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[0:12] Mike Abrams: to the rocket diet the podcast. Break down the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and the episode you are about to listen to was recorded live at Broadway con in New York City, in the Marriott Marquis, in a room that happened to be called the Winter Garden, which was perfect for us. This was on Sunday, July 23 and we had some amazing guests that you're going to hear from. We had one of the most incredible debates about some very, very, very random parts of cats, some of the lore and the history and the fun and the canon, and we just had a blast. So what you're hearing is going to be in front of a live audience. So you will hear the audience. We talk to the audience. You'll be able to hear some of their questions, some of their thoughts. And we had the most amazing event live at broadwaycon. So please enjoy this episode. Know that this was recorded with a lot of people in live so you will hear some of the background noise and a lot of their stuff, but enjoy the episode.

[1:07] Speaker 1: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there.

[1:12] Speaker 2: I'm a wrong one died. I'm a wrong one died. You

[1:20] Mike Abrams: Music. Welcome to the broadcast. I the podcast breakdown the cat's atrophy. I'm yours. Mike Abrams and thank you for being live at Broadway con. We are excited. We are in the most appropriately named room, the Winter Garden. And I am very excited to have this amazing group of panelists with me today. I'm actually gonna let you all introduce yourselves so you can say who you are and maybe your cat's relationship, because all of you have some ties to cats.

[1:47] Speaker 3: Yes. Hi, I'm Jonalyn saxer. I was a swing in the most recent revival of cats on Broadway. I covered bomb ballerina Demeter, Cassandra, tantamile and Jenny. Any dots?

[2:06] Speaker 4: I'm Will Anderson. I run a theater content creation brand with my wife, Rachel Joyce, called the theater lovers. And I was in cats as a kid, and then was in a regional production as a swing and just cats was the literal first Broadway show I ever saw.

[2:29] Speaker 5: I'm Hank Santos. I was just Rum Tum Tugger on the sixth national tour. I also covered bomb Valley Arena, Demeter, Jenny Annie dots and one more than she did.

[2:44] Speaker 6: Super impressive. I am Rachel Joyce, the affirmation other half of the theater lovers. I was running the cats tour social media of the last leg of the tour. So this is my first time meeting Hank in prison. But we have talked a lot, and this is

[3:03] Mike Abrams: the first time I've had all of them on as guests before. First time any of us have met in person, too. This is also true. Super exciting to have everyone here. We're gonna do something a little different this year. The past Broadway cons, we've just debated the Jellicle choice. If you know my stance is, I don't think Chris Bella should be the right cat to die, so I've argued that at length over the years, but we want to do something a little different this year, because I realized over 125 episodes that I've accidentally sparked some controversy with the fans, because there's not a consistent opinion on some of the head cannons. And so what we want to do today is we're going to do an old school style debate. So I've got two teams. I've got team Tugger and I've got team bomb ball arena, and we are going to throw out some of the most controversial or mixed opinion views of cats. And then whoever's most passionate is going to raise their hand, and you'll get to pick the side you want to argue, and the other group is going to argue the other side. And then our wonderful Alan Seales, and I will be Old Deuteronomy, and we will judge who wins. So get ready. I want to start with the first one that actually sparked this idea, which is I made a meme about Demeter and bound ballerinas sexual energy. And then I had a lot of people say they're sisters. And then I had a lot of people say they're not sisters. So and I threw it up on social media. I got a complete 5050, split. So that is gonna be our first argument, our bond value, arena and Demeter, sisters or friends? I'll

[4:36] Speaker 3: say stronger. I was gonna say I will take the friends side. Okay,

[4:40] Mike Abrams: we got friends already on here. What's the argument

[4:43] Speaker 3: for friends? I think, with all the history between them, if you added in the relationship of sisters with Demeter being caught with Macavity, I think like sisterhood, you would have a little bit more protection. You would have a No, don't come here with me and my cavity. No, don't do this. Like if. Be more protective. Instead, they kind of both went through the same thing, and I just think as friends, they would have done that. And bomb is still a little protective of Demeter. Demeter has all her PTSD stuff like, you know, not ever said in any of the lyrics. We all just know this. None of

[5:17] Mike Abrams: this is ever said in the lyrics. All of these questions are not covered as a

[5:25] Speaker 4: lyricist. It's just obvious that dramaturgically, it makes sense.

[5:30] Speaker 3: And so I think dramaturgically, with their relationships, I just feel like it's a friends thing, not sisters, because I think familial you have more of a fight and a control and friends like sometimes you let your friends also get in trouble. Well, Hank,

[5:48] Mike Abrams: you played both demeters, yeah, famous, among others, so you're gonna argue sisters now,

[5:55] Speaker 5: I guess I yeah, let me, let me take out Hank's actual opinion, because I think they're friends. This actually doesn't work for the panel. Abandon all of your so I'm gonna drop in real quick as someone who would take the sisters route, and it would make sense I see, like, a older, younger sister vibe between bomb and Demeter. I mean, there's definitely, like, a protective nature of bomb that she puts over Demeter. Like, Demeter is definitely like, there's moments where she's a lot stronger and sort of to herself, but then you have any Macavity scare, and immediately that goes away. And we had a lot of moments where it was like, you see Bong take her stance over Demeter, which is something that a sister would do. So that's my argument. Love it, and you can take that with a grain of salt, because I don't even buy it.

[6:50] Speaker 6: I have a chaotic thought, and I'm gonna put away thinking cap to this.

[7:00] Speaker 6: for days. Okay, thank you for laughing at it. I think sisters. I think they both dated Macavity, and it's that sister rivalry of you stole my man terrible. We hate to see it chaotic. I came to bring the chaos this morning.

