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[0:00] Kern Carter: But my relationship with failure is that I hate it. I hate it. So I am going to study the longest. I'm going to read the most. I'm going to take another class right now on interiority. I don't care how many book deals I have. I'm taking another class on that. I write every morning because I'm so scared that my next book is going to be shit. I'm so scared that God's going to take away this gift that he gave me of being a good writer. I'm so scared that I'm going to fail that I'm like, nope, I need to prep like a like nothing, like no one's business.

[0:39] Heather Vickery: What's up, hey?

[0:41] Alan Seales: What's up, Pat? How you doing?

[0:45] Heather Vickery: I already see where this is going. I already see where this is going.

[0:49] Alan Seales: Yes, you do, friend. Yes, you do. Hey everyone. Welcome to Was It Chance, the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. We are already off to a good start. I'm Heather Vickery.

[1:00] Alan Seales: Ah, Malin Seals and Heather and I started off as two perfect strangers who met by chance and embraced opportunity. Now you get to listen in as we chat with other successful people about the risks they've taken to put themselves on a path to creative success.

[1:14] Heather Vickery: What do you are you making fun of me now? Why do I feel like mimicking you?

[1:16] Alan Seales: I know that's usually your job, but it just felt good to like be the annoying little brother for a second.

[1:24] Heather Vickery: Isn't it fun? You're just like, I don't know why I wanted to poke the bear with you today.

[1:32] Alan Seales: I won't be able to handle the backlash.

[1:37] Heather Vickery: Hello. I didn't I like it.

[1:41] Alan Seales: You like it?

[1:42] Heather Vickery: You're ridiculous.

[1:44] Alan Seales: You're ridiculous.

[1:45] Heather Vickery: I am I am ridiculous. What a day. What a day. I just got back from watching uh my fifth grader run his first 5K.

[1:52] Alan Seales: It was a school activity.

[1:53] Heather Vickery: What? I love that.

[1:55] Alan Seales: Yeah. Fifth graders are writing 5K.

[1:58] Heather Vickery: Yes. In bought in Brooklyn, no less. At Prospect Park.

[2:01] Alan Seales: Yeah. And then we we sufficiently pissed off a biker because all the parents were crowding.

[2:06] Heather Vickery: That's how that would work in the bike lane.

[2:07] Alan Seales: And the bike, like passive aggressively didn't stop and just came barreling straight for all of us.

[2:15] Heather Vickery: And we'll move.

[2:15] Alan Seales: And I did not move. I'm like, you go around me. Cause I'm just that idiotic.

[2:22] Heather Vickery: I would have to see it to know which of you was actually in the right.

[2:26] Alan Seales: Oh, all the parents were completely blocking the bike lane. Like he was in the right, but not how he went about it.

[2:31] Heather Vickery: Right. Left. It's nuance.

[2:32] Alan Seales: It is. It is. Okay. Riddle me this. When I was walking back, I'm crossing, uh, crossing the intersection. And as one does in Brooklyn, you just try to run all the red lights when you're in when you're a taxi cab driver.

[2:48] Heather Vickery: This is a taxi cab driver.

[2:49] Alan Seales: I was three quarters of the way through the intersection, almost to the other side, and a cab that had been blocked in the box, zoomed in front of me to get out of the box. And like I literally smacked the cab. That's how close they were.

[3:02] Heather Vickery: Oh my god.

[3:07] Alan Seales: And it who's in the right there? I'm sitting fifth.

[3:12] Heather Vickery: Yeah. Pedestrians are don't the pedestrians like pretty much always have the right of way.

[3:16] Alan Seales: Yes. Yeah, they do. Good point. And they're in cars. They could hurt you.

[3:19] Heather Vickery: They need to choke. Right?

[3:21] Alan Seales: Exactly. Right. And this wasn't a gradual, like, I'm gonna make sure you you don't get hurt. This was like F you. I was like, whoa! Like I literally jumped back.

[3:30] Heather Vickery: Oh man, everybody is, everybody's angry.

[3:33] Alan Seales: I think it's collective grief.

[3:35] Heather Vickery: Probably. Collective grief. I get that. I get that. Like whoever's running our simulation needs to like stop drinking.

[3:44] Kern Carter: Secret mystery voice. What were you gonna say?

[3:46] Heather Vickery: Like what?

[3:48] Kern Carter: I was gonna say like a global collective.

[3:51] Heather Vickery: Yeah, yeah. I do. I agree. And we might also be in a simulation. Like it's possible we all died during COVID and we're just I don't know. If they're all like the people who are gone are still like they're alive and we're all the dead.

[4:05] Alan Seales: Whoa, man. That's possible. I told I told my college class that the other day. I'm like, we it's very possible this is a simulation. And you know, we need to just accept that.

[4:14] Kern Carter: I'm not willing to rule out anything. Listen, I I you know, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, right? And every time like data is written to a uh a a digital device somewhere, it takes atoms, it creates it uses energy to create to write and record that data, and there will be some point when we run out of energy in the universe to create more data.

[4:41] Alan Seales: I don't think that's true.

[4:42] Kern Carter: Yes, I don't think I do.

[4:44] Alan Seales: I don't think so. Fight me. Come at me. Come at me.

[4:46] Kern Carter: So I mean in in a very like scientific factual way, the the sun will stop shining because it's a star.

[4:54] Alan Seales: Sure. That's correct. That that will happen. And my 12 year old can tell you like when that's projected to happen for the record.

[5:00] Kern Carter: Sure, he knows the exact date.

[5:02] Alan Seales: When will the So I mean eventually we're just gonna die? Let's see. Right?

[5:06] Kern Carter: Like the earth is not gonna be habitable anymore.

[5:08] Alan Seales: So Alan is looking this up. This is a very awesome thing to do right now.

[5:11] Kern Carter: We'll die in approximately five billion years.

[5:14] Alan Seales: Oh, we got billions of years ago. You got some time?

[5:17] Kern Carter: I know, but but I do think it's global collective grief, and I think everyone, it's manifesting in different ways. I'm seeing it. So I'm a transformation coach, right? And I'm seeing it with other entrepreneurs and in with clients where it's showing up as burnout, but also anger and aggression and frustration. Um, where we would think it would just be like depression or sadness. We're all like trying to go out into this world and do this thing. Um but everything feels hard, like we're just frustrated all the time.

[5:48] Heather Vickery: I was talking with someone, there's a Zen center, a Buddhist Zen center right a block away from me. And we had a we had a yes, I want to go to there. We had a a uh a neighborhood block party, potluck the other night. And uh, someone from the Zen K Zen Center came and they'd never come before, and I was talking with them, and I was like, So tell me, like, what do you do there? I don't know. And long story short, it's like a boot Buddhist focused, lots of meditation, just be nice to each other, sort of like help people who need help, sort of thing. And I just talking, I was like, man, if if like everybody just went subscribed to that, how much better would we be just being nice to each other and not trying to run each other over in the middle of intersections, you know what I mean?

[6:30] Kern Carter: Yeah, yeah, asking for too much there, I feel like to just like love each other, take care of each other.

[6:35] Alan Seales: Yeah, they're really uh really pushing it, Alan. I don't know if I could define Well, who who is talking, Heather?

[6:43] Heather Vickery: I know. I was gonna say that. Y'all that mystery voice you're hearing is Kern Carter. Uh Kern started out as an indie author who wrote his way out of anxiety. So I feel like this is a good intersection, good segue here, right? Into he wrote his way out of anxiety and into the world, and now he is a published novelist with Penguin Random House, which I think is cool because you started as an indie, so we're gonna talk about that. Also a ghostwriter, keynote speaker, and the man behind writers are superstars. Thank you very much. I'll just go ahead and you know, like flip my hair with Alexa, a little bit Alexa. Um he has a subsec newsletter. That's what uh writers are superstars. That's rewriting how we talk about the literary world. His books explore family identity and the messy, beautiful complexity of the human connection. See, I didn't even plan that. I did not plant that, Kern. I'm just saying that was good.

