This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:07] Harrow: Hello, welcome back, queers.

[0:09] Harrow: This is season three, episode four of Thesis on Joan.

[0:14] Harrow: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ community and the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective.

[0:24] Harrow: Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curve.

[0:30] Harrow: For many queers, theater has been an escape, and this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But already it was hot on a walk today and thought about how it's not even June yet.

[1:02] Harrow: But yay, pride.

[1:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[1:04] Harrow: It's fine.

[1:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I don't want to get top surgery because I don't want to deal with bras anymore.

[1:10] Harrow: That's fine.

[1:12] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh my gosh.

[1:14] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Under boob sweat, it's real.

[1:16] Harrow: It's bad.

[1:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And like the thigh sweat for me is out of control.

[1:20] Harrow: Anyway, this is a lot for getting my listeners.

[1:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Hello.

[1:25] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:26] Harrow: Speaking of pride, what we are here.

[1:30] Harrow: Happy Pride, everyone.

[1:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I do love this month.

[1:35] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: What for you, Harrow? What's getting you into the pride spirit this year?

[1:40] Harrow: Well, I am very excited that we have a couple Pride kind of event-ish plans already, which we're gonna talk more about. One is the show that we talked about in our last podcast together, the Taylor Mac show happening in the public, which I'm pumped about. But yeah, I feel like for me we, you know, we got to meet up with a friend recently who's not currently living in town and I feel like sometimes pride can feel like when you see like churches have homecomings, you know, and it's like oh yay like I know this weekend I'm gonna hang out with all my queers so it's nice to have like that holiday.

[2:19] Harrow: Yeah you know it's coming how about you?

[2:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, we just got off talking to one of our next guests which I'm not gonna spoil it but oof that also felt like really getting into the pride spirit for me. Yeah just she is an incredible leader and activist and designer so stay tuned for that helps us remember what pride is really about.

[2:35] Harrow: Absolutely. Yeah I think it's similar for me I'm I'm excited for the community when this airs I will just have been getting back from a trip to Korea with my yeah I know with my friend Sam and you know we had originally this is Sam's first time going back to Korea as an adoptee and when we first thought about this trip together we had hoped we could go for Korean pride and see what it was like in Seoul and I think I think we're going too early now we're actually going like end of May to early June but I definitely am we're gonna go to Homo Hill is what it's called in Seoul where all the gay bars are we're gonna hopefully meet some other queer folks in Seoul which would be very exciting.

[2:35] Harrow: I got I went to Homo Hill when I went to Korea in 2019, but with the way our schedule worked out, it was a Tuesday night.

[3:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[3:41] Harrow: And you know it wasn't super when you want to be on Homo Hill.

[3:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[3:46] Harrow: And then the bar, the club that was like for mostly like femme folks was not open. So I was bummed about that.

[3:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um so yeah I'm very excited to experience some queer culture in Korea. I'll update you once I get back.

[4:03] Harrow: Um yeah and I'm sure that I'll post things on my social media if people want to look there too.

[4:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah I'll be expecting a full report all about Homo Hill.

[4:13] Harrow: Also like how big of a hill is it I'm curious.

[4:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's it's uh it's like a San Francisco Hill. It's pretty steep yeah so if they had to put us you know on an angle they they know how we love our asymmetry.

[4:26] Harrow: Yeah.

[4:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You don't want to be too easy to read you gotta struggle a little bit you gotta fight to be a homo in Seoul that's what Seoul's all about fighting to be a homo.

[4:40] Harrow: No I'm so excited to hear about your trip. I know you've been looking forward to it and um I'm just glad that you know the world is kind of in a place right now where at least you don't have to quarantine.

[4:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah I hope I hope you know the pandemic is real so we're gonna try and be as safe as we can. Um but yeah it I feel like it's it's wild to be back on a regular Tony schedule too. I feel like pride always kind of ties in with Tony Awards for me.

[5:09] Harrow: Um and so I'm I'm excited to have the Tonies back in June and excited that I actually like some things that are up for Tony's so I think that'll be another that'll be something else to celebrate when you're back from Korea.

[5:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Definitely, yeah. I'm excited for that too. Should we talk about some shows?

[5:28] Harrow: Let's do it. Meghan, you saw How I Learned to Drive by our now friend fam, Paula Vogel.

[5:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Our yeah, favorite queer elder slash dog, Corgi mom.

[5:42] Harrow: Yes.

[5:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um Corgi parent. Uh yeah, to continue the tradition the spring of seeing plays that I've only ever read. It's it's another one, right? That I feel like, you know, when you read it it actually feels pretty linear. And when you see the show you you realize how um kind of subversive the um the way that she constructs it is with the jumping forward and backward in time and um it's like again I know I feel like I'm repeating what I just said for Color Girls, but I can't imagine seeing this when it first came out and like the audience reaction to it.

[6:22] Harrow: Cause you know almost half of the people around me before the show started had said like oh I saw the original. So these people like knew what they were in for they were very aware of like what this show is about.

[6:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um but I can't imagine like an entire house of people who had seen this for the first time 25 years ago.

[6:41] Harrow: Yeah what that would have been.

[6:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah I think because I saw the revival at second stage and I don't think I knew what it was about going in.

[6:51] Harrow: Uh and so it was it was a big surprise to me.

[6:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I think I don't know I I don't remember what it was but I feel like I don't know if I was picking up on how like insidious the relationship was and like how many red flags there were throughout the whole piece.

[7:09] Harrow: Um and it yeah it'd be interesting I I still want to see it now um to see how I I react to things but yeah.

[7:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah I I think what struck me the most the like genius of it is how manipulative the playwright is with um you allowing this predator some not even empathy but understanding because it starts with her 17 just about to turn 18 right and like still doesn't make it okay but in your mind you're like okay this is an an almost adult you know and the way that it moves backward in time it's you realize that you've given this man allowances uh and you never had the whole story and that I just think what is so brilliant about it.

[7:57] Harrow: Do you like how do you think it's changed since the actors now are so much older than when it originally premiered like how do you think that has affected the play?

[8:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah I actually looked up production photos of the first production to see I mean Mary Louise Parker has like a portrait of herself aging in the attic I think so like there's no there's no change there. It's like almost exactly the same and her her ability to move between the ages and her body language is awesome.

[8:30] Harrow: And um I saw it with my wife and she was saying how she liked that it felt like very fun home like big Allison like more retrospective because she is older.

[8:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So she was able to embody like the adult looking back a little bit more. I think it must really change though the way it would have changed the way I perceived David Morse, I think, because he has like noticeably aged a lot more.

[8:55] Harrow: Um I looked at the production photos and he looks like a guy in his 30s in those, which he was, and now he he more looks the the age of the role actually.

[9:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I I feel like that makes it more sinister too because he's older but I I don't know what that means.

[9:14] Harrow: It's not like a 30 year old man should be doing what he's doing in the play.

[9:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Right.

[9:17] Harrow: So he's supposed to be 30 when Lil Bit is like the youngest or when he's the oldest.

[9:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: There's a moment where he says he's in his 50s and I think it's when she's like going off to college.

