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[0:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Hey queers, welcome back to Thesis on Joan season four, episode three.

[0:04] Meghan: It's Meghan and I today. We're gonna be talking queer shows.

[0:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ+ community and the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective. Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curtain.

[0:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: For many queers, theater has been an escape. And this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Hey Meghan, welcome back.

[0:42] Meghan: This is Harrow. They/them.

[0:44] Meghan: Hey, it's Meghan Cheer.

[0:46] Meghan: Yay, we're back.

[0:47] Meghan: And we've had a couple episodes go out already this season, but this one's just us, so I'm excited to get to talk to you a little more.

[0:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I know. We, as always, the luck of having all these wonderful interviews is fall in our laps. So we had to get those out to everyone first before we had a chance to check in.

[1:04] Meghan: Yeah. It's been a while since we've been able to share some updates about our lives. How are you doing? How were the holidays in the winter for you?

[1:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it feels like we were just talking about how it's already like a million degrees in our apartment. So it's weird that, you know, summer seems like it's getting close and the dreaded sweaty time of pride.

[1:25] Meghan: Yeah, I feel like in the past three or four months since the holidays, I haven't seen as much theater as I thought I would. I don't know. We can talk more about that. But yeah, I feel like I've mostly just been kind of working job stuff and finishing up my grad degree.

[1:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I'm glad that we're having this conversation now because it's making me realize that I'm not really making good on some of my theater resolutions for the year.

[1:51] Meghan: Same, same. I wasn't seeing a lot of theater over the holidays and in like January, February, and then I feel like March came and then I like went hard. Like I started playing all the lotteries every day.

[2:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm having extremely good lottery luck, knock on wood.

[2:07] Meghan: You always do.

[2:09] Meghan: But it's like I'm, it's wild. Like I won three lotteries this last week.

[2:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my gosh. Wait, what lotteries did you win?

[2:17] Meghan: Uh, I won Life of Pi, Dancing, and Shucked, but I only went to Life of Pi and Shucked or Life of Pi and Dancing. I didn't actually go to Shucked.

[2:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, but I'm really holding out for Sweeney Todd and Parade. Like those are my big, big dreams.

[2:31] Meghan: Oh, I gotta start playing.

[2:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[2:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So yeah, I've been seeing a lot of theater. My intention last year, at the end of last year, was like to only pay for theater written by queer or people of color, and that is obviously not happening. But I'm also like, I gotta take the lottery when I can.

[2:49] Meghan: Yeah.

[2:50] Meghan: Yeah, especially for things you really want to see that often have queer or POCs in the shows.

[2:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes, exactly.

[2:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Still supporting their work.

[3:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Things really changed for me over the holidays. I am like now Holly and just living my life in this new phase, and it's been kind of lovely and hard and wonderful and all the things. So I'm excited to like get back and focus on the podcast now too.

[3:19] Meghan: Yeah, always it's good to kind of reconnect and recenter here and also get to fan out over our favorite people who keep wanting to talk to us, which is great.

[3:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We are very lucky. Did you set any intentions for this year? And how are those going besides your theater intentions?

[3:36] Meghan: Yeah.

[3:36] Meghan: Um, well, my theater intention is failing because I was reading more plays, and I haven't read a single play this year. So we're gonna work on that.

[3:44] Meghan: Um, that's actually a lie. I've read Macbeth, but only 'cause I'm teaching Macbeth. So I don't think that counts.

[3:50] Meghan: But yeah, I think something that I wanted to focus on this year was trying to be more like happy, like in the moment where I am. I feel like I love planning. Like planning is one of my favorite things, but I think that often takes away from like actually enjoying what's happening now.

[4:09] Meghan: Um, so I'm doing one of those like kind of funny one second a day videos and it's actually been helpful 'cause it makes me think about like, oh, what's gonna be like a really great moment today that I want to capture and be able to look back on.

[4:23] Meghan: Um, Busy’s in at least three of them. So yeah, some good appearances in the videos.

[4:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Wait, how do I look at them? I wanna watch them.

[4:31] Meghan: Well, I don't have 'em up yet.

[4:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[4:34] Meghan: So probably do like a big one at the end of the year.

[4:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh, that's awesome. Next time I see you I'll show you though. It's really fun and it, you know, just going back and looking at it, it makes me realize like, you know, I don't know. February always seems like a blur of nothing. And I look back, I'm like, look at all these cool things I did in February. I don't even remember, you know.

[4:52] Meghan: That's awesome.

[4:53] Meghan: Yeah.

[4:54] Meghan: How about you?

[4:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I had a whole, I have a whole list of intentions for this year, but I think my main one is focusing on expanding my friend community. I'm looking especially for POC, queer, fat, trans friends.

[5:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: If you fit all those, please hit me up.

[5:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Or even just some of them.

[5:13] Meghan: Yeah, I feel like I have a decent community here, but like I, yeah, I wanna like diversify and like find folks who share identities with me and have like deeper connections in that way.

[5:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like you've done a great job of that. You've been going to so many amazing things and I, yeah, it's awesome.

[5:31] Meghan: Yeah, I've been going to a lot of events, like social friend-making events. So if you see me there, please say hi.

[5:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it's been nice trying to connect to people.

[5:40] Meghan: Awesome.

[5:40] Meghan: Yeah. Oh, and I've also been reading our book club books even though I haven't been able to come to book club. They've been good this year.

[5:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[5:45] Meghan: And we've got some good choices. I'm gonna talk about one of them later in the episode.

[5:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Awesome.

[5:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. So I know we have a couple shows we wanted to talk about. We got to see Dark Disabled Stories and Fat Ham.

