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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:20] Speaker 2: to

[0:30] Speaker 3: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of cats atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another very fun episode. My guest today is better known for his work outside of cats. You might know him as the baby guy NYC since he spent four and a half years as a product demonstrator and personal shopper at bye bye baby in Manhattan, he quickly became one of the most well respected experts in the baby gear and Child Safety space for more than a decade. But what you probably didn't know is that he also was in five different regional productions of cats and designed the makeup for two others so Jamie Grayson, thank you for joining me. Howdy, thanks for having me. I love always love meeting regional productions, because one of my most fascinating parts of this, this podcast, is hearing what you were told about the show going in what so we'll get there, but before we get there, always love hearing what was your experience with cats before you were first in it,

[1:22] Speaker 4: before I ever did it, when I was in junior high, I saw the tour in Little Rock Arkansas where I grew up. And I just remember losing my mind when the cats were in the audience, when you're doing like green eyes, and there was a kid behind me yelling about monkeys during the show like it was. It was very different, obviously, than any other show I'd ever seen at that point. And because I was never really trained as a dancer, I never thought I would do it. And then that quickly flipped around out of college, but I was like, I'm doing cats.

[2:06] Speaker 3: I love it. So how old were you when you first saw it in Little Rock?

[2:10] Speaker 4: I was in eighth grade. Sorry, okay, yeah, that was the year I saw cats. And blame is so it was a big formative, you know, year for me,

[2:21] Speaker 3: that's so that's the I've been I always love hearing when people go see it the first time, because I do think that's an interesting part of this. And you're seeing it in kind of the early teenage time, right? That's what eighth grade would be. Would be 1415, years old. How much of that, of the like, sexual nature of the show? Did you recognize it at that age, or was it still kind of over your head?

[2:42] Speaker 4: Oh, I absolutely, I this is shameful. So Christopher getelli, at the time, was misto police when I saw the tour. And Christopher getelli, you know, he's choreographed a ton of stuff. He choreographed Newsies. And my little closeted Arkansas heart like, had a massive crush on Chris Catelli. And so one time when I was still living in New York, Chris was at the table next to us, and a friend of mine who knew the story of me as a kid, was like, Hold, please. And like, walked over to Chris, could tell he's like, my friend Jamie, had a crush on you when he was a kid. And I was like, hahaha. Like, whatever. But I You definitely, I there was something about writhing bodies in unitards like, especially with like Tugger, because, you know, part of his costume is a little bit more pronounced than the other male cats, because they usually put a little piece inside to make the crotch protrude. But, yeah, no, it's, it's a, it's an oddly sexy kid friendly show.

[3:50] Speaker 3: Well, that's and that's where I've just struggled with that, because I don't find it kid friendly. And I know a lot of kids go see it. And the first time I saw it, I was a adult, and I was watching Victoria's dance gone, they're basically doing it on stage, and there's like, five year olds in the row behind me. And so I found it really interesting of the cutoff of, when do you go and still recognize that and be able to, like, at that teenage it's like, oh, you definitely know what's going on, but you're still kind of on the more what's the, what's the right term? It's like, still a little bit more innocent at that point where it's not realizing, Oh, the ball's an orgy. Or, I

[4:29] Speaker 4: mean, you're also, you're also, at that age, you're so unsure of really what sex is, period, that it just makes you feel something, yeah, like, it makes it makes you feel something, and you're not quite sure what that is, but there's really hot guys and tight outfits dancing, and you're like, I'm here for it. Go,

[4:56] Speaker 3: yeah, it is a confusing show for a lot of people. I. Think. And I mean, it's, it's such a unique piece in that. And I do, I just was floored when I saw that many kids in the show. And I was like, oh, it's cats. It's like, Lion King, you know, maybe it'll just be fun. And then I started watching it, and I was like, this is like, take your kids out of here, please. And then, and then green eyes, which you mentioned the beginning, scared the living daylights out of me. Oh, yeah, I can't imagine, as a child, you know, having it haunting your dreams,

[5:22] Speaker 4: I will say, when there were times like doing matinees, specifically when you're just like, dead tired, and you know, you're gonna have two of those shows in one day. And the only thing that got me in the mood for the show was doing green eyes, and you would see little kids with like, whiskers painted on their faces and like little cat ears. And you were like, Yep, go for it. And it was this weird, like, that was all of us watching cats when we were kids, like, it's what got us into theater in general a lot of the time, you know. So it was that that never with little kids like that. It never caught me as like, a weird, sexy thing. When you're in your teens, it's a little different.

[6:09] Speaker 3: Yeah. So let's fast forward to your first production. And I know you did five productions, and you also designed makeup for two. What's the order? Like? What came first and when? When did this? The first production happened.

[6:21] Speaker 4: My first production was in 2004 at a dinner theater in Ohio. And we all think it's kind of based on what last, when last five years takes place. Actually, I don't know if you know that music did not, but it's a theater in Ohio, there was definitely a buffet on stage, and they would wheel it off, you know, before the show. But sometimes there'd be like, a little piece of corn on the floor. But this theater, they actually spent a pretty large amount of money on it. They we had a huge pit, and they bought the set from Westchester Broadway, so we had, like, you know, the flying tire and the car trunk that opens, and even on the tour, the trunk doesn't open. But we had, like, a really, really solid show, but that was the first one I did, and I want to say that was about a four month run. Okay,

[7:20] Speaker 3: so you were, you're gonna have to, I'm a Midwesterner, so you gotta tell me. Where in Ohio Are you? It

[7:25] Speaker 4: was just outside of Cincinnati, in a little town called Springboro. Okay, so it was at, we affectionately call it la chlamydia, but it's la Commedia dinner theater. And, yeah, we all like lived in the cast housing behind the theater, except with except a couple people in the company. And I mean, it was that that that that particular production has a lot of stories.

