This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Hello, queers.

[0:01] Meghan: Welcome to season three, episode 11 of Thesis on Joan with Harrow and Meghan.

[0:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective.

[0:23] Meghan: Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curtain.

[0:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: For many queers, theater has been an escape, and this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:39] Meghan: Hey Harrow, how's it going?

[0:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's good. I can't believe we're almost to the end of this season.

[0:45] Meghan: I know.

[0:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Wow.

[0:47] Meghan: Yeah.

[0:48] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Our penultimate episode.

[0:50] Meghan: Yeah.

[0:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I know thinking all the way back to like Paula Vogel.

[0:54] Meghan: That feels like a whole other time.

[0:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh, I wanted to ask you what makes a show queer to you? Because we are essentially covering queer shows. And what does that mean to you?

[1:07] Meghan: That's a really good question. Um, and I feel like where I've landed on that, because so many things have been like pleasantly queer to me, is that it's either content, it's queer, right? There's either a character that identifies as queer or the storyline is queer. I mean, I guess that would usually mean both those things are in the show. Um, or like the casting is queer. So maybe it's like a, um, like thinking about our conversation with Sis, right? The, um, you know, you have a trans woman playing Edo Annie. There's nothing now about, there's nothing about that original script that's queer, but like bringing in this performer, you now have a queer performer in the show, so to me it's queer. I don't know if that's right, but that's kind of how I read things. I don't know, how about you?

[2:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I agree. And I think I think I think El Morgan pointed this out to us that like putting a trans woman in a role doesn't necessarily like queer it because they're a woman. Uh, but I think questioning around gender and questioning around sexuality makes something queer for me. Um, so yeah it doesn't necessarily and I think even there are some shows that are like gay that I wouldn't classify as queer because it feels like going with the status quo as opposed to like questioning our norms that I'm more interested in. Does that make sense?

[2:45] Meghan: Yeah do you have an example of a show that you would say is gay but not necessarily queer?

[2:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Take Me Out.

[2:47] Meghan: Yeah, I mean Normal Heart or uh or what was the, the Inheritance?

[2:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah I didn't see the Inheritance. I would say Normal Heart is queer just because I think like the creation of family that had to happen for the community of Normal Heart feels queer to me.

[3:14] Meghan: Mm-hmm and I I do love that play. Um but yeah I don't know I and I haven't read Take Me Out in a long time or seen it so I could be wrong but that feels like a little more like I feel like Lakage feels queer to me.

[3:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[3:32] Meghan: Um but trying to think of another just like not queer but gay show.

[3:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[3:39] Meghan: Because there that definitely exists. I'm trying to think like there's there's definitely been shows I can't this is terrible because I can't think of an example. But like even if there is like gay or queer things in the content if it's not used in a way that's like I don't know. I I would almost say Kinky Boots kind of feels gay to me.

[4:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[4:02] Meghan: As opposed to queer just because it's so messy with how it handles talking about gender.

[4:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Do you feel like that divide has something to do like that divide has something to do with um the audience that's intended for the show?

[4:18] Meghan: Yeah I think so I think the the shows I think more well I don't know I think it's also the writing and the directing like if I guess the shows that are less interesting to me are written and created by cis white men. And because that tends and you know not all not hashtag not all men uh but I just feel like there's less um investigation in some of the shows I've seen um into gender and sexuality when it comes to that.

[4:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[4:53] Meghan: Yeah definitely the good thing is though that I feel like even in the past like few years I've had to search less and less for shows that I would classify as queer which is exciting.

[5:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[5:07] Meghan: And sometimes we don't know like in looking for the through the for this podcast trying to find the queer shows um I also appreciate the shows that don't, you know, broadcast it that it's queer.

[5:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Totally.

[5:19] Meghan: But then it makes it hard for us to find them.

[5:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and promote them.

[5:23] Meghan: Right.

[5:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well we'll talk about one of those today that I just saw. But um I'm always surprised I'm pleasantly surprised by queer, but yeah, I I like to know it going in because I'm excited about it. But again, maybe that's a question of audience. Maybe they are I don't know. I could speculate that, but maybe they're trying to Diana O has a really had a really great definition of queer in their lingerie play show. It was like uh it was like queering the status. It wasn't it didn't necessarily have to do with gender and sexuality, but it was more just like, are you fucking up the norms? Are you queering like how you think of capitalism, of democracy, of you know, all these things that I was like, yes, that that feels queer to me, not necessarily like are two people of the same gender kissing?

[6:13] Meghan: Right.

[6:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[6:16] Meghan: That's when you say that, not that I like follow this super closely, but I've done some reading on it, like queer theology when people look at the Bible as a queer text. It's not like ooh, what what characters in the Bible might be gay? It's like let's assume that none of this is like what it seems to be. And so like the creation myth being like I'm not doing a good job explaining this, but it's basically turning everything on its head and questioning it and assuming that it's not as it seems. Um it's kind of like what queer theology does.

[6:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I like that.

[6:50] Meghan: Yeah. And I think part of it is definitely, oh, two people of the same gender are kissing, or people two people with you know amorphous genders are in the show, you know.

[7:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[7:02] Meghan: Um, yeah, I don't know. It's uh it feels like an umbrella term to me that is full of love and uh, you know, possibility.

[7:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[7:12] Meghan: Yeah.

[7:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And more of it is always welcome.

[7:16] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[7:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think that translates beautifully into the first uh series of shows we wanted to talk about today. Uh we're back for another show discussion episode.

[7:28] Meghan: And uh I know we we both got to see some of the Breaking the Binary Theatre Festival which was such an amazing week of theater.

[7:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I got to see TRANS WORLD by Ty Defoe and Hide and Hide by Roger Q Mason. And then we both got to go see the the night of monologues called Overheard.

[7:49] Meghan: So yeah I can I can start with TRANS WORLD.

[7:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah please I want to hear more.

[7:55] Meghan: Yeah Trans World was written by former guest Ty Defoe and directed by Dominique Ryder with dramaturgy by Josephine Kearns. Uh so this was a a full cast of trans folk kind of like a uh a reality show real world scenario where they throw a bunch of people into a house living together in Hawaii.

[8:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um it also had former guest in it maybe Burke uh and also it had B Norwood who was the lead in American television.

[8:26] Meghan: So that was fun. Uh it was very short. It was only about 70 minutes. So I definitely wanted to see more, especially since it was like such a a big cast uh and everyone seemed was really interesting and I just wanted to know more about them.

[8:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh so it kind of got into like the different relationships of the folks in the house, and they had these fun, like tell-all photo booths uh scenes where the the actors or the people would go into the the secret booth and then they'd ask these like really probing questions about kind of what it means to be trans or like talk shit about the other housemates.

[9:05] Meghan: Um you know it it overall got to like how problematic these series can be, how invasive they are, which felt like you know how the general world is super uh preoccupied with trans people and their bodies and like how things work.

[9:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so that felt really relevant. And then it was in three sections, and the second section focused on the two producers of the show, and you saw them like coming up with the idea for it and also looking at casting, and it was so gross.

[9:42] Meghan: And were those characters supposed to be trans?

[9:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I no, the characters I think were cis white women that were lesbian, lesbian cis white women. Um, and B um B Norwood was one of them.

[9:55] Meghan: And uh yeah, so it got very, you know, exploitative, and they were like basically like having sex with each other while they were like being so happy about how diverse they were making this show, uh, and like fitting tropes of people together in.

[10:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um that felt really gross. Uh and then the third act was um like a 20-year reunion of the show, and oh wow, the folks coming back together, and you found out that like they were very uh tied into their contracts, like they were all early 20s when they signed up to do this, and then by the end, you know, they're 20 years old or whatever, and you know they're like, none of us want to be here, but we signed these contracts when we were young, like we're like obligated.

[10:43] Meghan: Uh, so I think it's definitely dealing with some like really big strong themes that I'm interested in. But yeah, I just I I want to see more. I want to see like uh at least a 90 minute version of this play.

[10:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah. And you've seen Ty's work before. Do you feel like this was like very different for Ty, or is kind of in the same vein of like themes that they explore?

[11:04] Meghan: The only other show of Ty's I've seen was a G Jack on Turtle Island, which was totally different.

[11:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That was very focused on uh like indigenous storytelling.