[9:35] Harrow: So yeah there's like a 25 year age difference between them.

[9:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[9:41] Harrow: Yeah.

[9:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: More than that almost 30.

[9:43] Harrow: Yeah I'm not sure who did you see who did you see in the the roles?

[9:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It was uh Norbert Leo Butts was oh whoa the uncle.

[9:51] Harrow: Yeah not away you want to see him.

[9:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: No and uh all I can think of is Ava from Gray's Anatomy but that's not her name.

[10:02] Harrow: Elizabeth Reaser?

[10:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah Elizabeth Reaser.

[10:05] Harrow: Okay.

[10:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She's been in a ton of stuff. Super disturbing also if like I don't do you remember this what hap what oh do you remember Norbert Leo Butts talking about like how he won't be in shows that portray violence against women anymore and like 'cause what happened to his sister?

[10:22] Harrow: With his sister.

[10:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. That's it's such a horrifying story.

[10:27] Harrow: Uh yeah, I think about that story periodically and it just makes me so sad.

[10:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[10:32] Harrow: Um, yeah.

[10:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh and I think this happened that revival was after that happened, and after he's like, Oh, I'm not doing that kind of work anymore.

[10:41] Harrow: Yeah.

[10:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I'm curious when the production you saw, because the set for this is so minimal, right? It's just like some flats and some chairs and a table, uh, and there's some costume pieces that come on and off for the ensemble members.

[11:00] Harrow: Um, is that kind of what it was like when you saw it?

[11:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I don't remember it super well. I just remember some of the key scenes with with Lil Bit and the Uncle, and but I don't I remember like there was a I think the car was just chairs, like there wasn't any.

[11:16] Harrow: Yeah, it I think it was pretty minimal.

[11:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's awesome though. I I can imagine, you know, when Paula's first trying to get this produced or get it together, like I'm sure people read it and they're like, How are we gonna show this? How is this progression gonna take place? This is so confusing, and it's just like theater magic how simply it's done, and it's such a complex story, but the audience is easily able to be with it the whole time just because it's uh like written and directed so clearly.

[11:48] Harrow: I thought that was fantastic.

[11:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: There um I just read the script recently before we talked to Paula, and I think in the script, I think this is how I learned to drive, she puts some suggestions for slides or like projections.

[12:03] Harrow: Oh, uh, and then she notes like, oh, the original production didn't do this, but this is an option.

[12:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um and she gives some, yeah, some like ideas for things to project behind the show.

[12:19] Harrow: I'm pretty sure this is how I learned to drive.

[12:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but it doesn't sound like they did that for this production either.

[12:25] Harrow: No, no projections.

[12:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah. Very minimal.

[12:29] Harrow: Um, I have to shout out Joanna Day, too, who plays the mother character and a couple other uh also the wife of the uncle, but she has some really incredible like moments of these.

[12:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: The one is like your mom's tips on how to drink.

[12:47] Harrow: And like it's she's enable, she's able to like just in this one actor, show like the really complicated relationship that all the women in this family have with like themselves and their bodies and the men in their life, and she takes on a huge like burden with that role, um, and really does an awesome job.

[13:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[13:11] Harrow: Yeah, I'm thinking as like more of our friends have children or like planning to have children, like how we sexualize children so early and how we talk about gender to children so early, and yeah, it's it's hard even if you are trying to do something different, you know, they're gonna pick up so much from the world around them.

[13:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And it's uh I I was thinking back too to um, you know, I'm going into the show having read it but not remembering it very well, but knowing a lot about Paula, and there really is nothing in it to her point about being worried uh about people assuming that trauma leads to being queer.

[13:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: There really isn't anything in it that really reveals a little bit ends up being queer later in life. I think there's like one line that says something about like I wasn't as interested in boys as I thought I would be, you know. So I thought that was um it's very purposeful what she did. And I know she talked about it a lot with us, so as of the time of recording how I learned to drive has been extended through June 12th hoping that it's extended further so if you're listening to this the day it comes out you still have a weekend to catch it.

[14:24] Harrow: So Holly you were like what four hours out from having seen Strange Loop. This is very fresh.

[14:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's so fresh I'm really glad I saw it at playwrights so I had like at least knew what I was in for and I had I've had time to digest that performance at least and you saw it for the very first time.

[14:44] Harrow: Yeah yesterday so this is like right on the heels of it. I am like where do we go next because there's some things I want to talk about I guess we should tell folks that this is probably spoilery if you are waiting to see the show want to be totally surprised by moments of it. Um I have to ask first uh did things change because I it feels like such a tight cohesive show so I was like I have to talk to Holly about if anything is different in this it did feel a little tighter I think they did cut some things and then I listened to the cast recording on my way home and it did feel like they cut a little of the mom stuff.

[15:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay. Um and they had changed the the sex scene a little bit it's actually like more intense on the recording it's like more racial um yeah it's a little more like sleigh play ish uh but yeah that those were the main things I remembered that felt a little different, but other than that, it felt pretty similar. Um, besides the main actor changing, because all the thoughts are the same.

[15:56] Harrow: Um, there's so so many of the scenes stick out to me of how like having visceral memories of seeing this and how beautifully it's staged and choreographed. I'm like, oh, I remember so much of this now that I'm seeing it. Um I think I haven't been listening to it since I saw it, and I think watching it today, I'm like, oh, this show feels so emotional to me and so precious that I think I was putting off revisiting it because I'm like, oh, it's it's too, it's too much that I can't just like listen to it.

[16:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Sure, yeah. And you saw it right before COVID, and so it's like it it's uh pretty emotionally raw. Like I think revisiting it, you have to be like ready for that.

[16:46] Harrow: Yeah. So and it feels like I want to give it my full attention, you know, when I'm engaging with the show. Um but yeah, just like such an infusion of joy. I think like the on the the thoughts are incredible, like each one of them has such an amazing moment. And they just when they are on stage, like they're so dynamic, you can't take your eyes off of them.

[17:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, they're all so unique and um just like have so much personality and character work and what they're doing, it's incredible. It's so great. And I was uh telling my friend who I went with. Um, this is like for many reasons, this is a show I want to return to, but like seeing the different like personality and energy that people would bring to like the thoughts is like it's so cool to think that because it feels like those are very much constructed around those actors, right?

[17:42] Harrow: Um, and like thinking back to what El Morgan was telling us about like how collaborative the process was of putting the show together. So like these characters are very much, you know, pieces of them too. Um you could see that come through, like they were just fully embodying uh yeah, the thoughts are incredible.

[18:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and they just look like they're having so much fun. Like I'm sure everything is super rehearsed and work through and uh specific, but it just feels like they're having a party and yeah, it feels like there's ad lib moments, and I know there's probably not.

[18:17] Harrow: Yeah, yeah. Um thing I did want to say is I we have to demand that the Tonies add an ensemble award like the Olivier's have, because the show needs it, like this whole cast needs needs to get a Tony for this ensemble work.

[18:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, absolutely. I don't know why we don't have that in in our award season.

[18:38] Harrow: Yeah. And they're on they're working hard.