[7:51] Speaker 3: That description is beef and boards for my Indiana people. Very, very much. Yeah, exact same as what you described. They roll the food out. Everyone just goes to town on a buffet before I went back. Right when they allowed people back in to see the sound of music recently, when I was back home and and it was same thing. It was like the first buffet they had, and everyone just went, went crazy.

[8:18] Speaker 3: I didn't actually after the character. I personally did not go eat because I wasn't ready for that experience. At that point. I was a little not ready for it before the COVID experience. And so you add in the COVID experience, and it's, you know, they named the food in Ohio. I love that. So wait, what do they name for COVID?

[8:39] Speaker 4: Joking, we wanted, like, we wanted, like, a Rum Tum tuna casserole and, you know, stuff like that. But it was stuff like, Jenny, any dots, buttered corn, like it

[8:49] Speaker 3: was Alan. They didn't even, they just said the name and then put it in front of one day

[8:53] Speaker 4: I'd still, I don't even eat tuna casserole, but one day I will make Rum Tum tuna. I like that.

[9:00] Speaker 3: I'm trying now. I'm trying to make me I'm gonna be thinking for the rest of today that different food names, and I'm gonna email you when we finish. Great. I'm gonna come back, like a day or two back. I here's all the cats food buffet cookbook. I'm gonna make the cats, the cats. Yeah, cats name food now. Okay, so four month run is a long time, but my favorite question for this is, and were you, I know you played skimble Shanks a lot. Were you skimble Shanks in this particular production?

[9:23] Speaker 4: I was skimble shanks and dance captain, okay, of this production, yeah.

[9:27] Speaker 3: What like? How do they tell you, in a regional production, how much of the backstory are you giving about skimble shanks?

[9:34] Speaker 4: So my director and choreographer, Stephanie Lang Bittner, she was Cassandra in the Broadway production. So she came to it knowing everything. So, like, we did the original Broadway choreography, that's all I've ever done with the show. So you do know, kind of, like the lineage of everything, even though it does kind of get filtered here and there. I. On, you learn a lot about the like relationships between the cats, and then you just kind of like, go with it and make up your own stuff and

[10:10] Speaker 3: play. Okay, so you were you given three words? Because that's like the big lure of the characters. I don't

[10:18] Speaker 4: remember if I was ever given three words. We just kind of went through everything. And then you have, like, a few days of cat class where you, like, learn how to listen with your back kid cats don't have thumbs and passive paw versus active paw versus hiss. And like, you know, there, and you just roll around on the fourth each other. And I,

[10:42] Speaker 3: I love 2000 the 2016 guests is called that felinity school, uh huh, yeah. And that was, I think, like, again, they spent weeks doing that, and they have weeks of learning how to be a cat. Is a fascinating part of this show. Yeah,

[10:57] Speaker 4: yeah. We did. We did not have that luxury. Because, typically, you know, in a regional production, you have, if you have the luxury of that, you have maybe three weeks to put it up. There were several productions I did where we would get to show up in like six days and then take it for like three and then run it for two weeks, and then, yeah,

[11:19] Speaker 3: okay, so let's walk through the other four. Where else did you go? Are they more? More dinner theaters, more like, how long were they?

[11:27] Speaker 4: I had to, actually, this morning, I went through and I had to go back and, like, Google things, because those, those, like, five or six years of my life are very blurry because I was working at different theaters, and then cats would kind of pop up here and there. So in 2004 it was in Ohio. Then in 2005 I did it at Virginia musical theater in Virginia Beach. And that was a pretty quick run, but that was, it was a really fun one. We can talk about that. There were some really fun people in it. Then in 2006 I did another around four month run at circa 21 dinner theater in the Quad Cities. And then in 2006 and 2009 I did it at West Virginia Public Theater.

[12:18] Speaker 3: Wow, so you've done it mostly east, but around the country,

[12:22] Speaker 4: yeah, from, like, Midwest, Midwest, yeah, the Claude cities east. Now, we ate a lot of Ben again, yeah,

[12:33] Speaker 3: I assume that the most of my listeners are from either the Midwest or New York, and just because I'm, you know, from the Midwest, and so I think there's going to be, you're going to find some people are going to recognize and be at home with some of that. Tell me about, like, tell me about which the like, some of the unique parts about doing it in those, like, regional productions. Like, how, how does that? How's that go? How's that differ? Like, it's just such a unique piece because you got two weeks, you got four months, you've got a lot of in and out. I know there's some characters that, just like, if there's an injury, there's not as many swings and backups and people to kind of come in.

