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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. Welcome to

[0:30] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He is currently skimble Shanks in the US national tour, six of cats, which is performing right now. So welcome Christopher Salvaggio, and thank you for joining me. Hi. Thank you for having me. I am excited to have you. I do love talking to skinless shanks. It's such an interesting character. I love. I would just always, I always start, I always love to know, for anybody that's in the show, what was your history with the show before being cast in it? This

[0:59] Speaker 2: is actually funny. I really don't have much of a history with cats at all. It wasn't something I was super familiar with. I didn't grow up a theater kid, so like a lot of theater kids grew up, they had that VHS, like the 98 version. I didn't have that. I had never seen it. I had never seen a stage production of Cats either. I didn't start doing theater until later, until, like, my middle and high school years. But what I did know about it as a kid was pretty much like, not even really a synopsis, but just like a name, a name of a few characters, like I'd heard Grizabella, I'd heard magical Mr. Malise. I've these are things I've heard. I didn't know anything about cats. My introduction was really the first time I auditioned for a production of the show, which was actually for a cruise ship production. I auditioned, like, right when I moved to New York, and that was the first time I had, like, YouTube clips of cats and learned the songs and listened to the music and began to understand the characters a little bit more. That audition did not work out for me.

[1:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah. What was that audition? Let's say I think 2018 probably I'm trying to think because they went from doing a full production, I'm assuming it's Royal Caribbean, because it's the only cruise ship I know that does it. Yeah, they went from doing a full production to doing a 90 minute version, and so was this for the 90 minute version? I

[2:16] Speaker 2: do not know. Okay, not I don't know. Okay,

[2:21] Mike Abrams: I don't know when they made the switch. I know they made the switch at some point in the run. It's been running for like, 15 years, I think, forever, on the cruise ship, and it's still going right now. Okay, so you auditioned that one didn't work out. Then you you get this audition, and it does work out. And so what did you prep going into the audition.

[2:41] Speaker 2: So this audition, they sent me the material so different from the first time around, I was in for characters that weren't like skimble, like I was in for other characters. This time around, they specifically sent me skimble, and they sent me like a packet, is what we call it. So it was the skimble Shank song, two of the ensemble numbers and three dances. So that's what I prepared. And I didn't do much research, if I'm being honest about the show again, I really, I mean, we get a lot of auditions and, like, there's always stuff going on, so it's hard to, like, really put all effort into every single, like, the backstory and research of every single audition. I kind of do that after the initial audition will go well, which is what I did. So I learned those dances, I learned the songs. By the time I got my call back, I became an expert on cats, and I had done more research and understood the show, so that way I could show up to my call back ready to go. That makes

[3:31] Mike Abrams: sense. Yeah, you can't if you're putting a lot out there on auditions. You can't be an expert on anything. You just wouldn't have enough time. So Okay, so next, so you get the show, though, and you've kind of done your your research before. Tell me about what were you were told? Like, what? How I know you go through your you get the story told to you. You have your kind of like, days to learn it like, what was what were you told about? Skimble shanks. Skimble

[3:54] Speaker 2: Shanks, the thing, the main thing that stuck out in my head, which is what I really like underlined when I was taking notes, is that he's like, the fun uncle. Everyone loves skimble, and skimble loves everyone, and Uncle, I think, was the most important word, because he's not the dad. I'm not the one who's, like, actively always taking care of in a father sense, but an uncle, they look out for you. They're more fun, more playful. That's the one thing that really stood out to me, and also that everyone loves skimple skimble loves everyone. So I took that and allowed myself to make connections with each cat on stage and form a relationship with each of them where I think a lot of the cats don't actually have a full relationship with each other totally. I

[4:37] Mike Abrams: think there's somewhere there are very clear lines, and there's some where there's kind of no idea. So what walk me through some of those relationships? Like, how do you how do you like go through that when you're performing every day? Sure,

[4:49] Speaker 2: yeah. So the, my first, most important relationship, I think, is with the kittens. And it's, it's kind of built into the show for me. So when we were staging, there's a lot of moments to. Is pulling away the kittens, while monk is facing head off with Grizabella. I'm taking care of syllabi. I'm taking care of pound civil. So a lot of that's built in, but then I let that carry through into the other moments, like in the ball, I check in on them, how they're doing, like they're trying to greet will do? And I'm like, Oh, how's it going? Like, going good. Did that answer your question? Yeah,