[18:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh my gosh. They're on stage all of them, including um the lead, like everyone's on stage almost the whole show.

[18:48] Harrow: Yeah. It's wild to me. I that no one's getting any breaks, and it's a very like seems very difficult song the show to sing, you know, and it's super energy packed.

[18:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So emotional. Oh my gosh.

[19:02] Harrow: Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't remember if there was an intermission or not, and then I kept once we got to the like the gospel number, I'm like, oh no, this is to the end. Great.

[19:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Um, but I'm like, damn, that's such uh an intense packed show. So the lead, uh Jaquel's Fivey just graduated last May, is that right?

[19:24] Harrow: Incredible, yeah. He's amazing. Uh he plays the main character, Usher. Like we said, he's on stage the entire time.

[19:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Entire show. And the range of that role, like vocally, is wild. Like it's very impressive.

[19:44] Harrow: Oh wow. Yeah. I do wish, like, I feel like the thoughts get so many moments of fun and play and joy. And I wish that Usher also got a couple moments to like experience something good. You know?

[19:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. And I was thinking about this actually uh on the way home. And because you really only get like the couple fourth wall breaks or things like that where Usher's able to do a comedic bit.

[20:10] Harrow: Uh-huh. Um, but I'm like, if we're in the world of this, the thoughts are him, right? So it's like, I guess he is getting the comedic moments, but I thought that too. It's like he he kind of has to be this like centered, focused uh character to like the chaos of the thoughts.

[20:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Oh, I remember oh, the scene on the train where uh the guy hits on him. Oh, that broke my heart the first time I saw it. I was so excited for him, and then you find out, you know, it's not real.

[20:44] Harrow: Oh, that was how did the audience react uh today when you saw it?

[20:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: People were vocal, they were like, oh, they were very upset too. Someone behind me literally yelled, No.

[20:57] Harrow: It's like that's what I felt too. Like it's yeah, it the show definitely um calls out some visceral responses and people to various scenes. I was glad that that like it didn't at least turn into like a joke or something that the guy was hitting on him, yeah.

[21:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But speaking of jokes, um, and this being another show that I know I'm not the target audience. I'm happy to be in the audience to see this show. Um it, you know, there's there's things that folks laugh at that feel like troubling that people are laughing at, and I feel like that's part of his part of Michael's agenda, right? Is to put the discomfort there and see how you react to it.

[21:42] Harrow: Um, but I wanted to hear like how that you reacted to that as well.

[21:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, like are you talking about the like Tyler Perry spin-off stuff?

[21:51] Harrow: Yeah. I didn't there weren't a ton of people did laugh at it. Um but I think it felt more like laughing at like how ridiculous it is, more than like thinking that is real. But it is I love how the show talks about like what is what kind of blackness is permitted to be on Broadway. Like, you know, we've got the Lion King, yeah, we've got a lot of the color purple, um, and entertainment in general, right? Because Tyler Perry does a lot of stuff.

[22:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but yeah, I and it's interesting like knowing this show would be seen by a lot of white people, like offering that up to people as a joke. Uh and telling you like these characters aren't real and they aren't real people, uh, and then still seeing, but yeah, I don't know. Does that sink in for folks, or do they still think, you know, it's funny to laugh at those caricatures?

[22:58] Harrow: Right. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to tell, but I think it's brilliant the way it's in there, and the other thing too, um, that like the thing that I can't stop thinking about that I'm just like this playwright is incredibly brilliant. Um, is the scene where which we'll talk more about the gospel scene, right? The like penultimate scene of the play, and um that moment where the lights come into the audience and the thoughts lean over and like do the welcome you to clap moment.

[23:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, and I'm just like, holy shit. Like, this is people do it, and I'm just like this is wild. You are complicit in this, but then I'm thinking back to like how many times have I been in a religious environment and I'm complicit because it's what's it risk expected of me and what is vocalized, and it just like paralleled the experience of being in church, but it also like I don't know that part is so wild to me. I I don't know that's in the script or if it's a director choice, but like that part alone, I'm like, get all the awards.

[24:09] Harrow: Yeah, it's so wild. Yeah, and the fact that people do, especially because like who's gonna be in the orchestra, right? Like all like mostly white folks, and yeah, they're just gonna be clapping. Like, I don't I'm like, are you thinking critically about what you're seeing at all, or are you just here to be entertained because you think this is gonna be a Tyler Perry show?

[24:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I hope not. I don't know. Oh, it like really calls people out, and like it it jumps into like your I don't know how he does it. Like with the laughing, with the clapping, it's like there's not enough time for you to think about what you're doing because you've been trained to respond to things in this way. So then you find yourself like, oh shit, like I can't believe.

[24:51] Harrow: Yeah. Um like everyone in my row was clapping.

[24:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Wow. Just like, wow, this is how, how is this happening?

[25:01] Harrow: Yeah. I think Brendan Jenkin Jacobs does that really well too of like making you laugh really hard and then being like, Well, why were you laughing? You know?

[25:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. Um I also worked at The Lion King.

[25:20] Harrow: I sold merch.

[25:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I'm just like, I feel this so hard of like dealing with the tourists, and it is really, but like El Morgan Lee's song um is really sweet and like a really nice moment.

[25:36] Harrow: Um do you think that character is supposed to be white or black?

[25:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I don't know.

[25:43] Harrow: Yeah, actually. I was feeling that was another thing that I know we talked about this with SUFs a little bit. Like, unless it was blatantly said this character is white, I kind of assumed it was a black character.

[25:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um that makes sense, yeah. But I don't know. Also, that song is like very sweet.

[26:03] Harrow: Um, and it's like kind of the only like conventional musical theater moment in the whole show for me, which is interesting.

[26:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I mean, he has so many different styles of music throughout the piece, right? And as I was like listening to the score again by itself, um, the first piece feels very Sondheim-esque.

[26:23] Harrow: Um, with all the different thoughts, very like company almost.

[26:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, and just his like his rhyming and his play on words is like Sondheim level, yeah.

[26:35] Harrow: Yeah, and super intricate and like things that I probably won't get until I've listened to the cast recording like three or four times.

[26:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um and I love that the opening number is so joyous in like a genuinely joyous way, but also in a like this is as good as it's gonna like emotionally as high as it's gonna get, and we're just gonna take you down from here.

[27:00] Harrow: Yeah, yeah, and I think he does such a great job of like you you feel so sad for Usher in the first half of the show, and like it generally it as the show goes, it gets harder and harder for him, and like up to like the sex scene, right? And and you're just devastated by that, and you're and he sings that song about oh, what are my boundaries? Like, why did I let he and him do that to me? And then you kind you get it, you get why, like you get how like where the self-loathing comes from, you know, how much his like family and the church has influenced him.

[27:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um yeah, uh, and it helps us understand, you know, the psyche of someone who's been constantly oppressed and constantly told they're wrong, you know, they're you know, their family does say they love them, but just like unloved by the world.

[27:55] Harrow: Um loved like with a caveat that they wish that he would be somebody else, yeah.

[28:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, exactly.

