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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:29] Speaker 2: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown the cat stash fee, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You might know her from her time on Broadway and on tour as Elphaba and wicked, but she was also Grizabella in the fifth US national tour of cats. So welcome. Ann Brummel, thank you for joining me. Hi. Thank you for having me. I am excited. I always love when I have a Grizabella, because the whole podcast is based on the fact that I don't think that you are the right choice, but we will get there. I want to start, or I like to always start with, what was your introduction to cats before you were on tour?

[1:05] Speaker 3: Oh, I my parents took me to see cats at the Winter Garden Theater, and I distinctly remember being absolutely terrified. So just a quick backstory on my like upbringing. I grew up with parents who were Broadway performers, so I was no stranger to sitting in the audience. I was no stranger to being in a theater in a theatrical setting. So there is no reason why I should have been terrified. But I had never been in the audience when creepy, grown people in spandex come in your face with glowing eyes at the beginning of the show in the pitch black. And at the Winter Garden Theater, there was in the orchestra section, there was like the majority of the orchestra, and then there was like a very big aisle that was like horizontal to the stage, and then there were more seats, so it was like a very large aisle. And I was a small child, and a cat came right in front of me in the dark with like eyes that lit up and I screamed as if I was being stabbed to death like so that was my experience with cats. I was traumatized. That was my, yeah, that was my.

[2:15] Speaker 2: This is very good for my argument. Help me out on when I'm assuming, I'm gonna guess, it's gotta be 80s, 90s. When did this happen? Like, how old were you when you went, you

[2:28] Speaker 3: know, I really don't know it had, yes, it had to have been 80s. Um, I would say I was probably, I'm gonna go seven or

[2:41] Speaker 3: I this could totally be wrong. I could have been like, 22 I have no idea. No, I think I was. I'm gonna go seven or eight, because I don't really remember much. Like, I have the worst memory and like, I think it had to have been then I vaguely remember anything before then, I don't think I would remember.

[2:59] Speaker 2: Okay, so I have major issues with children seeing this show, yeah, because I now know way too much of the backstory, and it's very dark. And I also as an adult, when I saw the revival in 2016 and I was very, you know, a full adult, a working adult, was also the one reason I didn't scream is because I was two seats in or three seats in from the aisle, but I'm pretty sure I would have screamed because I was not ready for green eyes to be popular face, no. And I think it's terrifying for children. And then I think there are some story undertones of the plot that are also not kid appropriate.

[3:37] Speaker 3: Oh, well, it's very sexual and dark and dark. There's some sex. I also, can we just comment on the fact that, like, you know, the official term that it was called green eyes, like you were, you were officially inside. I

[3:51] Speaker 2: know I should not, if you bring me back to 2016 I did not know anything besides, cats was a long running show, and it was coming back, and that was my knowledge. Just moved to New York. I had been to Broadway before, but I wasn't like a common theater goer, and I saw the show, and now I can tell you half the lines in the plot of the of the musical. So it's been a journey. It's been 70 plus episodes, and here we here we are. But I do think it's I find it very interesting. And I guess being having parents in theater, there's probably a big difference with them thinking, You know what? Forget the undertone of this. It's theater, it's cats. Kids will enjoy it, because you can just kind of like the chaos of it all without really having to understand that the ball's an orgy, or that Demeter is getting sexually abused, or that Victoria is basically having sex on stage, losing her virginity. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot, you know. So we're, I think we're just like, I've always kind of found that fascinating. But fast forward. Did you have any interactions with the show from that moment until tour? Yes,

[5:04] Speaker 3: I did. This is so again, terrified this time as a grown human, I went to see it. I had a friend doing the show at the Westchester Broadway dinner theater in Elmsford, New York, and it was somebody that I had performed with, and a bunch of us went to go see them at West Chester Broadway dinner theater, again, a place that I had spent time as a child, because I had a parent who worked there numerous times, so like, familiar territory, and it was like, PTSD, like, I those lights went out, and that, like, overture started, and I started sweating, and I was like, if they're gonna come here, and I don't want them to come at me, I just, I don't, I want to be left alone. Like it was immediate trauma, like, shot me right back. And this time, I was not seven, I was a grown ass woman, and I was sitting in a theater sweating profusely because I didn't want dancers in spandex and cat makeup to approach me. So that was

[6:08] Speaker 2: so all came rolling back you support a friend, and it all comes like trauma comes back to you the minute the lights go out, yeah? And that two hours and 45 minutes do the whole thing, yeah, yeah, okay, full, I guess full dinner theater did the full show? Yes,

[6:24] Speaker 3: yeah, yeah. Full show. I believe. I think, okay,

[6:28] Speaker 2: I love it. So, so now those are your two interactions. Clearly, are traumatized by this. It's awful. And you get, you get audition and go on and chosen to be grizzabella, yeah. Yeah. What is that like when you're auditioning for a show that you had such vivid memories of growing up? What

[6:47] Speaker 3: was, was really funny is, I just remember, like, the audition process. I mean, Grizabella, come on, you get to sing memory I was young. It was like, you know, I was it was one of my first, like, big jobs, I guess, as a lead in anything. And you know, the sheer terror of the moment sort of went away, because when you're on the other side of it, it wasn't going to be that scary, right? And what was funny is that my sadistic side was like, I cannot wait to do green eyes, like the joy that I felt when I found out that I was going to be a part of green eyes. It was it all had come full circle. It was like, I now could, like, I could be the person scaring people. And I, actually, I did. I did for, I guess for a year, I traumatized other children. But I just remember being like, Oh, my God, this scared the shit out of me as a child and adult, which I didn't talk about as much, and now I get to do it like it was, like, sort of like conquering your fear. I'm sure a therapist would be like, face your fear. And so I did. I leaned in. I leaned into the fear.