[13:06] Speaker 4: Yeah, we never had swings. So we did it without swings and without pit singers. So because I dance, captained it, I was kind of like, you know, I remember, you know, one time Thad, who I've done the show with, many, many times he was Tugger in a production, and right after skimble shakes, one time, you know, he the stage manager, ran up to me backstage after, you like, chase off people when they steal Deuteronomy. And he was like, Jamie, Jamie, can you do Mr. Mrs. Can you do the song? And I was like, Sure, whatever. He was, like, Dad's overheated, because you get very hot and worn out in show. Oh, yeah. So typically, you know, skimbles back out on stage and whatever. And he does the light pan across and like, the cavity is not there, and then it goes back to the car, and that's where Tugger is. And then you do the whole misto police number. No one on stage knew what was happening. So one of the guys in the show got the light because he realized I wasn't there. And when the light panned up to the car, you have me still fully dressed as skimble and, like, the stupid vest and everything. And I just remember seeing everybody on stage in their cat makeup, like, ah. Like, what is happening? So, like, yeah, we never had swings, so I had to fill in for a few things every now and then. But I think one of the weirdest things doing it regionally, people as an audience member, they don't understand how hard it is. And there were times after the ball, like you're dancing for like 13 minutes in the fall, oh yeah. And you have people who are just like, and it's like, you know, we would all like, there are times you have to, like, run off and puke, or like, puke in your mouth and swallow it. Just keep going.

[14:55] Speaker 3: Yeah. I so that is such a fascinating part, because that was one thing I. Recognized as much as I made fun of it the first time I saw it, I was close enough to the stage to see the physical nature of what went into that. And I'm sitting here looking at going, this is insane, like it's insane what these people are doing. And then I learned after that on Broadway, it was a rake stage, which I didn't know what that meant until, until this podcast. But that, to me, is even more insane. Like, I'm surprised there's a lot of injuries, but I'm surprised there's not more, yeah, with how that is, and then you're in a costume, and then some of the costumes are super heavy, and you're in full makeup, and there's only a couple breaks, you're pretty much dancing most the show for most the characters. So yes, it's crazy. I want to go back to you became Tugger in scandal. Shanks, did you sing like that portion of the show and dance that part?

[15:50] Speaker 4: What happened was, you know, our misto had no problem, so misto police did the whole thing, but like, I knew every step in the show, so like I did all of the staging with mistoffelees, no problem. But I am definitely not a tenor. And I remember this was, this was a matinee, and our Grizabella parents were there. I remember this. And I mean, this was God, this is back in 2006 this was a long time ago. So Thad has a very, very good voice, like, he's got a good, like, healthy rock tenor. So at the end, he would take part of it up an octave. And at the time, I was like, I'm gonna try this. Shouldn't have and what came out of what came out of my mouth was not right, people on stage definitely were laughing. And who cares? You know, it was a real treat. The audience got something really special that day.

[16:51] Speaker 3: Well, I do think there's so much going on that, like, besides, unless you had some super fans there, most the audience is not going to know that Tugger is supposed to come out and sing that portion and come dance that portion like most, most people, yeah, especially in a regional dinner theater, I would assume probably haven't seen it before, or if they

[17:11] Speaker 4: have, like, we had a lot of cats fans. And the weird thing about this is, like, skimbles, physicality is very different than tuggers, like completely. You know he is. It's there in his name skimble. The name skimble shanks. Skimble is from skimble. Skimble, which means crazy and disjointed. So it means you have like crazy legs. So you're you hold your arms differently. You move very differently. And I had to behave as skimble doing Tugger choreography, which was a very special moment for the people. So, yeah, it was it was wrong in every sense of the word. It was wrong.

[17:52] Speaker 3: I love that. That's what I love about the lore of the shows. It's been running for 40 years. So there's just so many examples of this.

[17:59] Speaker 4: I'm pooping story now. Oh, so this was on Broadway. This was in the original product. I don't know if it was the original cast, but the original Broadway production, and, you know, Victoria's unitard is white, but it has a little bit of gray and a little bit of pink in it. But it's very, very subtle. But during the ball, when they're lifting her, you know, in the press, she had this a stomach bug. And I don't remember which Victoria it was, but apparently, coming down, she's like, I'm pooping. And they were like, what? She's like, I'm pooping. She had completely used the bathroom inside of her unitard, run off stage and Cover everything with her tail.

[18:41] Speaker 3: I have not heard that story. It's it is like I do. So it's surprising that more of that doesn't maybe it does happen, and you just don't, you don't see those or you don't experience or notice it because somebody else comes in. But I think about the so I grew up playing hockey, and I grew up playing five to six days a week. Okay, growing up, there were so many days where I was not physically in good enough shape ready to do that, like I was, like, ate the wrong thing for food, or just not feeling well. I have have a the flu or and you just kind of power through it, or you just don't play. You're doing eight shows a week, in most cases, doing this, and it's extremely physical, extremely hard, like, I'm surprised more of those things don't happen with 30 plus people in the cast that, like, somebody doesn't have a semi virus, and now, I guess with COVID, they're a little bit more tight. But like before COVID, someone didn't have a cold and just wasn't at their peak and had more trouble needing water and struggling or having a stomach bug or maybe it happens a lot more, and it's just really well masked, but I'm surprised that that's not more common.

[19:55] Speaker 4: It's rough. And I mean, you know, typically, at every production. And I was in again, we never had swings, so we had a cast of, like, 18 or 19 people. And if somebody was out, you're like, whoops, like in in the Quad Cities. I missed my first show because I hurt myself at the end of the ball, and I had to miss a week of performances. So our Bungo Jerry filled in. But it is a tricky, tricky thing when you're navigating illnesses and everything, and you don't have real understudies. Yeah,

[20:26] Speaker 3: it's like, which, which? I was talking to a couple people who did it on Royal Caribbean, where they also don't have any understudies. It's like, nope. One of the twins is going to be gone today. So it's like, who's going to just be cut out of the show to come in to do one of the more parts that's, you know, more recognize our song. What other kind of crazy moments did you have on stage? There was any other times where you had to jump in or other cats?

