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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. I welcome to

[0:30] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown the cast atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He just finished his run as the Rum Tum Tugger on the US national tour, six of cats, which is currently performing right now on tour. So welcome Zach, Bravo and thank you for joining me. Hey, Mike, how's it going? Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have you. Tuggers are always fun, because it's such a character, personality with a lot of fun in the show. But before we get into Tugger, and your experience at Tugger, I always love hearing about your experience with the show before being cast in it. So were you one of the people that the 1998 VHS on replay? Did you know it well? Like, what was your experience?

[1:09] Speaker 3: Well, I didn't really hear about cats until I was about, like, like, eight, nine, maybe 10 years old. Had no idea about it until a family friend of mine who lived around the area was like, really big into just Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals, but one of her favorites was cats. And she had the tape, and she she let me borrow it one one day, and she told me, watch this. You're gonna play Rum Tum Tugger one day. Yeah. So destined

[1:39] Mike Abrams: from a Destin, from eight years old to be, to be this.

[1:43] Speaker 3: And, you know, I grew up as a, as a, as a dancer. So, like, and the only boy dancer in my studio, so, like, I was, I was always just, like, out there, just like, doing all this crazy stuff. So, so my, my family friend Sharon, is her name. She was like, yeah, no, you should watch this, because I feel like it would be really great as this when you're older. And I watched it at that age, and of course, I didn't really know what was going on so, but I just took it as is. But I, of course, once I saw the ROM Tum Tugger come out, I was like, Oh yeah, that's me. I'm like, Yeah,

[2:18] Mike Abrams: wow, okay, yeah, that's it. So that's so that's super interesting, because I think it's like, I've talked to a couple tuggers in the past, where it's like, that is not at all their personality, and that's kind of fun of the the acting. And here you are saying, like, I knew that was destined from from eight years old on, that this was going to be my future. Yeah, yeah, kind of Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so you saw it on the VHS. You You now know that you're going to be a Tugger when you grow up. When was the first time did you see it on stage before you performed? I

[2:46] Speaker 3: did. I did so as as if a lot of people don't know this, the our version of this tour is the revival back from 2016 and that was my first time ever seeing cats live. And I believe I was, I believe I was either, I think I was a sophomore in college that I got tickets to go see it and and I was just blown away, really, like, I was in tears. I was, I was just like, really moved by, like, the score and the dancing and, you know, growing up with the with a big dance background, I was just, like, incredibly moved and and again, like, at that time, I was trying so hard to just, like, understand it. But, you know, when it comes to watching a show like cats, it's, it's very much like you take it how you want to take it. There, there, there is, like, no rhyme or reason. And I feel like that was Andrew Lloyd Webber's goal with it was to just be like, This is what I have to present. Take it. Take it out as you will. And and, you know, I left, I left that theater, like, just being very inspired. And, of course, when I did see Tugger go on, Tyler Haynes, or it might have been Sam lips, either Tyler Haynes or Sam lips that went on for Tugger. I left that theater just being very inspired and looking forward to my future in my musical theater career.

[4:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so, okay, so you're in college, and you are basically studying to be in musical theater like you're, you're at this time, trying to, like, that's going to be your future career. When was it early in the run? Do you remember when you saw it like, did you see Leona Lewis or Mamie Paris? No, I saw Leona Lewis. Okay, so you saw it early. So probably was Tyler, unless he was, he was off that day because he would have been in the early run. Yeah, yeah. Could have been okay, that's okay. So you see it in soft, so basically you see the VHS as an eight year old and you see it as a an adult. Did you have any kind of, like, Aha moments as the stage production of like, oh, this is a lot different than what eight year old me recognized?

[4:53] Speaker 3: No, I kind of just felt the same. If anything, it was nostalgic, of course. Like the revival and and and Jillian Lynn's version of cats is is extreme, not extremely different, but they have their differences. It still tells the same story, but I still, for me, I definitely felt the same way that I felt when I first saw it.

[5:16] Mike Abrams: Okay, so there's not any the like the overly aggressive sexual nature of the show that hits you as an adult,

[5:24] Speaker 3: that goes over your head as an eight year old, kind of, yeah, okay. I was very apart. It was, it was like, very like, normal for me. I was like, okay, yeah. Like, this is what it is. I always

[5:35] Mike Abrams: find that part kind of fascinating, because it's like, there is, I think eight year old you sees a different version than adult you in that show, because I think some of those things are like, Oh, that is clearly more sexual than I probably would have thought. Or that is, like, very much a coming of age dance, you know, like stuff like that. I don't think most kids are gonna or help. Most kids aren't recognizing I don't think kids should see the show for that reason. But no,

[6:00] Speaker 3: I mean, at least for me, because, like, again, like, when I watch, when I watched John Partridge's Tucker, I just saw, like, a lot of shimmying and shaking and hip thrust, and that's basically kind of, kind of what I did when I was doing dance recitals. So I was like, it was, it wasn't like, not normal for me. So, so then so again, to circle back, like, I didn't really feel any like sort of difference. It was more so like a nostalgic feeling, like I understand that there are, like, you know, certain sexual themes within the show that are left, like, for some of the cats, like, it's, it's coming of age, and others are it just like, they just, like, like, ooze with Ross, totally. Okay,

