This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:09] Ebony Vines: Don't you see? It's so simple. Step one, we Google the biggest flops on Broadway. Step two, we find the crazy stories behind them. Step three, we see how they lose millions of dollars. Millions! Broadway isn't cheap. A lot of fancy people want to be producers. Step four, find out why the show won't go on. Step five, end this episode and head to Times Square.

[0:31] Pamela Shandrow: Times Square! That'll never work. Only Broadway successes are in Times Square.

[0:36] Ebony Vines: Oh, ye of little faith. Welcome! What's up, Theater Geeks?

[0:43] Pamela Shandrow: What is up? This is gonna be a super fun series, like nothing we've ever done before.

[0:53] Ebony Vines: Yeah, well, sort of though, because I feel like I made a pretty good case for this.

[0:58] Pamela Shandrow: You did. But I will also say it is still a far departure from what we usually do because what we usually do is written material that was done for a very short amount of time on a Broadway stage or on a stage. And this is different.

[1:14] Ebony Vines: So tell us, because I was very actually very intrigued and excited when you asked me if this is something that we should do. So please explain what we are doing today, Miss Ebony.

[1:24] Ebony Vines: So we have started on the rewatching of the television show SMASH Journey. Super excited about it. It's funny because right before our call, you know, because you usually come to the arts prayer calls that I do. But for the SMASH rewatch, we're re-watching with friends, and then after we re-watch with friends, we're talking about it. So I had an arts prayer call before, and I was telling everybody I'm late for the SMASH rewatch, and none of them actually knew what the show was.

[2:03] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, really?

[2:04] Ebony Vines: No, it's one someone—oh you mean on the arts.

[2:07] Pamela Shandrow: On the arts call, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:09] Ebony Vines: The two we watched it with, they knew, they knew, wait a minute, yeah.

[2:13] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, but on the prayer call they didn't sing.

[2:15] Ebony Vines: Yeah, so I was like, well, we're really in our niche here where it's like not everybody knows. I mean, and these friends that we pray with, I mean, they're like two of them are like working on Broadway, you know, and then the other one's in a conservatory master's program for acting, and then my other friend, she's in a company at her local theater, like so, and she's been doing theater her whole life, like went to school for it, so it was just really interesting, like to tell them about it, and they were super excited, you know, when I explained it, but none of them had ever heard of it before.

[3:09] Pamela Shandrow: Well, if you recall when Glee first hit the air, it was very under the radar.

[3:17] Ebony Vines: Right.

[3:17] Pamela Shandrow: It was theater kids, and that was it. Those were the people that were watching Glee. But then Glee, it like then it got really like this momentum going.

[3:25] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[3:26] Pamela Shandrow: And then they started singing more popular stuff, and all of that stuff was added into it, and then it was like this really popular thing that happened. So that was kind of exciting. Smash is even more niche than that.

[3:37] Ebony Vines: Super niche.

[3:38] Pamela Shandrow: Because it is all about the Broadway world, putting it like writing a show, getting cast or casting the show and doing all of the behind the scenes stuff and then doing the actual performance. So unless you have a real interest in that, it doesn't really draw your interest at all.

[3:59] Ebony Vines: Right. And then even for some people who, you know, like I said, all the people on the call were like, wait, what? And then when I would give them they knew the names of the people that I said were in it and they were just shocked they had never heard of it before.

[4:12] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I know. It's interesting.

[4:14] Ebony Vines: Yeah. Well, and also I will say because I was working at the time that this was like on the actual TV and I had mentioned to you I watched maybe the first four episodes and I just really I couldn't quite get into it and I think that was simply because of the timing of it.

[4:28] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[4:29] Ebony Vines: Because you were on tour.

[4:30] Pamela Shandrow: Right, exactly. But when we watched that first episode again I was like okay I see this. I like this. You know what I mean? Like and also we'll have to we'll talk about a lot of this stuff later on I've gotten notes. It's very exciting. Like a lot of the stuff that I was seeing struck me in such a different way than it did when I watched it what was like six years ago.

[4:53] Ebony Vines: Yeah, two—well, it's no so it started 2011 but it was canceled—2000—No, I'm lying. Wait, wait, wait.

[5:04] Pamela Shandrow: 2012 I thought, right?

[5:04] Ebony Vines: No, I'm sorry it did get canceled 2013. So you're right it started fall I think it was actually it started fall 2011.

[5:16] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[5:17] Ebony Vines: Right? So that the first season ended May 2012 and then fall 2012 to summer 2013 is when it finally ended.

[5:27] Pamela Shandrow: So that's how, yeah. So nine—almost, yeah, nine years ago is when it first started.

[5:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I mean, that's also a little bit crazy because I don't know if you knew this, Ebony, but it's my birthday today.

[5:39] Pamela Shandrow: So I'm so feeling a little old.

[5:48] Ebony Vines: Oh, I suck as a friend. I'm bad with calendar.

[5:52] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, good. Okay.

[5:54] Ebony Vines: I'm so good with calendars, except when it comes to birthdays. I don't know what the hell. I have—do you know, and it's so funny because I never thought I'd be this person, but I have to in my phone have all of my nieces and nephews' birthdays in the calendar, otherwise I forget. Cause I remember some of them. Like the early ones, I'm like, yeah, it's in there. It's in there forever. But like the later ones, I'm like, I don't know. And two of them share a birthday. So that one shouldn't be difficult, but I cannot remember.

[6:28] Pamela Shandrow: Yep.

[6:30] Ebony Vines: Well, happy birthday. This is the fun. Did you work today?

[6:34] Pamela Shandrow: I did not. I have Sunday off now.

[6:36] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[6:39] Pamela Shandrow: So yeah, my—I'm telling you, apple picking with you and Christmas are like my favorite.

[6:50] Ebony Vines: Thank you. I will take that as a huge compliment. I love going apple picking with you too. It is one of those things. It's on the calendar. Like there are really only a few things that I have on my calendar that is there is no no no question I'm going. My beach vacation in May, which I had to miss this year, apple picking with you, and then the holidays at home. Whatever the holidays may be, it's usually January. But like those three things, those are like super important to me.

[7:18] Pamela Shandrow: I don't know though, because I feel like because it's such an open air area, I think that you and I should still be able to go.

[7:26] Ebony Vines: They might just keep the numbers down.

[7:29] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[7:29] Ebony Vines: So we'll see, which would even be better. Because who's going to be able to do that? But it just means like next month we have to like check in and see what their protocols are.

[7:40] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[7:41] Ebony Vines: Yeah. But I mean you don't usually go until the beginning week of October.

[7:48] Pamela Shandrow: So yeah.

[7:49] Ebony Vines: Yeah. But next month is September.

[7:51] Pamela Shandrow: I know. This is nuts.

[7:53] Ebony Vines: This week. And my birthday, it surprised me. So no shame for you.

[7:59] Pamela Shandrow: It crept up. Like last week I was going, I was looking at the calendar and like figuring out what my schedule was and like how many dogs I had, and I went, oh my gosh, next week is my birthday. It was like it took me by surprise. Because this whole year, since March, basically, has taken forever and also taken no time at all. It is the weirdest feeling.

[8:22] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[8:23] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. My brother's—my—I was talking to my brother on Friday, who informed me Hamilton's his favorite musical of all time, which brought great joy to this big sister's heart. But also I was—he was like, and my youngest niece, she'll be—she'll be three months—two, yeah, three months. Wow.

[8:54] Ebony Vines: This month.

[8:55] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. And I was like, crap. Like, usually over the summer, I will have seen her by this point. I will have met her by this point. I was like, I've usually seen the kids three times by this point.

[9:07] Ebony Vines: So hard.