[5:17] Mike Abrams: yeah. I mean, I think I'm interested in the relationships of all the cats, because I think there's, like, if we think about the cats family tree, there's some questions with skimble shanks. Like, what's the relationship with Tugger? Is like, are you with Jenny? Any dots? Because there's, like, in some productions, that's a good one. They hold hands and so like, are you, yeah, the uncle for all of them. There's even one rumor that Corporal cat is your adopted son, which is weird. I heard that one. I like that. Yeah. I just think it's weird that there's adoption in cats to begin with, but that's like one of the rumors I read online. So I am always curious how much you kind of think about those things as you perform. Like, obviously staging piece. But which ones do you believe is truth

[6:04] Speaker 2: Jenny? Jenny is definitely my other biggest one, and that's another one that they kind of set for me that I didn't have to find they were like, oh, Jenny and scandal, you guys are pals. And that was kind of the extent of what they gave us. I have a really great relationship with Michelle, who plays Jenny, so we naturally formed a great bond, and that kind of led to us believing that our characters, I think, are together. Like, that's my stance on like Jenny and skimble couple. That's what I that's what I really believe. And I put the end of the show like, there are moments where we, like, Hold pause, like one on top of the other, and we get to cuddle the whole time during Gus, the theater cat. And also in a lot of those moments where I'm shooing away the kittens, she's showing away the other kittens. We're like, tag teaming, taking care of everyone,

[6:44] Mike Abrams: yeah? Well, so that makes sense. Okay, so she's the aunt. You're the uncle, yeah? And then you've got all the kittens that are your nieces and nephews. What about some of the other characters? Like a Mustafa is a Tugger rumple teaser and Mungo Jerry? Yes. You know

[6:59] Speaker 2: what's so funny about monk on rump is that I almost don't see them at all during the show, like we have very, very few staged moments, which I also have to take as, oh, maybe like that relationship isn't a super important one for skimble. But I always also thought when I was developing my character that like skimble, we all we know is type a very on it very regimented. Is that a word? Yes. Sorry, I do that a lot. But, like, I'm like that too. Now I'm very much like skim like that. But when I was a kid, I was not, I was more like Mongo and rump. So I thought, hmm, maybe skimble was the same way. So like, when I was developing skimble, I think he looks at them with like, a sort of fondness as like, Oh, those were the days. Like, I used to be like that too, but I got it together and

[7:45] Mike Abrams: love it. So it's kind of you, you, I like that. You took the progression of skimbles life like, but back in the day, he was a little bit more feisty and, yeah, disorganized, and now he's like the older uncle that keeps everything on top, yeah, I like to

[8:00] Speaker 2: think he learned how to harness that energy, like he had that chaotic energy, and he turned it into now he's, like, a workaholic. Yeah, that's what I that's so that's what I think of Montgomery. So I obviously am disciplining them throughout the show, like, always, like, come on, like, we're doing a thing here, um, trying to get them back on track. But like, I also think that I look at them, like, oh, like, they're a little, they're younger, and they're having fun, and that's what I used to be, like, they'll figure

[8:24] Mike Abrams: it out. Yeah. What about the relationship with all Deuteronomy? All

[8:28] Speaker 2: Deuteronomy, I I mean, I think I have a pretty similar relationship. I think I know him better than the rest of the kittens, or the kittens, and like most of the other adult cats, like, I believe my relationship with him might be stronger, but I think that's also a skimble Shanks trait, like he is very about himself. So like, of course, I think that my sorry. I think that my relationship is great. And I Yeah, Chris thinks that. And skimble Shanks thinks that okay. I admire him. I look up to him. And I think my version of skimble also kind of hopes to take over one day, if that's a thing. Okay, it's not obvious.

[9:05] Mike Abrams: Okay, um, so I think that's a really interesting point about you wanting to take over. Because I think one of the questions that I always had with skimmble Shanks is, is skimble Shanks even in the running for the heavy side layer, I

[9:18] Speaker 2: have two answers to that. The first question is, the first answer is, skimble Shanks definitely thinks he is okay. Like, skimble Shanks thinks he's number one choice. Like, he thinks he's it. But that's also a part of the skimble like, constantly kind of thinking about himself, not in a selfish kind of way, but in a pride, prideful kind of way. Like, if someone's going to be the most, like elite ready to go, it's going to be him, like, that's what he believes, but also in that same kind of prideful attitude, like, if someone's going to take over, who else is going to be skimble. So, like I, I myself as Kimball thinks of himself as he's just very proud of him, and he thinks he can do anything he sets his mind to. If that makes

[9:59] Mike Abrams: sense. It's so you're Yeah, you kind of have this like internal dilemma of, yes, I should be in charge, but also I should be the choice,

[10:07] Speaker 2: right? And for me, it all comes from like he's self regarding very not into himself, but, but yeah, is into himself. He knows he's good as what he does and can do it. Yeah,