[11:14] Meghan: There were all these like Jim Henson puppets were gorgeous, uh, and this was very, very different.

[11:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um it was it's a comedy, so there's lots of laughs in it.

[11:24] Meghan: Uh, but also, you know, you really love these characters.

[11:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, so it's always incredible to see a full cast of trans folks on stage.

[11:33] Meghan: So uh that was really exciting.

[11:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's awesome. And then I'm so jealous. I I didn't get to see this, but also that I didn't get to see Roger's show because I um everything I see that Roger does, I love as we discussed on a previous episode.

[11:48] Meghan: But how how was that production?

[11:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh so this was Hide and Hide by Roger Q. Mason, directed by Eve Boylan, and dramaturgy by Gavin Trinidad. Uh, and this was only a two-person cast with a former guest, Ayla Sullivan and Han von Skyver, which Meghan, I think you would be a little bit preoccupied with if you had gotten to see this show.

[12:13] Meghan: I think you're right based on the photos I've seen.

[12:16] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes, they were both very beautiful people.

[12:20] Meghan: Uh again, it felt like such a unique story. It was um Ayla played like a Filipino immigrant uh in California, and they were trying to get played the count the character's name was Constanza, and she was trying to get um basically a green card and to find a husband so she can think she could stay in the country.

[12:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh and this was during the 1980s.

[12:48] Meghan: So again, just like not a story you hear very often.

[12:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And she happens to like cross paths with this character, Billy, who is the character is written as a cis gay white man, and he is running away from a conversion camp from Texas, and the two of them cross paths.

[13:09] Meghan: Um there's kind of this character named Ricky that both of them play together.

[13:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um they all play multiple characters. I think uh Ayla especially, I felt like played like 25 characters, and they're such an incredible actor.

[13:22] Meghan: Um yeah, like in the same scene together, there was a there's a really funny bit in the first time this kind of happened where the the actor, the actor that played Billy is white and was like, Oh, let me play, you know, your your auntie, and Ayla was like, Absolutely not, sit down.

[13:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um and so Ayla like played both of those roles.

[13:43] Meghan: That was great. So there's a a lawyer character, Ricky, who is also Filipino and you know has this power as a lawyer, and uh Constanza goes to him to try and like get help finding a husband, you know, finding legal status in the in the States, and Constanza finds out that like he is matchmaking women, immigrant women with men with gay men, uh through his firm to like give the gay men beards and also like to get you know green cards.

[14:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, wow.

[14:19] Meghan: Uh so that was really fascinating. But he's very silent.

[14:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, but he's like very abusive to to both him and Billy because he's like sleeping with Billy and like uh it was yeah, just such a fascinating story and um an amazing acting vehicle for both of them.

[14:37] Luci DeVoy: And they're the it's you just feel how trapped they are in both of their circumstances, like these two characters who you I think we never see put together in a way like this, and they're both just trapped by the norms of the society and the legal implications of the time period that still feel very relevant today.

[14:57] Luci DeVoy: Uh and of course it's written beautifully by Roger and really well directed. I think it was this was a longer piece, and I think with all the characters they were playing and all the different locations it was in, Eve Boylan did just such a fantastic job of making things very clear and dynamic to watch too. So it was it was really great.

[15:17] Luci DeVoy: I'm always impressed by um folks that are directing something for like one performance. Yeah, anytime it's like well put together, like, oh my gosh, this is your first and last show. Like this is incredible. Um same question for this. Having seen Roger's work before, do you feel like this was like you could tell this was a Roger show?

[15:37] Luci DeVoy: I think after seeing Lavender Men, I was like, Oh yes, this feels like a little more equivalent to that. Um, but I just I just think Roger's such an incredible writer and they're they're so versatile and had and has such great breadth within their writing. So but yeah, it's a it's a beautiful show, really looking at, you know, our country and um the harm that we do to our citizens and not citizens. Um yeah, so I loved it. It was it was wonderful. I hope it gets produced somewhere soon.

[16:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I hope so too.

[16:11] Luci DeVoy: And then the uh the final production that you saw, the only one I saw was the um night of monologues. It's called Overheard. It was 15 different monologues that were commissioned by the festival, and the evening was directed by El Morgan, and it was uh dramaturg by George. Uh so George Stress, who is the uh kind of overall mastermind behind the festival.

[16:36] Luci DeVoy: This this evening was I have I can't even tell you the last time I saw like a monologue evening. Maybe like once ever. Yeah, it's not like a a format that I'm not used to. Um, but they had an incredible group of performers, and I found myself after the first round. I don't know how you feel, like I was so excited to see what they would do next because each performance was so distinct.

[17:00] Luci DeVoy: So El Morgan performed and the other performers were um Basit, Bianca Lee, Evie Schuckman, and Yannick Robin Eke.

[17:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And you told me as we sat down how you knew Basit.

[17:14] Luci DeVoy: Yes. Like, oh my gosh. Uh they are in a speaking of reality show, um a reality series called You're the One, that I've only watched their season because it was kind of the same. It was like everyone was thrown into a house together. Um, they had all taking all these like matchmaking tests beforehand, and then they were all paired with a soulmate in the house, and their job was to figure out who the everyone's soulmate was.

[17:42] Luci DeVoy: Uh, and they were all bisexual, so it was just queer bisexual chaos of everyone being with everyone. I made a spreadsheet of who of who could be together because they could like make a guess every episode of who they thought they should be with, and so like process of but they it was just like overall the group had to decide, and then you either said they either told you if it was right or wrong.

[18:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I know you've been you've been trying to get me to watch it.

[18:18] Luci DeVoy: I but now I need to know before I watch it like is Basit okay?

[18:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I think so. I doubt any of them are still together.

[18:26] Luci DeVoy: It was just, you know, they it's for the money.

[18:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, exactly.

[18:32] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, because they if they got it right, they all got I think ten thousand dollars each or something. Um but if they got it wrong, no one got money. So it was really just about like oh okay finding the person. Just trying to get that cash. And there's many seasons of this show, but this was the only one that was like super queer.

[18:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Okay.

[18:52] Luci DeVoy: Well, then that's the only one I'll ever watch if I watch it.

[18:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, exactly. And I think I think we paid for it because I stop. We watched the first episode and I was like, I'm obsessed with this, and then we paid to get the rest of it, but I think it's available now on Netflix or something.

[19:07] Luci DeVoy: This is how much we love queer trash. We're willing to put down real dollars too.

[19:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes. Plus, I saw the spreadsheet potential and I was very excited.

[19:17] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, like this is how I want to spend an afternoon.

[19:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[19:21] Luci DeVoy: So anyway, yes, we saw the seat.

[19:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes, we saw the seat.

[19:26] Luci DeVoy: Um, it was really exciting too, because a few of the monologues were also by uh former guests. So Azure D. Osborne Lee had written a monologue, as well as Lady Dane Figaroa Didi. And uh very recent guests, Victor I Casares wrote one too.

[19:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And it was I had like, I'm you know, I'm a follow-along on the songs type of person in the playbill. So I had the the monologue list up, and uh it was just really cool to see the the connection because Victor's was the one about like pizza, and it just felt very much in the vein of their writing.

[20:02] Luci DeVoy: Um and even Azure's, like, I feel like it's been a minute since I saw any of Azure's work, but the tree monologue where they're talking about saving the tree and kind of connecting like a younger person connecting with an elder, which I feel like is something we've seen in in Azure's work before.

[20:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So it was yeah, it was like these fun little like tasty moments from writers that we already love, and I that was so special.

[20:28] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, I love the one that Bianca Lee did the first time. Uh it's called Orla, but she also wrote it uh and focused on like aging and how um you know women are seen as they go through their life stages. I thought that was really beautiful.

[20:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then when I saw that she actually wrote it too, that was exciting.

[20:47] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, that was an awesome one. Another cool thing about this evening is that Broadway Licensing is going to publish and license a monologue, and then the monologue uh profits are gonna go back to BTV. And so many of these were like I I'm I'm not an actor, I'm not someone who watches auditions, but I'm sure that like um sis said in in our interview, like everyone's trying to find like that monologue that's gonna be different than everybody else's, and there's so much cool potential here with these monologues.

[21:19] Luci DeVoy: I just finished the book Severance by Ming La, and uh she's Chinese and the character the main character is Chinese, and at the end it talks about how she washes her rice and her mother taught her how to do that, and I'm like, I know this now.

