This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I believe in myself more as an actor than I do as a singer. Despite the fact that if I were to remove my own feelings around it technically, I know I can do all of it. Like the technical part I believe in, the feeling part around my identity with it and full vulnerability. Um, I'm a little bit more afraid of owning some for some reason. I don't know why.

[0:29] Alan Seales: I'm waiting on you, man.

[0:31] Jennifer Apple: I know.

[0:32] Alan Seales: I know you're waiting on me. And I know everyone thinks that there's something wrong with me that I laugh for this intro in every single episode, but you are super.

[0:44] Jennifer Apple: No one has ever to your face told me that they think there's something wrong with you.

[0:47] Alan Seales: Exactly. Hey folks, welcome to Was It Chance.

[0:54] Heather Vickery: The podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I'm Heather Vickery.

[1:00] Alan Seales: And I'm Alan Seales, the weirdo that makes her laugh. Heather and I started off as two perfect strangers who met by chance and embraced opportunity. So now you, the listener, get to listen in. That's why you're the listener. As we chat with other successful people about the risks they've taken to put themselves on a path to creative success.

[1:18] Jennifer Apple: What? You want me to stop?

[1:20] Alan Seales: No.

[1:20] Heather Vickery: I love you. You're my BFF.

[1:23] Alan Seales: Biff.

[1:23] Heather Vickery: Biff, thank you. You are my biff as well. How have you been? I haven't talked to you in like a week.

[1:27] Alan Seales: I know. I've been good. I mean, I've been good. I woke up on December 1st and thought, well, November had my ass. So now I have to get to work. I have things to do. This December came up on me like it shouldn't have. Um, and I think the older I get, the more I start to look just have the end of the year to smoosh together in a smoosh of smooshness, if that makes sense. Like I just now want to get to January so I can breathe again.

[1:57] Heather Vickery: I know that feeling.

[1:58] Alan Seales: Yeah. I'm like, let's hit February. Actually, why do I want? I don't want to rush time. I have little kids and I want to enjoy it. Anyway.

[2:06] Heather Vickery: February. Do you say the R in February?

[2:07] Alan Seales: The first R.

[2:08] Heather Vickery: February.

[2:09] Alan Seales: Not the second R.

[2:09] Heather Vickery: Wait, are there two R's in February?

[2:11] Alan Seales: I gotta look at February.

[2:13] Heather Vickery: Yeah, there's two. There's two R's in February.

[2:15] Alan Seales: February.

[2:16] Heather Vickery: It's Ru-ary.

[2:18] Alan Seales: It's not pronounced that way.

[2:19] Heather Vickery: We have a guest.

[2:20] Alan Seales: You could have said February.

[2:22] Heather Vickery: I could have. Who's our guest? Let's talk about a guest. And then I'm gonna ask her how she pronounces February.

[2:29] Alan Seales: Jennifer Apple, welcome to the podcast. Uh, Jennifer is a multi-hyphenated artist, award-winning performer, and founder of the Empowered Artist Collective from commanding the stage in The Band's Visit to coaching the next generation of artists. Jennifer's mission is to inspire authenticity and bold self-expression by saying the word February.

[2:51] Heather Vickery: How do you say February, Jennifer?

[2:52] Jennifer Apple: I, you know, I do say February with no R. Feb-you-ary.

[2:56] Alan Seales: I know. It's incorrect, I think.

[2:59] Jennifer Apple: I just say warh?

[3:01] Alan Seales: Do you say war shall?

[3:03] Jennifer Apple: Like I'm gonna be.

[3:03] Alan Seales: Dad does.

[3:04] Jennifer Apple: No.

[3:05] Alan Seales: I don't do, but I do say vanilla, not vanilla.

[3:07] Jennifer Apple: And that one's a weird one.

[3:09] Alan Seales: I can't.

[3:09] Jennifer Apple: I say vanilla.

[3:10] Alan Seales: Really?

[3:11] Jennifer Apple: I say vanilla, not vanilla.

[3:12] Alan Seales: Yeah. That one I know is incorrect because there is no E in there.

[3:16] Heather Vickery: What about Friday?

[3:18] Alan Seales: Friday.

[3:27] Jennifer Apple: No.

[3:27] Alan Seales: Well, if you're watching on Spotify, you can see your face.

[3:30] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, it's true.

[3:31] Alan Seales: Okay. Yeah. What about the word room?

[3:34] Jennifer Apple: So my partner's from Room?

[3:37] Alan Seales: Not room.

[3:38] Jennifer Apple: Not room.

[3:39] Alan Seales: Rum.

[3:39] Jennifer Apple: Rum. That's also like museum or museum. My partner is from New York.

[3:45] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:45] Jennifer Apple: Like born and raised in New York. And she says, oh, go to the room.

[3:49] Alan Seales: Room.

[3:49] Jennifer Apple: What the fuck? The room. Is that also weird shit on this show? Does she also do eggs?

[3:53] Alan Seales: That's another weird one.

[3:55] Jennifer Apple: Eggs?

[3:56] Alan Seales: Instead of eggs.

[3:57] Jennifer Apple: No, but she says water.

[3:59] Alan Seales: Yeah, water. Uh, I have been called Ellen many times.

[4:03] Jennifer Apple: Yellow.

[4:05] Alan Seales: Wow. It's funny that this comes up. So we saw Cyndi Lauper last night.

[4:09] Heather Vickery: Okay.

[4:09] Alan Seales: It's pronounced Cinda Luper.

[4:12] Jennifer Apple: She's totally, she's Brooklyn born, well, Queens.

[4:16] Alan Seales: Ozone Park, which my best friend growing up is from Ozone Park.

[4:19] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[4:19] Alan Seales: Um, and it was her accent is just amazing. And I love that after all of these years, she has never lost it.

[4:25] Jennifer Apple: Can we just talk about, and Jennifer, I promise we are gonna talk about it.

[4:28] Jennifer Apple: No, I'm here. I don't want to see the, there's no agenda on my end. I'm just enjoying it.

[4:32] Alan Seales: It was her farewell tour. She hasn't done a stadium tour since 1988.

[4:39] Jennifer Apple: Wow.

[4:40] Alan Seales: She is 71 years old. Lauper is now doing her farewell tour. This is it. She's 71. My mom is 71. She can barely walk from the kitchen to the bedroom.

[4:50] Jennifer Apple: Cyndi Lauper is dancing across the stage. She's rolling around on the floor. She's fucking gorgeous. She sings like a trained opera singer, which she is, and is fighting for fundamental rights. It was incredible. I was like, I felt like I was in a secret room. It was the coolest experience.