[6:44] Mike Abrams: so now you get, you get cast. Your destiny is fulfilled as Tucker, what are you told about, like, the back story? Like, I always love hearing how you are given the history of cats, or the story of cats. It's like, what were you told about the story? And what were you told about

[7:00] Speaker 3: Tucker? Oh, man, well, I remember at first when we when we were rehearsing and learning the show, it was strictly just learning the skeletons of the of the production, and we were waiting for Chrissy Cartwright to come and visit us so she could tell, respectively, tell us what cats is and that. And we were pretty knee deep into rehearsals, like we learned the show, like, in about, like two, three weeks. Then then Chrissy Cartwright came around, like the second, the second week, and we had, like a sort of, like a boot camp, essentially, of just like, you know, learning how to be in our bodies as cats and sensing everything. But as far as what, what the story is, I can remember, because it was just I it was just so much information to just take in a span of three weeks. You know what I mean. But from what I can remember, it like I just remember her telling us that cats is about redemption and family and acceptance, and that we are a tribe. That was a one thing that I remember being told is that we are a tribe. And, you know, with a tribe, that means, you know, we're a family, and you know, and family goes through every single thing, or like, we're not always a happy family. We can, we can also be a sad family. We could also be a very upset family. But and we also, like, I think what's also really great is that we, we have so many different cats that have different personalities, that have different thought processes, and that shows, that really does show when you see it on stage. And I, and I certainly felt that every night doing, doing the show. Now as Tugger, I remember, I remember Chrissy was going through every single cat. And because, you know, we're getting ready. The The thing is that we're getting ready for the jelica ball, and we're waiting for old dudes to come and have him decide who is the next to go to the heavy side layer. So with that, so that we can have a new Jellicle, if you know the spiel and and so Chrissy goes, goes through every single cat and tells us, like, who would be a good candidate. And then when she got to Tugger, she immediately said, Tugger is not a candidate. And she straight up said, Tugger is not a candidate. He does not like he could not be bothered with it at all. And and that got my like creative juices, thinking. I was like, okay, so if he doesn't, if he's not a candidate, then it just gives all the more reason why he just wants to have a party all the time. And and, you know, and that's why he enters, the way that he enters is because, I mean, he says it in his song, like he there's nothing that he enjoys more than a horrible muddle. He loves the mischief. So it's like, all right, like, if I'm not going anywhere, I might as well just do something. Here? Yeah,

[10:01] Mike Abrams: I love it. So you Okay? So you're basically told right up front, hey, I'm not even in the running. I'm just here to cause some wreak havoc and have some fun. Yeah, and so, and you kind of have the one, I think, really one of the only roles where you get a little bit of freedom, like, because you have some flexibility to kind of go a little off script, because that's kind of the character. So like, did you get to play with that every night?

[10:23] Speaker 3: I did. I did even, even during rehearsal. This is, this is actually really a fun thing that I will never forget. There was one part that I improvised. It wasn't necessarily like a line change or anything, but it was just something that I had just ad libbed, really. And I remember we were doing notes after our run, Chrissy. Chrissy said, Don't ad lib you cannot compete with dia with TS Eliot. And I was like, noted, noted, yeah, so, so that also gave me an idea as to be like, Okay, so, like, you know, again, I didn't go, like, way off script. It was just more like a, like, a small little ad lib. But that detail can change a whole lot. And I was like, Okay, so like, I know what to do and what not to do. So that's, that's a fun little tidbit of fun fact that I have with that, um, but as far as, like, you know, then doing the show and getting used to the body of Tugger, I started to take a little bit more liberty with with how he reacts with the cats and how he reacts with the audience. A theory of mine is that, you know, well, it's, it's actually pretty straightforward, really, that as soon as the show starts, you know, we got the orbiter happening, and then, you know, the cats come out, and we see the audience, so we know that they're there because they're in our space. So we're like, why are you guys in our space? It doesn't seem to be like, are you just like, passing through? Oh, you're, you're, you're here to stay. Okay, well, you guys don't look smart enough to be around us, so we're going to tell you how great we are, and we do that for two and a half hours.

[12:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so then, because, yeah, because you don't get to do green eyes, right? Because, because you don't like, because COVID, they didn't let you in the audience. But that's kind of generally how the show starts. Yeah, that's, that was my experience, is there you're as a cat in the crowd with that exact thing, like, Oh, you're here. I'm gonna get right in your face, like, show you that you're in my space, yeah, and then go and kind of tell us the story.

[12:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of restrictions due to COVID, so we weren't able to go out to the audience as much, or at all, really, but we kept the intensity of of knowing that the audience is there and we could look at them because they're in our space. And so for Tugger, I, I, I felt like I just knew what to do. Tugger is definitely the type of cat where he is just so, so preening that like, he'll just, like, he's that type of cat where, like, he'll go up to you and just like, like, rub against your leg and look right at you. Be like, I'm cute, right? Like you, like me, you know very much like that, um, and, and he does that for five minutes straight in his number, um, but, but, yes, I'm sorry so for, for Tugger. Um, he, since he knows that the audience is there, he's out there to show them. Like, I see you guys. I know I see you. See me, see you like, I know you're here, and I know that you think I'm pretty. So let me shimmy for you a little bit, you know. So it plays it up for the craft, yes, oh my gosh. Like I for me. Like, I just try to ham it up as possible, because it's the only time to really, really that those five minutes are really to show who he is as a as a cat, I almost had a person, yeah.

