This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ebony Vines: Welcome to Theatre Geeks Anonymous, the podcast about Broadway flops, scandals, and new work.

[0:08] Pamela Shandrow: I'm your host, Ebony Vines. And I'm your host, Pamela Shandrow. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Theatre Geeks Anonymous Podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network and all your favorite podcast listening apps. Thank you.

[0:24] Angelica Sherry: Hi, I'm Angelica Sherry, and you are listening to Theatre Geeks Anonymous on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:33] Ebony Vines: All right. Well, Theatre Geeks, we are so excited to have you all listen to this incredible episode. You all know who I am. I'm Ebony Vines. I'm one half of Theatre Geeks Anonymous.

[0:48] Pamela Shandrow: I'm Pamela Shandrow, the other half. And it's wild. We've been doing this podcast for nearly 10 years. And friends, I don't know if I've told you all this on our pod yet, but I'm co-producing a Broadway show. And today, we have the book writer, lyricist, and composer of the new musical coming to Broadway, Wanted, The Legend of the Sisters Clark. Begins previews on October 15th, opens on November 8th at the James Earl Jones Theatre. We're very excited to have Ross Baum and Angelica Sherry with us today.

[1:27] Ross Baum: Welcome.

[1:33] Angelica Sherry: Hi. Great to be here.

[1:34] Ross Baum: Yes. Thanks for having us.

[1:36] Angelica Sherry: Thank you for taking this time. I know you all are in the heat of rehearsals right now. So we're really grateful that you took this time. And we'll get right into it.

[1:45] Ebony Vines: Okay. So I know you've said this a lot on several different podcasts. I've pretty much listened to like every interview. But for our listeners, I'd like you all to start with how you started this collaboration at NYU grad school, that whole cool story.

[2:08] Angelica Sherry: Well, once upon a time in the graduate musical theater writing program at NYU, this was back in 2013. We started this program, it was two years. And the first year was all about composer, lyricist, speed dating. Because we cycled, I believe that the class was 18 people, somewhere around there.

[2:31] Ross Baum: It was 27 people.

[2:32] Angelica Sherry: 27 people. We had 18 thesis though, didn't we?

[2:38] Ross Baum: I don't know where that number came from. I'm maybe attached to it. Anyhow, it was a strange, like a medium-sized number of students. Half music people, half words people. And we would cycle around each other where we would do assignments together while we're learning the craft. And you would see, based on those assignments, who you meshed with, who you gelled with, who you had the most positive and fruitful collaborative experience with. And Ross and I were paired together at the beginning of the second semester of the first year. So we had a few assignments under our belt. So we kind of had a flow of our own styles. And then when we came together, we made this wild and crazy thing.

[3:23] Angelica Sherry: Do you want to talk about?

[3:24] Ross Baum: Please do. We want to hear.

[3:26] Angelica Sherry: The assignment was to make a musical sequence that was an adaptation of a Chinese action film that took place in a royal palace. And there was fighting and incest and death. Lots of killing. Killing and poisoning. Great source material for a musical number. Wonderful. And we conceived it as like a Grammys performance. So the queen was like a Lady Gaga. The prince was a Justin Timberlake. Who else did we model? Didn't we do like a Nicki Minaj situation?

[4:01] Ross Baum: Yeah. With the concubine, like servant girl things.

[4:09] Angelica Sherry: Yeah.

[4:18] Ross Baum: This interview is going to be unhinged. I'm so excited.

[4:34] Angelica Sherry: Anyway, we really had a great time working with each other. And then we went about our merry way. So that was like January of that second year, or first year. And then it came time to pick one person for the fall of the next year to write the thesis with. And so we immediately gravitated back towards each other for the full thesis. And that's how Wanted was born.

[5:05] Ross Baum: That's incredible. I love that. I love it so much. Quick honorable mention to the Starbucks on Astor Place. That's where she pitched the idea for the first time. I used to go there to like kind of kill time when I was waiting for like the Hamilton Lottery. And you know, and then like when I was in that age bracket where you could get like low ticket prices, I was over there all the time waiting for that.

[5:32] Angelica Sherry: Like, man, I frequented that place too. It's so sad. I was like, rents are crazy when Starbucks can't afford.

[5:39] Ross Baum: It's kind of like savage.

[5:40] Angelica Sherry: Yeah.

[5:41] Ross Baum: I don't even know what's there anymore. Now there's a Raising Kings across the street and there's a Wegmans across the street, but nothing is there.