[5:58] Meghan: I'm so excited to talk about both of these with you. I love that we somehow just didn't talk about Fat Ham even though we both saw it off Broadway.

[6:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I know we've shouted it out but we never had a full discussion about it.

[6:09] Meghan: Yeah, I think I saw it like a long time before you did. And so when we had a show discussion I was just like, Meghan, you have to see it but I don't want to spoil anything.

[6:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: No spoilers.

[6:18] Meghan: Yeah.

[6:18] Meghan: And then we didn't have a chance to like check in after you saw it.

[6:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and it was also a summer show which are always kind of like weird like, you know, you're doing so many other things in the summer. So but wow, I'm thrilled this made it to Broadway and that we got to see it.

[6:33] Meghan: Yeah, me too and it felt so strange to walk into the American Airlines theater and see the set and this and like how much it's grown since the public.

[6:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It just felt massive comparatively.

[6:47] Meghan: Yeah.

[6:48] Meghan: And you know, I think that was my biggest, um, well just to catch folks up before we get too into it, Fat Ham is a queer retelling of like a loose retelling of Shakespeare's Hamlet that takes place. It said there's a really funny note in the playbill about where it takes place. It was like either North Carolina, South Carolina, but not further south.

[7:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's a whole other thing.

[7:11] Meghan: Yeah. Kind of like the mid-south.

[7:14] Meghan: Uh, so Fat Ham is written by James Ijames, and it stars an incredible cast, which I'm sure we're gonna get more into their performances.

[7:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But, um, as I mentioned, we got a chance to see it off Broadway at the public, which was in their thrust theater space.

[7:31] Meghan: So I don't know about you, but that was kind of my biggest question coming into this, and you know, how was this gonna transfer from a show that used the thrust setup so well to like a straight proscenium?

[7:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and I think it was successful. I don't think that's an easy thing to do.

[7:48] Meghan: Yeah, I was surprised how much they used like the aisles in the Broadway production. It felt like they were coming through the VOMs of like the public.

[7:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[7:58] Meghan: And I was surprised how much they interacted with the audience. I actually couldn't remember if it was that interactive at the public.

[8:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I had the same question, actually, because there was so much like fourth wall breaking and so much like referencing like they're here, and I do remember that from the public, the like the fact that we're like at the barbecue with them.

[8:16] Meghan: But it felt like more direct.

[8:19] Meghan: Maybe it's because they're like, this might sound weird, but they're like elevated looking down on us rather than us elevated looking down on them.

[8:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So it kind of creates a different power dynamic with the cast as well.

[8:30] Meghan: Um, which I thought worked well.

[8:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[8:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I also wondered because I'm like, oh, you see this less on Broadway, so it stands out more in my mind than like it's like, yeah, or at the public. Of course, they're like talking to us and like interacting with us more.

[8:43] Meghan: But yeah, that definitely stood out to me, especially when they said, oh, there's white people in the audience.

[8:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I think something that, um, we can get into more, but I was thinking of other shows I've seen like A Strange Loop or shows I've seen. I know I bring up Barbecue that happened at the public a while ago.

[9:04] Meghan: But um, or like Booty Candy. I'm thinking about shows that are very much made like by queer black folks for queer black folks. And the audience when I was there was kind of your regular, you know, audience in the Broadway house.

[9:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And there was definitely some moments where there was a lot of laughing happening, and I wasn't sure if it was like a joke that I, that was for me or that I was allowed to be a part of.

[9:30] Meghan: Um, and I always like that power dynamic, right? Because it made me like question like who am I like laughing at this moment.

[9:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I'm thinking of things like kind of the big performances of the um Rabbi, the mom of uh Opal and Larry, like her kind of like exaggerated character, right?

[9:50] Meghan: And I'm like, I don't know, like this is not for me, like this is for the community the show was made for, but it calls into question like what do you laugh at and what does that laughter mean in a show like this as a white audience member.

[10:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. I remember seeing this last summer and I had just seen A Strange Loop and I'm like, wow, what a conversation to be having in the theater world right now with A Strange Loop, Fat Ham, and then also Soft was playing, which I didn't, and sadly I didn't get to see, but that's Donja R. Love's play that was like specifically about black boys and detention and the, you know, softness around that, and that was such a key word in this play too, about Larry saying yeah, he wanted to be soft.

[10:34] Meghan: Yeah, and I just want all of those characters to like meet and have it like Juicy, Usher, and like the characters from Soft to like talk and have a conversation and be friends.

[10:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Crossover episode.

[10:45] Meghan: Well, like, yeah, that's the fanfic we need people to write. Share it with us.

[10:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Probably someone's already done it.

[10:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I will say though, that what I, um, what's so interesting, especially thinking about Juicy compared to some of those characters, is how much Juicy, like the journey of this show is not Juicy figuring out his queerness. He's kind of, he's already there, you know what I mean? And it's just kind of a part of the family dynamic, and the story is more the family tensions and kind of that like trauma you carry with you from your family.

[11:20] Meghan: But it's for Juicy at least, it's not so much a coming out situation.

[11:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's interesting because the person I saw it with was like he never identifies himself as queer in the show. Like he never says I'm gay, he never says I'm queer. Like everyone just like puts that on him.

[11:37] Meghan: Even like Larry and especially like the two older men, like his dad and his uncle.

[11:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But she was wondering, like, oh, is he actually queer or is he more like asexual? Because yeah, he never like really identifies himself.

[11:51] Meghan: And even in the moment with Larry when he asks Larry to kiss him, was that more of just like a dare to see if he'd actually do it rather than like him actually like being interested?

[12:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Right.

[12:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's true. I never thought about that.

