This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Heather Vickery: When you feel like you're like, I am so scared to ask this, I'm a throw up. You don't have to jump straight into it, but it's just a clue. And um, we're all looking for direction, and I think that's not the place where we want to look. But I've realized in my life like that is the place to look.

[0:26] Heather Vickery: Hi, folks. You're listening to Was It Chance, the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I'm Heather Vickery.

[0:34] Alan Seales: And I'm live Alan Seales. We're in the room with each other. Heather and I started off as two perfect strangers. We met by chance and embraced opportunity.

[0:42] Heather Vickery: Listen in as we... We didn't embrace like...

[0:44] Alan Seales: What was the kiss? What was that?

[0:46] Heather Vickery: Because embrace always comes like with a hug, a kid.

[0:49] Alan Seales: We can kiss as friends.

[0:51] Heather Vickery: Like cheek.

[0:52] Alan Seales: Forehead.

[0:53] Heather Vickery: Top of the head.

[0:54] Alan Seales: Top of the head.

[0:55] Heather Vickery: Maybe.

[0:56] Alan Seales: Maybe.

[0:56] Heather Vickery: Oh, you can kiss the top of my head. It's okay.

[0:59] Alan Seales: My little podcast husband. It's okay.

[1:01] Heather Vickery: Um, you can't look at me the whole time. We're getting video for this, so you gotta at least face the camera.

[1:06] Alan Seales: Hi. I'm just looking at you while you do the intro. Then I'm gonna look at our guests if you would ever tell anybody who they are.

[1:11] Heather Vickery: Listen in as we chat with other successful people about the risks they've taken to put themselves on a path to creative success. I cannot wait to introduce these guests.

[1:17] Alan Seales: So I will right now. They are Jasmine Rafael and Cassidy Hamilton.

[1:23] Heather Vickery: Jasmine, is your name? Is it Raphael or Raf Rafi?

[1:26] Jasmine Rafael: Rafael, like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.

[1:28] Alan Seales: Exactly. Good, good, good. Okay. So Jasmine has over a decade of experience working in the dance industry for the likes of Ariana Grande, JoJo Siwa, Tori Kelly, and more, and is now making her Broadway debut as Imogen in & Juliet.

[1:40] Alan Seales: Cassidy is a writer-producer who has spent her career developing new works, theater projects working under some of the industry's most successful producers behind projects like Broadway's Rocktopia and The Trans-Siberian Orchestra, and currently serves as an associate producer on Avalon: An Immersive Musical.

[1:57] Alan Seales: So together, they not only both are producing co-founders of SKYLAR STUDIOS, they're also a queer couple working in the industry and have an upcoming show called Pretty, Witty, and Gay Cabaret, coming up this September 27th at Green Room 42 with a new cast of industry trailblazers from Broadway's biggest shows, such as & Juliet, SIX, Moulin Rouge, KPOP, and more.

[2:22] Alan Seales: They created this show to playfully challenge the heteronormativity of the American musical by providing a refreshing and exuberant new queer twist on your favorite Broadway hits.

[2:32] Heather Vickery: You wrote the intro. I guess that's what happens when you get double the excitement to guests.

[2:38] Alan Seales: That was so impressive.

[2:39] Heather Vickery: That was amazing. Thank you.

[2:41] Alan Seales: So we're live.

[2:43] Heather Vickery: We are live, go ahead.

[2:44] Alan Seales: In New York City.

[2:45] Heather Vickery: No, last night he's writing this. We're sitting together in his office. This is after we saw Back to the Future.

[2:49] Alan Seales: So it's like 11:30 at night.

[2:50] Heather Vickery: It's late at night. And he goes, heteronormativity. He was like, I'm gonna have to practice that word. I was like, yeah. If you're gonna be in this room, you're gonna have to practice that.

[3:02] Jasmine Rafael: She said, and she said it, I'm the person who has to practice it.

[3:05] Alan Seales: Exactly.

[3:06] Heather Vickery: Right.

[3:07] Jasmine Rafael: Tro.

[3:09] Alan Seales: You nailed it.

[3:10] Jasmine Rafael: Is that what I'm called on the tro?

[3:12] Alan Seales: No, it's a true, true, like...

[3:15] Jasmine Rafael: I thought you meant like heteronormative.

[3:18] Alan Seales: Oh, like a new lingo.

[3:19] Jasmine Rafael: Oh my god, you're a like pro hetero, like tro.

[3:22] Alan Seales: Oh, true.

[3:23] Jasmine Rafael: I like it.

[3:25] Alan Seales: Endearing.

[3:26] Jasmine Rafael: Kind of sounds like a dig on you, though.

[3:29] Alan Seales: So I don't want to say that.

[3:30] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[3:31] Alan Seales: We love heteros.

[3:33] Jasmine Rafael: Sometimes.

[3:34] Alan Seales: Thank you.

[3:35] Jasmine Rafael: No.

[3:37] Alan Seales: Is this a compliment?

[3:37] Jasmine Rafael: Oh, it is a compliment. Thank you.

[3:39] Alan Seales: Um, so yeah, I guess. Well, we'll start with the fact that you're a couple. Tell us how you met.

[3:42] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh. Oh, hey. You didn't know you were gonna get to tell your whole personal story here today, did you?

[3:48] Jasmine Rafael: We actually really like this story. Do you want to tell?

[3:51] Cassidy Hamilton: We always like tell our own versions.

[3:53] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, we met at Haswell Greens, actually. Um, have you been to Haswell's?

[4:01] Cassidy Hamilton: Do you know what Haswell's is?

[4:02] Alan Seales: No.

[4:03] Cassidy Hamilton: It's like now it's different than it was, but when I first graduated from college, it was like the place for young music theater BFAs to come and hang out at night.

[4:15] Jasmine Rafael: I love them. Um, so it feels like a silly place for us to have met.

[4:20] Cassidy Hamilton: Not silly, but like of course, like it was classic.

[4:24] Jasmine Rafael: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[4:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes. Um, do you, yeah, it was a mutual friend's birthday party, and I was like there hanging with my ex-girlfriend because I'm a lesbian and I'm friends with my ex-girlfriend.

[4:42] Jasmine Rafael: And then I um, I saw Cass and I was like telling my ex, I was like, that girl's so pretty.

[4:48] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, then I'm saying this to your ex.

[4:50] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, I mean, we're homies.

[4:51] Cassidy Hamilton: Right, right.

[4:52] Jasmine Rafael: Gay, you know.

[4:52] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, and then I was a gay, it's a gay thing we do.

[4:56] Jasmine Rafael: Okay, yeah. You're holding this mic so daintily.

[5:00] Cassidy Hamilton: It's like a cup of tea.

[5:01] Jasmine Rafael: Pinky up.

[5:02] Alan Seales: Pinky up, Heather.

[5:03] Jasmine Rafael: I love it. You gotta wrap your whole hand around.

[5:06] Cassidy Hamilton: Go ahead.

[5:07] Jasmine Rafael: That's not my forte. We've talked about this before.

[5:10] Cassidy Hamilton: Should I hold my mic? Now I'm feeling jealous.

[5:12] Jasmine Rafael: No, I don't know.

[5:13] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay.

[5:13] Jasmine Rafael: I'm having, I'm okay. There we go. If I get nervous, I'll put it back on the...

[5:17] Jasmine Rafael: They give us such a tiny table that we're making do. Okay. Um, go ahead, Jasmine.

[5:20] Jasmine Rafael: Yes. And then I saw Cass, and then I was like, and then I uh looked at my friend Michael, who's there, and then I was like, is this girl gay? Is this girl gay? And then um, yeah, they were putting it.

[5:35] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, they reported back to me that she was in fact queer, a gay.

[5:41] Jasmine Rafael: And then she was leaving, and then I told my ex-girlfriend Jenna, I was like, Oh, she's leaving, it's all good, it's all good, no, it's all good, I'll see her again. And she's like, bro, like you need to go say, like, go say like hi, you're beautiful. And I was like, no, no, no, I can't, like, I'm so afraid. And then she came like over to say bye to people close to us, and then my ex-girlfriend was like being the wingman and started just dancing awkwardly around her to like actually physically push her into me. It was like a movie, and I was like, stop, stop, bro. Like, and like it worked, and then Cass kind of like bumped into us and was like, okay, I could not believe my eyes. I was like, not this working. And then she looked at you and she said, Well, you're pretty. And then you go, What's that?

[6:20] Cassidy Hamilton: No, and then um, we got each other's numbers, and then I asked her, yeah.

[6:25] Jasmine Rafael: So what's your version?

[6:25] Cassidy Hamilton: My well, my version is that so Haswell Green. Some weirdo discarded dancing on the ground.

[6:30] Jasmine Rafael: No, no, no, no.

[6:30] Cassidy Hamilton: So Haswell Greens has a live band that plays, and they do a lot of requests, and it was our friend's birthday. So it was a lot of like Abba and Whitney and gay stuff. And then out of nowhere, I love young queers so much. You're so much more fun to hang out with than us old people. You gotta we gotta go to Haswell's tonight. Um, and then out of nowhere, like a country song starts playing. And I'm standing next to Jazz at this point, and I thought she was cute. Um, so I lean over to them and I'm like, hey, this got straight really fast. Like, because the music shifted to country music. Yeah, and she kind of laughed and like looked away, and then it was like, ha ha. And that was me trying to be like, you were trying to drink your music.