[10:21] Mike Abrams: yeah. I mean, I struggle with this one because I always thought, when you look at everyone making their case for why they should be the choice, I didn't get skimble song to be nearly as much of that as much more of like, Yes, look, here's how like, look how great I am, and look how important I am, but not like, here's why you should pick me, except for there's one piece in there where it looks like it's he's handing a rat, I think the whole Deuteronomy. And I kind of joked, I thought he was bribing him, like, Hey, here's why, here's my bribe. Why you should pick me. But I also realized that when he changed his clothes, I thought he was just taking his pants off in front of all the kittens, which I thought was

[10:58] Speaker 2: really weird. Sure that I guess that is weird. Yeah, I do agree as not, this is Chris not skimble speaking. And yeah, as far as the number goes, he's not exactly pleading his case exactly, but maybe in his way he is like, like, I think he's just telling his story, which he thinks everyone is going to find to be incredible.

[11:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is a, it is a pretty cool number. There's a lot going on. Yeah, building a train. Do you I think, like, I'm assuming, because I know every stage and every production is probably slightly different with the tour, because you've got different amounts of space, but I'm assuming you build the train every single time. Yes, awesome. Yeah. I think the numbers really, is really unique. And so I do like, how do you like, I know you auditioned and prep for kind of like, the dance number and obviously, probably the tapping that kind of goes with it. But how much of like the rest of the show, like the ball and all these other things, like, how much did you when you did your research before your callback kind of go in and understand, like, Did you realize the ball was an orgy? Because I definitely didn't pick that up until later? Okay? No,

[12:02] Speaker 2: no, no, I did not. And I've listened to your podcast before, so I've heard explanations and theories and such. And obviously we kind of don't really touch on that when we learn about the show, but it's implied. And like, once you hear the once you hear the analysis, you get it. But no, I had no idea. I'm a very naive mind, also like me personally, so, like, I wasn't going to pick up on that on my own.

[12:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I didn't either grant I've not shown the show nearly as much as this podcast would lend people to believe. But it is kind of wild to me of how sexual and over the top, some of the show is in a show that's almost produced for kids at points, literally for children, yes. And so I do think it's kind of a strange thing. Do you catch that? Like, do you think audience know that? Like, I think the part, the cool part about the tour is, is that you get to get a very different experience versus being in one's place for, you know, two years, like you're going for three or four days or a week, or even sometimes shorter, like you get a very different reaction. I think so. Do you notice that tour crowds kind of react differently? Are people picking up on these things, or is it just like a first time, for the most part, seeing it?

[13:16] Speaker 2: I would probably say that they're not picking up on most of the things, if I'm being honest. I mean, when I have people come see the show, which I do pretty often, almost them unfamiliar with cats will have the talk. Like, oh. Like, what happens? Like, what did you see? And they'll be like, dancing. Like, I'm like, okay, good, okay, you know what? Round one watch. That's I accept that and exactly enjoy it for what it is. No, I don't know.

[13:43] Mike Abrams: How much do you prep people when they come see it? Do you give them like, a heads up or a rundown?

[13:50] Speaker 2: If I talk to them before they come, I ask what they want, but if it's up to me, I say, like, just watch I want, because I get enjoyment out of seeing what they understand and what they pick up on, and it's not, no, I don't like giving them a heads up. I mean, I tell them like when I come, when I come out on stage, and what I sing, and then when my number is, but as far as the plot and what's going on, I don't tell them anything.

[14:14] Mike Abrams: If someone asks you after seeing it, what did I just witness? What would your answer me, that's

[14:22] Speaker 2: almost the same question as kind of, what's the show's about? I always just think of it as, like it's a story about a community and redemption for someone who had to leave or left a community. In short, that's what I answer. It's just, it's about our tribe of special, individual, unique cats. So essentially, their tradition, their ritual, yeah,

[14:45] Mike Abrams: it's basically reality TV. Yeah, you're watching reality TV. Oh, okay, wait, so what's okay now? Then this is a great question. What's your favorite reality TV show

[14:55] Speaker 2: right now? Oh, my goodness, literally, all I watch is reality TV. So I don't even know where to start you. But my favorite reality TV show of all time, I'm sorry, actually, no, I'm not sorry is keeping up with the Kardashians, um, but right now I'm obsessed with housewives, like, but I also like, I'm obsessed with competition shows. Every summer I watch Big Brother. I love American Idol type shows. Like, I just I love reality TV.

[15:18] Mike Abrams: So I am convinced. And a lot of this podcast started because I thought I was watching a reality TV show a weird, weird cat version of The X Factor, sure. And so I was like, that's how this came. But I want to do two things. So one is, I'm not I'm not enough up with the housewives to able to do this, but I do love what I could probably do this with you, with the Kardashians. Let's pick which cat would be, which Kardashian.