[21:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[21:34] Luci DeVoy: Um there's a really beautiful monologue about washing rice and being very contemplative while you 'cause the in the monologue she's like you did take uh twenty minutes or something, eighteen minutes to wash your rice. Do not do, so I felt bad about that as I was watching it.

[21:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I do not wash rice either, but now I will start.

[21:52] Luci DeVoy: Yep, literally this week. First time I think I've washed rice ever. Thanks to that monologue.

[22:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Thank you for making us better cooks.

[22:02] Luci DeVoy: Yeah. Better, healthier cooks or cleaner cooks.

[22:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't know.

[22:07] Luci DeVoy: She gives like in the monologue too, the the performer was talking about like the dust on the rice. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've been doing this wrong for so long.

[22:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I mean so much rice dust.

[22:16] Luci DeVoy: Yeah. And I was remembering what George said about how a lot of the work they commissioned or or selected for the festival didn't necessarily have to do with people being trans. And I felt that a lot through this uh through this evening that a lot of the material, uh, even though it was written for and by trans folks, like it didn't it didn't necessarily feel like it had to be. But because it was with that in mind, I think it's ex it's extra special and beautiful.

[22:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, agreed.

[22:46] Luci DeVoy: Then George was kind enough to um have us at the closing party and it was it was great. We got to meet a lot of former guests uh in person and it's clear that this festival is created like a really happy place for the community and um everyone was like so excited about you know, well just wait till next year, what's gonna be next for BTV.

[23:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So we're definitely excited to wait and see.

[23:12] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, I can't wait to continue supporting their work and just go into as much as I can. And I'll say it again, still so impressed they pulled this off in a year.

[23:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, definitely. You got to see a show uh recently. Do you do you want to talk about that?

[23:28] Luci DeVoy: Yeah. So I saw Where the Mountain Meets the Sea yesterday at the time of the recording. Um it is the Manhattan Theater Club off Broadway show at City Center. Um and this was the case of did not know this was queer at all. And surprise it's very queer. Um I'm looking at the press blurb right now, and there is no hint.

[23:53] Luci DeVoy: So it's it's interesting because it is such a big part of the show. Um that it wasn't included. I don't think it's necessary to know it before going in, but you know, it would have been made it more exciting for me. Uh so I saw this actually as a part of a teacher workshop. So I got to do an educator workshop before, which I really enjoyed, and then went to see the show.

[24:15] Luci DeVoy: And um it was just a really beautiful, surprising production that I would highly recommend. It's only um 80 minutes long, and it's basically two side by side monologues, one by a father, one by a son, and with um music from the Beng Sins that either underscores or cuts into the story.

[24:38] Luci DeVoy: Um so the way I described it yesterday to uh when I was telling my wife about the show was it's basically like black immigrant man telephone wire for an hour and ten minutes like telephone wire like the fun home song or something.

[24:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, like the fun home song.

[24:57] Luci DeVoy: Got it. That's that's what this show is because it's like an hour or so of like these two characters kind of on their own paths and never being able to connect in the way that they really want to, even though they both want it very strongly, but they can't express it.

[25:12] Luci DeVoy: Um, and the story is the the monologue from the father is his trip from Haiti to the US, and then a cross-country drive that he takes from um Florida to LA with his wife when she is pregnant with the son. And then the monologue from the son is him making the drive from LA to Florida to pick up his dad's ashes that he's going to take back from to Haiti.

[25:40] Luci DeVoy: And so they're stopping in the same towns, and um the son is traveling at one point with by himself, then at one point with uh this kind of like random gay man that he met who turns out to be like very like almost a fatherly figure to him for a while, and then he travels with a lover that he finds along the way.

[26:00] Luci DeVoy: So it's like interesting to see him go through those relationships. Um and I at first I was a little like this is very much like the story of these two black men, like why are the Bengsons doing the music? But then you find out in the um in the story that the Haitian man, the dad, is very like grounded by folk music, and so they they show how like there's similarities between Haitian folk music and American folk music, and the whole reason he takes this trip is because he wants to find more like folk music in America.

[26:33] Luci DeVoy: And so he's experiencing that and the son's kind of like rebelling against it but still experiencing it. Um I don't know if I'm doing a great job describing it, but it's very it's very much like memory play. You know, not a lot of things happen in a concrete fashion but the yeah the like yearning and longing to connect is like so devastating and beautiful.

[26:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so definitely recommend there's the $30 tickets from MTC and I I think it's pretty available. It it actually opens on November second and then um performances continue through I think the end of November, yes.

[27:11] Meghan: Who wrote the script?

[27:13] Luci DeVoy: So it's by Jeff Augustin who is a Haitian playwright. And he also wrote The Last Tiger in Haiti a little children dream of God. He translated Our Town into Haitian Creole for a production Miami which sounds amazing. So I I don't think this is from lived experience but it definitely seems to draw from um maybe people in his life that he knew but it's really really well done.

[27:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That sounds great.

[27:40] Luci DeVoy: So this has been like a weekend of surprisingly beautiful shows because on Friday we saw uh I wanna fuck like Romeo and Juliet at 59 East 59.

[27:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And Friday nights are tough, right?

[27:52] Luci DeVoy: Yeah I don't think they used to be but I was pretty exhausted on the way to this show and I like chugged a nice coffee. I was saying we all compared when we drank coffee before because we went with a couple friends and and I I have to say I was like a little, I was like, oh, I wish I had just be able to go home tonight. I like wasn't super into seeing a show.

[28:14] Luci DeVoy: And this totally turned the night around for me. It was so delightful. It's by Andrew Racone and directed by Jesse Ju. And this was only their um second performance ever, which is incredible to me.

[28:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mind blowing.

[28:31] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, it was. Um I knew we were seeing it early on because it it opens uh I believe it opens today when we're recording. But um wow, there are so many wonderful things to say about this production. And like you said, Harold, I was just like almost like kicking myself on the way out. Like, why why was I not more excited about this? Why was and it's not that I wasn't excited, I was just tired.

[28:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think I I've got a little too judgy about like small venue.

[29:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You know, it's not gonna be like a fully realized uh thing yet. You know, you're kind of seeing something in progress, but wow, I was wrong. This was like a fully put together, incredible production of this show. Yeah, it's uh it's from the New Light Theater Project, uh produced this, and it has a cast of five. They were all so incredible. Um just amazing comedic chops, amazing timing. Uh also very moving emotional um actors as well. Um so just super impressed with like the range and the skill of everyone in this cast. Uh I definitely have to shout out the the actor that played Betty.

[29:46] Meghan: Oh yes.

[29:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh Elizabeth Ramos, who this this is what I think of as queer. Like her character was queer, but also in the show, she realized she was queer and her whole life just like exploded and her mind was blown open. Uh and she just did that. This actress handled that so well, and she had us like laughing and crying, like throughout the whole show.

[30:11] Meghan: Oh yeah.

[30:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I would say, like, especially the space is so small. Right. I think the audience is only like maybe 50 people. And I feel like comedy in a small space like that, but they were getting like genuine full house like belly laughs from everyone. And it's you could see the like comedic connection with the cast and um the writing, like to be able to take us from that like laughing out loud place to like these really intimate, like genuine relationship moments. Um, yeah, really impressed with the playwright uh for the show. And we've talked about uh kind of the synopsis of the show in the in the last episode about theater, but uh kind of an overview is that Cupid has become very embittered by the world because of course she has uh is a Latinx woman god, and she's like, I'm quitting this, I will leave the the mortal coil behind to their own devices.

[31:11] Meghan: And um St. Valentine, who was a previous lover of Cupids, is like, absolutely not, I love you. Please just give me like this last chance to prove to you Earth is and humans are worth sticking around for.

[31:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And along the way, they find a dental hygienist, um Betty who uh befriends Benny, and the two of them are kind of like exploring this their new uh queerness, freedom from relationships, um, and a little chaos follows to get them back together.

[32:02] Meghan: Yeah.

[32:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, the Betty, so I guess it's okay to spoil things. Even like going to shows that we know are queer. We were still surprised by the queer elements of the show, which is so fun.

[32:14] Meghan: Well, also I think from the image I saw, like I was worried this was gonna be a gay show, Capital G, Capital S show.

