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[0:07] Meghan: Hey everyone, welcome to Thesis on Joan.

[0:10] Holy Camp: I'm Meghan, she/her.

[0:12] Harrow: I'm Holly, they/them.

[0:14] Meghan: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ+ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective. Join fanqueers and theater professionals, me and Holly, as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folk from Brooklyn cabaret performers to people backstage and on Broadway.

[0:34] Harrow: For many queers, theater has been an escape. This podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:47] Meghan: Hey Holly, how's it going? I know we've been in past episodes, we've talked about kind of our excitement for theater to come back, and now that's like actually happening, like shows have announced, tickets are on sale.

[0:59] Harrow: Yeah, I was just wondering like how you're feeling about it.

[1:02] Meghan: I'll share that like me personally, I've kind of been I haven't bought any theater tickets yet, because I have been kind of like waiting for the theater revolution to happen.

[1:12] Harrow: And I like started seeing some buzz about boycott Broadway, maybe.

[1:19] Meghan: And then I was like, oh crap, I'm not gonna buy any tickets because I like want to support this. And then I haven't really seen anything like that since then.

[1:28] Harrow: Totally.

[1:29] Meghan: Yeah, I don't know. How are you feeling?

[1:31] Harrow: Yeah, I felt like we both knew this was gonna happen as soon as like there was real things to sell. They're gonna be like, oh, we're too busy to work on all the things that we talked about.

[1:42] Meghan: Like, oh, I'm so sorry, tickets are on sale, you know, and I that's kind of the sense that I'm getting. It's like all the excitement around the like reopening dates is kind of it's not overshadowing the other stuff because people are still being vocal, but like they're just kind of trucking along like there's nothing to fix and we're just all gonna be happy that shows are starting again.

[2:05] Harrow: And I'm also like not convinced that anything's selling very well, you know, like a lot of the shows are opening in September, which is historically like the worst month for Broadway shows.

[2:16] Meghan: And like just because there's a pandemic that's like winding down doesn't mean that there still aren't a bunch of Jewish holidays and school starting.

[2:25] Harrow: So it's I feel like um not only are there they trying to like they who is they like Broadway shows trying to like switch all the excitement to the reopening, but they're also gonna start panicking and definitely not pay attention to any of the work that needs to be done because they're not gonna be selling well either.

[2:44] Meghan: But that's just my hypothesis.

[2:46] Harrow: Oof.

[2:47] Meghan: Yeah, no, I think you're you're very right.

[2:49] Harrow: Yeah, I haven't got any tickets either.

[2:51] Meghan: I I'm I'm gonna like vulture it, I think, and wait for the fall and I also don't know like personally, especially with all the new mask regulations that are coming out.

[3:00] Harrow: Like I don't really know where my comfort level is gonna be that far out.

[3:04] Meghan: Or like deregulations.

[3:06] Harrow: Yeah, deregulation. Yeah, CDC's like, do whatever you want.

[3:11] Meghan: Yeah.

[3:12] Harrow: I think my comfort level is gonna be one or two days out. As actually it usually was for I feel like I rarely bought a ticket more than like three weeks in advance.

[3:20] Meghan: So yeah.

[3:22] Harrow: And I was looking at like theater tickets and they felt really expensive to me.

[3:27] Meghan: I feel they're probably like the same amount as what they were before.

[3:31] Harrow: I don't remember, but yeah, I got most of my tickets through like lotteries or um today ticks via TDF.

[3:38] Meghan: Yeah.

[3:38] Harrow: TDF, yeah. So like paying full price for a ticket right now feels like a lot.

[3:44] Meghan: Especially with all of the other financial hardships that like this year has brought for so many people.

[3:50] Harrow: You know, it's and it included I mean that's why the tickets are so high, right? Because it's been hard for Broadway too.

[3:56] Meghan: But oh man, I haven't read a box office report in a while.

[4:01] Harrow: Like that's gonna be some like get your popcorn in September and sit down with those numbers.

[4:07] Meghan: Like But yeah, I do feel a little disappointed that it's like we're back to normal, everyone's really excited about theater coming back, which I am too, but I'm also like all these demands have been made, like the problematic aspects of we see white American theater, like there's they have a huge list of things that are actionable items that theaters could do, and then who's holding them accountable?

[4:31] Harrow: Like we make these demands, but then if they don't do them, what are the consequences?

[4:36] Meghan: There don't seem to be very many right now.

[4:38] Harrow: So yeah, just wondering like is it gonna take a strike or you know, a boycott? Like, what is it gonna be?

[4:44] Meghan: Yeah, it was like slightly disheartening to see how all the announcements this week of like actors returning to shows.

[4:52] Harrow: I know that's bad to say, but like especially the shows that were already having some issues.

[4:59] Meghan: I'm just thinking of um like Moulin Rouge after Karen Oliva left, and then it's like every other original cast member's back, you know, and yeah, like they need work too, but it doesn't seem to be a lot of solidarity.

[5:11] Harrow: Yeah, no, I totally agree.

[5:13] Meghan: Like was that in vain? Like it was such a bold move, but what does it do if only if only one or two people do that?

[5:20] Harrow: Right.

[5:21] Meghan: Yeah.

[5:21] Harrow: Everyone's been out of work for so long. I think it's making people a little more compliant than they would have been.

[5:28] Meghan: Yeah, and I feel like I see some resistance from theater folk being like, well, I can't push back too hard because I really need a job.

[5:38] Harrow: Right.

[5:38] Meghan: And yes, obviously like you need a job, you need your livelihood, but also you have the privilege to go back to that job, and a lot of folks don't.

[5:49] Harrow: Right.

[5:49] Meghan: Because of the access you have.

[5:51] Harrow: Very true.

[5:52] Meghan: Right.

[5:52] Harrow: And so it's just the problem's gonna perpetuate.

[5:55] Meghan: And that, you know, I say that from like a job with a nonprofit theater organization who didn't lose my job, you know, during the pandemic.

[6:03] Harrow: So it's easy for me to be like, yeah, everyone quit your job and fuck theater.

[6:09] Meghan: Yeah.

[6:09] Harrow: It just yeah, it would be sad if all of the work that so many people have put in over this past year just kind of gets washed away in this commercialism wave.

[6:18] Meghan: Yeah, and I'm trying to think of like the wins. We did get several people, people of color, black folks hired into relative positions of power within some theater companies.

[6:29] Harrow: Theaters were pressured to make anti-racism plans.

[6:34] Meghan: Who knows how that's gonna go and if it will continue.

[6:37] Harrow: Like I saw that Roundabout announced they have an anti-racism committee, and I'm super curious about what that's gonna be.

[6:45] Meghan: Uh and what they're gonna be able to do.

[6:47] Harrow: Like, Todd Hames, are you stepping down?

[6:49] Meghan: Julia, are you stepping down?

[6:51] Harrow: Um, what BIPOC person are you gonna start paying $500,000 a year to work for you?

[6:57] Meghan: Very curious.

[6:58] Harrow: Yeah, I I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

[7:00] Meghan: Yeah.

[7:01] Harrow: And also, um, like Dion was saying in our discussion, I think one of the wins of the past year is because it the bar was like lowered for how difficult it is to produce.

[7:13] Meghan: Like a lot more people's work got out there that wouldn't have normally had any platform, but because the industry was completely silent, you know, and everything was living online.

