This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:07] Harrow: Hi, queers. Welcome to the final episode of season two. And we saved a legend for last. Today we talked to advocate, organizer, and storyteller Cecilia Gentili.

[0:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ+ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective. Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folk from Brooklyn cabaret performers to people backstage and on Broadway. For many queers, theater has been an escape. This podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're heading as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:51] Harrow: Hi, Holly.

[0:52] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Hello.

[0:53] Harrow: Last episode for a minute.

[0:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I know.

[0:57] Harrow: And like it's almost the end of 2021.

[1:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Which is very strange.

[1:03] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I don't even know where this year went.

[1:07] Harrow: No. It was as speedy as last year was long. Um yeah, we're recording this like mid-November.

[1:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's coming out beginning of December.

[1:19] Harrow: Whether we like it or not, people are already telling us the holidays are coming.

[1:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I feel like Halloween is kind of the start of the holidays for me. Like I'm like, oh great, they are here.

[1:32] Harrow: They've arrived.

[1:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: They've arrived. Halloween is ushering them in.

[1:38] Harrow: Yeah. That's true. I feel like I need to look at it that way.

[1:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but I feel like every year we're starting to get more and more like here's a queer holiday movie, or here's a queer, like for better or worse, right? Um is there a holiday, and take this as broad as you want to holiday tradition or like artistic piece that you would like to queer or see queered.

[2:06] Harrow: Oh, wait, what do you mean artistic piece?

[2:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, yeah, that's that was broad too. Like a movie, like a holiday artistic piece.

[2:16] Harrow: I see, I see. Um, I mean, Halloween is probably my favorite holiday, also why I get excited for that. So um I love any like queer Halloween stories. I have recently become uh more into horror milk scary movies because my partner uh loves them and she makes me watch them, and so now like my tolerance has definitely built up. Um because I remember like one of the first scary movies I saw in college, uh was this like French horror film called I don't remember what it was called. It was a French horror film, and my we were watching it with a group of my friends, and my friend was like, Holly, you're gonna love it. It's gay, and they're lesbians, and I'm like, done, I'm in. Um flash forward to me like hiding under a blanket and then crying halfway through the movie because I was so scared.

And my friend was like, Do you want to leave and go back to your dorm? And I'm like, Yeah. Um, but I kind of want to watch it now because I feel like I could handle it now. But um, yeah, that was not that was it was a really intense movie. I I wouldn't recommend to start with that. Uh, but yeah, if we could get more queer Halloween stories, I would love that. Queer horror just works so well, I feel like too.

[3:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, but not in a tropey way. Like, I want someone to really yeah.

[3:37] Harrow: Like the horror is like heteronormativity or you know, yeah, I'll just like put the queers in it to kill them kind of thing.

[3:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, exactly. What was the name of that movie?

[3:50] Harrow: Uh it was um it's called High Tension.

[3:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And it does live up to its name.

[3:58] Harrow: And there uh spoiler alert, there's a dog that dies.

[4:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So No You don't have to does the dog die. That's important.

[4:05] Harrow: Yeah. That was I think the first time I cried was when the dog died.

[4:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, I think for me, like for the holidays just like we could do more like queering the idea of gathering around the holidays. Um that's why I'm like so pumped to be here for Thanksgiving this year. We get to hang out together. And I was talking to my friend today who has always been in the city and he's like, Yeah, staying in the city for Thanksgiving is the best because you just get to go to all your friends' house and hang out with the people you don't have time to see. And I was like, Yeah, that's what holidays are supposed to be about rather than like stressing yourself out about getting to a place that you're supposed to be, right?

[4:50] Harrow: Yeah. Um so yeah, I think for the holidays, like queering the idea of gathering and the idea of who we air quote should be gathering with and spending time with, um is interesting to me.

[5:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I can't first of all I can't believe that you like traveling for Thanksgiving is the norm for you because yeah, I did that like twice and like, oh no, never again. Um yeah, I also think about that too as like someone who I'm not sure if I'm gonna have kids or not, like what that will look like, you know, when my parents pass on, like what the holidays will be, if it's just like me and my partner, or like I you know, will it be hanging out with our other queer friends who also don't have kids or like going to their their or friends who do have kids and hanging out with them, like what is that gonna look like. Um you know, my my family is pretty small and then but Lucy's family is huge, so we'll see. But yeah, just like queering what family is and and gatherings, that's so true.

[5:53] Harrow: Yeah. It's like I feel like there's a lot of the the norm is to think of like, well, you'll make your own traditions like with your partner or with like your n what is traditionally thought of as a nuclear family, but I feel like the past year and a half or so has taught us like you already have your family, like just make your traditions now with the people who are already your chosen family.

[6:20] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I know this isn't news to a lot of people, but it's like a new thing for me to think about.

[6:25] Harrow: So yeah.

[6:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, I'm excited to to celebrate some of the upcoming holidays with you, and that'll be a nice fun new tradition.

[6:34] Harrow: Yeah, it's gonna be great.

[6:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I'm excited for mac and cheese.

[6:37] Harrow: Yeah, I bought all the ingredients yesterday. I'm excited.