[13:56] Mike Abrams: Did you like, it's such a rock number, minus the couple years they made it a rap number, did you like build off of any rock influences? Yes, yeah,

[14:06] Speaker 3: a whole lot. I obviously that was also another thing. Like, there was a lot of talk, talks with between my musical director and the conductor, and also people from rug. They were telling me how, like, you know, because he he was, he's changed a whole lot as far as the sound is concerned. And back in 81 you know, he was highly influenced by Elvis Presley. And then, you know, when it came to Broadway, like it was more like Mick Jagger. Elvis was still kind of there, but Mick Jagger. And then years down the line, especially towards the revival, there were talks of, like, you know, of more pop stars, like, like Prince and Bruno Mars and all that stuff. So, so there was a lot of influence there to, like, kind of like, figure out, okay, what is his voice now? And for me, with the influences that i. I looked through, for me, it was more so like Metallica a little bit, okay. I like that very, like, very, like James Hetfield, because I love, I love the way that he sings and and he always throws in like a, like a, yeah, in his singing. And for me, I kind of threw that in there, on on, like, the, like, the occasional riffs in the, in the song, so, so that. So I inspired a lot from Metallica to, like, just get into it. I love Metallica, actually, other other other bands. I can't really, I can't really think off the top of my head, but Metallica was definitely one of the influences for me,

[15:44] Mike Abrams: nice. I think that's great. And, I mean, I think your song is so it's a very memorable number, because it kind of comes, like, right at you. It's like, very in your face, and it's, you know, it's a very sexual and, like, a lot of, like, hip thrusting and all kinds of stuff there

[16:02] Speaker 3: being on tour, where you're not in the same city every night, and you're kind of moving around. Like, did you feel that reaction, like, in different places? Like, I do think there are some cats in numbers that are like, okay, these are going to be like, these are the memorable ones that everyone's going to like, come after the show and see at the stage door and be like, oh, there's your Tugger. Like, did you have, like, any, any kind of, like, fun interactions with crowds after, with the numbers, so, like, so, kind of, like, rock heavy. I did. I did, actually, I didn't realize, like, how, even before get going into this tour, like, I didn't realize, like, how strong the cats fandom is, they are powerful. Oh my gosh. Like, it's a, it's an incredible, it's, it's incredible, like, it's a, it's, it's an entirely different beast, really. So, you know, it also a little overwhelming, because, like, you know, it's, it's cats, you know, and people. And there's a huge amount of people that really love cats, and I love that so much for them. But, but, yeah, no, like, after, after the shows, when we were allowed to or, or people were by the stage door, they would, they would kind of pick me out and and see, you know me also, like, I, I am very much into, like, promoting and a lot of content creating. I did a lot of that on my tick tock, which was kind of blew up my account from doing from doing cats, and, you know, I would get a lot of comments on my videos being like, Hey, I'm gonna see you at this theater. Can't wait to see you there, or I'll be waiting at stage door here. Also, like, a lot of just DMS on my Instagram as well. It was, it was very, like, awesome, scary, but awesome, because I was gonna be, like, meeting a bunch of knowing that there's a bunch of people there to see me, you know. And, of course, no, sorry, not just, not just me, but to see cats, you know. Totally, yeah, I totally get what you're saying. I was actually gonna ask you about that, because I saw that you I mean, like, I actually got sent a couple I the fan base is powerful, as you said, very passionate. So I got sent a lot of your tik toks early on. Oh, really, right, when your tour had started. And I loved it. I thought was super fun. So, you know, was this something where you, you know, you saw this great vehicle, and was like, All right, I'm going to be in these cool costumes. I'm gonna have this opportunity, and it's gonna be great content. Like, how did you kind of start with that? Did it just come naturally, or was there, like, a lot of thought of, like, all right, this is gonna be perfect for Tiktok. It kind of just happened. Really, I was already pretty big with, like, you know, just making niche content for Tiktok before, before Tiktok Tugger talk, as some people call it, I was very much into doing Star Wars Tiktok, because I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I love Darth Maul. That was my niche at the time. Like I would do a lot of, like memes, and because I wanted to put myself out there as, like a voice actor. I I practice a lot of Darth Maul voice from, like, the clone wars and all that stuff. And people got a kick out of that. So, like, I already had a sort of like fan base doing that. And then once I told people that, like, oh, like, I am going on tour as a cat, everyone just went gung ho. And they were like, yes, we are here for it. So, so it kind of came naturally for me, just like making more content in a as as Rum Tum

[19:29] Mike Abrams: Tugger. Love it. Okay, so we're now going to do the crossover you never expected to happen today. Oh, what's up? We're going to figure out which Star Wars characters