[7:22] Mike Abrams: They don't, they don't get any less chaotic of canon. So get ready. All right. Alan, actually, audience, too. Where are we voting? Are we voting? Over here on Team bomb Valley arena. Show hands that sword

[7:36] Speaker 6: and say that they were lovers, lovers, okay, friends and lovers,

[7:48] Mike Abrams: Okay? Any, any team Tugger votes, all right, it seems like it is the friends slash lovers is the answer. This one absolutely

[8:01] Mike Abrams: the next one is who is going to be in charge next? So there's a theory that it's going to be monkey strap, and then there's a theory that I will call the sports bank term the field, which is everyone else, either Old Deuteronomy doesn't leave, or somebody else, like a Cassandra, or somebody else. So is it monk, or is it somebody else that's going to be next, in charge of the Jellicle Tribe, who wants to start?

[8:24] Speaker 5: I'll take that. I'll field this one, because I have a lot of opinions. So I think there's a hierarchy of like, like, an order, so to speak. Obviously, monk is first. I think monk wants to be first. I think, dude, it's the obvious choice. But then beneath him, I think Plato is like a close second. So if something were to happen to monk, if he wasn't able to take over for whatever reason, say he lost in the cavity fight, should drastically change the show. I think Plato would have stepped in. I think third in command is actually Tugger. But I think Tugger just wants it, because he wants it, and then once he gets it, he's like, this sucks, dude. Like, Command people and, you know, like, be the leader. Like, I just want to have fun. You know what I mean? So I think it's there. And I think he's like, a legitimate choice at a point, but I don't think it would last very long. He's

[9:24] Mike Abrams: Prince Harry. Yeah, basically

[9:25] Speaker 6: lost the power, not the responsibility. Okay, so your votes, wonk, do you

[9:29] Speaker 3: want to take the field? I'm gonna throw a wrench in this, and I'm gonna say I don't think any of those are actually in line to take the position of Old Deuteronomy. I feel like Gus would be next, like old wise, like, I feel like Gus is kind of there. And if you need someone to sit on stage at a revision, be like, that would be Gus. I feel like monk is a separate is occupying a separate position of, like, MC, leader of ceremonies. And like, maybe when monk gets older. Or somebody else will take the MC position, and he will then, like, take a break before taking over the old dude position. I feel like those are two separate it's not like a line thing, because I just feel like, you know, old dude, like he's old. I feel like he's not, you know, it's like, if old dude passed and suddenly somebody the same age as everybody else is like, let me decide. I just feel like that wouldn't fly. And so the reasonable next step would be Gus.

[10:29] Speaker 4: It's, it's the it's replacing the pope with an even older Pope. Yes, it's

[10:37] Speaker 5: gonna be the best week of Gus. Is like, I think duty kins was young at one point when he when he took the throne. You know what I mean? Because everyone you have to build that respect over a long period of time, you know. And he's obviously been around for so long that, like, and man Gus doesn't remember dinner, you know, like that, that that would be like when creed took over on the office, that would be nuts. Does

[11:05] Mike Abrams: is older Romney ever leaving?

[11:13] Speaker 3: yeah, I mean, I don't think anything's ever if we're gonna believe that, like somebody just lifts up to the sky, I'll believe that, like dude just like, is there? Like, is dude even alive? Is he, you know, some kind of Specter. That's

[11:26] Mike Abrams: question. That's question number four. We're gonna get to that part of the argument here soon. Okay, we're gonna take votes. Team Bobby, Team Tugger, Team Tugger. Tugger.

[11:47] Speaker 7: Bucha is actually older son, yes, yes. So that's where I feel like he's he would be next in line. Because, I mean, if he's

[12:09] Mike Abrams: We will edit this part out. All right, next one, and I'm going to turn to you as we've discussed this. And this is the one that has all of the, not all, a majority of the fan fiction, and the majority of the fan art is Tugger and mesophiles. Are they best friends? Boy Band ish, or, you know what they are? Are they together? So that's gonna throw it out there. This one's very split, or at least the art. Well, the art's not split. The art is one way internet

[12:44] Speaker 5: there's zero chance of debating this, yeah, but I'm not going to field this question.

[13:05] Speaker 5: put me and our most awfully Ibn together as roommates. Like, wait early on. And I was like, that seems like a little too on the nose. I was like, you couldn't have put me with like, no Jerry or somebody.

[13:20] Speaker 6: Where do you think that comes from? Like, as far as people shipping the

[13:24] Speaker 5: the two characters who is the most opposite from Tugger, like, in all in almost every conceivable way, like a short, well put together, quiet cat, you know, because, like all the other cats, in a way, could have something related to Tucker like mumu Jerry's a little chaotic. There's like a playful side of like pouncable, or like an aggressive side to tumble Brutus like, but Tugger in liking things that aren't like the exact opposite of what you want him to like. It would be the almost mute, quiet little ballet cat. You know what I mean?

[14:02] Mike Abrams: Do you you do the introduction to his song too, right? Because that's where I think a lot of it stems from, yeah,

[14:13] Mike Abrams: hear the boy band version.

[14:16] Speaker 4: I think it could be viewed as Tucker sings the song. Misopolies has the moves. It could be like a Milli Vanilli moment. It could be like everyone has their strengths. What was it? Which one? Oh gosh, which one of NSYNC was like the really great dancer. They all danced very well. This isn't a really

[14:41] Speaker 4: Cody Ricks babe. But it's, it's supporting each other platonically, and then, like, if that leads to something else cool, but, but it definitely starts as, I can't even remember. The point was, it was friends, boy band versus was the answer? Awful. Some others. Yeah,

[15:00] Mike Abrams: so you're on the boy bands.