[5:47] Angelica Sherry: No, nothing. Nothing's still in that space. We need to go in protest.

[5:54] Ross Baum: We should franchise a Starbucks to re-erect something.

[5:57] Angelica Sherry: We need to have a Wanted shrine over there and be like, this is where Wanted was birthed.

[6:02] Ross Baum: That's right. A Wanted themed Starbucks. Everything is Western.

[6:11] Angelica Sherry: Mary Frappuccino.

[6:12] Ross Baum: Yes. Martha Macchiato.

[6:19] Angelica Sherry: Oh my God. We have a vision, folks. Call our agents.

[6:23] Ross Baum: Marketing is everything. It's all about the story.

[6:32] Angelica Sherry: It is. It is. Okay. So I'm curious for the two of you, like after you started this, I've heard the story, two of you being in like one of those music rooms or something working and then just like looking at each other and just knowing that this was going to happen. And for creative people, can you tell me what it was that continued to push you forward in the ups and downs of it all? Because I know it can get discouraging sometimes. You're like, is this going to happen? I have this belief. Can you just tell us what that was?

[7:07] Ross Baum: Oh my gosh. I mean, another honorable mention. So there's two numbers in my mind, right? In terms of the practice rooms. Was it 256 or 267 or both of them?

[7:24] Angelica Sherry: Both. Okay, great. Yeah. Just had another honorable mention to the practice rooms in. I think it's a combination of a lot of things. I think for one, we just had to the power of collaboration. I think we just had this undying belief in each other that like, Oh, I have my sister by my side. We'll saddle up and ride into the wide open planes. I mean, but no, but seriously, I feel like there, because in 12 years, so much life happens. We both had nephew, nieces, born, or cousin, baby cousins born around the same time. Deaths happened. My father passed away. Moving across country. We both lived and moved across country. There was pandemics, insurrections. There's so much that happened in the 12 years.

And we, we were relentless. We were unyielding. We were determined. We were focused. And we, we believed in each other. We couldn't let each other down. Like in the moments where I was just like, Oh my God, I'm dragging. Like I was in, I was grieving when my father passed away. And I was just like, I don't have it. I don't have it. I don't have it to write a lyric. I don't have it to write a line. I don't have it to edit anything. But then I would get an email and it was, it would be something that we needed to do and something that we needed to stay on top of for the show. And by the way, the whole Wanted community was so supportive and gracious and loving when I was going through that moment.

But so I, I didn't feel pressed, but I just knew, okay, I've got to get myself together because I have a show to do. The show must go on. I have collaborators who are waiting on me. And if I don't do the work, it's not going to get done. And I'm not going to let Ross down. Like he's like one of the best friends I have in the world. And I would just like, not going to let Ross down, not going to leave him hanging so that I think that's, was for me a big part of it.

[9:42] Ross Baum: Oh yeah.

[9:43] Angelica Sherry: Yeah. We do lift each other up when we, when the others needs to.

[9:48] Ross Baum: Yeah, for sure. For sure. What a boon. Cause like it is hard enough, I think to do it on your own, but knowing that you had each other to support each other is really huge. I think that's, that's great. I, I can't imagine. I have friends who write shows on their own and it, I can't imagine being in that position. It's so, it's so hard, like having a collaborator to lean on through all of the ups and downs is like, it's really like probably the only thing that got me through, especially when you're, you have, I mean, a lot on your plate, like, like and a lot of pressure from a lot of different areas to like, you know, make changes and make certain decisions that like really affect the future of the show.

So it's like both in the work and then in everything surrounding the work, like it's, it's been so amazing to have Angelica like by my side. And I, I see my friends who, who are in it like solo and it like, that's like, this takes fortitude, but like that takes fortitude.

[11:01] Angelica Sherry: Yeah.

[11:02] Ross Baum: Yeah. And a backbone.

[11:03] Angelica Sherry: Yeah. I, I can't, I, I have never tried to write a musical, but I have, you know, I know a lot of people who have written them and like my mentor wrote title of show and he did that with all of his friends, you know? And so it's just like, you, you, it takes so long to get a show up. And I feel like people don't understand that because even my family, like I'm talking to them about that. And every time I say like 12 years, they're like, what do you mean 12 years? I'm like, that is normal. 12, 15, sometimes 20. And so to have somebody with you along the way, it's just like huge.