[5:08] Heather Vickery: A secret room with how many other people though?

[5:10] Alan Seales: Yeah, there were a lot of other people, but she took, she story told the entire time. So she didn't, she did play all of her most famous hits. She ended with "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" and did a whole stop in the middle where she changed it to "Girls Just Want to Have Fundamental Rights."

[5:24] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[5:24] Alan Seales: Which was incredible.

[5:26] Jennifer Apple: Incredible.

[5:27] Alan Seales: But she did a lot of songs that most of us didn't know because she was telling her life story. And in the beginning, she said, this is such a gift for me. It's not just a gift for you, it's a gift for me. Because if I'm gonna go out, and I am, I'm gonna go out big, and I haven't done this in decades.

[5:43] Jennifer Apple: Wow.

[5:44] Alan Seales: It was cool. And so I guess, you know, we'll lead that right into you, Jennifer. Like performing, teaching people to perform, coaching people to perform. There's so, it's such a personal experience.

[6:00] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[6:00] Alan Seales: How did you get into this?

[6:02] Jennifer Apple: The performing part of it all. Yeah. It's not anything, you know, it's not like I was like spotted in a, you know, playground and it's like you. It was pretty organic. Um, I was that like little kid who was singing when she started speaking kind of vibes and was dancing around the house and making up shows and forcing my brother to be in weird shows that I wish I had scripted somewhere. Um, and then eventually I was that kid in school who had like, you know, the national anthem solo, and then it was community theater, and then it was theater camp, and then I was that kid in high school, and then that became, it was like, oh, in theater camp, parents of some of these kids were, you know, famous people, and I realized, oh, this is a career you can do, and then it was like, I guess this is a snowball effect, and so here we are. So it really wasn't anything that banged me over the head. I think I did want to be an infectious disease doctor, but I...

[6:51] Alan Seales: Which is, that's different.

[6:57] Jennifer Apple: I know, yeah, but I know, was it chance? I, you know what? Until I realized I don't do needles or blood, um, and science, yeah, infections or infections or science generally. I believe in it deeply, but I don't know how to do it, and so that was a very clear choice of maybe this isn't your life calling. Maybe you should consider other things.

[7:22] Alan Seales: So wow.

[7:23] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[7:24] Alan Seales: Okay. So you, so when you're little, you're getting into the performing, that's one thing. And obviously being, uh, you were in the original cast of The Band's Visit, right?

[7:35] Jennifer Apple: So you got, you got, which I loved by the way.

[7:37] Alan Seales: The tour. Were you in Chicago? Did I see you?

[7:39] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, you would have. We loved it.

[7:42] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah. That was, we had a fun time. We were in Chicago in a good season because it was like fall. Um, it was a good amount of brisk, people were still not like in winter tundra mode. Everybody was pretty smiley coming off of summer. The food was really solid.

[7:59] Jennifer Apple: Best place in the country to get a meal.

[8:01] Alan Seales: It was really good.

[8:02] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I liked gymnastics a lot.

[8:03] Alan Seales: Yeah, I don't think so.

[8:04] Jennifer Apple: No, it's true.

[8:05] Alan Seales: Nope, not true. I probably disagree also, but I did enjoy it while I was there.

[8:09] Jennifer Apple: Okay.

[8:09] Alan Seales: Did that's okay. Two against one, we win.

[8:12] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[8:12] Alan Seales: Well, you were amazing. The show was amazing. So what led to you've been singing since you've been talking. So you just kept saying yes to opportunities, right?

[8:20] Jennifer Apple: Like mostly. They presented themselves, you said yes. Did any of it ever feel risky, or did it just feel like, well, this is the thing I'm doing?

[8:29] Jennifer Apple: Risky in that I worried about security and stability a thousand percent, still have that in my body. But in terms of the knowing of like, oh no, no, this is something that you are gifted with, that I did know. I think definitely grappled with the imposter syndrome of it all when I would be surrounded by other incredible human beings who are also really talented and gifted. And then also understanding this is an industry and a business. Um, I think once I fully understood that that was part of the thing, and it wasn't just, oh, I get to sing because I love it. Um, then that kind of threw a different dynamic into understanding how I showed up for it. So that was a very different shifting. And then maybe in that respect, it felt, I don't know if I would say risky, but it just felt a little bit more unsettling because that isn't ultimately why I chose to do this. It's because I love the thing, not because I wanted to sell the thing. But ultimately that is in essence what we do.

[9:39] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[9:40] Jennifer Apple: And I think you have to love it, right, Alan? Like, you can't do this if you don't love it.

[9:42] Alan Seales: Oh god, no, because you're not in it to make money.

[9:46] Jennifer Apple: Well, if you are, you're in it for the wrong reason.

[9:48] Alan Seales: Correct. Because you're just not gonna for the most part.

[9:52] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[9:53] Alan Seales: So you gotta do it. You gotta do it because you like it. And if you're successful and end up making money at it, that's a happy byproduct.

[9:59] Jennifer Apple: A thousand percent.

[10:00] Alan Seales: Yeah. So then when do you start rolling in all of the coaching and then you've got this empowered artist collective podcast on top of everything else?

[10:13] Jennifer Apple: I mean, so when are you like going from single hyphen it to multi-multi-hyphen?

[10:18] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I'd say that the, I was always interested in a lot of different things. Maybe that's my ADD part of myself, maybe that's my...

[10:22] Alan Seales: Maybe you're a manifesting generator.

[10:27] Jennifer Apple: Thank you so much. Drink.

[10:28] Alan Seales: Thank you.

[10:29] Jennifer Apple: Always gonna come back to you when this is.

[10:32] Alan Seales: Every episode, every episode, maybe you're a man gen. I'm gonna make that a drinking game.

[10:36] Jennifer Apple: Okay. I love it. I mean, I think in some ways I am. My executive functioning though is like, why do you love so many things? You need to streamline your life a little. Um, very much just like woo. But uh, yeah, I mean, I was always doing a lot. Like in college, I was kind of an unspoken headshot photographer. Like I was always the kid with the camera, and then I was taking people's photos, and people were like, these are really good. And then I was like, can you take them with me? And then it was like, oh, all of a sudden now I have a headshot business. You know, so that did kind of happen. And then I hated editing because of the minutiae and I didn't want to do that. Um, I've always been writing.