[7:23] Harrow: So I think personally I saw a lot of work from creators I probably wouldn't have had a chance to see because their work wouldn't got the money to do like a reading, but they could put together a Zoom situation, you know.

[7:34] Meghan: Yeah, but I yeah, I'm just curious if that will translate to like the Broadway stage and the big money now that we're back.

[7:41] Harrow: Yeah, and I hope out of that, a lot of people I know I definitely have have found like BIPOC writers and creators that I didn't know about before, and now I want to see everything that they do for the rest of their career.

[7:53] Meghan: You know, so I'm hoping that it's at least cultivated fan bases for these great creators.

[7:58] Harrow: Um, you know, they can show that there are people who want to see their work, you know, and that's I don't know how that translates to the Broadway stage, but I hope it means more support for them in whatever they end up doing next.

[8:12] Meghan: And even like the large off-Broadway theaters and the small off-Broadway theaters, I hope it changes how they are producing as well.

[8:19] Harrow: Mm-hmm.

[8:19] Meghan: So for this episode, the show we listened to was a fun divergence into Audible Theater.

[8:26] Harrow: We listened to Chonburi International Hotel and Butterfly Club that's written and featuring Shakina Nayfack and directed by Laura Savia.

[8:34] Meghan: Uh and it was produced in collaboration with the Williamstown Theater Festival.

[8:38] Harrow: In this world premiere play, a vibrant international group of transgender women band together at a hotel in Thailand to confront the challenges and joys of gender confirmation surgery.

[8:48] Meghan: Despite the group's warm welcome, Kina prepares for her life-altering operation alone.

[8:53] Harrow: But a caring nurse, a wise couple, and a karaoke-loving bellhop may be exactly who she needs to ignite her truest sense of self.

[9:00] Meghan: Yeah, this was my first like I feel like we've been doing a lot of digital theater, but not like a proper radio play.

[9:08] Harrow: And this is like took me back to this is like the lightest thing ever, but like Prairie Home Companion, you know, like situation on NPR.

[9:16] Meghan: But I I forgot how much I I love like this unique form of storytelling.

[9:23] Harrow: Um and just from the top, like the first couple minutes, the sound design was like incredible.

[9:30] Meghan: Like you could hear the footsteps and like the bells in the lobby and the elevator.

[9:34] Harrow: I was like, this is amazing.

[9:36] Meghan: And in the um talk back that follows the play, uh, they actually shout out Joanna Fang, who is the sound designer foley artist.

[9:47] Harrow: So I want to know more, like if they did the Foley like live as it was being recorded.

[9:53] Meghan: I have so many questions about the sound design, but I I think it's worth a listen, like just out the gate for like the kind of soundscape that it makes for you to envision things.

[10:03] Harrow: I think it definitely helped me keep the world like have a context for what I was hearing, if that makes sense.

[10:09] Meghan: Yeah, no, the sound design was incredible.

[10:11] Harrow: I'm definitely a visual learner and audible things like podcasts, ironically, and audiobooks are really hard for me.

[10:21] Meghan: It's hard for me to keep my attention and I I followed the story really well with this, and I was super invested throughout, but it was, I think, difficult for me to keep a lot of the characters straight throughout.

[10:34] Harrow: I I agree.

[10:35] Meghan: I almost had like a mini panic attack about talking about this show at the beginning of listening to it because I was like, I I cannot keep any of these people in line.

[10:44] Harrow: And I have to honestly admit by the end I still don't really know who all care.

[10:49] Meghan: Like I know a couple were but some of the like more ancillary people like I couldn't tell you facts about them and uh I think if it if we were able to see it on stage that would be very different especially with like the amazing unique identities that all these characters have.

[11:05] Harrow: I also like it's it's interesting to experience a piece of art about trans individuals where you don't actually get to see the trans individuals and I feel like that I don't know it's a little bit of a I feel like so much of the impact of uplifting and supporting trans artists is like getting the chance to normalize seeing trans artists at work.

[11:31] Meghan: You know so I I feel like with the audio element it was a little something was missing but you know it was still I don't think it like did a disservice to the play.

[11:40] Harrow: I just wish I could have seen these people perform these roles.

[11:43] Meghan: Definitely and it helped at least for me that I was familiar with many of the actors so once I realized who was in it I could picture folks better because I was like oh right I know who what Shakina looks like I know what Kate Bornstein looks like.

[11:58] Harrow: Yeah.

[11:58] Meghan: Annie Golden that was such a delight what an iconic voice in terms of the play is such a beautiful ensemble piece and you know like what we talked about with Kit and Melissa like when do you ever get an ensemble of trans femmes you know, never.

[12:18] Harrow: Right.

[12:18] Meghan: And like getting to see that like mothering and like sisterhood happening in the group was just really cool to experience too.

[12:26] Harrow: Yeah.

[12:26] Meghan: And such a diverse group.

[12:28] Harrow: Like even internationally was so fascinating to hear all the different accents and yeah, where people were coming from.

[12:35] Meghan: And this is all based, you know, on Shakina's experience of going to Thailand and actually going through this whole process.

[12:41] Harrow: The main uh protagonist character is named Kina, who we assume is a stand-in for Shakina and she plays that role.

[12:49] Meghan: I think one of my favorite moments is when one of the women yell gives Kina a blonde wig to put on, because Kina is bald throughout the show, and and the other women have very strong reactions to this.

[13:02] Harrow: Because when I picture Shakina in my mind, it's always the bald look or the very blonde wig.

[13:08] Meghan: And I'm like, oh, that's such like an iconic look for her.

[13:10] Harrow: And now we get the backstory of where that came from.

[13:13] Meghan: Yeah, these these characters felt really even though I couldn't keep them all straight, they felt very lived in, like the details about them.

[13:21] Meghan: Like I wouldn't be surprised if they were all really specific people that Shekina encountered.

[13:26] Harrow: Sounds like this cast has been developing it with Shakina.

[13:30] Meghan: Yeah, I the only thing I like have a note on is I kind of wanted more of a look into the world of uh the folks who were working at the hotel and helping them.

[13:41] Harrow: Um you get like a moment, but it almost feels more like a well, we know we should do this, so like here's what they're going through.

[13:48] Meghan: You know, but they don't feel as real as the other they don't feel as like full as the other characters, I guess.

[13:55] Harrow: You kind of have like one check-in with them and then that's it.

[13:58] Meghan: But at the same time, if this is from Shakina's experience, like most of her time was with this group of women who are going through the same process as her.

[14:07] Harrow: No, I agree.

[14:08] Meghan: And it was interesting that they talk about how a coup is happening with their government.

[14:15] Harrow: And that feels like such a huge thing.

[14:19] Meghan: Uh, especially since we just went through a process where there was like a potential coup and how destabilizing that is.

[14:27] Harrow: And I was trying to look up some history about that, and I couldn't figure out which coup um uh it was referencing, um, because there have been very many in the last century.

[14:39] Meghan: So yeah, I was super curious about how that affects the two characters that we we get to meet in this play, and what does the not the tourism, but like the economic impacts of having these folks come and giving their money to Thailand's economic medical process.

[15:01] Harrow: Medical tourism, yeah.

[15:02] Meghan: Yeah, I was just very curious about that.

[15:03] Harrow: But it also feels like another play.

[15:06] Meghan: And then Thailand kind of becomes like a metaphor for for the women too, because Thailand is also kind of going through its own like metamorphosis by the end of the play, where they mention that it has a new constitution and they're like, oh, it's a new day.