[28:04] Harrow: I kept thinking of um during the like Tinder Health Kitchen dating scene, which is so much fun, yeah.

[28:12] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um like I kept thinking.

[28:15] Harrow: Oh my god.

[28:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: They're so good.

[28:19] Harrow: Yeah, it's exactly what I wanted.

[28:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I kept thinking of uh Hire You Single Ryan Haddad show and like the parallels of like him and the bar scenes and in that show as well.

[28:33] Harrow: And um, I wonder if they've ever sat down and chatted about gay dating, because I think they should.

[28:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh I'd love to hear that conversation too.

[28:40] Harrow: Yeah.

[28:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh yeah. I mean, I am so thankful I am not a cis gay man.

[28:45] Harrow: Jesus Christ.

[28:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[28:47] Harrow: Like yeah.

[28:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I I thought that was like so okay. I have talked to a few people about the show before I saw it. Like, and it's either folks, you know, who I'm friends with and trust and have seen it and are obsessed with it. But then there's other folks I've talked to who aren't uh, you know, people that I would normally go to the theater with. Um and everyone was like, it's really good, but it kind of goes too far, or like it it it like pushes too much. And I was literally mid like the show yesterday. I'm like, they were all sis, white, beautiful gay men. And I was like, I don't think that that crew is used to getting called out on stage very often.

[29:32] Harrow: So it's refreshing.

[29:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and calling out white women, right?

[29:39] Harrow: Uh the whole song about you know, like white women can get away with anything.

[29:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and I feel like that's gonna ruffle feathers too, right?

[29:47] Harrow: Like, I hope, yeah.

[29:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, like the women are like, oh, but you know, we're oppressed, patriarchy, you know.

[29:53] Harrow: Um yeah, and I love that that is in there. Um yeah, in between those two groups, I feel like you know, there's this element of like, oh, the theater's always been a safe space for people who are different, or you know, and it's like, yeah, and it needs to be that, and that's why it's not for y'all right now, you know.

[30:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So um I love the moment where Usher says something about the cousin who passes away, and like how he's like not normal heart, not angels in America, and it's like here is what we've learned is gay life, and it's not like not what I'm talking about in the show.

[30:31] Harrow: Yeah, I just I like I felt emotional watching the opening number because I'm like, oh, when first of all, I'm just so happy for them that they're on Broadway and singing about a big black queer ass American Broadway, like that feels so special on Broadway, and and I'm just like, Oh, I've never I never see a main character that has like a body that's similar to mine, that has like all these insecurities that I f that you know that also I'm not the main audience for this, but like I relate to him so deeply, and yeah, just I think just having a fat protagonist and then adding on all like the blackness, the queerness, all of that, just it's so specific, but I was reading um Deep Trans review of the show, and it's all about how like the specificity of it makes it universal, and I think that's so true.

[31:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, yeah, I saw that in her review.

[31:21] Harrow: Yes, I know I was trying to think as I was watching it, like when is when was our last like true fat protagonist? And I probably hairspray, but that's like very different, yeah.

[31:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: What's being done with that, and yeah, and hairspray is more about like the fatness is like, oh, but she can she's still she's trying to lose weight. She's doing all the right things, right?

[31:47] Harrow: Like she's right. A good fat person.

[31:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And it's like, can you believe she's just talented and she's fat?

[31:52] Harrow: Yeah.

[31:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And this is more in the reality of like, no, you're fucking discriminated against when you're fat.

[32:00] Harrow: And yeah.

[32:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I love the sh the musical title of show, right? Which is another meta musical. And uh so my ex used to always like disagree with me, and she's like, Oh, you know, it's good, but you know, I think they're really talented and they could have done more. And I always like was so upset by that 'cause I'm like, what are you talking about? That's so brilliant, it's funny, it's like heartfelt, it's encouraging of to be creative, and now I like look at this show and the meta-ness of it and the show within the show, and I'm like, Oh this is what this concept could do and could be yeah.

[32:43] Harrow: It's so um I I feel like it would be hard to explain to folks who I don't really know their theater preferences, you know, because it's like if I it's someone I know and I know that they're they love theater, and you know, it's like what like how are how are we pitching this out of town people? I want everyone to see it, but that's what I've I keep thinking about because it is very meta and it is very like a musical about feelings and emotions more than it is about like a story that happens, so yeah.

[33:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I think I would just tell people to go see it and be like, I can't tell you what it's about, you just have to see it.

[33:21] Harrow: Um also because I saw the minutes last night.

[33:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, okay, yeah.

[33:26] Harrow: Oh, that might is real rough.

[33:28] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I would oh no recommend not seeing that show at all.

[33:33] Harrow: Really?

[33:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I heard the good things from folks about I hated it so much.

[33:38] Harrow: Why?

[33:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Tony. It's uh I feel like it's everything wrong with old Broadway because they like this is gonna go this was gonna be on Broadway, you know, before the pandemic, right? And then it got delayed, and now it's there, and I'm like, this shouldn't have been brought back. It's like a mostly white cast, uh set in a small town in Big Cherry, uh, where it's like the city counts like a city council meeting. And the city council, there was one person missing, uh, Noah, who was Patrick from Schitt's Creek.

[34:09] Harrow: Schitt's Creek guy, yeah.

[34:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh so he missed the last meeting because his mother died, and so he's like trying to find out what happened at the last meeting, and no one will tell him. Uh so you find out through the course of the play that like something went down, like history about the town was revealed, it's racist as fuck, surprise, surprise, and like the rest of the city council's trying to cover it up basically.

[34:35] Harrow: Oh yeah, but it's like it's like, why are we producing shows about racism written by old white people when we could just be producing people of color? Like when this is down the street, yeah.

[34:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, why Tracy Letts doesn't need any more money.

[34:54] Harrow: Tracy Letts is well known, he's fine, he's also starring in it.

[34:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um it just goes to that point of like it lets it like white white people are gonna watch this and be like, oh well, but we're not that bad because we're not like going to the extreme of these people.

[35:11] Harrow: Yeah, exactly.

[35:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, there's no nuance, it's just you know, white people are bad, uh, they're all extremely racist, which you know everyone is racist. Um, but it's like if you're not doing the absurd things that these people are doing, it's not that bad.

[35:28] Harrow: Or it just walked off feeling the hook, yeah.

[35:31] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay about yourself.

[35:32] Harrow: Yeah, exactly. Which goes back to like what um they're saying in Strange Loop of like, how are you gonna produce the show if it's not about like slavery? Like how do you how are you gonna make a show that doesn't like show the extreme of racism so people can walk out feeling just like that? Like at least I'm not that person. And I'm thinking like um Larissa Fast Horse uh has her play Thanksgiving play, and that stars all white people and talks about like indigenous uh genocide and like representation, and I'm like, why aren't people producing that on Broadway? You know, like if you want to talk about indigenity and genocide, like fucking produce a native writer.

[36:16] Harrow: Yeah, it's like if you want to have this conversation, here's the way to do it.

[36:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and if you need it to star all white people, like there's your play.

[36:24] Harrow: There you go, you can still do that.

[36:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[36:26] Harrow: That's wild, because I um that's not clear in any of the advertising or marketing.