[6:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Great.

[6:40] Harrow: And 24 Hawaiian rolls.

[6:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Hell yeah.

[6:44] Harrow: That's great.

[6:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, I love Hawaiian rolls so much.

[6:48] Harrow: They're so good.

[6:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: They're amazing. So we had the pleasure to see just yesterday, Luciana Gas, uh, which is by one of our former guests, Javier Rivera De Bruin, and produced by um an also a former guest, uh, National Queer Theater folks. Um it's directed by Carlos Armesto and it's at the 14th Street Y. Uh unfortunately, when this podcast comes out, it will have ended on November 30th. But I'm so glad we got to go see the show together.

[7:18] Harrow: Yeah, it was what a cool space too. I've never been to 14th Street Y, and I know they do a ton of off off off stuff.

[7:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So um it was I I know I said this to you when we walked in, Holly, but I'm like, oh my gosh, like a production.

[7:31] Harrow: Yeah, like it's a set. There's costumes, there's like it was so thrilling to just see like a show that had a set.

[7:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That sounds so basic. But it was it was really cool to just walk into a new space and be like, oh, there's a lot to discover here before the show even starts.

[7:50] Harrow: You know, yeah. I think what struck me was like I'm like, oh, this is like a human body in space right next to me. Like I can hear their breathing and I can hear like their footsteps on the floor, and like you don't get that, and like Broadway productions really, or like watching TV or recorded production, like I just like all the noises that humans make. I'm like, oh, it's there, it's right here.

[8:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that felt really striking. Very close to the performers.

[8:20] Harrow: So it was like I don't know, I was aware of like how they were aware of our bodies in the space too, which is like so interesting. Um but yeah, it was so cool to see Javier's work like in person after reading some of their work and um like I feel like Javier has such like a very amazing, vivid magical realism imagination.

[8:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So to be able to like see that off the page was like thrilling.

[8:48] Harrow: Definitely.

[8:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and they have so many themes of like family and generational drama and trauma and love, and uh I just love all the themes that they're working with. Um just really like sympathetic for all of their characters.

[9:05] Harrow: Like uh, you know, I guess we can talk spoilers, but like I just found the the middle mom so sympathetic and relatable.

[9:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like she had to make really hard choices about her keeping her family or choosing her art because our industry isn't set up to support families and especially like single parents.

[9:29] Harrow: Um so she, yeah, she was put in a really tough position that like, you know, a lot of folks have to make.

[9:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um if they can pursue the arts or not. It was really just like here's the issue that this character is up against. There was no like vilifying the choice that she made. It was just like, isn't this shitty that this is what people have to decide between?

[9:50] Harrow: Yes.

[9:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I could see like, but I also can like see it from their perspective of like her daughter or her child and the mother of like, oh, this is such a selfish choice, like how could you make this and you know, yeah, you can't come back to your family.

[10:04] Harrow: Yeah, and it was a great cast. I was like very I thought everyone was like so the roles felt very lived in for such a short run production.

[10:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like I think we saw it on its second week and it was like, oh, it feels like these people have been inhabiting these characters for forever.

[10:20] Harrow: And I have to say it, I know that we were both like love Javier's uh ongoing trope of uh kind of wacky old white man coming to dinner.

[10:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It was so great in both of the plays that we've experienced by them.

[10:38] Harrow: It's like there's always some random old white dude like coming into the picture.

[10:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So it's it's so interesting to see though, and just like how out of place like sit a cis straight white man is in that world, and like good.

[10:57] Harrow: Like I like wanted him to feel so uncomfortable and you know um have to deal with his privilege and and confronting like the issues that this family was facing.

[11:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I feel like because we're seeing this as an audience for National Queer Theater.

[11:15] Harrow: I mean, I'm I am also a white cis woman, right? So I I feel like there are ways that I align with that character more, but being in an audience that is presumably mostly queer or you know, some sort of identity that is not cis white men, is you are kind of like laughing at him rather than being like, Oh, I feel uncomfortable like this guy.

[11:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You know, where I feel like if this show was in a certain audience, that character would be a reflection of the audience, but not necessarily in this this production, which I thought was really cool.

[11:51] Harrow: Yeah, Luciana Gas on Broadway, everyone's gonna be more in the George bucket.

[11:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, everyone's gonna be George.

[12:00] Harrow: I wouldn't want to see you know, it with that kind of audience, like it's so much better in a small space with you know, presumably a pretty queer audience.

[12:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It was really like unapologetic about I mean, as it should be, of like not trying to over-explain things, you know what I mean? There was a lot of like um kind of like ancestral references and different things that probably have a much more historical significance than we realized, but it wasn't like let me stop and explain this to you all.

[12:38] Harrow: You know, it's like here's here's the world that I've made, and you know, you're you're you get to witness it, so good for you kind of thing.

[12:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So it was great.

[12:48] Harrow: Yeah. The one thing I wish that like they could have done, uh, but I understand why they couldn't, was like when they were lighting um the fires and like cooking the food.

[12:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like I wanted it was such like a sensory heavy play with like all the food. They made so many meals like on stage and like lit a bunch of fires, and I just like wanted to be able to smell like all the smells.