[7:17] Jasmine Rafael: Oh, sure. It's not a pickup line.

[7:19] Cassidy Hamilton: It's not a pickup line.

[7:22] Jasmine Rafael: She's like, I hit on her first.

[7:23] Cassidy Hamilton: I was like, what? Like anyone could have. I feel like especially straight girls nowadays, like they could even be like, oh, this got straight real quick. Like, I feel like, oh no. I was like, then it was. But I feel you.

[7:35] Jasmine Rafael: Yes.

[7:36] Cassidy Hamilton: It was my way of trying to be like, I'm gay. I don't know. I don't look at all me. And I'm trying to get over saying that because there's not a correct way to look at.

[7:47] Jasmine Rafael: There really isn't. Absolutely not.

[7:48] Cassidy Hamilton: But I know that if I'm in a social situation and I'm, you know, was trying, I saw this cute person and I wanted to let her know I was also gay and kind of thought she was cute. That was what I came up with in the moment. Um, yeah. But anyway, so yeah, and we ended up talking.

[8:04] Jasmine Rafael: I love that.

[8:05] Cassidy Hamilton: Yep. What I do think is cool, and I guess relevant to this podcast is that your ex, Jenna, um, works on a show. I don't know if she's still working on it, but she works on a show in Vegas that the show that I am an associate producer on is formatting our show off of and is hoping to do something really similar. So I knew what the show was. So I was saying, Oh, are you a performer? And Jenna was like, um, yeah, I'm doing a dance show in Vegas. And I was like, I know the show you're working on. And so that's kind of what made started the conversation. Um, I was like, You're working on Awakening, and she was like, How do you know what that is? And I was like, Oh, it's like I know what it is because I'm producing it. I'm working on a show that we're trying to have do something very similar. So we've done a lot of research on her that show. Um, yeah, and then we start talking about theater and the arts and what we do, and yep.

[8:56] Jasmine Rafael: And then we went to see SIX on our first date.

[8:58] Cassidy Hamilton: So yeah.

[9:00] Alan Seales: Wait, was this pre- or post-pandemic?

[9:02] Cassidy Hamilton: Post.

[9:02] Alan Seales: Post.

[9:03] Cassidy Hamilton: Post okay, okay.

[9:04] Alan Seales: Because I saw I saw SIX. I saw the final dress.

[9:07] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh the night before everything shut down.

[9:09] Alan Seales: Oh, sorry, not final dress, final uh preview.

[9:12] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, yeah.

[9:13] Alan Seales: I have a playbill, a SIX playbill from opening night that never happened.

[9:17] Cassidy Hamilton: Wow.

[9:18] Alan Seales: It's got the date on it.

[9:19] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, that's a cool thing to have.

[9:21] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah.

[9:22] Cassidy Hamilton: It was March 2020.

[9:23] Alan Seales: A relic.

[9:23] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, it's March 20th.

[9:25] Alan Seales: From the before times.

[9:25] Cassidy Hamilton: From the before time, yeah.

[9:28] Jasmine Rafael: You watch Silo, don't you?

[9:29] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh no, oh, because they use the word relic from the before times.

[9:32] Jasmine Rafael: They use the I have to tell you though, Cass, I feel you, because I also don't look gay.

[9:39] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure.

[9:39] Jasmine Rafael: And that isn't a thing. And we know, we know that that's not a thing. But my daughters have always joked that when I write my memoir, I should call it Not Your Typical Lesbian.

[9:48] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes, I love it.

[9:50] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, I'm like, I'll get too much hate for that. I can't do that.

[9:53] Alan Seales: Wait, so in the in the country space for the troos in the room, explain to me.

[9:57] Jasmine Rafael: Oh that's he's gonna try to make it a thing.

[10:01] Alan Seales: It's a thing now.

[10:02] Jasmine Rafael: It's all right.

[10:02] Alan Seales: For the trolls in the room, is there not gay country? Does that not exist?

[10:04] Cassidy Hamilton: No, I'm sure yeah, there's gotta be, but I just there's one TikTok trend. Do you guys have you guys heard it? It's just only for my kids would be like, um, mom, nobody's on the old people TikTok that you're on. There's one, they're old, there's all the things. I feel like I need to find it.

[10:19] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[10:20] Cassidy Hamilton: I mean, there's just lots of different kinds of I don't know. The ticket is a good one. I mean, it's literally a country song, but it's about gay sex. Like man on man, gay sex. Oh, I don't think it's a parody, but it's pretty great.

[10:30] Jasmine Rafael: Oh, I love it.

[10:31] Cassidy Hamilton: Right. I'm sure there is gay country music, but in the way I think about country music is straight people.

[10:38] Jasmine Rafael: I don't know.

[10:39] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure. That's it. That's cool. Okay, so the chance you were both at Haswell's.

[10:42] Jasmine Rafael: Yep.

[10:43] Cassidy Hamilton: You both met some weirdo creep done dancing issues.

[10:47] Jasmine Rafael: Very nice lady.

[10:48] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[10:49] Jasmine Rafael: She's why we're going to be able to do it.

[10:52] Cassidy Hamilton: No, just like social media friends. She likes all our pictures. She's like friends now. I can't believe this happened. Like she's so happy.

[10:57] Jasmine Rafael: And then uh Pretty Witty and Gay Cabaret.

[11:00] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure. What was like you started dating after SIX, so it was post-pandemic, so it was at least 2021-ish.

[11:07] Jasmine Rafael: It was recently.

[11:08] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, we said we're gay. It was like eight months ago.

[11:12] Jasmine Rafael: And then they moved in together.

[11:13] Cassidy Hamilton: We are moving in together now next month.

[11:16] Jasmine Rafael: The adoption goes through tomorrow.

[11:18] Cassidy Hamilton: LOL.

[11:19] Jasmine Rafael: Egg retrieval happening.

[11:21] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, but then why start the cabaret? Where did that? And this is not the first incarnation of the cabaret either.

[11:27] Jasmine Rafael: So, hey, why start it? And then we'll get to Green Room 42 next week.

[11:32] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah. Um, it was Pride Month. We were coming up on Pride Month, and I had wanted to do something like this for a really long time. Uh and Jazz was like, you should just email some spaces and see if they have this.

[11:44] Jasmine Rafael: Do it.

[11:44] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, just do it. Uh so yeah, I reached out to a couple of venues and a lot of places weren't responding. And Jazz was like, Chelsea Table and Stage is cool. You should contact them. And I was like, they're never gonna respond back. Like it this is just a huge concept, and it's really last minute, and um, yeah, I emailed them and they got back to me in like six hours, and were like, we have these days available if you want to do it, and it came together really quickly.

[12:09] Jasmine Rafael: Um, and we had so much fun, and it's a joy getting to work together, and the goal was to hopefully make it a monthly thing.

[12:21] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, I love that.

[12:22] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, if it we would love for it to be like fun um monthly or every other month. So yeah, we did a Pride Month one, it was a big success. And now we have one coming up next week. So and then we're hoping for another one in maybe October.

[12:36] Cassidy Hamilton: So playfully challenge the heteronormativity of the American musical by providing refreshing and exuberant new queer twist on your favorite Broadway hits.

[12:45] Heather Vickery: I want to dissect that.

[12:46] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, yes.

[12:47] Heather Vickery: Because give me an example of a song that you have now.

[12:53] Jasmine Rafael: Uh oh, yeah.

[12:55] Cassidy Hamilton: They sing.

[12:56] Jasmine Rafael: I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

[12:58] Cassidy Hamilton: I know you sing.

[12:59] Jasmine Rafael: I know that you sing.

[13:00] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[13:01] Jasmine Rafael: My eyes are so wide right now.

[13:02] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes, yes, yes.

[13:03] Jasmine Rafael: It's just I'm tired.

[13:03] Cassidy Hamilton: I've got a couple more coming to my head colds.

[13:06] Jasmine Rafael: I will explain to you why I just got so excited later. Anyway, okay, so I know you sing. So what are the songs that you are that you're starting out? And like I guess you said you want to do it for a while. So first answer the question, let's say like what song, but then I want to back up again and say, like, why did you want to do this?

[13:20] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure. Um, some of the songs that we had even in the in the first iteration was Notice Me, Horton, that our friend Andrew Purdy did. That's you know, typically sung by a character that is female, and uh we did Hopelessly Devoted to You, which our friend Michael Shimley did. Um I did Shic's a Goddess, you know. So it's it's really every song that is like, oh yeah, of course this is a man singing to a woman, a woman singing to a man. Um, but what happens when it's not, and it doesn't even matter most of the time. Um and even if it changes like details of this song, it's it's like kind of fun.

[14:03] Jasmine Rafael: And I think that a lot of it is um, you know, there's a lot of heteronormativity in any industry, but especially in the theater industry, um, that I think it's like why why couldn't there be sort of a gay Gertrude McFuzz.