I have a creative writing degree from undergrad as well. Um, and so that has always been in the ether, but I didn't love the actual like sitting down and doing the writing part of the writing, even though I had a lot of ideas. Now I'm begrudgingly coming back to that and realizing if I'm not writing for myself, then who is and now doing that a lot more. But I guess the coaching part of it all came, um, I was teaching as one of my like thrival jobs is what I call them. I don't do the survival because why are we putting that into our vocabulary around artistry? It makes me sad and I wanted to reclaim that. So my thrival jobs prior to grad school, um, was a lot of teaching of young folks like in theater, you know, in their after school programs and such.

And during my MFA, a component of the program was what they called citizen artistry, where we were teaching in the community and doing, um, you know, shows and one-on-ones and just like really integrating that into our programming. And so I started teaching a bit throughout my MFA, and then once I graduated, really started doing more one-on-one clients, and I fell into this thing that I have been doing now for many, many years called monologue sourcing, where I find monologues specifically for people. For whatever reason in my life, I hoarded monologues for my whole life. And then...

[12:26] Jennifer Apple: Can you remember them though? Do you know, like, oh, this person would be great for this monologue for this reason? So that's kind of how my brain works. I don't know what that is. But I would work with these one-on-one clients, a lot of whom were auditioning for BFA and MFA auditions, and they were, you know, going through the process, and they're like, I don't love this monologue.

[12:43] Jennifer Apple: And I'd be like, have you thought about this one though? And then I would give them this piece, and they're like, This fits me like a glove. And then it was like, wait, I have all these pieces. Why am I not doing this as a service? And then it became a thing. But yeah, now I do this for humans in addition to just like the coaching part of it. And then when I was on tour, um, going through all these incredible cities, I guess I was preemptive about it and reached out to all these different programs and universities as I was traveling around the country being like, please let me teach a masterclass for your students. And so I started doing more of that. And then when the shutdown happened, it really like kicked into high gear, all the virtual teaching and coaching in both universities, theater programs, and one-on-ones.

And then me and a co-founder started Empowered Artist Collective as an incubator for women and non-binary artists in fall of 2020. We ran that for a year and a half and ran five cohorts that were like two and a half, three months each. And it really came out of me coaching mostly young folks who really, you know, they were trying to hone in on their artistic skills, but nobody, myself included, had any like life or business skills about like how do you navigate your mental health while there's a pandemic? Like, how do you do your budgeting while you're not actually able to make an income while you're, you know, doing your artistry? How do you balance your many hats? How do you navigate this imposter syndrome you're feeling?

You know, what about your artist, your activism with your artistry? What about all these things that nobody's really talking about? And so we ran these incubator programs that had panels and workshops and accountability and art shares. And then when my co-founder stepped away to have a family, um, it was like the pandemic was now an endemic or whatever we were saying it was, and people didn't want to sit in front of, you know, Zoom for as many hours, and it was like, let's have these conversations, but not behind closed doors. Let's turn it into a podcast. And so we're currently in season three of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast, where we're having these conversations that we were having behind closed doors.

And it's frankly the resource that I wish I had. So yeah, I think you know, there's like a mix of the coaching part of it that I do one-on-one with clients. There's the master class workshops that I do with universities and theaters, and then there's um the podcast part of it that yes, it's a podcast and it's its own entity. Um, but in many ways it's really just sure, there's like a coaching element of like me bringing in the resources and sharing the information, but also a way for me to continue learning and also share incredible human beings who are doing other things in the industry that people need to know about, like how do you write a grant and like how do you do your taxes? Like, you know, let's talk about it.

[15:08] Heather Vickery: Very much.

[15:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, very, very much. I can really identify with that experience because so I'm a I'm a coach, I'm a transformational success coach and NLP and human design and all of that. 2020 and 2021 were by far the best years in business I ever had in 25 years. And I think it's because, well, I know it's because people all of a sudden had time and they didn't have time before, and we still had money. Yeah. Because they hadn't we hadn't spent all of our money and had, you know, shut down for so long and all of that just yet. And since then, the pushback on being virtual is intense.

[15:46] Jennifer Apple: It's huge. So it's a you have to reinvent everything.

[15:50] Heather Vickery: I know.

[15:50] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. The what you did where you're like, I'm gonna go out to colleges and just say, like, can I teach there? Where did I love this? Where did the guts for this come from? Because that's not something that people would even think about trying to do, let alone succeeding at it.

[16:06] Jennifer Apple: Um, I mean, I let's be clear about the stats on these things. You know, for every however many emails you send out, uh you will mostly not get any response, and then you may get a couple, and then the actual like solidifying a date and the time and the logistics around the things, that becomes an even, you know. So I do want to not make it sound like all like everything that I tried worked. Like, let's be very clear. Um, it didn't. Uh, and there was a lot of disappointment and frustration because it was like, this is so easy. I'm dangling this in front of you. What?

[16:38] Heather Vickery: We're gonna take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[16:42] Jennifer Apple: And now we're back. I think in some ways I am a bit audacious. I do think in some ways I don't um I don't it's not I respect rules. I do. I do think if we didn't have them, there would be chaos. And they're really dumb because you have to take the rules.

[16:59] Heather Vickery: Yeah, exactly.

[16:59] Jennifer Apple: Because you have to look at who created them, right? And who is it serving? Like, I think that for me is the question. So if I see a rule and I'm like, why is this rule here? Who created this rule and for what reason? Then I'm able to kind of be like, do I agree with this? And do I subscribe to whoever decided to implement this rule? Like to not kill somebody, I believe that is a very good rule. I think that that is good. Like that is one I am going to listen to. Um you know, so but like in terms of somebody saying, Don't email us, I don't know if I believe that. Like, why why? Why did you say that? Because you don't want to respond to an email, then you won't when I send it to you, or because you you're I don't know.

So for me, that feels nebulous. And maybe I kind of, and this is not answering your question, I will get there, I swear. But like, you know, maybe this is helpful for like young folks. When I first started out and I was non-union and as an actor, um, I would literally go onto this is a really good hack and you can still do this. Um, I would go on to like MTI and Samuel French, and I would see I would look at these shows that I really wanted to do to have on my resume. And I would see who had the rights for these shows and what theaters were doing these shows in the future, because that will show up because they bought the rights. And I would reach out to these theaters preemptively saying the hello, here is material for me doing this role in this show.