[9:09] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. It's not the same by any means because it wasn't a quarantine that kept us apart or a virus that was, you know, killing hundreds of thousands of people, millions, really, globally, if you think of that in that spectrum. But remember when my nephew Dean was born and my sister kept him from us on the holidays? Because they were a thing. Like they had just been introduced to the United States again because these anti-vaxxers are idiots. And so she wasn't gonna bring him to see us because of this heightened risk, and he wasn't old enough to get the MMR vaccine yet. And so it was just so frustrating because then by the time we saw him, he didn't know who we were. We all loved him and like went to go reach for him and grab him and give him lots of love and kisses, and he was like scared out of his mind because he was like, like it was super clingy to my sister. And we were all so mad at her because all she had to do was bring him to that Christmas and he would have been fine. But yeah.

[10:12] Ebony Vines: Slightly the same, but not really the same.

[10:15] Pamela Shandrow: But yeah, I'm sorry.

[10:18] Ebony Vines: I know. I mean, we'll see, we'll see how it goes. I felt like when Joy was little, and when she was first born, I lived in Missouri. And so the time I'd visited her when she was only a few months old and got christened, I held her for something like eight or nine hours, but she was sleeping the whole time I held her.

[10:41] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[10:42] Ebony Vines: No, it was like five. I held her for at least five hours. I really did nonstop. But she was sleeping. So the next time she saw me, she's like, Who's this person? And then it took her a while to be like, I mean, we'll see if I like you. There was like a while of that kind of like little kid look. And then around like not yet two, she was about a year and a half. She warmed up.

[11:11] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and we were fine. But like I was like, listen, kid.

[11:17] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[11:18] Pamela Shandrow: You slept on me for five hours.

[11:20] Ebony Vines: She was like, I don't recall.

[11:22] Pamela Shandrow: We are blood. We are blood related. Get over here and give your auntie a kiss.

[11:27] Ebony Vines: She's like, I don't recall any of this.

[11:30] Pamela Shandrow: I don't know. You are.

[11:32] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[11:33] Pamela Shandrow: I—you didn't say joyous. Can I please hold you for five hours?

[11:41] Ebony Vines: Oh, kids.

[11:42] Pamela Shandrow: I know. She's my little buddy now. We're fine now.

[11:45] Ebony Vines: I love that.

[11:46] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[11:46] Ebony Vines: So yeah, you've got a great little relationship with her.

[11:50] Pamela Shandrow: She's great.

[11:52] Ebony Vines: Awesome. So back to the show, because hopefully one day I can show it to her, but it won't be until she's like 22, because wow.

[11:59] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[12:00] Ebony Vines: I know. It took me by surprise how overtly sexual everything was in this show. And I feel like I'm talking like an old lady by saying that, but it really is remarkable. I think only because it feels like it was such a long time ago. And we just didn't show that kind of stuff so long ago. But like this, so I'm just gonna skip ahead if you don't mind.

[12:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, go ahead.

[12:25] Ebony Vines: We can jump all over. Okay. Oh, just people—so people know, this is the pilot episode of SMASH. It's on the—it's on nbc.com for free. You download the NBC app. You can watch both seasons for free, and that's what we're doing, and we're gonna take you through both seasons. So I'm gonna skip to the middle of the episode. And these are—they're spoiler alerts. We're not gonna hold back. So if you don't want to listen to the spoilers, stop right now and go watch that episode, and then you can come back and listen to us. This is gonna be my very, very much like the podcast, How Did This Get Made? Have you ever listened to it?

[12:59] Pamela Shandrow: I love that. I love that podcast.

[13:00] Ebony Vines: This is one of my favorites.

[13:02] Pamela Shandrow: Jason Manzucas forever.

[13:04] Ebony Vines: I love him. He's the weird—he's like this weird combination of like really just soft-hearted and super sensitive, but like extremely dirty. Like he just kind of—man, I want to marry.

[13:23] Pamela Shandrow: Not the dirty part, but like his sense of humor is—I mean, he just makes me guffaw. And I will hoard those episodes for long car drives because I love it so much. But I will be in my car all by myself laughing out loud.

[13:38] Ebony Vines: He's—I just love it. He also loves Mazel, yes.

[13:43] Pamela Shandrow: So there's a podcast called Mazel Goys, and because he's a huge Amy Sherman-Palladino fan, he's on like a couple episodes of Mazel Goys talking about Mazel.

[13:55] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I'm telling you, such a weird combination of like sensitive, he'll cry at the drop of a hat on How Did This Get Made. He wants to like hold babies all the time.

[14:07] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[14:08] Ebony Vines: Oh, I love it. But so I'm gonna be very much like Jason Manzucas, I'm sure, in these episodes. But anyway, so skipping ahead to like the middle of the episode. So essentially, just in a nutshell, I know that you guys have already watched it, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. But for the people that decided not to listen to my advice just a second ago, the beginning episode, we see basically the workings of a show coming into fruition.

[14:35] Pamela Shandrow: So we meet the writers, and they get an idea by seeing a coffee table book about Marilyn Monroe, and they think, oh, we should write a musical about Marilyn. There's so much about her. And you know, one of the main themes was, oh, she married Joe DiMaggio. We could write a baseball number. And so in the middle of this show, they have kind of put together some of the songs, and now they're wanting to see it on its feet, just this one baseball number on its feet to kind of audition a director who's gonna choreograph and direct this one little scene. And this song, this is the one that was so overtly sexual to me. It really was the dancing they were doing and the gyrating they were doing together was like I almost was like, this wouldn't be on Broadway. Like, they don't do this kind of stuff on Broadway. I don't know though. I mean, I guess anymore. But I don't know, man. That I so I had seen um I had seen the concert.

[15:37] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[15:38] Pamela Shandrow: That they did a SMASH concert a couple of years ago and recorded it, but then they put it on YouTube as a fundraiser for um actors for Broadway cares. Okay, yeah. And so um I had forgotten about that song, and I I mean, honestly, I knew a bunch of the songs like in my head, but like I the numbers I didn't remember because I hadn't seen the show you know since it aired. So um, so I when that song came on, I remembered how raunchy it was gonna be just because I had just seen the concert like a month before. Um, but I remember watching it in the concert and being like, oh, I didn't, I woo, oh, I didn't remember.

[16:24] Ebony Vines: You were like, I feel like I was clutching my pearls during that.

[16:27] Pamela Shandrow: Like, yeah, clutching my pearls. Goodness. I was getting a little embarrassed.

[16:37] Ebony Vines: Oh man, yeah. I do want to call attention to one of the very first scenes that we see with Catherine McPhee.

[16:45] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, do it.

[16:47] Ebony Vines: That made my blood boil.

[16:49] Pamela Shandrow: Uh oh, what was it?

[16:50] Ebony Vines: This was within the first five minutes, Pamela, and you will remember it very well.

[16:54] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[16:55] Ebony Vines: So we see her in this audition. The phone rings in the middle of the audition, the person behind the table answers the phone in the middle of her singing her song. They say, shoo shoo, thank you so much, you can go. And she leaves and she meets up with her boyfriend at the restaurant that she works at, and he asks her how it goes, and she says something like, uh, they just they want me to be sexy and blah, blah, blah. But I'm, you know, but I'm not sexy, I'm the girl next door, so they don't see me and blah blah blah. She says the line, why do I have to be sexy all the time? I wish I was fat.

[17:29] Pamela Shandrow: I don't hear that.

[17:32] Ebony Vines: No. Oh my gosh. It made me so mad. And like, I must I'm amazed because we were all watching this together in a watch party on Zoom. So like I was on camera and I grabbed my notepad and my pen and I was like scribbling furiously because it made me so angry. Because that right there just again puts out into the spotlight how fat people can't be considered sexy, how fat people cannot be the love interests, how fat people have no place being anything other than the best friend or in the back. So messed up.

[18:05] Pamela Shandrow: It was so maddening. And I was like, did she just oh so mad?

