This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:42] Pamela Shandrow: What's up, Theater Geeks? Uh, we did a proper intro for you. I mean, we still didn't do the uh wait, we do the podcast the pod, what's this podcast about, Pamela?

[0:59] Ebony Vines: Welcome to Theater Geeks Anonymous, where we talk about Broadway flops, scandals and new works and new works. And today we're gonna talk about kind of a mix between flop and scandal.

[1:14] Pamela Shandrow: I'll be real scandal. I forgot what we were talking about, so I'm really excited.

[1:20] Ebony Vines: Right. You should be. And I I I kind of fell down a rabbit hole today, because I was finishing up like last like last minute details and trying to find some more information in some areas, and then I like found a whole lot of stuff.

[1:33] Pamela Shandrow: Oh wow. Like, oh man. So hopefully this is good.

[1:39] Ebony Vines: Yeah. I mean it will be. And I have um, I don't know if this story was gonna interject in any part. So what I'll say is I remember when I was in college and I was looking for an internship. And one of the places I had an interview uh was at Telsea, right?

[2:05] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[2:06] Ebony Vines: Um I mean they were really nice from what I remember. Like it was really good, sweet, kind people. Um I remember at the time they were they were casting this musical.

[2:20] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[2:21] Ebony Vines: So that would have been either early 2003 or late 2002.

[2:26] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, late 2002.

[2:28] Ebony Vines: Okay. Well, let's just break the anticipation and tell them what we're doing today. And that is Taboo.

[2:41] Pamela Shandrow: Woo. Ebony and I have kind of decided, um, well, I mean, we cut we started not a trend, but we started the uh uh kind of just working with shows that uh are uh either creative, created by wow, I cannot get my thoughts together right now, um created by or performed by um people of color, but now we're broadening that slightly because it is June, which is Pride Month.

[3:14] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[3:14] Pamela Shandrow: So Taboo kind of encompasses the LGBTQ plus community as well. So I think that that's kind of a cool thing. So we might just keep on this trend. And I like this this kind of path that we've that we've taken.

[3:29] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah.

[3:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, because I feel like a lot, I mean a lot of the stuff that a lot of the stuff that was created by people in the margins hasn't really been given credited or hasn't been credited to those marginalized people.

[3:49] Ebony Vines: Right, right.

[3:51] Pamela Shandrow: So I like that we are yes, we're talking about flops, but we are also giving credit where credit is due. So and I and it's beyond time for that.

[4:01] Ebony Vines: Right, right. And I think, you know, like we've always said part of this, the reason we do this show is yeah, the stories are juicy and super fun to like fall down rabbit holes and like kind of parse through and talk about. Um but also we want you to dig deeper into these shows.

[4:15] Pamela Shandrow: We want you to be sparked and read that and read the the play or the book. Um if you can find a movie version of it to do that as well. Um if there in this case is a musician that if you're a millennial, you might not know very well whose music this is. You can fall down the rabbit hole and listen to his music.

[4:42] Ebony Vines: Yes. Um, you know, I I the reason we do this again is also to get you really interested and excited about about a show you might not have heard about before you listen to this podcast.

[4:57] Pamela Shandrow: Well, and a lot of these shows were on Broadway for a blink of an eye. So you wouldn't have heard of them sometimes, you know. Sometimes they didn't have a cast recording at all.

[5:08] Ebony Vines: Right, like Shuffle.

[5:09] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, exactly. And that's how I learned about a lot of shows that because I was, you know, growing up in central Illinois, you know, you're about as far away from the New York theater scene as you could possibly get, but like I would go into the music stores when they still existed, um, and I would go through all of the cast recording or the cast albums that they had, and I'd be like, This one sounds fun. I'm gonna get this one.

[5:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah, and that's how I found like that's how I found Steel Pier. That's how I found um Sideshow when it was in its first inception. That's how I fell in love with Ragtime. I mean, like, there's so many shows like that. So, and this is one of those shows where it is really good music. I've been listening to it, and it's like it's campy, but like that's the fun of the show.

[5:54] Pamela Shandrow: Right, right. Okay, I think that's what you know. This musician, I I guys, I know his name, but she I want to let her like tell the stories, but um, you know, that this musician, like sort of like camp was sort of his totally like his deal, like sort of what he was good at.

[6:15] Ebony Vines: Yeah, he was he was camp, he was schlock. I'm gonna okay again break the anticipation. It's a Boy George.

[6:20] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. And if you have never heard of Boy George, and you might not have, you have heard the song Karma Karma, Karma, Karma, Karma Chameleon, or you really want to hurt me.

[6:36] Ebony Vines: Yes. No other reason than that, like some of these songs you hear in movie soundtracks today. Uh, you know, these are songs back from the 80s. These are the songs that I grew up listening to. Like, if mom turned on the radio on a Saturday morning, these were the songs that I heard.

[6:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah. This this touches me in the feels.

[7:00] Ebony Vines: So Boy George is actually his real name is George O'Dowd. Um, but for the purposes of this, I'm just gonna keep calling him Boy George. However, it may be slightly confusing because at times I will also refer to the character Boy George in the musical Taboo because it is kind of a um an autobiograph. It's not kind of, it is an autobiographical, but they've taken a lot of liberties with it as far as timelines are concerned and also um locations that people are in at the times that they're in them, that kind of stuff.

[7:33] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. I will also warn you up front, the only synopsis that I found which was on Wikipedia uh was from the West End production, which is vastly different than the Broadway production. They changed so much, and I'll get into that in why. But I also I couldn't find any like really detailed information on the synopsis. So I'm sorry about that. You're more than welcome to go and read what it is on Wikipedia from the West End version. Um, and hopefully I can find something because I fell down, I was telling Ebony earlier, I fell down a rabbit hole this morning because I was just like doing the bits and bobs at the very end here and was just discovering discovering discovering.

[8:16] Ebony Vines: So um I'm going to list the people, not the people, but the websites that I found information on, and that includes obviously Wikipedia.com, uh Broadway Musicalhome.com, which I have kind of loved. Have you discovered this website, Ebony?

[8:33] Pamela Shandrow: I have heard about this website, but I haven't gone to it yet.

[8:36] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's great. I didn't get a chance to like really delve in, but there's a lot of really good stuff to to um discover. Maybe this will help me on my next episode.

[8:47] Pamela Shandrow: Maybe so.

[8:49] Ebony Vines: So Broadway Musicalhome.com. We're also gonna hear from the New York Post.com, IBD Beep.com, uh, and there are a couple of others that I will give credit to once I am reading that portion of my script.