[20:51] Speaker 4: I mean, we had, I remember one time there was a sound issue that was really, really great during the end, when they're doing a dressing of cats and like, Dude is on the tire, you know, you have, like, Monk a strap, and then Tugger are right here. And Tugger, it was, again, he got overheated, and the sound guy didn't notice. So Tucker wasn't there. So we were like, oh, maybe he just had to, like, because it happened sometimes you have to go vomit, and he was puking over the mic, and dude is singing the song, and it's like, you've heard of several kinds of like over the things that were like, what? But luckily, luckily, everything was pretty chill. I mean, you know, the first production, several of us caught scabies from the set because the set was in storage up in Westchester and was not properly cleaned. So like, several of us got the scabies. You know, they're things happen in cats.

[22:04] Speaker 3: That's just casual, just, yeah, we got scabies. Casual scabies.

[22:08] Speaker 4: And, like, you go to the doctor and, like, because it's Ohio, and, like, it's all these gay guys, they're like, they're like, the doctors, like, open your fingers. And they're like, oh, yeah, you've got scabies. I'm writing a prescription large enough for you and your friend here. And I was like, Okay, great. At the time, I didn't think, like he thought we were sleeping together, which was not happening. We just all caught it from the bed rail or whatever, you know. But, yeah, there was the scabies. Goodness. What else do you have any

[22:42] Speaker 3: like, crazy fan interactions that like, I know there's, there are great fans for the show and but it sometimes gets a little unique with people who aren't sure what they're seeing it. Just certain things come in and they go see it because they have a season ticket, or they just go because it's something to go do. And I've definitely run into a few where I'm like, I don't think that that's what they expected. And not with cats, but with other shows where I've, I've seen people walk out and or just be floored. Like, Book of Mormon on tour has definitely caught some people in the Midwest by surprise. Yeah. Do you run into any of that? Like, Stage Door, interesting type of things, with, with, with fans.

[23:24] Speaker 4: Nothing, nothing odd. We had a lot of people that would show up in costume, you know, like full face paint and the wigs and all of it. I remember one time in Ohio I was with the when I at the time, we were dating, and we went to Kings Island, and the guy running son of the beast was like, wait a minute, y'all are in cats, right? And we were like, yeah. And he let us write it over and over and over without getting off. So it's like Perks of Being a vocal celebrity at a dinner theater

[23:56] Speaker 3: that sounds about right, that the Kings Island employee recognizes the regional production of theater. Yeah, that fits going to Kings Island, many, many times, right, too. It's

[24:10] Speaker 4: really fun. And like, apparently sounds shut down now, yeah. Well,

[24:14] Speaker 3: one they had, they had an issue. They got stuck. Oh, and so they, when it got stuck, it stopped, but the beast is still running. Okay,

[24:21] Speaker 4: yeah. I mean, I remember, you know, and again, like, I never really considered myself a dancer. I retained choreography very, very well, which is why I dance. Captained it so many times. Um, but one of the reasons I went to do it in Ohio was I was like, Oh, I can go to Cedar Point.

[24:36] Speaker 3: Nope, you're not very good. No, we did though. Oh, you did make a point. Oh, yeah, four or five hours away, still with a hike,

[24:46] Speaker 3: worth it, yeah, it's a, that's a good time. That's, that's the Cleveland I'm wondering how many people were listening to this, or I have no idea we're talking about. Yeah,

[24:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope you're having a Jellicle. All, we'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, I so now I'm curious too, a little bit about like you, obviously, you've kind of finished your run of doing this in cats, and you move on to very different things. Yeah. Do you ever bring any of your cats kind of like experience into your current work? Um,

[25:18] Speaker 4: not recently. I mean, I still have like, nightmares about the show. I a lot of us do, like, it's like, PTs, I believe it, yeah, we'll have nightmares about, oh, we're gonna mount this production in an afternoon and, like, go, we don't have any rehearsal. It's like, I have not danced in years, okay, sure. But I mean, I remember one time, like, when I lost my job and I when I first got into the baby space, and I was like, I need to figure out, like, a way to make money. I was hired to Do Face Painting at a pediatrician opening in this in New York. And so I was like, Oh yeah, I can paint faces, sure. So I go with, like, a kid of makeup. And these kids are like, Can you paint me to look like Batman? And I was like, I can do a balloon, I can do a really bad tulip, I can do a car that's really ugly, or I can give you a really good muzzle. I'm very good at cat muscles, yeah, so all the kids basically just had cat muzzles, but that's, yeah, I with my job. I don't really bring in any cats, but it is it cats has not left my life. And like, even when the movie came out, you know, I flew back to New York for opening weekend to go see it with people I've done the show with, and other people who have done the show. And I mean, Sarah Jenkins went with us. You know who you interviewed. You know, it was the most fun I've ever had at a theater in my life, because we were all at the same party, like everybody was there to understand it was, you know, a mess. And then here in Denver, you know, Alamo started doing like the rowdy cats screenings, and I never got to go to one because the COVID hit, but I hosted a party at the Alamo here for the Oscars, and I ordered a cockroach costume and got my tap shoes, and I hosted the entire thing as a tap tint and cockroach from the movie.

[27:14] Speaker 3: Did you do, I mean, and you know, some of the numbers, did you do any of the tap numbers? Did you do anything?