[32:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes, you know. Uh the the show art has you know two presenting cis gay men, and I'm like, oh, I don't know. But it I feel like the show was very queer in the whole sense, just in like there were women together, there were men together, everyone kissed everyone, I think.

[32:40] Meghan: Yeah, I would say Valentine and Cupid's relationship is very like interesting too, and it's yeah, it everyone had some kind of queer element to their character, I would say.

[32:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it was really beautiful to see. It felt very like polyamorous as well, like um, there's a lot of conversion happening. Everyone was crushing on Betty.

[33:01] Meghan: Yeah.

[33:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like I haven't seen a comedy in so long that I've enjoyed this much. And I think also, uh, I think shout out to the director that the nothing went on too long. I think that really annoys me in comedy. Like a joke goes on either like too long in the moment or just keeps coming back too many times, and like this just had the perfect amount of references and like comedic timing that it yeah, it worked really well.

[33:29] Meghan: And also, like kudos to the director for using the limitations of the space and design possibilities to like even put even more comedy into it. I felt like the the way that they had to be creative about the staging. Um, like Betty being realizing that the stage hands were coming out and no one else did, like that killed me every time.

[33:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It was beautiful. I really want the actor that played Valentine too. Um he reminded me a lot of like a Robin Williams type uh where just the comedic moments were so kind of absurd and over the top, but in such a clean way that it felt very real. I feel like that's when the within the first five minutes we were won over when he walked out a door and just like struck a pose and we're like, oh, this is gonna be great.

[34:17] Meghan: Absolutely. Sadly, this show will be done by the time this episode comes out, but I have a a feelingslash hope that this is not the last that we've seen of this show, and hopefully it'll get I would love to see it get a full blown out, like give them all the money they need to do this production like production.

[34:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Absolutely. Um definitely be following this playwright and director and these actors for their next projects as well.

[34:43] Meghan: Agreed. So so glad we got to see that, and um I'm gonna adjust my expectations for small productions. Which leads very well into our next show discussion.

[34:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Finally. Woof. We have been waiting for this discussion. I saw this show almost two weeks ago.

[35:05] Meghan: Oh wow.

[35:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, we are diving into the trepid waters of 1776.

[35:12] Meghan: Wow.

[35:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then you just saw this uh about a week ago.

[35:12] Meghan: About a week ago. And I was thinking back to when we shouted it out on our um on our like fall preview podcast, and we were both like, I don't know if this is queer or has a bunch of queer seeming people in it. We don't know what this is, and wow, did we not know?

[35:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Now we probably didn't know. And when I saw it, all the the interview with Sarah hadn't come out yet. Um, so there was very little like discussion of it so far. Uh but I I I want to talk first about the production itself because I have we I know we both have a lot to say about it, and then we can talk a little bit more about like the drama that's happened outside of the show.

[35:55] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[35:56] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Should we start with like the good? Because I don't want to like completely ignore the the good things that we had uh discuss. Um I there's a lot of incredible performances in this show. There's so many damn people in this show. It it I like there's not a single like miss, I feel like in terms of the cast is really giving it their all doing what they can with the show and some definite standouts, right?

[36:25] Meghan: Like we were talking about Caroline Carmelo and that look, the green coat, the giant red hair just striding around with a walking cane. Like I would listen to anything that woman said.

[36:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Right. I was having a lot of uh feelings whenever Caroline Carmelo was on the stage strutting around. Um it gave me some very strong like Madame Jerry vibes, but like not as dark. Uh and that that's a root for me. Um, anyway, but yeah, her performance is incredible. I thought her song was actually the one that worked the most in the show.

[37:01] Meghan: Cool, cool, considerate men, the act two opener.

[37:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh just because I think I have a lot of issues with how with the directional choices, but I think showing a white woman being not only complicit, but like actively engaged in these really harmful tactics that conservatives use felt really relevant to me and something that we still don't see a lot uh in theater. So I thought that worked really.

[37:29] Meghan: She made just such a great villain.

[37:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then and then that felt relevant, and also she had that her like money note at the end that had, you know, was incredible.

[37:40] Meghan: Amazing.

[37:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Just striding around.

[37:43] Meghan: No, I agree. I I felt like that was one of those songs that made the most sense the way that it was put together. Um and made me think about like this is still something we see today. White women are still very much uh in control of can of conservative politics, even if it doesn't appear to be that way.

[38:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so yeah. Just thinking that how you know over 50% of white women voted for Trump, like this felt very accurate.

[38:08] Meghan: Yeah. Other performances, uh I feel like that role of John Adams is really hard role. Um because you're kind of like not really a hero. You're just kind of like the main character. And I felt like that actor did what she could with the role.

[38:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. I don't know if I actually like that role, but at the end I was like, it it doesn't do the whoever's performing that role a lot of favors because there aren't a lot of like standout, like, wow, incredible moments, you know.

[38:39] Meghan: Agreed. And I couldn't, you know, this is we both our first time seeing this show too. So uh a lot of me was wondering, like, oh, is this because it's how it's cast or the direction, or like, is this how the show is usually done. I felt like I didn't feel like the score was very well suited for Christy Lucas Perry's voice.

[38:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh, even though you can tell she has uh an amazing voice, it just yeah, like you said, it didn't do her any favors. It kind of reminded me of some things we talked about with uh the um with company and the performance there of like the rearrangements for Bobby. It's some of these rearrangements for the actors in this production were amazing, and some you could tell, like, yeah, you couldn't really figure out how to make that work, could you?

[39:24] Meghan: Uh another performance that I was like blown away by, and we'll talk about why we're worried about it in a bit, was uh Shauna Hamick, who was uh Richard Henry Lee, so the Lee from Virginia. Her song like blew me out of the water.

[39:42] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um and I can just tell like her voice is incredible, you know.

[39:47] Meghan: So I I would love to see her in something else in the future.

[39:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Definitely. Uh I thought the he plays the violin worked really well. I think I sensed a pattern and what I felt worked well was all the white women. Uh which I I think is because it's written for white people, and uh it just felt we we'll get into it more, but I think those were the moments that worked. Plus, this is the song how the song is usually done. It's usually done by like a pretty femme cis white woman, right?

[40:19] Meghan: So that wasn't very different.

[40:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. I did not like that moment, but Oh, interesting. I I thought the staging of it was strange. Um I I think more of my problems though are with the actual book and writing of the show.

[40:36] Meghan: So I I don't know if I can necessarily say it's this production. I just think that song is strange and weird and uh doesn't make sense as an act break song, and um why even introduce introduce Martha Jefferson's character if that's all she's gonna do is sing this like one off song about how like good at fucking Jefferson is. I don't know.

[40:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's there's a lot of dick jokes that I have problems with, but that's that's a whole that's further into the conversation. I will say I had a very hard time following the plot, especially of the first act of what the hell was happening because I my mind was so preoccupied with what the hell was happening with this production.

[41:21] Meghan: Um that I was like, I have no idea what's what the plot is.

[41:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I think things like that were totally lost on me. I yeah, if it wasn't for the yay and nay projections, I'd have no idea what was going on, that's for sure.

[41:35] Meghan: Um I did feel like the pr the projections were another thing that worked for me, like they were uh not during the egg song, but during the um during the like actual Congress scenes, it was helpful to see like okay, this state's on this side, this state's on that side, this is how we're breaking it down.

[41:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so logistically, that was probably the only part of the set that I really like liked. Um I liked the costuming, I thought it was simple, and that was all they really needed to do.

[42:03] Meghan: And they all looked incredible, yeah.

[42:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: They looked hot. My favorite part when they were all on stage dancing and or just looking amazing and not speaking. Those were the parts that just be quiet and look good.

[42:20] Meghan: Oh because it was so exciting.

[42:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It was so exciting to see a cast that looked like that. That's very diverse, you know.

[42:27] Meghan: Um, women, non-binary, and trans people, although I want to get into that too.

[42:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um that was very exciting for me to see because how often do we see casts like that? I don't uh especially on Broadway. I don't think I think that part.

[42:41] Meghan: Not at that scale, especially.

[42:42] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um yeah, and I think the movement um during some of the earlier scenes I liked because it was kind of like the it was more in that like Stephen Hoggett world of like movement not being really choreography, but mimicking like we're all frustrated at this Congress thing.

[42:57] Meghan: So our movement's more like us going through the room and pounding on tables and you know it's more more like that type of choreo, which I I liked at least when I noticed it at the beginning.