[36:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I haven't read any of the reviews because I was just so mad about it.

[36:37] Harrow: We've got great reviews, too.

[36:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, so yeah.

[36:41] Harrow: So spend your money on Strange Loop and says.

[36:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yeah.

[36:44] Harrow: Uh yes, go as many times as you can.

[36:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[36:49] Harrow: Well, I do want to shout out El Morgan Lee because she's such a star. Like all of them are incredible, but I think she she just has my heart so much.

[36:58] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, she's incredible.

[37:00] Harrow: And like almost all of the thoughts are making their Broadway debut too, which blows my mind.

[37:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: They're so talented.

[37:08] Harrow: There are moments when Elle Morgan is just like singing her face off and it's just kind of like in the background on the side, but I'm like, ah do you hear her?

[37:20] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I wanted to turn to people and be like, Do you know the offers that she has? You are lucky she is here.

[37:27] Harrow: She is not gonna be in an ensemble for long.

[37:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I'll appreciate this while while we have her here.

[37:34] Harrow: They're all so incredible.

[37:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I just yeah.

[37:37] Harrow: I want them all to have yeah.

[37:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Fantastic.

[37:40] Harrow: Um yeah. Go see the show several times. Tell everyone you know to see it.

[37:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm. Take friends, yeah, take enemies.

[37:52] Harrow: So another show we recently got to see together was Which Way to the Stage at MCC, written by Anna and Ogeta and directed by Mike Donahue with choreography by Paul McGill.

[38:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I am very excited to talk with you about the show.

[38:09] Harrow: I had many thoughts.

[38:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Well, I have you to thank for like knowing the show exists.

[38:13] Harrow: But most shows.

[38:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I remember when you first sent me the info about this. You're like, I think we have to see this.

[38:19] Harrow: I'm like, Yeah, yes we do.

[38:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: From the from the blurb, it sounds like it's about fan like musical theater fan culture.

[38:28] Harrow: Um which it is, and I know like Megan was writing a thesis on this, right?

[38:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, yeah.

[38:34] Harrow: We had to go see it.

[38:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I was like, it's a rule, and we're both of the fandom, you know, and currently of the fandom.

[38:41] Harrow: Um, but i it's definitely um, and we're gonna get more into it. It's they don't give you a lot in the marketing clerb, and I feel like that is very on purpose.

[38:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I and all I had really heard about it from friends was like, This is so funny, you're gonna laugh the whole time. And like it definitely delivered on that for I'd say like the first what, 20, 25 minutes.

[39:02] Harrow: So it's like, okay, I know what this play is. I don't know. What did you think at the beginning?

[39:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I thought it was gonna be like a loving send-up of musical theater fans, and and and I think that is what the first 20, 30 minutes is. Um, it has a pair of two best friends who uh a gay man and a straight woman, uh, both white presenting, um, at a stage door waiting for an actress, aka Adina Menzel to come out of the if then, and they want her autograph.

[39:32] Harrow: Uh, and there are so many like insider musical theater jokes, references. Like, I was I was loving it.

[39:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It was a Jackie Burns joke. Like that's amazing.

[39:40] Harrow: And like the minute we walked in, like we both saw the set and we're like, oh, absolutely. Like it's the stage door, it's the if them poster. They were playing um like Little Shop and Weagly Fulton Hamilton, yeah, all these like fan shows.

[39:58] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And you know, it definitely felt like everyone in the crowd was in on that too. Like the first half hour was for all of us for sure.

[40:07] Harrow: Yeah, it felt like a heavy theater crowd, definitely.

[40:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And then yeah, and then it goes, it takes a twist, and I think I'm still confused of like what the messages the playwright was trying to make at the end, but I think it really tries to get into the relationship between the two friends and uh the di the dynamics, the power dynamics of uh of a white a cisgabe man his um his patriarchy versus the the gay the straight woman's uh homophobia um and how those both like casually interfere with their relationship.

[40:53] Harrow: Casually, and that's exactly it, right? It's like this, and I think that's what makes the twist so like strange, or like you don't kind of don't feel the play that it's turning into because it things start to get slowly like weaved into their conversations until it ends up being like you know, kind of like these knockdown, drag out conversations about identity and place in the musical theater world and like who's getting what roles and who's being um marginalized to the point where you know everyone in the show thinks that they have it worse than the other, which you know that's that's a a thing we see in plays often and creates good conflict, but just with the climate of the world or just the world as it is, and the fact that you know it it was it made it increasingly difficult to sympathize with any of these characters.

[41:50] Harrow: Yeah, it felt like they were playing oppression Olympics, and there was absolutely no acknowledgement of the privilege they have, as two white folks, as you know, people who have a lot of financial resources. It seems like they both had to work day jobs, but yeah, but they're stable, they're paying their rent.

[42:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, and that really bothered me. Like, if you want to talk about injustice in the actor community and the theater community, this is not where I would start. And yeah. And not to say it's not a thing. It is a thing, but I feel like we can start with people more impacted than this. And also as themselves as gatekeepers, right? Like they hold a lot of power. There's a whole conversation about how the writers of musical theater wrote women's parts as like a surrogate to themselves 'cause they couldn't write about themselves because they were gay and the time period wouldn't allow it, right? So it was like, oh, these parts were written for me and I'm not allowed to have them because I'm a gay man, but the women get all those parts. And it's like yes, but they were still allowed into the theater industry. Like how many people were shut out completely, right? And not even allowed to pretend to be somebody else.

[43:15] Harrow: Right. And it's kind of like a—I know I said this after we saw the show. I'm I don't like invalidate that. I feel like if you asked if you had asked Sondheim he wouldn't been like no I wanted to write you know the baker's wife like you know he was always so wonderful at writing women's roles and like Bobby exists. He was a male identifying role. So he clearly didn't feel held back to write a male character that feels isolated and alone. So I'm like there's also just don't don't like cast doubt over the entire history of musical theater that we all love in the audience and say that like every role written for a woman isn't actually for a woman. It's like, okay, this is like the one thing that like if I'm identifying people get in the theater is that like the best songs go to them.

[44:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[44:02] Harrow: So I don't know. That was a strange twist. But I think the thing you said at the beginning, oh, Holly, is like, what are we supposed to learn from this? What are we supposed to walk out with? I don't understand. And I think we're gonna spoil the ending here. Um, the ending, uh, there's a lot of talk throughout the show of the woman actress not having an amazing voice, but she is very um repressed, I guess, when you she sings, she doesn't let herself go. She's not very free on stage as a performer. And the gay friend is a drag performer and you know, doesn't have the parts that he's able to find are not really plentiful. Um so what happens in the end is that the straight woman does drag, and she the last thing is a is a an amazing performance of her doing Rose's turn, and it's pretty it's it's very fun to watch, it's you know, entertaining, but yeah, I'm not sure it feels like it's supposed to be like she found her freedom in her performing through drag, even though she has some kind of disparaging things to say about drag and the um, you know the patriarchy that's within drag, um, which I don't really agree with, but yeah.