[15:06] Speaker 3: I think it can be dependent on the production and who's playing, misophys and Tugger. Because I think except for the introduction of the song, which you could say, like, why is Tugger introducing this song? Does he decide, like, I'm gonna introduce something. I'm gonna introduce the magic one. Haha, he could decide to take over. Or they could be like a boy band, like, because the song is like, doesn't really say anything except pesto, you know, doesn't help the friends case. But you know, it, there's so much of what happens, I think, because in our production, Tyler and Ricky shared a dressing room and played into that, I think, and had fun with that. And so when you look at the side moments, the moments where we have a little bit more freedom on the stage, I think it's up to the actress to decide that, okay,

[15:58] Speaker 5: to be fair. It was never explicitly said it was like someone showed us the Tumblr one day, and we ran with it,

[16:06] Speaker 3: like, yeah, it's not something taught by the associates.

[16:09] Speaker 5: No, yeah. Christy Cartwright never said anything about that. Let's just make that very clear for her perspective, as I dug

[16:16] Mike Abrams: into the venom, it was the first thing that I found is like, if you search and I took the boy band route, because I saw Leona Lewis, and I thought I saw the X Factor, which has a history of putting like singers together. So I was like, oh, Tiger mosse, is there gonna be the next one direction? And yeah, but I didn't think about the relationship until I started reading the head canon. And then it's a lot. It's a deep dive. If you find the fan fiction, it's all of it, and there are some like 1,023rd novel, 1000 word stories about the relationship. So feel free to dig in on your own time. Let's move on to the question we were actually just a little bit discussing, which is Old Deuteronomy with his character, is he wise and all knowing, or is he more sinister serial killer? Ish,

[17:19] Speaker 3: like that's a hard question as somebody who was in the show to be asked, because also, I will say I knew nothing about cats before getting cast in it, and then I stood in the back watching the show. When I replaced him, he was like, who's Cassandra? And so a lot of my opinions are based on, then my after work, of my on stage, experience of being the characters with the other characters, and there's just so many. Our old do Q is just so kind and loving and generous on stage and off. And as act, you know, it's like we're all so excited, and it's like he gave so much back to us. So I will strongly say wise all knowing, okay? And

[18:11] Mike Abrams: easy, from the crowd is immediately cold. Okay, so you're gonna argue the serial killer version. Oh, yeah,

[18:17] Speaker 6: I think that's obvious. He kills a cat once a year,

[18:25] Speaker 6: he makes them put up. Okay, so I feel almost like, I don't know if you guys are fans of like Ru Paul's drag race, but it's like it's very much like when they do the episodes that are like variety shows. But instead of lip syncing for your life, you're lip syncing for your death. The RuPaul. RuPaul, wow, nope. Didn't think so much of your ear. Paul's not listening. This side

[19:05] Speaker 6: When I said chaotic, I really meant it. No, yeah, I think Old Deuteronomy is very clearly unwell.

[19:15] Speaker 4: Everyone leaves the stage and he's like, I think I'm gonna sit right here.

[19:19] Mike Abrams: We'll invite people up to come take a selfie with him in intermission. Well, I know we're one person in the crowd's voting, but how's the rest of the crowd voting? Are we voting on Team Tugger or team bombarding arena? I feel like movie

[19:30] Speaker 1: version there, yeah. But if we're not even talking about that

[19:36] Mike Abrams: stage version, movie version, okay, so you're

[19:39] Speaker 3: saying if you've seen cats, you're going up and taking a picture with a cult leader. So I'm just saying you are also a part of this discussion. You thought that while watching the show, do you have gone up at intermission? He so cares.

[19:56] Speaker 6: I think too, just like a quick running this. Social media and interacting with fans. It's very obvious to me that it's a cult, so maybe that's where I'm like, and not in a bad way, like fun cult. I'm Team cats cult.

[20:15] Speaker 6: passionate and I'm here for it. Yeah, you are a joke, for sure. Whatever that means. Yeah,

[20:21] Mike Abrams: that's that we didn't we're not covered, yeah, actually, okay, we're gonna go back to the questionable relationship. So Mongo. Jerry Rubble, teaser, are they siblings, or are they relationship, or friends or relationship? I

[20:36] Speaker 6: have a thought, may I sorry I feel like you don't do a cartwheel like that with anybody but a sibling that's like, that be for yourself, bro. How embarrassing I feel like, like, that's the type of routine that you put together to convince your parents, like, to give like, a sleepover with your cousin. Like, it's like that kind of like, there's no universe outside of that. So that's where I stand. Sorry, I'm taking the stance.

[21:09] Mike Abrams: about that. Your cast definitely did not agree with that stance. Dude.

[21:12] Speaker 5: No, our cast did. It drove me crazy because I was like, they went

[21:21] Speaker 5: I said, Your brother's sister. So I agree. My opinions are very

[21:29] Speaker 3: easily taught and it is imposed upon the actors that they are not siblings. Wow,

[21:41] Speaker 3: said, right, so I and that's what our Mungo Jerry rumble teaser said. And I've heard the actor, the actors be like, they're not siblings. Why does everyone tantamount corco Pat are the sibling, right? They're the twins, right?

[21:53] Speaker 5: But they were called the chaos twins by a fan. And I was like, That is funny. Like, so I swore.

[22:14] Speaker 3: I've never directed a production of Cats, but for the reasons that we have been taught and again, most of the story, as I found out while doing it, is not in the script or the lyrics, but is just told

[22:31] Speaker 3: believe they are told they are not siblings. Okay, so that's mine. So it's official.

