to the end to the button. Okay,

[30:00] Speaker 3: love it. Yeah, it's very specific. Um, you know, you you kind of were on right before the pandemic. So I do, I kind of enjoyed asking, I know I've kind of enjoyed asking, Which cat character wise, do you think in the beginning of the pandemic, March 2020, which cat was living their best life still, like, which cat was still okay? You know, like the world shuts down, kind of a unique time. Who's Who's still all right? Rumple teaser? Why? It's a new one. I haven't heard it yet, because

[30:37] Speaker 4: honey rumple teaser is a girl who looks out for herself. She makes it work. She went and when she couldn't dance anymore, got her real estate license and started selling, you know, apartments to cats. So I don't know like I just see Rumpel teaser as that girl who will reinvent herself in a time of need. I just

[30:59] Speaker 3: had this vision of selling sunset rumple teaser kind of crossed my mind. Oh, 100%

[31:06] Speaker 4: with hoop earrings, click clacking in with heels.

[31:10] Speaker 3: Get Old Caddy with, yeah, little caddy with the other, other real estate agents. I see it. He's competitive, yeah, I see it. Okay. I like that. Let's, let's go. And now I think, since you said your least favorite cat was Grizabella, and you love Gus, I'm hoping I know where this is going. But my last question, my the million dollar question, is always, I've argued at length. I don't think Grizabella is the right jello choice. I know the flaws of my own argument, but I always love to hear, if you're Old Deuteronomy, who are you picking? And if it's Grizabella, Defender, if not, who are you picking and why

[31:49] Speaker 4: it's not Grizabella. This is a hot start. Hot start. I like this, so it's okay, and it is Gus. And here we go. It's Gus because he has proven that he has lived a full life like he spiritually is so settled his how he beautifully lays it out in his song. He just he's kind of on this like monk like level of being so wise and so at peace with everything he's done. And the justification that they give for Grizabella is it's because she stands back up and like Old Deuteronomy is looking at her, like, Girl, stand up. You got this, come on, stand up. And I just it's not enough for me. It's like, Yeah, I'm happy you stood up, but honey, like, take a good long look in that mirror, fix your face. Your makeup is terrible. And like, I'm gonna need you to have a whole nother trip around the sun, a whole nother year of self love, read a book. You know, maybe don't wear those kitten heels anymore. Like she needs an Eat, Pray, Love moment before she is moved on to the heavy side lair.

[33:07] Speaker 3: I love it. So the the answer you're given of like old dude Remy telling her to stand up because she kind of collapses, melting out memory, and I never, I don't think he

[33:18] Speaker 4: doesn't say it, but he looks okay, like, come on. And at least that's how brands and Michael NACE played it when we did the show, like he looked at her, like, Honey, you better get up off that floor.

[33:34] Speaker 3: the part that I that you said, that has really, I've struggled with as the more I've talked about this, is that the whole redemption story for Grizabella doesn't make sense to redeem her and immediately murder her. It's like, give her her year with the tribe.

[33:51] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, like, we accept you by Yeah.

[33:56] Speaker 3: Like, peace, good luck. I'm going to now kill you, and then you're going to come back and we're going to forget all of this. Yeah?

[34:05] Speaker 4: Because I know we say, like, die and kill and like, the human sense, I understand that sounds like vicious, but in this science fiction musical, to go to the heavy side layer is like, elevating yourself reward, right? Yeah, yeah. It's a reward. It's a past the graduation stage, get your degree. Yeah,

[34:26] Speaker 3: it's, it is the it's like a new life in the whole I enjoy putting the dark terms to it, because it just makes it more entertaining. But yes, it is a, it is a like winning, essentially, in this in this world. So okay, so you are Tim Gus, and I don't disagree with you,

[34:47] Speaker 4: like I understand she has the big song, and audiences are so conditioned to to think like but if she's saying a high note at the end of Act Two, we have to cheer for her, right? Right, like, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. I mean, and that's, that's great. She sang her song, but she doesn't need a trophy.