[43:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah. I think that's the end of my likes.

[43:13] Meghan: Oh, I liked I this was something I did not enjoy during the show because I didn't know if it was real or not, but Elizabeth A. Davis uh cast a very pregnant actor, I think is very cool. I wasn't sure if it was real when we were watching it, and I was like questioning why this type of representation was needed in this show, if it was fake, but now that I know it's real, I'm like that's cool.

[43:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Props to them. They are supporting an actor who might have like more health conditions than other actors, or like you know, need to leave the production suddenly, and that is like a liability on the production. So I think that's a cool move for them.

[43:53] Meghan: Yeah, I agree. I was equally confused. Like as soon as she walked on stage, I'm like, why? Because I mean, everyone carries differently, but the way she was carrying, I thought it was like a fake stomach on so I was just like, what are you trying to make me think about Jefferson? I don't like this. Um, but yeah, as soon as I realized that she was actually pregnant, I'm like, oh nice. I'm glad you just kept her in the show. I thought it was like, look how diverse we are. We even represent pregnant people as if pregnant people are an oppressed group. And that didn't sit well with me. I thought it was a gross metaphor that Jefferson is giving birth to the country, and I was mad about that. So with like the egg song and everything coming, I was like, oh come on.

[44:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, but yeah, I have a feeling she's not gonna make it through the run though.

[44:46] Meghan: Yeah, pregnant she is. I mean, kudos to this actor because she's like, she's moving, she's dancing through the whole show.

[44:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: She plays the violin.

[44:55] Meghan: She does play the violin very well. I was as soon as she started, I'm like, oh, that is not fake.

[45:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. I see why you needed to keep this woman in this role when she was pregnant because who else is gonna do this role? I guess she was uh understudy for the lead in uh once, which makes a lot of sense.

[45:13] Meghan: Okay. We I know we both really enjoyed um Sarah.

[45:16] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, Sarah Porkalob, incredible performer. Uh we had seen them before in uh the Thelma and Louise Dyke remix uh at Namps, and they're a force.

[45:30] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[45:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We'll talk a lot more about them.

[45:32] Meghan: Yes.

[45:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Shortly here.

[45:34] Meghan: Yeah.

[45:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I want to get into the direction of this show and yeah, let's do it. Thoughts we have on it.

[45:41] Meghan: I kept wondering why this show felt like a community theater production through the show.

[45:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think it's a few things. I think it's the for me, it was like the style of the acting and the scene work and just how over the top musical theater it was. And I think that's also why I had such a hard time following the plot because I'm like, I can't understand what they're saying. And it clearly wasn't the actors. The actors are very talented. It was like how they were directed to be, yeah, and the style of the piece. And when they when that kept going on through the first couple scenes, I was like, I can't believe the whole show is gonna be like this. This is gonna be rough.

[46:22] Meghan: Yeah. I mean, the show itself feels dated, but then like the actual direction, I feel like just enhanced that. Um, including so many of the the fourth wall breaks that were just so unnecessary, and like we get it. We understand the points you're trying to make here. You don't need to turn to the audience and deliver the line. The like our the future Americans will never forgive us. Like would have been more impactful if it wasn't like wink wink, we know what we're doing, and um yeah, it felt like you say, it felt very like high school production.

[47:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't know.

[47:02] Meghan: Yeah, and I think also having the cast be so young, it playing these supposedly older men character people who really existed, and then it felt a little like uh community theater production where there are not enough boys, so we just cast whoever we had.

[47:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I love that.

[47:20] Meghan: Who happened to be really talented, but that was the choice, and then like Caroline Carmelo was like the only one, her and uh like two other older women who were more like sideline roles, yeah.

[47:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[47:35] Meghan: So it wasn't diverse in that sense, really.

[47:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: No, I mean I wouldn't mind yeah, I would have appreciated an older cast, but that wasn't you know one of my biggest issues.

[47:46] Meghan: Um not the top of the list, no, yeah.

[47:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And going back to like the performative aspect of what you named with like the looking out into the audience, like so many of the gestures of the show felt so performative, right?

[48:00] Meghan: We'll get into the land acknowledgement.

[48:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, yeah, we're gonna have a special guest.

[48:04] Meghan: It just it felt like it was like screaming, like, look how diverse we are. Like, look what we have done.

[48:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Totally. And I feel like so much of like having seen this show for the first time, so much of like what I dislike about this show as an audience today is like how aggressively heterosexual like the the show, you know. Like there's so many like dick jokes, and there's so many like I'm gonna go home and fuck my wife jokes. I don't know, stuff like that. And it the way that it was like so performative to the audience was like, see what we did, it's women saying this. You know, it's like it why though? You know, it comes back to the question we ask about every show, why do it at all?

[48:46] Meghan: Like I hearing those jokes from people who are not cis men didn't make them any less harmful. Like, what's the effect they're looking for? Is it comedy? Because it that's not what hit me, you know. And I and I go back going back to the style of how it was acting too, like if they had just done the lines in a more naturalistic, realistic way, like I think it just would have worked so much better and hit harder to have like but let the audience I think we un we say that we uh overestimate our audiences with when terms of like questioning queerness and gender, but I'm like this we didn't need. We could trust our audiences a little more here.

[49:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, especially when your audience is mostly people who like saw the original production. I don't know.

[49:34] Meghan: We could get into that. This was such a production made for white people, like to congratulate for white people to feel good about coming to see this show and being like, I saw the diverse production of 1776. It's your old favorite, but you don't have to feel guilty about it now.

[49:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[49:52] Meghan: Because it because you don't have to shout out like, Look, it's a it's a Native American person in the cast because the pe or like an Asian person in the cast, because don't worry, the Asian people in the audience have seen that person and noticed them and appreciate that they're there.

[50:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[50:10] Meghan: It's I don't know. Do we want to talk about the audience a little more?

[50:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Sure, yeah.

[50:14] Meghan: Okay. So the audience that was there with me that night. It was I was there on a Tuesday night, first off, like Tuesday night in October, like tough night for theater. Um but it was it was very full, like uh from what I could see. Um and there were just like these like 1776 stands. Like all these like old white folks who were like singing along.

[50:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like during intermission, the main conversation happening around us was like, Oh, I forgot how much I liked that song.

[50:44] Meghan: I'm like, that's what we're talking about. Like So the takeaways were not the same. Um and I I don't even I don't even know if like a lot of it was registering for folks, like you know the um so the Lee's a Virginia song I shouted out that actress earlier and I thought I don't know if that song worked for me but I at least saw like what was being attempted there was like we know the Lee family is like terrible racist like power structure of the South and like we're we're showing you a lot of people who not didn't have that power like kind of spoofing it you know so I was like okay this is kind of campy I could see where this is trying to go um and I was like and this person is performing it incredibly and so like you know I'm kind of laughing along with her like buffoonery of of this family and I know we already talked about this but I'm like the people next to me are just laughing at a fat actor singing a song and yeah so this is another case of just things being harmful like putting out you're you're thinking maybe they're not thinking this I'm assuming the director is trying to do something along the spoofing because I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt but it's not how it was being registered by the vast majority of the people in the audience with me that night.

[52:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Agreed yeah it felt to me like we can only we will allow people of color and fat people and queer people and trans people on the stage but only if we can make them caricatures and like like lean in really hard.

[52:29] Meghan: Yeah to like stereotypes and almost it felt almost like minstrelcy at some points.

[52:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[52:35] Meghan: I felt that way too.

[52:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I I think this song especially felt really rough to me. And yeah, you could tell how talented the actor was in the performance, but just how they were directed to be this like really over the top, like Colonel Sanders Southern White Man, just uh it was very cringy.

[52:55] Meghan: Yeah.

[52:56] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Again, why why are we doing this?

[52:58] Meghan: That I I asked myself that after like every song.

[53:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I have a thing here on my notes, it just says, What the hell egg song?

[53:07] Meghan: Oh, those projections.

[53:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I and I guess if we want to start talking about Sarah's interview a little bit, like that was one of the many things. Like, why were the projections in the egg song like actual liberal triumph moments? And when Sarah said in the interview, like, imagine what that would have been like if they were showing like the storming of the capital on January 6th. Like that would have been chilling. And like I would have been like, wow, that was a powerful move there. Like, because you have these terrible conservative white men singing about the government they're gonna build, and then you see the current, you know, of what what it's wrought.