[14:21] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes, or a or um a gay story in Hades Town.

[14:25] Jasmine Rafael: Like, why does it necessarily have to be that um, you know, queer people that are maybe a little bit more in their uh in the middle of their mask and feminine energy. I I feel like why why wouldn't I be able to uh you know, understudy Francois in my show or something like that.

[14:45] Jasmine Rafael: I I think especially you know, with voice parts that are more normalized in theater. Like this person is a soprano and an alto, and this person is a tenor, like how um women or femme people are supposed to learn, like to expand their range to these higher places, like for what and why, and I think that's never been questioned, and I think that's something that feels limiting.

[15:08] Jasmine Rafael: Like when I was in the dance industry, I was a crumper, I was a freestyle crumper and a popper and and whatever. And then I got to LA and then I I stopped crumping because I was like, oh well, I'm a girl, so I have to learn heels, and then so I had to like just learn heels for like then, of course, I did lots of jobs in heels, and I had to just learn ballet and jazz. Um, but now as I w uh got into my more masculine sort of expression, I started crumping again and freestyling again and doing my own thing. And and that is, and I'm on this job now as a as a freestyler. So anyway, that's just kind of a roundabout way to say.

[15:46] Jasmine Rafael: Um that's why I think that we're sort of doing it to expand those opportunities to see what it could look like in theory. Um we'd love to see it in practice, right? So it would be really cool to, you know, actually see a production of Susical or a production of Greece or a production of we joke about gay grease all the time. I'm like Greece. This would be amazing. So I'm there. It's so can be anyways, just like go all the way.

[16:13] Jasmine Rafael: But um uh yeah, there was a couple songs from the last five years. Uh songs from Bridges of Madison County again, shows that I just could see being queer so easily.

[16:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah. Um, so that's the concept. And now it's just it's it's become a lot of different things. Some it's an opportunity for the queer community to kind of just sing whatever they want. I love that. Um, so I'm I'm really excited about uh the tunes we have for our next one. We're singing another duet, which will be fun. Um yeah, it's it's been uh it's been a lot of fun, and I think that it's a joyful space and a safe space and just an opportunity to get together with our friends and our family.

[16:57] Jasmine Rafael: And yeah. Sorry, baby.

[16:58] Cassidy Hamilton: No, go ahead.

[16:58] Jasmine Rafael: Like how Vogue started. It's like um a lot of Vogue uh Vogue was a space for the gay community to come in and be models and do punking and whacking and posing, which were because they could not be models in the standard space of what what models were.

[17:15] Jasmine Rafael: So a lot of Vogue is runway and like that sort of thing, uh a place where they could be what they thought they were inside, like what they could be, but there was no space for them to do that. And so it was like a a beautiful and cathartic surprise when we would be like asking our friends, yo, do you want to do this thing? This is the concept, and they're like, Yes, especially queer people, and they're like, oh my god, yeah, I have so many songs that I would want to do, but I never thought I could. So it's like giving them almost that same space that's reminiscent of that.

[17:48] Jasmine Rafael: That like, you know, come in, do whatever you want. We're gonna take a quick break.

[17:51] Alan Seales: Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[17:55] Jasmine Rafael: And now we're back. Creating that safe space um and turning things on their head a little. We're in this really weird space politically, countrywise, maybe in the entire world, where we are at once so much more integrated and advanced than we ever could have been, and also that feel like we've gone back a thousand steps.

[18:17] Cassidy Hamilton: And so when we think about creating those spaces, yeah, and saying, come here, like let's try this. And when we when we want to think about manifestation, like what are we manifesting when we create spaces like that?

[18:30] Jasmine Rafael: Like, I'll bet you've already seen it. What has shown up for you guys since you decided to create that space that you're like, I didn’t even know that could come.

[18:42] Cassidy Hamilton: I think that when we talk about the project as a whole, and when we talk about our little baby production company that we started, and as it takes off, yeah. Um, it's a lot of fun. We have a good time. SKYLAR STUDIOS.

[18:55] Jasmine Rafael: SKYLAR STUDIOS. It is named after um my Corgi. Uh Skylar. Skylar was my par my family's first Corgi.

[19:03] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh.

[19:03] Jasmine Rafael: And I've always wanted, I'm like, I always just wanted to have my own company named SKYLAR STUDIOS. And Jazz was like, Well, let's name it SKYLAR STUDIOS. So that's that.

[19:11] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, I think that everyone craves this kind of creative opportunity. It just takes people organizing it.

[19:23] Jasmine Rafael: It just takes somebody organizing it and saying, Hey, this is what time we're gonna show up. This is where it's gonna be. Invite your friends.

[19:29] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[19:29] Jasmine Rafael: And then it's hard. It's actually hard.

[19:32] Cassidy Hamilton: I'll take that.

[19:34] Jasmine Rafael: Thank you.

[19:34] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[19:35] Jasmine Rafael: We'll take that. We work really hard on it.

[19:37] Cassidy Hamilton: We work really hard in it.

[19:38] Jasmine Rafael: And um, and people come out and come through. And I think that that's that's what's the most beautiful thing about it.

[19:45] Alan Seales: Was it difficult to find people to fill the space? Or like you were just asking your friends and they were lining up and saying yes?

[19:52] Cassidy Hamilton: Honestly, yeah. I I would have a feeling when I would like I would be next to my friend Ben Jackson Walker, who's he is the lead in our show, and Julia, and I was just right next to him, and then I had a feeling, and I was like, I actually asked him before I asked Cass. And I was like, Would you and Evan, um, their partner want to be in pretty witty gay? This is what it is.

[20:11] Jasmine Rafael: Oh my god, yeah.

[20:13] Cassidy Hamilton: And it was just a light up moment, and I just felt like I was meant to ask them, and then I asked Cass after.

[20:18] Jasmine Rafael: Sorry, baby.

[20:19] Cassidy Hamilton: I was like, um, can I ask Ben and Evan? Like, I literally had already asked them.

[20:25] Jasmine Rafael: Um, but yeah, it was almost like pretty a really enthusiastic yes from the people that we thought of, and people were asking us to be a part of it.

[20:36] Cassidy Hamilton: When they heard about it, um, a couple people in our show this time asked their friends, I want to be connected, you know, with pretty witty gay.

[20:45] Jasmine Rafael: And I think, yeah, I as you were saying, what what sort of manifests from creating this space is uh an intimacy, I think, yeah, is inherently within the idea of you're queer, you want to do you want to do something that you never thought that you could do?

[21:04] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[21:05] Jasmine Rafael: There's a vulnerability in that and sort of a catharsis in that that is that just happens in the space, and then the audience sort of felt it.

[21:15] Cassidy Hamilton: My friend came from another show before our first uh before our show at Chelsea Table at Sony Hall.

[21:23] Jasmine Rafael: And then came to ours and said, oh my gosh.

[21:26] Cassidy Hamilton: It was like I was so uh happy to be in your space because I just came from this big show, which was amazing. And then now it's in uh it's like we're all in a living room singing around a campfire.

[21:36] Jasmine Rafael: I want to go to there.

[21:38] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[21:39] Jasmine Rafael: Well, hopefully we'll have a lot more.

[21:41] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay.

[21:41] Jasmine Rafael: So come on in from Chicago, bring your kids.

[21:43] Cassidy Hamilton: I will do it.

[21:43] Jasmine Rafael: You could trail, you could tour it to Chicago.

[21:46] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, that'd be very cool.

[21:48] Jasmine Rafael: That'd be amazing. And there's incredible artists in. I'm from uh Baltimore originally, or outside Baltimore, and I think that uh there's a lot of cities that would would love to do this.

[22:00] Cassidy Hamilton: I do want to say something that's just on my mind with um, I think the concept of, and I'm I'm if you're listening and you can't see me, I'm using air quotes, but the concept of gender bending is um I think something that is done in cabarets a lot.

[22:14] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[22:14] Cassidy Hamilton: And I and I think that that's a beautiful concept.

[22:16] Jasmine Rafael: And I think this space that we've created acknowledges that it's more than just gender bending a song.

[22:25] Cassidy Hamilton: Um it it really is bringing a different level of of queerness and queer understanding to our art form that we love so much.

[22:35] Jasmine Rafael: You know, yeah, like there's a little nuance. There's like a reality to the song. Like it's like I'm singing Shicsa Goddess. I'm like, hey, hey, she's like I'm looking at like goddess as a as a woman myself.

[22:47] Cassidy Hamilton: Like you're a goddess.

[22:48] Jasmine Rafael: I uh uh love and admire you and hold space for you as a woman myself, not just like, oh, a girl doing Shicksagades, trendy. Not that that's what people are doing before, but um, yeah, it's I it's a little more than gender bending.

[23:03] Cassidy Hamilton: I w I want there to be a reality to it.

[23:05] Jasmine Rafael: And and our performers really bring that honesty to the space.

[23:09] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, and people aren't like laughing before, like, oh, of course, like that's crazy. You're doing hopelessly devoted.