[9:03] Pamela Shandrow: All right. So Taboo is a musical whose original book was written by Mark Davies Markham, lyrics by Boy George, and music by Boy George, John Femis or Themis, Richie Stevens, and Kevin Frost. The book for the Broadway production was extensively rewritten by Charles Bush.

[9:24] Ebony Vines: So the plot of the show.

[9:26] Pamela Shandrow: It's Charles Bush.

[9:28] Ebony Vines: Yeah. That's so cool. I didn't know that.

[9:31] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[9:33] Ebony Vines: Yeah. That's a whole not guys. Fall down the Charles Bush rabbit hole if you haven't done that already.

[9:38] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. I know it is it's a lot. I can't include anything else from that because otherwise it would have taken up so much of my space here. But so the plot of the show is based partly on the new romantic scene of the 1980s. At its core, it's the life uh and career of the colorful pop star Boy George, who rose to global prominence in the early 1980s with his band Culture Club.

[10:04] Ebony Vines: They are the ones who wrote the song Karma Chameleon and the other one that I sang earlier, Do You Really Wanna Hurt Me?

[10:10] Pamela Shandrow: And his contemporaries at the time.

[10:16] Ebony Vines: So Boy George rose to grow global prominence in the early 1980s with his band Culture Club, but it was also about the career the career of his contemporaries at the time.

[10:28] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[10:28] Ebony Vines: Including performance artist and club promoter Lee Bowery, pop singer Marilyn, Blitz Nightclub host Steve Strange, leader of the electropop group Vassage, and then Philip Solon, who uh I'll get into him later, but he's a punk groupie and mud club promoter.

[10:50] Pamela Shandrow: Um, although George was intimate with the central figures, some artistic license was taken around the relationships and also the time frames of this production.

[10:59] Ebony Vines: So, oops, oh, I scrolled all the way to the bottom. I can't use my arrow keys, everybody.

[11:07] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[11:08] Ebony Vines: So the show premiered in London's West End at the newly opened venue theater on January 29th, 2002. Comedian and talk show host Rosie O'Donnell was so enamored with it that she decided to finance a Broadway production.

[11:22] Pamela Shandrow: After 16 previews, it opened on November 13th, 2003 at the Plymouth Theater, where, hampered by mostly scathing reviews, it closed after 100 performances.

[11:33] Ebony Vines: O'Donnell reportedly lost her entire $10 million investment in the project.

[11:38] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. I remember it being on her show.

[11:41] Ebony Vines: I remember. Well, and I'll get into this too. Well, let's talk about it now because the Rosie O'Donnell show was super uh informative on the Broadway shows that were going on at that time. And for a little girl living in central Illinois who loved Broadway beyond life itself at that point in time, like I checked in to watch the Rosie O'Donnell show every single day.

[12:06] Pamela Shandrow: And and Broadway Week.

[12:08] Ebony Vines: It was like the week leading up to the Tony Awards. She'd have live performances on there. It was amazing.

[12:13] Pamela Shandrow: And I think that you could probably find all of those on YouTube.

[12:17] Ebony Vines: YouTube, yep.

[12:17] Pamela Shandrow: Yep, yep.

[12:18] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:19] Pamela Shandrow: But it wow, it was so exciting. And then she had that night show for a little while.

[12:23] Ebony Vines: Oh yeah.

[12:24] Pamela Shandrow: Because I I found I I didn't I didn't watch that one because I honestly didn't really understand that it was happening.

[12:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I didn't either, really.

[12:33] Pamela Shandrow: I did hear about it though. Because like she did the um 2012 revival of Godspell.

[12:39] Ebony Vines: Like that oh, so good.

[12:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[12:43] Ebony Vines: Yeah. Man, that's my favorite cast recording of Godspell.

[12:46] Pamela Shandrow: It's so good.

[12:47] Ebony Vines: It's wonderful. And like the just the liberties that they take with their voices and like the way that it's just gorgeous.

[12:54] Pamela Shandrow: It's gorgeous. Stunning.

[12:57] Ebony Vines: Um O'Donnell said back in a 2007 interview about Lee Bowery that she will take Taboo back to Broadway in the future. So I think that I did read they had um not a full-blown performance, but they had it playing in a nightclub somewhere with a lot of the original cast.

[13:17] Pamela Shandrow: And I might have written that down, but if not, you can Google that.

[13:20] But they haven't actually done a full production of that show again, but you never know.

[13:25] I just did again, you guys, no arrows.

[13:25] No arrows.

[13:30] Okay.

[13:31] So the Broadway premiere at Plymouth Theater opened on November 13th, 2003 and closed on February 8th, 2004, after 100 performances.

[13:41] The original cast included Sarah Uriarty Berry, Jeffrey Carlson, Raoul Esparza, Liz McCartney, Ewan Morton, George O'Dowd, Carrie Shields.

[13:52] And I will tell you all of them later with what role they played, but that's just to give you a gloss over for now.

[13:58] Okay.

[13:59] Uh the director of the show is Christopher Renshaw, the choreographer, Mark Dendy, producers were Rosie O'Donnell and Adam Kenwright.

[14:07] Musical director was Jason Howland, scenic design Tim Goodchild, costume design Mike Nichols and Bobby Pierce, lighting design Natasha Katz, and sound design Jonathan Dean's.

[14:18] No arrows.

[14:22] I can't keep my fingers off the arrows.

[14:25] I'm sorry.

[14:28] So for the opening night cast, I'm gonna list them all here, including the ensemble members and swings and everybody because everyone gets credit.

[14:28] Opening night cast, uh Jeffrey Carlson playing Marilyn, Raoul Esparza as Philip Salon, Liz McCartney as Big Sue, Ewan Morton as Boy George, or just George as he's known in the show, George O'Dowd, also known as Boy George as Lee Bowery, Carrie Shields as Marcus, Sarah Uriarty Berry as Nicola.

[14:59] The ensemble members included, and you'll recognize some of these names, Jennifer Cody, Diony L. Collins, Brooke Elliott, Felice B. Gajda, I think that's how you pronounce the name, William Robert Gaynor, Curtis Holbrook, Jennifer K. Mrozik, Nathan Peck, Alexander Kiroga, Asa Summers, Denise Summerford, Gregory Treco, the swings included Lori Holmes, Jody Raynard, James Tabik, and standby for Philip Salon and Lee Bowery was Donnie R. Keshawars.

[15:35] Keshawars?

[15:37] Okay, I think that's how you pronounce it.

[15:39] So, you guys, what did I just do?

[15:42] Can you guess?