Please consider me. And I booked two or three shows doing that. Um so I've always been a little bit like, how can I shirk the system? Not because no one else shouldn't either. Like people, everyone should. Um, I don't like that word. But everyone, I encourage everyone to find their way. And so I guess for me, it was like this isn't I I know what I'm offering. And I know that if I were a student in college and I were to think back onto people who could have come through and talked to me, that my university could have given me an opportunity to meet, to network with, to talk to, and then I didn't have that, I would be pissed. And I also would want that, you know. So for me, it was like if I'm offering this to you and your students, you of course can tell me no, but why wouldn't I let you know that this is something that I do and something that I would love to do with your students?

And then you have the option, you know. I think that there's something about that aspect of it that's like I, you know, a no is a yes in many ways, where it's like when I hear somebody actually respond to me, no, thank you, I get to move on and close that door. And until somebody actually says that, I I don't know why I wouldn't.

[19:31] Heather Vickery: So uh maybe that's why.

[19:34] Jennifer Apple: I love that. But not everybody just has the confidence in themselves to to do that. Maybe I as a coach, I hear so many people who are I think they're afraid to take up space, is what I see.

[19:46] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[19:46] Jennifer Apple: And it sounds like you're not, which I am though. I am a thousand percent. That's been like if if you talk to my therapist, that's like probably what I work on the most is like taking up space.

[19:57] Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm.

[19:58] Jennifer Apple: Being comfortable with it. Yeah, because I think I was I was always the kid who took up space because I had a lot of feelings and opinions, and I'm outspoken. I'm a New Yorker and here I am, and I you know, I believe things very deeply and I'm passionate about it. And so the way in which I communicate, I think for a lot of people is overwhelming because they don't have the same intensity, maybe. And so I was taught at a young age to like truly all my report cards was like Jennifer is brilliant, she needs to shut up. Like, you know, like she has a lot of opinions. Please tell her to stop raising your hand so much. Like it was, you know, so there was a narrative. They would never, they would never, truly never.

And so that was a narrative, still is something that I think about in the back of my brain, like truly like the you know, step up, step back vibe of things. Like, I really I think about that ever all the time. Um, and uh so it's a muscle that I consistently battle navigate about, like, okay, how much is me taking up space? I think the reframe that I'm trying really hard to remember is just because I take up space doesn't mean someone else cannot also. Like that is the thing. And I think there was a moment for a long period of time that was like, oh, if I'm taking up space, that means that no one else can. And it's like, no, no, no. There is enough space to go around. Arguably, if you show up fully as yourself and I show up fully as myself, then we're actually all showing up and then we're all able to do art and collaborate the way that we deserve to.

Um, and so the idea that somehow me taking space comparatively takes away, I don't believe that anymore. And so that's maybe the shift. But it does, it does take a lot for me, given my own ex like lived experience to remember that I I deserve to, as does every single human being on this planet. Like so it's it's the conditions, like the reminder that um I think maybe allows me to, but it doesn't come easy at all, actually.

[21:54] Heather Vickery: But even still, like through the success you've had, and I mean, you seem like you're very comfortable just talking about yourself and how you feel and what's going on, and then even like to this day, you're still you still struggle with that?

[22:03] Jennifer Apple: A thousand percent a lot. I'm just really grateful that you shared that whole perspective because I know there are people listening, yeah, who are in the same boat, like it's and it's weird. And I'm often in the same boat, yeah. Because we've done so much work and we can reframe, and yet we still come up against those same walls and you have to do the work again.

[22:24] Heather Vickery: Yeah, yeah, start back over.

[22:28] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. So I think it's also like a system thing, not to be like that person that's like the systems, but really it is a system thing. Like you named it too. It's like as a woman, I don't think anybody would have ever said that to a young boy who was like, you know, outspoken, like they wouldn't have. Um so again, it goes back to the rules of it all. Like, who decided that I was too big? Who decided and and then I'm in, you know, me being an not actual therapist, but having been therapized for a really long time. Then I think, well, what about this person's insecurity are they confronting in me, right? Like, okay, if you're seeing this, exactly. And if I'm this loud, boisterous kid with a lot of feelings and and opinions and I'm smart, what about you are you seeing in yourself that maybe you didn't get to express when you were younger, or that maybe currently in your life you are feeling X, Y, and Z about?

And I'm never here to judge it, but just being able to like remind ourselves that everyone's experiencing another human being from like where they are at, and sometimes consciously or subconsciously like reflecting themselves back, um, is is I think a helpful reminder to be a little bit more graceful when encountering people who are trying to um take away, keep you small. Um absolutely that's the definition of bullies.

[23:41] Heather Vickery: Bully behavior.

[23:42] Jennifer Apple: But even but bullies are quiet sometimes. Bully, you're like, no, that wasn't bullying, and then you gaslight yourself into thinking, like, no, that was actually me. I was to this. It's like no, actually, this person. What about let's pause, let's pause, let's breathe, and let's pause and see what's up. They're interesting. Put the wash in the dryer. Did I say it? Did I truly go to it? No, I might have. Sometimes when I get passionate, it's like, oh, right, I am from here. But in in NLP work, neurolinguistic programming, which I am a practitioner for, we talk about that, it's presuppositions, right? Like what somebody else's experience is. And so instead of taking everything personal, stepping back and going, oh, what is the lens that they're showing up in this space for? I mean, anytime I'm doing anything, like awareness is is the key to change.

[24:30] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[24:31] Jennifer Apple: And it doesn't happen if you don't up and reflect. And that actually, one of the things that when I was researching you and preparing for this, that I really um loved is that you have you've workshopped a bunch of new things, new plays and new musicals. And I'm just really curious what that process is like for you.

[24:55] Jennifer Apple: Um, giving a story its first steps and shaping it and and like how you show up to do that as an artist when we're talking about awareness.

[25:04] Jennifer Apple: Oh, it's my favorite, uh especially now, it's some of my favorite work. I crave being in those rooms so desperately. Um, you know, going back to what we were talking about at the beginning, like I didn't become an artist because of the business part, it happened because that's what this is, but I I came into it for the collaboration, for the expression, for the like art of it all.

[25:25] Jennifer Apple: And I really do find and feel that in a development space and a workshop space and a new workspace, people are showing up with a level of humility, with a level of curiosity, a level of dialogue. Um, and it more often than not, people are really receptive and um messy. There is a level of mess that I really appreciate in a development space because um no one knows what it is yet, and there's a level of play that people can just show up and try things without judgment, and it really comes back to I think why so many people fall in love with being performers young or like when they first start out, it's like, oh, right, the exploration of it all. Oh, I get to try this thing, and there's a real childhood joy in it.