[7:36] Kern Carter: It was good. It just worked out. We're gonna just call it the universe looking out for us. Uh Kern believes that writing makes you brave. I believe that too, and we're so excited to have you here. Welcome to the show.

[7:48] Kern Carter: Thank you, thank you. I'm excited. This is the probably the best, most random intro I've ever had. Ever. Thank you very much. I will do a little bit of that second. I'm so excited now. You know what? You're gonna get a you you're gonna get like a new fan now. Like, I'm gonna be a super fan of the show after this. Y'all are y'all are already great. You're already my favorite podcast.

[8:09] Heather Vickery: Yes!

[8:10] Kern Carter: I need that today. Thank you.

[8:12] Alan Seales: They like us, they really like us.

[8:15] Kern Carter: It's hard to it's hard to find podcasters with personality.

[8:17] Alan Seales: It's actually more difficult than you think, you know?

[8:20] Kern Carter: No, I believe you've been podcasting for a long time. And it does feel very robotic. And that's what so we were sharing, listeners, we were sharing this with Kern right before we started. That the feedback we got from you all was that you wanted a little bit more of this, you know, real life banter back and forth. So I think that's what gives you that's what gives you that that you're saying you like. So yeah, yes. Thanks. More of it, more of it. I'm with it.

[8:45] Heather Vickery: All right. Okay. Well, so let's we're we're gonna get in on all the good stuff, but like let's take what you do with that conversation, collective global grief. Alan's like, if we could all just be nice to each other and like check on each other's neighbors and all of that, you do this kind of through writing and you talk about this, like what this looks like and what it feels like. So let's hear your thoughts on that from your perspective.

[9:07] Kern Carter: Yeah, like that that's interesting that we started there because I talk, I teach classes, and whether it's my college class, whether it's I think I'm teaching an online class right now every couple weeks. I start every class with a full lesson on emotion. Like, how are you emotion from both perspectives? Emotion from the perspective of yourself. Like, how are you yourself? How are you going to take care of yourself during this creative process? Like as you're putting together your book, I don't care if you're writing nonfiction, fiction, literary fiction, genre fiction, doesn't matter. Like it is an emotional process. So you need to just like take steps to prepare yourself for that journey. And I like set out steps and and set out suggestions that that they should hopefully take.

And then the other part of that is you are well, as you're expressing yourself creatively through writing, you are um you're trying to connect emotionally with people, like you're trying to connect emotionally with readers, like you're or you're trying to create an experience that feels emotional in some way, whether it's funny or you want someone to feel angry. So I talk about uh the emotional condition that you're trying to create with your writing and starting with that, like literally that being your starting point, and then writing around that or writing, you know, um, with that foundational kind of concept in mind. So um when you're when you talk about having this shared experience that we're having of of global grief, even though like I don't know if that's a real thing or not, but we're saying this is a real thing. I think it is energetically, I really think it is.

[10:28] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[10:29] Kern Carter: I I think we are, I think it's totally possible for us to to be sharing in a in a collective experience and for us to all feel be feeling something very similar, despite like I'm here in Toronto, you you all are in different places, and just looking at you know looking at the world through the internet because I mean that's that's how we're looking at the world to be honest, you know. So we're judging it's it's also too I'm not I'm not sure, like not even I'm not sure by now I feel like I know I don't even think it's really healthy for us to know this much. Like I don't think we should see all these things and know all these things all at once. I I was I'm almost I almost think it was better when something was happening.

My words, please don't listen to my thought and not my exact words. I feel it was better when better meaning like different when you know it was so far away that it took a long time before we actually like interpreted it. So that mean means we had to like deal with what was around us more immediately. Process it, let the emotion. Yeah, more you know what I'm saying? Like to give us more time. Like now it's just like this year, this work, constantly like it's just like, wait, what am I what can I even get angry at? What can I where can I put my emotions? What what can I care about the most? And then just because of that, this is something else. I told when I'm saying I teach emotions, I I'm very serious about this.

I love that. I tell my students, listen, you it's okay to just like put feelings aside and not care about something fully. I tell them take the mother test. All the time. Like is this like if if my mom is in this situation I would go and like save, I would need to go save her, then let that be the thing that you care about. But if it's not that if it's not a mom in there, then there's so much going on. I know it sounds messed up, but there's so much going on. You need to give yourself breaks. You need to give yourself permission to not care a little bit. Like, I know that sounds horrible, but you have to give yourself permission to not care about something because what?

[12:24] Heather Vickery: What do we what what would you care about the most right now? Like, what what do you want to cry about today? You know what I mean? Like, tell tell me, tell me what do you want to cry about?

[12:32] Kern Carter: What do I want to cry about today? Oh my gosh. See, it's interesting because my work is rooted in helping people lead from a foundation of inner peace and expansive joy. So I'm with you on all of this, and I'm very honest about my feelings, but I also take myself through a daily practice of like, here's what I know. Here's what's happening in the world and around me. Here's what I can do about it. And once I get beyond what I can do about it, I just decide to let it go. It's not that I don't necessarily care. I just don't take any responsibility or ownership for it anymore.

[13:05] Heather Vickery: So uh I like that. What makes me want to cry? Like, I I do a monthly networking breakfast, and we had that earlier today. And what made me rage didn't make me want to cry when it made me rage is that I couldn't pull into the valet because there were a bunch of fucking buses parked there, and it made me late from my event. But almost instantly I go through my like, okay, here's what's happening. What are my options? I'll take this one, I'm gonna let it go. Like, I could be mad all day about it, but that doesn't make my day better.

[13:36] Kern Carter: I I could see you're really good at what you do already.

[13:39] Heather Vickery: Oh, thank you. I want a guest lecture for your class.

[13:41] Kern Carter: That's what I want to do.

[13:42] Heather Vickery: That's all my gosh. I love it. My work is rooted in subconscious reprogramming, right? N LP and and taking radical responsibility for yourself.

[13:49] Kern Carter: I want to see you in front of a class here.

[13:52] Heather Vickery: I'm so good.

[13:53] Kern Carter: I'm so fucking good in front of a class. I really am. When you go up and do this, I'm gonna come record it.

[13:58] Heather Vickery: And we'll okay, yeah. That's that's great. Let's make this happen.

[14:03] Kern Carter: I am I just invited myself right in class.

[14:07] Heather Vickery: Please come. They would love it. I have a chatty bunch in college this year. They they would absolutely love it. It would be really fun.

[14:12] Alan Seales: That is so cool. But so, Alan, what's making you want to cry today? Because I want to hear what Kern's gonna do with that answer.

[14:17] Alan Seales: Oh man. Um today it it's how uh how little capitalism seems to care about the arts at a at a high level.

[14:28] Kern Carter: Because don't give a fuck.

[14:30] Alan Seales: And don't recognize the value.

[14:32] Kern Carter: No.

[14:33] Alan Seales: Wow. No, because like I was just saying before we we started. I'm I'm producing a uh hopefully Broadway-bound show here. And just the amount of the amount of uh everybody, the major shows, the biggest, the big 20 million dollar raises down to my little, you know, several million dollar raise, everybody's having trouble because it's too expensive to do anything in this city in the and you look at a place like West End, London, where the city, the country the culture cares about the arts and subsidizes it, there's no problem.

[15:07] Kern Carter: Well, Canada, they do in Canada.

[15:09] Alan Seales: That's how that's why we got heated rivalry.