[13:10] Harrow: Uh, because it all it it made me so hungry already, just like thinking about all the food they were making, but I was like, Oh, I want to smell it.

[13:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um it was like a cold day yesterday, so like I feel like we were sitting fire adjacent, we would have been thrilled.

[13:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[13:35] Harrow: Javier, we won't go wherever you put this in a cabin.

[13:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[13:42] Harrow: That would be very cool.

[13:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that'd be so fun. I also I loved um so much of like the Mal, the queer character, like needing to get in touch with their like inner child, like inner I don't know how you know Javi would explain it, but like having like getting in touch with themselves, and I'm like, oh, I see so much of that in myself, like allowing myself to be like silly and playful and um, you know, like your inner child. I I really love that that concept, that theme throughout the show, too.

[14:19] Harrow: And also just like the that's something I was thinking about. They gave us like that little exit survey, right? And I was like, and look also just like the the queering, oh, it's just not like a colonized view of like the grieving process of like in this play, the grandmother comes back and is in the room as they do like their grieving ritual, which is like you know, presented kind I mean George is freaked out, but besides that, it's like this is just how it's happening, you know. This is how we're gonna process this this death experience, and um yeah, that there are other ways to experience these life events that aren't necessarily what people would view as like quote unquote typical. So yeah, I appreciate that the mom like didn't go to the funeral and she's like, Oh, that's not how I I need to grieve my mother. Um yeah, great show.

[15:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, congrats to everyone involved. Uh and you saw another production that had one of our former guests. Do you want to talk about that for a minute?

[15:20] Harrow: I did, and I like didn't even realize I had one of our former guests until like the week out before I saw it. Um, but yeah, I got a chance to see Is This a Room, which again, sadly by the time this is released will have ended its Broadway run. It was playing in um rep with Dana H. Um, but yeah, it was such a like interesting. Like I love that it was on Broadway. I'm shocked that it was on Broadway, right? Because it's a documentary piece of like transcript of an FBI interview. Um, which is super instrument interesting. People should look up kind of how it was made and the origins of the actual piece. But but for our purposes, it was very exciting to see Becca Blackwell in the role of Unknown Male, which first off, incredible that that's the name of the role. Um, but yeah, Becca was I think this is Becca's Broadway debut, but I've not 100 I think so.

[16:20] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, because I remember when they were talking to us about Hurricane Diane, that was like their off Broadway debut, which also felt wild. Right. It was shocking because they've been working in the industry for how long, right? Um yeah, so what other opportunity would they have had Broadway just reopened? Um but it was so great to see them as like the comic relief of this very intense political play. You know, it was like I it was if like our listeners have seen their work before, it makes sense that they are that the person that was in that role, you know, because they're like able to like relieve tension in a very like interesting way. And um, but yeah, they also were like just very I was obsessed with their like super butch like FBI look going on.

It was so great. Um I feel like this production will probably have another like it's our this is already the third mounting of it, you know, and like the the woman whose story it depicts is not yet out of like the prison system. So I feel like it's still very relevant. Um so people might have a chance to see it again. But yeah, very exciting Broadway debut for Becca Blackwell, and um just excited that this show had that kind of platform too. It was it was great to see it in a huge Broadway theater.

[17:47] Harrow: Yeah. It's so exciting that people we've had on the show are now in shows that we can go see or like pr yeah, it's it's very exciting. So great.

[17:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I know. They're doing doing the thing they want to do. Makes me so happy.

[18:01] Harrow: Yeah.

[18:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Today's action of the app is to learn more about. So this is inspired by Holly and I's trip yesterday to the Bureau of General Services Queer Division, which is probably the best bookstore in the city. Just gonna go ahead and say that. It's the only queer bookstore in New York City. I would say Blue Stockings kind of is, but it's I think it's more of like a feminist bookstore. But yeah. Yeah. If you're really looking for like the full range of queer literature, like they got it there for you. Um, but the center also has their own advocacy platform. It's called Rise Out, the People's Platform.

[18:39] Harrow: So Rise Out is a statewide advocacy initiative in collaboration with community leaders across New York State, fighting to advance equity and inclusion for transgender and gender nonconforming people, increase access to mental health services, promote restorative justice principles, ensure LGBTQ visibility and affirmation and demand economic justice.

[19:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So there are multiple ways to be a part of Rise Out. So you can take one of the following steps today. You can contact your representatives using their form and script to demand representation for LGBTQ New Yorkers. You can sign up for the mobile advocacy network to stay up to date on ways that you can help the mission of Rise Out. Volunteer with the action team to help train others in advocacy skills and plan advocacy campaigns. And you can check out the advocacy Bootcamp. It's an online resource guide to grow and refine your skills as an activist. So you can find out more by visiting gaycenter.org/slash advocacy. And I'd say while we're on hiatus, keep looking for your own action of the ups. You know, there's a lot of things that need to be acted upon in our world right now.

[19:51] Harrow: Yeah, and share them with us so we can message it out to everyone.