[15:44] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is a dream come true. So I'm sure

[15:47] Mike Abrams: you've thought about this probably more than I have, but let's start with Kim.

[15:51] Speaker 2: Okay, Kim. Kim, if I can kind of tweak the characters a little bit, is the Grizabella, but in her prime, so Grizabella was the glamor cat that is

[16:03] Mike Abrams: Kim. You know why this? I like totally agree with that one is because I've always thought that Grizabella, in her prime, when she left the tribe, is probably the sex tape type of like scenario, which is that era of Kim Kardashian, yeah. Okay. What about Chloe? Chloe?

[16:20] Speaker 2: Chloe. So Chloe, I'm gonna talk this out, because I actually haven't thought about this before in my life. Chloe is the funny one. She is an uplifter. She also takes care of people. So I guess I think I would say that Chloe might be Jenny. Any dots?

[16:36] Mike Abrams: That seems right? Kind of motherly, because we know that's not Chris, right. So I Okay, and then, but where would you put Courtney? Then

[16:46] Speaker 2: Courtney is a little darker, a little a little cheekier, I would say Courtney's personality. Let me think of all these cats, honestly. Wait, there's old Courtney who would remind me a little bit more of rump, a little okay, like that, a little sassy ish. But then there's new Courtney who reminds me of Cassandra. New Courtney keeps to herself, she kind of alienates, she's calm, she's always watching. That's Courtney these days. That

[17:13] Mike Abrams: was what I was thinking, was Cassandra just kind of like, you know, like around very, yeah, very much. There knows all a little bit in a way, mysterious, yeah, okay, um, let's keep doing the the daughters, Kylie.

[17:28] Speaker 2: Kylie, sweet Kylie. We love Kylie. Kylie is Kylie is a Leo, just like me, which is why I love her. So, which cats do I really think fit that? And also, she's, like, stunning. Who could that be? I have my

[17:44] Mike Abrams: I have my thought. But okay, what do you think? I think it's bomb Valley arena. Yes, yes. I see that very much. Like, you know, little devish, but not too much. Been through some stuff, yeah. And I think good. And then Kendall, that's where I put Kendall is Demeter potentially. But I still think one of them has to be Victoria potentially. Yeah, which one would have the Victoria

[18:09] Speaker 2: equality? I mean, if we're talking like, if we put Grizz back in, busted Grizz, like she is in our show, then I would say Kim is Victoria, yeah, if she's not the glamor, yeah, I like, I love that Kylie and Kendall is mom and Demeter. What about Chris? Good. Chris has to be Old Deuteronomy, right? Orchestrating everything. Yeah, she's, she's part Old Deuteronomy and part monk, because monk is also monk tells the story. And this is Chris Jenner story to tell. Yeah,

[18:41] Mike Abrams: think we'll end, we'll end with them. We're not going to pull in any other Kardashians, or there's so much fun there, or the other people around their business, like we're not going to touch Kanye or anybody here. Oh, no. Okay. We're going to take a quick break for some messages from our sponsors, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. Let's, let's keep going. I want to hear a little bit about you have done an amazing job with Tiktok, and, like, bringing in the cats world to that. So how did you kind of get started with that? How did you, like, take off with this? So

[19:14] Speaker 2: how did I get started with just Tiktok, or, like, doing it as in cat a

[19:17] Mike Abrams: little bit of, I'm assuming those kind of are related, isn't it Sure? I mean,

[19:21] Speaker 2: I started Tik Tok, like, during the peak of the pandemic, as something to do, like, I wasn't working and I was home and I was bored, and, excuse me, it was fun to do um, but when I got to cats, I I had never seen people really. I guess I had never used Tik Tok at the time when shows were opening, when shows were performing, because I started using Tik Tok March of 2020 so there was no show. So it's like, how fun would it be to be in costume and do that? And then as other shows have come back, I'd seen other people had been doing that too, so I just kind of found what fit for me. And I really like doing the cat transition videos, and just like doing the fun dances in cat are enjoy. People to me, I don't really do it for like, views or anything like that, because I don't, I don't, I don't tech talk like that anymore, but I think it's just fun. And I like when our fans get to see and they're like, Oh, we saw you last week in this city. You were so, like, they just get excited to see us in cat as opposed to in person. Yeah,

[20:18] Mike Abrams: it's super authentic. Which is, I think what you just said is you're not doing it for views or for any, like, influencing type of need. It's it's because you enjoy it, and you can see that, you can feel that it's like, it's fun, it's everyone's having a good time. So I just it is also, it's a great point about them being like, being in character cast is such a unique one for that, because it is so like, The costumes are so elaborate and so unique and different that the transition videos and some of those things are, like, really, really fun. And then the dancing is pretty fun too, because you you still kind of do them in the cat movement, yeah, which is not something that most people do like for for a while.