[15:20] Harrow: Hopefully it's a better one.

[15:23] Meghan: Right.

[15:24] Harrow: And I think that was part of it too, is like that this backdrop, this coup that's happening is like a set dressing metaphor when I'm like, this is actually these people's lives who can't leave, you know.

[15:36] Meghan: So like it's nice that it plays into the narrative of rebirth, but at the same time, like what is the actual experience of the people who have to continue to live in this country and can't just leave when their surgery is done, you know.

[15:50] Harrow: Yeah.

[15:50] Meghan: And I understand that that's like not Shekina's experience.

[15:54] Harrow: She's not the expert in that uh lived experience either, so it doesn't really make sense for the play to be about that.

[16:00] Meghan: Right.

[16:00] Harrow: There's like a an interview video on the Audible site for this where she talks about how sh this is kind of like an homage to the old hotel plays.

[16:09] Meghan: Yeah.

[16:10] Harrow: Oh, that's awesome.

[16:11] Meghan: I love that.

[16:13] Harrow: Yeah, but it does feel like that with like lots of doors, people like coming and going.

[16:18] Meghan: Yeah.

[16:18] Harrow: What was that wacky play that Roundabout did with like Annalie Ashford in it where it was like a family running around a house?

[16:24] Meghan: Oh, you can't take it with you?

[16:26] Harrow: Yeah, you can't take it with you.

[16:28] Meghan: It had like that very like wacky Broadway comedy, almost Neil Simon vibe to it at parts.

[16:36] Harrow: Which is so cool to put like these characters in that world.

[16:40] Meghan: I also just love Shekina's voice.

[16:42] Harrow: Like whoa boy, like just talk all day and I'll listen.

[16:46] Meghan: It's like a perfect audio voice.

[16:49] Harrow: So good.

[16:49] Meghan: Yeah, it was great to have her as the new person showing up and then getting kind of the orientation with her and then seeing her like full circle by the end, being the new kind of dead mother and introducing the new person.

[17:03] Harrow: Yeah, it like wrapped up kind of like really nicely in a way that it is like a classic comedy type play.

[17:10] Meghan: It's not completely comedy, but it's an interesting mix of comedy and drama, I would say.

[17:31] Harrow: But it didn't feel like it felt like they were in charge of that story and what they were sharing and what they weren't sharing.

[17:40] Meghan: And like some of them felt comfortable enough to be like, hey, look at my new vagina.

[17:44] Harrow: And some of them right now weren't.

[17:46] Meghan: Yeah.

[17:47] Harrow: The way that like when the characters step aside was was used very like tactfully for for that I feel like.

[17:53] Meghan: I like also that uh like the actual like anatomical like talk was right at the top of the play.

[17:59] Harrow: Shakina's like, let's get this over with like I know that you guys are gonna like be thinking about this if we don't get this out of the way.

[18:05] Meghan: You know what I mean?

[18:06] Harrow: I was like, yeah, you're you're answering the questions that many people come to work of trans artists having and it was kind of like here's this get it out of the way.

[18:15] Meghan: Okay now focus on the story.

[18:16] Harrow: It was all things that you could find out through a Google search, right?

[18:20] Meghan: It's not like you know hidden sacred secrets.

[18:24] Harrow: Right.

[18:25] Meghan: And and then like if people are coming for that because they have this invasive curiosity, they instead get such a beautiful introduction to all these different people who are are not a monolith and have very different beliefs.

[18:39] Harrow: They're from different countries or from different races and religions and all those things affect their identity and how they believe and or what they believe in and live their lives.

[18:49] Meghan: I love the scene where you kind of hear them all arguing with each other about different issues.

[18:55] Harrow: Yeah.

[18:56] Meghan: It showed that like they have different opinions there's still there's division.

[19:01] Harrow: Yeah and there's still stuff that each of them has to work on and figure out where they are kind of in the side of oppression and privilege with different issues as well.

[19:11] Meghan: Right.

[19:12] Harrow: And they're like as probably someone on the outside looking in would say like their journey on their gender confirmation surgery doesn't necessarily match up to their maturity journey into becoming like an adult woman, right?

[19:24] Meghan: Like it didn't necessarily like just because you were further along in your process didn't mean that you were like the most mature like mother figure in the room, too.

[19:33] Harrow: Oh, something um in the the video trailer on the Audible site too is when uh she's talking to Kate Bornstein uh and saying, you know, what was this like for you reading this play?

[19:44] Meghan: You've been doing this work for decades now.

[19:47] Harrow: And Kate says, you know, when I wrote theater, I always had to write a one-person show because I was the only one.

[19:55] Meghan: And so to see this huge ensemble of trans women is just overwhelming.

[20:01] Harrow: I just got chills from that.

[20:02] Meghan: That's yeah.

[20:03] Harrow: But yeah, if you're if you're into audio plays, I would recommend listen.

[20:07] Meghan: Oh, yeah, it's so fun.

[20:09] Harrow: And it's available through Audible.

[20:11] Meghan: I think it was eight dollars, seven dollars.

[20:14] Harrow: Or if you haven't done your trial, just do your trial and you can listen for free.

[20:18] Meghan: Yeah, and more plays by Shakina Nayfack.

[20:21] Harrow: Yeah, great.

[20:21] Meghan: Starring Shakina Nayfack.

[20:23] Harrow: Right, as a rule.

[20:25] Meghan: For this action of the app, we're encouraging everyone to get ready for the primary election that's coming up for New York City.

[20:31] Harrow: Yeah, if you're like me and you've been getting unlimited voter mailings in your mailbox, it's time to start paying attention to them.

[20:37] Meghan: I'm doing this for myself as well because I need to like buckle down and and figure it all out.

[20:41] Harrow: So the upcoming New York City voting dates are Saturday, June 12th.

[20:46] Meghan: That's when early voting begins.

[20:48] Harrow: Tuesday, June 15th.

[20:49] Meghan: That's when absentee ballots must be requested by Tuesday, June 22nd.

[20:55] Harrow: That is the primary election.

[20:57] Meghan: And then just a reminder, it's always good to know this year, November 2nd is the general election.

[21:02] Harrow: So if you're not sure if you're registered to vote, you can visit the NYC registered voter search.

[21:07] Meghan: We'll have a link to that in the bio, and we'll also have a link where you can find your poll site and view a sample ballot for the Democratic primary election so you can be super prepared once June 22nd rolls around.

[21:21] Harrow: You know, the mayoral election is getting a lot of attention right now, but there are also elections for many city council members, the district attorneys, um, city comptroller and borough presidents and more.

[21:33] Meghan: So please make sure to do your research on all of those races.

[21:37] Harrow: They all have a huge impact on how the city is run from you know policing to actual theater uh in our city.

[21:44] Meghan: There's also ranked choice voting in New York City now.

[21:47] Harrow: This is a new process we've haven't experienced before.

[21:50] Meghan: So you can now vote up to five candidates for each race and you rank them from one to five from your top choice as one down to your fifth as your last one.

[22:01] Harrow: There is strategy behind how you use your ranked choice voting.

[22:05] Meghan: So if you are really uh passionate about your top three people, if your top three people are kind of underdogs and you don't think they're gonna win, maybe you throw a vote, your fifth vote to someone who has a really good chance of winning who you hate less than the other person.

[22:25] Harrow: The world we live in.

[22:26] Meghan: You know, you decide lesser of two evils, but read more about strategy behind ranked choice voting.