[23:15] Jasmine Rafael: Like they're like, oh my gosh, like this. You're feeling really your truth.

[23:18] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[23:19] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[23:19] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[23:19] Jasmine Rafael: So I just wanted to say that.

[23:21] Cassidy Hamilton: No, I'm so glad you did.

[23:22] Jasmine Rafael: Sure.

[23:22] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[23:23] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[23:23] Cassidy Hamilton: Because it hits different.

[23:24] Jasmine Rafael: Sure.

[23:25] Cassidy Hamilton: It's real.

[23:25] Jasmine Rafael: It's real.

[23:26] Cassidy Hamilton: And and what I was this question that was rattling that I think I have the answer to now was like, do you do you have to identify with being queer to be able to really make this real and true?

[23:38] Jasmine Rafael: Like, because could I come up and explore singing a love song to a man as as someone who's identified as as being straight my entire life?

[23:46] Cassidy Hamilton: We talk about this a lot, actually.

[23:48] Jasmine Rafael: I would actually like it would be fun to to ex to push myself outside comfort comfort zones and see what it's like. But is that like well, I mean, gender expression and expressing your sexuality isn't exclusive to queer people.

[24:01] Cassidy Hamilton: Right.

[24:02] Jasmine Rafael: Um, or exploring your sexuality. Right? It it just isn't.

[24:05] Cassidy Hamilton: Um shouldn't be.

[24:07] Jasmine Rafael: And if we're talking, I mean, we could really go in here, but um That's what she said.

[24:12] Cassidy Hamilton: There you go.

[24:13] Jasmine Rafael: Actually, it's not.

[24:14] Cassidy Hamilton: It's actually not low Al.

[24:19] Jasmine Rafael: I can't.

[24:19] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, true.

[24:23] Jasmine Rafael: Oh my god, oh Alan.

[24:24] Cassidy Hamilton: Um have you seen the Barbie movie yet?

[24:27] Jasmine Rafael: Yes.

[24:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Alan.

[24:29] Jasmine Rafael: I know that I have a I have a post on my Instagram that there's only one Alan.

[24:32] Cassidy Hamilton: I love it.

[24:32] Jasmine Rafael: I love it.

[24:33] Cassidy Hamilton: One of the best movies I've ever seen.

[24:35] Jasmine Rafael: It's so good.

[24:35] Cassidy Hamilton: But I love the I love Alan.

[24:37] Jasmine Rafael: Like I love the concept of Alan.

[24:40] Cassidy Hamilton: Alan's the ally.

[24:41] Jasmine Rafael: Alan's the, you know, you know.

[24:42] Cassidy Hamilton: Um anyways, that is to say, right now on the project, we're we're trying to prioritize creating space for queer performers and kind of having it be a celebration of queer folks on Broadway.

[24:58] Jasmine Rafael: However, it's not exclusive to the queer community. We have had ally performers, and I do know we want to have ally performers going forward as well.

[25:06] Cassidy Hamilton: Um yeah.

[25:08] Jasmine Rafael: We're building it as we go, so it's changing constantly.

[25:11] Cassidy Hamilton: And I think it we gradually step, even crawl towards the vision of what does queer really mean?

[25:20] Jasmine Rafael: You know, and I think that there's a I don't I don't know, not everyone agrees with this in a way, but I think that everyone is queer in a way.

[25:31] Cassidy Hamilton: And it's and I don't want to take that away from someone that is straight, uh, their experiences in their life or where where they feel a little more queer and and um yeah, I think the purpose for me at least, and for us, like our vision is uh not separation from each other, but in fact seeing the the sameness and and what resonates in each person.

[25:56] Jasmine Rafael: It's not saying I'm special in this way, and so you don't understand me. It's yo, look inside. You actually do understand me. Let's, you know, let's move along.

[26:06] Cassidy Hamilton: It's never about it.

[26:08] Jasmine Rafael: It's not ever about queerness, it's not ever about sexuality.

[26:10] Cassidy Hamilton: It's obviously that's what theater is.

[26:12] Jasmine Rafael: It's relating to a woman that's had an abortion.

[26:16] Cassidy Hamilton: If you're a you know, if you're a straight man who has you know what I mean, in a way, I I think that that is the the goal at the end of the day.

[26:25] Cassidy Hamilton: But it's not a good thing.

[26:25] Jasmine Rafael: The art form is relating to each other, correct?

[26:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Right?

[26:28] Jasmine Rafael: Like that is what theater is. It is relating to your fellow artists on stage with you and relating to an audience that's observing.

[26:35] Cassidy Hamilton: So you have to have the community there, right?

[26:38] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[26:39] Cassidy Hamilton: It is a a spectrum though, I think for everybody, and you're definitely a little gay.

[26:44] Jasmine Rafael: I mean, or a little queer.

[26:47] Cassidy Hamilton: A little queer, I think is probably the right way to say that.

[26:49] Jasmine Rafael: It's we've had this conversation about like well, finish what you're saying.

[26:53] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[26:54] Jasmine Rafael: But yeah, I mean, I just anybody who spent any amount of time with you can easily tell.

[26:59] Cassidy Hamilton: But is that is that because of the stereotyp heteronormativity associated behind what it is to be a man or a woman, a straight man or woman?

[27:09] Jasmine Rafael: Sure, sure.

[27:09] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[27:13] Jasmine Rafael: Like by stereotype.

[27:15] Cassidy Hamilton: I mean, well, you've you've spent more time with him, so tell us what you're saying.

[27:18] Jasmine Rafael: And I do think that that plays a huge role in it.

[27:20] Jasmine Rafael: And you just said that um your expression isn't related to your queerness per se, and we know that, and people push back on that a lot.

[27:28] Cassidy Hamilton: I think of hairstyles when people say that.

[27:31] Jasmine Rafael: Umce you're a rock star, you can do anything you want, but it's not a good thing.

[27:34] Cassidy Hamilton: Except he gets a lot of heat for queer baiting, which all he's trying to do is just be his damn self out there.

[27:40] Jasmine Rafael: And I get really.

[27:46] Cassidy Hamilton: But like worse, like using the term worse, like is it weird or is that some heteronormant shit right there?

[27:51] Jasmine Rafael: No, I just no, you're right.

[27:52] Cassidy Hamilton: It's it's more extreme.

[27:53] Jasmine Rafael: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[27:54] Cassidy Hamilton: More intense, more intense.

[27:55] Jasmine Rafael: Um but it's also how you feel on the inside.

[27:57] Cassidy Hamilton: Like, if you're like, no, I'm I don't feel queer, I don't feel gay, I don't feel then that's you are Alan, you know?

[28:03] Cassidy Hamilton: Like you you you said you have two kids.

[28:06] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[28:07] Cassidy Hamilton: Are you are you married? Do you have a spouse?

[28:08] Jasmine Rafael: Yes, female, yes.

[28:09] Cassidy Hamilton: Great, and you love your spouse, and you love your kids, and you love your job.

[28:13] Jasmine Rafael: Yes.

[28:13] Cassidy Hamilton: And here we go. But I also appreciate a good looking man. It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I thought, oh, maybe when I say that, it feels different inside than when this other girl over here says it who just is, you know, like, wow, I want to be pretty like that, or whatever. Um, I didn't know. I didn't know any lesbians. I didn't I knew like a couple gay men, and it wasn't until it occurred to me that well, that's just the way women talk about one another. But that feels different to me. Um, so that kind I don't know where I'm going with that.

[28:45] Jasmine Rafael: No, no, no, no, no. I think that's beautiful. I don't know. I I um I only came out like a year and a half ago.

[28:50] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, congratulations.

[28:52] Jasmine Rafael: My my people call you a baby gay.

[28:54] Cassidy Hamilton: And baby gay.

[28:55] Jasmine Rafael: I yeah, I I I've been out um I now identify as a lesbian. Um, but I I came out as bi in college and I did that too.

[29:02] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, right.

[29:03] Jasmine Rafael: But I I I I understand that a lot. The way that I just related to women and men growing up, and not really I didn't have a lot of queer women in my in my world.

[29:14] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[29:15] Jasmine Rafael: Um, and I grew up doing theater, so I had a lot of a lot of queer men in my world, and I just, you know, you you grow and you you figure it out as it comes to you, and I think we change as we as we grow old, like where we are on the spectrum shifts and moves, and like remember telling my kids like you may feel this way now and you may feel a different way later, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, there's it's beautiful. You know, whatever whatever you feel is the right thing for you. And I think also the separation of what is the function of me even uh having to make a decision about this right now.

[29:48] Cassidy Hamilton: Right.

[29:48] Jasmine Rafael: Is it for me? Because then that's amazing. Is it for other people? That's not bad either. But I think sometimes labels are just easier for other people, I think, and um, so even in this, you know, conversation, this faux conversation about asking about your queerness, I'm like, sorry to put you on the spot. Which right make you come out. What is the function of a conversation like that? Is it is it better to be like, yeah, I mean, I don't really, yeah, I I uh I see what you're saying, but I don't really feel queer inside. That will help someone make someone else feel seen that feels the same way that has those insecurities, or are you saying, I don't have a problem with saying I might be a little queer.