[53:46] Meghan: But that I don't know what they're trying to convince us happens in this country during that song.

[53:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it was just like at least if you're gonna do something like show the good and the bad, uh, it just felt so saturated.

[53:58] Meghan: Is that how you say that word?

[54:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh saccharin.

[54:01] Meghan: Saccharin. It felt so sacred.

[54:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, you know what it was. It's like when you go to Epcot and you go to the American Pavilion and you watch like the US president robots tell you about how great the country is.

[54:12] Meghan: Like, that's what that song was. And it felt, yeah, very antithetical to like what the show is saying too, about how these men who created the declaration of independence were just men, and they set us up for some failure.

[54:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So yeah. I wonder, do we want to bring in our special guest?

[54:34] Meghan: Yeah, if our special guest is ready, we would love to do that.

[54:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Sure. Our special guest this week is actually my partner, my fiance, Luci DeVoy. Luci used to work in producing with a couple different Broadway producing uh companies and now is studying to be a nurse, but still has a lot of theatrical knowledge and opinions. And also happens to be a Jibway and uh has a lot of feelings about this production because she saw it with me as well.

[55:07] Meghan: Yeah.

[55:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I wanted to ask you how you were feeling about like the land acknowledgement and like that opening moment uh with the indigenous actor.

[55:17] Luci DeVoy: As somebody who identifies as indigenous and who was really privileged enough to grow up with my language, my ceremonies, my um culture, and I grew up on an indigenous reservation intact. So anything that is kind of um rings false to some of the advocacy around um indigenous rights uh is always irksome to me because a lot of my family uh history has been spent fighting for um treaty rights and also for um acknowledgement from the US government, which is a whole nother podcast. But my point is I find it exceptionally irksome when things ring hollow. And so I have to caveat all of this by saying that however I feel about land acknowledgements, which I think is pretty clear now, um, they happen, and they happen in a lot of different not even theater houses, art houses.

Every time I walk into a zoo or I'm fully expecting them to be in my next gynecological appointment, like they're just gonna show up everywhere, and they're just gonna be something I find irksome, and another thing that is kind of um people who are in positions of power trying to placate the masses by doing the bare minimum, and so I think one of the things you can do as somebody again who is kind of in this position of privilege, having had exposure to all of these things that indigenous people are trying to reconnect with having a lot of restraint in what you want to put your energy towards. So a lot of what my energy is put towards is building community and supporting people who are actually looking to not commercialize or monetize on their search for indigenous.

Like I love that people want to reconnect with making regalia, but I don't want to just teach somebody so that they can make money, so you know it's complicated. So, again, a lot longer than I wanted to spend on how I feel about the land acknowledgements, they exist. So, what I found so if I'm being really honest insulting about this production was the lights go down, and Harold and I are sitting there, and we're actually really excited to see this show because I uh studied musical theater.

[58:05] Luci DeVoy: I have two master's degrees actually, one in performance and MFA, and so I hero just made a very like oh musical thing.

[58:14] Meghan: No, it's great.

[58:16] Luci DeVoy: So I've got this like very nerdy part of my brain that loves crusty ass old musicals.

[58:26] Meghan: Incredible.

[58:27] Luci DeVoy: Had you seen 1776 before?

[58:29] Luci DeVoy: So I had seen the revival of 1776 at the library that Harrow used to work at. So full circle for that.

[58:40] Luci DeVoy: And so again, having like a deep love for crusty ass old musicals, but I mean, in earnest, things that I know going in the book are a little problematic, but I want to see what people living now are doing with things that like rectifying our history is what I was interested in.

[59:01] Luci DeVoy: So, you know, Diane Paulus's work is hit or miss.

[59:05] Meghan: That's generous.

[59:08] Luci DeVoy: I think so, but you know, I also want to make sure that we're not always chastising people for trying something, like I think she definitely has intentions, and I think that's in generous.

[59:22] Luci DeVoy: Um, but you know, again, that's my opinion. I don't want to shit on somebody who's like out there trying something, and so I was kind of curious as to what she was going to do with this giant cast of people of the global majority and queer folk, and I think that knowing that this musical was problematic and knowing molasses and rum belonged in the show back when it was produced.

[59:49] Luci DeVoy: Yeah, so I thought there was a lot of opportunity missed. And what really soured this show from the very moment the lights went down was the land acknowledgement.

[59:59] Luci DeVoy: And let me explain why. With that whole opening caveat of what I said before about my feelings about a land acknowledgement, they do exist.

[1:00:09] Luci DeVoy: So the lights go down, and the land acknowledgement comes over the speaker. They're like, you know, we are on the land of the Lenape.

[1:00:19] Luci DeVoy: And even that in itself is a little problematic because we as Indigenous people don't claim land in this kind of like we don't claim territories in the same way that is like this westernized idea.

[1:00:38] Luci DeVoy: So there are even scholars that like have trouble saying, like, oh, these folks were here, and these folks were here, and they live communally, but they were here this time. You know, there's just it becomes this political thing that was meant to remind us that there are people here and that we are not were, but it has turned into this kind of placation of indigenous rights.

[1:01:07] Luci DeVoy: But what really irked me about this direction is that the announcement didn't just say, oh, this is the Wampanoag folk, this is the Lenape folk, this is the land of Manhattan. It was said by the actor in the show that self-identified as indigenous.

[1:01:30] Luci DeVoy: And in that moment, I remember thinking to myself, I cannot imagine that they did not take that into consideration when that poor actor was cast. And by all accounts, I cannot imagine that they did not have exceptional talents and exceptional skill to get to that level.

[1:01:55] Luci DeVoy: But the fact that they were still used to like further this idea, and I remember having that thought, and as the curtain opens, somebody walks onto stage. I believe it's the actor, it was John Adams, as far as I recollect, but I open to be corrected here.

[1:02:15] Luci DeVoy: So a character comes out on stage, and in the opening moments, you don't actually have any connection to that person or the character, but you know that somebody is just self-identified as indigenous.

[1:02:29] Luci DeVoy: And it wasn't that she had self-identified as indigenous, if anything, that is exceptionally exciting to see on stage for someone like me. It was the way that they used that actor that just left me really uncomfortable.

[1:02:47] Luci DeVoy: And I want to leave a lot of room for me not actively being a part of that conversation in the room. Maybe this actor didn't feel how I felt my opinion is just based as somebody who identifies as an indigenous person who lives in her indigenous and is a main identifier of my myself as a person.

[1:02:57] Luci DeVoy: And let me go back and just describe it in case you haven't seen the show what happens land acknowledgement goes off the main character John Adams walks out on stage and she walks out on stage and has this beaded medallion and there are a lot of signifying factors that I like clocked about that in particular as far as like the artwork on it but that you know is very specific to me so that might not have meant everything to anyone in the audience and the person who was self-identified as indigenous had like been the only person on stage and John Adams character like slips the medallion over this indigenous person's neck and the play begins and it's just like seeing that on stage was just so patronizing.

[1:04:08] Luci DeVoy: I was just so offended by that that it actually stayed with me I want to say through the first like 15 minutes. I was just sitting there so pissed off and so annoyed you have so many mixed emotions and I think one of the main things I was sitting there trying to rectify I was like okay I'm bringing a little bit of like indignant kind of like prejudice into this like maybe they were trying to do something and I'm trying to like figure it out artistically so I think maybe that's why I sat there for a few minutes and was like trying to think about what that symbolized and maybe I had missed it so I gave it a white ass berth before I was just sitting there pissed about it.

[1:04:49] Luci DeVoy: Um, because two things hit me at the same time. One, I knew the moment I walked in that house that the show was not for me. Whether it's the marketing or whether it's the show itself, or whether it's how people have been invited into this space, whether it's the people that are producing the show, there are spaces that I absolutely know as a commercial producer, I was welcome. And there are spaces as an audience member I know that I am absolutely not welcome.

[1:05:23] Luci DeVoy: And Broadway is becoming less and less welcoming for people of the global majority who are in our age range, and some houses you just walk into and you know. So again, I'm sitting there for three or four minutes trying to like rectify all this, and I think what I took away is that here is a show about the declaration of independence, and the whole premise of the show, the whole premise of this crusty ass musical is that we are coming together to declare independence, to declare our individuality, to declare our freedom from this entity, and we disagree because who we think is included and who we think is covered under these protections, right?