[12:04] Meghan: Because I mean, we go in with our own assumptions as audience too. It makes you question like, you know, some of these characters that are doing the labeling of Juicy, you know, they're not characters that you want to identify with, but you're doing the same thing they're doing.

[12:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[12:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We got sent the script as press folks, and I was reading through it today, and it does like clearly identify in the script that he's gay in the like notes about his character and the setting information.

[12:31] Meghan: But yeah, I am curious like what it would be like to play with that if he wasn't actually queer.

[12:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[12:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[12:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And what does that say about, I feel like it's interesting too when you consider Hamlet, like because that character is so like brooding and mysterious and like doesn't really want to let people in, and it's like a very different queer version of being that character.

[12:54] Meghan: It's like you're all putting your ideas, you're projecting your ideas onto me. With Hamlet, it's just like the anger and the rage, but with this, it's more than that. Didn't we just talk to, was it Sarah who said that she wanted to do like queer Hamlet with Laartis and him Hamlet like having a thing?

[13:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's okay. We need more.

[13:14] Meghan: Yeah, we can do more of these. I think it really speaks to the incredible layered performance of Marcel Spears, though, is Juicy because that character's on stage the entire show.

[13:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I think they go off like for the one costume change near the end, and they're just kind of like this presence the entire time.

[13:33] Meghan: And you never really feel, at least I never really felt like I had figured that character out in a good way.

[13:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I think I did see him more as like an observer this time around, a little bit like Alice in Becdeli, and just like kind of being the outside person and like hearing how all these people interact with him and treat him and like taking a lot of abuse and even like love and outreach and just trying to like survive through it.

[14:03] Meghan: And you could hear, you know, he talks about a lot of trauma that he experienced from his father. You can see it coming from his uncle, and just being like someone that people identify as queer and black in the world.

[14:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it's a lot going on there.

[14:17] Meghan: Yeah.

[14:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I love Larry so much.

[14:19] Meghan: Oh, Larry. What a like wonderful character. God, your heart just like breaks for Larry.

[14:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I remember how strongly and deeply I like fell in love with him for the first time I saw it. And that one scene with Juicy, like how quickly it—because if you see him and you're like, oh, this like military man, he's so stiff. Like I have, you know, nothing in common, or like it's hard for me to like find common ground with him, and then immediately you're just like melting.

[14:52] Meghan: Yeah, he's like the peacekeeper, and then when he finally like asked for something for himself, it just like all falls apart.

[14:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I was curious to see how the audience would react to that character because he does kind of do that quick shift of like, you know, directly saying, like, I want to be soft like you, like, you know, wants to kiss Juicy, and as always, you know, things play different at the public than they do on Broadway.

[15:15] Meghan: But the audience seemed to be with it, and you know, they definitely celebrated his triumph at the end, too.

[15:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[15:23] Meghan: I did feel like the reveal drag moment at the public was a lot more celebratory than we saw.

[15:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I don't really know why. I think the thrust makes a more intimate experience, and the house was just a lot smaller.

[15:39] Meghan: I still love that moment. But they've also been using that moment in the advertising.

[15:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Have you noticed that?

[15:44] Meghan: Oh no, I didn't.

[15:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, so which is weird to me. Like, I get that they're trying to show like this is a joyous show. It's hard to do that with the other footage, but it kind of ruins the big reveal.

[15:58] Meghan: Huh. No, I haven't noticed that.

[16:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I want to talk about the other queer characters in the show. So there's also Opal who's like the Ophelia role.

[16:06] Meghan: But they kind of switch, right? Like Larry becomes more of the Ophelia person.

[16:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Ophelia, yeah.

[16:12] Meghan: But she's like an out—I guess she's not out, but she's like very solidly queer in the show, talking about liking girls. She's in a very frilly pink dress that she clearly hates.

[16:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yep.

[16:23] Meghan: I would love to see Opal like dressed in what makes her feel like the most empowered and the most herself. I feel like it would be like hardcore like battle combat gear.

[16:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[16:36] Meghan: Oh, the moment I love with her the most in the public was different, when they're all like, oh, we're all supposed to kill each other now.

[16:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[16:44] Meghan: And they all like arm themselves. And she brings—she takes out like the barbecue supplies, right?

[16:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That are actually could be weapons.

[16:52] Meghan: And for the public, she did this like shop of like a streamer that was hung horizontally between the posts, and it was so dramatic and funny, and they didn't have that streamer in this production, and so it just felt—it just fell flat for me because I wanted that like epic moment for her.

[17:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You were waiting for that, yeah.

[17:12] Meghan: That is a funny moment. And I mean that's the moment that is my favorite thing about this play is when they so directly talk to the audience and they're like, hey, this is gonna end terribly and we're just gonna choose to not have that future for ourselves.

[17:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[17:28] Meghan: And so it's—I feel like we're always asking for like, you know, queer joy and like queer stories that are more empowering and god, this just gives that to you directly.

[17:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and they feel like in the script it talks about how they all feel so much lighter and like joyful at the end of it, which you can kind of see why with the death of like the two patriarchs of this family because there's a lot of really toxic stuff that goes on throughout the play with Rev, aka Claudius, and then he comes back in and it's like he's not actually dead anyway.

[18:02] Meghan: Yeah, it was like a whole comedy bit and it's—yeah, you do like—I don't know, you're able to like see them as the actors in the role, but it's kind of that weird level where it's like they're actors being actors like playing a playing a role.

[18:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Did you have a favorite moment from the show?

[18:20] Meghan: The scene with Juicy and Larry, the part where they all arm themselves because you're like what the fuck is about to happen, and then yeah, the drag reveal and the like celebratory song after that I think are my favorites.

[18:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: What about you?