[22:33] Harrow: Uh, it is different this year.

[22:35] Meghan: We're also putting a couple of voter guides in the notes.

[22:38] Harrow: Um, Gothamist has one, and then shout out to Theater in Asylum.

[22:42] Meghan: They have some really cool um educational theatrical events.

[22:46] Harrow: So if you learn really well through theater, they're someone cool to check out.

[22:50] Meghan: They do like analysis of debates.

[22:52] Harrow: Um, they have a voter guide website that's really thorough as well.

[22:56] Meghan: Uh, and they can really like break down candidates and issues in an accessible way, which is and also fun because it's theater.

[23:02] Harrow: So check those out, do your homework, get ready for the election.

[23:05] Meghan: It's a big one.

[23:07] Harrow: All right.

[23:08] Meghan: Today we are so excited to be sitting down with Drew Gregory.

[23:11] Harrow: Drew Gregory is a filmmaker, theater maker, and writer.

[23:14] Meghan: She is currently staffed at Autostraddle, where she writes about queer representation in media with a focus on the history of lesbian cinema.

[23:21] Harrow: Her theater credits include directing The Visitation, an immersive show at the historic Wycloff House produced by Witness.

[23:28] Meghan: Her latest film was the short The First Time, a pandemic rom com shot on Zoom.

[23:33] Harrow: She's currently working on a million projects, mostly about trans lesbians.

[23:38] Meghan: Well, Drew, welcome to the podcast.

[23:40] Harrow: We are so excited to have you.

[23:42] Meghan: Thanks for being here.

[23:43] Drew Gregory: Thanks for having me.

[23:44] Harrow: Yeah, we're both huge fans of your writing.

[23:46] Meghan: So it's uh very exciting for us to have you here.

[23:49] Harrow: Um we always start out with guests sharing their names, pronouns, and whatever you want to share with how you identify.

[23:57] Drew Gregory: Yeah, sure. Um, my name is Drew Gregory. My pronouns are she and her. I identify as a trans woman, I identify as a lesbian, um, and then uh in other categories, identify as a writer and a filmmaker and a theater maker.

[24:14] Harrow: Amazing.

[24:14] Meghan: And as you just mentioned, your creativity covers so many different realms. You're a filmmaker, theater maker, writer. Which of these came first? And is there an area that you're focusing in particular now?

[24:26] Drew Gregory: Um, yeah, I like pre-dating my earliest memories. I wanted to make movies and like learned that that was called like a director and was like, I want to be a movie director. Um, so when other kids were like, I want to be a fireman, I was like, I want to be a movie director, which was very precocious, and really the adults like enjoyed that. Um, but it really just like never changed. Uh, and like I did like I discovered theater and then started working in that too, and then the sort of culture writing that I do came a bit later. Um, but I would say that I still primarily think of myself as as a filmmaker and a screenwriter. Um that is usually where I like sort of keep that's like where I keep coming back to even as I like gather these other loves.

[25:12] Harrow: Amazing.

[25:12] Meghan: And speaking of filmmaking, uh you created this wonderful short during quarantine called The First Time about a Zoom date. And can you tell us more about the inspiration for where that came from?

[25:24] Drew Gregory: Yeah, um, so I had like I hadn't made a movie in a in a few years. Um I like before I transitioned, I was making like a few shorts a year. I went to NYU film school, and so like really since I was 14, I was making like at least a handful of shorts every year. And then I just was what like one at a place in my career and as an adult where it was like, oh, to make things like like cost a little bit more money. I had more of an idea leaving school of like what I don't know, like production values and things that I like wanted to achieve. And then like just through transitioning and adjusting to that like new aspect of my life and having jobs and etc. etc. like I just wasn't, I just like hadn't made a short, and I was like, This year I'm gonna do it.

Like I have I had a script that I wrote that was like wrote for my house, so it could like be pretty cheap, and I was like, I'm gonna do it. And then the pandemic happened, and I was like, okay, well, such a big part of being an artist is like taking limitations and going with them. And so I was like starting to think like well is there anything that I could do while I'm home and while I have this time and um I was still like pretty actively dating virtually and uh I decided that I wanted to tell a story not just about like a queer Zoom date but also specifically getting into this like pattern that I had experienced where a lot of the people who I was going on dates with who were interested in me were pretty new to queerness and like as a trans woman I felt a little bit complicated about that that I was like going out with cis women who had like never been with other cis women and being like oh am I a stepping stone like that's not what my gender is and that's confusing and whatever.

[27:14] Drew Gregory: Um but then also being like maybe that's insecurity and so like there were all these things that I wanted to unpack and so I think you know there's not a ton of media out there about queer trans women but I think I always want to go one step further and like focus in on something specific that is like on my mind and fits whatever characters I want to tell a story about.

[27:36] Meghan: Did the piece change a lot once you realized it had to be done via Zoom or done like remotely in your apartment?

[27:43] Drew Gregory: Well this one so like the initial script that I was gonna make like it was that was totally different. It was like it was a total like totally different character is a different story. And so this was like created to be done remotely done on Zoom. And my co-star in it like lives in New York and I live in LA, so that was like fun that like we both both characters like live in Los Angeles, but I was able to like cast this actor I really love who lives in New York. And so um that aspect of it was really nice.

[28:12] Drew Gregory: I was like amazed after watching it that it was as short as it was. I feel like you covered so much in such a short period of time. Um I encourage everyone to go watch it. It's it's an incredible short film. Um and I just wanted to share, like, I was awkward laughing at so many moments of it. It was like very like cringeworthy in the best possible way, some of the things that were happening. Um I just wanted to ask, like how the dialogue was influenced by the medium since you had to change, especially knowing that you had to change it from being something that was in person, your original idea to this new idea that was all remote.

[28:50] Drew Gregory: Yeah. You know, I feel like I I tend to write pretty dialogue heavy material. I think some of that's like coming from it's funny because I started like wanting to make movies, and then because of what was available like as a teenager and also like going to school in New York, theater was such a present part of my creativity and of the art that I was consuming. So I think part of that is like sometimes I'll like be writing a movie and I'll write a a scene of like characters talking that will go on for like dozens of pages and be like, oh wait, this is the wrong like this is like I still have that theater brain sometimes. Um and so like to me, there are aspects of it that are like it's like a two person play, right?

And like we sort of rehearsed it that way. Um, and it's fun because I think like I don't know, I've definitely watched my fair share of Zoom theater over the last year, and um I I think some of the stuff that's worked best has been like very aware of the limitations, and so with that, I think uh the fact that the movie itself takes place on Zoom and the characters are actually communicating it, like communicating this way. I don't know, it feels like an opportunity to be able to like I create dialogue that is actually like truthful to the experience of being on Zoom as opposed to um another type of movie or a play that I'm like trying to force into these constraints.

[30:16] Meghan: Mm-hmm. And and thinking back on some of your theater work, we were wondering about your work on the visitation and what it's like to direct an immersive piece and and what came first for you. Was it the show or the venue?

[30:30] Drew Gregory: Um so the playwright had Michael Bontadovis had written the play and um had actually found the venue, like and brought like when like we first talked, like brought both the text and the venue to me. Um and I mean for me, like I had never directed an immersive, that was my first immersive show. And but like having experience with film, which has so many moving parts, and you know, like you're on a location often, like it was it was a really nice sort of joining of those two experiences. Um it was great. I mean, it was such a it was originally just gonna be a weekend, and we like did all this prep for it and then it like sold out and was successful, and so we brought it back for a much longer run the next year, and it just was like I love immersive theater, even if a lot of it is not particularly good, but I always felt like you know, it's like whatever, but but I like when it's good, it's so good, and um it was really fun to try to achieve that and to try to like uh use that new medium.