[15:11] Kern Carter: Yeah, because Canada cares about the arts.

[15:13] Alan Seales: That's why I started watching SNL again.

[15:16] Kern Carter: It's bringing me joy.

[15:19] Alan Seales: That that is that is real. That is real. That's a tough one, though. And even you're right, Canada does. I I criticize Canada sometimes, or it's maybe halfway a lot, but where where we do, where we are, like I could say we are consistent.

[15:33] Kern Carter: Like our grant system for the arts is robust. You can you can make a living just off grants in the arts here.

[15:41] Alan Seales: Really?

[15:42] Kern Carter: That would never happen in the United States.

[15:44] Alan Seales: I didn't know that. That's crazy.

[15:45] Kern Carter: A thousand percent. You could make a living just off doing getting grants and and doing your art. The so it's a double-edged sword, though.

[15:54] Alan Seales: So the here's here's some here's some intro for you. The the creative industry, the film, the publishing industries very very specifically, and the and the film industry are state funded industries. Those industries are not um on their own capable of supporting itself without funding from the from the from this, let's call it the state.

[16:17] Kern Carter: Um so from one perspective, it's actually like incredible. Like they they the indie publishers all get grants, uh the individual authors get grants, um, the individual film, the producers get grants, directors get I've I've gotten like my grants right now that I've gotten over the last five years together with my creative partner, is over 200,000.

[16:42] Alan Seales: Whoa.

[16:42] Kern Carter: That's incredible.

[16:44] Alan Seales: Just unfathomable as an American.

[16:46] Kern Carter: Yeah, so that's great, but then it it does we're we're a smaller country, so we could get away with it. We only have like 40 million people.

[16:54] Alan Seales: So we could we could pull that off, but it does, it does lead to some kind of complacency because I feel like what's what's happened is that Canada does not have like an international presence when it comes to to any of those things.

[17:09] Kern Carter: When it's very contained within our own country, there's no international presence when it comes to to literature, even though we def we have some of the most brilliant authors you'll ever read.

[17:18] Alan Seales: Um it doesn't translate when it comes to film.

[17:20] Kern Carter: Um it just doesn't we internationally we don't have no any presence because like we're partially because we're I feel like we're we don't our our nature by culture is not to promote.

[17:33] Alan Seales: Like we're very um like not shy, but quiet, accommodating Canadian.

[17:38] Kern Carter: Yeah, like with that that part is actually true. Canadians really do struggle with promoting themselves, it's just a thing, and the other part is though, like we have not done a good job in creating systems that focus on the artists, on the art, the artists themselves, and and and creating systems that actually promote them within those systems.

[18:00] Alan Seales: It'll be easier for me to give an example. For example, within Indigo, our major bookstores indigo, right? And Canada, we are out of all Western, all countries in the world, actually, we consume the most international books out of anybody.

[18:16] Kern Carter: 80% of the books that we purchase are from outside of Canadians.

[18:20] Alan Seales: That is ridiculous.

[18:21] Kern Carter: But that's only because the books that are presented to us are not Canadian.

[18:25] Alan Seales: Are not Canadian, they're American books.

[18:27] Kern Carter: If we only if we went to an indigo, like and I'm using indigo as an example because they're the biggest book really retailer, if we went into an indigo and 90% of the books were Canadian, then Canada would have stars, right? Like we'd be like, Absolutely. That guy's a that woman's a star, she's a star, he's a star, they're a star, blah blah blah. We don't have that.

[18:42] Alan Seales: So most of the books are US books, right?

[18:46] Kern Carter: So we know everything about US authors. We are all of our if you ask a Canadian, 100%, 90% of Canadians, their favorite authors are going to be from outside of Canada, even though we have plenty of authors in Canada.

[18:58] Alan Seales: So it it if this if we paired the system that we have where we actually do get funded to the artists, which is great, but if we paired that with a system that actually um promoted Canadian art, then we would be unstoppable.

[19:13] Kern Carter: Well, we would we would be crazy. If anybody listening wants to start American Canada's very first marketing agency with me, then uh he's not kidding either.

[19:22] Alan Seales: Just in case you're wondering, this is what happens every episode. Alan comes up with a new business idea every time we have a conversation.

[19:30] Kern Carter: And I would say a solid 50% of the time it turns into something.

[19:34] Alan Seales: Seriously?

[19:35] Kern Carter: I don't have the effort nor the expertise to start a marketing ABC.

[19:38] Alan Seales: We're gonna take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[19:42] Kern Carter: And now we're back. What happens to people who start businesses in in or want to get promoted in Canada?

[19:49] Alan Seales: I mean, I guess a good question leading to you to you personally, because you started out as an indie author and you found success on Substack, and now you're with Penguin Random House.

[19:59] Kern Carter: American based, to your point.

[20:01] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[20:01] Kern Carter: I'm just I'm super ambitious, first of all. So that I think that's that's one thing. For whatever reason, I think I just got that gene. My mom, we grew up in in like semi-difficult circumstances, but my mom was always like, I don't care where we are, where we live, like this is your environment does not dictate who you're gonna be.

[20:19] Kern Carter: Like you she always said, think big your environment does not dictate your outcome. So I we never ever ever felt like we had a rough childhood, even though like the environment around us was rough.

[20:29] Alan Seales: So I took that and and just like ran with it.

[20:32] Kern Carter: And then also another thing that was really I think unique for me and very like it gave me a different lens on what was possible was that my older brother was super successful.

[20:43] Kern Carter: My older brother became he was like the from Canada, he was the first like huge Canadian football player. So he was the number one football player in Canada, but then he became the like 11th grade, he was the third best football player in North America, high school football player in North America.

[20:57] Kern Carter: Um went to Stanford University and played in the NFL. So I saw that. So if you're like in a household and we're three years apart, so by the time he's in 11th grade, I'm in eighth grade, right? So I'm like, oh, if he could, if he's, if he could do that, I'll be back.

[21:11] Kern Carter: My stupid older brother, I can do better than that, right? I know how siblings are. That's what I was thinking. I'm like, shh, I could do that.

[21:18] Alan Seales: So it was never a question of can I for me. It was a question of like, um, when is it gonna happen for me? You know, like as long as I do these things, it's gonna happen.

[21:27] Kern Carter: So I've always had that kind of mindset, that that ambitious mindset. But then also too, I feel like art art is I I think people make art very um abstract in the in their thought process about like it can I make it or not.

[21:43] Kern Carter: I feel like they think it's a toss-up. And for me, it's not a toss-up. To me, it's like if you're strategic about it, if you treat your art like you would treat um a uh a profession, like becoming an accountant or becoming a plumber or becoming a doctor, like you have to go through certifications or med school or you know, law school, whatever the situation is.

[22:00] Kern Carter: But if you do these things, then the outcome would be like you're gonna be a lawyer. If you pass your LSAT, you're a lawyer. If you pass your met, right, you're going to be that thing.

[22:09] Kern Carter: Now you could be a shitty lawyer, you could be a, you know what I'm saying? Like they're degrees of being good or not. But if you if you if you really strategize your career as an author, um or like yeah, I'll say author, then it's actually more than possible.

[22:22] Kern Carter: You just have to, you have to be okay with what that actually entails. Like the next post on Subsack that I'm writing about is like, don't be an author. That's literally what I'm titling it.

[22:30] Kern Carter: Because I'm telling people, if if all you if the thing that is inspiring you or telling you that you need to be an author is that you're passionate about writing, that's actually like that is that's great, but that is not what it takes to be an author.

[22:44] Kern Carter: You just have to write.

[22:44] Alan Seales: Yeah, just you know what I'm saying?

[22:46] Kern Carter: Like that thing. Yes, but my point is then keep that thing precious to you.