[18:36] Meghan: I love the karaoke creep moment so much. Like it's just like—I think the first time I when I saw it at the public, it almost made me cry because it was like this, you know, everyone is putting all these labels and assumptions on this of this person, and then we get like a dream moment where they get to like be their own rock star and kind of let their feelings out, and I love the kind of like dream ballet of it.

[19:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, no, I do love that moment too, and there are so many heartbreaking moments too, like when you find out he can't go back to school.

[19:02] Meghan: Oh, when he outs Larry—oh, worst moment.

[19:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And like you yet you still end the show like kind of—I don't know, I still end the show liking Juicy.

[19:19] Meghan: But like he does a arguably unforgivable thing.

[19:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[19:24] Meghan: I remember really gasping when that happened the first time.

[19:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I kind of forgot.

[19:29] Meghan: Yeah, the whole audience like gasped.

[19:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I forgot too.

[19:31] Meghan: I have like no memory.

[19:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I was equally surprised this time around.

[19:36] Meghan: Yeah.

[19:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I also thought the special effects were more impressive at the public, probably just because it was more intimate and small.

[19:42] Meghan: But the moment when Pat, he comes up from the table at the public, there was like a folding table on the patio, and he just like rose up out of it and you could like see under the table.

[19:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I thought that was really cool.

[19:56] Meghan: And then they didn't do that. He came like out of the floor, which I'm—we know how that works.

[20:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, yeah, that's true.

[20:02] Meghan: 'Cause the whole time I'm like, oh, they're just using the traps because they have traps, where at that other space you really had to get creative.

[20:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[20:09] Meghan: There is some magic there.

[20:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[20:11] Meghan: I still don't—I guess it's a trap thing where the body is at the end of the uncle or the body disappears and they pull the sheet off and it's not there.

[20:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's still a good effect though for sure.

[20:21] Meghan: Yeah, definitely.

[20:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But yeah, the book is just so amazing though. Like the—I feel like it goes to show because our favorite scenes are like actual just conversations that happen.

[20:31] Meghan: Yeah.

[20:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was curious about the script of like how much like just physical description was in there, and so much of it is just like the dialogue, and I think shout out to the director Saheem Ali for the choices that he was making too.

[20:47] Meghan: Which I don't know if I've seen any of their direction before.

[20:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So they directed A Free Man of Color, assistant director, but excited for more of their work as well.

[20:57] Meghan: Yeah.

[20:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I thought it was interesting, like the generational divide in terms of queerness, like all the young folks it seems like were queer.

[21:06] Meghan: Oh, I don't know about TO though.

[21:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then all the adults were—seemed straight.

[21:12] Meghan: TO is whatever TO wants to be.

[21:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[21:16] Meghan: Also an incredible character that comes in right when you forget that character even exists.

[21:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[21:21] Meghan: It's just like, alright, we gotta lighten this up a little bit.

[21:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So much fun.

[21:25] Meghan: And has that wacky—what is it? A gingerbread—the gingerbread catalog.

[21:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: The woman next to me was just like, oh Jesus.

[21:39] Meghan: I think she liked it, but there were a few moments in the show it felt like they were breaking character and like laughing because things were going a little wrong.

[21:48] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You had that?

[21:49] Meghan: I guess that's built in because we had it too.

[21:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Unless they're always like kind of encouraged to ad lib that, but it made you feel even more like a participant in the show though I like that a lot.

[22:00] Meghan: Yeah, they were like Juicy was having a hard time getting the helium out of the balloon, and then they were kind of like teasing him for that.

[22:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I saw it—somebody took like too much helium.

[22:10] Meghan: Like taking them a minute just—but yeah, it's hard to like describe to people why it's such a fun joyous experience, but I guess just trust us it is.

[22:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was just going back to like the generational difference, like why—what was the choice in only making the younger folks queer or like out in the play queer?

[22:34] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[22:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Because Rabbi has a moment where she reveals like she worked at a strip club and that's how her husband found her.

[22:41] Meghan: Yeah.

[22:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But none of the others, I guess Rev murdered Pap, so that's like his secret.

[22:46] Meghan: And I also just feel like the whole shtick of the uncle and the mom is they kind of have to be like aggressively heterosexual.

[22:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Because like that's kind of like, even in like original Hamlet, right? They're like aggressively like able to connect and Hamlet's not.

[23:05] Meghan: So there needs to be like some kind of foil between that relationship and what's happening with what Juicy.

[23:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's kind of how I read it.

[23:13] Meghan: Yeah.

[23:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And do you think—we've talked about drag moments and shows before, but I think we both said that like this felt like the most earned drag moment you've seen.

[23:23] Meghan: I think out of all the shows I've seen, this is the most like genuine, and also like it progresses the story to where the writer wants it to land.

[23:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You know, it's like without that moment, you have a totally different show, right?

[23:36] Meghan: Yeah, for sure.

[23:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But other shows take note. If your drag moment isn't as earned as Fat Ham, please reconsider.

[23:45] Meghan: So great. Fat Ham is currently scheduled to run through June 24th, so you can still get tickets. It's at the American Airlines Theater, it's not a Roundabout production.

[23:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was not shocked that it was not a Roundabout production.

[23:57] Meghan: Yeah.

[23:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But yeah, tickets are available. And I'm sure we're gonna be talking about Fat Ham a lot more.

[24:02] Meghan: Come Tony award season.

[24:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I hope so anyway.

[24:06] Meghan: Yeah, I want them to win all the awards.

[24:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: As they should.

[24:10] Meghan: Okay, so in the fine Thesis on Joan tradition, we are going to talk about a show that is near and dear to our hearts because Ryan J. Haddad is the writer and star of it, but unfortunately, you cannot see it anymore, but we still want to share.