I don't know, I think I'm always excited by like different ways of telling stories and and different like whether that is in the medium or the story itself, and uh yeah, that was a really that was a really great experience.

[31:45] Drew Gregory: I was actually was thinking about though that um when we started rehearsal on that play it was in 2017 and I had been out of the closet for like six months. That's it. And like at the time it just was like, oh like yes I have all these things going on in in my personal life and with my identity whatever but like I'm still gonna like make art and I'm still gonna create whatever like it was sort of like a no brainer for me but I was thinking about it now like I don't know three years later, four years later, whatever at and being like and being like that was wild. I was just like I was like a lot was going on in my life but I was just directing a play. Um maybe I needed the distraction or maybe I was working some things out through it but uh I was I was like reminiscing about that and was like wow that's really what a unique experience to be like transitioning while like I started on hormones while directing that play. Like I think like right around when the run happened. So I don't know. That was just something I was thinking about recently.

[32:38] Meghan: My gosh your bandwidth sounds insane don't think I could do that. Is there a dream space you would want to direct an immersive theater piece in or like a even if it doesn't exist you or if you want to be an audience member. This is a very open question.

[32:55] Drew Gregory: It's like a dream immersive space. My God that's so interesting. I'm sure I've 'cause it was so funny when I was directing the visitation it was like so where my brain was and I was like I'm only gonna direct immersive theater for forever. I'm trying to think where like what I was thinking about at the time um I think I probably was thinking more like cycling through different plays of being like ooh, what would it be like to do an immersive like this or that? And and also I think um the the the visitation was like very text heavy. Like when I think of something like Sleep No More that's more like dance based. This was like a text-based play. And so it did make me think of like, I don't know, like some of the like even like classics of American theater that like I love and grew up with being like, what would it be like to have the glass menagerie as an immersive play where you're like where you're like, yeah, it's not it doesn't at all demand that, but like the intimacy of just being in a in a room with people and like I don't know.

So think I don't know. I think like I would probably skew towards that. It's not really like there's locations that I was thinking of. I was thinking of being like, okay, like how can this medium be used to I don't know, add a new element to like certain plays that we maybe still do all the time, but haven't done been done in that way.

[34:10] Meghan: And can you tell us a little bit about the space where the visitation was just for folks who didn't get a chance to see it?

[34:15] Drew Gregory: Yeah, it was um it was this house called the Whitecough House, which I believe is the like oldest house in New York City. Um it was like deep in Brooklyn, and like, oh my god, that was the one thing of like it the the taking like the amount of like buses and subways to get there. Um which we were like, you know, for rehearsal it was it was like could be a bit tedious, but then we were like, is our is an audience gonna do this? But then it becomes part of it, right? Like it's like a fun adventure of being like, wow, we're getting on we're taking an hour and a half to get to this like oldest house in New York City. Commitment. Um I'm trying to remember what the exact like I'm trying to be, I'm like, is it I think it's 17th century?

Um like the exact year of how old it is. Uh but the house was like really well preserved and um and the play was like took place in the 17th century, and it was like about about that time, and it was just like so great to have that authenticity and and that that energy in the space um it definitely like added in addition to the like immersive qualities even just if we had like recreated that space in a warehouse in manhattan I don't think it would have the same energy as just like I don't know it was like there was an authenticity there.

[35:31] Meghan: One more question going back to that if you were to go back to theater and stage something again do you have any dream projects in the works?

[35:38] Drew Gregory: No yeah I do so it's interesting actually like I would say the dream projects I have now are plays that are written by friends that I love and that I'm like oh I want to I want to make this a reality I feel like I'm lucky to have like a community of artists and so I don't know like my friend T-Rish has this play that that they did a uh like a Zoom performance of and like watching it I was like I had that like director buzz of like I need to get my hands on this like when the pandemic's over we can do like a proper production of this like I need I need to make this um so I think I think a lot of the work that I'm excited about is work that's like never been done before and is like being is being written by friends and I hope to help create that's awesome.

[36:23] Meghan: Yeah I would love to see more new works and and have you direct them too. Jumping over to your work as a staff writer at Auto Straddle how much freedom do you have when you choose what you write about you've written a lot about theater and do you have a favorite piece or most memorable piece that you've done um I have a lot of freedom and this is something so Auto Shuttle is an independent website and there's not a lot of like indie media anymore, let alone like indie queer media anymore.

[36:50] Drew Gregory: And that independence allows as a staff writer to have independence also and have very like close relationships with my editors. And it's really a gift as a writer. It's like the trade-off is there's like we don't have a lot of money, but uh we have a lot of freedom and can write things and can steer conversations in ways that um I don't know that feel really important still and really special, especially when so much of the conversation is unfortunately like being dictated by corporations because that's who is like sort of running a lot of media companies.

[37:31] Drew Gregory: Um I have a favorite piece. It's interesting. So okay, so this like past week I published a like really sort of like personal vulnerable piece that was like about genitalia and about like trans bodies and the way people talk about them. And I'm really happy that I get to write something like that that feels like it has a purpose to it, and that I get to write something like that at Autostradle where like I can have jokes that because I've written for a few other places, and um I do find that like what gets lost sometimes is the personality. Like, I don't know, like I have like I like have a joke about the movie Barbarella in it. Like there's just like things like that that like I that wouldn't that would be cut, I think usually for most publications, and those are the things though that like make me a person and not just like a uh like I don't know, someone who's like campaigning to have my full humanity.

[38:28] Drew Gregory: Um that really and that is what gives the full humanity though, right? Or like those like jokes and little things. So that's like really special to me. And then though, like I also love that I that doesn't have to be all my pieces, right? And so like, um, I think probably the piece that I've written that I care most about and I'm proudest of is an essay I wrote about Portrait of a Lady on Fire. That's like very much about I don't know my like romantic history and learning to let go and to um accept that things end. And like there's no aspect of that. I mean, I guess because I'm queer and trans, there's like those identities are important to me and so important to everything I write, but um there's no I would not describe that as like a pointedly political piece, or it's it's just like it's politics are that I am getting the freedom to be creative and to like excavate my like personal life in a way that feels sort of casual and feels like the sort of personal essay writing that I think the queer people and trans people and queer trans people don't necessarily always get the allowance to do.

[39:40] Meghan: Yeah, I was just rereading the Portrait of the Lady on Fire essay, and it's so beautiful and personal. And you also recently, well, recently ish wrote an article about uh queer women in movie musicals and discuss some upcoming movie musicals that are happening. Is there one that you are looking forward to the most?

[40:00] Drew Gregory: Okay, well, so obviously, like we've all been waiting for in the heights for so long and so long.

[40:04] Drew Gregory: When I wrote that piece, I made a joke that like um I was like, you know, In the Heights is coming out soon, and like it might be queer because there's this one shot in the trailer that I've overanalyzed, but recently Steph Beatrice like confirmed that it is in fact like going like that her character and Daphne Rubin Vega's character like are going to like be in a relationship.

[40:26] Meghan: Oh, I just got chills.

[40:28] Harrow: Oh my god.