[20:55] Speaker 2: It's so funny, like, you put on that unitard and you're like, you're you get a soft paw, your hand goes down. Like, you kind of sit in your head, like, it's just so funny. You just, you're a cap.

[21:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Have you noticed that? Like, is it only when you're in costume, or is it transitioned to other parts of your

[21:10] Speaker 2: life? No, my goodness, it has transitioned to other parts of all of our lives. We like, walk around with soft paws and like, as, I don't know if it's as a joke, but like, we'll greet each other like that sometimes too, it's like, I don't know, well, maybe we'll get rid of it someday. Love

[21:25] Mike Abrams: it. Okay? My last tour question, then we're gonna go to some of the rapid fires. I always love to hear where, and we don't have to throw necessarily cities under the bus, but where's been, like, a really fun place to stop that you weren't expecting.

[21:37] Speaker 2: So my favorite city that I had no idea that I was going to love as much as I did was Spokane, Washington.

[21:43] Mike Abrams: Okay, what about it? Was it like good crowds, good fans, or just a cool place? Yeah,

[21:47] Speaker 2: the crowds were good, but it was like, mostly the city, like I had no expectations, which was the problem with some of the other places that we went on tours. I had big expectations. I had no expectations for Spokane, and it was right at the top of fall. The leaves were falling and changing colors, and they have so many cute coffee shops, and the weather was nice, and the vibes were good. And I love a bakery, and they had so many cute bakeries, it was just like a cute, small city. It was really nice.

[22:15] Mike Abrams: Okay, now I love, I this is a dangerous question, so if we edit it out, we can edit it out. What's the place that you've completely disliked?

[22:25] Speaker 2: There was a few, and it's and I will say I should preface this. It's not that I disliked the city. It's just that I think while being there, being there while working, is a completely different experience, totally. And so like, I didn't love being in Vegas while we had to work. I just, I didn't love being in New Orleans while we had to work, there's not enough time and energy to give off to, like, really indulge and enjoy those

[22:50] Mike Abrams: cities. Yeah, that's that's fair, because that's I was waiting for you to say. I'm from the Midwest, so usually people throw one of our cities under the bus, but that makes a lot of sense, that it's like, it's a city that's really fun that you just don't have the the bandwidth to do because you're, you know, doing an exhausting show every night, yeah, needing to rest and come back. Yeah, that's crazy. That's the

[23:11] Speaker 2: hard thing about working in general. And then also, with cats like, you can't go out there and do a show with any less than most of your energy. Yeah, that's just the nature of our show.

[23:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is a the athleticism it takes to get through like the ball, or just in general, the show is wild. Is absolutely wild. It is okay. Let's transition to some rapid fire questions. So if you could be any other cat for one day, forgetting any like, vocal range, dance ability, whatever it is, just, if you could just be anybody, who would you want to perform as for one day? Great. Grizabella, Grace, you just want to go about one day? Yep. Okay, that's not good for my last thing here, though, who are your favorite and least favorite

[24:00] Mike Abrams: like watching the show, yes. And not Yeah, not skin bull Shanks, you as a person watching it, and not character, not actor.

[24:08] Speaker 2: I like yeah, character. I like Jenny, any dots, I like misto, and I've grown to really like bomb and Demeter too.

[24:17] Mike Abrams: Okay. What about least favorite?

[24:19] Speaker 2: The least favorite cat, like I don't. I don't want to offend anybody. I don't love the mango and rump number. Interesting. Don't love that one, which I feel like is a favorite, but it's not my favorite. I've

[24:31] Mike Abrams: always wondered if it's a favorite, or if it's one that gets stuck in people's heads, because it's very, like, repetitive and catchy. It is. I mean, it gets stuck in our heads all the time. Yeah, yeah. So that's that might be, because that was when I walked out of the first time I saw it. That was the one I was stuck in my head. And as I've seen and listened to more, it's like, All right, that's not necessarily my favorite. Macavity is probably my favorite. Cavity is good, but it's a, it's a unique one. And it's like, you can't forget it. And it's also one of the few times where, in the show, it's it always feels like a sensory overload. And that number doesn't feel like a sensory overload because it's just the two of them. And so it's a little bit easier to kind of process what's happening at that moment. Yeah,

[25:13] Speaker 2: and it sticks out. It's like, one of the very few numbers where it's just two people, there's no one else. So it sticks out. The rest of us pretty much have ensemble numbers,

[25:26] Speaker 2: My favorite song, outside of skimble Shanks, because I'm biased, is definitely memory. I love that song. I always have this is,

[25:33] Mike Abrams: this is not looking well. For my very last question here, I think we're gonna get a Grizz defense here. Okay, before we get to that, you might not. You might okay, I love this. Okay, so my last question before we get to that question, is, if one of the cats was to become a Tiktok star, which cat do you think would be the Tiktok star?