[35:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's obviously written a certain way for that reason. So her song comes at that moment I understand. I'm just, I'm happy anytime someone argues against her with me, that's all it

[35:23] Speaker 4: is. I like. I want both. I want, I want them to say, you know, Grizz, we accept you, pull up a chair, have dinner with us. But as I said, before, look in the mirror and fix your face, and then we can talk about next year. Yeah, hey,

[35:40] Speaker 3: you have to. You'll sing again. You'll prove your worth again. Your biggest competitor will be out of the competition. And and then you're, you know, then you're starting to look at some other cats. I've made an argue for almost everybody. So I've got, I've got arguments ready for most people. Wow.

[35:59] Speaker 3: the is the easiest and best, like true if we're gonna stick to the same story redemption and like, deserving and worthy and live the most cat fulfilled life. It's

[36:13] Speaker 4: Gus. I feel like if it were a twit, like a 2022, reality show, the twist like shock, audiences would probably be like, Victoria, like, Victoria has a secret, and it's like, What? What? Like, it's Vicky. And then the season ends, and then you have to tune in for season two there.

[36:35] Speaker 3: If you look at it from that angle, there's so many ways you could do that, because you could send, like I always joked, and I still stick to this, but my answer is not one cat. It's actually togo police going together, because I think it's I looked at this as the X Factor, and they generally took a bunch of solos and made them a band. That's how we got one direction and everything else. So if I'm voting and I'm putting it together as Old Deuteronomy, Simon Cowell, that's what I'm doing, and I think that that still holds merit.

[37:11] Speaker 4: Wow, I hear that knowing my Tugger and misto tiam would be like, yeah, that's cute, but I'm Beyonce.

[37:26] Speaker 3: So I think there's two things I know that skew that angle. One is, is that if you look up fan fiction, it's all, all about the two of them, and a lot of the like, for sure, unnecessary, or, I don't know, maybe necessary, but the Instagram art that you will find is generally about the two of them. Absolutely. I'm also very cognizant of my own bias. That I saw Leona Lewis as my first Grizabella. And so I was like, I witness an X factor champion. So that might have had

[37:53] Speaker 4: a little bit, yeah, she won. I forgot she

[37:57] Speaker 3: was a champion. I think she won. And so I do think that I'm a little skewed, and that when I walked in, I had a little X Factor mindset going in to begin with, but I still stick to it. That's my answer. If anybody asked me if I was logical, I'd argue Gus every day, okay, but I think it

[38:18] Speaker 4: all but it's fun to it's fun, absolutely, it's fun to, like, go down the line and be like, who, who? Okay, who really wants to contend here, who's trying to go alanzo is not an option because the job that alanzo wants is mongos, not Mongo Jesus, monkey strap. Yep, he wants monk spots,

[38:38] Speaker 3: and monk isn't really an option because he wants all deuteronomies. Yeah,

[38:42] Speaker 4: exactly. There's a there is a ladder to climb. These kitty cats are career oriented. But

[38:50] Speaker 3: you could make a lot of arguments, because it all depends on your criteria for how you pick his Old Deuteronomy. So if it's who has deserved, could argue like, could argue Demeter has gone through some stuff. You could argue that, you know, gosh, she's been through the most. You could argue that Buster is a strain and just like, needs to get out of there. You know, there's a lot of different ways mccaviddy is probably, if you got rid of him, would help the tribe the most because of the problems he caused. So it all depends on what you deem Old Deuteronomy is going to say. And my biggest question, which is an unanswerable question, because we only get one ball and we've only have an answer of rid of one ball. But does he make the same criteria every year?

[39:36] Speaker 4: Yes, the way that I interpret it, the way that monk like proudly recites what what the evening entails, and how old dude talks about it. It, to me, is so like, it's transcribed on this scroll of cat lore, you know, like the jellicles meet once a year to blah, blah, blah. So

[39:58] Speaker 3: it's interesting. Thing you say that? Because I do. I think that the ball is, is a annual we know it's gonna happen, but how he makes the decision, I would argue, I think has to be different. Or, how does he do? You have a redemption story every year? Because that's like for a forgiveness story every year. It feels odd, and that's what I I struggle to wrap my head around, of like, because I think a few people have argued and explained that, like, oh, he made his mind up when she first came out, and it's like, I'm going to teach a lesson. I'm like, was he teaching a lesson every year? Can you just like, off the person that deserves it most?