Um, those spaces remind me of the love that I have for this as a craft and not a business. Um, and so I really I crave those rooms. Um, you learn so much about yourself, you learn so much about the way in which people create. You learn how people's brains think differently than yours. And people can see one thing from 800 different perspectives and the implication of that. And, you know, I think a superpower that I have is that I'm really good at living in the gray area. I am not a black and white gal. I actually don't believe in that in any way, shape, or form. I think everything has nuance, and those rooms allow me to thrive in that gray area and just ask a lot of questions and sit with discomfort and not have answers to things and just like really be in that gritty mess.

[27:09] Alan Seales: What is your I guess specialty focus? I was gonna say niche of coaching because I feel like you're gonna be coaching people through a lens that is not just what is your character's backstory and where are they going and where do they come from?

[27:25] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, no, not at all. I think I appreciate you asking that too. Um, and it's hard because you know, I don't think I have like a method necessarily. I've learned from some incredible professors and teachers for myself, and I think I've probably pulled different teachings from them and created this thing. Um, I and I I guess the answer is I don't, it's not one size fits all. Um, I think what makes me a really wonderful educator, coach, teacher um, is that I really meet the human being in front of me and what their needs are. And so, you know, I think it goes back to just like basic teaching one on one-on-one of like some people are, you know, visual learners, some people are tactile, like tactile learners, some people are physical.

Like there are people we all learn very differently, and just keeping that in mind that not everybody their access point is to start is completely different. Some people are more self-aware. Some people are, you know, a lot more guarded. Some people just really like there's a reading of a room and there's a sharing of like what do you need in this moment that I want to give an agency towards with whoever I'm working with so that I'm not dictating the session in some way. You are. And so yeah, there's a level of play. There's certainly a level of um understanding your texts. I am I'm I'm a big proponent of punctuation. That is a thing that I um really can I think is it can unlock a piece or material for people in a way that they sometimes overlook.

It also like it doesn't give as much credit to the person who created the thing and somehow I think artists feel like they know more than the playwright who wrote the thing and it's like let's let's dial this back for a second. Like you are the vessel through which these gorgeous words hopefully you know come through let's honor that. So I'm a punctuation person. I'm a meet you where you at or you are at kind of person. And I am also somebody who like really wants you to get in touch with like how that feels not is that good or bad. I actually don't I don't say like allow but like when a client says like that was good I'll be like that's subjective. Remember art is subjective the good or bad I could think this thing is great and you can think it's terrible and actually it doesn't even matter either way.

So let's how did that feel? And then we okay that felt really scattered. That felt really grounded that felt really connected that felt cool. Now we have somewhere to play from. If it felt scattered, how can we make it more focused? If it felt really grounded, how can we make it feel a little bit more connected? If we you know, like there's a a feeling thing that goes with it. But more specifically just yeah meeting meeting somebody where they are we can only start from where we are truly like where is your breath and are you breathing? Like and I think so many people don't know where they are.

[30:13] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[30:14] Jennifer Apple: So they need you. They need you know that's the kind of coaching you do, the kind of coaching I do. It helps people figure out where are you right now? Where are you starting? Where do you want to be? Yeah. And I'm all about the feeling is is the thing.

[30:25] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[30:26] Jennifer Apple: I don't do what you do, but I'm always asking always every day, all day, how does it feel when you say that? How does it feel when you think that? How does it feel when you change your mind about this thing? So it's so powerful. Even the but even just like being asked that sometimes we don't take even if the session is just about you having agency for half hour, an hour, whatever that time is to like be self-reflective, you know, that in of itself can be so powerful. Forget your material that we're prepping. Forget the monologue or the song that we're working on the scene or whatever it is. Forget that for a second. Like even just the questions that you just asked like even being asked that and being able to take a second to think through that there is a real power in claiming one's agency going back to taking up space like that a really invigorating coaching moment or a session really is like oh I showed up fully like not like oh now this monologue is memorized.

[31:24] Alan Seales: Yes.

[31:25] Jennifer Apple: That's right. Yeah. Because the rest will get done.

[31:27] Alan Seales: A thousand percent it will get done. Not even a question it'll people worry okay how do I memorize this? Let me tell you, when you literally are embodying this thing, or when you're you know what this is about, actually, you're not gonna have to sit on your toilet and memorize the words. Like you're gonna know you're gonna it it'll happen very quickly.

[31:43] Alan Seales: So when did the when did singing come into all of this as well? Because you said like you've got this encyclopedia of monologue.

[31:51] Jennifer Apple: I know you're a manifesting generator. I need to better understand what that is.

[31:53] Alan Seales: Also, oh, so it's human design. We can talk about it offline if you want to please.

[31:59] Jennifer Apple: Very cool self-discovery system. Um, but I think when I think my mentor told me about that, but I haven't done the like the test thing to see what it is.

[32:07] Alan Seales: Yes, yeah.

[32:07] Jennifer Apple: I'd love to I would love to do a reading for you. I would love to. But what I was gonna say is about that, it's not just about being multi-passionate, but it's also about not finishing everything you start or knowing when to pass it off. So when you said, like, I love this part, but I don't like that part. Well, okay, I got what I needed now. I'm giving that to somebody else. Anyway, side note, answer Alan's question.

[32:24] Alan Seales: Yeah, the singing part of it all, you know, my identity for a while, and it's funny when people ask essentially like my origin story of like how did this all start? It really initially started with the singing, like and and I really told my life art story through my singing lens. And I think there has been a diff, there's been a shift for myself as I've really tried to um it sounds so silly to say it out loud because then it seems like other people made this happen for me versus my own agency, but um I think I was being pigeonholed into and I was getting feedback and roles for based off of my voice, and I loved that. I'm grateful for it. And I really wanted people to know me as an actor first.

I really did. Um, and I think there was a matter of like really like claiming the actor label so that people took me seriously with that first. And so I yeah, I think it's even like on my website, I think I say actor as opposed to performer. And I've taught I thought about it, and it's like, do I relabel that? You know, um, to be more inclusive because singer. Yeah, because and I don't say singer, you know, the singer doesn't appear as a label. Um it's something that I struggle, I guess we'll be vulnerable here. I struggle with owning that one, that one um holds a little bit more of imposter syndrome, despite the fact that I literally took my first voice lesson at seven. I started singing when I was like three.

I, you know, have my performative years of my career were all in musical theater. Um, I just you know won an award in a musical. Like, you know, I'm but there's something about me that still I think has a bit of imposter syndrome when I hear incredible singers saying versus incredible actors act.