That also represents something for someone watching. So it's it's all all the function, and I think also taking away the pressure of like, um, if I, you know, I'm exp I'm me myself, I'm exploring my own gender expression. You know, I've just recently changed my pronouns, and that's like, who is that, you know, is that now because I did that in front of everyone, do I have to stay there? And it's it's uh no, this one is for myself, or so I think just also defining that so that it doesn't get too confusing for you, you know, just being like, okay, I'm this is what and it can change. And it can change, and you can change your mind a million times, you know.

[31:05] Cassidy Hamilton: I love that.

[31:06] Jasmine Rafael: Well, so that was recent. Um Demi Lovato changed their pronouns and then changed them back.

[31:13] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure.

[31:14] Jasmine Rafael: And a lot of the people that I follow were like, I just wish she can use both. They could use like whatever. But you don't have to pick. And I will say, um, you know, I've got a couple of gen alpha kids. I got a Gen Zier and a couple Gen Alphas, and they don't want labels.

[31:30] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, they are not interested.

[31:32] Jasmine Rafael: They don't want to pick. They don't want to settle. They're gonna do whatever. Uh and I kind of love that because that's really the goal, isn't it? Like you never have to state anything, you never have to come out. No, you just get to show up. And that's that's what we're trying to manifest. And that's when I think about your show. Like to me, we're manifesting that future by by you creating it, by people showing up in that space, by wanting to perform in it, by wanting to envision themselves in these roles. It's just that's how we make things happen.

[32:04] Cassidy Hamilton: And we're sorry.

[32:05] Jasmine Rafael: No, go, baby.

[32:06] Cassidy Hamilton: Cool. So we had like young queer people come see our performance. And I think it was really special just to have that space. Um and exactly that, like what you're saying about your kids. There's there's not a right or a wrong way to explore who you are and who you want to be. And there's you don't have to define yourself, and you can change a million times. And I just we're we are creating that actively, and I think that's really special.

[32:28] Cassidy Hamilton: Well, what was the chance? Bring it back to the podcast a second. What was the chance you took? Like you said you came out a year and a half ago. Was it like you just knew or knew it all in?

[32:34] Jasmine Rafael: Sure. You were totally in.

[32:39] Jasmine Rafael: Um that it's a long story. Um, I it was definitely a process. I think I started exploring um the idea of my queerness again back in college. And I'm very lucky that I have super supportive parents. And um I called my mom and I was like, I think I'm by. I think I think I'm bye. And she was like, cool. And then shortly after that, I said to my dad, I was like, I think I'm by. And then just over time it was, I think I'm gayer than we thought. And then it was just like, um, yeah, and then here we are. And it has, I mean you know, there's been a lot of transition, and um, um, but I it's the biggest risk I ever took, and it uh I I wouldn't change it for anything.

[33:26] Cassidy Hamilton: We're gonna take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[33:30] Jasmine Rafael: And now we're back.

[33:32] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, what about you, Jess?

[33:34] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[33:34] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, I came out also later when I was 23, but it wasn't I was not like harboring it at all. I've me and my best friend, oh yeah, I was like, oh wait, I'm in love with you. It was a little bit more of a yeah, that was a little kind of a clear sign, but um, it was a risk at the time, right? It seemed like a choice at the time, but I think as a queer person, I've talked about this with my very close queer friends. Once you choose that and you realize how alive it makes you and how much you almost feel like you could like spiritually die going back, it doesn't necessarily feel like a risk. It feels like more of a risk to not choose the things that make you alive. It feels like I've felt what it would be like to almost not choose this, and and so to move forward, it almost feels like no no choice.

It feels like it would be braver, quote unquote, for me to not go towards the things that make me feel alive because I would have to be like in this space where I'm just like brave all the time and I'm just withstanding things. When I move towards this space, I at least feel like the universe is sort of like with me, and I I at least am with my truth, even if the circumstances around me, you know, my mom wasn't my my mom wasn't like overjoyed that I came out at first, and she knows that and she's great now, but those things are easier when you have a sense of truth within you, and so now whenever I'm I'm, you know, going towards something scary, like I just go, yeah, but I'm I already chose that I'm gonna like dive into being queer and that and it kept me alive.

So if I want to stay alive, you know, I left I left evangelical Christianity. I you know, left the dance industry, I moved from my, you know, it's all of these things that seem big, but it's like when it's clear, it's clear, y'all know. When it's clear, it's clear, and you're like, I have to keep staying alive, otherwise the the Jasmine that was 23 that came out when to be queer, like she'd be like, yo, you just you just stopped doing this after five years, after 10 years. We we did this not to be gay. We did this to stay alive. We did this to keep being alive and moving forward and being generative and being expansive. Um, so yeah, I wouldn't call it a risk, I think.

[36:00] Cassidy Hamilton: I resonate with that so much.

[36:02] Jasmine Rafael: So I came out at 38 uh after four kids and a decade of marriage and got a divorce, and I have often said, I have been known to say that it occurred to me that if I wanted my children to believe that they could do and have anything that they wanted, that I needed to show them how. And I stand by that. Uh, but recently one of my daughters said to me, You did not get a divorce for us. Just admit it. And I say, You're right, I didn't. I did it for me. I did it for me because it was gonna kill me. So when you say to stay alive, like I had to, and I said, but that had to be better for you. Yeah, it had to be. Of course.

[36:44] Jasmine Rafael: So I just really feel that, like that deep sense of this is a life or death choice. Like, am I gonna live really or not?

[36:54] Cassidy Hamilton: Correct. Thank you for sharing that.

[36:56] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, thank you. I was gonna ask Jazz why uh or how you made the switch from dance into into the Broadway world because it's it's uh in talking to other people who have danced in the pop tour and the pop scene before it, like to get into Broadway is it's it's two different, it's two different ecosystems.

[37:13] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[37:13] Cassidy Hamilton: So it's hard to make the switch, but you'd just mention it as part of le finding out who you are uh in terms of sexual sexuality. And so I'm curious about that, if you don't mind sharing what it was about the dance world that was like I'm I'm I don't I should be straight outwardly when I'm in my dance world, but in the Broadway world I can be who I am.

[37:34] Jasmine Rafael: It's not yes, definitely. That is that is totally a thing. I think that um now there's just a lot more queerness in the dance world. It's just like so much different now. Uh, but I think it's more personal associating my old old self with like, you know, my hair long and down and curly and all my headshots were literally like in a bikini and wow, all of these things, yeah, like in the in the dance world. It was more so like the really femme Jasmine. And I think just by chance, in the in the way that time has gone for me, you know, being in being an Angelia and even my cast members have seen me change quite a bit in terms of my gender expression. So it's more of like a personal journey. Um, but yeah, there's not, I think back then, even it's a time thing, like 2019, 2018 is when I just was like, I I want to tell bigger stories.

I don't want to just be a backup dancer. Um, and maybe it had a lot to do with gender expression. Right now, the Kaylani tour. Yeah, y'all know Kaylani, the artist, um, my friend Cass, they did the the tour, and it's all, you know, just the gayest. It's the gayest tour ever. If I was back there, maybe I would have stayed for a little bit, you know what I mean? But but I was like, oh, I want to tell bigger stories, so I left the dance industry. Um, but that was 2018, and you know, you would go to audition sometimes, and it it would be like Christina Aguilera, and then you would just see girls being like, Oh yeah, yeah, like it's just just take your shirt off. Yeah, and you would just take because you had a little bra under, and you would just be like, taking your shirt off.

All the men would just be like taking their shirt off. We would just be dancing a certain way. And it there was no question about it. That's just like how it was. And so um, yeah, maybe that was a little bit subconsciously in there. I I wanted to tell bigger stories, so I eventually I just like stopped taking dance jobs and I and became a server. I was dancing professionally for a while, and I I loved serving, I love that job. And then from there, I I didn't like dance and then get a Broadway job. I danced, took a chance, and just like started serving, and then just went to acting school. And then I think that open energy, like, I don't know. I then they called me and Juliet. Um, they need somebody to move to New York in six days.

[39:47] Cassidy Hamilton: Where were you in LA?

[39:49] Jasmine Rafael: Mm-hmm. Wow. That's amazing.

[39:50] Cassidy Hamilton: So we see you auditioned in LA for Angelina.

[39:54] Jasmine Rafael: I didn't even audition. I sent in tapes because I didn't even really have time, honestly. I said I sang since you've been gone. And then, yeah, and then two days later, they're like, Can you move? Yeah, we know you move, you would have to move in like a week. Is that cool? And I was like, Yeah, I literally had given up going to New York. I was like, kept wanting to go to New York, it wasn't working. Then I said to my manager, yo, stop sending me stuff to New York. Um, I decided I'm gonna just stay in LA. I'm gonna stay here. Like, it's all good. So I like gave up. You know what I mean? That happens. When you give up, then that's when you get it.

[40:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Wasn't even the fucksgiving? Like, why not?

[40:28] Jasmine Rafael: Literally, and then they were like, but look at this. I wasn't gonna send this to you. Like just very typical story. And then I was like, okay, I'll send a tape, but whatever. And then like, I'm now I live here.