[19:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I'm so excited that this week we are talking to Cecilia Gentili. She is such a badass. Uh, and I can't wait to share this interview. Cecilia Gentili is an advocate, organizer, and storyteller working at the intersections of sex work, immigrant rights, incarceration issues, and trans liberation. Originally from Argentina, Cecilia comes to the United States and survived for 10 years as an undocumented immigrant, gaining a living through sex work. She has years of experience working in direct services with organizations like the LGBT Center and Apecha Community Health Center, which led to her moving into policy work, becoming the director of policy at GMHC before creating Transgender Equity Consulting to advocate directly for better policy for trans people at the local, state, and federal level. Cecilia is also a founding member of DCrim NY, a coalition working towards the decriminalization, decarceration, and destigmatization of people in the sex trade.

[20:59] Harrow: Hi, Cecilia. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

[21:03] Cecilia Gentili: Hi. I am so happy to be here with you all.

[21:07] Harrow: And uh thank you for having me.

[21:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Of course. We are so excited to have to have you on with us. Uh, and we usually start with guests having to share their name, their pronouns, and whatever you want to share about how you identify.

[21:20] Cecilia Gentili: Yes.

[21:35] Cecilia Gentili: Cecilia Gentili. I use uh gender pronoun she and her. Um identity is complicated. I've been like, you know, trying to question myself and thinking about like what who am I in terms of identity? So, you know, I'm so many things that form like who I am. Um I think I uh I I always have like this uh you know kind of internal fight in between like what should go first, a woman or a trans person or an immigrant. So I I'd say I'm a trans feminine immigrant. Those are the the ones the parts of my identity that define me the most. I am a former sex worker. Um and uh that also makes uh makes my identity uh a very specific one. Um I am a person who um is in um recovery. I don't know if we should call it recovery.

I just haven't used uh most of the drugs that I had issues with uh for for for about 10 years. So I don't want to say that I'm in recovery because all the people who are in specific forms of recovery may question it. So but that forms who I am too. And I am a survivor of uh sexual violence, and that that forms a lot of who I am. And um, yeah, that's that's that's that's who I am.

[23:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thank you so much for sharing all of that and the many facets that make you who you are. Um and speaking of who you are, uh, we want to talk a little bit about your autobiographical work. Um, so your one-person show, the knife cuts both ways. Um, you performed it a few times pre-pandemic. Can you tell us more about the show and hopefully will there be a chance to see it or something else you're working on soon?

[23:55] Cecilia Gentili: Yes. Uh well, it was a um I think the show has been one of the most uh empowering process that I have experienced as an adult. Um I have tried to be involved in uh the artistic spheres uh always uh you know, since I was a child, I went to music school, I started doing theater, uh, but as a queer person, uh those spaces were not really available for uh for me. Um, you know, um, it was hard for me to play, like, you know, uh uh characters that were like boys when I was like a young person. Um it just didn't make sense, and like it translated and as if I was not a good actor. And in reality, it was that they were not good characters for me to play, right? So um, you know, I I and then, for example, like you know, I went to music school, and then when I started my transition, it was not an an opportunity to do both, right?

Be trans and a person in the music world. Um so I always had you know grudges a little bit with the artistic uh world and um with the academic uh world because like you know, I didn't feel like I could belong to those places, and um and artistic forms have historically followed an academic uh point of view. So the show was a great opportunity to just show my artistic self and uh and it became out of nowhere, it it it became an actual thing out of nowhere. It's not like I sat in a place and said, like, I'm gonna create a show, you know. Uh one time uh I was asked to do uh uh a story and in a storytelling show, and somebody had to explain to me what storytelling was, and I was like, oh, this thing that I do is art you know and um and I told a story I remember uh uh I told a story with Janet Mock and I was like wait I'm sharing the stage with Janet Mo.

What the fuck is going on here? Uh and uh and I told a story and that people loved it. People loved it, and from then other people started asking me to to tell other stories. Um a very good uh friend of mine.

[27:08] Cecilia Gentili: Uh sometimes they uh refer to them as my children. I have issues with motherhood, so I I don't call them my children, but they can call me their mom if they want to. I just don't call them my children. Um her name is Serena Jara, she's an amazing photographer, so she decided to do her thesis for her um for her um finishing school uh uh of her uh photography um art um degree um based on uh on some of those stories that I you tell and that she took many photographs um trying to not recreate but I guess inspire her. Uh you know, those stories to inspire the photographs, yeah. So it became this thing where it was like photographs and uh and my stories, and it was kind of like it became this thing where it was like this could be something that could look like a visual product.

So the people from um of the it's a small theater uh uh downtown, they offered me a residency to develop a show. So I started trying my stories uh in their in a small scenario that they have in a cafe concert kind of like situation. So then it became a show and Serena incorporated to pictures and uh um Gogo Graham uh did my uh put my clothes together and um another friend styled me and uh um and it became a product and uh and uh and that became the knives cut both ways and um the name comes from uh a quote from Mammy Deurist when she says the sword cut both ways.

[29:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Love that. That sounds like such a a beautiful collaborative project with people who who you know and care about. Um can you talk to us a little more about your process? You said you you didn't like sit down to write this, so was it mostly just out of stories that you've been telling?