[25:52] Speaker 2: Oh, which cat would be a Tiktok star? Okay, well, Tugger would definitely be a Tiktok star. Tugger knows how to grab an audience, and that's the number one thing. Getting views on Tiktok is you have to catch their attention. And I'd say out of all the cats, Tugger is the best at grabbing attention. Yeah, missed out. I think too. He's flashy, he's cute, like people would like him. I go with those two.

[26:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I think I've spent more time thinking about this than I should. There's, there's those two. I think bomb and Victoria would be the one creating a bunch of dances? Sure, yes. And then I think there's a world where Buster Jones is a tick tock influencer with, like, cooking or something.

[26:30] Speaker 2: Oh, I see it. I totally see it. There are those lifestyle Yeah, talkers that, like, you just kind of want their life. Yeah,

[26:37] Mike Abrams: he'd be neat. That's buster. He'd be niche, like he'd have, he'd have a very core demographic that he'd be going after. I would follow that, but I would follow that. That's the That's my wild card pick there. Um, okay, my final question, the million dollar question, which we will spend some time on here, is, I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. And so I would love to hear from you, Chris, maybe skimble. Who do you think is the right Jellicle choice? And what is your defense for them? I have

[27:07] Speaker 2: two answers to this question. Okay. First off, I will say I don't, Chris, watching the show outside of being in it. I don't. I would not have picked Grizabella. I completely agree with you. Amazing. Wrong cat. The wrong cat died, period. Um, but I have an answer that I would have picked if I had just been an audience member of the show, okay, and not in it, and that would be Gus. So team Gus, like, yep, completely separate from me being in the show and knowing what I know about the show, and I would like just as an audience member going in blind, watching the show, I would probably say Gus

[27:43] Speaker 3: should have been picked. And what's your reason for Gus? Almost in the same

[27:47] Speaker 2: way as Grizabella, he looks like he needs it, like he's just so old and he's suffering from palsy, and he's so sweet, and it's just his time. No more suffering for him.

[28:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So it's the criteria is need and worthiness, right? And

[28:05] Speaker 2: that's this answer. It's about need. Yes, I have an answer of who I think is the most worthy, okay? And who should have been picked in reality, now that I know all about the show, and that would be skimble janks, okay? He is the hardest worker up there. He's behind the scenes. He's taking care of people. He makes I think skimble Shanks is the tribe. I think he makes it go round. So here's

[28:28] Mike Abrams: a counter debate to that, which I think is interesting is because I do think it's like, that's the same argument for Jenny. Is skimble and Jenny are like, they're there. The counter argument is that if they leave, then who's stepping up and taking over to do that? Like the tribes survive if they don't, if they're not there to kind of keep stuff in order. That's

[28:48] Speaker 2: a great question. Could the tribe survive without skimble shanks? I don't know. Literally,

[28:51] Mike Abrams: the trains will literally go off the tracks if you're not there.

[28:56] Speaker 2: I know someone's got to be learning that. Yeah, someone's got to be ready, because skimble deserves his moment like that day will come. So I

[29:03] Mike Abrams: totally agree. I think that's what makes skimble and Jenny interesting, is, is they make a clear picture that Old Deuteronomy has a successor of monkeys. Yes. And it's clear that there's, like, Demeter and bomb or sister, you know? It's like, there's a couple other people that they're together. And it's like, you could say they're part of there. The harder part, I think, is with skimble, it's like, if you leave, there is no backup person to kind of come and take over with the trains. If Jenny leaves, there's nobody there to kind of like, teach the cockroaches and mice or whatever else to go. It's like, it's a very specific job, and so it doesn't show. The show doesn't do a good enough job for me giving the okay they're ready to go to pick them,

[29:46] Speaker 2: right? I you know what hearing that I do agree that the tribe may not be ready for them to go, but the question is, are they still worthy? Should they still get to go like do they is that they're also responsibility just to wait and. Till someone steps up to the plate. That's a

[30:02] Mike Abrams: good that is a very fair point, like it's still, they still are the most deserving in your eyes. Yeah, they've put in their time, yeah. So they don't need to worry about They're leaving. Anyways, it's somebody else's problem. I kind of love that. Hey, you get to clean up the mess. Okay, so if you were to rank, well, let's go back a different let's, let's take this question back a step. If you're Old Deuteronomy, you've just given two very different criteria with two very different answers. Yeah. How is he picking? Like, what is his decision every year?