[34:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I believe in myself more as an actor than I do as a singer, despite the fact that if I were to remove remove my own feelings around it, technically, I know I can do all of it. Like the technical part I believe in, the feeling part around my identity with it and full vulnerability. Um, I'm a little bit more afraid of owning some for some reason. I don't know why.

[34:28] Alan Seales: I mean, I do know why, but it's yeah, I was like, I want to put my coach hat on really bad right now because you can't think is that you do know why, of course.

[34:34] Jennifer Apple: Of course I don't know.

[34:35] Alan Seales: Yeah, hold on. The audience wants to know why Alan's I'm here for that. I'm here for this coach, go for it.

[34:39] Jennifer Apple: I don't mind being vulnerable, it's okay. You can and I'll tell you if I don't, you know.

[34:46] Alan Seales: We're gonna take a quick break.

[34:48] Jennifer Apple: Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[34:50] Alan Seales: And now we're back. Well, I'm not coaching you, and I'm not engaged in a coaching relationship with you, but I I would imagine that that boils down to you care so much about it, you feel so passionate about it that if you all the way in, if you had that confidence and it didn't do the thing you wanted it to do, it would be devastating.

[35:11] Jennifer Apple: Maybe. Because I think about, you know, if I think about my heart, I feel that way maybe more about acting. Um I think there for s maybe it has to do with like some vocal trauma that I've experienced. So that probably um is a thing. I don't know. I I really do believe that there are vocalists who are better than me. And I don't believe in comparison. I really do but is that okay? Like can you still be good and they can be better? Again, that's what I'm saying where it doesn't differ though.

[35:41] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[35:42] Jennifer Apple: Correct. And also going back to what I was saying earlier. It's like them being good takes away nothing from me. I know that like in a conceptual way. That but this one hasn't been as integrated into my body in a in a visceral way. Not to say I'm not if somebody asks me to sing, I will, I would love to sing. If a musical calls me in, I will I am going in dependent on the role, but like or the theater or the show. But um a thousand percent I'm I'm I want to do it and um there will always be a little bit of a can I curse here like I call yeah great that's gonna be a great lead in to the the next question I'm gonna ask you amazing.

[36:20] Jennifer Apple: I call it my little fucker knows like my little fucker that sits on my corner like my little you know everybody has like a little I just call my little fucker but my little fucker will pop up for a singing Alan comes up something different conjures in his mind. He thinks great we love that we love that for you my little fucker is not on my shoulder but exactly exactly we are different every time we do something again.

[36:48] Alan Seales: And I wonder how how has that shown up for you? You've had a career since you've been singing since you were talking, right? So if you were to think about like how you approach things differently because you're a different person.

[37:02] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Uh I'd love to just sort of pull that thread with you.

[37:05] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[37:06] Jennifer Apple: Um I think there's a level of forgiveness, I think I'm trying, or like maybe grace that I'm trying to offer myself as I continue in this career for as long as I've been doing it, around the fact that I could look back on so many different roles that I've done and been like, oh my God, you should have done this so differently. Like, oh my God, what were you thinking? Or like this is how you did it. You know, but that's like a life lesson for everything. You know, you can always look back and wish that you had the tools and skills that you have now, but that's wisdom, you know. And um I think that there's something around um humility within oneself of recognizing that you were enough at that moment and that is what your quote unquote best version was then.

And now it's just a matter of like again, tuning into myself, really feeling into um what feels um vulnerable and grounded and truthful within me now and then showing up from that space without the comparison as much as I possibly can.

[38:12] Jennifer Apple: Um I think, you know, the older I get, the scarier the world is, um and the less I know, even though I know more. And with that, yeah, um, there is a wisdom in recognizing that there there's always so much more to unpack that I will never know and before I die. But like the attempt to continue growing and unlearning and um expanding myself into the vastness that is possible is is a kind of wisdom that I I only can know now that I wouldn't have known then had I not gone through all the things that I experienced. So you know I think the gratitude to like an earlier version of like you did that and now I can do this now in this way.

[38:54] Alan Seales: You've got a uh a jack, a port in the back of your head, matrix style. You can plug in and learn anything near instantaneously. What's the first thing you're gonna go out and learn besides how to fly an Apache helicopter and save the world?

[39:10] Jennifer Apple: That's a really cool question. Oh my god, I know I want to know so much. Um or I know kung fu. I really that's a great question. Idiot. My plug, I really I could answer this in some again. Like this is like Greyland Jen is like, oh my god, the possibilities are endless. Um, okay, so what can I learn? Oh god, my brain has so many choice in it currently. First thing came to mind.

[39:36] Alan Seales: You're overthinking it.

[39:37] Jennifer Apple: I am overthinking hello, hi. Yes. Agreed. I see, yep, you are correct. Thank you. Um, you know what? I think I think it would be I want to know because the thing is I this is again ADD brain that wants to do all the things. Like, I it's not even just the learning, it's the doing. And so I think maybe that's where I'm getting caught. It's like I don't want to just learn so that I know things. I want to learn so that I can do the things. So I guess if if I can add to your question of I have all the knowledge and then I can take it and do the thing. Um I want to, I mean, I'm a great skier. I've been skiing since I was four. I want to like r I want to like be expert ski. Um, and so there's that.

Um, I want to the I'm a huge, huge hiking mountain travel human. So I would just want to like know topography better and understand maybe like herbal stuff as I walk and be like, I could eat this mushroom as I go. You know, and and maybe just like lifestyle around like living in the wilderness, like really actually understanding that, like the TV show alone. I'm obsessed with it for that reason. So really maybe survivalist stuff. I like really want to know so I can do that better. Uh naked and afraid, just like naked and blissful. My partner loves that show. That is the weirdest fucking shit. I used to love it. And then if you really are into the like the the afraid part of it, you should watch alone.

It's unbelievable. I need to watch that. I need to watch it. So good. You learn so much about humanity. And so there's not even a camera crew out there. You're feeling like it's just this these people who are actual survivalists who live in the middle of nowhere in off the grid, usually, and they put drop them in this plot of land, and they have to build a shelter, they have to procure their own procure their own food and survive. And you it's talk about like being fascinated by humans, like you literally can see in people's psyche when they're gonna tap because they start to miss their people, they start to feel things that are overwhelming, and and it's really it's really like a study of humanity, which so maybe that would be another thing too.