[24:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like we've done this with a couple former guests. It's like sadly it's over, but we can't let this pass. We have to talk about it.

[24:32] Meghan: So we're going to be talking about Dark Disabled Stories, which just wrapped up its run at the Public Theater a few weeks ago.

[24:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Do we just want to start with how much we love Ryan?

[24:41] Meghan: I guess, yeah. Like, well, that's the thing when I texted you, Harrow, after this, of like, I already knew I was going, like, I already went in expecting this to be incredible because it's Ryan, you know.

[24:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I went in with very high expectations and they were incredibly exceeded.

[24:58] Meghan: Yeah.

[24:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was super curious because it had more than just Ryan. I think because we are you single and it was just him, like seeing other folks, actors in the show was very exciting to me and like what that format would look like.

[25:12] Meghan: And it was like amazing to think back to what a little over a year ago when we interviewed Ryan and Ryan was telling us about the show.

[25:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And it's just like amazing that the reality of it is so much like grander and like it was amazing. Not, you know, not that I didn't expect amazing things, but it was really cool to see something that was just like kind of pitched to us as a concept take shape on stage.

[25:39] Meghan: And I remember him sharing like all the accessibility efforts they were putting into the show, and immediately right off the bat, when you get there, you see that and you feel it.

[25:49] Meghan: Um, you know, from the masks, there were masks on every seat, you know, in the program. There was a note asking folks, you know, to think of all the different accessibility needs for people in the space and to please wear a mask, even though the public doesn't, you know, mandate masks for their space. There was like a movement area.

[26:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, that was amazing. I've never seen that before.

[26:11] Meghan: Yeah. In the TDF autism-friendly performances, there's like a room you can quiet it.

[26:16] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[26:17] Meghan: But I've never seen something. I think that was the I mean, I'm sure it's not new, right? I just am not in access as much as I should be. But actually having a space where you can do what you need to do and not miss the show. I'm like, oh, I'm this is amazing. This exists. Every show should have this.

[26:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: For sure. Let's see what else was there. There was the audio describer who was like describing all the physical movements. That was great. Did you use the text the um the tactile stuff?

[26:48] Meghan: The tactile stuff, yeah. Totally missed it. Was it in the lobby?

[26:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So it was right before the movement space, and you could like feel what the material was on the columns and the pillows of like the words that spelled out dark disabled stories, so you could like touch it. It was very cool.

[27:03] Meghan: I came in through the house right side, so maybe I missed it.

[27:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh, okay. Yeah, it wasn't very big, it was just a small thing. Cool. That was cool.

[27:12] Meghan: That's awesome. I wish I would have touched things.

[27:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's very squishy.

[27:18] Meghan: Yeah. But yeah, I thought it was very cool to see in a note, like when they list all the access. Um, it's like you don't have to ask for anything because it's already been thought about. Um, so I love to if we get to talk to Ryan again, I'd love to know like what the process of that was to make sure they didn't and not miss anything, but make sure they like covered all their bases throughout the whole show, you know, because sometimes I would just think about it. I'd be like, Oh, okay, is this how is this being accessed on different levels at this point? And it was always like I don't know, it was so well executed and thought out in that regard. Obviously, it's Ryan.

[27:56] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I was struck by like how seamless it all felt, and like when Ryan was describing it to us, I'm like, oh, that's so different than what you know we normally experience in the theater, but it wasn't like disruptive at all. Like it just felt very natural, and I'm like, Oh, this could be at every show, and it wouldn't be a big deal. Like it'd be a big deal for the people who could then access it, but you know, for folks who aren't used to it seeing it, it's yeah, it's very seamless.

[28:24] Meghan: Yeah, I think if anything, it added to my experience. Like, I really enjoyed the um audio describer telling us about the set and the characters coming on stage. It was almost like a meditative like way into the show that I think sometimes you do on your own when you get to a theater, but oftentimes you know you're running from the bathroom, you just got off the train, you like pop down and the show starts. So I liked that as like a um I know it was an access tool, but as like a theatrical technique too. I thought it was really effective.

[28:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I think it points out things that I maybe wouldn't have even noticed, you know, about yeah, especially about the set. Like you get it's kind of like uh image descriptions that I really enjoyed too that you get like additional details that maybe aren't clear from just looking at someone or something that was really nice, like background information to have.

[29:12] Meghan: Yeah. And so the setup for this is we have Ryan on stage playing the character Ryan, and then we have um Dickie playing the character of Ryan alongside Ryan, not interpreting for Ryan. And then we have an off-stage voice who is the um audio describer, but also comes in as a character of their own.

[29:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I don't I've never seen a show with this kind of setup before. I don't know if this reminded you of anything.

[29:42] Meghan: I definitely seen uh like the ASL performances of shows and where the interpreters are like in the front of the house and there's usually a few of them, and each like has a different character they're kind of shadowing. But yeah, this was the first time I think I've seen it like on stage, and I've never seen an audio describer before like that.

[30:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I liked that they made it really clear early on through the audio describer that like Dickie is not an interpreter, you know, the audio describer is not an interpreter. This is like it's different thing. Um during the show, I would sometimes just watch Dickie or just watch Ryan, you know, to see like what the and it's you're still getting the show experience, and it just like enhances it by having them both there. It was really cool.

[30:29] Meghan: Yeah, and I loved Dickie, the the actor, the performer. Like Dickie is shadowing Ryan and is doing ASL for everything Ryan is saying in the show, basically. Uh, and then they kind of switch off when Dickie is speaking. Ryan voices what he's signing. And I just love that actor. I felt like he was so adorable, and his the emotions that register on his face were were so clear, and uh I loved watching him.