[7:54] Speaker 2: Did you seek out children when you were doing reunions being like, I'm gonna you're gonna have nightmares because I had nightmares going up. Or did you find like an odd just a random audience?

[8:04] Speaker 3: I don't think I sought out children. I think I sought out anybody that looked unsuspecting, like some people, you know, they kind of know what's coming at them, and so they look around, or they're like they but then there's always those in the audience that are like, they don't know where they are, and their wife made them come and like, they have no idea, and you went for them. I remember we played like, I think we played like, Biloxi, missus, if you like a casino. And of course, like in a casino setting, it was like a shortened version of the show. And, you know, everybody has, like, food and popcorn. And I remember doing green eyes to somebody, a woman who screamed so loudly and threw, like, an entire, like movie bucket of popcorn, like in the air. And I don't think, I think that was maybe the high point of my career.

[8:46] Speaker 2: There was somebody in the 2016 revival that got punched No way, and said it on this podcast that they'd got hit one time. So I do think there's, there's some danger there. I, I will say I've seen the show twice on Broadway and the revival, and I've seen it twice on the VHS, and the second time I got tickets to see the revival, friend was really adamant that we went and saw it was exactly a year after I saw it the first time, and I said, I'm fine as long as I'm not in the aisle. Was like part of the my disclaimer of I did not want to be part of the that experience. And of course, we ended up in the last row of, I forget where, and I was like, Oh my God, they're gonna be behind me. They're gonna be behind me, so that, like, the minute the lights went out, I, like, lean forward. And I was like, oh my god, please just don't, let's get through this part, because I know this is coming, and I do not be part of this. And sure enough, someone's like, on the back of your seat, yep, like, climbing over you ready to go. But

[9:41] Speaker 3: I have to say, I am not great with, like, any sort of immersive theater experience in general. Like Lion King. I wasn't okay. There were hyenas. I was very nervous, like, and that was I was a full adult again, like, very nervous. I've only ever done one theater gig where I. Was immersive. And I actually, I did enjoy that. But it took a long time.

[10:04] Speaker 2: I did Sleep No More, and I was now, oh yes,

[10:08] Speaker 3: I was very uncomfortable in sleep. No, it was amazing. It was incredible. I would like to go back now, knowing what it was, but I was, I was already terrified from the elevator moment. I was like, please don't push me off the elevator. I don't

[10:21] Speaker 2: plural a report for anybody that's going to do it in New York. I tell everyone in New York you have to do it just because it's such a unique experience, yes, but it's also everything that people love about it, or my nightmares, like, Hey, you might get pulled out of the room by one person and, like, grabbed. I'm like, That sounds terrible. So there was so many parts of that, but that was the I've had a few and I I'm that's not what I'm there for. I don't want to be part of it, be a spectator. And also my first cats moment. So I love that you took that trauma and said, I'm gonna put this on to everyone else that comes across the country, to every person I can. Yep. That is phenomenal. So okay, so you had a couple experiences seeing the show before you then get the you know lead on tour. What is that like? I always love what is told to you about Grizzlies. What is the background that you're supposed to to take into like, I get the emotion of the background, but like, how much story is given to you from her,

[11:22] Speaker 3: I think, I think there's, like, as much story as can be given. So it was, it was really sort of presented to me that Grizabella had left, she left the tribe, and, like, you know, in in packs of animals, and that that's no bueno, and they don't really approve of that. And she, I think our director told us it was Richard Stafford. I want to say that he said something like, you know, she left the group, and she, like, went and, like, had a whole experience at like, studio 54 and did, like, a lot of drugs, and she partied really hard, and she's back because she's dying, and she needs forgiveness, and she needs, she needs to be reborn, and she's, you know, she's coming back, and she's but she left, and that that was not okay. And, I mean, I remember in the rehearsal process, there was a day, I mean, because, let's be honest, like you are a grown adult crawling on the floor in a studio in New York City pretending to be a cat, like that's what that's what you're doing. So that's the life choice that you have made. Is you are you're in a rehearsal studio crawling around pretending to be a cat with other adults pretending to be cats, and I remember him like all of the cats and kittens, because those exist in the show, were playing with each other. And I remember him tapping me on the shoulder and being like, you have to leave. And I was like, What do you mean to leave? And he's like, Well, you can't, you can't play with the other cats. It's lonely show. And, like, I got kicked out of the rehearsal room. And I just remember, like, being on a bench. I think it was at like, no low studio. I don't even know if it exists anymore, and I was, like, on this bench. And I remember just like, laying down and taking a nap, because I was like, Well, I guess I don't, I don't know how long this is gonna be. Just hang out here for a little while, and I guess when they need me, I'll come back. So, yeah, I kind

[13:18] Speaker 2: of love that. This is the you can't sit with us. It's the mean girls right there, right in its own form. But it's also, it's kind of a, probably a like director move of we want them to become friends and family, and we don't want you to be part of that, because we need that on stage animosity in the beginning. Yes, interesting. I kind of love that. I think that's very fascinating, because it is. I do think there's like, the, okay, you're all actors. You're all incredibly talented actors, like, you can play that. And then there's also some of the, like, psychological part of, like, No, we're not going to even let this happen. Like, you go sit over there, because we don't want them. We want them to all almost hate you.

[14:06] Speaker 3: Because, like, I think when you do a show where you are a character like that, like, this show is designed like that, right? So, like, everybody in cats is on stage together all the time. You know, they interact all the time. And then you kind of just like, come on occasionally, and when you do, you're clearly not wanted there. So you do spend a lot of time on your own, because everybody else is on stage doing their thing. And, you know, yeah, it is a lonely show for grace of Ella.