[40:29] Drew Gregory: So I'm like, I'm like so excited that that little thing I picked up on the trailer is real.

[40:33] Meghan: Amazing.

[40:34] Drew Gregory: I also am like very much planning since I feel like I've been saying this for like I don't know, almost a year of being like, okay, I just the first time I go to a movie theater again post-pandemic is going to be to see In the Heights. Like, and I was like, I hope that's not gonna require too much risk, and now that I'll probably be vaccinated, I'm like, I’m very relieved to be like, okay, I'll still put on a mask, but that I can actually do that. It's like very realistic that in June I'll be able to, so I'm very excited for that.

[40:59] Drew Gregory: And then um, some stuff that's like in development, uh, The Princess and the Dressmaker is like that book. I've never read it. It feels like from my dreams of like the like I the idea of like a I don't know, like trans feminine lesbian love story that's like I'm like fairy tale, and that like Robert Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez are gonna be doing the music for it. I just obviously like when something's announced, it doesn't mean that it's gonna get made, especially when it's queer, but I'm like just praying that it actually gets made and actually happens because if so, I think it will be my favorite thing to ever exist ever.

[41:37] Meghan: Amazing.

[41:38] Harrow: Oh, I love that. Did you grow up with movie musicals and where did you find your love of them?

[41:44] Drew Gregory: Yes, I did. So the first like movie that I was obsessed with was Grease. Um, and then like I I like used to pretend my parents' coffee table was the car was free-sliding. And was like really, yeah, dance around. And um, once my sister told me that uh she could make my hair look like Danny Zucco's, and she just like put a bunch of butterfly clips in it, and my mom was like, Why do you have those in your hair? And I was like, because I want to look like Danny Zucco, and she was like, Oh, that's not gonna happen. And I like threw a tantrum. I was like, um, don't touch me. I'm doing the process to get my hair to look the way I want. Um but so that was like a very uh special one to me. And then Chicago, like when Chicago came out, that was like game changing.

[42:31] Drew Gregory: Oh, I love Chicago still so much, and would like sing along with my sister on car rides and just like was obsessed with Chicago. Um both of Grease and Chicago, very gay. Like, I mean, Chicago's like explicitly gay in some ways, but Grease is very gay. They're both very gay. I remember having the Chicago CD and my like portable CD player on the bus. It's like such a just like middle school, high school mood. Just be listening to Queen Latifah's "Mama."

[43:05] Drew Gregory: Yeah, I think I saw it five times in the movie theater, and then like the fourth time it was a totally empty theater, and it was just me and my friend, and we definitely like sang along and danced in the seats.

[43:17] Harrow: You have to pay for that now.

[43:18] Meghan: That's so beautiful.

[43:19] Drew Gregory: Yeah, private screenings. Amazing. Were there any um lesser-known picks from that list that you wanted to highlight of movie musicals?

[43:29] Drew Gregory: Oh my god, yeah. There's one that I'm obsessed with. It's called Holy Camp, and it's on Netflix, which is great because I love when I can make like a more obscure recommendation, but it's like it's right there on Netflix. You can watch it tonight. Um it's this Spanish musical that came out a few years ago, and it's directed by um the creators of the show Veneno. It's like they it's like the first movie that they made. Um and it's very pointedly blasphemous. Like it's about nuns and gods singing Whitney Houston songs, and um it's absurd, but like if you want to get on its wavelength, it's like gay and fun and meaningful also. Like I think when it first started and it was like singing nuns, someone's gonna be gay because I had heard that someone was gay in it. And then and then like I it really snuck up on me with how deep it was.

[44:22] Drew Gregory: And I sometimes think that the things that are like pointedly blasphemous are at least for me, like more spiritual, that there's like something about it that's like getting to something deeper than just like I don't know. So I I really love that movie and it's it's again, it's on Netflix.

[44:37] Meghan: That's awesome. I haven't seen it, so I definitely have to check it out.

[44:39] Drew Gregory: Yeah, to bump it up to the top of the list. Speaking of lists, I've had the top 200 best lesbian, bisexual, and queer movies of all time bookmarked for a long time because anytime it's the weekend and my partner and I need to watch something, I'm like, all right, what's streaming? Um so you said this was a rigorous multi-step process and you continue to update it. Can you share some of the new additions for 2021 to this epic list?

[45:07] Drew Gregory: Yeah, so there's like two categories that are gonna be added every time we update it, right? There's gonna be stuff that came out in the past year, and then there's gonna be stuff that either we revisit like this year, like we added Rocky Horror, and initially, you know, it's not really thought of as like a queer woman musical or a queer woman movie, and then when I was like working on the list of of like queer women musicals, there were some of these movies where I was like, oh, this totally counts for this, and so it also should count for the big list because, like, you know, Frank and Furter uses the language transvestite, but given you know the time period, we can we can like language changes all the time, and I think it's fair to assume that Frank N. Furter is not a man, whether what like what her gender is, who knows.

But like there's also like you know, supporting characters that are whatever, like there are queer women and non-binary people using our current language and in that movie. So that's so that was added, and then some new ones.

[46:08] Drew Gregory: So there's this movie called House of Hummingbird that's not brand new, but I think it wasn't available in the US until last year. Uh it's a Korean movie that I'm obsessed with. It's so so good, and it's pretty long, but it's long in that way where you're like, I don't know. Sometimes I feel like movies should either be like 90 minutes or like three hours, and I'm like, it is it's not the fully three hours, but it is like two and a half hours, but it's like a coming of age movie, and it's like, how often do you get that much time to just like it like makes this like young girl's like life feel epic in a way that it is to her, and um it's a really really good movie, and that's available to rent.

[46:48] Drew Gregory: And then um this movie Alice Jr. that's Brazilian. Um, that's also on Netflix, actually, uh, is another coming of age movie that's about this trans teenager, and it is ugly it's like I don't like spoil it by saying all the reasons I love it because some of those happen towards the end, but it is just like so charming, and I like I don't know, I like love 90s teen comedies, and it has like that energy to me, but with an added sort of like social media I don't know, intense social media presence. It's like 90s teen comedies meets Snapchat, and it's very, very good.

[47:25] Meghan: Oh, amazing. I really want to check out the Hummingbird one. I don't think I've seen uh I'm Korean, I don't think I've seen a movie a Korean movie about a queer woman before that's really exciting.

[47:35] Drew Gregory: It's really really good. And again are there other buried gems in that list that you think people should check out?

[47:41] Drew Gregory: Yeah, let's see. Okay, so my favorite movie on the list and actually a big impetus for me first like asking to like read to the list because I didn't think it was high enough and I was like I wanna I want to fix that um is The Watermelon Woman directed by Cheryl Dunier. Um and luckily or like I'm grateful that it's gotten uh a bit more recognition over the last few years. It got restored and had a like a release so um but that is that's like my favorite movie on the list which it's at five right now which I can I can deal with because the list isn't my taste. Like we voted and we did a whole thing. But that's my personal favorite.

[48:20] Drew Gregory: And there's another movie by Cheryl Dunier called Mommy is Coming that she made more recently that um is uh very wild um it's a little bit pornographic it's just like very much like does not care about respectability politics and it's the sparse and it's fun and it's very queer and I love that movie as well. And then there's a Colombian filmmaker named Ruth Cardelli who has only made two films Eva and Candela and Second Star on the Right and I think they're both great. And I think what's great about her is that we do get a lot of coming of age movies which I love because I love coming of age movies. And we get a lot of period pieces which again I also love when they're good, but she just makes movies about like messy 30 somethings who are queer and just like living their lives and trying to like get you know get their act together and like that is something that I feel like is missing a little bit from our cinema.