[29:37] Cecilia Gentili: It's not written, it's not written anywhere. Uh we were trying like uh uh you know to um apply for a grant and in order to get the grant, you had to show the the manuscripts or the scripts of your show. And I'm like, we don't have one. Right? Uh huh. So we couldn't apply for it, which is fine, you know. Um but talks a lot, a lot that talks a lot about the you know, the kind of like classist uh academic uh side of the art form at times, right? Yeah, and how you know um things uh have to be in a certain way to be considered even for something like a grant. Um I'm not I'm I have no no no grudges against it, it's just it didn't happen and it's fine. Uh but the show is a series of stories that live in my head and that they're slightly uh different all the time, but they are the same.

They are the same, but sometimes they lack details or they have extra details. Um they usually do have a line and a beginning, a medium, and an end. Um, but they are all they always sound different, they always have different uh different uh um feelings that um are most likely how I feel that they telling those stories. Uh so they are uh real stories, some of the stories are um all of the stories are uh through events uh that are not articulated chronologically, some parts of the stories happen didn't happen in that chronological way, how I say I I I put them out. Some details that happen uh not in the story that I'm telling, I I incorporate them because I think it makes the story funnier. Um and uh um and some of the stories are uh a little bit embellished, and uh some of the stories are what I wanted them to be instead of what they were, and um and that's for me to decide, right?

So that's the beauty of it. I just creating something that um that maybe is not how it happened, it's how I want it to happen, and uh and that has a certain level of beauty. Um, so those stories are basically the result of um my immigration case. I had a very hard immigration case. I was um arrested and uh sent uh to Rikers Island uh from Rikers Island. I uh was picked up by um ICE and I was put in the deportation procedures, and um I think this is the only time in which I've been trans actually work in my favor because I was trans, they couldn't house me with you know how uh how they house you in in jails are very binary places, and um I was not safe in any of the ends of the spectrum of gender as they see it.

Um so they let me out with anchor bracelet and I went to treatment and I applied for an asylum, and the asylum was really hard. It was really hard on me. Um, you know, lawyers lack a lot of sensitivity at times. So you know just like telling like stories to support my immigration case, which was gonna be something good, right? And you know, your asylum would be something great. But the process was like really intense, right? Because you have to like, you know, lawyers don't want to hear like the beauty of you know your childhood. They want to hear all the trauma, you know, because they have to make a case of like why you should stay here. So it was very uh traumatic for me. So as the as a result is that I started uh you know putting in my head together some stories that made me happy about my childhood and my life in Argentina and I started telling those stories to people and people liked it and uh Serena decided to do the pictures and all the things that I told you before that's that was how that's how the process of this um show came about it was the uh it was the result of uh uh a traumatic uh um relieving traumatic events uh it was some kind of like I need to find something that is beautiful about my uh my childhood and teenager years and and and and in young adulthood uh to remember that the life was also beautiful right that you know that that that's not who I am I don't want to be reduced to this ball of trauma you know so as as a trans person like you know that was that was in my asylum but as a trans person I feel like every time I'm invited to speak in spaces people kind of like in a very morbid way people want trans people to talk about their trauma I I don't know I think somehow uh cis people sometimes feel better about themselves when they know that trans people have a hard time with things that they don't I don't know so I I think like sharing so much trauma through my asylum case and and in in general needed needed this show for me to say like it is beauty in my life it is it is fun in my life it is it is good moments it is good people in my life too and even of people who were not good to me at the time they were also great to me at some times and and those things you know they're I'm not gonna define them by any of those two ends of of of their how they behave with me or around me.

[36:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So um this show came to to remind me that I am not just my trauma and I am not just a bunch of terrible events.

[37:04] Harrow: So empowering and like flipping the script and just also the non-binary way of telling your story too is just so inspiring. So we need so many more like trends and queer joy pieces in the world. Thank you for creating that for us too.

[37:22] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah. Never enough.

[37:25] Harrow: And um, like also how cool being an audience member knowing that because it's unscripted, right? that they really are getting that like once ever experience of hearing your stories, and yeah, so thank you for doing that too. That that's so incredible.

[37:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I I think that takes a level of bravery that a lot of performers are probably just you know not ready for to be that raw.

[37:54] Cecilia Gentili: I um every time I'm about to come out, um I decide right before what my first sentence is going to be. Wow. And that kind of dictates how the show is gonna go, you know, and as I said, it has a structure in my head, but it fluctuates, and people who have seen it um different times get different vibes and different feelings uh about it. Um so yeah.

[38:27] Harrow: Yeah. I can't believe that you have capacity to hold all those stories and like uh from what I've seen, just tell them in such a hilarious and heartfelt way that it always like makes everyone um die in laughter. It's great um so talented amazing um can you tell us about uh your experience working on Pose and it's such an incredible and historic test and and creative team what was that like?