[18:12] Ebony Vines: That's horrible.

[18:14] Pamela Shandrow: And that's just it, though. We saw a lot of things in this episode that are so true to the business that are all horrible.

[18:23] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[18:23] Pamela Shandrow: And that was just the opening line. It was I was I was amazed. I was amazed.

[18:33] Ebony Vines: But then in the like the next scene, not the next scene, but like several scenes later, then we meet up with Megan Hilty, who is the seasoned performer. She's been in ensembles on Broadway. She has relationships with these people that are making shows and putting them on and knows people, has connections, right? Has networked and done the work. She is, she had an audition, didn't get called back, and so she's back in her dressing room after a performance. She takes her wig and rips it apart and throws it on the ground.

[19:08] Pamela Shandrow: I was appalled. I was appalled. First of all, because we were not allowed in in the national tours that I did, we were not allowed to take off our own wigs. That was the job of the hair person.

[19:20] Ebony Vines: Union.

[19:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, there are there are very clear rules and very clear lines that you do not cross in this world. Such unless you have permission. Like there were some wigs that were fine if you took them off. I had a Page Boy wig that I wore in Phantom of the Opera, and I was told, yeah, that's fine. It's because it was literally like a Christine wig that they cut up because the page boy is just supposed to be this dude.

[19:47] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[19:48] Pamela Shandrow: And I could take that one off myself, but none of the other ones. These are these are very expensive lace front. They are quoffed every night before the hair people leave, and then the next day, all leading up to the performance. So like these are the work that goes into these wigs. So she did that, and my I had this like reaction, like, what are you doing? But the line that was said to her was like, you know, you're gonna get fined for that. And I was like, no, no, you should be freaking out right now because I'm freaking out right now. But it was like, yeah, I get it, you're you're frustrated, but don't destroy someone else's work.

[20:23] Ebony Vines: No, no. See, and that that's the soap opera E part of this show. We're like, that would absolutely never happen.

[20:33] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure that it would. I mean, there are some very narcissistic people in this business, and I'm sure that they have, you know, there have been people that have made very poor choices in this. But she was like ensemble member number five. You know what I mean?

[20:45] Ebony Vines: Like, you're not your ass is in trouble.

[20:50] Pamela Shandrow: You that would be a write-up immediately.

[20:52] Ebony Vines: Yeah, and it would be a fine, but that would absolutely be a write-up. That would be something that every producer and every higher up would know about. That would go in the show report. That is how important that is.

[21:05] Pamela Shandrow: That's crazy.

[21:06] Ebony Vines: I agree. What else?

[21:08] Pamela Shandrow: That's crazy.

[21:09] Ebony Vines: Oh, you know what I will say too.

[21:11] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I'm sorry. Do you have a little bit of a little bit of a little bit?

[21:12] Ebony Vines: No, it's okay, go ahead. Tell me.

[21:15] Pamela Shandrow: I just get so excited. And I think my little girl pad of notes. So I have to. There was a moment where she was um Meghan Hilty's character also, and I can't remember their actual names, so you're gonna have to help me out there.

[21:25] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's all right.

[21:26] Pamela Shandrow: So Mel Megan Hilty's Ivy Lynn.

[21:29] Ebony Vines: Okay, Ivy.

[21:30] Pamela Shandrow: So Ivy was singing a demo of one of the songs that this new this uh writing team, which is Christian Borle and Deborah Messing, are brilliant in they are two of my favorite characters in the whole show because they're just so perfect. Um but they're you know they wrote a song, they were gonna do a demo to kind of promote it, uh, and Ivy sings it, but you can tell that when she's rehearsing for this demo that she's singing live in the scene, and I was living for it because we don't do that anymore.

[22:02] Ebony Vines: Oh, sorry, my alarm's going off.

[22:03] Pamela Shandrow: We we don't do that on TV anymore, which part of my issue with anything musical theater related as you put it on TV or in the movie is that everything is so auto-tuned.

[22:15] Ebony Vines: Right, right, and I hate that. We've already had that discussion.

[22:18] Pamela Shandrow: Like I wanna hear the pops and the crackles and the character in your voice, and if it's auto-tuned, it's the blandest sound in the whole entire world. So there was like that moment where you're like, she's singing that live. It was very exciting.

[22:31] Ebony Vines: The um I know Lady Ms. They sang live, except for I think like the big scenes because you just none of his stuff was live.

[22:43] Pamela Shandrow: That makes sense.

[22:46] Ebony Vines: Yes, you are right. Now I think that they always had a safety for, I think that they recorded safety tracks in case they weren't able to capture it for whatever reason.

[22:58] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[22:58] Ebony Vines: Um, but I think that you're right, and that like all of the solo voices were live in that moment, which was really exciting.

[23:07] Pamela Shandrow: It does it doesn't it make such a huge difference.

[23:09] Ebony Vines: It really does.

[23:10] Pamela Shandrow: It really does. If Anne Hathaway's character, Fantine is crying, I want to hear the snot in her sinuses.

[23:16] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[23:17] Pamela Shandrow: There's something so much more moving about that.

[23:20] Ebony Vines: It's true. I completely agree.

[23:22] Pamela Shandrow: And uh I mean, you know, for this show, like, you know.

[23:27] Ebony Vines: I I was gonna make this joke, like at the end of the pilot episode. I just, you know, I just wish those girls could sing.

[23:36] Pamela Shandrow: You know, it'd be so nice, you know, if they could just belt, I know, carry a tone.

[23:41] Ebony Vines: They would just hire singers for these things.

[23:44] Pamela Shandrow: No, it's just so upsetting.

[23:49] Ebony Vines: So that's like, no, I mean, you guys, if you've seen the pilot, you know these girls can sing.

[23:57] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, but the thing is that like so often I'll see a musical show and I'm like, this is yeah, like what happened.

[24:06] Ebony Vines: This is disappointing.

[24:08] Pamela Shandrow: Well, it's why did you choose why did we choose these people?

[24:13] Ebony Vines: Well, there's so many actors who can do the job well who are not known. There is a scene in the pilot episode of SMASH that answers that question for you. They are in the casting process, they have gotten down to the callbox. And they're talking they're going between Catherine McPhee's character and Ivy, and they're saying and the director is very clearly saying, No, I no, they don't have they don't have the power behind them. They we need a name we need butts in the seats we need someone that's got the power and Derek Wills yeah thank you Derek Wills who's the character's name oh he's a terrible human being he's I mean Christian Borle's character um Tom Levin screams about it like so I mean he y literally screams he's a terrible person and it is the truth it's so it is the absolute truth Derek is a horrifying human being and he's based on so many real people in this business it's disgusting and he plays it well because you he really does you hate him from the start yeah he's this this tip this stereotypical director who and in this particular case he's a straight director so he he is chauvinistic and he's sexist and he doesn't he doesn't give women their their any of their own authority he he takes it away from them point out one weird thing though sure okay so okay so he rants and raves about how we need a name how we need a name but then when Karen comes in it's like he forgot that no right he's so enamored of this girl okay and okay there's so much to talk about I feel like we're like guys watch this show but mostly we're gonna tell you about it.

[26:18] Pamela Shandrow: So, oh, this made me so mad. So they have the initial auditions for the Marilyn role in this show. And they show an Annaleigh Ashford, I'm living for Anna. I saw her waiting in the room, and I was like, or in the waiting room, and I was like, oh my gosh, I totally forgot that she was doing this, and she's wearing the gentleman prefer blonde, strapless pink dress, looking exactly like Marilyn. She gets in there singing, I wanna be loved by you, and was like thanked summarily and like let go and just she's brilliant, and I love her. But anyway, getting back to getting back to the point.

[26:55] Ebony Vines: There's gonna be a lot of that, I'm sure.