[30:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[30:59] Meghan: Yeah, it was very cool to see like you know, Ryan has such a distinct, amazing comedic voice and delivery. And Dickie is such a great match for him. Like he has that delivery through his signing and through his like body movements, so it's like they felt like one character.

[31:16] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[31:17] Meghan: Yeah, and they're both wearing sweatshirts that say Ryan on it. That and then when Dickie comes forward and does like his own part of the show, he takes off and then he has a cute little Dicky t-shirt on with hearts on it.

[31:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: With hearts on it, yeah.

[31:33] Meghan: Right. I love the breaks like that, where you know, talking a little bit more about the format of the story, it's these vignettes uh about experience experiences of being disabled and living in New York or living in New York with a disability. And I loved the like breaks where it was like Ryan was telling a story, and then was like, this is only as far as my experience can take me. And then Dickie or Alejandro, who played the interpreter would step in and be like, Well, here's here's what it is from my perspective. And I thought that was a really cool way of like literally showing making space for other people's experiences.

[32:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[32:12] Meghan: And such great like theatrical moments of reveal too, because you didn't know Alejandra was gonna be an actor in the show too. You thought, you know, she was just the audio describer. And so it was really exciting when when they roll up to the stage and like share their story too. It was kind of like a red record scratch moment, like, wait a minute. I gotta get in there.

[32:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And you know, we talked about this in the past, but Ryan has such a great way of like telling you a story, and he takes you to a place that you never thought that story was gonna take you. And I felt like that was one example of a moment where you know, he's telling the story about how difficult it was for him to get out of the train station, and he's not even permitted to finish that story because Alejandra comes in is like, I got it, I gotta cut in. Like this this is my story, actually. It was great.

[33:06] Meghan: Yeah.

[33:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: The yeah, the moments that really I think stuck out to me outside of the stories where after the first story, Ryan is like, Are you pitying me? Don't pity me. If you are, like, get out of the fucking theater. So it really like set the tone of the show of like, I'm sharing these stories that are hard, but it's not to for you to pity me. And I felt it was a great callin moment, I think for me, and also just to like reframe for myself like I'm fucking angry at all these stories that he's telling, and mostly because of how our world is just so inaccessible and so ill prepared of supporting folks with disability.

[34:47] Meghan: Um yeah, so I really appreciate that moment.

[34:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, definitely. And in that moment when Ryan says something along the lines of like this is for us, like this is for our community, the disabled community. Like, if you find something in it, great, you know, but this is this show is not really for you, but welcome. And I was like, that's yeah, that kind of set the tone for me too, as I was engaging with the stories of how I should be framing it as like an outsider with the immensely privileged welcome to to look into this world.

[34:55] Meghan: Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of ways in, I think, for every audience member to connect with it, and um it's like impossible not to relate to Ryan, right? Because he tells stories is and it also makes you well, it made me by extension Ryan does this amazing thing where he like kind of lays bare and i examines his own bias and and so it takes I don't know for me it's always like five levels of like because then I was like you know I'm feeling empathy and I'm feeling upset for Ryan in this situation and then Ryan reveals that like he's kind of being judgy and then you're like I don't even know what to do with that piece of information.

[35:40] Meghan: I mean the one story where he's talking about when he fell and he needed help getting up and the only person who came to help him appeared to be someone who was unhoused, someone who might have, you know, not been in clean clothes. And that feeling of like he was like, oh, I just like I need the help but I don't want this person to touch me, you know? And that like his vulnerability in that story was like made me question so many things about myself.

[36:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Sure.

[36:09] Meghan: And just like you know brings home like how human folks are and how disability is not is definitely not a monolith and like yeah I think Ryan does such a good job of bringing really complex thought and feeling to his stories.

[36:48] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And you know like his feelings of guilt and complicity in this and yeah it it's all um yeah so thoughtful and nuanced and doesn't let himself off the hook at all either.

[37:01] Meghan: No yeah and the audience is with him like you know at the end of the day Ryan is also like he says I I'm a very funny person. I can't not be funny. You know so like it was just really fun to be in an audience where ever all 99 people are like with every laugh you know they're gasping at things like I can't believe this is happening. It it felt like a very like participatory experience between performer and audience.

[37:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like one thing this is so selfish I was thinking as I was watching the show do you ever like read a book by an author that you love and then you're like oh man they just came out with this book and that means I have to wait so long for another book like that's how I that's how I felt watching this show because I was like oh this is what Ryan's gonna be doing and then I won't get to see anything new from Ryan in a while but I'm happy for Ryan's I mean how are you single was only what a year or two a year.

[37:56] Meghan: That's true.

[37:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah very prolific yeah I feel like he'll be back soon.

[38:01] Meghan: Mm-hmm. I hope this the show continues to be a thing. I don't know if I'm sure he's already got offers to do it other places but yeah yeah it's it's urgent without you know we always talk about the why and the why now and I there's no argument against why this is not important right now.

[38:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Exactly. Yeah I'd be curious like is it always with Dickie and Alejandra or like do other actors swap in it the you know the characters match the the real actor's name so do they tell different stories if it's different actors we talked about this a bit yesterday through text of like oh I wonder how much of these stories are like actually from Alejandra and Dickie or how much did Ryan write.

[38:46] Meghan: Yeah, both stories I think were so moving and touching and felt really personal, but that could be just because they're really, really good actors.

[38:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's a good question if like as it moves on would things change because I know like when they did what the Constitution means to me, like someone who is not Heidi Shrek was in that show but telling Heidi Shrek's family stories.

[39:06] Meghan: You know, it's always kind of a—I mean they're actors, they can do it, but yeah, it felt very personal.

[39:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[39:13] Meghan: I love Dickie's story so much. Um, amazing, he told a story about meeting someone—what state was he in?