[40:33] Speaker 4: I think it really is as simple as you just said. It's like, there will be the Jellicle choice. And I think that redemption and forgiveness is then a byproduct of why it is Grizabella. It's like, I think it's whoever's ready to move on. And I think redemption, forgiveness, it sums up grizabella's moment. And then where, if it were to be Gus it's his wisdom and life experience and honestly, Transcendence, like I listening to Gus talk. Wow. I didn't realize it before this interview, but it turns out I love Gus. Gus is Gus has transcended. Okay, yeah.

[41:14] Speaker 3: And, you know, I think, well, first of all, that's, that's what this is here. This podcast is here for. It's to make all of you who have done the show think about it in a way you have never thought about it because I'm working Yeah? So that's what I'm here for. I'm trying to get different perspectives, and I'm trying to change the ending. Really. I'm trying to convince somebody to write or just one day, just not let Grizabella go. Yeah? So, yeah, one one day. Well, I appreciate you humoring me through all of this, so I would love to hear you know, how can we keep up with you on social media and see what you're working on and doing?

[41:48] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, thank you for having me first of all, because this is one of my favorite things to talk about. But the people in my life are like, okay, cool. Like, we get it. Like, don't talk about cats. Like, do not ask me about cats with a glass of wine in my hand, because we will go in. So this has been very fun. Thank you for just like I've created

[42:11] Speaker 3: this, yeah, I've created this just as an area for people to who want to talk about cats, to have that outlet, because it's a very niche group.

[42:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is. And I guess, on a more boring note, where to keep up with me is on my Instagram. Is where I share all of my short films and dance videos and class. I love teaching dance, and I have a really exciting year ahead. So if you want to see what's up at Tony deleli, oh, Tony, D, A, L, E, L, i, o, on Instagram, it's, it's all there. Subscribe, follow, comment, all of it, honey. And also, if, if you're listening to this podcast and you have made it this far, you clearly care about cats. And if you have any other theories or questions hit me up, because, as I said, people in my life don't want to talk about this.

[43:07] Speaker 3: I love it. I I still like I'm all for it. I'm more than ready because I know I'm wrong on certain things, like, I have been corrected and sent stuff and I love it. I'll argue with him. Well, it is fun. The super fans of this show are passionate and knowledgeable and really have dug deep. And it's, it's so I love it. I think it's so cool.

[43:27] Speaker 4: I want to say, like, as a fan of this show, as part of the fan base, meeting other like Jellicle fans at the stage door, truly was such. It was a highlight of the experience for me, because I've been very fortunate to have toured a lot over the past 10 years. And there was something about like, the cats fans, similar with kinky It was mostly queer kids who, like, felt some kind of like, pull and identity and safety with these characters. Because, you know, as a queer person myself. I love it, because gender doesn't exist in this world. It's it's validity. So, yeah, I don't know. And just like nerdy theater kids, which is home for me, you know, it's

[44:13] Speaker 3: you can identify with probably one cat at in this in the show, which is what's so fun, because you can definitely walk out feeling a part of it, and you're really invited, without being invited in, you know, it's like, you're, you're allowed to, kind of, you're given the ability to watch this unique thing. And it's kind of treated that way. It's like the cats kind of ignore you, but it's like, you know what? We'll deal with you all you can watch, like, welcome.

[44:38] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. If it were dogs, they would be starved for attention. But the cat, the cat point of view is, I know you're looking Yeah, and I'm here,

[45:03] Speaker 4: Well, this has been a blast. So oh my gosh, so much fun. And thanks

[45:07] Speaker 3: everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown, the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the wrong cat diet, or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com.