[45:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And now that we're reflecting back on it, and in light of the conversation that we just had with our upcoming guest, like even this drag performer in the show, the male identifying friend, you know, there's no—I don't know, I think I feel like you're led to think that this is an art form that he's been able to authentically embrace but there's also no recognition of like where drag comes from and how drag has also been taken from you know the black trans women or the black women who have like originated a lot of it but yeah there's the it could go on. I mean the performance is amazing at the end but I just it almost makes drag feel a little more—I it's slight I don't know how to say it that's like she's using it as like a friendship move to apologize.

[45:25] Harrow: Yeah, it's interesting because the director Mike Donahue also directed um The Legend of Georgia McBride which I saw and I felt like that show had one of the most one of the best descriptions of the importance and the history of drag in it and helped me understand you know where it came from even um because I think I also at a time like had those same feelings about drag where I'm like oh is this you know codifying what it means to be a woman like why do you know drag women queens have to look like this um and and does it like objectify women to do drag and I think um this show didn't get into that as much just name those things and then didn't really counter the argument.

[47:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it's almost like if you wanted this to be the conversation why wasn't this most like the entire play you know and um I feel like this is gonna get done like wildfire at colleges.

[47:18] Harrow: Absolutely.

[47:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it's gonna rake in all the licensing money.

[47:23] Harrow: And I don't know. I felt the shift for both of us, like mid-show. You know, we were like in it, we were laughing at everything, and then we were just kind of like pulling back a little bit. Um, which wasn't the case for everyone, you know, like a lot of people seemed with it, and but I feel like if you're the type of person to go to see the show, you were able to have conversations that are well beyond what the show is trying to tell you.

[47:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So you're you're educated already on this quote issue that it's talking about, and you need to challenge yourself to go.

[47:59] Harrow: Yeah, well, I'm curious, like if there are folks going who are just like musical theater fans, and maybe they haven't had these conversations, like maybe it is a gateway, I don't know. Um, I'm trying to think who the blurb is like really tailoring to, and it feels like it's theater folks.

[48:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like I can't imagine a tourist going to see this.

[48:20] Harrow: No, absolutely not.

[48:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[48:24] Harrow: Um, I do want to shout out though the actress Michelle Vientomia, who played all of the like other women roles outside of um the main character Judy. Uh she's so good.

[48:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's so funny.

[48:40] Harrow: She plays like the girl you think is the mean girl, but is actually like on your side.

[48:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She plays like a drunk bachelorette type.

[48:50] Harrow: And yeah, I don't know, she kind of stole a lot of scenes for me. I really enjoyed her performances.

[48:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I really wanted to see her Adina Menzel because she kind of looks like Adina, but that never happened.

[49:01] Harrow: No, that was the Chekhov's gun that didn't get fired, is her walking on stage looking like Adina, and it never happens.

[49:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I also with the ending, I'm like, oh, this could have been her in King Drag, right?

[49:15] Harrow: Like, oh yeah.

[49:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: How could she have freed her?

[49:18] Harrow: I would have loved to see how she frees herself, you know, as a masculine person.

[49:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That would have like 360 the way I felt about it.

[49:25] Harrow: Yeah.

[49:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It would have totally changed it for me.

[49:28] Harrow: And like if it ended with that point, because that would have gave me a totally different message.

[49:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I also like what would have—there's also this um bisexual man character that like the both friends are kind of fighting over.

[49:41] Harrow: And he's kind of the foil of like he presents as like a straight white, very masculine man.

[49:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And oh, it's so easy for him to get all these parts. He has so much privilege, we're so hard pressed.

[49:55] Harrow: Uh I would have loved to see him in drag too, you know.

[49:58] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, everybody get in drag.

[49:59] Harrow: Yeah.

[50:00] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's true.

[50:03] Harrow: I will say I was telling a friend who um doesn't live here about this show, and they were like, Oh, so it's like Waiting for Godot.

[50:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I'm like, I don't know.

[50:15] Harrow: Like, I think about it through that lens, I almost wish it had gone a little more like absurdist with like waiting for Adina to come out.

[50:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That would have been funny.

[50:24] Harrow: So as of this recording, it's set to close May 22nd. Maybe it will extend and you'll still have more opportunity to see it if you want. I think it is a decent conversation starter.

[50:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but yeah, I do wish it had gone deeper with its analysis.

[50:39] Harrow: And then Meghan, we had the great fortune to see the Into the Woods at City Center's Encore series, which blew my mind.

[50:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I loved it so much.

[50:52] Harrow: Um great fortune indeed.

[50:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yes.

[50:57] Harrow: And this is not a particularly queer show, so I wanted to queer it.

[51:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[51:02] Harrow: Uh and this is not uh particularly cool. How would you queer Into the Woods?

[51:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I mean, the way that I always kind of thought it was going to be queer, and they just didn't go for it, is like the really leaning into the witch, like being Rapunzel's lover instead of like a mother figure, right? Because like she has this beautiful like femme locked in a tower who's totally dependent on her and like is like almost kind of uh what is it, Stockholm syndrome type. You know what I mean? And I'm like, just like lean into that. And then that like drives the witch's motivations so interestingly to me.

[51:44] Harrow: But um, I think we read Emma Donahue's story, the in that Kissing the Witch.

[51:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I think there isn't so long now.

[51:51] Harrow: But I think there's one in that book that's like gay Rapunzel.

[51:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Amazing.

[51:55] Harrow: Yeah. What about you?

[51:58] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh I would love to see a woman. Well, first of all, I want to see like Butch Princes do Agony.

[52:05] Harrow: Yes.

[52:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[52:07] Harrow: Um that also fits into my dream of like a Cinderella's prince being a woman.

[52:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh and then when the baker has the affair, it's a bigger like aha moment, and it's a bigger, like her discovering her queerness, and then and then she dies, which is very barrier gaze and very sad, but like give it to me.

[52:32] Harrow: I'm so here for that.

[52:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I like how it's bury your gaze within like two seconds of realizing you're gay.

[52:37] Harrow: Oh, your gay tree.

[52:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[52:42] Harrow: Oh, ultimate barrier gaze a fantasy.

[52:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I can't stop thinking about who I would want the princess to be.

[52:52] Harrow: Who would you cast?

[52:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh my god, I wasn't prepared.

[52:56] Harrow: Um I mean I want Cynthia Erivo in everything.

[53:00] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um I would love a Shoshana Bean prince.

[53:04] Harrow: I mean, Jen Colella prince would work well.

[53:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I mean, I just gotta say it.

[53:11] Harrow: I don't know if she can sing it, but Roberta Kalindra.

[53:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh my gosh.

[53:16] Harrow: Roberta Kalindra's in like a prince costume would just melt people.

[53:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But just like probably acting like Joan.

[53:24] Harrow: Yeah.

[53:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She doesn't even sing, she just like speaks.

[53:28] Harrow: Just walks around like, hey, Agony.

[53:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[53:34] Harrow: Instant gay.

[53:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Instant.

[53:36] Harrow: Oh, I want this.

[53:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, but also superhero for a queer witch.

[53:41] Harrow: Um I'd be in for the witch and the baker's wife.