[39:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: He was in Utah.

[39:22] Meghan: He was in Utah, met someone on Scruff and like set up a very kinky encounter with this guy who was a cop and like gonna take him to a barn—like a literal barn.

[39:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Terrifying, yeah. Oh my, there was so—the tone of the show, of the story, sets up, it's like a horror story. Um, and there's actually like a really lovely twist at the end of it that I don't want to ruin, but um, yeah, I was so terrified for him and worried for him and yeah, like the twists and I was like, oh, why was I so afraid? I mean, there were definitely huge red flags, right? Like, oh yeah, I was like, why is this moving forward? This is the—especially the like Dickie asks for a safe word and the guy's like, you don't need—oh, you don't need a safe word with me. Oh my god, I like shrunk into myself—nightmare fuel.

[40:18] Meghan: Yeah, there was a couple stories that—that story and then a couple that Ryan was telling. I'm like, well, just remember they're still here. So they're telling you the story, so they made it through.

[40:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[40:31] Meghan: And I feel like that is such a like a separate queer culture that I am not a part of, like kind of like app hookup culture. Like I do, like I do take part in that.

[40:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes, but it's not as much as like I'm gonna go to this stranger's house.

[40:46] Meghan: Not the Scruff, Grindr way.

[40:48] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. And I—that feels very scary to me. And I'm sure it's exciting in a way too.

[40:55] Meghan: Yeah, I mean it sounds like it was from their perspective. There is a couple stories with Ryan too. I'm like even the brunch story he tells, which is horrible on so many levels. But starting from the beginning where I'm like, you let him come to your apartment first so he knows where you live. You know, I'm like, I would never. Yeah, gotta question my own feelings of safety and suspend them for these stories.

[41:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[41:22] Meghan: It's funny because I feel like the queer culture I'm a part of is very—it's so focused on safety and consent and like taking care of each other that, yeah, it just feels very wild to like that be the world of someone else.

[41:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it gave me some anxiety for sure.

[41:38] Meghan: Yeah, but yeah, we recommend that people see it if they have a chance to see it in any form.

[41:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think it'll be back or it'll be around.

[41:47] Meghan: It should be, yes. And I just want all the practices that were shown here, just how like seamless and easy it can be. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't easy, I'm sure it took a lot of work and like pushing, but I would just love to see that in more of theater spaces.

[42:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, normalize it.

[42:05] Meghan: Yes, exactly. Follow Ryan on Instagram if you haven't.

[42:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We can link to Ryan's Instagram in our episode.

[42:11] Meghan: Yeah, we love Ryan.

[42:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm. So let's talk about some shows we are hoping to see in the next couple months. We have Michael R. Jackson's White Girl in Danger is now off-Broadway at Second Stage.

[42:23] Meghan: I can't wait to see this. And I've heard like amazing things from everyone who's gone so far. I asked one of my friends that went, I'm like, is it queer? Should we be talking about it? And they're like, can you imagine Michael R. Jackson writing a show that wasn't queer?

[42:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Touche. Yes, yes.

[42:37] Meghan: Good point. And what else are you excited to see?

[42:42] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh, and I'm excited to see Shucked. It doesn't sound like it's super queer, but Alex Newell is in it, and I'm very excited to see them perform in anything. They've got like the most incredible voice. And again, heard nothing but great things from people who have seen it.

[42:56] Meghan: Yes. What are you excited to see?

[42:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You know, it's like tricky. I felt like there was a lot of things I'm looking forward to, but like sadly, most of them are not queer.

[43:04] Meghan: It's like your ticket dilemma.

[43:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Like I know we're both excited to see Parade and Sweeney Todd, hopefully. And Sweeney Todd does have um the actor Hennessy Winkler in it, who was on tour playing opposite Sis in Oklahoma. So we have at least an openly trans performer in that show.

[43:25] Meghan: I'm also excited to see Thanksgiving Play. This is like a cheat that it's queer because Darcy Carden said it. I couldn't even like say that straight. The queers love Darcy Carden.

[43:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: The queers love Darcy Carden.

[43:40] Meghan: I do. Um, yeah, she's amazing. I can't believe it's her Broadway debut either. Like, I mean, hopefully more Darcy Carden on Broadway.

[43:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I also really like Katie Finneran too, who's in it. And Larissa Fast Horse—amazing writer. And this is a play that I've read, but I've never had a chance to actually see performed. So would like to see it.

[44:01] Meghan: And that's playing on Broadway.

[44:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's a Second Stage production.

[44:05] Meghan: Wow, we're really high on Second Stage.

[44:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's playing through the beginning in June. I saw it, I got to see it at Player's Horizons, but I'm excited to see it again, especially with this cast. Um, I wanted to do a small shout out to DANCIN’. The whole conversation about the show, but there was like had an intro kind of welcoming speech from one of the dancers, and it was like one of the most gender inclusive things I'd ever heard on a Broadway stage.

[44:31] Meghan: So thanks for that.

[44:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Very cool. And then moving on to our action of the ep, I wanted to give an update from the New York Civil Liberties Union about their campaign to disband the New York Police Department's Strategic Response Group.

[44:45] Meghan: And just a reminder, the SRG is a notoriously violent rapid response unit. And despite promises from their department that this unit would not be deployed at protests, they have consistently threatened, attacked, and arrested protesters, mostly Black folks and Latinx folks. And then time and again, when the SRG arrives on the scene, officers escalate the situations and injure New Yorkers who are exercising their First Amendment rights.