[27:18] Speaker 4: It was carpeted, so it was very unfortunate, but the movie choreo is so different than the show. I just was kind of there being stupid, but yeah, the thought mattered. I do

[27:31] Speaker 3: appreciate the movie. The movie's a different podcast. It sparked this podcast, but it's a different one. I'm glad that I kind of always thought it was going to have a second life as a rocker, Rocky Horror Picture Show type of, like, radiance. I love hearing that it started because that's where it deserves to be.

[27:49] Speaker 4: And, like, I can't, I mean, I saw cats three or four times at the movie theater, and one time here in Colorado, I went and, I mean, I was howling with laughter, and there's a group of, like, high school theater kids in front of me, and they of me, and they were all screaming. And at the end, there were three older women, and they were like, are you all theater people? And we were like, and they were like, we loved it. Did you like it? And I just kept walking. I couldn't even have the conversation with them, because there's something about if you have done the show. And again, cats is, it is cats, but you work so hard to do that show. It is so taxing on your body. And when you do multiple productions, and a lot of the productions I did had, you know, four or five of us that went with each one, you know. So I did hundreds of shows with the same people in very different environments. But like, you get very, very close, and you take the show itself very seriously, like, as a as, like, the core of what it is. So when you see that movie, and, like, it's not to downplay the talent in the movie. Or, like most, some, most of the talent, there was a questionable casting, but it's, you know, it's, it was not, not up to snuff with a lot of those.

[29:07] Speaker 3: It bugged me, because even the talent, I still think there's was some great dancing that I never got to see. Just moved me around so much I couldn't follow it. Yeah, but I went to a press showing and filled theater with people that are either press or tied to the show, and people were just cackling, and it's not a funny movie, no. And I realized very early, I was like, Okay, if this is like, should be a professional crowd, like, there should be a crowd that's here for a reason, and this crowd can't keep it straight. This isn't a good sign for when it actually opens, because I think I saw it on Tuesday and it was opening on that Friday. It's like, this is gonna be real bad. And then I talked to a few people who went, who are my friends, who are theater people, and they're like, Yeah, I had the theater to myself. And so that's it was a tough, tough run, tough run for

[29:57] Speaker 4: the show. The first time I saw it, the first time I saw. The theater was empty. I went with my best friend and another guy, and, like, there were maybe eight people in the theater, and we were like, just gobsmacked by the whole thing. And I was like, No, this is actually terrible. And then the next night is when I went with Sarah and a few other people, and we knew what we were getting ourselves in for. But then at the end of the Gumby number, rebels number, we hear a guy behind us go, are we supposed to clap at this? If we were like, we're here with family. And, I mean, people were standing up in the aisles and dancing, and it was, it was really something that you have to, you have to all be on the same page, going to the movie totally. And

[30:41] Speaker 3: that's why it needs to have that, like, Rowdy version, like you need to know going in that that's it. How would you describe if you were going like, not not the movie, but if you had someone that's on tour right now and someone that you know, someone who's done it all over the country multiple times, how would you tell someone who's never seen it what they're about to

[31:06] Speaker 4: walk into, ooh, turn your brain off. The score is exactly perfect for what it is like with the TS Eliot words like the music matches up perfectly, like you couldn't write the score to those poems better than he did. Does a lot of it sound like other stuff? Angela, whoever's done? Yeah, yep, the overtures, song and dance, you know. But if you can go and appreciate the dancing component of it, at least, and like the vocal stuff, don't worry about anything else. Like it is not like you're going to see next to normal or something like it is cats. It's you're watching. It's cats dancing in piles of trash. Yeah. Are

[31:57] Speaker 3: you encouraging altering their state of mine in any way, um,

[32:02] Speaker 4: it helps. I love a good whiskey ginger at the theater. I know, you know, when I, I went and saw the revival, I had a my friend, Mamie was in it for a while. You know, she was Grizz for a bit. You interviewed her. She was great. Mamie did it with me back in 2006 at West Virginia, she still did it in one breath back then. And Mamie is just one of the best people on Earth. So I went to go see her. And then when Sarah joined the company, I went to go see it again. And when Sarah joined the company, fun fact, I got her address from her husband, and because I don't remember my friends addresses, you know, whatever, I sent her a 30 pound bag of kitty litter as a congratulations guest, like, here's your here's your tiny cat. She probably loved that too. Oh, yeah, Sarah's, Sarah is a special human, that one. And, I mean, even between, like, she and I would just tell stories all the time about things like, you know, there's, do you know, the tradition like, when somebody leaves the show, they put them through the oven and do not, oh, so typically, when somebody leaves a production of Cats, they open the oven and they put them in the oven at the end of curtain call and shut it like they're cooking the cat dead. And so they're just certain things. So one of the things that we heard through the grapevine that was also done, and it may or may not be typical, but we use to pretend the tire was a litter box, and so everybody had to poop in the tire at some point. So I would always do it after I bowed. And I would, like, run up and scratch and squat and like, look, get up and cover it and like, run up on the car. But there's just stupid things like that. Like, we the revival didn't have the pirate sequence in it, you know. So I always did it with that original sequence. And so with the pirates, we would always pretend, like, one time we were like, America's Next Top Model cats, and we were, like, strutting the whole thing, like I had a hook for a hand. One time I had a ribbon dancer stick, like we would pull stuff out just to be completely stupid, because you can, like, I think a lot of people don't understand, like cats. If you are in cats, it is a really interesting acting and improv exercise, because if you ever do the same show of cats, you sucked and you should be fired. Cats should be different every time you do it, not only to keep it fresh, but it's like, you you play and like, keep it, the energy up, and it's a blast. I mean, it kind

[34:46] Speaker 3: of has to be, because there is no, there's no there's no story, there's no plot. I mean, it's loose. And so you kind of it is most about being and like, being invited into this experience with a family, and that's why you're supposed. See a different kind of almost version of that every day, because it should be a version of that day's cat, you know, their personality and how they're supposed to generally be, but you should embrace how they are that day, which is why I would like to advise on a tour or a production, because I would like to say these are the relationships and rumors that you need to be playing. So today you need to go do X. That's my, my future goal. Yeah, we played

[35:31] Speaker 4: a lot. You know, we still kept the construct of the show and, like, kept everything to the audience normal. But you know, when you're doing a show for months at a time, and you know, there's no, like, real dialog back and forth, you you have to act in different ways.