[22:52] Kern Carter: Yeah, you know what I'm saying? If like the the the being the author, it means like pursuing the career, then that's something different than being a writer.

[23:00] Kern Carter: You know what I'm saying? If you just want to write and keep that thing, like keep that thing precious to you, like just share it with your friends, don't put any deadlines on yourself, don't try to query, like just keep it super precious to you.

[23:11] Kern Carter: But if you want to chase this as a career, that is much, much, much, much different. And it involves accepting some things, including doing some things outside of writing, including promotion, including marketing, including finding residual um other sources of revenue.

[23:25] Kern Carter: Um, it it includes all of those things. So if you're not prepared, it includes the emotional journey, being rejected over and over and told you're not good enough, and your editor saying redo this, and an agent saying no, and then saying yes, and then saying, Oh no, sorry, no, and then not getting royalties for for eight, only getting royalties twice a year if you even get to royalties.

[23:43] Kern Carter: Like it's it's such an emotional journey that it's not worth it unless you like want this for your career, like really, and there's nothing else in the world that you want to do.

[23:53] Kern Carter: There is nothing else in the world that I want to do except write books.

[23:56] Alan Seales: Nothing.

[23:57] Kern Carter: I love that.

[23:57] Alan Seales: Like we won't we won't tell your students.

[24:00] Kern Carter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They know.

[24:03] Kern Carter: I know I tell them this show all the time. I talk to them just like this. I'm like, y'all know. I would rather walk into your class, hey assholes, thanks for taking out my time today.

[24:10] Kern Carter: You'd rather be writing. Let's go, let's open your books to page 22.

[24:14] Alan Seales: Okay, so Kurt, I'm curious. When did you know that? And where did you get this foundation? Like this is I'm gonna treat this like a job because it's a job, because there's nothing else I want to do. How old were you when you knew it? And what kind of opportunities slash chance sort of led you down this, like, yes, I'm all in path.

[24:35] Kern Carter: Lucky again, I would say that um at eight years old, I already knew. Um, like, like I stated it, like I said it out loud that I'm gonna do this.

[24:44] Kern Carter: I wrote my first book when I was eight. But actively when I started being like, all right, this is I'm gonna really commit to this path was uh 30 year of university. So I was like 21 or something like that. 30 of university, just like really committing and saying, like, all right, this this is what I'm going to do with my life, you know. And that was because I was a basketball player in high school. So I got a scholarship to go to, I went to school in Western New York, Austin Bonaventure. Excuse me. So um playing basketball, I was like, people in if you ask people in high school, they didn't know I was a writer. Like they didn't know I liked writing and stuff like that. Like I kept that part very hidden from everyone.

I was just like, you know, some of my teachers knew and you know, my mom knew and stuff like that. But I was just like, I was very shy about it. And it wasn't until I got to university when I found my like I found my people, you know, like I found the people who were already writing books, who love we could be drunk at a dorm party and they're like reciting Milton. That's my group of people right there. My group of people, I'm like, wait, we are so drunk, and you can tell me exactly word for word what Milton said in chapter two of like what? So it was beautiful for me. I'd never encountered that before. And that became like that gave me the comfort and the confidence to actually to take the next step in my career and say, like, all right, this is what I'm going to do and start writing in earnest.

And once I did that, for me, it was a commitment. It wasn't just that's why I kind of started off with if it's just a passion and then keep it precious. I knew that it wasn't just a passion. I committed to this, and no matter what, I was going to make it work. So, with that said, though, I was like, but like I knew I don't know. I actually kind of struggled to think about what gave me that idea of making this very strategic. I just I just I guess instinctively knew that I needed to take steps. And I will sorry, I will give my one professor a lot of credit. He read my first draft, fourth year. I'd gotten the first draft done by then, and I asked him to read it during finals because you know kids are selfish.

I was super selfish. And I was like, I know it's finals, I know you have to, and we had oral finals. We had to like yeah, like so. It's not like he was just giving you out an SAMB like and chill chilling out. He was like actually active, and I was like, please read my 200-word manuscript. That is garbage. And he still read it, he's an angel, Dr. Simpson. I hope you're still out there. But he read it and he pulled me into his office and he had like red marked every single page. And he said, you know, is this something that you really want to do with your life? And I'm like, yeah, this is exactly what I want to do. And he's like, Well, it's gonna take you five years to learn how to write better.

It's gonna take you another five years to build a readership, and it's gonna take you another five years to earn any money. Wow. So if that sounds good to you, then keep going. So he basically told me it's gonna take me three, like he gave me the mindset that I needed, you know what I mean? Like, he told me this. Not an overnight success. What a work, yeah. This is gonna be hard work. So, like that put into my head, like, okay, then all right, let me let me let me prepare. So, as I was writing my first novel, I was like, Well, I know this is gonna take time, but I know how to write better than most people now. How can I make money? And that's how I found copywriting, that's how I found ghostwriting, etc. etc.

[27:59] Heather Vickery: Well, what why okay? You said third year college, you decided to really do it. What were you going to college for originally?

[28:04] Kern Carter: Um, so I got a basketball scholarship. I started off as a journalism major and then I switched to an English lit major. And so then third I have an English degree also, English and theater. I say I have a double major in bullshit. Like the fuck are you gonna do with that? But I could talk to people about anything.

[28:22] Heather Vickery: And that is true.

[28:26] Kern Carter: Heather, you're my new favorite person in the world. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I received that with gratitude. Um, so you wrote this first book. Uh-huh. At what point now, maybe this was because you were Canadian and you had access to this, but did you always know you were gonna indie publish it? Or did you try trad publishing to start? What was that process?

[28:51] Kern Carter: I tried a little bit of traditional publishing, but not really. No, for me, I knew, and again, this goes back to I guess what my professor was telling me, but I knew this for me was practice. I wasn't, I knew in my head in the moment, not on reflection, I knew I wasn't a good enough writer yet. And I put the book out knowing that I love that book. Like it's still like it's my baby, it's my first one. But I uh it's a novella because I didn't know how to structure a novel yet. Yeah. So I was learning. I was like, I'm gonna learn in public. Like, I don't care like how this book sounds, I'm gonna learn in public. And it actually forced me to get ultra creative with it because I did it really not a structured novel.

And this is like oh six, oh seven, oh eight. So the access to information is not the same as it was today. Like I couldn't just jump into a master class. I could I just didn't know. I didn't know those things. I probably could have, but I didn't know that I could that I could. So I was practicing in public, and I put that book out as practice. I was like, all right, this will be my first one. I know I'm gonna write another one. Let me not get let me get not get too caught up. I need to learn what it feels like to mark in my book. I know the biggest lesson I learned from that book, which is why I'm so happy I put it out, is that it takes a hell of a lot of work to get a reader. Selling a book is so hard, so hard.

So that like that lets you know that it's it's let's so hard, it's so hard. So, but I learned a lot during that time. And yeah, like yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I forgot your question, but just yeah, did you did you know you were gonna do indie publishing? And you you did answer. You were like, Look, I knew it wasn't as good as I was eventually gonna get, but I just put it out there, and so you weren't attached to that, which I actually think in the arts and in the creative space in general, you have to be willing to put out stuff that's not good enough. You have to be willing to just like birth things and then edit or churn and shift and change. Um, I think there's a lot of power in that, but we get we're afraid.

We're afraid we're afraid to do that because if people don't like us, then maybe we won't get another chance or we won't trust ourselves enough to try more, and you kind of just seem to have somehow skipped whatever that insecurity is that most people have, and I love that for you.