[22:35] Mike Abrams: So who in the crowd wants to vote against the production team? Who have blessed this. I mean, I have for most of my podcasts, Bonnie and Clyde. Exactly, yes, no,

[22:55] Speaker 5: what I might Yeah. I argued this for so long on tour, and now I don't even remember what stance I

[23:04] Speaker 6: took. Like that just means people have made some good arguments on both

[23:07] Mike Abrams: sides. Yeah, yeah, your cast definitely did not go siblings. They were no they were

[23:12] Speaker 5: trying to win approval, dating and then cuddling. Yeah,

[23:16] Mike Abrams: it was, that was the whole thing that they talked about. Hot. Yeah,

[23:21] Speaker 3: they were siblings, the crimes would be like mom, but like, as a Bonnie and Clyde duo, like, when you're in a relationship, the crimes are a little bit more, like

[23:29] Speaker 5: heightened, heightened. I think at one point I thought, like, you know, like Pulp Fiction the beginning, in the end, there's that couple that robs the diner, you know, like, that was kind of the vibe I was getting too. I don't remember. I think I just heard chaos twins, and I thought that was really funny. And I was like, Yeah, that makes sense, right? Okay,

[23:49] Mike Abrams: so it sounds like we're voting on Team bound ballerina on this one. Unfortunately, you

[24:01] Mike Abrams: cartwheel. Okay, let's talk about Grizabella. When she leaves the tribe. Does she go to be part of Macavity crime gang, or does she go somewhere else to do something else? I'll leave that part very open ended.

[24:15] Speaker 3: Do you mean like when she left originally? When she left originally? Yes, I'll stand firmly on she left to join McCabe's gang to be with Macavity.

[24:24] Mike Abrams: Okay, so she's crime gang, or just to be with Him, to

[24:27] Speaker 3: be with him, because that's why bomb Bellary need to meet her. Hate her because she went to be with Macavity. They both were, at one point, pulled in to the Macavity group, gang, what can you call it? And they both were able to pull themselves out. And one of the reasons they pity her, but they also hate her, is that she is everything they were able to not be. She was the future that they avoided, and they looked down on her because she wasn't able to pull herself out and rejoin the Jellicle cats.

[24:57] Speaker 5: Okay, my theory. Where did she go? Is that Grizabella, get this is monk and Tugger mom. That's what I have heard. And we shun her, not because we know why we Shun, but because we've been told just throughout the tribe the whole time. We don't talk to her. So like there was, like an experience, I guess, where either she, as the glamor cat, left and pursued a different lifestyle that wasn't sticking to the tribe and raising monk and Tugger and Macavity the third dude, bro, and they shun her just because it's like, that's like, the unspoken thing in the tribe is like, she's not allowed in. And then when she comes back and talks about memory and regret and all those things, it's like, oh, okay, forgiveness is key, yeah.

[25:57] Mike Abrams: So that makes Grizabella and Old Deuteronomy your parents, yeah, okay, yeah. Keep

[26:09] Mike Abrams: You never actually said where she went

[26:18] Mike Abrams: baby Grizz, and then she leaves. Comes back. She's in the ceiling, right. Okay, any audience thoughts? We got anybody that strong stage?

[26:33] Speaker 7: Okay, so I have a theory that Grizabella went to go kind of pursue, like a Gus the theater cat moment and go to theater, and she kind of fell into, like a wrong path. And I had, like a crisp might have been a sex worker at one point, for sure, and um, so if the tribe didn't agree with that when she came back, they probably shunned her because they didn't agree with the choices she made. But I don't think that. I think what happened was, is she didn't just go decide to do it, because her time in the theater was not what she wanted it to be. She went, she kind of just fell into it. And I would assume that because she left, she had nowhere to go, and so she didn't expect fanfare, but I think she was just looking for her family to come back and accept her. But I feel very strongly about wasabella

[27:33] Speaker 5: as well. She witted about the no man's life. Yes, yes. Who knows the lyrics? I was

[27:39] Speaker 3: literally just going through that, because that's like, that section is my main point of like, demeanor and bomb are singing that. And the reason they sing that is because they have a shared kind of past with Grizabella. So I do think she wandered the no man's land. I think Macavity somehow got her into maybe was her. What's that called? This is not a great word, sugar daddy. No, there we go. I was like, that's not the it is early on my day off. Words are not coming, um, but, and he got tired of her, and she kind of like again, probably went into sex work, wandered the no man's land of Tottenham Court, whatever, you know, and kind of fell out of that and into disrepute and disrepair. I kind of thought

[28:27] Speaker 5: the bomb and Demeter thing was like his bomb and and Tugger are often shipped, and Demeter and monk have been shipped in the past. So it's kind of like we can be disgusted with how she treated it, because we never really. I mean, Monk does like, but I think he knows, I think Tucker's feelings are a little spared when it comes to the story of his mom, because it was never like, that was just like, in the back when she was on. I was like, Oh, gross. And bunk was always like, and so I was like, Oh yeah, that's kind of like you treated those guys. So we're like, You're not welcome here anymore. You know what I mean? Yeah,

[29:02] Mike Abrams: I always thought that grizzabel left to be a performer, and then had her which were above the once upon one more time. But I always thought she had, like, her bald Brit moment, where that was like she she was going through it, and that was the moment where she's like, I gotta come back and have my redemption story. So that's how I think it's a little bit of both on these, but I think it's contested. So it sounds like though the Macavity part

[29:25] Speaker 3: is true by the associate during for that singing section. Well, you guys, you demeanor, and bomb. You guys, I play both of them. So yeah, I don't know

[29:41] Speaker 3: because I remember thinking like, and I just kept getting the note, like, no, Demeter doesn't feel that way. Like, it's like, you know, bomb feels this way. And Demeter feels this way because, like, she couldn't make, you know, bombs proud of herself because she made it away from the cavity, and Grizabella couldn't do that, and now she's lost her life, and Demeter feels for her a little bit more than bomb. Because Demeter also got wrapped up and has had a bomb pulled Demeter out of that situation. Demeter didn't leave because Bella didn't have anybody to do that for her. So I was told by an associate that's always gonna be my fight

[30:14] Mike Abrams: again. Who on Star I would like to call cap? Who would like to argue against producers again? Okay, team,

[30:24] Speaker 5: huh? What does that mean? Cat means you're lying, bro. Oh, yeah.