[14:35] Speaker 2: So that is another part I found fascinating that I did not. I mean, I don't think I realized, obviously I saw it twice. So it's not like it was a lot of stuff came in until I started analyzing it from every angle possible. But I didn't piece together that Grizzle is on stage for only 15 minutes during the whole show. Yeah, and to be able to tell a story of that power in 15 minutes. So how did like that? How do you rehearse for that? Cat.

[15:00] Speaker 3: I think in cats, truly, like, the larger, quote, unquote, larger your role was, like, the more notable your role was, the less you did in the show. Like, when you think about the structure of cats, I think, I mean, I guess, truly, it's more of a testament to the the writing of cat, well, I mean the writing and the create, like the creativity of how the show is pieced together. Because I think, you know this, she appears, and it's and I think people root for the underdog, naturally. I think people want to root for the underdog, except maybe you given the podcast name, um, we'll get there. But she comes out, and she's really sort of a sad situation. I mean, even though she's in fierce heels with fur on them, like she is a sad situation, and she's clearly hated, and that's an energy that you have not seen other than the cavity, which is more like a fear, like, but, oh, it's intriguing. We don't know what that is. She's just sad. She's broken down, she's tattered, she's, you know, you sort of think she's older, like, she's clearly had a tough life and they and I actually think that first, like, Grizabella, the glamor cat, is actually one of my favorite things musically in the show. And so I think it's not necessary for her to do much, because they think she's, she's really the saddest one of the bunch. And so, you know, memory is written so beautifully that it's such a powerful song. And it, you know, they really, truly stick to that, like, 11 O'clock Number sort of structure. And you get, like, a little teaser. So I think it was made I think doing so like such a small time on stage, or only being on stage for such a short amount of time, I think the work is sort of done for you in the sense that that the structure of the piece really sort of allows you to captivate people in a short amount of time.

[16:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. So I totally agree. I've also found it just fascinating, because you you hear about Gus, who also is Lucifer, and in 2016 Peter, and then you get to do, I think it's called Baby Grizz. So you get to essentially dance in the green eyes in the beginning. So there are all these others, like, we're gonna make the most out of everybody doing all this stuff, and it's like, but Grizzle memory is gonna be so powerful. You're gonna get the end so I have it's just such a unique thing. I just didn't think about that at all until it said to me, and then I started thinking back, going, Wow, you really are. It's 15 minutes of two hours and 45 minutes. Yeah, we'll be right back after a short break. But okay, let's talk a little bit about the other rumors of greza Bella. Now it's been in a little time. So I want to hear, I want to hear if these, if like, they resonate of the Oh, I definitely could see that. Or did I even ever think about playing it that way? Because none of them are, none of them dramatically change the plot. They just always are like, Okay, how do I how do we think about it. Okay, okay. First one is, I'll start with the easier ones that you are potentially bomb and demeanors. Mother,

[18:09] Speaker 3: Oh, interesting. I knew that. I had always known that bomb and Grizz had I always thought they were friends, like very close friends. I had not, I had not thought of that. I had not heard that rumor. That may have been, I may have still been in an earlier incarnation before that rumor had started. But okay,

[18:30] Speaker 2: so all of them are really interesting, because a lot of them are, well, first of all, they're just all made up on fan fiction. And a lot of them depend on, I think, the the way, the age of how the characters were played in certain productions. Yeah, and then the relationships of those with certain productions, because you start to as I've talked to more and more cats cast members, it's like these two people are best friends off stage, and their cats theoretically should hate each other. And so it's like they do it, but they also, you can tell that they have chemistry because they're friends. And so I do think a lot of these rumors stem from stuff like that more than actually what was the written part? Because the other one is Victoria being Chris Bell's daughter.

[19:10] Speaker 3: All right, that I could see more than I would see the bomb in Demeter bomb, I always thought, if I remember a million years ago, bomb was always like, I feel like we were always friends, and I think there was a little bit of elevated resentment and and emotion with bomb ballerina, because we were such good friends, and I left. And so there was like, there was always history. There There was history. But I guess at the time, and maybe it was just like you said an age thing, I didn't, I don't think I thought of it as, like a parental,

[19:48] Speaker 2: okay, kind of sister friend, okay? And that makes sense, but that, you know that that becomes interesting, because then everyone thinks mom and to meet our sisters? Yes, that's true. Yeah, okay. What about Macavity? Do you see a relationship there? Oh, I'm

[20:04] Speaker 3: sure they got it on at some point. Yeah, they definitely got drunk one night, and something happens, whether they talk about it or not. Yeah,

[20:12] Speaker 2: I think there's probably some like, Macavity was part of grizabell, leaving and getting into some of the problems. Oh, I mean, maybe, okay, here's the one that I made up. So you got to follow me on it. There's rumors that Buster fur and Grizz and jelly were all really good friends, okay, and that Buster and Grizz are really good friends. And then jelly, it seems like cheated with buster. So my theory and then Joey also gives up her performance opportunity to let Grizabella perform. So my theory is that she, Joey cheated on Buster, or with Buster. Buster cheated on grizzabella with jelly and jelly, then feels so bad that she, when grisabelle comes back, says, This is my apology. And so it's a love triangle.

[21:01] Speaker 3: All right, interesting, interesting. I don't know that I felt back in the day like that. I would definitely go more connection with like a Macavity, like bad boy type, whereas I think in my brain Buster for was a little, think he'd be a little safe. But maybe, I mean, hey, anything is possible. There's nothing really. There's no right or wrong.