[26:58] Pamela Shandrow: So we get into this, okay, right? And I'm just I'm just gonna say that in an audition setting, this is a professional setting, right? You're going in there. This is our job interview. Right. You you dress nicely, you look the part, whatever that is. You don't necessarily want to dress up like Marilyn Monroe, but you want to give them an idea that you would fit the character if you were cast that way, right?

[27:22] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[27:23] Pamela Shandrow: So you give an illusion to it. Uh, an illusion, not an illusion, uh, of the character, of the vintage, of the vibe. Catherine McPhee.

[27:34] Ebony Vines: Karen?

[27:35] Pamela Shandrow: Karen uh Cartwright, yeah.

[27:38] Ebony Vines: Karen Cartwright.

[27:39] Pamela Shandrow: Karen walks in the room, skinny black jeans and a button-up three-quarter shrew quarter sleeve shirt, and sings a Christina Aguilera song.

[27:50] Ebony Vines: Okay, there is so much wrong about that.

[27:54] Pamela Shandrow: But to the director, this is such a refreshing change that he is smitten. He is taken so much by her that he disappears, and it's just the two of them in the room as she's singing, and it's like the most ridiculous thing I've seen in my life, and it makes me angry.

[28:12] Ebony Vines: I will say though, when I listen to the words of the song, I got why they chose it.

[28:18] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[28:19] Ebony Vines: I totally got it. I was like, it makes sense.

[28:22] Pamela Shandrow: It's refreshing a to not hear somebody do another Marilyn Monroe song. There are some composers who get they get frustrated when you sing exact you know what I mean?

[28:34] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[28:35] Pamela Shandrow: But like, yeah, she just she looked like a girl from Iowa.

[28:40] Ebony Vines: But if you're I know, right? If you're if the show numbers are musical theater or jazz or big bands, you don't go in and sing a heavy metal song.

[28:53] Pamela Shandrow: Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm making I this is a an exaggeration on my part. But you don't sing a pop song at a Broadway musical theater audition unless it's a pop musical. Right, which this is not gonna be. And it was on U lens. Oh my god, U lens. You knew she was sitting in a chair copying all the words to the song.

[29:17] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[29:18] Pamela Shandrow: Like mimicking Ivy.

[29:19] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[29:20] Pamela Shandrow: So she knew. Of course she did. Yeah. She knew exactly exactly the kind of music that she was meant to sing or meant because that was what the show was about. But she's also meant to be this kind of like I grew up in Iowa, and I don't know anything about Broadway. I just know that I want to be a Broadway star. So I'm gonna move to New York and work as a waitress, and that's how I'll get there. She'd been to like three auditions and was getting frustrated that it wasn't happening for her.

[29:49] Ebony Vines: I mean, like, this is not the way the business works. Look at Ivy for that.

[29:54] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, she went to college and she trained, and then she worked her way through to get a foot in the door. And she, I'm gonna say a spoiler alert, has a famous mother.

[30:06] Ebony Vines: So it's not like she had to work for it, but she chose to. Now, now, okay, I don't remember if wait, no, you're right. Her mom did work on Broadway, but I feel like we don't know that until season two, right?

[30:22] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, we don't know that yet.

[30:23] Ebony Vines: Okay. But regardless of even knowing that or not knowing that information, like you can see that her path was a, you know, essentially a meandering but straight line.

[30:36] Pamela Shandrow: Right, and she's still, you know, second girl from the right in the chorus.

[30:42] Ebony Vines: Exactly. Sometimes it just works that way. Sometimes you get a Broadway debut, your first audition out, and sometimes it takes you years, and sometimes you turn 39 today and you haven't been on Broadway yet. That is just the way it works.

[30:55] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's the truth. I was it was so funny. Um, do you know Randy Reed?

[31:01] Ebony Vines: Randy Reed?

[31:05] Pamela Shandrow: Big Randy Reid. She's a big Chicago actor, but she's also she was uh played Morable on Broadway, has done a lot of stuff. Uh she's won Tony Awards, she's amazing, right? My dad knows her from college. And so when I first moved to New York, yeah, I think it was when I first no, it was when I first moved to Chicago. I was there for like three or four months, and nothing was panning out, and I was getting so frustrated. And so my dad put me in touch with her just to kind of pick her brain and see, you know, what I needed to do or if I was on the right track and whatever.

[31:36] Ebony Vines: And the first question that she asked me was, How long have you been trying, hun?

[31:39] Pamela Shandrow: And I said, I've been here for like three or four months. And she goes, Well, so sweet.

[31:46] Ebony Vines: What a sweet woman to have the patience.

[31:49] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, totally. But I think I think everyone needs to hear that. Do you know like it's not gonna it's not gonna happen overnight? Maybe it will for you, and that's amazing. But then it's not gonna happen again. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not. I left two national tours thinking I'm gonna go back to New York and I've got this resume and it's and I'm gonna hit the ground running. And the truth of the matter is things change so quickly in this business that if you're not around, they forget you.

[32:19] Ebony Vines: You could be working for them, and they will forget you because you're not in the room anymore.

[32:25] Pamela Shandrow: That's why it's me. I watched um CBS This Morning had Linda Lavin.

[32:30] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[32:32] Pamela Shandrow: And she's adorable. Adorable. And she's 82 years old, and she said, So you did you watch the 90th, uh, the 90th birthday celebration for Steven Sondheim that happened a few months ago. Have you caught up with it yet?

[32:49] Ebony Vines: I'm not sure.

[32:50] Pamela Shandrow: It's on YouTube, and it's my favorite thing that happened the entire quarantine. Because things got messed up so horribly at the beginning, remember? So she's in it, and she sings a song from a musical she was in in this early 70s, I think, or mid 70s. I think it was like 1976, actually. But she talks about how she got on the 90th uh birthday celebration, and she she went basically to a message board, and and it was like announced, and she goes on the message board and she's like, um, or maybe it wasn't a message board, but it was the comments online, and she commented, and it says Linda Lavin, and then it says the time, and then her comments like uh it's something like you know, I'd like to sing such and such a song from this musical. By the way, this is Linda Lavin, right? Because she was like, nobody asked me because people think I'm good.

[33:53] Ebony Vines: Yeah, you know, she's like, You're gone for a little while, and every people forget about you, so you have to remind them.

[34:00] Pamela Shandrow: That's what she said.

[34:01] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's so true.

[34:03] Pamela Shandrow: It is so true.

[34:04] Ebony Vines: Yeah. Oh, business. Why do we choose it?

[34:09] Pamela Shandrow: She, but you know, she said in the last two to three months, she'd been working more in quarantine because she's making her own stuff, she's doing her own little cabarets at home.

[34:21] Ebony Vines: Nice.

[34:21] Pamela Shandrow: Um, she does a cabaret at home, and she has Billy Stritch plays the piano for her. She's like, I've been working more in these last two to three months than I have in the last two to three years.

[34:31] Ebony Vines: Oh wow.

[34:33] Pamela Shandrow: And she was like, and she says this when she says something that people might be shocked by in the interview. It's very cute, but she's like, and I'm not joking. I'm not lying.

[34:48] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[34:49] Pamela Shandrow: Well, sweet. I mean, we choose this business as crazy as it is because there is a passion and drive to tell stories.

[34:58] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[34:58] Pamela Shandrow: And tell stories in this particular way, and it's like, we don't do it to get rich or have a ton of money. Like, there is a call to doing this work.

[35:09] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[35:10] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, otherwise, you're not gonna do it.

[35:12] Ebony Vines: Right.

[35:13] Pamela Shandrow: You're gonna do something else. And a lot of people our age have left to do other things.

[35:19] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[35:19] Pamela Shandrow: And me, myself included.

[35:22] Ebony Vines: Yeah, no, it's very true.

[35:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. It's hard.

[35:26] Ebony Vines: It is a hard business to be in.