[40:39] Cassidy Hamilton: That's some, but that's some beautiful manifestation juju right there, which is um yeah, sure. Yeah, why not?

[40:45] Jasmine Rafael: Jasmine is a master manifester, in my humble opinion. I think you would just say that you you practice um aligning yourself with what you want and the universe, and and you it is very intentional. Um, but it's beautiful to behold as your partner. Like it's cool to watch.

[41:05] Cassidy Hamilton: Thanks, babe.

[41:06] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah. Cass, what about you? As far as career goes, what sort of intentional risk did you take, or what turns you thought were maybe the wrong turn turned out to be the right turn? What sort of got you here?

[41:19] Cassidy Hamilton: So I was an actor for a long time. I went to school for I have my BFA. Um pre-pandemic, was doing the whole audition thing. Um, like final callbacks for tons of Broadway shows and tours, and and just like was waiting. It felt very much like one day, it's just gonna happen. It's not when it's it, it's not if it's when, right? That that kind of sensation. And um, and then the pandemic hit. And at the time I was in call box for like three shows, like, and um, yeah. And uh I actually this I'll I will tell the story because it feels relevant to your your theme. Um, but there was a show, um, a very popular Broadway show. I was in eight rounds of callbacks for it. Like, I just thought it was gonna happen. I thought it was gonna happen.

[42:04] Jasmine Rafael: Um, and then my agents at the time called and were like, hey, they're going with somebody else, they really love you, they'll see you again for it. Um and if I had ended up getting that, I wouldn't have been able to go and spend Christmas with my grandfather, who it was the it ended up being the last time I saw him before he passed away. Um and if I had gotten this job, I wouldn't have been able to be home for that. Um and then like two months later the pandemic hit. So uh everything shut down, and during that time everyone was having their do I go to grad school moment? You know, everyone was like, I don't know what I want to do. Um and during that time I started writing and kind of dreaming up a lot of these concept for projects that had always kind of been in my mind and then I had journaled about a lot, but had never taken any active steps towards, and um called a lot of my friends and said, Hey, I have this idea for this thing.

What do you think? Is it sound cool? And people were like, that's amazing. And I'm very lucky that I have a really strong support system of people who said, that's cool, you should lean into that. Uh and same with my family. So when I came back to New York, uh, I was still actively auditioning, and uh, this is this feels like a long story now, but it is my story, and I'm really proud of it. And I feel like I do talk about it a lot. Um came out to New York, started auditioning again. Um all of the shows that I have done have all been new works projects, uh, which is uh my heart is really in developing new theater, and uh I feel very lucky to have worked on some really, really cool uh developmental theater projects, and that's always been where my heart is.

So I was still auditioning, auditioning for a lot of developmental theater. I got to a point where my my I wasn't publicly out yet. My mental health was really poor, and I said, I am quitting theater. I'm gonna stop auditioning and I'm going to prioritize my mental health. So what year? This is last year. Last year, last year a year ago. A year ago. I guess a year and change now. Like last um spring. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so I guess April 2022. 22. Yeah. Sure. Um, yeah, yeah. And uh I'm like, what year is it? Um yeah, and I quit auditioning. Um my agents dropped me, and I just I said, okay, I got into therapy, I got the mental health I needed, I started medication, and my life changed. And I knew that I wanted to start tapping into my other creative pursuits because I am a big fat theater nerd.

Like I love theater. I love being a part of it in any way that I can. And I think learning that lesson was so valuable. I love performing, and I love performing in Pretty Witty. Um, but I don't I don't feel as if I have to be an actor as my career to feel joy and to feel connected to the industry that I love. So um there was a day uh last I guess it was October 2022, August 2022, and I was at my retail job, and I just had had enough, and I sat on the bathroom floor of my retail job, and I said, universe, I I am ready for whatever it is. I don't know what it is, but I'm ready for it. And I literally sat on the bathroom floor crying, arms open. Um, and I I got up off the bathroom floor, I went upstairs, and I ran into Dina, who is now my boss, um, and she had a baseball cap on that said Avalona.

And I I said, What's Avalona? She said, Oh, I'm I'm a recording artist and uh uh producer, and I'm working that's the new musical I'm working on. And I was like, I I can we get coffee? I want to hear about it. And then a week later we were getting uh we had Aperol Spritzes and she told me about her project. And it's the second mention of Aperol Spritz this weekend. They're so good. Um yeah, and um she I she told me about the project. I told her about what you know, what I'm passionate about, what I love. And um, she comes from the music industry more so than a more traditional Broadway background. And uh, and she said, I want you to do this with me. So I helped cast it. I was her associate producer, we're still working on it now. I'm helping her cast another project on Monday, and and that's that's that. I love that.

[46:42] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, so I mean that moment of it's similar, right? Like, I'm gonna choose to be alive. And I'm gonna choose to be alive. And I choose to be alive. Like, okay, just show me what it is. I'm paying attention.

[46:54] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, you don't have to know. I say I always say that surrender is the work of my life. Yeah, like okay, I can I can see something coming and I can let go of how I'm gonna get there and just be ready. Right.

[47:06] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, and just let it happen and be open to the twists and turns. And um, yeah, so and then I started my own production company with Jasmine, and we do those things.

[47:21] Jasmine Rafael: What other stuff do you guys are you working on?

[47:23] Cassidy Hamilton: In Skylar Studios?

[47:24] Jasmine Rafael: SKYLAR STUDIOS.

[47:25] Cassidy Hamilton: So Skylar Studios is the joke in your logo, yeah.

[47:29] Jasmine Rafael: It's not that, it is a Corgi in the logo.

[47:29] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay.

[47:29] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah.

[47:29] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay.

[47:34] Jasmine Rafael: Thanks for letting me do that. I was like, can we just make the Corgi? And like our Instagram has my sister's Corgi featured on it. And just a whimsical little silly fun thing.

[47:48] Cassidy Hamilton: You and the late Queen.

[47:49] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah. Gosh.

[47:49] Cassidy Hamilton: Literally.

[47:53] Jasmine Rafael: I did see a Corgi on the way here.

[47:56] Cassidy Hamilton: And Corgis are good luck.

[47:57] Jasmine Rafael: Oh, okay. Manifest Corgis like I've never seen before. I said to my mom this morning, so I'm gonna see a Corgi today, and I left my apartment and there was one. Every time. It's my superpower.

[48:05] Cassidy Hamilton: After our first one, we saw a Corgi on a first date. That's how I knew it was a date. Because at first I thought she wanted to be my homie. And then I was like, oh no, this girl just wanted to be my friend. And that like I couldn't tell.

[48:20] Jasmine Rafael: Then you saw a Corgi, and then you took a picture. You're like, oh, I love Corgis. Look what I sent my family in our group chat. It's called Corgi Family.

[48:28] Cassidy Hamilton: And she shows me her phone, and it's a selfie of hers saying, I'm about to go on a date tonight. Like texting my family. And then I look and I was like, ugh. I was like, oh. And then I like sent the picture of the Corgi that we had just seen to my family. And it totally was, but I'm glad that it like cued you in.

[48:45] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, because I had no idea. Once again, I'm just like, how do I let her know that I like her?

[48:49] Cassidy Hamilton: Um we could always try just saying.

[48:51] Jasmine Rafael: I don't know.

[48:53] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure, sure, sure. Who knows?

[48:54] Jasmine Rafael: Um, but yeah, so I think our goal right now is we were obviously producing this cabaret. We have some other projects coming up.

[49:02] Cassidy Hamilton: Um another cabaret that you're doing.

[49:04] Jasmine Rafael: Another uh project that I'm working on with the Trans Dance Project, which is an exciting organization. Everybody should look it up. Uh, we're working on sort of a collaborative project in the works, don't have the details yet. It'll be in September.

[49:20] Cassidy Hamilton: Um will be another sort of cabaret show.

[49:23] Jasmine Rafael: And then ultimately, I think we'd like to build enough momentum to start producing plays and more developmental works and that are Cass's idea or or ours. Or yeah, and just uh brain children, brain children and and I I think we would also love to get hooked up with other queer writers and producers and um create work together.

[49:50] Alan Seales: All right, one more quick break. Hang on a second.

[49:53] Alan Seales: All right, here's the rest of the episode.

[49:55] Cassidy Hamilton: I love Broadway. I also want to see so much so many different things from the Broadway industry, and I think that we're taking the entertainment industry in general, and I think we're just taking the steps to create that that world we want to see.

[50:13] Jasmine Rafael: So yeah, whether it'd be music. I mean, we were even talking about doing uh a music video. I think anything uh that's sort of yeah, that we can span across. I have a lot of experience in the dance industry in terms of um creating content. Dancers are nutty, they're so talented, and I know the best cinematographers I think I've ever seen, even here. So um, you know, we want to we want to do a lot of different mediums.

[50:41] Cassidy Hamilton: Right. When I got together with my partner, she's like, Um, I want us to become a power lesbian couple like my mentors. I don't know if we're there, but you two are.