[31:01] Kern Carter: And I have it though. I'm I'm actually like especially back then, I was super shy. I'm not as much anymore, but I was like in high school, I was like damn near mute. Really call yeah, yeah, yeah. If you ask my friends, like if you ask if you took a poll of my high school friends and asked them like one characteristic about her, and they'll all say quiet, like a hundred percent of them say quiet. And then college, I got a little bit more out of my shell because of what I told you before. Like, I felt like I found my people, so I was a little bit more comfortable in college, but still like still shy. And it's just that my and again, like sometimes I don't know where these things come from. I don't know, some kind of energy, but then I was like, Well, yes, I'm shy about this thing, but my love of writing and my commitment to being an author requires that I do this, so I have to do it.

Like I would be, I started going to um book readings in Toronto and or just like literary events, and I'll go by myself because none of my friends were into that stuff at the time until I found my new set of friends. But before that, I'd go by myself and I would sit outside the location in my car for like 10 minutes, just hyping myself up. Like, all right, Kern. Good for you. You're gonna go inside, you're gonna you're gonna get go to the bar, you're gonna hold one drink in your hand, and then you're gonna talk to one person, one person, okay, Kern. Okay, like literally 10 minutes just hyping myself up, like because I was I was sweating, like legitimately sweating shy. Like, so that's how you have to do it.

You just gotta get over it. Super anxiety, super super anxiety, just like nerves and everything. But I'm like, Do you want this, Kern? Do you want that's how I talk to myself? Like, do you I love that? Like, is that what you want? So neurologically, it matters. That's why it works for you because neurologically, when we speak things into existence, it patterns onto our brain. So it worked like that's exactly what everybody should be doing.

[32:48] Kern Carter: Yeah, that worked for me. And it just gets easier and it's easier. And I still like I struggle a little bit still, like I still get those like nerves, but it's first it's not close to what it was before. Like I can I can overcome and I can actually like take steps now to calm myself down. Like I could I have to get to a place early. I can't be late to an event. Like that, that is anxiety inducing for me. I need to like have time to see what's happening, see who's there, etc. So I know these things about myself now, so I make sure I take steps to alleviate what would happen. And now that I've done it like so many times again, I feel much more comfortable. But uh those early days were I would sweat, I'd be reading and sweating. I would my friend John would laugh at me because I'd always have a like a face cloth with me. And yeah, literally like dressed like that. Like a southern preacher. Like a whore in church. Kern was pimping himself up.

[33:47] Heather Vickery: Yes. Exactly. I can just I can see I can see the the what the uh oh what's a director that always has that famous narration, whatever. Yeah. Anyway, uh like a whore in church, Kern had to hip himself up. He was sweating. Okay. No, but then what was that chance encounter then that happened? Was there anything that happened that seemingly at the time may have been insignificant when you were like you you went out, you published your book, you were doing the independent route, and then all of a sudden you're like, you know, yeah.

[34:15] Kern Carter: I mean, let's how did we get to Penguin Random? Right, like oh, pro strategy and process. I was after my I so I self-published my second book, and then I'm like, all right, Kern. Strategy and process, bitches, you gotta work for it. I was like, all right, I self-published my first one, all right. Learning self-published my second one, and that one became a full novel. And um, I had met my new set of friends downtown, so I ended up in this writing group that was just like super supportive. And listening to the way that they wrote really opened up my kind of like my lens. Um, so that once I got that and I put the way that I wrote with some of the things I learned from that writing group, and I felt like I produced a good book, which was called Beauty's car.

This one, actually, this one right here. I know, right? That was that's a second, that's my second indie book. I was like, all right, I'm ready, I'm ready now. Like, I feel like I'm good enough. So I just told myself I'm not self-publishing anymore. Period. I don't care how long it takes. And then I was like, all right, I know to get a publisher, I have to get a literary agent if I want a big publisher anyway. So I went to New York. There happened to be a writing call a literary conference. Agents were out there. You got you got to basically speed date agents. I left. And I um spoke to seven, five of them said, send them my full manuscript. I went back to Toronto, set them my full manuscript.

All of them said no. Um because I was still, you know, I was I wasn't there yet. One of them though, my next angel, like I have a few angels in my life, another angel. For some reason, this literary agent gave me feedback. When the final one too, it's the last one that said no. She gave me feedback, and I mean like harsh, critical. Basically, like, you think you're good at writing, but you're not yet. Feedback. And she was so so specific with what she detailed. So I was like, at first I was offended, then I was hurt because I was like, man, I have two books out. What are people reading? It's probably garbage. Like I was really, I was really, really hurt for a minute. But then I'm like, you know what?

If she took time to give me this feedback, she had to have seen something. Because agents don't give feedback, right? I'm like, she had to have seen something. So I even if it was true or not, it didn't matter. I convinced myself of that. And that happened in November of 2018. January of 2019, I enrolled myself into a full-time novel writing course, uh, eight months. So from January until August, my writing just got it blew up. You worked one-on-one with uh with a published author, and my writing, like I understood literature in ways that I did it before. That book became Boys and Girls Screaming, which became my first published book.

[36:37] Heather Vickery: What did they help you unlearn?

[36:39] Kern Carter: They helped me learn. I knew the story, I knew how to storytell. I was good at storytelling. I was not good at the technical part. I I wasn't good at um uh building subplots. I wasn't good at um building full characters. I wasn't good at uh I was I wasn't good at pacing, I was summarizing too many things instead of like trying people into scene. I was filtering, I was doing like all these different things that I was like, wait, what?

[37:05] Kern Carter: Like, how? I didn't even realize that, you know. And she's things I thought I was good at, and she was just like, no, like you're failing in these places. And I was again, I'll give myself some credit because I was super open to feedback. Um because of what that agent said, I didn't go in there with any ego. I had like zero. So whatever the professor said, whatever the author said, I was just like, you know what? I'm gonna, even though some things I was like a little bit like, oh, that feels that's hard to swallow. I was just like, I'm gonna swallow it. I'm gonna swallow it. And it changed my writing. And I tell people this story as much as I can, especially my students, because the only thing that changed for me to get published was the quality of my writing.

That's it. That book that I was putting out to agents, because those five agents weren't the only agents I sent that book to. I had sent it to a lot of agents before I went to New York, and I got turned down by let's call it like 30 agents at least. So the only thing that changed was my writing. It's the same book. And I went back, and once I saw the story, once I got through that class and saw what the story was, because the author helped me see what the story was. I was like, I kept the characters and erased everything else. Like that's where we got to by the end of it. Like I had I realized that I was even going around the story all wrong. And I didn't even have a concept of what kind of story I wanted it to be.

But by the time I got to the end of the eight months, I knew that I wanted to be commercial fiction. I knew I wanted to be specifically young adult. Um, and I knew I wanted it to be a layered story, so I wanted it to be like, even though it was young adult and commercial fiction, I knew I wanted it to have a literary feel to it. So all of those things came together. I had the skill to actually execute on that. And you know, that gave me my first indie deal. That wasn't Penguin, and then what happened right after that was that my agent's like, all right, well, because I sent my book to an agent, blah, blah, blah. Got the agent right away. Like the first agent I sent it to said yes. Um, so I got my agent right away.

We got our book deal. Then he's like, All right, time for you to write another book. So I was like, okay, like we just got the deal. He's like, no, write another one right now. So I wrote, um, I started writing. He's he's like, oh, I really like the my agent told me. He's like, I really like the way you wrote the from the female perspective in your in that book that we just got published. You know, like maybe you should try another book in a female perspective. So I took kind of my daughter and I, like, I had full cuts to my daughter when she was 13, and we went through some crazy stuff. So I took like the essence of that story, um, put it into magical realism and wrote a story about that. And that's the we sent that one to Penguin, and that's the one that got published by Penguin.