[19:39] Speaker 3: would be which cat? Yes, okay, cool. I'm ready for this. Okay, yes, so let's start with, let's start with Luke Skywalker. Luke Skywalker, oh, man, um, I feel Luke Skywalker would be Plato. Plato,

[19:54] Mike Abrams: okay, younger kind of figuring stuff out. Mm, hmm. And like, what? What else? What's the other? What are the other thoughts there? Well, I'm

[20:03] Speaker 3: thinking, I'm thinking like Luke Skywalker from A New Hope, like he's, like, he's very young, and, you know, just like, very, very hopeful. And, you know, growing up, coming of age, and that's very similar to Plato, especially how we see his relationship with Victoria, you know, and he seems to be, like, I feel like Plato is, like, one of the, one of the kittens that is just growing up, just a little bit. He's going, he's going through that awkward phase, like, you know, like he's trying to grow out his hair a bit more. And it's like, weird, you know, like, very, like, very like, adolescent, pretty much, like, I love it. Walker. What about Han Solo? Han Solo? Well, he's a smuggler, right? And there are plenty of talks from, from, from people asking me if Tugger would be a Jedi or a Sith. And I think he's a smuggler, so I think Tugger would be Han Solo, really. Okay, yeah,

[20:57] Speaker 4: I love it. What about

[21:02] Speaker 3: Kylo? Ren. Kylo Ren, Hmm, oh, that's easy. That's Macavity.

[21:07] Mike Abrams: Is that Macavity, or is that Darth Vader, though, Hmm,

[21:13] Speaker 3: no, I don't think it's Darth Vader, because with Kylo Ren, it's, it's very with Darth Vader. Darth Vader was like, you know, he went through all that stages, like Anakin went through all the stages to become what he what he becomes. Whereas, you know, Kylo Ren is angst and he is jealousy, and that is actually one of the words that describes Macavity. One of the three words is jealous. And I just see that with Kylo

[21:43] Mike Abrams: Ren more. So okay, I like it. So who would you have as Darth, Vader, then,

[21:47] Speaker 3: man, well, well, there isn't any other villains. With, yeah, with, with the with a cat. Well, actually, let me think about this. Let me think, oh, man, this is probably the part where you're gonna have to cut the like, the period, the pause period the pause period over here. Because I really, I'm really thinking about this. Who do you think? Do you have one in mind? Or you thought mccavity? I

[22:07] Mike Abrams: thought it was Macavity. I think. Who's the henchman? I don't even know if it's in your production. There's a henchman in the pirate scene that's also supposed to be like, kind of the bad guy. Oh yeah. No, we don't, we don't growl. Tiger, crowd, Tiger. Maybe I kind of thought I would have had Kylo Ren as Mongo Jerry and Darth Vader as Macavity and but maybe that's just kind of the age version of that. Oh,

[22:29] Speaker 3: that's partly true. Well, like, I don't, like, that's the thing. Like, I don't see Mungo Jerry as as a very like, angry cat, sure. Like, he's a, he's a little mischievous, but, yeah, but he doesn't go off to other planets, killing other people. You know what? I mean, totally just out of, like, pure rage, like,

[22:48] Mike Abrams: well, there's not enough, there's not enough villains and cats. That's That's true. That's true. Darth, Vader can be Grizabella.

[22:59] Speaker 3: That works. I like that. Yeah, yes, actually, wait, that could work too, because here's the thing, Grizabella is redeemed in the end, and so is Darth Vader. So that works, I think. All right, that works, yeah, let's, let's do a couple more. What about Princess Leia? Princess Leia, I immediately want to say Victoria, because, like, you know, Leah's in the the all white outfit, and Victoria is the white cat, maybe in the beginning, but, but no, let's think of another one. I think Prince, like, I'm trying to think of Princess Leia as a whole. I'm thinking, actually, I'm thinking either, either between bomb, ballerina or Demeter. I was thinking bomb, that was more, I think more bomb, yeah, definitely, yeah. Okay, last one, I think this is probably the, there's two answers, I think, for this one. But what about Yoda? Yoda, um, it could be Old Deuteronomy, um, or

[23:55] Mike Abrams: or Gus or Gus, yeah, those are, I think, year two. Yeah,

[23:59] Speaker 3: for sure. I think, I think, like, definitely, both of them, for sure, because they both have a lot to offer, as far as, like, you know, wisdom. Um, because, you know, like, there's, you know, there's the beginning of Act Two with the moments of happiness. Um, but, but I feel like, but I feel like, you know, I'm just like, I'm just thinking, like, every single characters arc, really, because, like, you know, you see Yoda as, like, you know, he's a part of the Jedi Council, and he's, like, in my opinion, he doesn't really think super clear, because everything that he sees is kind of cloudy and faded. But then, like, in his diet, in his like, dying moments, like in his last days. That's what I meant. In his last days, he is more aware of, like, life itself, you know. So that could be all Deuteronomy and Gus really, yeah, it

[24:51] Mike Abrams: can be all due. I think I mean the fact that you said that, he's not clear, I think that would be my way to say it's all due, because I don't think old dude makes the right decision. But. Okay. I really enjoyed this Star Wars. That was really fun. I like that. I always love I like comparing cats to any other things. It's like, probably one of my favorite things to do. I love it. We'll be back after this short break. I want to go back to some of the relationships with Tucker and the like the other characters and some of the ones that like, I think, because of how, how much personality comes from Tugger. There's a lot of, like, theories and potentials. So let's start with Mr. Police, the obvious, yeah, yeah. What's going on there in your eyes? Like, what's happening there?