[50:49] Jasmine Rafael: I mean, you're running this podcast, so that's right.

[50:51] Cassidy Hamilton: I know. I mean, I do. She's a badass.

[50:53] Jasmine Rafael: We are kind of a we are kind of a I'm sure you are. You seem like it. I need to meet her.

[50:53] Cassidy Hamilton: I still haven't met her.

[50:57] Jasmine Rafael: I know. We'll come to Chicago.

[50:59] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay. I will.

[50:59] Jasmine Rafael: Amazing.

[51:02] Alan Seales: One of our past guests is performing Maria in Chicago on October 22nd. You should come and she offered us tickets.

[51:09] Cassidy Hamilton: Okay. It's after my birthday, right after my birthday.

[51:09] Alan Seales: Libra.

[51:12] Cassidy Hamilton: I'm liberty.

[51:12] Jasmine Rafael: Oh.

[51:15] Cassidy Hamilton: I love what you guys are doing. And I hope that you will tour it. I was like, I'll help you in Chicago. Let me know. I did, I was an event planner for 18 years.

[51:24] Alan Seales: And there needs to be a podcast.

[51:24] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[51:27] Alan Seales: I got a podcast producer I can introduce you to.

[51:31] Cassidy Hamilton: You're bringing the wheels on here.

[51:33] Alan Seales: The wheels are like we're bringing our job.

[51:35] Cassidy Hamilton: So much money.

[51:38] Alan Seales: I know. It's about the stories.

[51:39] Cassidy Hamilton: And they're about money sometimes.

[51:41] Alan Seales: It can also give me both things.

[51:43] Cassidy Hamilton: Stories don't pay rent.

[51:43] Alan Seales: I get that. But do it because you love it.

[51:46] Alan Seales: What is your relationship with failure?

[51:46] Cassidy Hamilton: Ooh.

[51:50] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, both of you.

[51:51] Cassidy Hamilton: I I was uh I think I've talked to you about this. I would do this practice sometimes. Um, after I watched this TED Talks called the practice of rejection or the art of rejection or something. And it's like going towards something that you know you will be rejected in full on. You for sure know this is gonna happen. So it's almost like um, you know, you look at someone for longer than it would be comfortable, like a stranger and being like, Yeah, thanks. Can I hold the door? Bring you, you know, some of the you know it'd be like just look away and be like uh to sort of expose yourself to like it's okay. Like if someone rejects me, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna die. Um, so I think with failure, I have that same sort of uh thing. It's like if I am really, really afraid to fail at something, um, I kind of know now that it's a clue to the run towards it.

[52:43] Jasmine Rafael: And it's not even like a noble thing. Like I literally have seen it produce the most fruit in my life. I used to be scared of looking at people in the eye from stage, because a lot of times people are uncomfortable and would look down. And as a human, when you're looking at someone in the eye and they look down, you ha especially if you have like trauma, which I think we probably all do. Um and if they look away, you feel unwanted, you feel rejected, you feel like you you've made a mistake. I feel so dumb. Um, I've done this practice of looking at people and holding a gaze with them in in in the audience. And for me, that feels pretty brave on a physiological level. You know, and and I and it's like, yeah, many people look away or kind of be like that, uh, you know, twitch away, but a lot of people will hold my gaze, and that is more rewarding than anything. And that has actually improved my character, I think a lot.

[52:43] Cassidy Hamilton: Wow.

[53:32] Jasmine Rafael: Um, and made me like a vulnerable and confident person. And so I feel the same way about failure. It's the same concept of like, you know, I've done like the cold shower challenges and all of these things. It's about expanding the um, what do they call it? Yeah, the time that you can sort of withstand uh uncomforta discomfort. I think that's the secret to your I think that's a secret to your life. And it's not only mental and emotional. It's really, it's really on a physical level. When you feel like you're like, I am so scared to ask this, I'm a throw up. You don't have to jump straight into it, but it's just a clue. And um, we're all looking for direction, and I I think that's not the place where we want to look. But I've I've realized in my life like that is the place to look.

[53:32] Cassidy Hamilton: I think.

[54:18] Jasmine Rafael: Um, but yeah, it's a clue for me.

[54:21] Cassidy Hamilton: I love that.

[54:22] Jasmine Rafael: I love that too. We were just talking about um we were we were at dinner the other night, and you look at me, you said, What's your biggest fear? And uh, and I said, I'm not afraid of failure, I'm afraid of never living up to my fullest potential.

[54:39] Cassidy Hamilton: And I think that difference is important.

[54:45] Jasmine Rafael: I think your relationship with failure and how you view failure is really helpful.

[54:51] Cassidy Hamilton: Um, I think when you try something or when you put yourself out there, um, of course, there's vulnerability and fear. I I try to put them in the backseat. We say that a lot. We're like, I'm I'm putting my anxiety, my anxiety's here. I'm just gonna it's not driving the car.

[54:51] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:10] Cassidy Hamilton: Um it can't even pick the playlist. Like it's just gonna, you're a passenger in the back, please.

[55:15] Jasmine Rafael: Um, but I think you can fail a million that's so stereotypical, but it's true. It's like when you fail at something, um, first of all, try something that let your heart tell you what you should be pursuing. Odds are you're if you're really listening to to where the universe is pushing you, you're probably not gonna fail that hard. And when you do, it's gonna teach you for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And of course that is stereotypical, but I I really think it's true.

[55:45] Cassidy Hamilton: Can either of you identify your biggest quote unquote failure that turned out to be the best thing?

[55:53] Jasmine Rafael: Um, yeah, there's like I think leaving the dance industry obviously feels like a huge failure. Like, especially I had a whole community in and then family that was like, this is what you're meant to do.

[56:05] Jasmine Rafael: And I never like told anyone straight up, but of course it feels like a failure. I had been training for hours in front of a mirror for so long. And I think also failure can be like, uh yeah, it turned out to be obviously I'm here now. And I think also something that seems like a failure is a failed relationship.

[56:19] Cassidy Hamilton: Sure.

[56:24] Jasmine Rafael: You know, you're just like, this is good. There's a point in the relationship when you're really trying to make it work that it just starts to feel like something you're trying to achieve. And when it doesn't, for me, that was my biggest sense of like I failed, and I tried so hard. Um, and now it's you know what I mean. And now I'm just with this beautiful angel.

[56:46] Cassidy Hamilton: Thanks.

[56:46] Jasmine Rafael: Cass, I'm gonna go back to something you said a second ago. Is it your fear of not living up to your fullest potential? But to quote Andre de Shields' Tony speech, the top of one mountain is the bottom of the next. So once you get to your potential, how do you know you're there when you can keep going?

[57:03] Cassidy Hamilton: You're never there.

[57:04] Jasmine Rafael: Exactly. You're exactly exactly. I think um I also I'm connecting this sort of to the other question of um an example of when you failed. Um, I just lost my train of thought.

[57:19] Cassidy Hamilton: Not ADHD.

[57:23] Jasmine Rafael: Um, let me we all have it, it's okay. Oh, the idea when folks say, Oh, you were meant to do this, you were meant to do this. I think we have a lot of choice in what we're meant to do. Yeah, and I think that that also helps you let go of failure, and I think that it also helps you see the peaks and valleys in your life and see where the next, where your hike is gonna take you next.

[58:03] Cassidy Hamilton: Um exactly that. I went to school. I went to like a top five BFA program for theater, and the idea of stopping auditioning broke my heart, broke my mother's heart, still breaks my mother's heart. She's gonna listen to this, love you, mom. She supports the hell out of me. But she will often say, like, I just want to see you on the stage, I just want to see you in the stage. And I'm like, I and I know where that comes from. And it comes from this idea of I've worked so hard for this dream. And I'm like, but the dream changes. And then and um if you think of a failed relationship, a failed initial career choice, a failed what's the what's the point of it all then? You know?

[58:46] Cassidy Hamilton: Um I don't know if that answers the question.

[58:50] Jasmine Rafael: Well, and I think when you were telling me about the potential thing, you said I'm not afraid, I'm not more afraid of failure than I am of ending up complacent.

[59:01] Cassidy Hamilton: Yes.

[59:01] Jasmine Rafael: At some point. So I think that's that was your not reaching potential. It wasn't necessarily I'm totally putting this into words, please. But like it's not necessarily like external circumstances, but you're afraid of stopping uh moment chasing the fire one day. And I think for you, that well, that's what you were telling me defines your, I guess, potential in the world is continuing to chase, actually. Like getting comfortable with the journey. I don't think potential is necessarily a destination for either of us.

[59:32] Cassidy Hamilton: Of course, we're still human. Like, gosh, we're gonna in in one week be like, oh my gosh, that thing last week was not what we thought I am. I feel, you know, I'll feel like a failure again, and I'll feel like my ego is completely wrong. I'll be like, I was completely wrong about things. So of course we're humans, but I think we like to try to remind each other that there's there is no destination that is like a complete illusion, and it's just about feeling like you're on the journey that challenges you for real. And only you know what challenges you for real.

[1:00:02] Jasmine Rafael: That's a great place to end.