[45:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: There's an upcoming finance committee hearing in mid-May. City Council will hold a hearing in the finance committee where members of the public can testify about budget priorities. And we'll add links in the show notes with an SRG fact sheet and a sheet where you can sign up to volunteer in different ways that includes testifying. It's really important for the public to be there so our City Council knows that the public cares about this issue, and you don't need to be, you know, experienced with the SRG. It's better if you don't have experience with them, actually. You can do digital advocacy, posting on your social media, advocating for others to get involved, canvassing, and even more. So check out their toolkit, find out how you can support this campaign.

[45:52] Meghan: Alright. So moving on to our queer culture recs. Um, Harrow, I'm very excited to support and hear what you're about to share.

[45:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, well, first I want to throw it way, way back. Uh, I want to shout out and recommend Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg. This is a book, I think from the 80s, that is about Leslie's journey with gender and how Z presents it really impacted her life. And it's a beautiful, beautiful book. I don't think I've ever cried so much reading a book. Uh, it was one of the second books we read for book club, I think. It's out of print, I believe still, but there's a free PDF copy you can download from Leslie's website. So if you are interested in reading it, please go online. We'll post the link in our show notes. It's a beautiful book, um, one of my favorites. And then ripping off of that, a book we just read for Book Club as well is called Hijab Butch Blues by Lamya H. And this is kind of like a modern version of Stone Butch Blues from Lamya, who is a Muslim queer person and talking about their journey with queerness and identity and presentation, and it's really beautiful.

Also comparing it with stories from the Quran and like taking like scripture or readings from the Quran and comparing it to like learnings and stories from their own life. It's an amazing book. I’m glad I actually bought it so I can go back and reread it again because it's one I want to return to for sure.

[47:19] Meghan: Yeah. What are your wrecks, Meghan?

[47:21] Meghan: So, so late to the game, incredibly late to the game. I know that like you and our friend Kirsten have been trying to get me to watch this for a long time. But I'm finally watching Yellowjackets, and it's as good as everyone promised it would be. Um, it is pretty disturbing, so I need to like only watch it when my wife is not around or not home. She can't handle the scary. Um, but I love it. I also hilariously got my dad hooked on it. I think he's already over—he's already past me. I think he watched the whole first season already.

[47:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: This is the dad that's like, well, that wasn't really about baseball.

[47:58] Meghan: Yeah, League of Their Own. Yeah, he loved League of Their Own. At the very last episode, huh, that wasn't really about baseball.

[48:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: No, it wasn't, Dad.

[48:06] Meghan: He loves queer culture, though. He's a big fan of all culture altogether. Um, I have a picture of him with a Taylor Swift cutout holding a sign that says, "It's me, I'm the problem, it's me," that he sent me last week.

[48:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[48:23] Meghan: Incredible. But yeah, Yellowjackets, it's great. Even when it's not queer, it's queer. And yeah, I love Melanie Lynskey. Anything Melanie Lynskey's in, when she was in that episode of The Last of Us, I like cheered. I was like so excited. I love that she's getting roles now that aren't the like cheerful sidekick, like her being a badass, like murderer, killer. Oh, love it so much.

[48:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and she's also the—um, a shout out to a previous queer culture rec—Over the Garden Wall. She's the voice of the bird in Over the Garden Wall that's like leading the boys through the woods. But I just love everything she does from animated characters to like badass rebel leaders. She's the best.

[49:07] Meghan: So maybe that's actually the wreck. It's Melanie Lynskey is a great chair.

[49:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes.

[49:12] Meghan: But also Christina Ricci in the series is incredible.

[49:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[49:15] Meghan: And like where's she been? Like it's so great to see her in something.

[49:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[49:19] Meghan: The whole—I—the four adult women in the cast are just incredible. And then I need to go back and rewatch Heavenly Creatures. I haven't seen that in forever either. Have you seen it?

[49:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my god.

[49:30] Meghan: It's like baby Kate Winslet and Melanie Lynskey, and they're queer and like murdering people in the woods.

[49:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Excuse me?

[49:38] Meghan: Yeah.

[49:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[49:41] Meghan: Yeah.

[49:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm looking at this now.

[49:44] Meghan: How do I not know this exists?

[49:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my god, we need to have a movie night.

[49:47] Meghan: Oh, I would love that.

[49:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my gosh.

[49:50] Meghan: Yeah.

[49:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: This looks wacky.

[49:52] Meghan: It is. And it's before they were both really famous. All I need to see in the description is their increasingly intense friendship is becoming unhealthy to know it's for me.

[50:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yep.

[50:06] Meghan: Oh, that's—wow.

[50:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: 94.

[50:10] Meghan: Yeah.

[50:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: They're babies.

[50:12] Meghan: Alright.

[50:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, this is moving to the top of the queue.

[50:16] Meghan: Great.

[50:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's another queer culture wreck.

[50:19] Meghan: There you go.

[50:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It was nominated for an Oscar.

[50:22] Meghan: Wow.

[50:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It was nominated for Best Screenplay.

[50:25] Meghan: Nice.

[50:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Alright, I got some homework now.

[50:29] Meghan: Yep. Well, thanks everyone for joining us for this third episode in season four. We'll be back.

[50:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[50:36] Meghan: Thanks, y'all. Talk to you soon.

[50:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Thanks for listening. If you like, please follow, rate, and review us and share us with your friends.

[50:44] Meghan: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Thesis on Joan. We'd love to hear your queer culture wrecks and ideas for queering the canon. Send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail dot com or leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[50:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Come back for more interviews, fun queer content, recommendations, and discussions on current theater. Until next time, keep it queer.

[51:08] Meghan: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[51:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I haven't heard much about that show at all.

[51:17] Meghan: So it's okay.

[51:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Okay.

[51:21] Meghan: A lottery.

[51:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Worth the lottery.

[51:25] Meghan: Okay. Well, now we know.