[21:26] Speaker 2: There's no right or wrong reason. Yeah, answers to these. And I can tell you that most of these rumors that are on here, I feel like a couple of them are purely because I have uttered them on this podcast, whether there's any truth to it or not. And so I do know that that's how most of this starts. And there's a lot of also fan fiction out there. And a lot of fan fiction stems to a lot of this. Majority of it is just Tugger misto police being together, but that's

[21:52] Speaker 3: but is that in real life or just on stage? Because I think both could be true

[21:57] Speaker 2: if you if you want to get lost in a very, very dark web of stories. Just search cats fan fiction and oh my gosh, it's got to be 90% of them are about Tiger misophys together. Wow, interesting. And they are like books. When I did my most office episode I did, I said I'd read a couple of them, just not all of them or full things, but I found one that was 30 chapters. I mean, it was 50,000 words. No way. It was a book. Someone wrote a book, a full

[22:31] Speaker 2: I enjoyed it because they picked, they did not pick Grizabella as the Jellicle choice at the end. So I was like, this book is amazing. Best ending I've read in a book in a long time. Yeah, so it's out there again. This is, I mean, again, 70 plus shows in we've got, there's cats content for days. Yeah? All right, let's now change gears a little bit. Okay, let's take some of your wicked experience into the cats world, because I do find cats has been around for so long. It's fun to try to make parallels to Okay, and there's also so many cats and different personalities and characters, yes, so I have a couple, and you might be able to fill in more, because my wicked knowledge is definitely less than most people's. But which cat would you say, if you're casting a wicked character and only taking the cats. Who would you cast them as? So I want to know for Elphaba.

[23:24] Speaker 3: I mean, like, in some ways, Grizz is comparable to alphabet in the sense that she's like the outcast, you know, but, but I'm trying to think now. I'm trying to, like, think back to all the people.

[23:36] Speaker 2: I can tell you my answer, but I don't think my answer is very right. I

[23:41] Speaker 3: mean, Bahamas, like, strong, but she's also like, sort of like, cool, and what's your who's your answer?

[23:49] Speaker 2: So to me, the cats are genderless, and so I want, oh, cavity, because almost the villain ish,

[23:59] Speaker 2: That's the main point of the whole show, right? Like, that's part of the beauty of the show, is that they're there for the most part, fluid,

[24:07] Speaker 3: right? Okay, well, McCabe, I can see I was only thinking of the I

[24:11] Speaker 2: do, like Bob and Chris. I think Chris is an interesting parallel, because obvious,

[24:16] Speaker 3: because she's the outcast, she's, you know, and actually, the dynamic show wise, like as a performer of Grizz and Elphaba. I mean, granted, Elphaba is like exponentially harder, and you're certainly on stage for more than 15 minutes, but the the energy around you is very similar, where it is yet another character, where the moment you step foot on stage, nobody wants anything to do with you. So even though you're on stage and you're around people way more, Elphaba is also a lonely show at times, because you just everywhere you go, people are like, No, we're good. We're good. Thanks. We don't need you. So in some ways, they are similar, in that sense, as far as like, the vibe you get when you're when you're on stage as a performer. But my. Cavity makes sense. My cavity could be misunderstood.

[25:03] Speaker 2: What about Glinda, um, Glenda

[25:11] Speaker 3: be I mean, maybe like, Well, I think I'm just thinking because of, like her uppityness, like jelly lorm or griddle, but like griddle, bone, that combination, I

[25:20] Speaker 2: was jelly lorems was my answer. Yeah. What about the Wizard of Oz? Oh,

[25:25] Speaker 3: you know who I would say for the Wizard of Oz is, haha, Manka strap.

[25:30] Speaker 2: Okay, so I think we thought the same way, but I said Old Deuteronomy. But I think we're thinking the exact same kind of I feel like old

[25:37] Speaker 3: dudes the obvious choice. I mean, he could totally be the wizard. Surely he could be the wizard. I guess I Thought Monkey strap because he kind of, he's a little more showman, like, than old dude. Old dude kind of gives you that, like old wise, almost more like a DR Diliman, in the sense that he's like, a little bit older, wiser. I think he he sees things in a different way. And Manka strap sort of has that, like he's a little bit more of a showman, I guess,

[26:06] Speaker 2: and wants to be in charge. Okay, who am I missing? Anybody else I'm missing that we should be covering?

[26:12] Speaker 3: Um, I mean, well, there's like, I mean, there's like, fiero and Madame Morrible that, I don't know who those

[26:22] Speaker 3: this is anywhere really talking about cats and wicked, two very real, real beater, you know, experiences, so I don't know, let's pivot.

[26:34] Speaker 2: We're gonna do my rapid fire, oh God. And then we're gonna go into our argument on Grizabella, four against. Okay, so if you were not Grizabella, and you could go on one day for any cat, suspend like, if it's some somebody, you're qualified to sing, dance or whatever, just if you could just do one track one day, ignoring all I always frame it that way, because I'm not capable of doing any of this stuff. Who would you want to go on? Honest, honestly,

[27:04] Speaker 3: I don't know. I just think that's the most fun number, and it looks so exhausting. But I just, I liked that they always got into mischief, and they were just, I don't know, I think rumple teaser would be fun, or, you know, who else would be really cool. And it's just because I was so obsessed with our with her name is Jackie Steadman. She now has, like so many children, and lives in upstate New York, our syllabub. I loved her. Syllabub was so good. She was just so endearing, and she was great. So I don't know I say rumple, teaser or syllable, I would definitely be a kitten. I'd want to be a kitten. Okay, so have to be able to dance and have any sort of energy to do anything. But that's why

[27:46] Speaker 2: I always frame it that way. Because I'm like, I can't do any of this stuff. I can't sing, I can't dance, I can't, you know, I'm incapable of doing the entire stuff. And as most people are, most of us are not performers. Okay, what is your favorite and least favorite cat, character, not actor, not human.