And then that happened at the same time that Scholastic had seen my writing around somewhere, and they emailed me and they're like, hey, would you be willing to write a middle grade novel? And I'm like, I don't really write for that age group, you know, but you're Scholastic, so sure. As long as I can write a novel, they're like, Yes, you can write a novel, just like be aware that it's for middle graders. And you know, because I read some heavy stuff, and I'm like, done. And they're like, I want it to be specifically for middle grade boys. I'm like, sure, I can make that work. And I wrote, Is there a boy like me? And that became my most popular book.

[40:04] Kern Carter: I love that. We're gonna take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[40:08] Kern Carter: And now we're back. I love how willing you are to just like embrace, yeah. Sure, I can try that. Yeah, sure I can do that. Yeah.

[40:15] Kern Carter: You have to be. That's what I that's what I was talking about, like being an author. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is this is a career, and in a career, you have to be a little bit nimble and you have to be a little bit like open to things, you know. You know, this is not, I I I don't have one like yes, I'm a I write novels, I'm an author, I'm a novelist, but within that, there's there's so many different avenues that you can take and so many different things that you can do. And I think I never got like I'm never stuck on one thing. Like I am, I write like my the next book deal that I have is for a memoir and essays, right? So I can't even say that I'm just a novelist anymore. You know what I mean?

Like it's it's uh I'm writing actually nonfiction now. So it's I'm open to so many things, and I genuinely want to be the best writer in the world. Like that's my mindset. I come from sports, so that's what helps me keep going. I know it's actually my logical mind knows like it doesn't matter, it's stupid, it's not even possible. And I like there's no world where I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh, I'm better than Toni Morrison. Like it doesn't work like that for like and logically I know that, but emotionally, what gets me going is like I want to be the best. I competition gets me excited. So I use that and I and I put it out there and I like use that to like motivate myself, even though like people one day someone's gonna look at all my posts and be like, this guy wants to be the best author in the world.

I'm like, I'm really I'm just hyping myself up. I don't really like you know, I don't want people to think anything different, but I'm literally just hyping myself that quiet kid in the corner, like sweating and hyping yourself up.

[41:43] Kern Carter: Yeah, yeah, but to quote the infamous RuPaul, you can't love yourself. How the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Like you should be your biggest fan, and I think that's something that's missing in the arts. Yeah, is people pumping themselves up. Yeah, which is why I called my um those letter writers are superstars. This is I I want to give writers the confidence that I that I have developed for myself. You know what I'm saying? Like I didn't always have it, but the confidence that I've developed in myself, I want to give that to authors. So that's that like that is my calling card. Like, you should feel like a superstar. You should, and I genuinely also think that writing has been the foundation of like most great art.

It's a foundation of film. It's a foundation of like it's it's it's the found it's really like books are and storytelling through writing is the thing, you know what I'm saying? So I I really do feel like from a very practical perspective, it is also in itself just like you're a star if you can tell stories through writing. Um, and you have to force people to imagine, like see the picture in their mind just through your words, like you're a star if you can do that. So there's that aspect of it, but really it's a confidence thing, like you should feel great about yourself.

[42:48] Heather Vickery: How did you overcome that though? Because like, you know, one of those things you were saying, that just growing up, you were quiet, you had anxiety, and then all of a sudden, you know, like how did you get to that point where you're like, you know what? I'm I'm good. I am part of the best, if not going to be the best.

[43:04] Kern Carter: Well, you're the best you, you're always working to be the best you. Yeah, yeah. Like what shifted?

[43:09] Kern Carter: I honestly, I think it was just time. Like, kind of what Heather was saying. Like, once once I after I did that kind of routine enough where I'm hyping myself up, because I and I I really want people to know that I'm not I'm not exaggerating when I say that. I was doing that in my car for 10 minutes, and I did it every single time. And if I was on like a train or something because I didn't drive, I'm in my head on the train, hyping myself up, walking into the so this is like a real thing. I was really that shy. Wow. Um, so for me, I think it was just time. It was just like doing that repeatedly, and and also for everyone listening, over years, not like a day, not a week, not three months, not six months, over years.

I felt like this anxiety for years, for years, like legitimately. So it is not, it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen over like even like a year, and then just like you just notice it. Like sometimes you just notice it, then like, oh, I didn't sweat today. I didn't need to do it. I don't need to hype my problem no more. Now I don't need to do it at all. Like, I don't have to like hype myself up, but there are still certain steps that I do take. Like I said, I make sure I'm there early, I make sure I could see what's happening. Um, I I need to know like information about who I'm speaking to. Like those things, yes, I still need that to calm my anxiety, but I don't need to spend time like hyping myself up.

[44:26] Heather Vickery: That's really good advice, I think, for just kind of anything in general. My my older son, he's in fifth grade, he has the one I just watched running the 5K, uh, has anxiety too. And he's the same way. He likes to be, he likes to know in advance who's gonna be there, what he's gonna talk about, what is expected of him. And like when he has all that, he's great. He'll walk out the door with his head held high, but like put him in front of something, and all of a sudden things go sideways. That's what like I as a parent am trying to like get him comfortable with. I'm like, listen, life is rarely ever gonna go the exact way you want it to. So we gotta develop that toolbox to you know be able to pivot.

[45:05] Kern Carter: Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true. It's a tough it's a tough thing to touch skill to teach. I I'll I'll leave that one to Heather's tether.

[45:13] Heather Vickery: No, but what you're doing is right, and the subconscious mind loves repetition. Um, it thrives on it, so negative or positive, right? Whatever you're constantly telling yourself is 100% what you embody. Doesn't matter. So if if it's I suck and I'm not good at this and no one's gonna talk to me, for sure that's what's gonna happen. And if it's I'm a great writer and I'm gonna talk to one person, you know, like whatever that is, you're you're gonna do that. You're setting yourself up for it, and it feels brave. And and you've actually commented about how writing feels brave to you. And I'm and I'm curious what feels like the bravest part of the process. Um, like what scares you the most about something that you decided when you were eight. This is what I'm gonna do.

[45:57] Kern Carter: Yeah, that's a great question. I I think the um the absolute truth of it. I think writing for me, regardless of what I'm writing, is like coming from my mind and my heart onto the page. So it's like my imagination, the my thoughts, my emotions onto the page. And that feels like it feels very it makes me feel very naked, you know? Again, even when I'm not talking about myself. It makes me feel like very naked, and it makes me feel like um I'm putting a piece of myself out there to be judged. And again, that's not the case, but that's what it feels like. Yeah, of course. Um, it feels like I'm putting a piece out of myself out there to be judged. So I think first, and I speak very specifically about myself when I say this, like for me, coming from where I came from, like that like anxiety, like kid who had super so much anxiety and was super shy and was like, you know, who struggled struggle with socially to have words, to have writing.

Like, I don't like to like, I don't like to be like tell this, say the say this euphemistically and be like, it saved my life, but it totally altered my life, you know, in in a positive way, because I don't I have no idea where my life would be if I didn't have that outlet. If I didn't have writing to get the thoughts that I had in my head and the frustrations that I had in me, and like if I didn't have a space to actually like share express that, I don't know where it would have went. I don't know where it would have gone to your point at the very beginning, Alan. I don't know if you have this on tape or not. When you're like, energy doesn't die, right? Like it has to go somewhere. Yeah, it has to go somewhere, right? So it I felt like it would have killed me. Like, I I don't mean that literally. I felt like it would have I don't know. I don't know what the words are for it. It would have been.

[47:37] Alan Seales: I understand what you're saying.

[47:38] Kern Carter: That's how I felt about when I wasn't out of the like when I was still married and trying to I was like, if I don't change this, I don't know that I can survive.