[15:43] You did the arrows again.

[15:45] I did.

[15:47] And it's getting easier because I'm getting closer to the end.

[15:52] So Time magazine is one of the places that I found a cool story, and I'm just gonna read part of it.

[16:01] Time magazine, this uh article was named Rosie's Bum Rap in Defense of Taboo by Richard Zoglin.

[16:07] There's nothing Broadway loves better than a juicy backstage drama and Taboo, that musical about 80s rock star Boy George with music by the grown-up boy George, George O'Dowd, and produced by talk show host Diva Rosie O'Donnell, offered plenty of fodder.

[16:25] There were canceled performances, reports of backstage fights, a star who walked out of rehearsal, a director nearly fired, all that, and a producer shuttling between the theater and a Manhattan courthouse where she was involved in a lawsuit with a former publisher of her defunct magazine Rosie.

[16:43] More than just watching the backstage story unfold, however, the chroniclers of Broadway love to play a part in it.

[16:50] This kind of pre-opening brew ha ha generally can have only two satisfying endings.

[16:55] First scenario, a determined creative team works through the problems, pulls off a miraculous turnaround, and the show is a surprise hit.

[17:02] Second, and more frequent, the troubles really do turn out to be as bad as everyone suspected, and no one can fix them in time.

[17:11] The show is a big sloppy, they got what they deserved flop.

[17:15] There's enough wrong with Taboo, a messy book, and a less than ideal production, that probably no one in good conscience can make a case for scenario one.

[17:26] Still, that doesn't mean the howling critics who are gleefully writing their scenario two endings are treating the show any more fairly.

[17:33] Not since Urban Cowboy has Broadway been littered with so much smoldering wreckage, announced the Wall Street Journal.

[17:40] The Washington Post critic found the show so awful that it drove him into questioning the entire institution of Broadway.

[17:47] The New York Times Ben Brantley gave this show that ultimate put down from the Guardians of Broadway, Taste in Class.

[17:54] It reminded him of Cats.

[17:56] Just how Cats, the most successful Broadway musical in Broadway, has an adventurous one in its day, has come to be a synonym for a mass audience schlock, is the subject for another day.

[18:10] But the real question is why the critics are so eager to turn Taboo into Rosie O'Donnell's personal Titanic.

[18:17] Yeah.

[18:17] And I think that they're talking about the ship and not the show.

[18:21] Although it could be the show, I don't know.

[18:23] Uh I liked Taboo when I saw it in London a year and a half ago, and I liked it on Broadway, though it has much changed.

[18:30] Uh oh, it is much changed.

[18:34] In some ways for the better and some for the worse.

[18:38] Junked almost entirely in the old, uh is the old book, which focused on a middle-class kid from the provinces who leaves home to join the glitzy decadent London club scene.

[18:49] The rewrite by Charles Bush, creator of Off-Broadway drag spectaculars like Vampire Lesbians of Sodom, eliminates this somewhat cliched character and plunges us more directly into club underworld and the rise and drug apple fall of its most famous denizen Boy George, played by Ewan Morton.

[19:08] The book is better now, but still too unfocused, with too many characters vying for stage time.

[19:14] Among them the campy cross-dressing narrator, Philip Salon, played by Raúl Esparza, the flamboyant performance artist Lee Bowery, played by O'Dowd himself, and assorted other men and women in their lives.

[19:27] Rather than a bustling tableau, this just seems like indecision on the part of the creators.

[19:31] Director Christopher Renshaw, who managed nicely in the small West End space where the show debuted, seems at a loss on how to organize the action on the big Broadway stage.

[19:41] And the choreography, which should be a highlight of a show like this, is pretty lame.

[19:46] But jumbled as it is, this musical is not to be sniffed at.

[19:50] The portrait of the freewheeling, sexually adventurous pre-AIDS club world is vivid, uncompromising, and often funny.

[19:57] And as a study of the perils of fame, the show is miles beyond the other biographical musical playing down the block, which was The Boy from Oz.

[20:05] Uh, with the exception of O'Dowd, who's a little stiff as Bowery, the cast is superb.

[20:10] I love that sentence.

[20:12] I don't love that sentence, but it gives me kind of like, whoa.

[20:15] Uh, with the exception of O'Dowd, who's a little stiff as Bowery, the cast.

[20:19] It's also his first time on like it's you know, it's also his first time.

[20:25] And theater is such a different beast than any other kind of performing that you do.

[20:29] So even if you've performed with a band your entire life, you know, acting is different.

[20:35] Um, I think that I will say it later in one of the other articles that I read, but one of them mentions that um when he's singing, it's uh so much different.

[20:47] So they they ended up actually taking out a lot of the scene work in lieu of songs, because once he was singing, you know, it was better.

[20:56] So that was interesting to me.

[20:58] Um, let's see.

[21:02] Morton, a sweet voice doppelganger for Boy George, and Esparza, an electric Broadway star who touches the humanity behind the high camp shallowness of Salon.

[21:10] So those were the two standouts.

[21:12] The real triumph of Taboo, however, is O'Dowd's music and lyrics.

[21:16] I do love this part.

[21:18] Among the best I've heard on Broadway in the past few seasons.

[21:22] And with the exception of the two old hits, Karma Chameleon and Do You Really Wanna Hurt Me, all the songs are new.

[21:29] The real problem with Taboo for most critics is the unspoken one, Rosie O'Donnell.

[21:35] The comedian and talk show queen may well have been in over her head.

[21:39] But let's give her some credit.

[21:41] She saw a show in London that was at the edge of what Broadway audiences would accept.

[21:46] And she gambled her own money to try to make it fly.

[21:49] She ran up against not only some sizable creative hurdles, but a Broadway establishment that secretly resents an outsider from TV, no less.

[21:58] Yep.

[21:59] Who presumes she can show the old guard how to do it, and so the fate of Taboo becomes a morality tale of theatrical hubris.

[22:07] But it's not true, folks.

[22:08] Wait, it's not true, but hey, it makes a great story, is how he finishes that article.

[22:15] You know, we still like you know, we want to put the blame somewhere.

[22:17] If something doesn't succeed, then it must have been such and such.

[22:17] It must have been the critics, it must have been the lead actor, it must have been the producer, the director.

[22:28] And a lot of that can be true, but I don't think it can ever land solely on one person's feet.

[22:34] Right, right.

[22:35] And I like I man, that whole boys' club situation, like you know, she's coming in with her own money and putting this show up, like at the time was still something like he said at the edge of what Broadway would accept.

[22:51] Yeah.