[49:18] Drew Gregory: So um she's really special, and especially because she only is on like she's made two movies, and I'm like she has this whole career ahead of her and is super queer and is in a relationship with her like frequent lead actress, which is great, you love to see it. So um, so yeah, she's also someone. Second Star on the Right, especially, I think is really really good movie. I feel like I'm getting the like best homework assignment ever. I like I'm gonna follow up. I'm gonna check. I'm gonna be like, have you watched it? Come on.

[49:48] Meghan: And thinking more about new things, um, you were recently at the virtual Sundance, and were you able to see any of the queer theater makers there? Is there anything we should be like looking out for or following?

[49:58] Drew Gregory: Theater makers or filmmakers? Either, I guess. Because there was, well, okay, so there was a piece I think what it was, because I did actually see some like filmed theater that was at Sundance. Um, but the best thing that I saw at Sundance was this web series called Four Feet High. Um I think a lot about how um disability representation in queer media is terrible and is not at all where we should have it, and is like mostly because it's just not present, and when it is, it's often not done well, but it's just there's so there's so few. There's only one movie on on the big list that um has queer people with disabilities, and it's I mean, it wasn't made by people who are disabled. So um this web series, uh the lead actress uses a wheelchair, and one of the two directors uses a wheelchair, and it's just I think when people are allowed to tell their own stories, sort of what I was talking about a bit with like the work that I do at Autostraddle, like you are allowed you are given the opportunity to I don't know, just like it's I I just get into more nuance and to get to have humor and to have like just weird things and weird deal, like I'm like I'm trying to think like what it is exactly.

It's like it's like it's not you're not educating, you're not sort of like taking um these like broad strokes of what it's like to have this identity. Instead, you're like, no, this is a person, and they have their own experiences as a person, and then they also have this identity or this experience. Um and watching that series, I just was like, this is so good. I want everyone involved in this to get to make a bunch of more things, and also like I wish that we had like more movies and TV shows about queer disabled people. So that I really whenever that's like available online, and it also has a virtual reality component, which um is very interesting.

[52:04] Meghan: What? Cool.

[52:05] Drew Gregory: And like uh because I was I was writing about Sundance like through their uh inclusion initiative, and part of that was they sent us VR headsets so we could like see everything, and I I it was like incredible. I mean, I think it really works without it, which I assume is how most people watch it when it's online at some point, but it was like I mean, it was like it was like immersive theater. It was like being plopped in the middle of a coming of age movie, and it was so cool. Like it's a moment where they're like playing a game of like spin the bottle and like you're in the circle, and I was like, oh my god, I'm like processing teenage drama right now. Um, but it's just like, yeah, it's really really really special like series and um I I don't know I'm excited for it to get released so more people can see it.

[52:52] Meghan: That sounds awesome. So you shared that you're currently working on a million projects. Would you like to talk about any of those projects that you're working on or tell us what we have to look forward to?

[53:01] Drew Gregory: Yeah um the main thing that I'm working on right now is I wrote a script that's a body swap movie but it's explicitly trans. So it's like about a 16 year old newly out trans girl and her older sister is like the popular girl at her high school and they body swap.

[53:21] Drew Gregory: And uh I'm currently like developing that and so I'm like fine-tuning the script right now and and um I'm really excited about it. I really want to see it made because it's again like I love 90s teen comedies and it's very much inspired by that. Like it's like 10 Things I Hate About You is like a major influence on it. And I just I don't know like I wanna um I also I just like I want to also give like teenagers and preteens the media that I did not have like there just was not any sort of trans representation there I mean the queer representation I had wasn't even like that great that I mean it existed but I didn't really know about it and what was like around was not super great. I was sort of relying on like a subplot on The OC.

Like that was sort of like where things um so I like really want to I don't know, I always think about who my audience is, and for the most part it's other trans people, other queer people, and having the opportunity potentially to um give like trans teens a story like that that they can relate to that validates their experiences and humanity is something that's really important to me, especially given like, you know, in the last few weeks, last month, there have been like I think we're at like 80 anti-trans bills across state legislatures, many of which, like most of which target trans kids because it's easier to target kids. And um I just think about I don't know, I just I really want uh teenagers to have um things that I didn't have then and have options that I didn't have and have validation that I didn't have.

And like I'm very lucky to have the community that I have now. Um, but I but I wish that people wouldn't have to wait until you know they're like 25 and wait till um I don't know. So that's something that I'm thinking about. It is it's and it's it's also real, but it's funny like I say that and also like again, it's like inspired by 90s teen comedies. It's a comedy, it's like funny. Um but that's but that's part of it, right? Like I want I want to um combine humor and just slice of life experiences with certain things that are often seen as more serious or that are treated in a way that focuses on trauma and it's said to be like, okay, like yes, like let's let's ground it in the reality of of our experiences, but then let's you know make it a comedy, make it a musical, you know.

So um that one is not a musical, but uh I want more, you know, I want I want that. I want I mean that's why I love musicals, right? Like I love I love when we can like bring in these other aspects that um don't take away from the depth of the emotion, but actually like heighten it.

[56:20] Drew Gregory: Yeah, I hope that you know uh at least Megan and I's generation and and it sounds like your generation is like the last of the ones who don't have that queer representation growing up. Um yeah, I don't know. And it we definitely need more, you know, disabled folks, people of color, different body sizes, but yeah, I'm hoping that uh there's like a slight shift and there's more available to folks. For sure. And we're I mean, yeah, I mean it's but even with just what's happened in the last few years, it's I mean, I think specifically with trans representation, it's like so many of the examples that I would say are like the best trans representation that I've ever seen are in the last three years. So things are changing. Um and that's really really exciting to me. Yeah, and I do think like uh TV and movies are a little ahead of theater, unfortunately.

[57:11] Drew Gregory: Yeah. Um so I hope that we follow behind soon. So jumping over to our kind of final sections of the episode, um, our first one is queering the canon. So is there a movie musical or a favorite movie character whose story you'd like to queer?

[57:29] Drew Gregory: Okay, so um I think at this point, it like regardless of the upcoming new movie with Scott Johansson, like Little Shop is they're trans in that, and I've just like that's no longer needs to be done in in my brain, because it's already like canon. And I did see MJ Rodriguez's Audrey, and that was like a a very like amazing opportunity to see because she's incredible. Oh my gosh. Um, but so I'm like glad that's been discussed enough to then move on to what I want next, which is trans Sweet Charity. That to me feels so like obvious just because of I don't know, like I love Sweet Charity as a teenager and I still love it now. Um but just this like this character who just like wants so badly to be loved and who isn't an often and is like has all these like moments of false promise and uh I just like I really want to see um that character uh cast either either like explicitly made trans and changing the book and I mean I would love to make a new movie of Sweet Charity, even though like going into Bob Fosse's shoes is a little bit much.

But um, you know, up to the challenge. But but even just casting that part, I don't know. I mean, it's just it's just like such a no-brainer to me to have this like wonderful character who's a sex worker and who is like filled with optimism and and hope and I don't know. I just I I love Sweet Charity and I want to see a trans. And then I also want a lesbian Last Five Years, which is also something I talk about all the time. Where I'm like say it forever. I don't think we're gonna get it because Jason Robert Brown is like very annoying about it, but I'm like it's just it I I really really want it and um also that I could use a few changes to some of so some of those I mean I love The Last Five Years, but uh it's it's definitely like a I don't know, a complicated fave.