[47:48] Heather Vickery: Yeah, oh yes.

[47:49] Kern Carter: It's a feeling, right? Yes. Yeah. It's it's just hiding, yeah, it's burying, burying truth. I mean, I think that's why like a lot of what we're saying at the beginning, just being nice, being nice to each other. Because like that begets the reactions from others that are gonna make them nicer. And and then we start to to overall just like kind of shift as a collective, and and uh we can accept each other for who we are and be be more and be more truthful with ourselves and with others, and we just are who we are, and everyone's okay with that. Like, oh my god, why the hell can't we do that?

[48:22] Kern Carter: It's literally the next substack post, which by the time this airs, it'll have been weeks ago, but is like I am hang, I'm I'm turning in my world hall pass monitor. Like, I don't need this fucking job. And you don't need this fucking job. We need to stop policing how people are spending their time or if they like the same thing we like, or what what do you mean? Like, I'm in I'm fully obsessed with Harry Styles' new album, Kiss all the time, disco occasionally. I've listened to it on repeat since it got released. I think it's fucking brilliant. And I'm like, look, you can be entitled to have your own opinion. You don't have to like it. You're wrong, but you don't have to like it. But keep it out of my space. Go don't like it somewhere else. Stop fucking with the things that people like.

[49:03] Kern Carter: Yes. I have I'm I'm gonna be right behind you. I'm with that. I'm so with that. We need to, and I tell uh uh Alan, you said something just a second ago too. Like, could we just get to being ourselves? I I tell like I tell my when I talk to the young, like the middle grade kids uh when I go speak to them now. I that's what I that's my main message to them. Like, fight to be yourself, find a way to be yourself no matter what.

[49:24] Kern Carter: Because like I the the bath the story I told y'all about being a basketball player and hiding my writing, that was like me telling myself a different story. For some reason, I grew up in the 90s, so for some like but I know bullying is obviously a thing now. Bullying was like in your face in the 90s, and like it was so if you were considered a nerd, it was very disruptive to your social life, right? Like and your friendship. So I really hid that. I I didn't let anyone know that. Like once I learned to play basketball at 10 years old, I hid the whole half of myself that was reading and writing. So no one, like, nobody knew that. And that was kill it was destroying me out. Let me tell you how much I was hiding this.

I was pretending and faking as there. Uh I failed ninth grade English when I had read the books that they were that they were studying. I already read them in like sixth grade. I read those books, and I failed ninth grade English because I was faking so hard. Like it was when you tell yourself a story, talk about believing it. You believe it to the core. And I was like, I'm a basketball player, I don't know anything about what like I don't want to like. I told myself that story for years until I failed damn English. And there was a teacher when I was filling the second semester who pulled me into her classroom and is like, well, she basically said the only way I could pass this finals if I get 100 on the exam.

I didn't want to go to summer school, so I'm like, all right, I'll be spy for a minute. So I got 100 on the exam. I'll do that. She's right. I'll do that. She came and she's like, uh, I I I see now, stop hiding. She knew she knew she knew she knew. She caught me, and I never failed a class after that because I she she gave me again, gave me confidence. And I wasn't like out with it, but it was a step in my progression that really helped make me feel more comfortable. So it it's it's try trying. I think it starts with that, Alan. Like, find a way to be yourself, please. Like everything after that is so much easier, you know. Because when you're not to your to your point, Heather, it feels like that. It feels like a slow death.

[51:15] Alan Seales: God, I feel like we could talk to you forever.

[51:18] Kern Carter: We could.

[51:19] Alan Seales: I was like, today, the day that you and I have to leave early. That's some bullshit.

[51:24] Kern Carter: Then maybe we just have a follow.

[51:26] Alan Seales: But this is a good lead in to your question, Alan.

[51:28] Kern Carter: Yeah, you know what I'm gonna ask.

[51:29] Alan Seales: The final question we wrap up with all the time is just what is your relationship with failure?

[51:34] Kern Carter: Oh goodness. Um my relationship to failure. You know what's so odd? I actually hate failing. I hate it, I hate it so bad. I I understand its necessity, but my relationship with failure is that I hate it. I hate it. So I am going to study the longest. I am gonna read the most. I'm gonna take I'm just taking another class right now on interiority. I don't care how many book deals I have, I'm taking another class on that. I write every morning because I'm so scared that my next book is gonna be shit. I'm so scared that God's gonna take away this gift that he gave me of being a good writer. I'm so scared that I'm gonna fail that I'm like, nope, I need to prep like a like nothing, like no one's business.

Um, so my relationship with failure is actually one of fear. I I fear it, but again, uh I've gotten better. Like, I know I'm joking about like the anxiety and the emotions, but I've gotten better in um like being able to separate my logical thoughts from my emotional thoughts. So logically, I know that that failure is necessary, so I embrace it. Like I I'm able to put myself out there and embrace it. But emotionally, I genuinely do fear it. Like, I'm like, nope, I don't, I don't want this, so I'm gonna do everything I can to avoid it. And I and I can live in those two worlds and be fine.

[52:48] Heather Vickery: Yeah. I mean, I think that's why I love that you said that. Because we usually get the the true but chart answer. Like we have to fail to learn if we do, and all of that is true, but also you don't have to like it. But all of the work that you're doing on the front end to pump yourself up and to get yourself ready, that's how you're countering that. So I think it's really I think it's amazing. I do have one really off the cuff question for you. Other than clearly, everybody who's listening now, our favorite Canadian author is Kern Carter. Other than you, who should we be reading?

[53:20] Kern Carter: Oh, Canadian? Oh yeah. Um start with Omar El Akad. He has this book called What's Strange Paradise that is brilliant. I don't even know what kind of book it is. It's part thriller, part sci-fi, part historical fiction. I don't know. Call whatever. Read it. What's Strange Paradise by Omar Elakad. Um read, read um, who else who else? Nor Naga is incredible. Read um Madeline Tien, Madeline. I tattooed her book on my arm. Did she know that? I met her late last year. I met her and I showed it to her. Yeah. And she was like, get away from me, weirdo. I know, I know. She was so nervous. I was like, she's gonna think I'm so weird. But um, she she went online and bought all of my books. So the book that I tattooed is called Do Not Say We Have Nothing.

That is one of the most brilliant books ever. Pim Twee has a book called Rue. That is brilliant. Um Fawn Parker is a more new author. Read her. And Matthew Morris. Matthew Morris has this book called uh Black Boy Like Black Boy Like Me. Something like that. Black Boy Like Me, I think it's called. That is just phenomenal.

[54:23] Heather Vickery: Yeah. Yay, thank you. And I don't want you to tell folks how they can connect with you, but I love uh we don't go back and forth, but we will now a lot on Substack, but you're amazing on Substack. So tell folks how they can connect with you and stay up to date with your books and yeah.

[54:37] Kern Carter: I think the simplest way is just like my website is currentcritter.com, so you'll see everything there. But yes, my my substack is like ground zero for me. So if you want to know like what's happening in my writing life, like I'm super um what's the word vo uh open uh on my on my substack. So writers are superstars isn't is the name of my substack. But yeah, current carter.com, you'll see all my books.

[54:59] Heather Vickery: I love that. Thank you for joining us today. You were just like so much fun to talk to.

[55:03] Kern Carter: I want to see Heather.

[55:05] Heather Vickery: You you gotta I know I wanna come. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna make this work, Heather. I'm gonna make this.

[55:10] Kern Carter: Yeah, you know how to find me, Kern.

[55:11] Heather Vickery: I wanna do it. I'm excited. Cause I think it changes everything right when we think about business people do the kind of stuff that I'm teaching all the time, but creatives don't. They don't think it applies to them, and it fucking does.