[1:06:16] Luci DeVoy: And that is kind of the antithesis, and it's supposed to make you think about like okay, so all of these queer, non-binary trans folks on stage, most if not all are people of the global minority or majority, people of the global majority who were not considered in the Declaration of Independence. That's supposed to be the whole like deep think, right?

[1:06:38] Luci DeVoy: So, why would a show at its outset be so determined to placate a white audience that it's vehemently stopping a show? It didn't even have its original overture to do this performative thing, and also take Miss Simpson, who is the indigenous actress, and force her into this situation where she is, on essence, put on display to be like, hey, nice white folks who might be uncomfortable by this musical. Don't worry about your discomfort over my people. Because we fixed that right here.

[1:07:22] Luci DeVoy: Oof. But we have to do land acknowledgements because it's real trendy right now. And um, we want people to think that we're educating the masses.

[1:07:31] Meghan: Yep.

[1:07:31] Luci DeVoy: I told Harrow this, but the um the white man sitting next to me, the older man, adds the scene that you're describing on is unfolding. He said out loud to his wife, oh well, this is nice, isn't it?

[1:07:46] Meghan: Absolutely.

[1:07:47] Luci DeVoy: And so uh, and again, this is a whole podcast, and I actually had a moment earlier where I was thinking like, it's always hard to talk about shows like this because you have so many creative forces, and I don't want to discard the work of the actors who have the lived experiences that I don't, including Miss Simpsons. And again, I don't want to assume what the conversation was in the room.

[1:08:14] Luci DeVoy: I am merely gathering information from what has already been expressed in, shall we say, multiple articles by certain cast members that said that there was respect in the room, but maybe there wasn't consideration. And isn't that the crux of it all? In that if you're gonna have directors who have a single lived experience, or maybe a lived experience and some understanding, what does that say about who you are actually changing theater for?

[1:08:51] Luci DeVoy: Like if anything was supposed to come out of 2020, wasn't it to make theater more accessible for our generation? And yeah, this cast are all our age, but like, did these directors consider anything they had to say? Because I know that when I was reading the Vulture article, I remember thinking to myself that they were just saying all of the things that were so frustrating about being in commercialized theater is that you have this hierarchy that just doesn't want systematic change, but they will hire you and they will hire you on stage, and they will hire you in these lower level positions to say, like, look, we're diversifying, we're uh making systematic change, we're doing land acknowledgements, look, we're hiring young folks, but those are not the voices that are actually being heard and being translated on stage, except for one out of every six shots, one out of every ten shots.

[1:09:51] Luci DeVoy: Um, and one of the interesting things that 1776 brings up is like people don't give up power willingly. Like nobody gives up power. Carolie Carmelo's character says nobody gives up power willingly.

[1:10:08] Luci DeVoy: And that's interesting you bring that up as like I we're talking about it, but I'm not directly putting together like the mirror of the content to the theater world. Yeah, we're experiencing it. It's like amplifying what we're all seeing happening in theater.

[1:10:23] Meghan: Absolutely.

[1:10:24] Luci DeVoy: And I can take that away again with this land acknowledgement being at the top of the show and just being like, this is just always a trickle-down effect, isn't it? And again, it's with this mixture of like, I'm so excited to see this indigenous person have a role on Broadway and have other guests that you've had on the show have um shows that are being seen and written and heard off Broadway and on Broadway, and I'm not begrudging these actors anything that they did or didn't do to get there because I don't think that they necessarily have the autonomy that they should in every decision, and that is really part of the prong.

[1:11:06] Luci DeVoy: But yeah, I just kind of wanted to bring that in because I think that if you talk to somebody who has a different uh lived experience as far as their racial identity or their identifying factors that are in the show, I think that they would have a different experience uh as well seeing themselves on stage, but that was purely my um experience as a queer indigenous person of size, and I was pissed.

[1:11:35] Luci DeVoy: I remember um when it broke for intermission, I turned to Harrow, and I am usually exceptionally quiet in in in Broadway houses because um I'm used to working commercially, so you don't say anything for like hours. And it turned to Harrow and I whispered, Oh my god, did they really just do that with no context? Are you fucking kidding me?

[1:11:59] Luci DeVoy: You can edit that out, but that's how I felt because it was almost like I was waiting for the satire of it, and then it just didn't come. That was my two cents, friends. I am an avid fan, and I'm just thankful to have the chance to just talk about my experience. And again, uh, this is just my experience. So I want to hold space for those folks who may have been really seen by that uh moment. It that is absolutely okay too.

[1:12:29] Meghan: Yeah, thank you, Luci.

[1:12:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We appreciate you coming on and sharing slot there.

[1:12:36] Meghan: I'm amazed that she was even able to sit through the first act after what she just shared with us.

[1:12:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I do want to talk about the queer and trans representation in this show. And I think it's wild that in Sarah's interview they say that it wasn't really a consideration of the production because this was also an exciting aspect of the show was like to see so many queer relationships.

[1:13:05] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:13:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Because the cast is all women, non-binary and trans people, like they're all in relationships with each other. I guess there's only like a couple romantic relationships, but that felt really unique and outstanding to me, especially between so many people of color too. And just that that wasn't a consideration in the creation of this show felt, oh, that hurts my feelings.

[1:13:30] Meghan: Uh, and it also feels irresponsible.

[1:13:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Feels like it was more work to ignore that conversation than to have that conversation.

[1:13:38] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:13:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I also I saw somewhere that the cast has no trans women in it. And that feels a little turfy to me to have, I don't think I realized that.

[1:13:50] Meghan: Yeah, to have a cast of women, non-binary and trans people and not include trans women, that feels off to me.

[1:13:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So is it only like trans men identifying folks in the cast?

[1:14:01] Meghan: I think so. I think it's all folks.

[1:14:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And that's problematic too.

[1:14:06] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:14:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's when it's like using umbrella terms is that's suspicious.

[1:14:20] Meghan: But I didn't do the homework to really look at every care every actor in the show.

[1:14:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I don't think there are.

[1:14:26] Meghan: Yeah, it does feel turf.

[1:14:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I think we need to talk about the molasses to rum song and Sarah and the interview.

[1:14:34] Meghan: I also felt like when we got to the molasses to rum song, it went from being just like choices I disagreed with to harmful. Um seeing the black actors transition into enslaved people at like an auction.

[1:14:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oof.

[1:14:51] Meghan: Uh and I know from the interview that they got consent from them to do that, but I just, but they were still asked the question and like the power dynamics there.

[1:15:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[1:15:02] Meghan: Are you gonna say no if every other actor is saying yes? Like what, yeah, it felt like it kind of defeated the purpose for me of like seeing these actors in these really empowered roles and then having just the black actors become enslaved people.

[1:15:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Felt like it, yeah, it totally went against like everything that they were doing.

[1:15:21] Meghan: And like none of the non-black people had to be in that position.

[1:15:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And yeah, and I think it distracts me from Sarah's performance, which wasn't, yeah, awesome. But um, yeah, so I think I disagree with them a little on that aspect from the interview. I don't know. What are your thoughts on the song?

[1:15:40] Meghan: Yeah, as soon as the black actors were transforming into the slave characters, having all of these thoughts of like, why are we treating these actors as props? You know, it's not clear to the audience that consent was given for that, right?

[1:15:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I, you know, I usually assume that I don't necessarily always assume that rooms are a safe space where everyone feels like they are giving consent. But I think what, and also just from a production standpoint, that's the only time in the whole show that any character becomes like another quote unquote character.

[1:16:09] Meghan: And it's like that's what we did it for.

[1:16:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, you know, it's like it maybe if that was a trope that was set up early on. I don't think there's any way this they could have done what they didn't and not be harmful. But if early on they had like set up like, oh okay, well, at this point, this some folks are gonna appear as a different character here and there, but no, it's like all of a sudden these characters that we've been following as founding fathers are transformed into these slave characters, and I just, yeah, it's upsetting because from the Sarah performance part too, because you kind of just, I don't know, I at some point I just like didn't even know what was happening on stage because I was just like couldn't stop thinking of like why is this happening?

[1:16:54] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:16:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um and not only why is this happening, how are people around me taking this in?

[1:16:59] Meghan: Absolutely.