[53:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And the baker can die.

[53:48] Harrow: Bye, Baker.

[53:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it's kind of the most boring character.

[53:51] Harrow: But it's like Bobby and Company.

[53:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's like the action revolves around this character.

[53:56] Harrow: It's like there for the conduit of the fun stuff.

[54:00] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[54:00] Harrow: Um then I feel like it's queer.

[54:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, oh Milky White.

[54:04] Harrow: Definitely in that production we saw.

[54:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Stole the show, upstaged everybody.

[54:09] Harrow: Yeah.

[54:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I would watch that puppeteer perform Milky White for like two straight hours.

[54:14] Harrow: Oh yeah.

[54:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's its own show.

[54:18] Harrow: I yeah, I feel like if you make if you swap it and you make the baker's wife live and the baker die, then you also have to switch the narrator to be a woman too.

[54:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[54:31] Harrow: Yeah, for sure.

[54:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So then like being haunted by a mother instead of a father.

[54:36] Harrow: Mm-hmm.

[54:37] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[54:37] Harrow: Uh I'd love like a non-binary Jack.

[54:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yeah.

[54:40] Harrow: Yeah.

[54:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I mean, that's like already there for you.

[54:42] Harrow: Yeah.

[54:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like full Peter Pan style.

[54:47] Harrow: Definitely.

[54:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[54:49] Harrow: I mean, I'm for queering everybody, you know.

[54:52] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Everyone should be queer.

[54:53] Harrow: Oh, what about like full predatory lesbian wolf?

[54:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[54:58] Harrow: Like Lea DeLaria.

[55:00] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yes.

[55:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, that would cause some people to not enjoy that part.

[55:09] Harrow: Yeah.

[55:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And little when Little Red is still like very oblivious.

[55:13] Harrow: Oh, and then like I know things now is also then a sexual awakening song.

[55:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: They should all be about sexual awakenings.

[55:20] Harrow: Well, it already is a sexual, but now it's like a queer sexual awakening.

[55:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[55:23] Harrow: Ugh, give this to me.

[55:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I know.

[55:26] Harrow: I'm sure someone's like wanted to do it.

[55:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[55:29] Harrow: I'm sure there's been some who our friend from Book Club who uh was talking about all the licensed versions of Annie, the really strange versions of Annie people are trying to produce.

[55:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Someone's definitely made Milky White gay.

[55:45] Harrow: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Ugh.

[55:47] Harrow: I've never I I cried when Jack said goodbye to Milky White, which I have never done before.

[55:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh and yeah, I I mean Milky White was his pet, and I have strong attachment to my pet now.

[56:02] Harrow: I know. I was like now that we have dogs, the whole time I'm like, Milky White looks like Indie.

[56:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[56:07] Harrow: It doesn't. But like the way it acts is just like a dog.

[56:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[56:11] Harrow: It was oh, I was not expecting that.

[56:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it was really sweet.

[56:16] Harrow: I I loved that so much. I'm curious if this production will, you know, with or without this cast, if 'cause it hasn't been on Broadway.

[56:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Has there been a revival?

[56:27] Harrow: Yeah, there was the one with Laura Benanti and and Vanessa Williams.

[56:31] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[56:32] Harrow: It's been a minute though.

[56:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[56:33] Harrow: That's the one where Laura broke her neck.

[56:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yes.

[56:37] Harrow: Oh.

[56:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I thought oh I thought of that one tonight every time Danae Benton fell. I'm like, oh god, protect her.

[56:43] Harrow: A lot of falling for Cinderella.

[56:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[56:46] Harrow: Yeah.

[56:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Daddy Benton's voice.

[56:49] Harrow: Oh my God. I had never heard her sing before. Uh because I didn't I saw Philippa in Natasha Pier.

[56:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh right.

[56:57] Harrow: No. Her voice is angelic.

[56:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[57:00] Harrow: So good.

[57:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Queen.

[57:03] Harrow: I think she's maybe my favorite witch I've ever seen.

[57:07] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm.

[57:07] Harrow: Very like so different from a lot of them.

[57:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She like really it's like when you see someone perform Shakespeare really well.

[57:16] Harrow: She like found things in it that like were always there but you never noticed it.

[57:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She was the first witch in the opening where I'm like oh I'm afraid of her oh heck yeah.

[57:27] Harrow: She is menacing.

[57:28] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[57:29] Harrow: And like kind of had that maniacal like unhinged yeah throughout it was great.

[57:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Definitely in the second act too she's yeah.

[57:39] Harrow: Alright well I really wanted to talk to this about the show with you and I had to figure out how to fit it into our podcast and we did it.

[57:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, sadly the production is not playing anymore, but I I feel like everyone I know saw it.

[57:53] Harrow: So hopefully that includes all of our listeners.

[57:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. And there's videos online if you have if you want to see clips too.

[57:59] Harrow: And so there's a bunch of shows coming up that we're also excited about. Um one that we have tickets to already and recently just won the Pulitzer Prize.

[58:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh is Fat Ham.

[58:11] Harrow: You were gonna say recently I just won the lottery.

[58:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Big big news, this show I just won the lottery today for the free tickets to the public production.

[58:23] Harrow: Never happened before.

[58:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: First time occurrence.

[58:26] Harrow: And I won a lot of lotteries, I must say.

[58:28] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You do, you're a lucky person.

[58:30] Harrow: I think I do think it's persistence.

[58:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's a numbers game.

[58:33] Harrow: You just have to do it every single day.

[58:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but Fat Ham just won the Pulitzer Prize.

[58:40] Harrow: Congratulations to them and to me. Uh it is a at the public theater, a co-production with the National Black Theater.

[58:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh this show is written by James Imes and directed by Sahim Ali.

[58:52] Harrow: And it's playing right now, May 12th through June 12th.

[58:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And hopefully that will be extended as uh by the time this is released as well.

[59:00] Harrow: I feel like it has to. Got that sweet Pulitzer behind it.

[59:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That's awesome. Um, also coming up right after this podcast comes out, June 15th through July 3rd is the eighth annual Queerly Festival presented by Frigid New York.

[59:17] Harrow: It's gonna be at the Crane Theater.

[59:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So most of these performances will also be available to live stream from home.

[59:23] Harrow: So if you're not able to make it to the theater, you're not in New York, you can check it out from from the comfort of your own air-conditioned home.

[59:31] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So tickets are or a not a non-air conditioned. I don't know, you could go to the library where it's air conditioned and watch it instead.

[59:38] Harrow: Uh tickets are $25 in person, $20 bucks for streaming, and so we'll link to that. But there's a lot of exciting, interesting looking performances that are a part of that festival.

[59:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I want to shout out as Sylvia, uh, it was a trans femme young person who's really embodying the spirit of Sylvia Rivera in her bedroom and kind of like figuring herself out through uh her connection to Sylvia.

[1:00:06] Harrow: And then these two books in burlesque, an evening of lore and allure. This feels right up my alley of burlesque tied to books and and passages from books, and I cannot wait to see this.

[1:00:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And then rivaling that is like what seems right up my alley, even though books are it. This is a hard call.