[35:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I didn't know about some of those traditions. I mean, it's interesting to cook a cat dead in a show that kills a cat every night too. Yeah,

[35:58] Speaker 4: they shoot that cat right through the roof. Bless her heart. Yeah, did you? Did you ever hear they did a production at West Chester? One of the guy that I went to college with, who worked in the costume shop, worked in costumes at West Chester, and in this production, they did not have the tire. They put Grizz on a flying rig and, like, flew her up like they did in a revival, basically, but not as good. And so she apparently was terrified to be flown so my friend Jodi from college. I mean, I haven't seen Jody since I graduated, but Jodi was they all the cats are around. Jody somehow snuck onto stage in like a second Grizabella outfit, and they flew him up, but his back was facing the audience, so that they wouldn't know it wasn't the real Grizabella, and so we jokingly called it the griscension. So when I first saw the revival, I did not know Grizabella flew off the tire, because, typically, it's like a trap that comes down, or like the thing and the, you know, the light pod. And when Mamie flew off that tire, I felt my soul leave my body. What is this? But I'm here for it,

[37:17] Speaker 3: you know? So, so wait, somebody was so they were so afraid of being flown up that they had somebody else sneak on from the costume shop, yeah, to go and every night be flown up. And what they just, like, ducked out, quickly scurried

[37:32] Speaker 4: away. Wow, I

[37:37] Speaker 3: love that. It's like, Here, here's somebody that kudos to that person too. It's like your singing is probably that good that we want you still, even though you won't do one of the most important parts of your 15 minutes on stage that's

[37:59] Speaker 3: all the way to their next Jelka life. Well, let's pivot to that. Let's go into some rapid fire, and then we'll talk about the griscension, and if that should be happening every night. So if you were not skimble, and you could play any cat one time, do a track, who would you want to do for one night? Gus. Gus, yeah, with the pirates. I

[38:20] Speaker 4: don't know if the pirates are really necessary, okay, but Gus is as an actor, like, that's the character like we all eventually turn into, is like an old actor that tells stories. And I, I was one of the weird people that always liked the GUS number, and not that I have the desire to go do cats at this current moment in my life, but if I ever had to do it again, I would love to do

[38:46] Speaker 3: Gus. That's yeah. That's yeah. You're pretty

[38:49] Speaker 4: old to do scandal anymore. I can't. I can't. I'm 43,

[38:53] Speaker 3: years old. Are you ready to do lust of fur with it, though, because that's the lust of

[38:58] Speaker 4: her, yeah. Yeah. But like Gus is okay, the greatest. What about your favorite song in the show? My favorite song is absolutely skimble. Skimball. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And same in the movie. I think skimbles the best number of the movie, too. But yeah, skimble is skimbles fun. Okay, who

[39:23] Speaker 4: my least favorite cat. I mean, honestly, Manka strap is just really boring. To be honest. It's like, okay, like, good Manka strap is great, but no, you're, there's, I have no need. And I think, like, my favorite, I mean, it's Jenny Annie Dotson, skimble. They're like the lesbian aunt and the gay uncle of the company. Like, love it. Yeah.

[40:01] Speaker 3: As someone who is a baby expert, which cat do you think would be the best with a newborn, and which cat do you think would be the worst with a newborn?

[40:12] Speaker 4: I mean, this is, this is my cavity. Would not be great with an infant. I feel the cavity would have some problems. But I also, like, wouldn't trust bomb either. Bomb would not be the greatest, um, I think in terms of being a good mother, it's Jenny.

[40:31] Speaker 3: That's That was the one, the one I was trying to think about is like, was there any in the teenage years, like a Victoria or Cassandra, that like that might be able to be like the fun older sister to,

[40:48] Speaker 4: Oh, I definitely think like Cassandra would be the fun older sister. Yeah, she, she and, like, I think demeters a little too chaotic, you know, she's a little, she's a little frazzled. She's been through a lot. I mean, there's the cat rape, you know, we need it. But she, I wouldn't trust her with a kid either. Yeah, okay, Cassandra. Cassandra, to me, would almost be like Elizabeth shoe in the original adventures in babysitting. She'd be like, the fun when taking the kid down. And then Demeter would be like, Penelope and Miller.

[41:23] Speaker 3: Brenda, yeah, I'm following you here. I do agree. I did think a lot about this, because anytime I put these questions up, I do spend way more time than I would like to admit thinking

[41:35] Speaker 3: I most people Me neither. I never thought I'd have any of these discussions in my life. Okay, so now the million dollar question, I have argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right job for choice. So I want to know if you're defending Grizz, or if you would like to send somebody else to the heavyset layer.

[41:52] Speaker 4: I would like to defend Grizz, but it's not her time yet.