Like I want to understand um people better. I I feel like I understand them enough, but I I don't understand why some people are so horrifyingly awful and some people are so beautiful, and how we all live on this planet together. And so maybe if I understand humanity better, then I could also make better contributions and be a better insert this person here. And so maybe there's also that, but again, it's like not just the learning, like it's the learning to do the thing.

[42:02] Alan Seales: I'm not I think you opened up a really interesting line of thinking that I've all I've always wondered myself. All right, so when you're learning something, there is learning, there is learning literal fact of like this means this, that means that, yeah, uh, here's a formula you plug in in this situation, right? Then there's the learning by experience. So if you're gonna learn how to ski, technically, you could read all the books and all the manuals of how to do a triple sail cow double back clip upside down inside out and then putting it in the back. Did you trademark that name by the way?

[42:35] Jennifer Apple: That more registered that come at me, legal. Okay, and then uh but putting it into your body is a completely different thing. But then the the what you just said added a third facet to the way I was thinking about this was the data analysis because you can learn all the stats about all the people in all the world, but then figuring out how to process that and how to analyze that is its own skill in and of itself.

[42:58] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and that's where I think I thrive. Um that's kind of what I mean by like the gray area of stuff. Like I and the overthinking that you called me out on, like that is where my brain goes. Like I am a problem solver, not because I want to go to a spreadsheet. I'd actually rather die than go to a spreadsheet. I hate a spreadsheet so much in a way that like should not even be so viscerally in my body. Like I hate them so much. I feel just they were horrifying how much I think similar people. Yeah, it's really not my place. So, but like I'm just like a combination of me and you, Heather. Like, it's great. This is good. So like I want to hear all the things, I want to know all the things, I want to talk out all the things, I want to give you all the possibilities for everything.

I can map out every single one of them for you. I want to like get to the nitty-gritty about all the details, and I want to get super specific about it, but I don't actually want to do any of the like solving of the thing. I want to like see how each of them, and I'm willing to be flexible.

[43:53] Jennifer Apple: Drink. I have so many liquids right next to me. It's gonna, I'm just gonna be so hydrated by the end of this podcast. Like, how was it? I'm hydrated. Ginger shot. Um yeah, I I mean that is it's a different way of thinking that I think many it took me a while actually to realize that not everybody thinks like this. Yeah. Um and that it's a gift and also can be really isolating, actually. Um, because I uh for a while I assumed that everyone was thinking this way about possibilities and about um not actually coming to the conclusion of the thing and about being messy and about like making choices and seeing what's the best idea, you know, or it's a different way that not everybody is comfortable sitting in, and I love it. But I think that's probably the thing that makes you so great at all of the different things you do.

[44:41] Alan Seales: For certainly as a a coach and as a mentor helping people see those possibilities. But when you approach a song or a show or whatever from that perspective, you just get such a more full-bodied thinking response.

[44:55] Jennifer Apple: I think so. And I'd love to just think I mean, yeah, my goal would be to like encourage other folks to trust that part of themselves or to cultivate that part in themselves. I think there's something very it can be scary to like not be like, this is the answer. Let's do the thing. There is no one answer.

[45:09] Alan Seales: Thank you.

[45:11] Jennifer Apple: Exactly. Or never one right answer, certainly. That's like, you know. When um my now 15-year-old was in the third grade, the very first day of school, she was in a small class. There were only 12 kids in the class, and they all had a little whiteboard and they had to do a math problem. Yeah. And the answer had to be the day of the month.

[45:28] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[45:28] Jennifer Apple: And they were all tasked with come up with an equation to get to this same answer.

[45:36] Alan Seales: You mean like today being December 6th, the number had to be one two six?

[45:40] Jennifer Apple: Well, no, the number had to be six.

[45:42] Alan Seales: Oh, just six.

[45:43] Jennifer Apple: Okay, okay. Okay. So they sit with this. So it's like working backwards to get to the six. Yep. Okay. And you know, you could do uh 26 minus 20 equals six. You could do whatever, right? So then the kids come up with their own equation to solve for the day of the month. And then they went around the room and they shared their equation. And at the end, the teacher said, Did you notice that none of you had the same equation? But you all got the same answer. What does that tell you? And the third grader said that there are lots of ways to solve a problem.

[46:15] Alan Seales: I love it.

[46:16] Jennifer Apple: I love that. Ugh. Best teacher ever. So good. She is probably my favorite teacher the kids have ever had.

[46:22] Alan Seales: So wait.

[46:23] Jennifer Apple: That's kind of what I do that. I do that in master classes with students. I literally, and it goes to the same thing with like, you know, people show up. I have so many thoughts about this, my God. But people are always like, oh my God, should I not sing, you know, astonishing? It's on the do not sing list because it's overdone or whatever the words are, right? And it's like, I'm not a I actually do not subscribe to that. Why? Because if we are if you are going in for an audition that everybody's giving you the exact same material for, which they are, because that's what they usually do. The assumption isn't that every single one of you is going to be the same. That's the whole point. The whole point is that all of you are individuals who are gorgeous human beings who are different and gonna bring hopefully something different to the role.

Um, so you deciding not to sing astonishing because it's overdone. All what if your version of the thing is the thing that they need to see? And maybe and the way that you connect to say astonishing is actually so insert the adjectives here that you need to show up with. Like, why would you rob yourself of that opportunity because somebody told you rules that you should not do that, right? Same kind of vibe. In these master classes. I give a monologue out, and the the exercise is like, don't try to be interesting. Like, stop trying to be interesting. Be you. Like you are, like you are interesting enough, whatever that even means. You are unique enough, whatever that even means. Like this idea that we have to do things in a way to stand out versus just recognizing that like you as a human being is the thing that stands out.

Like it's wild that we've taught people, so myself included, it's the taking up space of it all. That like, and we have to rewire our brains. That like that the way that your beautiful brain thinks and gets to the thing is exactly why I want to watch you do the thing, and how you're, you know, like how these kids got to six, eight hundred different ways. Like, same anyway, diatribe. Um, okay.

[48:07] Alan Seales: No, I love it.

[48:10] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good idea. You fired up is it that's pretty cool.

[48:16] Alan Seales: Thanks.

[48:17] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. Um I think you might have, in the interest of time, I think you might have answered this question a little before, but we always ask in every episode what your relationship is with failure. And so I'd just love to have you sort of put some book ins on that.