[28:07] Speaker 2: you have to have one. Everyone's got at least one. Oh, cool.

[28:11] Speaker 3: Who would my least favorite be? Oh, I feel bad saying oh, you know what I'm gonna say. I know what I'm gonna say. I would say my least favorite. It's a duo, because they're twins. I'm gonna say Corona and tantamount, the

[28:24] Speaker 3: first of all, the twins, depending on what version you see, either exist or they don't exist. True. Yeah, so let's be honest, we can get by without the twins. That's totally okay. So I think that's my diplomatic way of choosing my least favorite.

[28:40] Speaker 2: Okay, I so the twins are so fascinating to me because they're a part of the show that I didn't know anything about. And to your point, they're not in every version. They're they're there. But then some, the more I've heard about them, and the more I've talked to people who've played them, they kind of creep me out, but also fascinate me because they're like, all knowing, and so they see, they like, anticipate the stuff before it happens. And I think that that's just wild.

[29:06] Speaker 3: Oh yeah. I guess when you think of their like, what they sing in the beginning, that makes sense. Our show didn't have the twins, so that was really me trying to not be able to call and call anyone out.

[29:17] Speaker 2: Your very political answer to not anger any of your friends. I love it. Okay, that's fair. I'm for it. My answer has always been Peter, and I feel so bad because I've met the Peter I saw both times, and I don't need to know who Peter is. Who is Peter? So Peter probably also wasn't in your production. Peter was the bus Gus track ensemble character dancing in the opening number, and they decided to name him in the show, Peter. And so that's why I dislike Peter, because I just don't understand why they picked the name. Now, I get it's in the naming of cats, so it's in the poems, but like, right, there's all these crazy names, and then you got Peter. So that bugs me. That bugs me like to no end. So that's my, that's my I had no idea. Always been it. And okay, Christopher, girl was the Peter I saw, and he was phenomenal. Alan is amazing, and I still tell him every time I've talked to him that I

[30:09] Speaker 3: favorite, favorite, favorite. My favorite cat again, and I don't know why. I really think it was Jackie Steadman. I'm gonna go syllable. I like. I don't know why I like so, yeah, you

[30:21] Speaker 2: don't have to explain why. There's no explanation in this show. I also

[30:25] Speaker 3: like Demeter. Demeter is fun. She's a little skittish, but she's learning she's sweet. She's been through

[30:31] Speaker 2: a little bit. Yeah, okay. Well, what's your favorite song from the show? Grizabella, the glamor cat. Yep, you mentioned that earlier. Okay, and it's fun, because you get to be part of it really all right, if you I was like, one fun one on this. So this is my fun one for you, having been on tour, which cat do you think would be living their best life on tour? Like, who's thriving in that environment?

[30:53] Speaker 3: Pouncival. Oh, why pouncival? I don't know. Because he just is. I feel like pouncival Probably hopped on the road. He was just out of college. He probably just came out, and he is like, living his best life, city to city, meeting people, experimenting that I think constable with his best life on tour.

[31:15] Speaker 2: That's a good that's a good answer. I always thought Tugger. I just think Tucker's like doing drugs on the bus before heading up on stage, doing his thing. Fair has his groupies all over. But

[31:25] Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that's true. I think constable gets into trouble. I like it. I hadn't thought about that one, which is possible, certainly is like has been on grinder in every city that he goes to. Okay, yeah.

[31:38] Speaker 2: So he's enjoying his time between, yes, yeah, okay, I don't disagree. Again. I love this. Anytime I have different takes. Is what makes this part fun? So let's get to the biggest take. I have argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. So I always love talking to grizzabellas, because I will emphasize, I don't want to diminish Creel as performance, I think, cat wise. I just don't believe in Grizabella as my Jellicle choice. So do you want to defend your time as Grizabella, or do you want to make an argument for a different

[32:10] Speaker 3: cat? Well, I would like to hear, what do I get to hear why you don't feel that Grizabella is worthy?

[32:17] Speaker 2: I want to, I want to make you go first. Because I believe people listening to this have heard all of my various takes, okay, and I have it's evolved over time, but I can tell you my what started this podcast, and I can tell you where I am today, but I would like to hear your take first.

[32:35] Speaker 3: I think it takes a very strong person to have lived their life, to have maybe made some wrong choices, maybe have strayed from what the correct normal, quote, unquote, normal path should have been. I think it takes a very strong person to come back with her head hung and ask for forgiveness and put herself in a vulnerable position with people, not people with animal with cats, with cats that she knows don't want her there. She knows what she is going to be met with, and she goes anyway. She She also sort of, I think at the end she, I think she's almost resigned to the fact that it isn't gonna happen. I think she, I think she, I do think it's a surprise that Victoria connects with her. And I think that's all she wants. I think her story is all she wants is human connection and or not human Damn it, is feline connection. But I think it takes a really strong person and a really special person to to come back into an environment that she knows that she is not welcome, to apologize and to ask for forgiveness. It's, you know, so, yeah, that's, that's my argument. It's because she is the bravest.

[34:05] Speaker 3: Now, I really pulled that one out of my ass. I have a lot of

[34:09] Speaker 2: experience debating this too, so it's almost an unfair advantage. How if you are Old Deuteronomy, how do you believe Old Deuteronomy makes his choice every year? I

[34:18] Speaker 3: think he makes it with who he is most moved by, and feels is most deserving. Okay,

[34:27] Speaker 3: are moved by. I also say I'm not sure where this is going moved. We all have to do our both. I think he, I think he who has proven themselves to be worthy of being reborn.