[30:36] Speaker 4: Today, I was hearing call cat. There's like, you can't call a cat. They won't respond to that.

[30:42] Mike Abrams: All right, Where's, where's our vote? We're going more your strikes are getting. I mean, I don't

[30:48] Speaker 5: know. I just don't think I've been keeping score. I'm gonna get my own score. Yeah, that one tally was funny.

[31:01] Mike Abrams: Okay, we're gonna go back to relationships. So skimble shanks and Tugger are they frenemies, or are they friends?

[31:12] Speaker 5: I like frenemies, okay, only because there was our skimble Jack zamborsky was very big on in the beginning of the show, hated tuggers guts, and then towards the end, like his feature, we had so many like moments where it was kind of like winning him over, sort of towards the end. That's like case specific, I think. But it was also like in Tugger, there's a moment where, in the choreo, he runs up and, like, gives Tugger a little kick and cast his Vic, hold him back and throw him back, like, and they are on Tucker arms, you know what I mean. Okay,

[31:52] Mike Abrams: so this question actually comes from your cast, because of Tyler and because of some of the decisions Tyler made with skimble, they were friends, and so they had more friendly moments than normally you would see. And people start to fan, start to notice that, start to ask, like, hey, these two aren't supposed to be friends, but they seem friends. So that's where this question actually stems from, is that's the backstory and history of it, and Tyler has answered a little bit of his version of it. But what was Tyler's answer? Tyler was they were really good friends off stage. Yeah. So

[32:24] Speaker 3: they have a lot of trouble. There is, like, a certain amount of freedom, like we are given, again, like certain relationships that they're like, well, these are the young cats and these are the older cats. And you know this, this is your best friend. This is you have this history, but if it's not explicitly stated, like it is up to the actors, and just like with any musical creation, like you can if you have the freedom not to stand next to somebody you don't like, or you have an option to stand next to your best friend, like you're gonna take it because you're doing the show eight times a week, and it's more fun to improv with someone you really love. So I'm sure that also was a part of that. Okay,

[33:05] Speaker 4: it's like, even with the guidelines set by the creators of a piece, there's still so much freedom in the performers, of course, but also in the way that the audience interprets that information. Like, I don't want to say, but we can say, Jellicle, death of the author, maybe,

[33:22] Speaker 3: oh yeah, yeah. So what is my side friends? Not you're

[33:26] Mike Abrams: on non friends. I had

[33:29] Speaker 5: kind of a funny experience, though, like I was I showed you rehearsals. I had nine days of rehearsal before I started the show, because I was doing another show overseas, in Japan. And when I actually found out that I was gonna be Tucker, I was like, I'm not gonna make it like, because I'm like, way overseas. And like, my show doesn't end until the end of August, and they started, like, September 2 or something. So I had to show up really late. So they were just concerned with, like, you're gonna stand here and you're gonna move here, and then you're gonna do this dance, and then just pick whatever else, you know what I mean, it was like, just make your own adventures sort of with, like, the guidelines of, like the validity and, like, the general structure of the backstory. So there was a lot of things that we were doing early on that were like, wrong, like, because I was right and wrong, except for one against the what some people would go with and like, it evolved in a way, like, also, like, as your relationships with, like, the people playing the cats evolve. You're like, yeah, this would be so funny if, like, right here we did this, or if, like, if we did this instead, or whatever, you know. So, like, early on, I don't even think I noticed skimble ever.

[34:45] Speaker 3: That was my question. I was like, do they as I was thinking of, like, do they interact? Rarely?

[34:50] Speaker 6: He calls, he calls Tugger, a terrible bore, right? That's the No, that's

[34:54] Speaker 5: some not ours. That was Alonzo and monk. Interesting, yeah, and um. So like, rarely do we interact. But then, like, as as you're doing, you know, as many shows you do, and you you get like, an autopilot mode, and you look for little things to keep it interesting that don't, like, ruin the show. Like you kind of are like, Oh, look, we can, like, wave each other here, or we kind of have a moment here. We do this and this. So like, the relationship sort of evolved for us, where it just became like, I was like, he hated my guts in the beginning, and then he did his number, and I was like, That train was sick, dude. And then, okay, oh, it's up. And at the end, we actually even had in the in the receiving line at the end, when Grizz is, like, shaking everybody's paw for some reason, like we're like, good game. We look at each other and we literally just go, like, adorable dude. Shout out Jack sam borski. Because

[35:52] Speaker 3: I will say I can understand where frenemies come from. Because I feel like, skimble and Jenny, any dots are kind of the, like, proper pair, you know, like, they're more the uptight. They take care of people, you know. They shush people away. They're like, you're misbehaving. And Tucker is like, the biggest misbehavior of all. So you can see how you could make the choice as skimble, I think definitely as Jenny, you're just like, Tucker, like, you know, but skimble, they have that kind of, like, male cat, maybe, energy. That's like, okay, but like, beer later, you know?