[38:43] Cecilia Gentili: I it's hard to describe the level of joy that I experienced um doing that work it's I'd say it's it's it's it's unparalleled it's it's it's it's I think it's it will be hard for me to uh top that kind of joy um you know from all the series like you know I I I I audition for it uh you know um I saw some of the people that were auditioning for the same role and I was like I'm not getting this you know it was like actually I think it was my first audition. Yeah it was my first audition the first time that auditioned for anything. Oh my gosh it was the first time that I vision for anything um it was at January and it was um how do you call those big storms snowstorms north nor'easter yeah it wasn't Nor'easter I was working and they let us they said that just go home because the storm is gonna get really bad and I was like I should go home.

I'm not gonna go to this audition. And then the audition was on the way to the train. So I was like, I'm just gonna stop here. And um and I auditioned and I was like, I'm not getting this. And you know, usually um, you know, the person who now is like my agent was like, if they don't call you back in a week, it's like you didn't get it, and they didn't call me back for like a month and a half.

[40:44] Cecilia Gentili: I was like, I definitely didn't get it. I was like, these are the people who were auditioned there, they're amazing, so they're gonna be fine, and um then uh they called me and they said that if I wanted the role I could get it, and um as a trans person, I think like it's not really unusual for me to perform to navigate life, making it look like I know what I'm doing. You know, I went to a set and I was never in a set before, you know, I was never in audition before. Nobody trained me on how to audition, nobody trained me on how to be in front of a camera, but I just went there and I act as if, you know, uh and I I did that with every job that I, you know, outside sex work, you know, when I applied for jobs, I went to places and I pretend that I knew what I was doing, you know, and and and and that's what I did with Pose. I just went there and like I never been in front of a camera before.

[41:59] Harrow: Wow, so you can't tell.

[42:05] Cecilia Gentili: It was such a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful um moment. The three seasons were like pure joy, but what I will remember the most and will leaves in my mind is um when we finish uh um butterfly cocoon, that is when I uh take care of the body. Um it was like three in the morning, we started working at 7 a.m. uh we were like very tired.

[42:40] Harrow: Yeah.

[42:43] Cecilia Gentili: Um Dominique had a terrible cold or flu or something. We were just exhausted. Um and when they rapped Janet Mock came to us and she said that we just did an episode in a TV show played by three trans women of color, written by a trans woman and directed by a black trans woman.

[43:24] Harrow: And it kind of like sink, it was like oh fuck, like this is like this I'm being part of something that is incredible.

[43:35] Cecilia Gentili: So I will always remember that moment when she said that I was like, it's worth it to spend like this like incredible amount of hours, uh, you know, with this wig and this fucking nails and all of that. So it was it was so empowering, it was beautiful. I I loved I loved every moment of it and what was it like for you when the show gained such like a wide audience even beyond the queer community what do you hope that folks queer folks and non-queer folks take away from the show I think it was very important for me and let me see how it doesn't come across as a trashing I think I think everybody in the show was uh a folks in the younger side and uh you know um uh more um skinny side more model esque uh side and um uh younger uh um um more in the uh um acceptable idea or beauty side and I love that my character was none of that and it was not an effort to make her look like beautiful or young or skinny or like you know she was who she was and uh and she was also a person who you know whose you know the things that she did could be questioned right and and and that's fine and she she was you know a a woman trying to make it, you know, a woman trying to make it and doing whatever she had to do to to survive in life, which it's says so much about my my own experience.

[45:43] Cecilia Gentili: I feel like you know, uh it is like you know, as I said before, like people want to hear the pain of our lives, or people want to have uh like an elevated uh idea of trans people, and you know, sometimes we can be as full of shit as anybody else, you know. I love I think that the you know all the characters were so real, but I think that my character was like um was so close to I knew that person, you know. I I I knew Miss Orlando. Uh I I I hung out with Miss Orlando before, you know.

[46:25] Harrow: So yeah, it was it was beautiful.

[46:28] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, thank you for sharing those stories. It's uh I got goosebumps. Um yeah, uh and I remember see this was like way pre-pandemic several years ago. I I saw you portray uh Sylvia Rivera and OEarth, and you know, as one of the current leaders of the LGBTQ community, like what do you hope to give future generations like Sylvia gave us?

[46:54] Cecilia Gentili: I would not uh dare to put myself anywhere close to uh the level of uh iconic um status that Sylvia has. So I think you know, from from what my identity brings to the conversation is an extra level of intersectionality that is the fact of like me being a person who was undocumented in this country for 10 years and uh and a person who was able to navigate uh the immigration system of this country with all its terror its its terribleness uh uh and survive it. Uh so I think what I want to translate and maybe help create a sense of awareness is about the beauty of the undocumented community, the resilience of the undocumented community, um the importance of sharing our experiences as people who were undocum who are or or were or have a history of being undocumented in this country uh and all its intersections uh with life.

[48:40] Cecilia Gentili: So uh that's what I what I what I want to I guess offer uh as uh as someone who is somehow involved in activism.

[48:56] Harrow: It's a perfect segue into our next question.

[48:59] Harrow: And you're so involved with your activism, but also in creating your art. How do you balance that and how do the two inform each other?