[34:41] Speaker 2: Okay, so in that criteria, your choices between Grizabella and Gus your forgiveness, ready had made some bad choices. Is Macavity or Grizabella? My My other question to you is, if you are having been Grizabella, so I'll say this having been grizzabel. But how would you have felt if you got re accepted into the tribe and got to live the next year with the tribe? I

[35:10] Speaker 2: I agree. That's I think the root of my current debate with this is, why accept her back and then immediately offer

[35:19] Speaker 3: Well, see, here's the thing, I really think that your issue is with dude, not Grizz.

[35:24] Speaker 2: Totally fine. I don't think my issues I agree with you. I don't think it's I don't think it's with Grizz as the My issue is with Grizz is the choice, not that Grizz that I don't think Grizz is deserving of being a choice eventually. So

[35:40] Speaker 3: wait, say it again. So you're saying she gets so you're saying if, okay, let

[35:45] Speaker 2: me walk you through my let me walk you through my current thought process on this, and then I can tell you how this podcast started and have everyone just fast forward, because I'm sure everyone's heard me say it almost every episode. My current thought process on this is we only are introduced to one ball we only get one night. And I am fascinated by this whole thing, because I do think it's just like a It's a weird cult. And so I'm wondering how the cult makes a decision to murder somebody every year, like in itself. That's basically the way I view this whole this whole tribe, that's our that's our rituals. We're going to sacrifice somebody every year. And with Grizabella, I don't think that was the plan, because she shows up halfway through the ritual. And so I want to know what Old Deuteronomy, how he makes the decision. Like, if I looked at last year's ball or next year's ball, the likelihood of somebody coming back isn't happening, most likely isn't happening. So how is the criteria made, and why are we making an exception this year? So if the criteria is most worthy, then I do think grizabell is in that running. But I think Gus is probably the more logical argument, if it's, you know, and you can make a bunch of different rationales of what Old Deuteronomy is going to make his decision on right now and for every year forward, or for every back. Or does he not make a consistent choice? And then I have other issues with that in itself. Why is Old Deuteronomy doing it that way? Like what's going on with this already? Again, this is where I've spent way too much time thinking about this. So that is where I think Gus is the most logical choice. He's lived his best life. He's looks like he's gonna die anyways. He doesn't look like he's gonna make it to the next ball. He gives an incredible performance. And I'd argue Grizzle would benefit from being next year's choice. I want her next year to be the choice, because she'll then get a whole year back with her family, get to spend time being kind of re brought back into the tribe, and then can go be picked the year later.

[37:37] Speaker 3: But do you think that the tribe would truly and honestly. And maybe this is why dude does pick her, because there's a difference between accepting someone when you know accepting someone and connecting with someone when you know that they're about to Peace out, you know. And if he had been like, you know what, I'm gonna hold off for a year. I want you to hang out with these people. That's a year of them like rehashing,

[38:08] Speaker 3: happened like, it's kind of like Facebook, like you. You know when some when something happens on Facebook that's like dramatic, suddenly people that you've never heard from or haven't connected with since, like, junior high school, but your Facebook friends all of a sudden it's like, oh my god, I'm thinking of you. I'm praying for you, best wishes. And then, you know, they go on with their day. But if you were like, back in their life, like, I don't know how that would go, then it'd be like, Okay, well, wait a second, she's hanging around. I want to have a conversation about why the F she left in the first place and why she didn't call me.

[38:44] Speaker 2: Okay, I like this. I hear I like Facebook. I hear I hear high school reunion or reunion college. Yeah, you're gonna come for a night. You're gonna have a great time, but then you want to go home. Yes? Okay,

[38:55] Speaker 3: so I don't know that a year back in the tribe really would have been beneficial, because

[39:00] Speaker 2: I love it. That's a different argument, but I still would go back to then in that argument, why not? Like, why does she why are we breaking the tradition? Like, how are we still deciding to give her the highest award that you can get every year that we spent two hours with people trying to say why they're worthy for it to someone that nobody really wants back in their life. If you haven't noticed, I'm seasoned at arguing this. Yes, you are, you are you are?

[39:26] Speaker 3: I mean, I think part of it too is that, like what happens when you're reborn, like what you get to start over, right? Gus has lived a life that has been beautiful. He will if he doesn't make it through the next year to be picked to be reborn. He still has had a beautiful life. He has people who adore him. He has audiences who've adored him. He has jelly Lorem she loves him. So he would have a full life, whether he's reborn or not, whereas Grizabella would die alone. And I think maybe. Maybe she's being reborn so that she can correct mistakes that she had made, whereas I think Gus really nailed it most of his life. I

[40:16] Speaker 3: way more than I have ever analyzed cats. And I thank you for this, because I I did not know that I even remembered this much about cats. And so this has been quite enlightening. I,

[40:31] Speaker 2: yeah, I feel a void. Most people don't realize that they had or needed in their life, which is a fun place to be here. I so here's I do really enjoy that you make I had not thought about how the next year would go with grizzabella. So I do think that that's a very interesting take of she might not make it through the year coming back. It's like we can handle the night, but I don't know if we can handle more than that. I kind of think I like that. I'll that's gonna make me rethink. Doesn't change my mind. This is I'm not changing the title of the podcast, but I do think that that does give me something to think about, of, can she stay for the year? I don't think

[41:07] Speaker 3: she could. I don't think she could. I think there's too much history. I think there's too much history. And I think it's one thing to see a familiar face and have that moment of like this. This was nice. I did love you at one point in my life, but like, like, a whole year, I don't know. I don't know, because what if all the rumors are true, then she's gonna have to figure out, like, you know, got two kids. Here's what we're gonna have to meet her and bomb, here's

[41:31] Speaker 2: what we're gonna do. I saw as we're recording this, because I'm not sure when it's gonna air, that Britney Spears just signed a $15 million book deal. When her book comes out, I think that'll answer our Grizabella question, because I think I do see a little some parallels there, and I do think that she had some family issues. And I'm curious, when I read her book, is she could she have spent the year with her family? I think if she's a hard No, which I think she is, then I think I'm with you on this.