[22:52] Um, and you know, I uh, you know, friends and I are having these conversations about how, you know, with this pandemic that we're honestly still in the middle of, like people think it's over, and it's like it's not, guys.

[23:06] Look at the numbers, it ain't over.

[23:08] Um, but like that that Broadway has been brought literally to its knees, and there's like a new generation rising that wants to do things completely different.

[23:21] Yeah, and because a lot of these people who've been around for forever don't really know how to navigate this situation, and I think like it just really speaks to you know how hard it is for people with new ideas, a new vision of what Broadway can be to come in and change things and be accepted.

[23:47] Yeah, it's like it's like they don't want it, but it's like right now, because we're in this pandemic, you you you probably don't have a choice, yeah.

[23:56] No, and that's what's actually very exciting to me about what's happening with this pandemic.

[24:02] Yeah, we don't know what the face of Broadway is gonna look like at the you know when we you know finally are able to open up, probably next year.

[24:10] Yeah, it's gonna be thrilling.

[24:13] Do you remember this?

[24:14] Would have been I don't know, maybe like early turn of the century, early 2000s, when suddenly all of these shows were using um multimedia.

[24:29] Yeah, yeah.

[24:30] Do you remember when White Queen?

[24:33] Is that what no White?

[24:35] The White Something?

[24:37] Do you remember that musical?

[24:39] No, it's on our list because it didn't it didn't last very long, but it was one of the first ones to do like all projections.

[24:47] Yeah.

[24:47] What you're talking about.

[24:48] Yeah.

[24:49] And I remember people having a huge problem with it.

[24:49] Huge problem.

[24:54] No, it's everywhere.

[24:55] Yeah.

[24:56] I mean, that is just a very small example of what, you know, yes, it's gonna take time because now we're okay.

[25:05] Now we're accepting of it, but it's been 20 years since that kind of stuff has been used.

[25:09] I remember going to see um a production of Miss Saigon in Peoria, Illinois.

[25:17] So this was the touring company, and because they had downsized so drastically for the tour, there was no longer going to be a real helicopter.

[25:26] What they did instead was a projection of the helicopter.

[25:30] And I remember thinking, oh, it's gonna be stupid.

[25:34] It's gonna be so campy, it's not gonna be real at all.

[25:37] However, what they did was a very like theme park way of doing it, where not only did you have the projection, which actually looked pretty impressive on the back of the screen of this helicopter, but you also had speakers in and behind the audience.

[25:55] So you felt and heard the helicopter coming in around you before you see it on stage.

[26:02] It was I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it because it really was truly thrilling.

[26:06] And then you've got that coupled with the music and the moment that you know, all of these people are being, you know, left to basically probably be murdered because they were too American for now the Vietnamese people, and they're just being left to their own devices.

[26:23] Pamela Shandrow: So it's just awful. But it was, you know, it was such a cool experience. And so I think of that often when I think of the multimedia stuff because now you can't go see a Broadway show and not have some sort of projection.

[26:39] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[26:40] Pamela Shandrow: Somewhere it's true. I think the one in the last, yeah, five years that I've seen that had the least projection was um the Brian Darcy James um Christian Borle.

[26:57] Ebony Vines: Oh um something rotten yeah it had the least of I mean it was old school sex.

[27:03] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Which I really loved of that show too is that it was like musicals didn't exist until right it was, you know, until he wrote them. Love it. But yeah, I'd gotten a chance to see that one. But it was cute. It was cute.

[27:21] Pamela Shandrow: So there's another article that I read and this is just gonna be a very brief little thing because I'm going to read the whole uh article of these next two after this and I'm hoping that you'll be as excited as I was when I was reading it earlier. But it might be a lot but I think it's important to hear.

[27:38] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[27:39] Pamela Shandrow: One is uh from the Observer it's called Rosie and Boys Big Identity Crisis by John Hellipern. Uh this is just a little excerpt.

[27:46] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[27:47] Pamela Shandrow: You will have heard of the ma uh mess and uproar involved in the making of Rosie O'Donnell's ten million vanity ten million dollar vanity production Taboo. Now whether a musical about the drag queens and freaks of the 1980s London club scene will make it on Broadway is almost beside the point. But this I can guarantee, more or less, anyone including you and me and your mother could have told Miss O'Donnell what's fatally wrong with her show before the curtain went up. Had she listened, which is doubtful, perhaps she could have fixed it and saved herself a bundle. Risking life and limb, this is what you would have whispered to her by way of tactful advice. I'm very sorry, but I don't know what story you're telling.

[28:31] Pamela Shandrow: So there's that excerpt. So this is what I first read that kind of spiraled me down that rabbit hole this morning. Because I was like, wait a minute, what is this? Because there is a bit of scandal that we're gonna get into right now regarding Rosie O'Donnell and Raúl Esparza. Uh, perhaps you've heard of it, perhaps you've not.

[28:55] Ebony Vines: I did, but I didn't know the full story.

[28:58] Pamela Shandrow: Um, what I knew was like a brief glimpse into what it was. Um, so these next two articles, and I'm just gonna read them back to back, are gonna kind of go into what all that was and what happened. So this one is by the New York Post. It is entitled Taboo Post Mortem. What and Who Went Wrong? The agent for the member of Taboo Creative Team sat alone in Rosie O'Donnell's spacious office at 1500 Broadway. He'd been summoned for a meeting with the novice Broadway producer because he'd had the temerity to point out her failure to honor a key point in her contract with his client. O'Donnell burst into the room and pointed a finger at him. When the book on Taboo is written, she thundered, you will be the villain.

Then she stormed out. Well, it's time to write the book, or at least a farewell column on Taboo, a sad fiasco of a musical that will play its final performance on February 8th. But there are no villains in this story. Really just a volatile, distracted, and ultimately ineffectual producer, a weak director, a timid book writer who watched his key scenes get cut because they couldn't be acted or directed properly, and a star, Boy George, who wrote a fine score, let's give him his due, but he wasn't much of an actor. One person involved in Taboo calls the show a missed opportunity. There are a lot of really good things in it. There just wasn't anyone around who could pull it all together. Set in the London nightclub scene in the early 1980s, Taboo is an autobiographical musical about Boy George and his relationship with fashion designer Lee Bowery, who died of AIDS.

The musical was a minor success in London where it ran for over a year in a small nightclub. In retrospect, it might have been better off in a similar setting in New York. But O'Donnell isn't one who thinks small, and so she blew Taboo up into a $10 million Broadway musical with new sets, costumes, and a book by playwright Charles Bush. O'Donnell hired Chris Renshaw, who directed the show in London to stage it here. But Renshaw came with baggage. His revival of The King and I in 1996 was brilliant, but a year later he was fired from High Society because of erratic behavior and had pretty much been blackballed on Broadway. O'Donnell knew Renshaw's history, and according to sources, had a candid conversation with him during which he assured her he was up to the job of directing Taboo.