[41:59] Speaker 4: let Gus go, the poor old thing. Like, let get him out of here. Let him rest. Let him like, come back as another cat. Let him be a little kitten. Grizz. Like, if they if at the end of this show, if we want to break it down to like, if this plot really matters, she's supposed to be accepted and redeemed at the end of this show, so why do they just kill her?

[42:25] Speaker 3: That is my like, current like question. As you know, as I've gone through this and talked to more people, you can buy me on the redemption story, but I'm with you of theirs. Like, why do you redeem and then immediately, like, give her a year.

[42:41] Speaker 4: Yeah, she doesn't need to be euthanized. There's nothing wrong with her. Yeah,

[42:45] Speaker 3: let her be back with her family. Gosh, enjoy the time I'm with you. I don't think I have a lot of arguments here. I think this is, this is where my current serious stance on who should be picked is, is that right there, bring her back, bring her back to the family, and let's send Gus. Or I still really curious is, when does Old Deuteronomy time?

[43:08] Speaker 4: Yeah. Do you know who's supposed to replace him? Supposed to be monkey strap, right? Yeah. Do you know? Why? Do you know what your visual cue is as to why it's monkey strap replacing him as an audience member? No. And typically in the staging, you have dude up on the tire, and then second in height on the set is Monkey strap, and then Tugger is here, because they're both dude sons, yeah, so monk is the next in command.

[43:42] Speaker 3: things now shows, William, William, William, William, William, um.

[43:45] Speaker 4: There are things in the show. Like, I remember the first time I did it, like even having to do with the tails, like, there are things an audience would never pick up on. And like, everybody's tails are kind of Womp womp hair, but mistoolies and Cassandra have braided tails, and their tails are braided because they are purebred and they have magical powers.

[44:08] Speaker 3: Okay, I don't think I knew that one. I mean the one, the one that really surprised me, because I just didn't know much about the twins. But the twins are telepathic, and they they have, they will sense stuff before it happens. So if you watch them, if somebody comes out, they'll turn to that part of the stage before it happens. And that's like wild to me. Yeah,

[44:31] Speaker 4: Cassandra also has psychic powers, but we never did it with the twins. We never had the

[44:37] Speaker 3: twins are an easy cut when you're light on cast. And so I liked it. I didn't know about the tails. I knew about the collars. That's the other one. Is the collars are the ones that have homes, potentially, or owners, yeah, which is like the, I forget there's, there's five, I think, with collars. But, yeah, that's a new one. I gotta see if that's on the if that's even on the crazy fan site.

[44:58] Speaker 4: I haven't even looked. To see if that's on there, I need to get out on there. And I think that, I mean, that was something that was again, because my director, choreographer, like she played Cassandra, so she was very aware of this. But the the last time I performed in cats, I designed the makeup and helped with the wigs. And then after that, I also did another production where I just design makeup. But, yeah, it's a whole it's a whole thing cats and, well,

[45:28] Speaker 3: I'm sure we could talk for five more hours on it. But how can people stay in touch with what you're doing now? And maybe even, I don't know if you post, you should post somebody to these old clips. I'm sure you have somewhere hanging out from, from the 2000s in Ohio. I

[45:43] Speaker 4: have, I have an Ohio DVD. I have the West Virginia Public where I did it with Mamie. I also have the one I wish I had photos of, though was Virginia music theater, because this one, there were two, maybe three, kids from the Governor's School of the Arts in Virginia that were in the company, and it was Adrian Warren and Grant Gustin, who's the flash. So, like, they were 16 years old doing the show with us. And like, I had to teach them the show. And like, they're both incredible and but now it's like, you look at that, and it's like, I knew from the beginning, like Adrian is a star, you know, that it's been really fun to, like watch their, like, career trajectory, and like a few other people that I did the show with, but I wish, I wish I had the Virginia music theater production. Wow.

[46:39] Speaker 3: Hopefully Hopefully you can post some stuff here and show the world the early regional version, the king, that person at Kings Island. It's gonna be thrilled. You know what?

[46:49] Speaker 4: I might admit here for the first time publicly. I some of my friends know this, and like, whenever I do a show, I tell people in the cast. But are you aware on YouTube, there's a clip called Mr. Messed off.

[47:03] Speaker 3: I am very aware. Do you know him? Because I've been, I have been working hard to get in touch with him. I'm the one who

[47:10] Speaker 4: put that on YouTube. You are the one who put it on YouTube. I was not in that production, but I do have that entire production on DVD. Um, I have, I it is something I know who that is, because he was an emergency cast member in Ohio, so he was basically

[47:33] Speaker 3: like a dance so I I don't want to, I don't want out all the stuff, because I've figured out which theater it was as well. And I figured and I reached out to them, and they did not respond to me, asking for the cast list and all this stuff. And I I was told, what I was told, from my research of this was that this person is knew the day, like knew the choreography, knew the dance, but wasn't actually in the show. And it was a very emergency day where somebody, like, either went out midway through the show or, like it was a very last second, yeah, and it was like, I'm not really capable of doing it, but I know the number, and so I can at least go out there and not and get through it. But he owned it, like he went out. Like, I

[48:19] Speaker 4: never you just completely mock someone's talent. But what I will say is he had a video of our production in Ohio. He choreographed that production. And so or the production that this clip is from on YouTube, he choreographed that show. So good for him for going in like, I will never mock anything. Is it hysterical? Absolutely, yes. But when things like that happen, you have to embrace the absurdity of it. You know,

[48:50] Speaker 3: I hope that he's like, I don't feel like anyone's making fun of him, because I feel like he knew I can't do any of it. So it's like, it's I can't criticize neither. I can't criticize any of these people. I can't I can't dance or sing or do, like, even sniff these, these, uh, these dance numbers. And so I love that he went out there and just was like, This is what you're gonna get, because I'm still the best choice right now. I

[49:13] Speaker 4: mean, that is exactly how I would feel if somebody had the clip of when I had to do Mr. Most awfully use his Tugger shanks. Yeah? Like, if somebody had that into it online, it'd be like, yeah, own it. I own it. That is me. I messed up. It is hideous, yeah, like, great. We love it.