[30:37] Speaker 2: That is a great question. I think. I mean, we know what happens. So we clearly know what his criteria is.

[30:45] Mike Abrams: But, well, I we assume that it's redemption.

[30:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, the Yeah. I think what I, what I, what I see in Old Deuteronomy that makes this show what it is, is his heart. And so I think he really decides what's going to be best for the tribe this time around, and obviously what's going to teach everyone a lesson. That's his job is. He is bestowing wisdom upon us. So I, I think that's how he makes his decision. How can we all learn and grow? Does that make sense?

[31:18] Mike Abrams: It does. I've heard this a lot of like, it's a it's he's got to teach a lesson. I've heard that he might not have made his decision, or he actually had probably had a different decision made when then Grizabella comes back, and that's where a lesson,

[31:31] Speaker 2: he had a different decision made. That's what I I'm playing that every night.

[31:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that he was that it was probably Gus and then grizabell comes back,

[31:39] Speaker 2: playing that. It's me. When we crawl into old do for me to make his choice, and I'm brushing off my vest, I'm ready to stand up and say thank you. And then Dun, dun,

[31:48] Mike Abrams: dun. I Okay, I love that. So you're like, You're the first act. You're ready to go. It's like, it's, there's no doubt it's you, and you're playing it every night. And then all of a sudden, Grizabella comes in and ruins your time. Okay? The challenge I run into with this show, and why I've debated this for so long, is that we only get one ball. We get 41 years of one ball, but we only get one ball, which means that I don't know last year's criteria or choice. I think you're one of your other cast mates, assumes that they were the choice, that Victoria was last year's choice, and that's why they're being the the you know, in this year, I don't know next year's choice, and so I think it's really hard to identify his criteria. I think that's a gripe of mine with Good Old Deuteronomy. Is that, like, I don't think he has any idea what he's doing, and I think he's just kind of winging it, and I think that that's why he's making the wrong decision here, and it's time for him

[32:44] Speaker 2: to go, yeah. I mean, that's the case a lot of the time. Like we think these people know exactly what they're thinking and what they're doing, and they they're just, they're winging it, just like the rest of it, yeah, it's, I hear that. Okay,

[32:55] Mike Abrams: so I hadn't thought about that way. So you do? You think any other cast members, not cast members, characters like, but play that same thing of like, do you think like a let's take Gus is like, I'm getting picked now, and then old dude, Ronnie comes back, and that's why you all hate her, is because you realize that that ruins your chance.

[33:14] Speaker 2: You know, I actually don't think anyone else is playing that angle in that moment. They could be, I'm honestly too busy brushing myself off, like learning to win, to even notice. I

[33:26] Mike Abrams: mean, that feels very skin, but like you're in your world. It's like, this is my this is me. Like, I'm definitely the pick. And then it goes, Okay, so do you is there? Do you have a baby graze in the first number tour? Do you have any like, do you show any animosity to baby Grizz in that first

[33:44] Speaker 2: number? Should you though should be that's a great question. I don't think so. I think for me, where my understanding of that is, that is baby Grizz and baby Grizz was a different had a different relationship than this Grizz does see,

[33:57] Mike Abrams: I always thought baby Grizz was like the reincarnation of that Grizz. And so it's like the, you know, the foreshadowing of the decision, yeah. And so if that's the case, then I think you should be, like, angrily dancing around her.

[34:12] Speaker 2: Maybe I should, and we have a moment. So maybe today that will happen organically.

[34:16] Mike Abrams: That's, that's my that has been my goal from day one of this podcast, is to influence how people perform in the show live by giving different scenarios that are plausible but not like clearly stated totally. So I love you're gonna let me know when you play it tonight and you go in and you like hiss at baby Grizz, because she's gonna steal your thunder in an hour. Man. Let me know how that go. Let me know how that goes. Okay, I love it. This has been fun. I have there's a lot of things I hadn't thought about. Like I always thought skimball was in the running, but I never really knew where to place him, because it also feels like he's in the tribe, but also by taking the train every day, not fully in the tribe. And so it's like, is he even eligible? That. Always my question is, is he even an eligible cat for the heavy side layer? And your answer is like, of course, he is. He was the choice until Chris came back and ruined it. You know, good old Kim Kardashian came back and stole thunder.