[41:58] Speaker 3: You think Brittany spurs could have spent a year with her family. I mean,

[42:02] Speaker 2: that's the question of, no, I don't I think that's why I'm with you on this. But I think that that's our parallel here that we can

[42:08] Speaker 3: get. All right, all right. So we will both. We'll circle back after the book is out.

[42:12] Speaker 2: We will chat after the book. I still, again, I think that that does not change my argument for Gus or even mccavity, or my other argument, which I'll give you the short version. Everyone listening, you can fast forward a couple

[42:25] Speaker 3: minutes. Wait. Why Macavity? Can I just pause for one second? I think if you I

[42:29] Speaker 2: actually don't think the cavity is a great choice, but I think if you argue who has had a, like, a rough past and needs to be out in a different way, because, like, if that's your argument for Isabella, she had, she's done some bad things, and we're gonna accept her back. You can make that parallel to Macavity. I

[42:48] Speaker 3: don't think Grizabella did bad things to other people. I think Grizabella did bad things to herself. Okay, that's fair, whereas Macavity, I think, is a bit of a dick, definitely is the villain, even sexy Idris Elba like a bit of a dick, which I didn't make it through the whole movie. So I don't know how that went, but doesn't It doesn't get better, different. Podcast, no, maca machap, no, McCann and Grizabella. Yes, she made bad choices, but I think she made bad choices for herself. I think she made I think she had the best of intentions, and it didn't go well. Did

[43:21] Speaker 2: you think when we started this that you were going to be that passionate defending Grizabella? No, I

[43:27] Speaker 3: didn't think I was gonna remember that I played Grizabella. So this has been quite informative.

[43:35] Speaker 2: I can tell you. The other argument I've made this is, yeah, it's deep. It's really deep. When you start thinking about cats characters. The other argument I've made, and it's what started this show, is I saw Leona Lewis, who was an X factor champion, okay, as Grizabella. I about halfway through the show, thought This is the weirdest episode of X Factor I've ever seen. And so I took an X factor route. And if you take an X factor out, and it's purely just a singing competition of who's going to be the performers you enjoy most to vote on by American public or British public, I guess, depending on which X Factor you're watching. I enjoyed tuggeran misophyllies as like the I think that they have a One Direction style. I can combine them and make the most money with those two as a tour. And so that would be my champion. And so if I'm picking from that angle only, I'm picking different as much as Grizzle and memory is amazing and powerful, and it's probably the showstopper at the end, with some package about how rough the life was coming in leading into it, I still think the most famous X Factor people are the groups that got created from it, which are Fifth Harmony in one direction. And so I made a group from the show. All right.

[44:48] Speaker 3: I mean, that's fair. If you look at it from an X factor point of view, I would agree with your argument. That's

[44:55] Speaker 2: and that's how this all started. All right. Interesting is, I thought the show is. X Factor. I thought it was a weird, furry version of X Factor, and that's how I voted on it. And so that is where I made this. And we'll leave it at

[45:09] Speaker 3: that. What was your original mean? Obviously, if you were going, if that's how this started, was your original pick? Mr. Police,

[45:17] Speaker 2: I'm sending them together again. They have all the fan fiction. Oh, they're together. I'm creating. I don't want either of them individually. I want the I want to want one direction. I want, okay, Bert, Ernie and up there together, all right, so that's fair. It's a very different show, if you look at it from that way. I do want, there's a world we live in where I could see the show where everyone has a buzzer in their seat and it's voted on by the

[45:46] Speaker 3: like, The Gong Show, what have you just, like, brought it back, like The Gong Show style. And like, someone just, if they don't like your number, they just like Gong you out of

[45:53] Speaker 2: there. I'll tell you the other one I really want, and they'll never do this, because it just dramatically changes it. But you're when you're on tour, and you do what say, four nights in a city, I want you to pick a different cat every night to just be the ending. So it's like, still sing memory, do the whole show exactly the same, but have a different one. Elevate, like

[46:10] Speaker 3: Edwin Drood style, like, let the audience just at the end of the show decide who goes. But I was like, a different ending for everyone. And

[46:20] Speaker 2: don't have a don't let them go the next night. Yeah, so that's my if they ever let me

[46:25] Speaker 3: equal opportunity, you sort of want everyone to experience the heavy side layer. I

[46:31] Speaker 2: think if the show is about everyone trying to put up their performance for why they should go, and it's truly a competition of saying, and that's the through line of the show, then I'm not sure I pick Grizzle every night,

[46:42] Speaker 3: but it is interesting because there are certain numbers, and I guess I actually don't know the answer to this, there are certain characters that you really sort of associate are vying for that slot. But then there are other characters, like there's an entire number for Mungo, Jerry and rumble teaser, like they got a whole lot of life ahead of them. They don't need to be reborn just yet. So it does sort of feel like only a handful of characters like you sort of think, like Jenny, any dots, Gus, Grizz, even Mr. Police, like he's got a lot going for him. He's got like a sparkle unit, or he's very fit, like he can keep going for a while. I totally agree with you. It's just see it feels like a handful, and then the rest of it is like, like filler, like they don't completely you

[47:26] Speaker 2: need a show, and you want to make the most everything. I love sitcoms. I love storytelling, and I got none of it when I saw this show. So I needed my own through line through this. And so this is how I brought my own through line, through this

[47:41] Speaker 3: really just you trying to, like, justify the two hours and change that saying where you're like, I'm not gonna get this time back, and you're like, Oh yeah, fuck that. I