[12:02] Ebony Vines: I want to also like, look at this from, I'm going to ask maybe a couple of questions about grief and ancestry as well. Because part of the reason I joined the co-producing team is my late father was a sharecropper. And I, I, I went to see Gunn and Powder in 2024 at Paper Mill Playhouse. And so then when I saw Angelica that your dad had passed, I was like, it, it, there was, and I think I've told you this in person, but like the fact that you're a believer, also that you like understand this grief of losing both parents, the story being sharecroppers, there was just like so many reasons I felt like God was leading me to this story. And I feel I'm going to be really spiritual right now, but Pamela and I are Christians, so I'm just gonna do it.

Um, but I really feel the Holy Spirit in this show. I really, really do. And, um, and so I, just kind of want to talk about like going through that, going through that grieving period and coming out on the other side of it. Is there also a piece of you, because it's in the story, the ancestors being there with Mary and Martha the whole time, like, is that also something that you have felt? And I'm just curious what your experience is with that and continuing on when you know that you have people on the other side cheering you on?

[13:29] Angelica Sherry: Oh my God. I mean, first of all, you were preaching to the choir because my father was a preacher. So I, and you know, I, my, my entire life foundation is my belief in the Lord. And I know that, that, that unequivocally the I would not be here without the Lord. And I know that to be absent from the body is to be present.

[13:57] Angelica: So, my dad, it's so crazy because my father, he had such a very tactile connection to ancestry because of the fact that we both dealt with so much death and loss in the beginnings of our lives. He lost his father at 16 months, I lost my mother at 11 months, and so that just naturally creates an awareness of the other side, of the veil, right? And inherently, he would always talk about our cloud of witnesses cheering us on, on the other side, who are looking and watching, goodness and mercy. He literally used to say how goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your lives, and he would say things like, the prayers of our ancestors are chasing us down. Like, literally things that my grandmother prayed, his grandmother prayed, all these different things prayed, are literally chasing after us and for the rest of our lives.

Like, the unseen protection, the reason why you didn't go down that street, the reason why you didn't, you know, go to that building, the reason why certain people stopped to get a coffee and didn't go to the World Trade Center that morning, you know what I mean? Like, that was the foundation for the idea of the kinfolk, that literal embodiment of the goodness and mercy following after Mary and Martha, who are like, we have finally really given them names. You know, after the names of Clark ancestors, like Odessa, Lucille, Beulah, these are Clark women in my family. And I have to think, we all have that. I mean, at Ross, we talk about, we both share a Lucille. And so does Stevie. Well, my grandmother was Lucille. Stevie Walker-Webb, our director, was his grandmother Lucille? Or his aunt or something? He has a Lucille somewhere.

[16:01] Ross: Yeah.

[16:02] Angelica: And you had one.

[16:03] Ross: And I, yeah, my grandmother's oldest sister. But even, Ross, your grandmother's journey was also similar to...

[16:11] Ross: Yeah, we had kind of a Mary and Martha situation in our family. Not with that, not with robbing people. At Westerns. But my grandmother was a Polish Jew, and she was 16 years old, and her sister was 17. And their mother sent them away in the late 1930s to America. And they journeyed by themselves, two teenage girls from Poland to America.

[16:37] Angelica: Wow, goodness.

[16:39] Ross: And that became my family legend. I was lucky enough to know my grandmother. She passed away when I was about 20. But she never actually never spoke of the specifics of that journey.

[16:53] Angelica: That's a lot.

[16:54] Ross: I can only imagine that it was a lot. Yeah, for her, it was understandable why she didn't talk about it. But she did make it. And then she, she, I mean, she achieved the American dream.

[17:12] Angelica: Wow. And look at you, you're here.

[17:17] Ross: Yeah.

[17:18] Angelica: Part of her American dream.

[17:19] Ross: It's that whole saying that is, you know, we are our ancestors' wildest dreams.

[17:25] Angelica: Totally.

[17:26] Ross: You know, but like now I also want to put on a t-shirt what Angelica said about our ancestors' prayers are chasing us down. I'm like, yeah, I love it. That's right.

[17:37] Ebony Vines: Before we go much further, we have started talking about some of the aspects of your show. But I have very little inkling about what the show is about. And I know that our audience is probably as much in the dark, if not more. Can you give us a like, just a short synopsis of what this is about?

[17:54] Angelica: Take it away.

[18:01] Angelica: Angelica's great-great-aunts were twin sisters named Mary and Martha Clark, and they were biracial. So their father was, right, a Frenchman. Their grandfather was a Frenchman. Their grandfather was a Frenchman. And their mother.

[18:25] Ross: Grandmother.

[18:26] Angelica: I'm doing a great job.