[1:00:03] Cassidy Hamilton: I was just thinking the same thing.

[1:00:04] Jasmine Rafael: I'm like, and my dad.

[1:00:06] Cassidy Hamilton: I love it.

[1:00:08] Jasmine Rafael: This was fun.

[1:00:10] Cassidy Hamilton: Y'all are fun.

[1:00:11] Jasmine Rafael: Y'all fun.

[1:00:12] Cassidy Hamilton: I can't wait to know you're in Europe.

[1:00:16] Jasmine Rafael: Bring it to Chicago.

[1:00:17] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, that's an awesome idea.

[1:00:20] Jasmine Rafael: That makes me feel a top bar. So maybe we could get you connected with the About Face Theater. So it's our local Chicago queer theater company.

[1:00:27] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh crazy.

[1:00:29] Jasmine Rafael: We were just talking about Chicago yesterday.

[1:00:32] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh see. My friend Tori Kelly is going to Chicago to do her tour.

[1:00:36] Jasmine Rafael: So we were like, oh.

[1:00:37] Cassidy Hamilton: Do we go to Chicago to see Tori?

[1:00:40] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, let me know. We'll see. We can make something happen.

[1:00:43] Cassidy Hamilton: How can folks find you? Come see the show, follow all the cool things you're doing individually, collectively.

[1:00:51] Jasmine Rafael: Instagram, pretty witty gay cabaret. We're on there. I'm Jasmine J. Raphael.

[1:00:57] Cassidy Hamilton: I'm Cass W. Hamilton.

[1:00:59] Jasmine Rafael: Yeah, that's kind of what we got going on right now. Um, a TikTok could be in the works.

[1:01:06] Cassidy Hamilton: Oh, yeah.

[1:01:06] Jasmine Rafael: Oh, definitely a website. Yeah.

[1:01:08] Cassidy Hamilton: We're in our humble beginnings.

[1:01:10] Jasmine Rafael: But yeah, yeah. Skylar Studios Productions at gmail.com. If you've got some ideas or some money, maybe.

[1:01:18] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:01:19] Jasmine Rafael: That's where we are now. Now, but definitely you'll see it all expand from Instagram.

[1:01:24] Alan Seales: All right. We're gonna keep an eye on it. Thank you both so much for being here, thank you so much. What a fun conversation morning.

[1:01:30] Heather Vickery: Yeah, Jazz and Cass.

[1:01:37] Alan Seales: Cass and Jazz.

[1:01:39] Heather Vickery: These two are I know.

[1:01:42] Alan Seales: Oh my goodness. In a rare twist of fate, um, we are recording this outro not immediately after we interviewed them, because obviously we interviewed them live and then we had to leave our recording space. But what and not even together. We were together for four days and we were so jam-packed and busy that we are now back in our respective homes, offices. But what I was gonna say was that it's been several days since we met with them, and they're still in my mind.

[1:02:13] Heather Vickery: Oh my gosh, me too.

[1:02:14] Alan Seales: Because like just the amount of of like, well, we're just gonna do this because we feel like we we want like I was gonna say want to, but then I was gonna say have to, but then I was gonna go back to want to. Like I had this little argument in my head in the last three milliseconds. Um okay. I think they have to. Together they have come together, and they have to just create. And it's one of those things that I mean the two of them are if if they can continue to channel this like they are. I just I am so excited. Sorry, when they continue to channel this, I will put that out there. That's that they're gonna, they're gonna do such great things.

[1:02:52] Heather Vickery: I absolutely adored meeting them and talking with them.

[1:02:56] Alan Seales: Me too. We did something pretty rare. Now, maybe circumstances don't normally allow it, but when we finished recording, we sat and talked to them for another what 40 minutes, and I kind of think the four of us were pulled apart. We were like, oh, but we really have to go do these other things now. And we just spent hours and hours and hours together. Um they're just like little like lightning bolts of of energy and excitement and joy and possibility, and like it felt electric.

[1:03:26] Heather Vickery: It's it we we caught them at a really interesting time in their self-discovery and personal lives because I think both of them are finally now settled into being their true and authentic selves, and finally in life, like the people that are close to them know all their secrets that they've been keeping for whatever reasons, and things are just like falling into place, and then they found each other. Two people who have who have been going through similar things, and then they found each other, and they're like, Well, let's just amplify the these this message, this feeling that we each have internally, and I think without consciously realizing it, that's probably what ended up drawing them together in the first place.

[1:04:08] Alan Seales: The story was so cute.

[1:04:09] Heather Vickery: I love that. You know, I do a lot of work with clients. We were talking about this separately as well. Is you know, people can't know what we want from them if we don't tell them. But we live in this world where exactly, right? But we live in this world where we think people are just supposed to figure us out. And I was cracking up, Cass is like, well, I just keep trying in so many ways to tell her I'm into her, and I don't know what's not working. We're like, you could be like, I'm into you, you know. You can just say, hey, I think you're pretty cute. You're pretty cute, and I'd like to take you on a date. But we see that everywhere, you know. Like, oh, I'm so frustrated. My spouse never gives me flowers for my birthday. Well, have you ever told your spouse that you really want to do? Have you ever told your spouse you have a birthday? Maybe they don't even know.

[1:05:00] Alan Seales: No, I see.

[1:05:00] Heather Vickery: No, and I think it's I I think it's really cute. And but these folks, these inspiring, talented, beautiful. And you're young, right? Jazz and Cass, you're young, and that's for me, that gives me so much joy because seeing people in their early 20s doing what they're doing. Just I just think the kids are all right, man. Like we're gonna be okay, and it's gonna be a ride. But y'all have got it. Um and just seeing them go for it.

[1:05:36] Cassidy Hamilton: Yeah.

[1:05:36] Alan Seales: Yeah. You were talking about that too, that uh, you know, having s having people in there anywhere in their 20s, early, mid or late or whatnot, right? Like these are the people who have now grown up and become actual adults. Uh with with the internet in their pocket and reap the benefits of that being that you can connect with anybody, you can find your like-minded per people, you can find your group, find your tribe, whatever phrase you want to use, that now instead of feeling lonely. I mean, you can go one of two paths, right? And you gotta be careful with this with the internet as vast as it is. You can either use it to feel more lonely and isolated or more connected, regardless of where you are in the world.

And you know, I think these two specifically are just like, all right, here we are. We're in a we made it to the city that we want to be in, doing the thing that we thought we wanted to do at the time that's turned into this other great thing that I'm now like embracing the opportunity to get us to where we want it to to where we didn't know we wanted to be. And then they found each other in that space and just have been like stair stepping, using each other to to like in a positive way to get to the next step. And it's just it's just so I'm looking at the two of them. This the picture of Green Room 42 on my other screen. So I'm like, oh, they're just smiling at each other and being around.

[1:06:54] Heather Vickery: They are so cute.

[1:06:57] Alan Seales: They're so cute. I can't stand how cute.

[1:07:00] Heather Vickery: Okay. Anyway. Um well, yes. So if you're listening to this in time before uh uh before August 27th, 2023, um, they are gonna have their their cabaret pretty witty and gay at Green Room 42. So go to Green Room 42 for um it's the greenroom42.com for tickets. If you go see the show, let us know. Hit us up in the DMs, tag us in your comments and your stories because hot damn, man. Like Yeah. Let us know. We want to hear, we want to see the clips. Say hi to Jazz and Cass. Tell them that uh Heather and Alan from Was It Chance are super fans. Can't wait to hang out with them again. They promise to take me to um to some lesbian bars in New York. I will I'm not sure that they let the old lesbians in, but they I I I'll go. Um that's um they they need they need to balance it out. Like that's their they get too many youngins and they need the old people in there to I won't know what to do with myself, but I will go because they are fun and I want to hang out.

[1:08:14] Cassidy Hamilton: Can you come?

[1:08:14] Alan Seales: I don't know if they let do they let the the straight best friend if it's if it's one guy being brought by three women, I would I would assume, but don't assume anything.

[1:08:26] Heather Vickery: Because it's gotta be three lesbians and an Alan.

[1:08:27] Alan Seales: Lesbians and an Alan, yeah there's only one Alan.

[1:08:27] Heather Vickery: So speaking of sharing your stories and tagging us how come they connect with us y'all were super easy to find. We are was it chance on Instagram and on Threads and you can find us on the internet at uh was it chance.com and you can email us at was it chance podcast at gmail.com and we really read those things. We really respond. We want to hear what you're up to. Oh, and we're on YouTube.

[1:09:02] Alan Seales: Youtubes.

[1:09:04] Heather Vickery: We're on YouTube. We're trying to get, you know, we're trying to really boost the YouTube. We're doing video now. This one was a little weird because we recorded live and in person, but um, come and hang out with us in all the places and listen, tell your friends, write us a review because it helps other people find us. And uh, we would love to hear your own stories, what you're out doing, how you're embracing intentional risk and uh making it happen. So thank you guys for hanging out with us as always. We love it. We have a good time, and we're glad to have you with us. Y'all, you've been listening to Was It Chance, the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I'm Heather Vickery and I'm Alan Seales. Talk to you soon. Bye.