[35:13] Speaker 2: It's always me versus Kim Kardashian, and Kim always wins story, story

[35:17] Mike Abrams: of everyone's life, right? Yeah. Amazing. What haven't I asked you about the show you're doing it every night. Like, what else? What have we covered today that you were like, Oh, my God, I can't believe we didn't talk about this. What

[35:31] Speaker 2: haven't we talked about? What did you tell me your choice? Who was your choice at the end? I

[35:36] Mike Abrams: think the logical answer for me, as I've done 70 plus episodes of this has turned into Gus Sure. The very first time I watched it, I watched Leona Lewis, and I thought I was watching a weird X Factor. And so in the X Factor, they always have a history of combining characters into or characters combining singers into groups, one direction, fifth harmonies of the world. So I wanted to send tug of police together, took stuff, please. Misto and Tugger together. That's

[36:04] Speaker 2: cute. That was like that when you saw the show, like you left and said, that was like, your initial thought. I don't

[36:09] Mike Abrams: think I put like any thought into it. At first, I walked out, like most of your friends who go see it was just like, Huh? That was an experience. And then it was I kind of I saw it again, and then I made a joke about it one time, and then when the 2019 movie came out, the trailer came out for that, that's when I made the joke that grizzabel was the wrong choice. And said, put the picture of that. And said, Welcome to my TED Talk. And that is how this whole podcast started. And then I was like, Okay, well, here would be my answer to that question, and it was took off. Police took Sophie's, depending on which version I've said both, I like that. I think it's, yeah, a little Burton Ernie going up together. There's all the fan fiction is written about the two of them, like they're a unit together. To me, it's so

[36:54] Speaker 2: funny, because doing the show, I never really thought of that, like I've seen it on the internet. And like, Zach Bravo, who played Tucker originally for us, like, was really into that. And, like, that's something he played into on his social media too, but it's not something that I want, like, being a part of the show. I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a that's a duo. The

[37:13] Mike Abrams: only, I don't see that, the only thing is, is they kind of, like, introduce each other a little bit like, I think was it Tugger introduces Mustafa is in the beginning of the song. There's, like, some version of that. And then there's a little bit of an annoyance in one of the songs that's like them again. So I think there's that type of like, they have a couple moments that people can, like, lean in on, and then people have run with that. And they have, like, run with that, because if you read the fan fiction, like, it is aggressive, yeah? And they run and the pictures are aggressive, yeah,

[37:48] Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of the fan fiction, very fun. Yeah, very I love, I do love that. Like, that's something special about the show, is that people take it and run.

[37:57] Mike Abrams: I The fans are passionate and yes, have a good time with it. Have found, I think, you know, as I've interviewed a few super fans, and I think I kind of have noticed with everybody is, and this is true for for everybody, not just the super fans, but there's probably one cat that you can relate to like, there's some personality trait of you in one of the characters. And so it gives you like. It relates to so many different people, depending where you are, what's going on. And that's what's unique about it, is it takes you out of this kind of, like current world, into this, like, very strange but creative and fun and unique world. And you've got somebody that you could say, I kind of feel like, that's me, that's my that's my cat. And so I think people like that. It's

[38:44] Mike Abrams: Well, this has been super fun. A couple things I love that we got to do, the Kardashians too. I always love when we can compare cats to other people. How can we stay in touch with you on social media and everything else we got going on

[38:58] Speaker 2: totally all my social media is my Instagram, my Tiktok, my Twitter. Are all at salvagio underscore. Chris and I also have a YouTube channel, which is called According to Chris. If you look up Chris Salvaggio, you'll find it. I do a lot of vlogging here on tour. It's a lot of fun. You want to keep up Awesome.

[39:17] Mike Abrams: Well, we'll link all that as well so everyone can see it in the description and get right to it, and you can see all the fun Tiktok dances and the vlogs and everything else that's going on. I

[39:28] Speaker 2: also have to say before I before we go, is that I love the Michael Jordan painting behind you. I'm a big basketball fan. Surprise. I

[39:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, well, I love it. I have mostly sports behind me, and so it's always a unique thing for the people whenever I talk about cats, because I've got pure sports. I mean, I've got Jordan, and I've got Jack the golfer, and then this, I'm not doing a good job pointing here. This is a quilt that is all Indiana Pacers T shirts, right? Oh, so I also have that basketball. And then I think that's it. Near I used to have a pillow. I think I still have a pillow. Maybe if I move, I have an Indian pacers teach pillow at a Google pillow. I love that. So yes, those are my behind. You're also in currently in Milwaukee, when we're recording this with game seven of that team playing basketball. Yes,

[40:22] Speaker 2: the bucks, when we had a game the other night packed, it's

[40:26] Mike Abrams: packed, and they lost, so it was not as eventful. Would have been a pretty wild experience had they won there in that game. But yeah, so play today, while we're recording. This will come out later. So, yeah, well, this was amazing. So thank you for being an amazing guest. Yay. Thank you for having me. This was fun, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast, breakdown of cats atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you'll see the podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check out our website. The wrong cat died.