[49:09] Cecilia Gentili: Um I think that everything that I do that is that that that has like an uh artistic um part or an artistic side um is an act of revolution right um uh uh just the fact that you know it's uh a trans woman with my history is on TV a trans woman with my history is in a stage you know uh that someone you know writes a character for me you know um it's it's it's it's a revolutionary act so uh you know when I do work uh as an actress or as a storyteller um I think on its own you know it's an act of uh of revolution and um I I don't I don't make efforts to add anything to it I just let it be as as it is so yeah oh that's beautiful thank you um and you started the trans equity consulting uh organization a couple years ago and can you tell us more about what kind of work you're doing there?

[49:09] Cecilia Gentili: Yes um well I was um it's a complicated um narrative because you know I owe so much to nonprofits you know um my career became you know i started on an internship at the lgbt center i went to work at i chess a peer navigator i became the coordinator of their clinic i moved to policy at gmac so you know i grew so much in the nonprofit um world that uh you know i i pretty much am where i am because of you know they they gave me an opportunity at the same time it's a little bit of resentment to towards nonprofits because you know they're very specific spaces and um you know um and i just i'm a resentful person I guess resentment comes naturally to me as someone who also who currently works in a nonprofit I totally understand the resentment so I'm glad I'm glad so you know I was like I want to create a space I want to create the perfect space where I want to work and that was not it didn't leave anywhere in a nonprofit or in a corporation or any or definitely not in government so I wanted to create a space where I'd be happy working and I had to create it myself and that's why I started this company, and um now we are 11 people working together, and um I am the leader, um you know um I always say that they don't work for me, they work with me.

[52:49] Cecilia Gentili: Um but I also am the leader, you know, I lead this company and uh we work with uh we try to help uh um entities to be as beautiful and empowering as we are. Uh so we work with government, we work with nonprofits, we work with um corporations, uh trying to create um a sense of gender equity uh that is intersectional and is comprehensive of uh gender identity. Uh um, you know, I think like you know, most of spaces every time you think about like uh gender equity, you know, it what comes to mind is this gender woman, right?

[53:39] Cecilia Gentili: Um and I think like you know, it is important to elevate uh the idea of gender equity to trans people and people of different experience in terms of gender identity. So that's what we do, and um we are making a living with that, and that's really cool.

[54:00] Harrow: Yeah, that's awesome.

[54:01] Harrow: Very cool.

[54:02] Cecilia Gentili: I was just gonna say congratulations for getting out of the nonprofit industrial complex.

[54:08] Cecilia Gentili: I work with many non-profits now, so you know non-profits are my clients now, so we are I think that's really cool because like you know, we I'm also trying to help nonprofits not be as toxic as toxic as they be, you know.

[54:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that's awesome.

[54:25] Harrow: And it's on your terms too, which is great.

[54:28] Cecilia Gentili: So have you worked with any theaters or arts organizations? Um, I am working now with um a marching band, yes, and we are going to change that name.

[54:28] Harrow: Oh yes, that's so much fun.

[54:28] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, oh very cool. Do you what do you think the theater community could take from the work that you do?

[54:55] Cecilia Gentili: I think you know the theater community is really changing. I think it's taking more time than I wish they would be taking, but I do see an opening to different experiences. So you know, I think it is going where it has to go. I still think that it is um, you know, um it is a lot of uh class and uh academic um history in the theater community that is uh not beneficial, let's put it that way. It's not beneficial to uh an artist who doesn't have that kind of upbringing, right? So uh I think that it is much more space for the theater community to play with and investigate ways of creating um a product that are beyond uh academic conceptions. Yeah, uh thinking, uh yeah theater is such a product. It is such a like a commercial thing even in the non-commercial spaces.

[55:19] Harrow: Yeah.

[55:19] Cecilia Gentili: And then do you have any advice for younger folks or not so young folks who are trying to do more advocacy and activism work to get out there and do more?

[55:19] Cecilia Gentili: Oh, I think just do it, you know. If you have an opportunity to, I think it's such a beautiful opportunity. You know, I grew up in a dictatorship, you know. I know how it feels not to have a voice. I think that folks that did not experience that kind of oppression don't fully understand the importance of having a voice, right? And so, you know, in a dictatorship, you know, the two targets of every oppressive system are artists and queer people, right? So those are, you know, the most important targets of any oppressive system, and that says a lot, right? So for people who are queer and they're activists and they're all in, or they're queer and they are artists, we hold so much power in our narratives, right?

That it creates a wonderful opportunity to shape our present and the future. So, um, I invite everybody to investigate how they can, you know, you don't have to be an official activist or an official artist to create the things that you can in order to shape, you know, society. You know, I, in my country, you know, I grew up learning, you know, of the resiliency that comes from the artistic form, you know, and, you know, songs that, you know, we didn't know had a meaning that was so much deeper than the words of the song, you know, when you, when you, you know, that having to manipulate art to come across with a message is such a beautiful process.

[59:40] Harrow: Thank you for that advice, and that's, yeah, just sharing your story can be powerful, so thank you for that. Um, moving on to the next section that we call queering the canon, so we take stories that we know and imagine how they would be in a queer way. So is there a play or a musical that you would like to see performed or um reimagined with trans actors or trans characters?