So um I was like, you know, just I if I could just rewrite a few things, make it lesbian, please let me do it, Jason. I mean, just do it and apologize later. I feel like that's I think that's what you would do.

[59:36] Drew Gregory: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. You know, gif I think I could pull it off if it was in like a 99 seat theater. Probably won't get in too much trouble before you get a weekend out of that. But um yeah. As long as you can show him it makes money, I bet you might do it.

[59:50] Drew Gregory: Yeah. I just need to get like give me a sit down with Jason Robert Brown, just like a few drinks. I feel like I could convince him that it's a good idea. I think so. That's definitely um probably a diluted thought, but uh because who knows? But I do feel it just it makes so much sense. I feel it anyways.

[1:00:06] Drew Gregory: Yeah, even I feel like all of us listening to like uh as little queers like listening to her singing about Jamie. I'm like, this Jamie is cis man in my mind.

[1:00:18] Drew Gregory: Yeah. I also would love to say that I identify with Kathy and that I don't identify with Jamie, but that's um just something that I have to be filled with shame to say. A little bit, you know, I've got that ambitious streak and uh there's good parts of Jamie. There's just some really bad parts.

[1:00:36] Drew Gregory: Really bad. Really not the best, but uh yeah. Yeah. Kathy deserves better. Wow, sorry, I could keep talking about that. All I ever want to do is talk about lesbian Last Five Years. I feel like I bring it up at least like once a year to anyone who will listen to it.

[1:00:50] Drew Gregory: We have to keep fighting for this until our dreams come true. It's gonna happen. I know. Do you have like a dream like musical theater cast for that?

[1:00:58] Drew Gregory: Wow. Um no, but I am gonna spend probably the next week thinking about it, and even though it will not be included in this, I will be sending an email being like, okay, I've thought about it and I have it perfect and uh we'll add it in the show notes.

[1:01:10] Drew Gregory: We will add it. I I need ideas.

[1:01:17] Drew Gregory: So outside of theater, which you do many things outside of theater, do you have another queer cultural indulgence besides all of the amazing shows and movies that you just told us to watch?

[1:01:27] Drew Gregory: Um honestly, like the thing that's probably my most honest answer is I and I don't know if this counts as a queer cultural indulgence, but like going out. I like miss going to clubs and dancing and listening to music, either like explicitly gay pop music or just pop music is all gay. Like I just I I like I don't think we're acting I we're close to things being a little bit less at home, but I don't think we're that close to like going to a club and like being around sweaty strangers. It's probably like we're probably another year away from that at least, but I miss it a lot, and it like is a big part of queer culture to me and community to me, and I miss it. And I like anytime I'm watching a movie or whatever, or I was writing uh a script that like had a lot of scenes that took place at gay clubs, and I just was like, I miss it so much. I just want it back.

[1:02:27] Drew Gregory: Do you have any like substitute for when you really miss miss the clubs?

[1:02:31] Drew Gregory: Um, I live with two of my closest friends who are both also queer and trans, and there definitely have been a few nights where we've like just the living room becomes the gay bar. And you know, you make you make use with what you can.

[1:02:47] Drew Gregory: And you know, yeah. I went to like a a DJ'd birthday party Zoom that and I'm not like a big club person, but it was so much fun, and it did really make me miss going out and being in that environment. It's funny that like the friends of mine who aren't big, like going out people and at this point are like, I need to I need to go out, I need chaos. And I'm like, yeah, save it's up.

[1:03:12] Drew Gregory: I know. I used to complain about it so much, and like what I wouldn't give to have to like wait on the A train at 2 a.m. right now to come home.

[1:03:20] Drew Gregory: Oh, and our our final section we call Queer Gives, uh, where we shout out different organizations or uh mutual aid funds that support LGBTQ plus communities. Uh and you wanted to shout out the Trans Justice Funding Project.

[1:03:34] Drew Gregory: Um is there anything you want to say about why you like them or uh how people can support?

[1:03:39] Drew Gregory: Yeah, um I think the reason why I like them and have continued to give money to them over the years is that they give money directly to trans people and like grassroots organizations, so they basically like collect all the money and then people apply with grants and then they like they give this money to trans-led organizations. And I think similarly to like what I'm talking about with art, like I think I think an organization that is run by trans people and you know, initiatives that are run by trans people are going to know how to take care of the community better than people who are just like trying to help from the outside. Um so I think that is something that I really appreciate about them.

[1:04:20] Drew Gregory: And it's actually really funny because I started giving money to them before I came out, and I just was my my way of being in the closet was just being like number one ally. Um, and and they sent me like a fundraising packet the way that like you know, charities will do. They sent it to my my like my apartment, um happened to send it like the week that I came out to my girlfriend at the time, and there just became this packet that just said like trans on it, and it was like d just do you all get this in the mail when it when you come out? Um yeah, I was like, Oh I got it, cool, yeah, it's official. Um, but yeah, I just I really love the work that they do and the work that they support.

[1:04:57] Meghan: So amazing.

[1:04:58] Drew Gregory: Awesome.

[1:04:59] Meghan: We'll be sure to shout them out.

[1:05:00] Drew Gregory: That's great.

[1:05:01] Meghan: And last but not least, how can our listeners follow you on the many places that you are online?

[1:05:06] Drew Gregory: Yeah, um, I'm on Twitter and Instagram at draw underscore Gregory. So my name, but in the present tense. And I'm also you can read my work at Autostraddle just by, you know, if you search Drew Gregory, Autostraddle stuff will come up. And if you find me on Twitter, like my Vimeo is linked, so you can you can watch the movie that I made and um find find all my other stuff.

[1:05:27] Meghan: Yeah, and we'll link to the um the movie in the show notes too.

[1:05:31] Meghan: Well, thank you so much, Drew. This was such a fun conversation, and like I said, I have so much to do now.

[1:05:37] Drew Gregory: Thank you.

[1:05:37] Meghan: Yeah, please do your homework.

[1:05:38] Drew Gregory: Come on.

[1:05:39] Meghan: Yeah, oh we're good students.

[1:05:40] Drew Gregory: Good homework.

[1:05:41] Meghan: Uh it's important.

[1:05:42] Drew Gregory: Yeah, good.

[1:05:44] Meghan: Thanks for listening. If you like, please follow, rate, and review us, and share us with your friends. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Thesis on Joan.

[1:05:53] Meghan: We love to hear your queer culture vects and ideas for clearing the canon. Send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[1:06:04] Meghan: Come back for more interviews, fun, queer content, recommendations, and discussions on current theater. Until next time, keep it queer.

[1:06:12] Drew Gregory: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[1:06:20] Meghan: It was such a nerdy musical theater moment when I realized Annie Golden was quoting Hair.

[1:06:25] Drew Gregory: Oh my gosh.

[1:06:27] Meghan: I don't think I clocked that.

[1:06:29] Drew Gregory: So great.

[1:06:30] Meghan: Because I think that was the line I realized it was Annie Golden, and I'm like, oh my god, she's like saying the Aquarius lines.

[1:06:37] Drew Gregory: I'm sure that was intentional.

[1:06:38] Meghan: It was so great.