Bush, meanwhile, turned in a new script, a copy of which was obtained by the Post that dramatized the relationship between Boy George and Lee Bowery and contained a key scene in which Boy George appears at Lee Bowery's deathbed. O'Donnell gave Renshaw a wide berth for the first few weeks of rehearsal while she concentrated on what turned out to be an ill-conceived marketing campaign for Taboo. And that's when things go off track. Boy George, as Lee Bowery simply could not act emotional scenes with Ewan Morton, who plays the young Boy George. Renshaw was no help. Chris would say, Do you mind if we try this? And if George didn't want to, then Chris would say, Okay, and drop it, a source says. The show was crying out for a director.

It never had any guidance. A member of the production staff says O'Donnell gave Renshaw all the rope in the world to either swing like a star or hang himself. Unfortunately, he chose the latter. Scenes Boy George could not act very well were either cut or replaced by songs. They were chipping away at Charles' book every day, says a production source. Why didn't Bush fight for his work? Well, look, Charles isn't Arthur Lawrence, the person says, referring to the famously tough book writer of West Side Story and Gypsy. He doesn't like confrontation. And if they'd kept the scenes, they would have been badly acted and badly directed. Ironically, critics would later complain that there was no connective tissue between Boy George and Lee Bowery.

When O'Donnell started coming to rehearsals, she knew immediately that the show was in trouble, sources said. O'Donnell brought in a new choreographer, but when she tried to replace Renshaw with a new director, Boy George thwarted her. I felt it would be too disruptive, he later said. By this time, Rosie O'Donnell was swamped by her courtroom battle with the publisher of her defunct magazine Rosie, and according to sources, seemed to give up on Taboo. Plans to postpone the opening were scrapped, since without a new director, there was no point in trying to salvage the show. And Taboo drifted to its sad opening night and pummeling the next day by the critics. Taboo has lost money every week. The houses are only about half full.

And one source says the atmosphere's uh backstage is depressing. Renshaw pops in from time to time and encourages his actors to ad lib. And so Esparza now banters with the folks in the balcony while Boy George makes jokes about Michael Jackson. On Tuesday, when O'Donnell announced she was putting up the closing notice, Boy George, in a pouty mood, didn't show up for work. He did not respond to her request for comment, neither did Bush, Renshaw, or O'Donnell. No villains here, just the weak, the timid, and the lost. So that's a good article.

[34:19] Ebony Vines: Wow.

[34:20] Pamela Shandrow: No. And it was well written in a way that like he didn't really single anyone out. He really was very good about kind of finding the reasoning behind it all. Uh this next one is going to be about the spat. So this one is called Rosie's Thorny Spat, Her Broadway Show Rocked as Star Storms Out. This is by Michael. Is it Riedel, Michael Riedel?

[34:44] Ebony Vines: It is Riedel.

[34:48] Pamela Shandrow: It was Riedel, and I was saying Rydell in my head, and I thought.

[34:50] Ebony Vines: Well, because Greece.

[34:52] Pamela Shandrow: That's how it's spelled. Of course. All right, so Michael Riedel. And this was written on October 25th, 2003. So it was just about a month before they opened.

[35:08] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[35:09] Pamela Shandrow: This states one of the sexy young stars of the Troubled Broadway musical Taboo stormed out of rehearsals after clashing with the show's producer, Rosie O'Donnell. Raúl Esparza, who makes many theater critics swoon, pitched a divisive hissy fit on the stage of the Plymouth Theater Thursday afternoon because he was unhappy with a note O'Donnell gave him about his performances. Sources say they told the Post yesterday. Then let my understudy do it. In fact, let my understudy do the whole run. The hot-headed actor screamed at O'Donnell before leaving the theater in a huff. The rehearsal was suspended for several hours while Esparza's agents frantically tried to track him down. He returned to the theater later that night, and the rehearsal continued, though, in an atmosphere that one source describes as incredibly tense.

Neither O'Donnell nor Esparza would speak to each other, the source said. Reached on his cell phone yesterday, Esparza, who won rave reviews as the MC in Cabaret and is the star of the off-Broadway musical Tick Tick Boom, declined to comment on the incident. Through a spokeswoman, O'Donnell said, Raúl gives one of the most brilliant performances I've seen on stage, and I can't wait for Taboo to open on November 13th. Preview performances, which were to begin last night, have been pushed back until Tuesday evening. The note that triggered the blowup was minor. O'Donnell simply asked the actor to exit the stage sooner so that he would have more time to make a costume change. But, oh, I've got an advertisement, so let me scroll past.

In the theater, it's considered a major breach of protocol for a producer to give actor notes. That's the director's job. And some theater people have suggested that the incident was another example of O'Donnell's continued micromanagement of the show. She's putting up every penny of the show's $10 million investment, attends nearly every rehearsal, designed the ad campaign, which had to be changed after it failed to generate any business at the box office, keeps changing the marquee, and just last week brought in a new choreographer. But one company member insisted yesterday that this time around, O'Donnell was not out of line. She asked her director, Christopher Renshaw to speak to Esparza about his exit at least 14 times, the source said.

Both O'Donnell and Esparza have large egos. Hers from being one of the most famous women in the world, his from being a critic's darling. They eventually collided. Oh, that they eventually collided did not surprise anyone involved in Taboo. Esparza's forces say, uh, oh, as far as sources say, has annoyed O'Donnell by bad-mouthing the show around town and by demanding better billing and a bigger dressing room. Company members also say that he's in the habit of showing off one of his more prominent attributes by parading around the theater in his underwear. And while everyone thinks he's cute, they wish he'd put on some sweatpants. I think I might have mentioned some of I don't, I'm not gonna go into detail because it's not my place to say, but there is an opinion about him in Broadway, in you know, in the Broadway theater community, that he does have a very large ego, and to get in the way of that ego is at the detriment of you.

I will also say though, having read all of the stuff about Christopher Renshaw being um a a tepid director or just someone that's not willing to step in and actually be a leader in that space, that can be incredibly frustrating. I've done shows before where the director was terrible. I mean, one show where they had to replace him because it was getting to the point where none of us knew what we were supposed to be doing at any given time, and like so we all just kind of felt um insecure, and you never want to feel insecure when you're doing theater because you are already vulnerable.