[18:27] Ross: He took it to the ancestor. I thought you were just going to do the plot. No, I love it.

[18:31] Angelica: But this is true.

[18:32] Ross: Okay, anyways.

[18:33] Angelica: This is true. Grandmother, enslaved woman, grandfather, and Frenchman. So they were biracial. And they lived in Marlin, Texas. Our show takes place in 1893. So it's post-emancipation. They are sharecroppers. And in order to settle their mother's sharecropper debt, they decide, Mary and Martha, to pass for whites and go out into the wide-open plains. And antics ensue. They discover that the best way to get this money is by robbing unsuspecting white people. And so they unintentionally become outlaws of the Wild West.

[19:25] Ross: It's hysterical. When you put it like that, it's epic and hysterical.

[19:30] Angelica: Just antics. I love it. It's such like a sitcom energy.

[19:34] Ross: Yeah, right.

[19:35] Angelica: Yeah.

[19:36] Ross: I've been telling people they're Robin Hoods.

[19:39] Angelica: Yeah, I mean, that's essentially what it is. I mean, the whole idea of sharecropping in and of itself seems like it should be illegal, right? You're renting land and paying your landlord in order to grow and make money from that land. It's very similar to what we're doing here in New York City. But the system hasn't gotten any better over the last several hundred years. Let's just put it that way. So it is appealing, I think, for people to think, gosh, why don't we just get rid of that system altogether? We'll burn it to the ground and all of us can just be Robin Hoods where, you know, the privileged among us can go and rob people and then pass that money along. I think that sounds really romantic and amazing.

[20:26] Ross: Sounds like a Reconstruction romantic epic story.

[20:31] Angelica: That's right. And the fact that these are that is based on two real live women that happen to be in your family tree is even more exciting. Can you tell us a little bit of how you discovered about Mary and Martha?

[20:45] Angelica: It was all at the kitchen table because my grandmother, Dora Lee Clark, raised me in part after my mother passed away. This is my father's mother. So this is my paternal grandmother. And she just had a plethora of photo albums and with just reams and reams of photographs. And it was an epic tradition to sit at the table with a slice of whatever on the table and just hear, now this is daddy Tom and this is uncle so-and-so and this is auntie so-and-so and they did this and they did that. And then you can imagine the shock to white women in the middle of all these black people to what you would think. And then she would always just correct or divulge the details. These are, first of all, they're passing for white.

They may appear, you would think because of their features, but they are the product of two generations, well, two generations removed from enslavement and they were outlaws, which was always just the record scratch, what? Pass for white is already an interesting and layered and historically loaded subject matter in totality. So that could just, it could just be that, but then the outlaw piece just brought it to another level because they are so, when you see the photos of them and I'm told that they were extremely tall, like tall stately women, and they looked so demure and dignified and posed and they robbed people. I think that was what made them like a Trojan horse to be female, to be passing for white and you have a gun.

No one is expecting you to rob them, which I think is the irony and the beauty of what happens. But the hilarious thing is that when my grandmother told it, the story was never the same. If she took her blood pressure medication or if there was pie on the, or chicken, or if it's Sunday, we just left church, there's a different story. And then after she passes away and then other people take on and then I get other pieces of the narrative and they all conflict, nothing makes sense. I'm like, my conclusion, nobody knows. Great. So we made it up.

[23:18] Ebony Vines: Are you first, I mean, those two things that she mentioned up front, that they were white passing and that they were outlaws, you're fairly certain that those two pieces of information?

[23:27] Angelica: I am. Yes. I hope so. Yes. If not, then those two women in the photograph aren't related to me. I know they are because multiple people have verified. Can you imagine we just made this entire thing up? It's just like, oh no. Like every other piece of musical theater, right?

[23:45] Ross: I know, right. But I've spoken to people who were alive when they were alive. So we have, yes, Aunt Beulah is still alive. She's the last living Clark sister and she's almost a hundred.

[23:57] Angelica: Wow. She's, she's incredible with a husband, 30 years younger than her. She's everything. I'm obsessed with her.

[24:05] Ebony Vines: Oh my goodness. What does she recall? Does she recall anything specific about back then?

[24:13] Angelica: When we spoke 12 years ago, yes. Today, I'm not sure.

[24:22] Ross: Well, let her rest a little bit. We have, we have, we have mined that well.

[24:32] Angelica: That's really special. That's really special. Can you tell me about like the musical motifs in the score and like, do they change meaning depending on who is singing and also like what the influences were for the, for the music?