[1:17:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I think people were really in it felt like people were really into it. I mean, the whole show, uh, I felt like the people around me were really enjoying it.

[1:17:08] Meghan: Yeah, and I heard people saying like at the end of the show, which is not much after this happens, like, wow, that was really powerful. You know, and at the end of the show, they show you the barrels that are revealed during um molasses to Rum. And I can only assume that that's what they're talking about, but that's sadly I think that was the intention.

[1:17:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And yeah, if you feel like you're just watching a different show than everybody else.

[1:17:34] Meghan: Yeah, it almost felt like trauma porn to me.

[1:17:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[1:17:38] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:17:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And just like reinforcing this idea that people of color, black people can only can't escape like these tropes. Uh, that, you know, even though we've let you be these roles on Broadway, we know that you're really just this is who you're allowed to be on stage.

[1:17:54] Meghan: Oh god.

[1:17:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And that's the note that you basically end on too.

[1:17:57] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:17:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oof. It was really rough. I felt uncomfortable and angry during that song, and I don't think in the way that the direction was meaning it to be.

[1:18:10] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[1:18:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And like you said, like before, there were things that were like upsetting, but this is where it really got to the point of like this production. By existing in this world, this production is doing more harm than good.

[1:18:25] Meghan: So yeah. But I do think I'm really grateful that Sarah said all these things in the interview. I think they're things that needed to be said that apply to so many commercial productions, not just this show.

[1:18:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[1:18:38] Meghan: And I find it a little ridiculous that people are angry at them for, you know, saying they only give 75% of their performance or saying just feeling uh egotistical and entitled, I don't think is what came across to me at all. And just being able, you know, I think actors are expected to feel so grateful that, right, yeah, that they are on Broadway, especially, you know, a queer Asian actor.

[1:19:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like, you should be so grateful.

[1:19:07] Meghan: You have like a, you're lucky you're here.

[1:19:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[1:19:13] Meghan: And I'm glad that they were not.

[1:19:16] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[1:19:16] Meghan: And I'm glad that this is, I want to see it even more, or you know, I wanna make the space for it to happen even more. Like, I feel like there is a trend towards people being less quiet about things that are, I feel like we've had that in a lot of interviews.

[1:19:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and I just am happy that also Vulture gave it such a big platform. I'm like, yes, normalize this, normalize calling out what's problematic about what you're doing, you know.

[1:19:46] Meghan: Yeah, and she did apologize later, you know, for sharing kind of the backstage information about the harm that was done about the affinity groups, and you know, I could see that too. So I don't know, I think there are many truths in what they said, and yes, it could, it was also could be harmful to their company and their trust within the ensemble, which I understand, but yeah, I'm glad those things are out there.

[1:20:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, same. And gosh, Sarah's got lifelong fan in me now.

[1:20:15] Meghan: Oh see anything that she does ever.

[1:20:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my gosh, I really want to see her Dragon Lady series. I hope that she gets to do it in New York.

[1:20:24] Meghan: I hope so too.

[1:20:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[1:20:26] Meghan: But it's playing through January. So if you want to go check it out and tell us what you think, it's there for you. Tickets are very available, I think.

[1:20:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's interesting because I was telling some people my take on the show, and they were like, I have to see this now. And I'm like, Oh, that is what that convinced you? Okay, yeah.

[1:20:44] Meghan: Uh so I don't know. People I guess want to see and have their own opinions, which is valid, I do too.

[1:20:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could have talked about this for another hour at least.

[1:20:53] Meghan: Yeah, we really could have. So moving on from 1776 to 2022 and what we could be doing today to change our country. We are hoping folks this week can help protect DACA.

[1:21:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: In October, a federal appeals court ruled that the deferred action for childhood arrivals or DACA. This program that protects nearly 600,000 young immigrants from deportation is illegal, but allow those already enrolled to renew their status, in essence, keeping the status of the program unchanged, but its future uncertain.

[1:21:28] Meghan: So the truth is that the DACA program has never been enough. It was always meant to be a temporary program, and federal government was always supposed to deliver permanent protections for dreamers. The program left out millions of people from the start. Nearly one million DACA recipients have been in a state of limbo since a federal court in Texas partially ended the program last year. And although the Biden administration and the Department of Homeland Security released a new rule on DACA in August, the rule does not strengthen the program or permanently protect DACA recipients.

[1:21:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So how you can help today is to call on Congress and the Biden administration to swiftly pass permanent protections to end this ongoing nightmare for undocumented immigrants in our country. So you can find out more by um checking out the petition for the National Domestic Workers Alliance. We'll have a link to that so you can also sign the petition. And you can check out the New York Immigration Coalition. They have an easy tool so you can write to your representative and demand justice.

[1:22:23] Meghan: Megan, do you have a queer culture rec you want to share?

[1:22:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like this has been like a heavy topic episode. Not that that's something that we stray away from ever. Um, so I do feel like my queer culture wreck is a little slight, but I'm just gonna lean into it because we need some levity uh these days. So my queer culture wreck is, this sounds so funny. Even saying it, I'm like embarrassed. Is um so it's like a guilty pleasure too. It's a YouTube channel called Cruise with Ben and David, and it is about this gay couple from like somewhere that's not London, England, because they have these heavy accents, and they go on cruise ships together and like take videos of each other, like doing things, like doing karaoke, eating food, uh like going down the slide, and they're like grown. They're like, you know, I think they're in their 40s, like they're not and it's just like so joyous.

[1:23:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't know, it it's very like they just get so excited about like getting a croissant, and I feel like it's someone who really enjoys planning vacations or like thinking about vacations, it's fun to just like kind of stalk them, you know, and like follow their adventures together. They're not obnoxious. I feel like I've watched travel bloggers before and they're kind of like annoying. Uh these two are really just like taking you along for the ride. They're not trying to really promote themselves too much. At one point they even had the one guy's mom go on a trip with them and it was hilarious. Like they couldn't get her like to go to dinner on time, and they kept trying to film her like eating food and she was like talking to the waiters. It was like it's just very cute to see these like married men having these weird adventures together so I will link to that I don't know if I sold it but I really do enjoy Cruise with Ben and David.

[1:24:20] Meghan: I had no idea this existed so thank you.

[1:24:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it's a niche world for sure. Um how about you Harrow?

[1:24:27] Meghan: I feel like we've mentioned our queer book club several times on the podcast or maybe every episode of the podcast but I don't think we've ever shared that people can join us. We just transitioned from a Facebook group to a Google group so it's much easier if you don't have Facebook you just need an email address. We'll post the link in our show notes but you can request to join the group and then you'll get calendar invites to the upcoming meetings and like a monthly or twice a month email about when our next meeting and what book we're reading is uh it's very low key we meet in person and we also meet online more online in the winter months uh in New York City so if you want to join us it's called Queers folks book club and we are open to marginalized genders, women, trans, non-binary folks and we have a great time we talk about a book we uh usually spin off into other queer media by the end of the meeting but yeah it's a lot of fun if you want if you're looking for more queer community please come join us we'd love to have you and yeah we'll hope to see you there.

[1:25:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah and we're not people that shame you for not having finished the book.

[1:25:36] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:25:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: As long as you don't mind spoilers come come through even if you've read just a little bit of it.

[1:25:42] Meghan: Yeah I would love to have more people join.

[1:25:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Okay well this has been a wild ride. I am so glad we saw so much and got to have these conversations, Harold.

[1:25:51] Meghan: Definitely.

[1:25:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I've been bursting to talk about 1776 with you, so I'm so glad we finally got to.

[1:25:57] Meghan: Yeah, and thanks to our special guest, Lucy, for joining us as well.

[1:26:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Have a great November, y'all. We'll see you soon.

[1:26:05] Meghan: Thanks for listening. If you like, please follow, rate, and review us, and share us with your friends. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Thesison Joan.

[1:26:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We'd love to hear your queer culture recs and ideas for queering the canon. Send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[1:26:25] Meghan: Come back for more interviews, fun, queer content, recommendations, and discussions on current theater. Until next time, keep it queer.

[1:26:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[1:26:40] Meghan: Yeah, if you want to get Larissa Fasthorse and Ty and I to talk about Native American representation in the theater any month but November, I'm sure.

[1:26:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm sure we'd be real excited. Like if you want to pick it mid-March, really into it.