[25:31] Speaker 3: I think they're, they're boyfriend and boyfriend. I think that's what they are.

[25:35] Mike Abrams: I It's all the fan fiction is that, and so I it's one of those things that there's some versions of where they're together, there's some versions where there might be brothers, or some versions where they're like, other relationships. But pretty much every drawing or writing I have seen has been boyfriend and boyfriend.

[25:53] Speaker 3: I think, I think that too, really, because, like, you know, I mean, like, disregarding, like, you know, that whole number of Mr. Mustoffice and how Tugger presents Mr. Musto please. To save, to save all Do I just think, because for me, for me, like I, I like between Paul and I's dynamic. Who's, who's the misto now, like we always played with like, you know, our looks at each other, even during Tugger, like we have, we have little moments, you know. And I think because we're all, you know, Jellicle cats, like, they're all very mystical and magical, it's clear that Mr. Mistoffels is the is the most magical one, the most powerful one. But Tugger has a bit of magic too, you know, I don't know if, if this was necessarily shown in other versions, but in, but in the revival, you know, there's like a little bit of a duet between Tugger and misto, where they're sharing the magic. So like, Tugger is like throwing spotlights at other cats to like, you know, feel to like, feel good, or whatever. But misto is also next to him, like, projecting that. So, like, together, they create literal magic. So so, you know, and I think because of that powerful dynamic, there is a lot of love there, because they understand each other. And I think misto is the only one that kind of really does understand Tugger in that sense, again, it's not spoken of or shown, or there are smaller elements where it can be shown, but it's never really spoken about. But I feel like it's there

[27:29] Mike Abrams: when Chrissy tells you the cat story does, is there an opinion on that given? Um,

[27:36] Speaker 3: no, no, there was. There really wasn't any um, any mention of between, like, that relationship really,

[27:45] Mike Abrams: okay, because it seems one that's like, it seems almost assumed over the years, but I've always wondered if it's one another that's just like, it's because of staging and certain things. And like, you're like, you're saying the new magic part together, where there's a lot of stuff that happens together, that you can make the assumption of relationship, but there's not actually a spoken this isn't like there's a couple that are spoken, or there seems to be a couple that's like, we know this is true. I think one of those is like, I'm pretty sure it's pretty much like, it's that Old Deuteronomy is, your dad bestows your brother. Like, some of those are just like, convinced, like, that's, that's true. What do you think about Grizabella? Grizabella? Like, what's that? Your mom? What's, what's Tucker's relationship with Grizz? Yeah, is it your mom? No, I think Grizabella is more like my aunt, like my annoying aunt. I think my mother is Jenny, any dots? Jenny, dots and Old Deuteronomy, our parents? Okay,

[28:37] Speaker 3: for sure. And because, like, you know, old dude isn't always around. You know, there's, there's also that relationship between skimble shanks and Jenny any dots. They're always together. And I think, okay, so this is a whole like branch going on here. So I for Tugger I think Jenny any dots is like the like his mother, like he birthed him, for sure, because if you look at the costumes, like we have the same like spots, yeah, we have similar spots. And I think, you know, skimble Shanks is like father figure, but he's more more so like my uncle. So like, I like to give him, like, a really tough time, yeah, but, but with Grizabella, I don't think there really is, like, a, like, a big relationship between,

[29:24] Mike Abrams: between the two. Okay, it's, it's like, one of the rumors the family tree cast family tree is, is unclear, and it seems to change a lot. So Grisel being your mom is one scenario, but I think a lot of that's just the assumption of she was a pop star type of person before you're kind of the rock star. Is that, like, just making that tie together? I mean, that makes sense. Like, I wouldn't put it past it. But you know, with what? Because you know me, me and my cast mates, like, in the beginning, we spoke about this. We spoke about, like, what our

[29:54] Speaker 3: Well, all of our relationships are together. I know for me, like, I know that the. The definite relationships that I have are with Old Deuteronomy and monkey strap. Yeah, a little bit of Macavity, but not as much, because monk Tugger and Macavity are brothers. We're the three, and we're all, of course, like products of of Old Deuteronomy. And you can even see it in the way that our hair is like, you know, monkey strap is like, is very pointed out, but it's out. Tugger is also out, but he's got a more. He's got more what? What is that he's got more teas in his hair? Yeah, it's very much a mane. He's got more teas in his hair, whereas Macavity similar, but like, it's not there. Like, if you look really close at it, like you can see, like, he has like, curls, like near the top, kind of similar to where Tugger is so and and similar color scheme, really. So the three of us are definitely brothers, and then

[30:59] Mike Abrams: the rest is kind of just implied. So it's like you and Mr. To get Mr. Together, Jenny might be your mom. There's the other one that's always been told to me, and it seems like it's an unwritten like part, but almost written is, is that Macavity in Demeter and like an abusive relationship?