[49:28] Speaker 3: Um, I was, I still wanted, he's, he is my he's in my top five people. I want to interview really, yes, for the show. So if we, if we might be talking once, once we hang up on this recording here. Okay, so, yeah, that's my fault. I, I love it. I It's, it was in 2000 I think six or eight. It was early, early 2000s it was West. Is what I'll say. It was west of. Uh, the theater was in the more West Coast than it was east coast.

[50:05] Speaker 4: Oh, maybe I'm wrong. No, no, no, it was in Jersey.

[50:08] Speaker 3: Oh, I've got some different I reached out to a different theater. No, this was jersey. Okay, one hour I had it in a West Coast city. No, so

[50:19] Speaker 4: this just, here's some more interesting on this one. So there is, there's another cast member in the show who played the role of brown cat. And brown cat has, brown cat is not a role brown cat, you know, whatever. But my boyfriend at the time was doing a production of Fiddler in Hilton Head, and he called me, and he's like Jamie when you come visit. We have a DVD. I have to show you brown that this, this girl is in this production, this weird production of Cats, a friend of mine has on DVD. So when I went down to go visit Paul, I was watching it, I was like, Wait a minute. I know this guy. He was in the first production of Cats I did. And then the most awfully number happened. And everything, everything in my body collapsed, because I was just like, what is happening? But brown cat is Jenny Annie dots. She did the Jenny any dots track, but they did not do the Gumby number because he didn't know how to set it. So it goes, it goes straight from like, Who could it be? To Tugger. They cut the entire thing out so there's no Ginny, any dots. It's just brown cat. The brown cat, you know, when he pulls the ribbon out, gets caught in it. Yeah, she's the one who catches the the tea cup that he pulls the scarf out of that's brown cat, brown and brown cat, the girl that plays brown cat was famous on YouTube for other reasons. We don't need to go into but that's what we were fascinated about.

[51:51] Speaker 3: Okay, I need, I clearly admire the research I found was incorrect. I was pointed in a different direction by some other people, yeah,

[52:01] Speaker 4: it's, it was Phoenix productions in Jersey.

[52:05] Speaker 3: Got it? Okay? I Yeah, well, one day, that's I, that's up there. The other one I really want is, I want to talk to a street Tugger, the one that the rapping. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's my other one. So I'm just putting this out there for the universe. Yeah, of people who might know street tuggers or that might be interested in coming on to talk about the experience of that version of Tugger. Well,

[52:32] Speaker 4: I do know, because I'm new to the land of tick tock. One of the guys who did cats in Australia just popped up in my like for you, and he was the rapping, like, street Tugger. It's a street Tugger. Yeah, they kept street Tugger. And

[52:47] Speaker 3: I knew that, but I Okay, I got some people to reach out to,

[52:53] Speaker 4: and like, No. And the thing is, he was also white, it but, and they kept, like the dreads and braids on him as like street hugger. So it's a little strange, to be honest. It

[53:07] Speaker 3: was, it was a strange decision from day one, but again, 40 years worth of the show, you know, you guess you occasionally throw some some out there that don't work. But okay, how can people stay in touch with you. On

[53:22] Speaker 4: Instagram, I'm just the Jamie Grayson. If you, for some reason, have questions about car seats or something, and on Facebook, it's just Jamie Grayson. But you know, I don't. And

[53:33] Speaker 3: tick tock, Jamie Grayson on Jamie Grayson, easy enough. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being a amazing guest. This was a ton of fun. I loved learning about all these new things I didn't know you taught me a lot. I feel like you you should be hosting this. I

[53:50] Speaker 4: will, like, when Anne, I mean, I will assume by the time this airs and yes, and texted me, and she's like, do you know this podcast? I was like, yeah. I said, Listen to several episodes, of course, and she's like, I think you need to be interviewed because your head is full of garbage. And I was like, yes, then, because, again, like, I could, this could be hours of discussion.

[54:11] Speaker 3: That's what this is here for. Maybe we'll have a part two. We'll

[54:16] Speaker 4: have, we should, we should do a follow up round table with like, three or four of us.

[54:20] Speaker 3: I would love that. I would absolutely love that to have a handful of people that did it in various parts, and how I did that with a regional

[54:31] Speaker 4: get a tour, cat like and get Sarah, get like, a broad spectrum of, yeah, I did.

[54:39] Speaker 3: I did a big an event for with the eight, like the tour three, so the 80s cast, okay? And so I've done, I've done a couple, you know, bigger groups. So I think we've got, we've got a future here. We're gonna put this in the work. We're gonna put all this out into the world, and the the Jellicle world will come back to us. Yeah, do. Slight

[55:01] Speaker 3: reborn remorn, every every night, eight times. Alan, well, thank you again, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Ron. Cat died, the podcast breakdown, the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to the podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram, at the Rock cat died. Or check out our website, the rock cat died.com. You.