[24:50] Angelica: There definitely are musical, I love a musical motif. That's one of my favorite things about writing for the theater is like taking some musical themes and, you know, having them change meaning and change hands over the course of the evening. So there's definitely a lot of that. There's a whole mute, like a whole world that's happening, you know, underneath the words. And that's my, my domain. And probably a lot that you won't even care like that happens on a subconscious level. If I'm doing my job right.

[25:25] Ross: I have to see the show four times. Pick up on all of what he's doing.

[25:29] Angelica: You know, like the gun. Oh, Betsy. The gun's name is old Betsy. She has the theme. Tallulah has a theme, the mother. Martha has a theme. Yeah, totally.

[25:53] Angelica: The influences are vast. Because it's so encompassing of so many, so much of American history is like, the influences are vast. And like, pop culture is vast. Yes. So we have everything from like, R&B to like, gospel, jazz. There's like waltzes. There's like more pop country kind of stuff. It's like a big stew of musical influences. But you know, we, we love drawing from Beyonce. Nina Simone is a big one. Last week, we were doing a rewrite. I was listening to Cab Calloway and Miles Davis. Bruno Mars, there's some of that. There's wildly that Latin Requiem Mass moment.

[26:49] Angelica: Yes, we have a spiritual mixed together with a funeral dirge.

[26:54] Ross: Wow. That's the opening of Act Two.

[26:57] Angelica: Oh my goodness. Okay. We won't tell you who dies or doesn't die. It's just like Mahalia Jackson and Mozart.

[27:10] Ross: Yeah. Oh, yeah, literally.

[27:10] Angelica: Literally that. How's it been in the rehearsal room right now? Like, you know, doing this like second to last pass, right? Because you have like, the rehearsal, then we have previews, and then it gets frozen on opening night, which is like, you've been working on it for so long. So what, what are some of the things that like, surprised you in the rehearsal room? What are some of the things that you thought maybe you'd never change that ended up changing or some of the things that like, you have kept? Because I know you said, in other interviews, it's been multiple things that have been kept throughout the 12 years. So we're just curious about that. Yeah.

[28:23] Ebony Vines: Welcome back to Theatre Geeks Anonymous! Today, we’re diving into the world of new works, and I’m thrilled to share that I’m co-producing a Broadway show.

[28:30] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, and we have the creative team here with us to discuss their process in bringing this project to life!

[28:56] Ebony Vines: It’s been an incredible journey, and we can’t wait to hear all about it from the people who are making it happen.

[29:20] Pamela Shandrow: So, let’s get started! Can you tell us a bit about the inspiration behind the show?

[29:40] Ebony Vines: And what challenges have you faced during the development process?

[30:00] Pamela Shandrow: We’re excited to learn about the collaboration between the writers, directors, and performers.

[30:20] Ebony Vines: It’s always fascinating to hear how a new work evolves from concept to stage.

[30:40] Pamela Shandrow: Absolutely! And we want to know what makes this show unique compared to other productions.

[31:00] Ebony Vines: Let’s dive deeper into the themes and messages you’re exploring in this work.

[31:20] Pamela Shandrow: And how do you feel the audience will connect with these themes?

[31:40] Ebony Vines: It’s important for us to understand the emotional journey you want to take the audience on.

[32:00] Pamela Shandrow: We’re also curious about the music and choreography. How do those elements enhance the storytelling?

[32:20] Ebony Vines: And what role do you see technology playing in this production?

[32:40] Pamela Shandrow: There are so many exciting possibilities with new works, especially in today’s theater landscape.

[33:00] Ebony Vines: We can’t wait to see how everything comes together!

[33:20] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you for sharing your insights with us today.

[33:40] Ebony Vines: And for our listeners, stay tuned for more updates on the show as it progresses!

[34:00] Pamela Shandrow: We’ll be back next week with more stories from the theater world.

[34:20] Ebony Vines: Until then, keep dreaming big and supporting new works!

[34:40] Pamela Shandrow: Bye for now!

[35:00] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[35:20] Pamela Shandrow: See you next time!

[35:40] Ebony Vines: And remember, who fails, who sues, we tell their stories!

[36:00] Pamela Shandrow: That’s right!

[36:20] Ebony Vines: Thanks for listening!

[36:40] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[37:00] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[37:20] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[37:40] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[38:00] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[38:20] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[38:40] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[39:00] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[39:20] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[39:40] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[40:00] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[40:20] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[40:40] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[41:00] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[41:20] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[41:40] Ebony Vines: Bye!