[31:15] Speaker 3: Yeah? So yes. So with Macavity, we're also scared of him because, well, because he's he's really bad. He's not, he's not a good cat at all. And we, we have accepted Demeter and bomb ballerina because they were both products of Macavity. And we, and we also say that for Grizabella, but she really fell down into the deep end. Grizabella bomb and Demeter were all products of the cavity, but we were, we were able to save bomb and Demeter, bomb is a bit more experienced, because, like, she, she, she grew past her trauma, and she and she was able to, like, you know, become stronger from that, whereas Demeter is still kind of traumatized, so that's why we have bomb to balance her out, yeah, whereas, again, Grizabella, she fell deep into it, and it's still a little unclear to me as to like, why we really, why we really showed her way, But, we all know that because she stayed the way that she stayed, and because she was a product of Macavity, we're like, No, we can't, we can't take you in like that, like, you know, you gotta figure that stuff on your own. I think it's, I think it's because, like, you know, because she went through so much trauma that that she couldn't find, find the path. And again, there's a lot of, there's a lot of speculations that I'm not sure, I'm not sure how to articulate well, but, but, yeah, it's, it's, it's sad either way.

[32:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah, totally. Well, this is that might not lend well to my last argument. Let's switch gears to some rapid fire. If you were gonna go on as another cat, not as Tugger. Forget, if you're capable of singing it, dancing it, male, female, whatever. If you could just do one track one night. Who would you wanna go on? Bomb? Ballerina?

[33:14] Mike Abrams: I think that's, I think that's always a fun answer of just going on and singing that, song that's that's the sound that gets stuck in my head most now,

[33:24] Speaker 3: yeah, also, just like the color scheme that she has, it's so vibrant. It's so cool.

[33:31] Mike Abrams: What? Who are your favorite and least favorite cats, not characters, not actors like you, personally, not Tugger, like as you. Zach, me, um, I,

[33:42] Speaker 3: I think my least favorite character is the Rumpus Cat. My favorite, my favorite. My favorite has to be Mungo Jerry, for sure. Okay,

[33:53] Mike Abrams: I just want to say I really appreciate that you went with least favorite first, because so often everybody in the show is like, very political, and they're like, here's my favorite. And it's like, oh, I have to pick a least favorite. And you're like, here right away, yeah, tell you the one I dislike the

[34:07] Speaker 3: most, the Rumpus Cat. I'm like, okay, like, all right, whatever.

[34:12] Mike Abrams: What is your favorite song in the show skimble shanks. Skimble shanks. I love it. That's such a fast paced, like, unique piece. What part of the do you build? Part of the train? What part of the train are you? Oh, no, I'm chilling out on the tire. I'm chilling with I'm chilling with dad. I'm like, Hey, what's up? What's up all dude, like, Oh, look at the train. Nice, nice, nice. Yeah, that one I still to this day, this time, the first time I saw the light, hit me in the audience, like it, oh, wow. Like they flash on the audience, and they hit me. And so I was like, I don't know who flashed the thing at me, but I was like, I had a very anti skimble Shanks mindset for a while just because of that. So sorry, but I'm turning the corner. I'm starting to like symbol. There was one time, there was one show that I actually did help build a train, and that was because we. We were going through a big COVID outbreak, so, like, we were kind of losing some people, some cats, yeah. And I helped with one of the one of the wheels.

[35:09] Speaker 3: I helped with one of the wheels, and I did not realize how heavy that thing was. I was like, Oh my God. And it's angled weird, like you have you're holding this stick and this big metal wheel, like out in front of it, and you're trying to make it spin. And I'm like, oh my god, turning it right. Yeah. So

[35:25] Mike Abrams: who gets when there's, like, when you have COVID outbreaks, did you have the twins? Like, who got cut? Who were the the ones that they pulled out? Uh,

[35:32] Speaker 3: like, what were the cats that are normally in? Cats were taken out. Uh, let me see they were etc, was taken out.

[35:40] Mike Abrams: It's usually like, etc, the twins and syllabub are the ones that I've always heard, no, we've had,

[35:45] Speaker 3: we have the twins in syllabub. I think it was like, just, okay, etc, really, okay, yeah. That's, that's not bad. That's, I thought, for sure, is gonna be like, so that's, that's great. Oh, buckety car. Buckety is out to feel because there's a couple of other, well, I played Bill Bailey, but usually Bill Bailey is just like a different is usually a different cat of its own. Yeah, there's, I'm sure there's a few others.

[36:12] Mike Abrams: Okay, what? Here's my last rapid fire before we go into the million dollar question. Okay, since you are, you know, have a, have a nice little Tugger talk. Which cat besides Tugger do you think would be great on tick tock? They become the influencers. Skimble Shanks, for sure. Skimble Shanks with all the train content, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. There's, I think there's a couple answers. I think it's bomb. And Victoria are doing the dances? Oh yeah, they got the dances down, for sure. And I and I think there's a world where bus for Jones has some like cooking. Oh

[36:47] Speaker 3: my god, if not tick tock, then definitely on the Food Network, like he'll have some spot there.