[36:25] Mike Abrams: So okay. Now I'm very curious for both of you, John and Hank, you said that you made some decisions, you kind of had some freedom. Is there ever any one that you made that all of a sudden the fans came out to after? Was like, No, that's not supposed to happen. Oh, god

[36:39] Speaker 5: yes, there was one specific one, specific one. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't that often, but I think it was, um, me. It's humble me and tumble at first. So I think canonically, or like, fan canonically, so non canonically sometimes, Look, dude, the fans have the power now. Okay, this shows been around 40 years. They have it all. Right? It's theirs tumble and Tucker don't like each other. And that was, like, always told to me, but me and our tumble Brendan Morin was like, we always had moments where we had fun, like, because he was really playing into the kitten part of it, and was like, super bubbly and energetic. And like, there were choreographed moments where I, like, shoved him aside, and we're like, Dude, get out of here. You know what I mean. But we always, like, kind of had fun, and then I think we took a picture together backstage or something, and it went on Tumblr, and everyone was like, yes, they resolved their differences. I was like, whoa. I was like, Yeah, dude, it's like, oh, we weren't supposed to like each other. So I went to his dressing room and I said, Dude, we got to tone it down, man. Like we're not supposed to like each other too much. And so, like, we just kind of stopped. We would pump the brakes on. We were just like, all right, I'm gonna shove you here, dude, and you don't look at me like, so they corrected that pretty quick. Okay,

[37:59] Mike Abrams: yeah, that's so deal with any of that? Um,

[38:02] Speaker 3: no, because I was constantly playing a different cat. I mean, I played cast for like, a month straight about so that's the most comfy I got in one of my tracks. But I never had, like, fans or anything. The biggest thing we got in our cast is we got in trouble because we were, like, kind of his bumpy, because we'd all come up to each other, and they're like, You can't do that. That was like our choreographer,

[38:25] Mike Abrams: okay, okay, oh,

[38:31] Mike Abrams: All right, let's talk about one that I don't think has been brought up as much, but bus for Jones, who may or may not, be in every production. Where is his money going? Is it to McCabe, his crime gang, or is it to other places see the funding? Or is he not?

[38:49] Speaker 3: I literally never thought about this, because half the time I forget that he's in the

[39:01] Mike Abrams: pretty sure I made up this cannon, by the way. So

[39:03] Speaker 5: that's funny, though, dude, like a penguin cat, like Tony Soprano cat.

[39:09] Mike Abrams: Nice. The money behind the crime game, yeah? So that's my that's my

[39:14] Speaker 6: family money. Like, where's it come? I don't want to know where as rich owners, yeah, keeping up with the Joneses. Yeah. Okay, money got it. I'm

[39:23] Speaker 4: kind of thinking of it like, like, Buster for Jones has a little Anna delvey in him where it's like, none of the other cats, their financial status comes up, and he's like, I'm the richest cat. And everyone's like, I guess we believe you now, he walks the walk and talks the talk and knows where to be. But, like, is money changing hands? Can

[39:48] Speaker 3: you do the actual so he's not really, he doesn't introduce himself. He's introduced that's true.

[39:54] Speaker 6: So like, your will is that he's just pulling one over on everyone. Yeah, I like that. Wow,

[40:00] Speaker 4: he's, he's, he's pulling a bigger heist than Macavity, but it's also, like, very small. He's there. It's a social status heist.

[40:08] Speaker 5: Oh, we never see him again, dude. He just did with the money.

[40:16] Mike Abrams: He slowly becomes Gus. Yeah. Where did

[40:28] Mike Abrams: Somebody's got to cover this, right? Did you forget Buster Jones was in your guest? Never

[40:35] Speaker 5: dude, because I did my so Tugger wears, in our version, like high heels and his main number, it's like a cow. We a really high heel that totally kills your back. And then you go off stage, you change into jazz shoes because it's like a little bit easier to do the ball. And my quick change was always right next to Buster trying to get into Gus. And it was minimal space in some of these theaters, so I was always a front row seat for the chaos that was trying to get that gigantic overcoat off. So no, I never forgot buster. He was right there, and I knew when he was pissed off. Can I say, Yeah, we really

[41:12] Mike Abrams: dig into the store this. You can say whatever you want. Okay, before I have two more, but I want to hear what else from the crowd. Is there any subplots or theories? You got some experts here that we haven't covered. Is

[41:37] Speaker 5: You know, yeah, this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. Yeah, I want to reign so yes,

[41:49] Speaker 3: don't know. I don't know for some reason, I guess, like, in the back of my mind, and like, the way you just like, make it make sense when you're doing it is, I guess I just like, decided that Buster for Jones was one of the cats that had owners, and then he, like, stopped by the Delica ball to be like, oh, so me too, you know. And there's definitely certain cats that, like, have collars, and some that don't very specifically. And so I don't remember if he had a collar or not, but I feel like he comes in, and his owners are Upper East siders, and he's like, yeah, like, these cool people, not me, bye.

[42:29] Speaker 5: Ours had a collar that was like a fish bone the and, okay, I want to get I want to get into this now, because I'm stoked on this. I'm having so much fun. Like he, he at the end of his number, there's the siren scare and demeanor said, mccavity. And we all go, mcavity. And then he's in the cavity, Toodle pip, and he dips, and then you never see him again. So I am with the fact that he's funding the dude thing, because he's like, I gotta get out of here, man, because they're

[43:00] Speaker 6: gonna figure me out. Yes, they're gonna figure me out. All right.

[43:03] Mike Abrams: Oh, solving problems. I see a hand back there. Do you have

[43:09] Speaker 8: a in your professional opinion? Why do you think wasabella was cast out of the tribe in the first place? Was it just like, did she portray somebody, or wasn't just a matter, but, oh, you're not pretty anymore. Scram,

[43:23] Mike Abrams: okay, so for just in case anybody didn't hear it, why did grizzabel Leave? Was she shunned because she wasn't pretty enough, or because what was the other did she betray? She betrayed somebody? Yeah, she's okay. What do y'all think? I'm hardly

[43:41] Mike Abrams: we have an opinion. Yeah,

[43:46] Speaker 5: I think that, yeah. I think it goes back to her being the mother of some of the cats and one of dudes old flames cast out because she went to pursue this lifestyle that didn't work out for her and abandoned the children in the process.