[55:25] Kern Carter: So yeah. All right. Kern, you're the best. Thank you. I can't wait to connect with you more.

[55:29] Kern Carter: Same. I can't wait.

[55:31] Alan Seales: All right. So I'm pretty sure that I want Kern to be my very best friend next to you.

[55:38] Heather Vickery: No one can beat you, Alan. But um unless I consent.

[55:42] Kern Carter: I want to go.

[55:44] Heather Vickery: That's okay. See now.

[55:46] Kern Carter: Kernel appreciate that. Um I wanna go to Canada and be a guest lecturer in one of his classes.

[55:52] Kern Carter: Yes.

[55:54] Heather Vickery: And you need to teach.

[55:56] Kern Carter: Thank you.

[55:56] Heather Vickery: You don't like I I could see you teaching regularly.

[56:00] Kern Carter: And before I would like to, actually.

[56:03] Heather Vickery: Yeah. I think you'd be really good at it. I have a couple of friends who are college professors, and they're like, don't, it's not worth the time. Cause I would be an adjunct, right? Like it wouldn't, I'm not gonna, it's not gonna be my career. They're like, the amount of effort you have to put in for the money you'd make is just not worth it but it's a bucket list item for me.

[56:13] Kern Carter: yeah you could do like some guest teaching again go up with Kern do it like a guest spot and then you're gonna be so good that the all the university is gonna be like what yeah was it chance we need her in our university too see that's how it's all working is that how that's gonna work excellent exactly um I just loved Kern I really did I I love his approach to maybe your writing can be precious like maybe you write to write yeah and it doesn't need to be published and it doesn't need to make you money and that's okay or maybe it makes you money like I don't know I just thought he was great.

[57:02] Alan Seales: Yeah you do it well I think like you do it because you love it in the creative arts you have to kind of do it because you love it because otherwise it becomes a job it becomes a slog and then you kinda lose the joy.

[57:13] Heather Vickery: I think that's true but I also think maybe for authors and and he talked about this it you have to treat it like a job. If you don't commit to the art like a job you can't make money off of it. So if you've decided you want it to be your profession as well you have to treat it like a profession and not like a passion.

[57:36] Alan Seales: Mm-hmm.

[57:36] Heather Vickery: Yeah well I guess that's true. I mean then it becomes a job and then it becomes a job but it's a job you like so you're happy to go do your job. What is it what is that saying? If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.

[57:49] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[57:49] Heather Vickery: Which is bullshit.

[57:51] Alan Seales: Yes, total bullshit.

[57:52] Heather Vickery: Because I love my work, but also sometimes I'm like, I just want to take a nap.

[57:58] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[57:58] Heather Vickery: I don't want to work.

[58:01] Alan Seales: I love it, but I'll do it tomorrow.

[58:02] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[58:02] Alan Seales: Yes. It would be fun to make money off of this podcast, though, because this is my happy place right here.

[58:07] Heather Vickery: Right.

[58:08] Alan Seales: Right.

[58:09] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[58:10] Alan Seales: Well, we'll cut this because it doesn't make sense, timeline, timeline wise.

[58:15] Heather Vickery: Or maybe we don't have to. I'm reading now the the story might just save your life.

[58:19] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah.

[58:20] Heather Vickery: We have that interview with author Tiffany Crumb coming up. You can leave that in.

[58:23] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[58:23] Heather Vickery: Actually, yeah, we'll leave that in.

[58:25] Alan Seales: Okay.

[58:25] Heather Vickery: So I'm reading it now. And you know, they two people, you and me have a podcast.

[58:29] Alan Seales: I know.

[58:30] Heather Vickery: How come we can't be and they're dealing with like millions million dollar sponsorships? I'm like, oh, what a problem to have.

[58:37] Alan Seales: Oh, I'd love to deal with that.

[58:40] Heather Vickery: Like Tiffany clearly never actually had a podcast.

[58:45] Alan Seales: Truer words have never been spoken.

[58:51] Heather Vickery: That's fair. Very fair. Well, Kether, if people want to help grow the podcast, or maybe sponsor us for like 0.00001% of that million dollars.

[59:03] Alan Seales: Yeah, right.

[59:04] Heather Vickery: Working out of it. Also, just all you have to do is actually listen to the ads.

[59:08] Alan Seales: You could turn your volume down, you could turn your speed up.

[59:11] Heather Vickery: Like if you would just listen to the ads and not fast forward through them, we could make a dollar or two.

[59:11] Alan Seales: Or two.

[59:18] Heather Vickery: Or two. As long as yeah, help us get gas money in this terrible economy, please.

[59:23] Alan Seales: I have an electric vehicle.

[59:25] Heather Vickery: Just help me get, you know, as my 21 year old daughter says, Bev money.

[59:25] Alan Seales: Bev money.

[59:31] Heather Vickery: Bev.

[59:32] Alan Seales: Okay.

[59:32] Heather Vickery: So I can get a daily bev.

[59:34] Alan Seales: A be a bev like Urridge.

[59:36] Heather Vickery: A bev or ridge.

[59:38] Alan Seales: Yeah, they call it Bev.

[59:39] Heather Vickery: Oh, I just had a Bev.

[59:41] Alan Seales: Okay.

[59:41] Heather Vickery: I think let's let's just start saying Urridge. What kind of Urge would you like? Excuse me? Uh I'd like a sprite, please.

[59:48] Alan Seales: That could be a courage.

[59:50] Heather Vickery: An urrid could be confused with something else.

[59:52] Alan Seales: The courage.

[59:53] Heather Vickery: Yeah, what kind of courage juice do you want?

[59:56] Alan Seales: Folks, if you like the show, and we really hope you do. There are a couple things. One, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast listening app. It means a lot.

[1:00:05] Heather Vickery: Yep.

[1:00:06] Alan Seales: Um, and it helps. It helps people find us. Listen all the way through. Listen to those ads. Just do that for us. That's solid.

[1:00:12] Heather Vickery: But also, we want to know. We want to hear about it. So you can email us at was it chance podcast at gmail.com. You can send us a message on uh Alan is on Instagram. Was it Chance is on Instagram? I am not. And on Threads, but we're on LinkedIn. Uh we're on TikTok. I'm on Substack. And I'm gonna start promoting this podcast more on Substack. So if you are also on Substack, engage with those comments and those posts. That would be fantastic. And then the other ask is like if you love this episode, think of two people that also might like it and just share it directly with them.

[1:00:48] Heather Vickery: Especially if they're Canadian.

[1:00:49] Alan Seales: Especially if they're Canadian.

[1:00:51] Heather Vickery: I actually have a lot of Canadian pals. Say hi, Canadian pals.

[1:00:53] Alan Seales: Hi.

[1:00:55] Heather Vickery: Yeah. I'm sorry. That's how they say hi.

[1:00:58] Alan Seales: That's how they say so.

[1:00:59] Heather Vickery: That's not. Don't insult my Canadian pals.

[1:01:00] Alan Seales: Oh no, I have a car's gonna kick your ass.

[1:01:02] Heather Vickery: I'm a Canadian family, so I can say that.

[1:01:04] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:01:06] Heather Vickery: Okay. We're just not gonna go there right now because that feels like a better decision. Everything feels like better. This is one of those days where I just want to take a nap and do it tomorrow.

[1:01:12] Alan Seales: Do it tomorrow.

[1:01:17] Heather Vickery: Okay.

[1:01:18] Alan Seales: Yeah. Anyway, you've been listening to Was It Chance, the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I'm Alan Seales.

[1:01:26] Heather Vickery: And I'm Heather Vickery. Thanks for listening, y'all.

[1:01:31] Alan Seales: Bye-bye.

[1:01:32] Heather Vickery: Bye.