[59:40] Cecilia Gentili: Um, it is a play that is very known and popular in the Spanish, um, Hispanic Latinx, I guess not his, I think it's not Latinx, it's Hispanic community called La Casa de Bernarda Alba, which is a story of a mother with many, many daughters. Um, and I dream with doing La Casa de Bernarda Alba with all trans actresses.

[59:40] Harrow: Oh, that sounds great.

[59:40] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, you gotta do it.

[59:40] Harrow: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I also think that, you know, so many of the characters that we see in theater or in TV, um, don't need to be cis.

[59:40] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, it's not a necessity for like ninety-eight percent of the characters that we see in theater on TV do not need to be cis.

[1:01:19] Harrow: They are just cis because, you know.

[1:01:22] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah.

[1:01:29] Cecilia Gentili: Because, you know, I, uh, you know, my friend, my friend Jess Barber Galo wrote um a character for one of his plays that was for me, and you know, uh, the character was a nurse. It was a nurse, it was not mentioned if she was trans or cis or like, you know, it was a nurse that was navigating a situation as a nurse. The meat of the character was being a nurse, and it, you know, it was like such a wonderful opportunity to just say like, you know, I'm a person who's acting, and it's, you know, putting my experiences into a character who is a nurse, but it's not conceived to be a trans person, you know, it's conceived to be a nurse.

[1:02:23] Harrow: That's such a beautiful opportunity.

[1:02:27] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, yeah, definitely, because there are trans people who are nurses too.

[1:02:32] Harrow: Correct.

[1:02:35] Cecilia Gentili: Uh, and then outside of theater, um, this is our queer culture rec. Uh, do you have like a queer culture indulgence? It's like a book or a movie or an event, something like that.

[1:02:46] Cecilia Gentili: I love, I can watch um Dangerously Asian like all day. And I think that movie is so fucking queer. Uh, playing clothes coming down of that carriage with that hat and looking up. It's so fucking queer.

[1:03:10] Cecilia Gentili: Um, I can watch and I, I am, um, I have such a crush on uh John Malkovich, um, young John Malkovich, whole John Malkovich. I have a crush on John Malkovich.

[1:03:29] Harrow: I haven't seen that in a long time.

[1:03:30] Cecilia Gentili: I’ll have to revisit when she comes out the carriage and you see her hat and then you know you see her face changing from like, you know, hating everything to being totally fake, and she's like my favorite scene in life.

[1:03:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh no, yeah, we're gonna rewatch it, Holly, and we'll think of you, Cecilia, during the hat moment.

[1:04:02] Cecilia Gentili: That's so great.

[1:04:03] Harrow: Um, and then almost to the end here, one of our last sections is uh queer gives. So we like to shout out a person, a mutual aid fund, an organization. Um, anyone who you think is doing great work in the queer community, it could be your own organization that you would like our listeners to learn more about and support.

[1:04:25] Cecilia Gentili: I, uh, um, absolutely in all of the work that um my sister Tony Michelle Williams is doing in Atlanta. Uh, her organization is called um Solutions Not Punishment, and they are badass.

[1:04:53] Cecilia Gentili: Uh, and also folks of uh Brave Space Alliance in Chicago are amazing too. Uh, St. James Infirmary in San Francisco, amazing work, and they do to um people like Colin Laura here in the city. You know, yeah.

[1:05:18] Harrow: So it's so, so cool to be able to have a clinic for sex workers, you know.

[1:05:26] Cecilia Gentili: So yeah, I can keep going and going and going. I'm gonna stop.

[1:05:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thank you for that. That's great.

[1:05:31] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah.

[1:05:32] Harrow: Uh, and finally, how can folks follow you online?

[1:05:36] Cecilia Gentili: Uh, my, um, my business is Transgender Equity Consulting, and you can find the Transequity Consulting.com. Um, and um in uh social media, I am Cecilia Gentili in Facebook, Cecilia Gentil72 in Instagram and Cecilia Gentili in Twitter.

[1:06:01] Cecilia Gentili: And I do not have TikTok because I refuse to make an effort to be young and relevant.

[1:06:13] Harrow: That's gonna be my line when people are like, why aren't you on TikTok?

[1:06:20] Cecilia Gentili: That's great.

[1:06:23] Harrow: Well, thank you so much for having spending time with us today. It was such an honor to speak with you. Um, and thank you for all the work that you're doing.

[1:06:31] Cecilia Gentili: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been so much fun, and um, I appreciate you all uh putting the voices of uh people like me out there. So thank you for doing this work, and um it was uh so much fun to hang out with both of you.

[1:06:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thank you for listening to our last episode of season two. We will be on hiatus until spring twenty twenty two, but our DMs are open. Keep us up to date on shows to see, actions to help uplift our community, and your queer culture recs. See you soon, queers.

[1:07:08] Harrow: Happy holidays.

[1:07:20] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Today's action of the ep is to learn more about, well, this was inspired by Holly and I's trip to the center's bookstore yesterday. The um, oh gosh, Bureau of General Services Queer Studies Services.