[44:06] Mike Abrams: Okay, any other thoughts?

[44:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it goes back to that discussion. I don't think she like, did something like, I think she left for the home of cavity and the drugs and the everything, and the, you know, whatever, life wandering. And they were like, Okay, no, you chose that. You can't come back now. You know, like you made those decisions. You still are. You still in it. You don't know. You know you don't look great if you go with the revival makeup.

[44:45] Speaker 4: Well, thinking with the not pretty enough aspect, it's making me think of bad Cinderella and how, with this homogeneity of the most of the company, and then there's the. One who is then ostracized and then redeemed at the end there, there's a lot of

[45:16] Speaker 6: What are you doing? Which war you're gonna have to be more specific.

[45:28] Mike Abrams: I mean, I always argue anything anti Grizabella, so I think she left for the worst possible reason. So it makes it harder for me to turn her back

[45:42] Speaker 5: a crime gig. She left to do this. She left to do the bad Cinderella workshop. Angelo Weber, I love you, man, I'm available for hire. If you're watching. It's okay. He's not here. We can hope. I have

[46:00] Speaker 2: a question, if you if two cats during the Jellicle

[46:05] Speaker 9: Ball end up having Jellicle kittens. Are they born Jellicle kittens, or do they have to go through initiation to join the cold are

[46:16] Speaker 6: people born wicked? Do they have wickedness for us to pop see? So

[46:24] Mike Abrams: asking the important questions,

[46:41] Speaker 3: I feel like there are kittens in the Jellicle tribes. I feel like, if you were to have a kitten, kittens, you know, they would be a part of it, because there's still, like, you know, you know, Electra and pouncable and syllabi. Is that the other one? Yeah. And like, you know, they are kittens, and they're there, but they're also like, not a part of the bigger decisions of things. They're kind of like, Oh, we're having fun and we're being led around. So I feel like your kittens would fall into that. And then I feel like there are the kit the younger cats who are kind of in transition into the older cats. And I would put corico Pat and tantamyle into that. Like, they probably weren't born into the Jellicle Tribe, but because of their special, whimsical powers, I don't know are part of it, if that makes sense. Like, I could see like, pounce and Elektra having been born in and are there. And so that's why they have the freedom to play. And like, it doesn't get serious until it's really serious.

[47:43] Mike Abrams: I think the secondary question of that is, if you were the choice and you get reborn, are you reborn back into the tribe or not? So who was last year's choice? Grizabella is, wrongfully this year's choice. Who was last year Victoria is, I think, one of the very common answers, syllable

[48:01] Speaker 5: to syllable, yeah. Literally never seen Bill Bailey, beginning of the revival version. And then never again. Bill Bailey is formerly known as chorus Tugger. Now it's canonically a different cat who, I believe the name comes from the original tumble Brutus.

[48:19] Mike Abrams: It comes from one of the I thought it comes from one of the poems,

[48:23] Speaker 5: something like that. Yeah, he like, I think tumble was called Bill Bailey in the original. And then they, like, used bill for, I don't know, man, I but I was Bill Bailey for like, three minutes in the beginning, and then you transition to Tugger, and you'd never see him again. So I'm like, That dude got it, like he's

[48:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah, another castle, right? And then, well, McCabe is Play

[48:53] Mike Abrams: that's Peter, Peter.

[48:57] Speaker 6: Okay, so, like, cello, Bailey and Peter. And then what's going on with the names?

[49:04] Speaker 5: They just figured out that sort of naming thing. They were like, Oh, dude, we have different

[49:17] Mike Abrams: I firmly believe Peter St Peter and he is bring somebody to the job of choice. Otherwise, I don't understand why

[49:24] Speaker 6: he's there. He's famously your least favorite cat. He's very famous in my

[49:27] Mike Abrams: least favorite cat. Yes, very much. So, I mean, you

[49:30] Speaker 3: can argue with the names, like Bill Bailey is probably named by a person, whereas the cats of like the cuckoo banana name are just like, they're like, this

[49:39] Mike Abrams: is my name. They have three names.

[49:44] Mike Abrams: all right, here we got the last two. One debate I want to know is, do you think in the 80s, when this show was created, that any of the creative team thought a conversation like this would happen at Broadway con, not. Or do you think they knew when they wrote it? They're like, Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna spark some stuff. That is

[50:05] Speaker 3: okay. So this is my hilarious dichotomy of being in the revival of cats. Is I don't really think cats should be music like, it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how it's created. I don't know why my family, like my family, loves theater, and as a whole, we, like, hated cats. So I was brought up to be, like, that stupid musical, as I say this

[50:30] Speaker 3: and, like, luckily, like, doing the show, like, you know, obviously I'm debating, like, where did Grizabella go? You know, it's like, brought as especially as an actor, I think it and a dancer. We don't normally get shows like this, where you can be one character with this huge backstory and then do like a 12 minute dance number at the end of Act One, like, you know, you don't just normally get to do that. And I think it's really amazing. But I always wonder, I'm like, were they sitting at the tech tables on in the original production? Being like, yeah. And the only reason why I think that might have been the case is, you know, luckily, Broadway is not like this anymore. And I hope I'm not going too out of the box by saying this, but I do believe everyone was just mostly on a lot of drugs.

[51:21] Speaker 3: Who thought, and I was like, cocaine. But it's also created this great, amazing thing that everybody loves. And I also think it's like a brilliant thing like so I also think my history with the show is because I was not introduced as a kid to it by somebody who was like, Hey, look at this great musical video that we have. Like, I was watching the recording of into the woods, you know, like my family was like, No, that's bad. And I have three older sisters. I was like, yeah, that's bad, you know. So I never, like, learned anything else, but it's really incredible. And I think it's something that we take on as performers, performing the show that a lot of the time, cats will be someone's first Broadway musical or first musical in general, because people know that it's something that kids can take in, and it's a very different like they made the movie, but like being in the theater with the green eyes all around you and the cats coming out, like, what a way to teach a kid that like theater is something special and different. So I think it also carries on this great love. And we should, you know, applaud it for that, yeah, to that point.