[47:53] Speaker 2: love it, because I don't. I'm the opposite of that, actually, for to me, live theater or live plays or anything that where you're getting to see something unique. I look at the same way I'm seeing sporting events, which is, you're seeing somebody incredibly talented at the top of their field doing something that you can't and even if it's the worst thing you've ever seen in your life, and this isn't cats, but there I've saw someone recently that I thoroughly did not enjoy. And the people I saw with are like, Oh my God. They were, you know, they were very adamantly about how bad it was. And I sat there going, like it was two and a half hours, like it was, like it was comically bad, almost, but it wasn't. No, you're gonna have to, I'm not saying it live. I know enough people that actually that have liked the show and other stuff, so I don't want to be too controversial, because I'm not experienced, but I know I got to see very talented people do really great performances with what I thought was really stupid songs, and so like even that, where I was like, I don't need the two and a half hours back. Like, that was entertaining. That was an entertainment value. Would I go again? Would I recommend it to somebody else? No, but I do still try to, and this show also did not have much of a story. Tried to figure out the story through it, because that's the way I like to see movies and sitcoms and rom coms or something like that. Like, I don't when I'm seeing something like that, I generally don't want to think that hard. And so I tried to add a story to cats that doesn't really exist. And I know that about myself, so I'm very aware that, like, if you want to enjoy cats, you should drink or intoxicate yourself in some capacity and just go experience it.

[49:26] Speaker 3: I still don't think my family has forgiven me for the amount of times that they

[49:32] Speaker 2: but that's that's it, and that's why, you know I'm here, and can argue in so many different angles, because I've thought about, if I was putting the through line, through this, what it would look like, and that's what shaped my thoughts. I do think that, oh, sorry, I was gonna say, I just don't think this podcast exists. If Leona Lewis wasn't the first cruza BELL I saw. Yeah, I'm very and I'm very aware of that.

[49:51] Speaker 3: Do you think TS Eliot ever really like do you think he knew what he what he started? Do you think he knew?

[49:58] Speaker 2: I don't, because I. Mean, he was long dead by the well, you know what I mean. But

[50:03] Speaker 3: like, do you think when he was writing cats, he was like, like, that. He was like, what was it? How? What was the actual title of his thing? Oh, my God, possums.

[50:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, old possum. Yeah, whatever it's, I have it somewhere behind me. No, I don't his

[50:18] Speaker 3: brain. He was like, this is gonna, this is gonna stand the test of time,

[50:22] Speaker 2: no, and I can tell you why. Is because we can bring this full circle to the way we started. Is Grizzle was like scratched on a piece of paper that they found in his estate. It's not in the book, and it's not in the book because he's quoted saying that it was too scary for children. And so I find that part as a major part of my argument for why children shouldn't she should see the show, is if the guy who wrote all the lyrics for this thought, this main character that we're centering the show around, is too scary for children, then why are your parents bringing you to the bigger garden? So that's why I would say, I don't think they thought about it. I also think that that's part of the brilliance of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Trevor Nunn and everyone who put this together. Of like, wow, you took you literally, took a book of poems that were meant for kids and created a loose story. I'll call it a loose story, but created a really, a very interesting piece of theater from it, which I know I'm incapable of doing. So that's why I'm going to nitpick what's happened on the story of that, because I would have never thought to do that. But I also, like I would have been better writing a, I've been up at theater history, but writing more of a, of a tidy story, like an a line, B, line, come together at the end. Conflict Resolution type of thing, where the first act ends with your cliffhanger of conflict, I would have never I'd be awful at writing something like cats, where it's so ambiguous. So instead, I've spent 70 episodes plus arguing about why I think it's wrong,

[51:55] Speaker 2: we are. I've talked to you and all your friends and a bunch of other grizabellas, and my goal is I have two goals. Now, I know I've accomplished one, but I can't say because I want to get them in trouble. Okay, I wanted one of my rumor mill conversations to have somebody go on stage and not change how they're performing. So that's why I think it's kind of crazy. But that get them to actually just say, I am going to play this character as this person's daughter, mother, significant other, one of those versions. And most of the people who have, I know I've influenced at least one, but they don't want to say it, because it's like, you don't want anger a director, you don't want to, like, change it, even though I think it's minor. It's like, not changing the show. It's just like, how you react at a moment. So that's one I want to go. I really want the tour to call me that's on now and just be like, let me just come consult. Let me just consult. Of all the cash, let me sit down with Cass I'm gonna tell you all kinds of stuff that they hadn't thought about. Two is as I think there's cats too, but I'm like, I can't write music. I can't

[52:57] Speaker 2: I need somebody to come through. And we're gonna rewrite the next year's ball.

[53:00] Speaker 3: All right, that I'm in, I'm in, but that's, again, I'm

[53:05] Speaker 2: not capable, like I know. I'm not like skilled to do that. These are people that have studied for this for years, and I have not, and I have not, don't have years of background of theater or any musical ability to be able to write this stuff, so I will, again, want somebody to start tackling it, and then let me consult, and they'll

[53:24] Speaker 3: let you be the consultant. All right. Well, if I hear anything, if I know of anyone who's like down for it, I'm definitely gonna put you in touch.

[53:32] Speaker 2: I do. I really think I could provide a lot of value to the current tour. Just let me come in, let me just have a few conversations, and you will have different reactions throughout the night in a good way. I think that's fair. You got to keep it fresh. So, yeah, it's only been around for 40 plus years. Well, thank you for adamantly arguing for Grizabella and making me think about a couple things I hadn't thought about. That's always a fun part of this show. And thank you for being an amazing guest.

[54:02] Speaker 2: awesome, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode. The wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com.