[36:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, love it all right. Now, here's the final million dollar question. Okay, I've already get argued at length. I don't think Grizzle is the right Jellicle choice. So I want to know who are you picking. Why are you picking them? Like, who are you defending? Ah,

[37:10] Speaker 3: I I've been told, I've been told this so many times that I've actually, like, come to terms with believing it. I think, I think it's, does it have to be under a credit do too? You can do two. I'm gonna do two. It's either skimble Shanks or Gus. It's either one of

[37:27] Mike Abrams: those. All right, so give me the rationale behind both of

[37:30] Speaker 3: them. So with skimble Shanks, and I spoke about this with Chris salvagio, who plays skimble shanks. Yes, there's a lot of similar tones in in his song that are played throughout the show that makes you speculate, oh, it could be skimble shanks. Like he is the perfect contender to go to the heavy side there. So there's that so, like, if you hear it, if you hear it in the music, in the moments of happiness of of many generations, skimble Shanks, like, it's like, ding, ding, ding, you hear that? So, so it's like, oh, could be him. And with, and also, like skimble Shanks, like, it's just like the most, the most pure, like you have, like you can't there's like, no one has any arguments about skin bull shanks. Like, we love skimble shanks. Like, even Tugger loves skimble shanks. Like, and he bothers him so many times. Like, Oh, yeah. Like, you could totally go there. Like, I don't, um, totally, but with Gus, personally, I just, I just love Gus, and he, he's just so, he's just so, so very whole, and has so much experience. And, you know, it's like, it's like, it definitely could be his time. But I hear that there's, like, a lot of theories as to, like, why he doesn't go to it at all, like plenty of them, I don't know, but

[38:51] Mike Abrams: the first one I heard on that was from the 2016 Gus, who said he didn't have a life to live. So he thought if he was chosen, he wouldn't be reborn like he thought he was. That was his end. Oh, wow, wow. Okay, yeah, kind of dark, yeah. I think that is, I think that was his way of being like this is why I'm not getting picked every night. So that was kind of my thought. There. I did I like your so I do have an episode with Chris. I don't know if it's coming out before after this, so at some point you'll hear but there is his thought was, which I loved, is that actually skimble was the choice, until Grizabella came back, and then it was like he was gonna be it, right? And then grisabelle came back and stole his thunder.

[39:35] Speaker 3: Yes, no, yes. He, he's mentioned that plenty of times, yes, like, at that very moment, like, it could have been him. I like

[39:43] Mike Abrams: that theory. I think the question that the unanswerable question, or it could be answered by Chrissy or Andrea Webber or somebody, but the unanswerable question is, is, what is the criteria of Deuteronomy? And is it the same every year? Because we only get one ball, yeah, and we only get this year. And it's like. He chose redemption and teaching a lesson, and that type of thing. But the reality is, what was last year's? And I think one of your castmates thought Victoria was last year's, who's next year's? Because if it's redemption, who's your redemption story next year? Do you have a redemption story next year? Is that Macavity like? So that's where I struggle with it. Is that, like, I don't know what the criteria is, and because I don't know the criteria, I think it's just like a whatever Old Deuteronomy is thinking, which is a flavor of the year type of thing, because you can make an argument for a lot of people. I still think the argument I made originally, which was my joke, which you're telling me, is not a possibility, because Chrissy told you you're not even in the running, but I watched a competition show, so I thought, what was the best two performances that I enjoyed, that I could do? And I put tug of police, Tugger and misophys together. Oh, like, like, at the X Factor, yeah, I want to combine the two into one, into a duo instead of a single, and I'm going to bring them up, yeah, if I'm old derotomy, that's my criteria, yeah, but it seems like there's not an answer to that question, and so that makes this very hard, yeah, but Gus is a Gus skimble Sometimes Jenny, I think skimble. The other thing is skimble. And Jenny, you wonder, can the tribe survive without them, like they do so much? Yeah,

[41:13] Speaker 3: I you know there was, there was never any talks of like, or at least with within the tribe on like, what Old Deuteronomy criteria was. I'm sure, in the last year, who's our old dude has has had that conversation of, like, what his criteria is and, or what, or what he thinks old dudes criteria is, but I, I'm actually, I don't know either, really, but I would love to talk about a theory that I have as to why Tugger, Tugger isn't a contender. Um, okay, yeah, cuz and I, and I've and I brought this up on Instagram a couple times. I think people have asked me, like, oh, like, what's your head canon? And I was like, okay, um, well, being that in this version of cats, I play Bill Bailey, and then I go off to then played Rum Tum Tugger. So I feel, I theorize, that Bill Bailey is also Rum Tum Tugger, but Bill Bailey was given a chance to go to the heavy side lair to become Rum Tum Tugger um, and, and with that in mind, I think Bill Bailey never lived his life to the fullest. So Old Deuteronomy gave him that chance to be able to express himself the way that he wanted to. Even the name Bill Bailey, it seems, it seems very like, I don't know, posh, I don't know. So it's like, so, so, like, you know, with when he's given that chance to go to the heavy side layer, and then it comes back as Rum Tum Tugger. And you see Rum Tum Tugger, and what he represents, which is just fun, openness, happiness, freedom, you know he, he then Tugger then realizes that, like, you know he's he's fine the way that he is so like he has no worries of going to the heavy side layer, which, which, I don't think it's a bad thing, a bad thing that he's that he's not a contender. Because a little acting detail that I kind of throw in during the show is, you know, during, during memory, we all we're all scattered away. We're dispersed. We hide ourselves. I'm not looking at Grizabella, but I'm hearing her, and I the second time that she says happiness, it strikes me. I'm like, wait, I know what that is. That's how, that's how I express myself, and this is me being Tugger. Like, this is how I express true happiness. And that's all you want. So, like, Oh, now, now I get it. I get it. So that's, that's my thing.