[35:28] Pamela Shandrow: It's a hard because it's it's continu you have to continue to prove yourself every moment. And that's a lot of work.

[35:34] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[35:35] Pamela Shandrow: And it's a lot of work to do for free. Do you know what I mean? Like it's that's very difficult. And now, I mean, there's been a mass exodus from uh New York City because Broadway is too expensive, and it's too expensive to live here if you're not working.

[35:41] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[35:41] Pamela Shandrow: Too expensive to live here when you were working. Period.

[35:55] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[35:56] Pamela Shandrow: So then it's like then you're not working, and then it's like it's impossible.

[36:01] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's very true.

[36:05] Pamela Shandrow: Um, all that to say, okay, so back to the show.

[36:09] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[36:10] Pamela Shandrow: Um, let's talk about. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the assistant because the assistant's the one who actually um suggested they do Marilyn. And being that I have been an assistant in many different capacities, I was just like, in what world would you record their work and put that on YouTube?

[36:23] Ebony Vines: Like, in what world?

[36:38] Pamela Shandrow: I was this makes me angry. Would that be okay? And you should be fired immediately. There are no repercussions for any of the bad behavior in this show so far.

[36:50] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[36:50] Pamela Shandrow: Like there's just none. So this consistent while in this demo recording situation with Ivy and the two writers, gets out his cell phone and subtly records Ivy doing this number.

[37:03] Ebony Vines: It wasn't that subtle because the phone was on the phone.

[37:06] Pamela Shandrow: I know, right? But it was supposed to be was for our benefit, for the audience's benefit, it was supposed to be ninja-like, right?

[37:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[37:13] Pamela Shandrow: And he posts it to ULens, which is supposed to be YouTube.

[37:17] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[37:18] Pamela Shandrow: And it blows up. Now the writers are incredibly angry and frustrated by it. They should be so because now their work is out there to be criticized as well as liked.

[37:31] Ebony Vines: And the criticism, and I love that they made Michael Riedel part of this by calling him Napoleonic Nazi.

[37:37] Pamela Shandrow: Well, that's the other thing. This isn't like who's Michael Riedel? And I was like, You're fired! You're fired. Why are you working in the theater? You're fired.

[37:46] Ebony Vines: Right.

[37:50] Pamela Shandrow: Especially, like, especially working in the place that you're in right now. You're working for a Broadway writer, like a composer and writer. Like, so I don't understand how you don't know. Just the I mean, I know who Michael Riedel is. He's never critiqued me, but I know who he is. Like, it's so ridiculous to me. I couldn't. Like they play it off like, I'm just too young. I'm I'm don't know I don't know anything about the world.

[38:17] Ebony Vines: So he says that he sent an email to his mom with this video and that she uploaded it.

[38:22] Pamela Shandrow: So stupid. Mom can't even get on Zoom without a ton of help. No, there's no he did it. He's a big jerk, but whatever, they keep him, right? Uh but it was it was ultimately his idea to do the Marilyn musical. Like he was reading the Marilyn Monroe coffee table book, and then they were starting to talk about Marilyn Monroe.

[38:39] Ebony Vines: And the two writers were starting to talk about Marilyn Monroe, and then he was like, You should do a Marilyn musical.

[38:48] Pamela Shandrow: And they were both like, no, no, it's been done. It was and it was terrible. No way, no way. And then they started, you know, talking about it and getting the inkling of an idea. And then as soon as Christian Borle's character said we could do a baseball number, then it was like, haha, we should do this, and and then ultimately they did.

[39:04] Ebony Vines: This is my question. Okay. So Deborah Messing's character is taking a year off from writing anything.

[39:11] Pamela Shandrow: She's taking a year off because her family is wanting her family who is, her husband is Brian Darcy James, who might love. And then he's got like a teenage son as well. They're taking the year off so that they can adopt the trials. Why does she have to take a year off in order to adopt a child?

[39:29] Ebony Vines: Well, I mean, from person like I have never adopted, but I do have friends who've been through the process. It is so much work.

[39:38] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[39:39] Ebony Vines: And so, like, if she, you know, like like what Brian says is once she gets into a doing a show, she's never home. Like you you get um, like you don't know when they're coming to your house to just inspect to see when it's up to par. You don't know exactly when you're kidding a kid. You know, like my friends who adopted a little girl last summer, like they got one and didn't have all the stuff they needed. They were like, She's coming, and they had to be ready in three or four days. Like you just you you don't know.

[40:15] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. So I guess I didn't realize that that was well, and that's ridiculous. So we can talk about that in another episode. It's wild. I'm just like, wait, I'm sorry, what? What is going on what?

[40:27] Ebony Vines: It was just lonely writing and not also trying to get it like produced and like turn it into a thing, maybe.

[40:36] Pamela Shandrow: But like he, I mean, there's no possible way, like you could, you know. He he was right to be angry. I got it. Well, I do understand where his anger was because they had talked about it and agreed to do some, you know, one particular thing, and now all of a sudden she's, you know, in it. But I also think it felt very much like a device to me instead of like coming from a true place.

[40:57] Ebony Vines: But I guess now that you've explained it, maybe that does make a little bit more sense.

[41:00] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. It just seems like, oh, that's the excuse you came up with that she had to take a year off.

[41:07] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I mean, cause cause then too, it's like, you know, I don't know if they had decided on which way they're going. Are they going with an adoption agency or are they gonna go with a lawyer? If they're gonna go with the lawyer, then they have to do more work on the you know themselves. It's it's like so arduous, but I mean, ultimately worth it. So many kids need good homes.

[41:26] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, totally. But yeah, it's it's I probably would have said the same, but it's just because I have some friends who've been through the process.

[41:34] Ebony Vines: No, that makes more sense. Thanks for explaining that.

[41:36] Pamela Shandrow: No problem. I was like, I don't know, don't you just go to the baby store.

[41:44] Ebony Vines: I know it's not as easy as that.

[41:46] Pamela Shandrow: I know. I'm not I'm not such an idiot. That was a joke though.

[41:49] Ebony Vines: That was I we know, it was funny.

[41:53] Pamela Shandrow: Then, okay, so then we were just talking about Michael Riedel, and they made the comment. Deborah made the comment, she was like, This made me so laugh, and I wish that I had written it out all, but then I would have missed some other stuff that was happening. But she said something like, you know, he Michael Riedel panned Spider-Man before anyone even got named.

[42:09] Ebony Vines: And it made me laugh out loud.

[42:13] Pamela Shandrow: I know we did the whole two-part, and that was pretty great. That was a great one.

[42:16] Ebony Vines: Before anyone got named.

[42:20] Pamela Shandrow: Oh Lordy. The show's so unfortunate. That whole show. Well, and I do like though that they were making um popular culture references, but popular culture to Broadway.

[42:34] Ebony Vines: So it's wonderful.

[42:43] Pamela Shandrow: So yeah. I will say one other thing that I found just delightful. There's this scene that Ivy is on the phone in her kitchen talking to her mother.

[42:55] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[42:56] Pamela Shandrow: It's the tiniest little kitchen. It's got a stove, a tiny little countertop, and then a sink. And I thought that is the most accurate representation of a New York City apartment I have ever seen in any TV show or movie in my life.

[43:10] Ebony Vines: It's true.

[43:11] Pamela Shandrow: I was living for it because that people get this um uh these expectations of what a New York lifestyle is friends' fault.

[43:22] Pamela Shandrow: It's because of friends.

[43:23] Ebony Vines: Oh my gosh, that's a friends and Will and Grace.

[43:26] Pamela Shandrow: Deborah Messing, I'm looking at you again because that apartment's not realistic.

[43:32] Ebony Vines: He was a lawyer, so it might have worked that way that he was able to afford that apartment.

[43:37] Pamela Shandrow: Maybe it was a co-op that he bought. I mean, because like the terrace really.