[39:22] Ebony Vines: Right.

[39:23] Pamela Shandrow: So I can understand where where that might be because I think I might have reacted that way too if put into a scenario like this. But at the same time, you also have to temper it.

[39:36] Pamela Shandrow: You also you have to look at the situation and say, I'm not the only one here. The entire cast and crew are going through the exact same thing. So maybe it's not my place to be the only one that's put out and be the, you know, and to be the one that throws a hissy fit and walks out. Because that's kind of terrible too. Can you imagine like in the middle of rehearsal, everyone's going through this is like war? You're in the trenches with your buddies who are all fighting the same war with you. We're all in the same scenario, and then someone just gets up and walks away. I will I although I will say, like he had done two other shows where you know that he so he's built up a reputation. And when you see that like this reputation that you've had to work tooth and nail to build up is crumbling because people just won't like step up and take their place as leader.

[40:40] Ebony Vines: Sure. I mean, I can understand because also like the other thing is who like I don't know what if he had the him having the most power of any of the other actors and like making such a drastic proclamation of his frustration like could have potentially moved things in a different direction, whereas like the rest of the cast who you know some of them were newer, because it probably was a pretty young cast. Probably we're talking about like the 80s or like 80s culture, nightclub culture is probably pretty.

[41:21] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, yes, they would have been younger. I think okay, and I can see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you at a point, but there is a time and a place. And I am not sure that that would have been the time and place. Now, also having said that, yeah, if you're being approached by someone who's not technically supposed to be telling you anything, yeah, yeah. I can also see how you might be like, uh why are you here? Like, why are you talking to me right now? And if this has been an issue, but also, and I think I have another little bit of another uh a Seth Rudetsky article that I might read just now, but um where it goes into a little bit more detail on what the note was and why he was fighting against it.

Because in theater, we're taught take the note, say thank you, and move on. And if you have a question or comment about it later, go and find the director and talk to him directly about it. But during a note session, you never want to be that person that's like, oh, because I was trying to, this was what my motivation was. And uh you sure that that's the okay, you just say, okay, thank you, and then you write it down and you talk to him later. But in this particular scenario, he's getting a note from someone that he's not supposed to be getting a note from, but also the note itself doesn't make any sense and it's not going to help the situation.

[42:42] Pamela Shandrow: Let me read this right now. This was um a blog post on Playbill.com called On Stage and Backstage, Henchmen Aren't Forgotten by Seth Rudetsky. It's very, very long, and I'm only gonna read the parts that include um Raoul Sparsa. Uh so uh it comes in toward the end of this article, towards the ends of this blog post, but it says, We then spoke about him playing Philip Salon in Taboo. He said that the real Philip came to see the show on Broadway, and afterwards Raoul asked him what he thought. Phillips said, hmm, do you want me to be honest? Raoul said yes, mind you. Philip was still dressed in his going to the theater outfit, which was a Vivian Westwood white pantsuit, Vivian Westwood brooch, and an afro made out of shaving cream. Seriously. Philip shook his head and afro and said, Frankly, darling, I'm not that camp.

[43:40] Pamela Shandrow: Interesting. I dared to ask Raoul about the famous fight he had with Rosie O'Donnell during Taboo. He said that the rehearsal period was a very stressful time. The show was in the gossip columns a lot. Rosie was being sued by her former magazine, and he felt there wasn't a strong director taking control. During one rehearsal, it was apparent that Raoul was having a hard time making a quick change. Rosie asked him to exit the scene earlier so that he'd have more time to change. Raoul said he needed to be on uh he needed to be in that scene because his character needed the information being said on stage and wanted the costume change cut. The argument escalated until Rosie said that another actor could play his role just as well.

And Raoul said that she was right. He stormed off the stage and out of the theater. Unfortunately, and this is a very funny part. For those of you that think he had an incredibly sassy exit, please now visualize the outfit that he was storming off in.

[44:40] Ebony Vines: Oh no.

[44:40] Pamela Shandrow: Henry VIII balloon pants. A paper crown, an orb, a scepter, elf shoes.

[44:50] Ebony Vines: Stop! Stop!

[44:53] Pamela Shandrow: So, first of all, and this was also confirmed by Jen Cody, who was standing on stage with him at the time. His storming off was greatly desassified by his elf shoes. Plus, right before he got off stage, his crown fell off. Everyone in the theater, I mean everyone in the theater was stunned by Raoul's departure and froze in silence. The silence that was only broken by his dresser scurrying on stage, picking up said crown and scurrying off.

[45:30] Ebony Vines: How did they remain?

[45:33] Pamela Shandrow: No, can you though? I mean, just imagine like the tense atmosphere that there must have been, and now mommy and daddy are fighting. And it's like it doesn't matter what daddy's wearing. He's gonna leave, and it's gonna be like, oh, is he coming back? Um Charles Bush immediately laughing a little bit.

[45:52] Ebony Vines: I might have started laughing afterwards.

[45:54] Pamela Shandrow: Like, because you can't, like this elf shoes, and it's just like you're oh gosh, no, you can't go very quickly. Oh no. And I wonder if this is what I my picture is that the elf shoes also have bells on them. And that would just be hilarious. It'd be like jingle bells all the way off stage. Um Charles Bush immediately after this happened, tracked Raoul down and over lunch with Polly Bergen. They both convinced Raoul to get back to work as soon as possible. That's the end of that uh article that I kept. There is more to that that he goes into detail on different people in the theater world, but that was about Raoul.

[46:36] Ebony Vines: Okay. I think the sad part for me in putting this whole thing together is that we still really have no idea what the story is, who the characters are, right? The world was like then or now. Because it sounds so cool, like 1980s club culture, like Boy George in this, like I, and then and then the guy who thinks he's not camp is wearing a shaving cream afro, so he's totally camp, but like doesn't know it, which is like really fascinating. Totally the light that would have been shed on the LGBTQ community in the world of the 80s and also potentially today, was passed out before it had any real chance of succeeding.

[47:20] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. And instead, you know, you've got these critics that are denying us the story of the show in lieu of the drama behind the curtain. And if they're to be believed, that's where the interest lay anyway.

[47:32] Ebony Vines: Yeah. So I mean, that's I it is kind of sad. We're not really hearing, you know, anything about it. But I do want to end this with a pretty funny story. So I reached out to my friend Liz McCartney.

[47:44] Pamela Shandrow: She was she okay with us using her name.

[47:47] Ebony Vines: Yes, she is.

[47:48] Pamela Shandrow: I asked her.