[43:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I think it's fair. It's, it's the the your life is great right now, as is, you don't want to, even if it's like, winning, you don't want to, because the whole point is, you go and you get reborn as a new cat, another life, and you're like, my life's pretty good. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to leave it right now. So I think that that's, that's totally fair, that goes back to again, like, what's the criteria and what is, what does actually mean to win? Like, I looked at it as, you know, a not just the death, but it's like, some people don't even think it's death. Some people think it's like, you can just go up to the the attic of the Winter Garden and hang out, you know, like that was one theory for one point, and then, you know, one is that you win the show. So it's like it even depends on that criteria. And and it's so open ended, which is why this show, this podcast, the show going for 41 years, like it can exist is because there isn't a lot of that stuff. But I love so Bill Bailey. So your theory is Bill Bailey was a choice, what, like a year or two ago, and then comes back as Tucker. Interesting. I don't think I've ever i that might be, I know you've started that rumor. I don't think I've heard that from anybody else. Oh,

[45:00] Speaker 3: yeah, no. Again, it was just like, like, character work and, and, you know, the the makeup is very similar to both of them. And, you know, it's just like, the difference is, like, the look, really, yeah, but yeah, no, that was, that was something I just put together because, again, I know that, like in, in earlier versions of cats like Bill Bailey is its own cat, separate cat, but, but because, you know, I was, I was very honored to play Bill Bailey for like, 10 minutes of the first 10 minutes of the show, I just sort of went with that. I was like, okay, they're they're the same, they're the same. Totally. What,

[45:37] Mike Abrams: what are the theories you have? Do you have anything else that we've missed.

[45:42] Speaker 3: Do I have any other theories other than Mr. And Tugger are boyfriend and boyfriend? Then not? No, not really. Okay, the I guess one thing that I wanted to portray more with Tugger was his generosity and and how genuine he can actually be. It's not just just up until Mr. Mustafa. He's like that, like, once we get there, like we we actually know his arc. Like, he's like, Yeah, comes in, he messes things up, but then he comes back to actually help out. In the end, I wanted to show that from the very beginning, um, with Tugger is that, like, yes, he's there to mess things up a little bit, but he's not there to, like, destroy the Junker. He's not here to ruin the night. He's just here to have fun,

[46:33] Mike Abrams: yeah, which is, I think, not always the way it's played. I think some of it's like, the Tugger is going to wreak havoc, like, I am here to cause mischief and like, kind of be a nuisance, because I can, because it's my dad's in charge, yeah, you know, type of thing. So I do like that, that, that, that slight tweak on it is I am, like, I'm, I am a member of this tribe. I want to be a member of this tribe, but I want to go have a good time. Yeah, for sure,

[46:58] Speaker 3: in the beginning of, in the beginning of Tugger. You know, I say, Who will it be? And then I start, like, this maniacal laugh, just like it's, it's even said in the in the score, it's like ad lib laughter. I come in with this like, crazy laugh. And it's, it's a laugh that I actually do, like, as Zach like, I just do it and and, you know, like that. I think that was another thing too, that I want to showcase with, with, with Tucker being genuine, is because, like, I really want to project myself into the role, so adding that laugh and knowing that like that, even though it's it's a little it's a little scary, the laugh we know that like he's just really having a good time.

[47:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Can you give us one? Can you do it on cue? I could if you wanted me to. Yeah, let's hear it. This is an audio platform. Let's hear it. Okay,

[47:51] Speaker 3: you might have to help me out here. Could you say? Could you say? Jellicles, yes. Jellicles asked, because jellicles. Dare, who will it be?

[47:58] Mike Abrams: Jellicles Ask because jellicles there, who will it be? Will it be? That was amazing. So glad that we have that on record for the world. This was amazing. How can people stay in touch? Like, so, I mean Tiktok, social media, like, what are the best ways to keep up with you?

[48:22] Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So I don't really have a lot of Tugger content anymore, but, like, the videos are still there. If you want to check them out on my Tiktok, it's at Zach Bravo. It's just my full name, Z, A, C, H, B, R, A, V, O, or if you just want to check out on like, any other updates that I do like throughout my day or my post on Instagram. You can follow me on at the underscore Zach Bravo, and you'll catch me there. Awesome.

[48:48] Mike Abrams: Well, this was super fun. I'm glad we got to end on the maniacal but thank you so much for being a guest and sharing your theories and sharing your experience. Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you so much awesome. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website. The wrong cat died.