[43:42] Ebony Vines: Well, listen, the friend's apartment was no.

[43:44] Pamela Shandrow: That no, because that apartment would have gone for like six thousand dollars a month each.

[43:49] Ebony Vines: At least, yeah.

[43:49] Pamela Shandrow: At least. And so there's no way that those friends are paying for that apartment.

[43:53] Ebony Vines: No.

[43:54] Pamela Shandrow: Nope. No.

[43:55] Ebony Vines: But anyway, but this particular, I was like, yes, that looks like my kitchen. I know this. I know this apartment. And it's real. And it's like it made me think, like, I wonder who on the cast, they were like, can we just film in your apartment? It was so realistic. I loved it.

[44:13] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, that was the best one. Cause Tom's and um oh gosh, what's Deborah's name on the show? Let me see. No, I'm sorry, I'm not using their names at all. I need to write a key. Uh everyone's Tom, Tom and Julia.

[44:30] Ebony Vines: Julia.

[44:30] Pamela Shandrow: Julia. Um, their apartments were not realistic.

[44:34] Ebony Vines: No.

[44:35] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, Tom had a foyer.

[44:39] Ebony Vines: I know.

[44:40] Pamela Shandrow: He had a grand piano. He had a huge living room, kitchen, office.

[44:47] Ebony Vines: Nah uh.

[44:48] Pamela Shandrow: No. Nah. Not it. No. No. We're living here. Like, maybe they're living in like Maplewood, New Jersey.

[44:55] Ebony Vines: No, it was the city. Because remember, remember when uh okay, so remember when the assistant comes back and is sitting on the porch.

[45:06] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[45:06] Ebony Vines: Or not the porch, but the steps.

[45:08] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it was clearly like an upper west side apartment building.

[45:11] Ebony Vines: Yeah, but that's still that's not.

[45:13] Pamela Shandrow: Not for what he's making. You don't get rich off of musicals.

[45:17] Ebony Vines: And like we're gonna do it. Unless it's Hamilton or DEH.

[45:20] Pamela Shandrow: No, absolutely. You're right. You are so right. Then also like look at Derek, Derek the director's character, like his apartment that he was just like living in temporarily while he was in America, was like this industrial warehouse, gorgeous apartment.

[45:39] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[45:41] Pamela Shandrow: I don't even know like I don't even know what I would do with all that space.

[45:47] Ebony Vines: It was I mean, so unrealistic. So completely unrealistic.

[45:52] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, so let's talk about that scene because that's okay. So this is because that's the last note that I wrote, and I knew we were gonna come to it, and I just didn't care myself. So we got all the fun stuff out of the way. So this when we we're when I had mentioned earlier that there's a lot of stuff that happens in this that is based on real life people and real life events that have happened in this business, I am speaking specifically about the character of Derek the director.

[46:22] Ebony Vines: Who I've already said is a chauvinist, he's a narcissist, he is a sexist, yeah, and he's disgusting.

[46:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, he uses people, he manipulates them, and I'm speaking specifically about young, attractive women who are dependent on him for a job, yeah, uses them and manipulates them into doing whatever he wants them to do just at the prospect of being cast in one of his shows.

[46:52] Ebony Vines: Yeah. And it's disgusting. It's awful. I mean, this is, you know, we we've I talked about I've mentioned this t two other times this week, but you know, Michael Kilgore in his, you know, uh video manifesto, as it were, he he said, you know, there's a lot of theater people who haven't been outed for what they've done, and it's gonna come out. And you know, in this episode, while nothing happened, nothing ha like ac happened to her. What did happen to her is like mentally it was like mental abuse.

[47:38] Pamela Shandrow: You know, she is at her apartment with her boyfriend. She's working on her scene for the next day's callback. Yeah, and out of the blue gets a text message from Derek the director saying, I'm assuming, come on over and we'll work on the scene together.

[47:55] Ebony Vines: Yeah. So she puts on some clothes and she hops on the subway and she goes to his apartment where he berates her and makes her feel like less than nothing. Yeah. Asks her, oh yeah, you were working on the scene. What were you doing? And she was embarrassed by this question because what she was doing was very private. Yeah. Uh, and and she said something like, I was working on some like it hot. Uh, and so he said, Show me in a gross, creepy, lecherous way.

[48:28] Pamela Shandrow: Yep.

[48:29] Ebony Vines: And she freaks out. You can see the panic and the embarrassment, but also that thought in the back of her mind like if I mess this up, I'm done in this business, and I've already proven to my parents that I can't succeed. So she runs to the bathroom and she's crying. And then in this moment, she kind of lifts her head up and her eyes are full of tears, but she decides, okay, in for a penny, in for a pound, and she goes out there wearing his nothing but his button up white shirt and sings happy birthday, Mr. President. And then at the end, and this is where I love it. Because at the end, she goes, not gonna happen, and gets her butt out of there.

[49:09] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and I was thinking the whole time I was like, please, please, please, just get out, get out, get out. Just get out of the room. I'm like the wind, Karen. Because she's lucky.

[49:17] Ebony Vines: Yeah. There are too many stories about girls that have been taken advantage of. No. There are too many stories. And they have not come to light because out of embarrassment, because they need to save their career, because you know, whatever it is. Afraid of repercussions.

[49:37] Pamela Shandrow: Well, we look at the other thing. And unfortunately, these men are still in power.

[49:41] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[49:41] Pamela Shandrow: Goodness. Harvey Weinstein is the one that everyone knows about right now because he was put out there. This was the Me Too movement. All of these actresses, these stuff, Hollywood A-list actresses came out and finally said, he raped me, he, you know, manipulated me, he made me feel this way. He this is what he did. This is his casting couch. And it'd been happening for decades.

[50:06] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[50:07] Pamela Shandrow: And and unfortunately, it is the nature of this business. And I think for a long time, much like sexual harassment, you just kind of took it in stride. Do you know what I mean? Like, even I felt this way when I was first in the business. It's like, you know, we just we tap each other on the butt and we talk to each other that way. And like it's just a very physical place where you know, it you have to become very intimate with people very quickly to be able to do theater. And so, like, yeah, these are just the normal things. But even like, even hearing myself say that right now makes me feel a little bit icky because I did feel that way. Like at one time in my in my professional life, I thought this was an okay behavior. And as I get older, I really understand that it is not.

[50:57] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[50:57] Pamela Shandrow: That nobody gets to touch me unless I want them to. It's another person talk to me that way. It's another part of the white patriarchy that we are dismantling, right? Like this is another piece of it that still has a lot of reckoning that has to be done because what has been happening for so many generations is like, you know, white men have been on top, and so they've suppressed everyone else.

[51:29] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[51:29] Pamela Shandrow: Everyone else. So women, no matter what race, racial background they come from, they've all been suppressed. LGBTQ plus, because it's mostly straight, cisgendered uh white men. And so, you know, this is another huge, you know, we have the Me Too movement, we have Times Up, but I there's so many who are still working, who are still operating in this fashion, yeah, who are who have their their reckoning is coming but hasn't come yet, and it's just it needs to happen soon because there are people whose lives are being destroyed. There are very talented people who have left the business because of the ways that they've been treated, the ways in which they've been assaulted and the and the ways in which um they've been manipulated.

[52:19] Ebony Vines: And I think that poor people that have left the business before even starting because they were unwilling to put up with the change.

[52:25] Pamela Shandrow: That's right.

[52:26] Ebony Vines: And they were ostracized or blacklisted because they were unwilling to do so, and so I mean, you know, this that that scene, I remember feeling like pissed off when I watched it, but it's just like a whole other level. Um, when I hear just so many of the stories coming out. Not that like I don't have my own Me Too, you know, moment.

[52:52] Pamela Shandrow: Sure.

[52:53] Ebony Vines: I think we all do.

[52:54] Pamela Shandrow: We all do.