[1:00:29] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:00:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But Kings.

[1:00:31] Harrow: So this is on Saturday, June 5th. And this is based on I love this in quotes, the great men of history. This is a drag king show of kings as kings, kind of just taking down the whole machismo patriarchy king complex.

[1:00:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but it sounds fantastic, and yeah, I feel like I need to see Drag Churchill real bad.

[1:00:55] Harrow: So yeah, yeah.

[1:00:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh we can we can try and do both.

[1:01:00] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:01:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Super burlesque weekend.

[1:01:04] Harrow: Uh, another one we're very excited about is Soft at MCC. Uh about this, the flowers are in blue. Mr. Isaiah's classroom in the halls of the correctional boarding school where he teaches and in the depths of his students' imaginations. After one boy dies by suicide, Mr. Isaiah is committed to saving the students he teaches from a world that tries to crush their softness.

[1:01:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, and there's a black and brown theater night on Friday, June 17th. This is written by Danye R. Love and directed by Whitney White and playing through June 19th as of this recording. May feature some other relevant podcast people that you'll hear about later in the month.

[1:01:43] Harrow: And also we want to shout out the Criminal Queerness Festival. It's back. We talked to the folks over at National Queer Theater last year. And we're excited to check out the plays this year.

[1:01:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's June 21st through 24th at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. They're be doing stage readings of Courage Rebirth by Mulame Stephen of Uganda and three short plays by Jonathan Opinya Wamokota of Kenya and a full production of Achiro P. Olock's The Survival.

[1:02:17] Harrow: Can't wait to see some of these.

[1:02:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I know it's a busy this always happens. We always want to see so much in June, and there's only so many days in the month.

[1:02:26] Harrow: I know. We should have two months for pride.

[1:02:28] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, at least.

[1:02:30] Harrow: This in October.

[1:02:31] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[1:02:32] Harrow: My favorite Pride Month, yes.

[1:02:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yes.

[1:02:36] Harrow: Uh, and then our action of the F slash queer gives. Um, I am a NYCLU artist ambassador, and I've been trying to key in to more of what they're doing and support their campaigns.

[1:02:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So the NYCLU has a campaign against the strategic response group of the NYPD or the SRG.

[1:02:59] Harrow: And the SRG is a notoriously violent rapid response unit. And despite promises from the department that this unit would be would not be deployed at protests, the SRG is consistently threatened, attacked, and arrested protesters.

[1:03:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I was trained that, like, especially if you go to a protest, these are the cops that are showing up on bikes, and they're often instigating violence, escalating violence at protesters.

[1:03:24] Harrow: And they, you know, put New Yorkers in situations where they're injured and when and they're just exercising their first right amendments.

[1:03:31] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Their current goal in this is to get the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold an oversight committee hearing on the SRG.

[1:03:39] Harrow: So public pressure from city council's constituents will help make this happen.

[1:03:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So you can use the social media toolkit that the NYCLU has put together. We will link to that. So you can demand action from your city council members.

[1:03:53] Harrow: You can also sign the petition to tell city leaders that we must disband the SRG and reinvest their funding in ways that can help and not harm New Yorkers.

[1:04:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And we'll put a link to learn more about this campaign, fact sheets about the SRG. They have a really um interesting timeline of how this uh group came to be.

[1:04:13] Harrow: They also have a walking tour, so you can walk around New York City and listen to audio of people talking about their experiences with the SRG in the spots where it happened.

[1:04:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, so it's a really it's a really great campaign, and you can get involved too. Last but not least, you know, in a month where we can barely fit in any time for queer culture, there's always room for more.

[1:04:34] Harrow: So, Holly, what is your queer culture wreck?

[1:04:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, there's so much, but I I have to shout out the TV show Gentleman Jack on HBO uh that came out with its second season recently. I full disclosure, I have not started it yet, but I love the first season so much.

[1:04:53] Harrow: Um, this is, you know, about the real person and Lister with her fabulous suit outfits and strange hair. Everyone has strange hair.

[1:05:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um but yeah it's it's a good ride. I think I think in the middle of season one I wasn't really sure where it was going or if I would like it, but the ending was pretty fantastic.

[1:05:13] Harrow: Oh stick with it.

[1:05:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. I think I need to rewatch season one before diving into two to just really enjoy it. Um so great. Cannot wait for that.

[1:05:22] Harrow: Um and kind of in the same vein I want to shout out a podcast that I really enjoy called The Gilded Gentleman.

[1:05:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And it is this uh I know this is very I really like New York City history. And so um this podcast host does these like really uh concentrated episodes of things that happened in New York City history.

[1:05:44] Harrow: And this one episode I've listened to twice it's called Man About Town the Story of Murray Hall. Do you know about Murray Hall Ollie?

[1:05:52] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh uh oh need to listen well now you know where Murray Hill the drag drag king gets his name um it's fascinating it is about a Tammany Hall politician super powerful Greenwich village uh a person who like wielded all of this power and uh when he passed away in 1901 it was revealed that when he moved here from Scotland he started living openly as a man.

[1:06:19] Harrow: Um and so it's all about like you know Murray Hall's life and you know he had a wife he had children so there's all of these things that are like very kind of shrouded in mystery that we'll never get you know full uh understanding of how he was able to construct his life here.

[1:06:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um but also it's it's also like this is a little bit of a downer, but it's very interesting. Look at like super early, it's 1901, and you see the like transphobia is out of control with this death and this revelation.

[1:06:57] Harrow: So it's um you know, it might be one of the first famous trans New Yorkers. So it's a really interesting listen.

[1:07:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Very cool.

[1:07:06] Harrow: Yeah, I'll have to check it out.

[1:07:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, tell us your queer culture rex for sure.

[1:07:11] Harrow: Happy pride, everybody.

[1:07:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Happy pride, be safe out there and have fun.

[1:07:17] Harrow: Thanks for listening. If you like, please rate and review us and share us with your friends.

[1:07:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So excited to hear your queer culture recommendations or any of your ideas on how we could queer the canon. You can call us.

[1:07:30] Harrow: Yes, actually, call us and leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251 or send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail.com.

[1:07:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Until next time, keep it queer.

[1:07:44] Harrow: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[1:07:52] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She's never been this bad during like consistent.

[1:07:56] Harrow: You gotta go do something.

[1:07:58] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You gotta go find something to do.

[1:08:01] Harrow: I'm busy.

[1:08:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I'm busy.

[1:08:07] Harrow: Oh my god. Like I I would fall into that trap all the time.

[1:08:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, wait.

[1:08:17] Harrow: Oh, I love that.

[1:08:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm doesn't come up as much.

[1:08:24] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:08:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, okay.

[1:08:28] Harrow: Oh my god, Gentleman Jack.

[1:08:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Sorry.

[1:08:31] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:08:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I haven't started season two, but I I is it out?

[1:08:35] Harrow: Yeah, it started.

[1:08:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:08:38] Harrow: Oh my god.

[1:08:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: What have I been doing?

[1:08:42] Harrow: I know, Game of Thrones.

[1:08:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that's true.