[47:49] Ebony Vines: Yes, she says it's fine. Um, I know that's always the first question I asked. Do you want to be anonymous? Um, Liz McCartney was my first Madame Morrible. So I got to know her really well because I was learning the Madame Morrible track when I first joined the company. So I was watching her, I was hanging out in her dressing room, I was her secret Santa. But she was also she also played Big Sue in Taboo. Um, she has a wealth of stories, but one of the stories that she shared with me for this podcast is very, very funny. So I'm gonna say what these are her words. She emailed me. And I quote During rehearsals for Taboo, there was a scene that took place in the Portobello market. Everyone was in the scene except me.

I was sitting off to the side next to Dione Michelle Collins, the only African American girl in the cast. When the director started giving everyone in the ensemble their specific blocking and motivation for being in the scene out of the sight of her mouth, Dione said to me, Watch, he's gonna get to me last. I thought that was strange, but sure enough, someone pointed to Dione, and the director said almost dismissively in his very upper class British accent, Oh, Dione, you're shopping for your six children.

[49:06] Pamela Shandrow: While still sitting, Dione shouted, Why do black girls gotta have six kids? Everyone laughed, but the director got very flustered and stammered back at her, oh well, you're shopping. And he walked away. With that, Charles Bush, yes, that Charles Bush, he was our book writer, stood up and told the director, I'll fix this. He sauntered over to Dione and half whispered almost conspiratorially, actually, Dione, you're a prostitute and you're shopping for sex toys for your Johns. Being very pleased with himself, he turned to go back to his table when Dione stood up and shouted, Why the black girl gotta be a prostitute? And without missing a beat, Charles turned, beveled, threw his hands up in the air nonchalantly, and replied, Well, you gotta feed your six kids.

[50:02] Pamela Shandrow: You should know that I laughed so hard and so loud that they asked me to leave the room for the rehearsal. I was called for and the scene I wasn't even in.

[50:29] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it makes me a little sadder.

[50:32] Pamela Shandrow: Not, you know, it's the token black girl, and then here are all the stereotypes they put on her for her motivations. And she calls it out, and I couldn't be prouder.

[50:43] Ebony Vines: Oh my gosh, but she called them.

[50:45] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, that's the best part.

[50:47] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I think that's like she's like, why the black girl gotta be have six kids? Why the black girl gotta be a prostitute? Girl, I love her. And I think that's why it struck me so funny the first time I read it, and actually the first time that she told me, because I think that she told me that story when I first was, you know, knew her back when I was in Wicked. Um But at the same time, it's like not only are you dismissing the story of what could tell, you know, what could inform current and modern day LGBTQ kids.

[51:21] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, the story of what it was like to be in the 1980s and to really forge a path. Because these I mean, this was pre HIV, so like the these people were not taking any ri any um they they were taking all the risks. They were out there, they were proud, but it was before a time where that was acceptable anywhere.

[51:44] Ebony Vines: Yeah. Um, and so the idea that that story wasn't the one that was told, and instead we're just kind of sweeping it all under the rug. And then you also now got this one black woman in the show.

[51:57] Pamela Shandrow: The token.

[51:58] Ebony Vines: Token black woman, who's marginalized in the rehearsal process. And I'm sure that that you know, that's probably the case more often than not. I'm sure if I were to really delve into my history during rehearsal processes, I am sure that I've heard other stuff like that.

[52:16] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, totally. Also, the way and I have to now I'm gonna talk about myself here because reading that story made me laugh because of the way that she delivered it. And I'm sure that if I were there, I probably wouldn't have laughed as well. Which might have also been her intent, Dione's intent.

[52:34] Ebony Vines: Right.

[52:35] Pamela Shandrow: Because you don't want to be the angry black girl, right?

[52:38] Ebony Vines: Well, and that's oh but at the same time, like I don't I don't want exactly I can't be angry because I'm black.

[52:46] Pamela Shandrow: I have to come across as funny, but then everyone just dismisses it because it's oh funny, funny, it's a joke, haha. You don't have six kids, hello, haha. You know, that kind of stuff. So yeah. I mean, right, because like we um there was a play Rashida speaking that I saw that Cynthia Nixon directed. Um I love and it had Tanya Pinkins and uh Diane Weist. And it was basically about this idea, you know, black women and how they're perceived, right? So it's like the angry black woman, it's like no matter what you do, you have to overcompensate with, you know, like like when people come up to you, and you i if any of you have read these accounts, like you'll see in some of these accounts um that black people are sharing about their experiences in the theater.

A lot of them are talking about how somebody's always telling them to smile. Oh because like we can't have a isn't it gross? That's gross because we have because there's this idea that like if you're you know, it's like why I should be able to have like resting bitch face if I want to have resting bitch face. And it shouldn't be a deal. Uh-huh. You know, like anybody else is allowed to have that. So like, why can't I have that? Or you're just thinking, and so you're pensive because you're deep in thought, and then somebody walks past you and is like, smile. It's like, so I have to think about how you're feeling when I'm trying to just think. Right. Like thinking while black. Because I have I have been told to smile more.

I think that's also in the just being a female, just walking down the street. Some of the people too. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. Some of these accounts were black men. Yeah. But but you know, in the cases that I've been told, it doesn't make me smile. It makes me frown even harder and be like, look, who are you? Who are you? Just like ew. Right. Like I'm I don't know you, so why would I smile at you? Yeah. Hit the bricks is what I would say in my head. But I would just walk away. I know. Just make a face like what are you doing? Why ew and then walk away. Gross. Don't talk to me. I don't know you. Yep. Ugh. I know. Well, this is I'm sad about what happened to Taboo, but I hope that it does get some sort of like, you know, like some revival in the way that it was meant to be, you know.

So like if the West End production did so well, and like that's the thing about England, right? Is like they have the West End productions and they have so many cool spaces. Yeah. That their shows can take on all these different lives. In New York, it's just like we have like these 41 theaters. Yeah, that all look exactly the same except for circle on the square. Like if you want to do anything interesting, you can go to circle on the square. Meanwhile, you do have like really awesome off Broadway show spaces that could be, you know, you you know, and I think there's this whole idea of off Broadway being less than, right, which is stupid because a lot of really popular Broadway shows or a lot of really good theater has come out of off Broadway.

It's cheaper, it's less risk. So it's you know I'm finding what I learned though is it's not as cheap as it used to be. I mean there the shows are it's getting really really expensive. Gentrifying them I mean some of some of our instructors said they they came into they came into this world doing off Broadway for minuscules amount of money and they're like now because they're they've been in you know 40 50 years. Yeah they're like we couldn't we couldn't start off Broadway. Yeah now like it's so expensive. I mean I remember even the great Hal Prince saying you know the the the money he had to raise with like he said the little old grannies and stuff he said I couldn't be a producer anymore. Like he had to stop producing because it was just so expensive to put up a show and that's how Pransu has 21 Tony Awards.