[52:56] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I mean, that was like oh I know. Super frustrating. Um something that needs to be dealt with on a happier note.

[53:08] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[53:09] Ebony Vines: Can we please talk about the ending of the episode?

[53:11] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[53:15] Ebony Vines: Because I it's so corny, but I still get chills watching it.

[53:21] Pamela Shandrow: Don't hate me.

[53:24] Ebony Vines: It's a good number.

[53:26] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. It is a real all I will say that I do remember liking all of the musical numbers that it were introduced in this show. They're all really well written. But this particular, what's the let me be your star is the name of the song, right?

[53:39] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[53:40] Pamela Shandrow: Start off with Catherine McPhee's character singing, and she's just getting ready for the callback. Uh, and then you skip to Ivy's character, and she's or Ivy, uh, who is also getting ready for the callback, and she sings her part of it, and then they come together and the voices together are just beautiful, and it's like it is really, it is a really stirring moment. But I think, you know, you and I, and anybody that grew up loving musical theater, those are the numbers that we love so much and that make us feel they stir our hearts, they make us want to see and sing musical theater. Like, those are the numbers. You know, and in every show, there is at least one of those numbers, and we all everyone knows every single word of those numbers.

[54:27] Ebony Vines: It's true.

[54:28] Pamela Shandrow: Great. They're so good.

[54:28] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[54:30] Pamela Shandrow: So yeah, I agree with you. I was goosebumpy as well.

[54:36] Ebony Vines: Oh.

[54:37] Pamela Shandrow: And those two ladies can sing so well.

[54:40] Ebony Vines: Oh man.

[54:41] Pamela Shandrow: You know what? Their acting is impeccable too.

[54:45] Ebony Vines: Impeccable.

[54:46] Pamela Shandrow: For Catherine being serene.

[54:48] Ebony Vines: Completely.

[54:49] Pamela Shandrow: And I think, and she was the one that was even most moving to me, too, because in especially in the scene where she's in uh director, disgusting director's apartment. I don't even want to use his name anymore. He's just gross. Um you can see everything written right there on her face. And it's so it's so brilliantly acted because it's not like in your face, it is all of the subtext going through her mind.

[55:16] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[55:17] Pamela Shandrow: And it's so good. She's she's really good. I think across the board, there's not a single actor that I don't like in this show.

[55:24] Ebony Vines: Yeah, no, they're all great.

[55:25] Pamela Shandrow: I mean they're all really good. I I would I I had, I don't know if I like Angelica Houston's entrance.

[55:35] Ebony Vines: I know.

[55:36] Pamela Shandrow: Just I was like, okay, I remember watching this and being like, I want to be her when I grow up, minus the divorce. Like, I don't want to go through any of that.

[55:46] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[55:46] Pamela Shandrow: Um, but just like I mean, she is going to do what she wants to do. And even if her like I mean, just by Yeah.

[55:59] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[56:02] Pamela Shandrow: The skin of her teeth, her nails digging in. She will get this show produced. And it's just like that one pilot episode. I remembered her whole arc. And like her as a woman fighting. Like all these men in power to try to get this show about a woman who was, you know, looked down upon and treated as a an object and not as a human being. You know, just I mean, thought, tooth and nail for the two years to get that show produced. Like almost went bankrupt. Almost was homeless to try to get it up. And I just was like, I remember watching and uh, you know, I don't know that I want to be that close to bankruptcy or in trouble or anything, you know, but just like that tenacity.

[57:04] Ebony Vines: Yeah, totally.

[57:05] Pamela Shandrow: It's it's just yeah yeah. The importance of it. There is there is a passion behind it.

[57:11] Ebony Vines: Good. That's I love it. Have we missed anybody?

[57:17] Pamela Shandrow: Um I don't think so.

[57:20] Ebony Vines: I don't think so either.

[57:22] Pamela Shandrow: The son didn't really have a big part this episode.

[57:25] Ebony Vines: Like he will eventually.

[57:28] Pamela Shandrow: Um the husband, her ex hasn't had a big part yet, but he's gonna be another piece of garbage man.

[57:36] Ebony Vines: Uh um.

[57:41] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and her and and um Karen's boyfriend Dev.

[57:47] Ebony Vines: I did remember his name. I don't know why I remember his name and nobody else's. He has later on in the season, he has a great like Bollywood. They have a great Bollywood.

[57:55] Pamela Shandrow: I love Bollywood.

[57:59] Ebony Vines: Yeah. It is a guilty pleasure for me because it's so it's it's just the other side of the coin to musical theater's flaws as far as I'm concerned. Like I love it. There it's it is over-theatricized. It is it is amaz and I love the dancing, and like there's always hundreds of people involved. Big Bollywood numbers. I love Bollywood. So that that's later on. That should be fun. Um that will be fun.

[58:27] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm always nervous now because I'm like, I remember in 2011 it was fun, but like, is it racist now? I won't know until I see you know what I mean.

[58:41] Ebony Vines: That's why I'm like hesitant. I'm like, it could be great, it could be terrible. I don't know because I haven't seen it in a few years.

[58:48] Pamela Shandrow: Well, let's just say, because I think you we can what we remember it being can be the same as what we remember, but we can always come back and say, okay, listen, so I've changed my mind. We're always allowed to do that.

[59:01] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah. I think we're always allowed to do that. There's a lot of stuff that I've gone back and watched and been like, oh, that's problematic. Like, you know, and it's not just the nine years ago, it's you know, going back several decades.

[59:16] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Um well, even the first line that I just mentioned. Like, why do I have to do that? I don't even remember that. I c I'm I'm so angry about that line. It's she's it's when she first sits down at the table with Dev at the restaurant that she works at, and that's what she says. It's ridiculous. I mean, it was just like, what? So that was problematic.

[59:39] Ebony Vines: In my real life, I actually have a tank top that I pulled out of the closet to wear. This was a couple weeks ago. And it's uh got a colorful picture of an owl. But what I didn't realize is that the owl is wearing a Native American headdress and it says be brave. Oh so I took it out and I went, I can't wear that anymore. No. And I threw it to the side and I was like, but I even like went, is this appropriate? And I was like, it's not appropriate. No. It's not anymore. And that's just the nature of what we're going through right now.

[1:00:15] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. And I think that, you know, this was a very easy change to make. Uh just Marie Kondo that, right?

[1:00:22] Ebony Vines: I know, right? Well, I'm just gonna throw that in the garbage can, actually, because nobody needs to be wearing that. No. But he literally was like, I never would have thought about that, except now it's in my consciousness, which is what this whole movement is about. And I think watching back episodes of stuff like this, seeing where the problems are helps us to make better decisions now.

[1:00:43] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, that's where that's why history is so important.

[1:00:46] Ebony Vines: It's true, it's true, and learning the real history and not just the making peanut butter part of it.

[1:00:56] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, because I just heard a story. So George was never heard of that though.

[1:01:01] Ebony Vines: I've never even heard that saying. Okay, well, I just made it up. So we were taught that George Washington Carver invented peanut butter, but he did so much more. Like he basically fed all of his black and and other people of color in his area. Like in his area, he fed them, he kept them fed. And when my people decided they were no longer gonna, oh, you're not gonna be our slave anymore. Well, I guess you're cut off for good then, right? So then these people were starving. George stepped in and was like, Well, I'm taking care of my people and did that. We know him because he invented peanut butter, which he didn't even do.

[1:01:42] Pamela Shandrow: Right. No, he didn't. That was, I mean, I had only just heard that, and that was because of TikTok.

[1:01:50] Ebony Vines: I'm learning so much on TikTok.

[1:01:55] Pamela Shandrow: That should be I mean, that's illegal. That should be illegal. Like that's something like that. Because I remember learning that in school.

[1:02:04] Ebony Vines: Right. Well, we have to remember though, who writes the history books, right?