[52:30] Speaker 5: No, yeah, that was, that was well deserving. I didn't mean to cut that, yeah, that applause off, um, I saw it when I was 11 with my dad. I saw, like it was a fourth or fifth tour. I can't remember. It was like, 2,005/5 tour, 2006 something like that. Yeah, and I, I didn't get it at all, like, I still, like, cohesively. It didn't make sense to my dumb little brain at the time, because I was, like, it didn't have a linear storyline, like, it didn't have something that you could, like, follow along. And I think that is what put people off. Because there's few shows that are just like, you have a million wonderful, amazing things to say, and you say none of them, and it's just like, so you have to, like, really, like, make your own sort of opinion as to, like, kind of what's happening in front of you there is, like, when you sit down and research it, like, yes, like, it'll start to make sense. But 95% of people that go see theater, they don't do that, you know? They just go and they're like, Okay, entertain me, you know? And I, like, for the longest time was like, Yeah, that's a bad show because I didn't get it, you know what I mean? And I was like, Yeah, I don't need to. I'm never gonna do the show. Like, I'm not, like, I didn't understand. The only number I remember was Tugger, and the only reason why was because he came out into the audience, started dancing with people. I'm like, That is funny. I and like, that was something. I was like, I want to do that. But other than that, I don't remember a single thing, and, like, then I got to do it, and it started making more sense. I'm like, why don't more people like this? Like this is unlike anything else, and I think it's just because, like, if it doesn't immediately make sense to you, you just, like, you shun it away, like, push it away. And there's people who find like themselves and like each character of the show. Like, you can really follow a certain path, or you can, like, make your own opinions and so and it's so open ended that There literally is something for everybody in cats. And there's few things that actually do that. And now in my like, dumb, little 27 year old brain, like, I I see that more. And I'm like, this is something that, like, we desperately need to keep alive. Because, like, it's starting to get to the point where, like, our attention spans are getting so, like, let's be for real. Like they're getting so they're getting smaller and smaller that, like, I'm like, talking circles even, like, with my. Attention span. I don't even remember how this sentence started, but like, I find it Alan. We need that like to exist. Like, we need that sort of, like you are as much of a part of it as the people who wrote it, like the fact that a fan base took this and, like, we have stuff like this podcast, or, like you have the theories and the art and all that stuff is, like, there's very few things that can do that successfully. And this is, like, so killer that, like, that happens. I had

[55:29] Mike Abrams: the same and opposite reaction because I saw it was an adult, yeah, I walked out with, like, same thing. What did I watch? It wasn't I couldn't follow it. I only remember Mungo giant rebel teaser because I realized as I saw it recently. It's the only time that it's only two cats on stage, for the most part. Other times, I was just like, sensory overload and couldn't process what was happening. But then I went home and I was like, What did I just watch? I need to know more. And I researched, and that's how I ended up here today, a long journey here today. But that's the same thing as like, I watched. I walked like, this is the strangest weirdness. I don't know what happened. I don't know the story. I don't even know why this cat went into the tire at the end. And that's the only song I knew from the show when I walked in, because I knew nothing, and I just moved here. But anyways, okay, we have your votes for job of choice, because you all have been on the show before, so I've got two guest votes here. You voted Grizabella so time. It's been a couple years now, have I changed your mind? Are you still gonna stick with grizzabel as your joyful choice? Yeah, I'll stick with Grizabella. Okay, I've been trying to slowly convince you to that that's not the right answer. Okay, by show of hands, do we have Grizabella as your angelical choice? No, I got 123, okay, and any other

[56:53] Speaker 3: the biggest character arc, arguably,

[56:57] Mike Abrams: okay. I got a Gus vote. Who else got totally right out here? I love it.

[57:04] Speaker 6: This This man has been in the theater for nine lives. Let him rest. He's tired.

[57:15] Mike Abrams: I love it. Well. I'm glad that this audience is voting more against Grizabella. That is my goal is to slowly convince everybody we'll keep talking drama. Thank you all. How can people find you on social see your new show?

[57:27] Speaker 3: Yes, you can find me at JK, saxer on Instagram and at Princess JK, glitter on Tiktok, and then you can come see me back to the future. Yeah, I play mostly all humans. So two different old ladies. So

[57:47] Speaker 4: again, I'm Will Anderson. I run the theater lovers on Instagram and tick tock at at the underscore theater with an ER, my apologies, underscore lovers,

[58:02] Mike Abrams: you know, don't have time for that debate.

[58:09] Speaker 5: Yeah, you can find me at Hank Santos on a lot of things, Instagram, Twitter, whatever. It's at seven and summer on Tiktok. I'm sorry. And yeah, man, boost my boost my stuff. I'm trying to, you know, try to play a human again. Oh, catch me. And pretty woman on tour in the fall, also,

[58:31] Speaker 6: the other half of the theater lovers and, er, it's theater er, because it matches lover er, okay, you know when you pick a handle and you're like, I won't ever regret this for any reason, and then you're stuck with it because you have a following that's, it's, you know, it's only God, just everybody

[58:46] Mike Abrams: in their 30s and 40s is screen name, yeah.

[58:52] Mike Abrams: you all for being here. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network and Broadway con for having us. This has been super fun for everyone listening to this as a podcast. Later, follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Tiktok at the wrong cat died. And now threads, yeah, on threads too. We love social media at the wrong cat died, and check our website, the roncacade.com Thanks everybody. Thank