Yeah. Like that's terrifying his 21 Tony Awards he like he's so well known and he's like I it's too expensive to do our Broadway show. And honestly that's the saddest part about New York City as a whole like everyone that is interesting or that has a a point of view that is interesting is being priced out. Yeah. And that goes for everybody not even just theater but like Astoria used it is known as Actoria because it is where the theater people lived because it was close enough to Manhattan to do go into town and and do your show but you could still afford to live here. Yeah. Now I mean I have a unicorn apartment and I won't be leaving anytime soon and it is still incredibly expensive to live here and if they bump my rent one more time i'm probably not going to be able to yeah so it's but that's what they're doing like they're taking what is New York City all of the different colors and all of the different voices and all of the different sounds and smells and sights and they're just making it so bland yeah pedestrian yeah it's really unfortunate now obviously I don't want to go back to a time where like you can't go outside of your apartment when it's dark out because you'll be mugged and beaten up or raped or murdered.

Right. But like there has to be a happy middle yeah a happy medium between 1980s being killed after dark and Elmo trying to harass a picture from you. Right off as one of my friends calls them off brand Elmos. So weird it's the Mickey and Minnie Mouse that are that are creeping out the most they're gross. I I very rarely go to Times Square if only if I can't uh you know avoid it but yeah it's not my favorite place to be I don't remember the last time I was in Manhattan well it's been a long time I mean obviously at least three months because I wouldn't have gone during the the pandemic but it's it's been a long time with that I mean now would be a nice time to go because nobody's there. That's very true.

Yeah. Well, they do have a lot of protests going on right now. Oh. Okay. There were there was a picture of Viking protests in Times Square. Oh. Yes. Well, I saw it yesterday. I'm not sure when the actual protest took place, but this is all like the Black Lives Matter movement. Um and then there was another one that was taking place further south. Um, Wall Street area, maybe in the financial district. I'm not exactly sure. Okay. But yeah, I mean, there so there are people that are the thing is, you mentioned it earlier. People have kind of forgotten the pandemic altogether. And there is a lot of other stuff that's taking the priority of our focus right now. But at the same time, I just read this on Facebook.

Someone posted this. We still have a virus, guys, that's out there like taking lives, and it's like where I am in Oklahoma, it's bad. And it's hit China again, guys. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes, and I don't know, because they said that the numbers were spiking in China again and that they were at risk of doing an another show. Another lockdown. And they're the ones everybody's like looking to for guidance because they had oh no. They made it through. They they passed it, you know, they've been wearing their masks, but we're not wearing our masks here. No. And that's the thing. And the numbers keep climbing. Yeah. Yes. Well, and and we never we never finished wave one. We're still in wave one.

Yeah. Well, and they they're saying that wave one could just go into wave two and just be one big wave. Like they're not even now, they're not even differentiating fall from this one. They're saying it's not, it's just never going away because nobody's listening, nobody's paying attention, and nobody's being vigilant. I read something on Facebook today. It was just a little meme that someone posted that was so perfect. And I wish that I knew the guy to give credit to that said it, but I can't remember, and I'm sorry. Uh, but if I can think of it, I'll post it on the on the Theater Geeks Anonymous Facebook post. Anyway, it said, let me get it together. It said the recordings. I just saw it. Okay.

I see like a little thing in the corner that says I didn't see it for a second. So that is the end of my little exciting script of taboo. I really do enjoy it. I know. I hope I've said it before, but I do hope something happens with it because it it sounds like it would be, you know, and and actually, even like if they could get what Charles cut, you know, and just do like uh Charles Bush cut. Yeah, there's a little bit on Wikipedia, like two or three sentences of some stuff that had been changed, but it didn't go into enough detail to really include it in what I wrote. And then because I mean, Ebony, I took probably 20 minutes rewriting what the synopsis was on Wikipedia because those things are always poorly written and I can't skip it.

Yeah, and then I was like, oh, it's different. And then I was like, I'm not gonna include this because it doesn't, it's not it doesn't translate to the Broadway production. So if anyone can find like an actual like a detailed synopsis of the Broadway production, I'd be super interested in reading and like going side by side with the West 10 production and figuring out what was different. I know that like some locations that they went to in within the show were changed. Okay. Um, but other than that, and and characters were changed, names were different from one production to the next, um, and relationships were different. So, like in the West End production, there he um boy George had a father and a mother, and the mother actually played very heavily within that production.

Um, and there was also another character named Sue, who was a friend of Lee Bowry and was in the room with Lee when Lee passed away from HIV and AIDS. Okay. But in the Broadway production, I think what they did was just make the character Big Sue, which is what my friend Liz played, and she is the mother. Okay. So like the or the mother character, whatever that reads as. So I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It's interesting though. Yeah, and especially when you had said um he had to cut some things because they weren't able to be played with like the gravitas and emotion that they needed. And I'm just like, if you get a really good actor in there, maybe you could put some of the stuff back in that Charles had written that he had to cut for those reasons.

That would be so nice. Yeah. And I will say too, there's not really any reason why Boy George had to be playing that role. Yeah. And I think I wonder if that was simply because they were trying to get butts in the seats, like if it was kind, you know, more stunt casting. Right. Yeah. Or if it was George saying he wants to be on Body. You're gonna do it, I'm gonna be in it. You know, but he didn't insist on doing the West End production, so I'm not really quite certain why he would have wanted to do the Broadway production unless Rosie requested it of him. Right. But I don't know. Yeah, all conjecture. It's yeah, sure is. That was it, that was a good one. Thanks for doing that. Hey, my fledge, my pledge.

You know, and it's so funny because even this morning I texted my friend Liz and I was like, oh, I have to pick your brain more about this. But then we had to actually do the recording and I didn't hear back from her soon enough. So maybe we'll do like a second like little mini sode about this. And and you know if she chooses to share some information now that she's been outed it might be that she's like I'm just gonna keep that all to myself now. I mean we'd even like we could do a mini sode with her as a guest since we figured out this whole Zoom situation. Oh my gosh. Knock on wood on that. Yes. Yes. Um but yeah I mean that's that's the story. That's what it is. So good. I wish we actually knew the real story. I know. I know. Well thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you as always happy Pride Month and uh we'll talk to you next time. Yes have a great whatever bye bye