[1:02:08] Pamela Shandrow: Yes. Why does it be a good idea? That's why we don't know how they'll keep their power.

[1:02:12] Ebony Vines: Right. Right. I saw um, well, I did see it as a like a meme, but also my therapist said this to me. I love my therapist. Black, I mean, she's a black woman, so it's like when I'm front, like, and she loves Jesus.

[1:02:34] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:02:35] Ebony Vines: Um, but she said, she said, um, she was like, she said, white people really know that we're special and that we have incredible power. And she's like, and this is why the society wants to hold us back because the moment we realize we have the creativity, the power, the strength, everything that God has put within us, yes, then we will excel and they're gonna be pissed off. They know that.

[1:03:11] Pamela Shandrow: I'm getting I'm getting a little bit of a quickening in my chest.

[1:03:17] Ebony Vines: It's so good because it's so good. I felt that way for a long time about being a woman. And if women were given just an opportunity to show what we are truly capable of, that we would we would be much more a part of the decisions that are being made.

[1:03:37] Pamela Shandrow: So it is it is every marginalized group of people. Yep, if we were allowed to show our potential, we would overtake the people that have been oppressing us.

[1:03:48] Ebony Vines: Yep, that's right. That's right. I I remember um having this discussion with my roommate, and I said, and we like had this discussion and and then started saying, you know, I was like, I said, Megan, we just need to have the confidence of mediocre white men. And then I was like, wait a minute, that's that's like a t-shirt, or I think that's on a friend's bag or something. And so then, like a few days later, I went to Italy with my friend Kaylee. Yeah, and the last day we're in Rome, and she pulls out her bag and is walking around, and I and it says, carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white man. And I said, you it was you at the bag. That's where I see it.

[1:04:34] Pamela Shandrow: That's amazing. That's brilliant.

[1:04:41] Ebony Vines: That is brilliant, and I love it. Well, and here's the this is the this is the ear the the part of it that makes me so angry. Is that the people, and I'll just call them the people in charge because that's essentially what they are. The people in charge think that by giving other people power by giving the marginalized their due, yeah, that they are then going to end up as oppressed as the marginalized people that they have put there, right?

[1:05:11] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:05:12] Ebony Vines: But that's not actually the case because the people that would come into their own power would never put another human being in a position to feel oppressed or marginalized. But that's the thinking. They don't want to be in a position that they are putting other people.

[1:05:30] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:05:30] Ebony Vines: Well, and I think the other piece of that though is like when that's how your brain works to oppress other people so that you can be on top. Of course, you're gonna think like other people are gonna do that to you because that's how you operate.

[1:05:47] Pamela Shandrow: That's right.

[1:05:50] Ebony Vines: So, like the notion of equity like doesn't register because it's like, no, no, no, that's not what's gonna happen. They're gonna try to oppress us, and that's why you have like white supremacists walking around saying things I won't repeat about other people groups, um, because they don't want to be replaced.

[1:06:12] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:06:14] Ebony Vines: I mean, listen. Maybe we shouldn't they need to be replaced at this point. If you're thinking like that, you do need to be replaced.

[1:06:23] Pamela Shandrow: Yes. If you're gonna be an accomplice and an ally, then you can walk with us and be in an equitable society where there's room for everyone to be successful.

[1:06:33] Ebony Vines: Yes. There's this great graphic that I've seen, you've probably seen this as well, but there's three three people all trying to look over the fence. Uh, and it shows the difference between equality and equity. And in equality, they all get a tree stump to stand on. But you've got a really tall person that could already see over the fence, and then you've got a medium-sized person who can now see over the fence, and then you've got a really short person that even with the help can't see over the fence. But then in equity, you give one tree stump to the medium-sized guy and two tree stumps to the short guy, and suddenly now everybody can see over the fence. So it's not an issue anymore.

[1:07:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:07:15] Ebony Vines: That's all we're asking. If you don't need a tree stump, don't take one from someone who needs to.

[1:07:20] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:07:22] Ebony Vines: It's as simple as that. It seems simple. And like these memes seem so simple. But people still are just like not. Oh man. I don't even know how we even get on this.

[1:07:35] Pamela Shandrow: I don't even remember.

[1:07:40] Ebony Vines: I know we were talking about the show.

[1:07:46] Pamela Shandrow: Um who knows? Learning oh, you're watching past episodes and not really remembering whether or not they were problematic.

[1:07:53] Ebony Vines: Yes, that's right. That's right. But well, it's a we hope we you guys, you know, enjoyed this new format that we're taking this season. Yeah. We're gonna do this for the I think it's a total of 30. 37, 34.

[1:08:11] Pamela Shandrow: 34 episodes.

[1:08:13] Ebony Vines: Um it could be that we double up some, who knows? Yeah, we don't know. But we're uh we are gonna do all of them. Yeah. And uh, you know, I hope that you join us for the ride. It's a who knows how long we might be closed down again. Nobody knows what's going on because the numbers are going up. So listen, you might have plenty of time to binge watch. NBC is free, theater's not opening until God only knows when.

[1:08:42] Pamela Shandrow: I was talking to the city. On that note, I do want to say be an arts hero.

[1:08:46] Ebony Vines: Yeah, guys, call your Congress people, follow be an arts hero on Instagram. We gotta help our people out. It's rough. Please. You were asking, you know, I well, I'm not asking for it. The Broadway community and the people that have been affected by this the most are asking for that continued $600 per month along with their unemployment insurance because they cannot work right now.

[1:09:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:09:11] Ebony Vines: Their job and also now their backup job are both the kind of jobs that do not, you know, are not essential. So we need to be able to take care of our people because arts is incredibly important in this society, and if it disappears completely, we are not anything that we should be. Remember the fall of the Roman Empire? Let's just remember that. I bet, and if you don't know, guys, Google it. I mean, come on.

[1:09:38] Pamela Shandrow: Um, one last thing I will say too is I saw um Billy Porter on MSNBC. He did Morning Joe because he's one he's uh he's one of the like founders of Be an Arts Hero. Yeah, and so he was giving some statistics that were really really startling. Um most of them I knew, but the worst one that has just messed me up since I saw it, was he said 12,000 arts in institutions have already said they know they won't, there's no possible way they'll return after the pandemic.

[1:10:17] Ebony Vines: Oh, that's such a shame.

[1:10:19] Pamela Shandrow: Twelve thousand.

[1:10:20] Ebony Vines: Twelve thousand. And that was just as of a few days ago. Like, I mean, the way things are going, that number could will probably go up.

[1:10:28] Pamela Shandrow: Well, and let's be honest, you know, at this point, I I think well, we were talking about this before. I'm skeptical by nature for some reason. And I almost want to say that it's that even spring of 2021 is maybe maybe being a little bit too optimistic.

[1:10:44] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're talking about, you know, in March, Fauci said 18 to 24 months for there to be a vaccine, like you know, and it's just like the economics of Broadway just don't work to only have 27% of the audience in the theater. So, you know, and then you've got a lot of anti-maskers, you know, you've got anti-vaxxers. I don't know what to do. Like me that will not feel comfortable going into any establishment with more than a than a handful of people until there's a vaccine.

[1:11:18] Pamela Shandrow: Right. Well, like, and that's why I said even with anti-vaxxers. You have anti, you know, so it's just like I just support the arts, guys. Please.

[1:11:29] Ebony Vines: Well, and hashtag save the arts as well. Follow that.

[1:11:33] Pamela Shandrow: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[1:11:35] Ebony Vines: Yeah. That's yeah. So that's important.

[1:11:38] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for listening.

[1:11:42] Ebony Vines: Yes. Uh, we're excited to be with you next week about episode two, watch on the nbc.com app and follow along with us. Please.

[1:11:51] Pamela Shandrow: Bye guys.

[1:11:54] Ebony Vines: Bye.