[48:37] Jennifer Apple: I don't know if I believe in failure, because again, that's a word that somebody else defined for me. Like, what does it mean to fail? Like, I think that feels I don't actually fully understand it because failure is in comparison to something have right. So I I struggle with that word, just like I struggle with success. I don't like that word. I don't your version of success is different than mine. So why are we trying to come to a conclusive understanding of failure or success? Um, I don't understand what those words mean unless somebody gives me a very specific definition.

[49:14] Alan Seales: So with that in mind sheet, right?

[49:16] Jennifer Apple: That's what you're doing.

[49:16] Alan Seales: Exactly.

[49:17] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. So with that, I think I am not afraid of making mistakes. I'm not afraid of being messy. I'm not afraid of trying something and realizing that I could have done it differently, or maybe the next time I will. I think all of those are learning experiences that I really try very hard to integrate into myself. With that said, I do feel a responsibility when it comes to quote unquote failure, whatever that means towards others if I am in a situation where my quote unquote failure impacts other people. So maybe that like within within myself, I I don't necessarily think I feel it. But when it's in relationship to other people, that's when I think there's more pressure for me to quote unquote get it right so that I don't let other people down, or so that I don't pause a process, or so that I don't take up space in a way that people have to then show up to take care of me or to be burdened by me.

[50:31] Jennifer Apple: I don't those are my own things I'm navigating of not being a burden and not asking for help.

[50:36] Alan Seales: Interesting dichotomy that you're comfortable taking up space, you like taking up space, but you don't want to burden people by taking up space.

[50:42] Jennifer Apple: I know.

[50:43] Alan Seales: Welcome to my therapist's conundrum.

[50:47] Jennifer Apple: But I just think it goes to show that human beings are nuanced.

[50:50] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[50:50] Jennifer Apple: That all sorts of things can be true at once.

[50:52] Alan Seales: And again, to me, that falls perfectly in line with everything else you've shared and why you're so good at what you do, because everything's in the gray area.

[51:02] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[51:03] Alan Seales: We're gonna take a quick break.

[51:05] Jennifer Apple: Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[51:07] Alan Seales: And now we're back.

[51:09] Jennifer Apple: It's hard.

[51:10] Alan Seales: It's hard to live there when so many people want things to be clear.

[51:14] Jennifer Apple: Um, and certainly in a industry that we live so much in things not being clear, we search often for the things to just have answers so that we can hold on to anything concrete.

[51:26] Alan Seales: And so to add even more layers of nebulous nuance in my beautiful messy brain, you know, it's like sometimes, yeah, you just want to be like, This is a couch.

[51:36] Jennifer Apple: I am sitting on a couch. Like, period.

[51:40] Alan Seales: No, I'm sorry, it's a chaise lounge.

[51:42] Jennifer Apple: Thank you. For adding nuance.

[51:45] Alan Seales: Actually, it's an L-shape um separate piece, whatever.

[51:48] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, exactly.

[51:50] Alan Seales: Yeah, exactly. That is like the the conundrum of the human race being that we have to define things, we have to know what things are, we make up stories to explain things we don't know and we don't understand science, it's magic, blah, blah, blah.

[52:04] Jennifer Apple: But none of that is ever accurate.

[52:07] Alan Seales: Nothing lives black or white.

[52:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[52:09] Alan Seales: So we're stri we're constantly on this hamster wheel of eternal what is the meaning of life.

[52:15] Jennifer Apple: I just had an epiphany and I I don't know what to do with myself right now.

[52:19] Alan Seales: This is really weird.

[52:20] Jennifer Apple: It's also like I talked about this in a recent episode of my podcast where it's just like we, you know, I think ultimately if you put like 10 people in a room and you were all talking about a specific word or topic that's really contentious, even political, and you ask people actually to define the word that you are all there to talk about, the definitions would range.

[52:41] Alan Seales: But if you actually ask people what they felt about the thing or their value system in relationship to the thing, more often than not, like eight eight out of the ten will probably be on the same exact page.

[52:52] Jennifer Apple: They're just talking about it differently.

[52:54] Alan Seales: They're real there, the words that they use, the definitions that they operate from are different because of their own life experience and intersectionalities.

[53:02] Jennifer Apple: So yeah, it is this thing that like we actually are more often than not saying the same thing or wanting the same things.

[53:08] Alan Seales: We just do not know how to communicate.

[53:10] Jennifer Apple: Like we don't.

[53:12] Alan Seales: That's true.

[53:12] Jennifer Apple: We don't listen to one another to understand, to like take the time and be like, no, no, I don't, I still feel like I'm not fully understanding you.

[53:21] Alan Seales: What do you mean by this?

[53:22] Jennifer Apple: Like, what do you feel about this? What what is this for you?

[53:27] Alan Seales: And then this is for me.

[53:29] Jennifer Apple: And oh, are we actually saying the same thing?

[53:31] Alan Seales: We are actually we are, yeah.

[53:35] Jennifer Apple: Um, and that's where the that's where that gray area is so beautiful because you can.

[53:41] Alan Seales: I'm just gonna say this. It's what I love about human design is learning different things about people, and so that we my perspective isn't everybody else's perspective, and what works for me doesn't work for everyone else.

[53:50] Jennifer Apple: And yeah, when you find ways to communicate that bring that together, it's such a gift.

[53:56] Alan Seales: And you said something earlier, Jennifer, that I totally feel the the more I learn, the more I realize the less I know, and the older I get.

[54:07] Jennifer Apple: And to me, that's very freeing. That doesn't that that doesn't cause me any discomfort at all.

[54:12] Alan Seales: And like, oh man, I know so little.

[54:15] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and that's cool because then anything is possible.

[54:18] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[54:19] Jennifer Apple: I'm the I'm the opposite. I get bothered by the fact that there's so much that I realize I can't have the time to know in my lifetime.

[54:26] Alan Seales: I want to know it all, and I want to have all the data and figure out how to get AI to augment everything I'm doing so I can work faster.

[54:33] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, faster, more efficiently.

[54:36] Alan Seales: Oh God.

[54:37] Jennifer Apple: But we need both.

[54:38] Alan Seales: We need the both people and the way and these different perspectives to to live together because otherwise nothing would happen.

[54:46] Jennifer Apple: So, you know, I I I like I think again, there's no right way of doing it.

[54:50] Alan Seales: I think it's acknowledging that like people are are their own human gorgeous beings.

[54:55] Jennifer Apple: Like that's the whole thing.

[54:56] Alan Seales: And if we all were open to understanding and communicating how we all operate differently, then we would have a very hopefully thriving society that actually listened and cared for one another.

[55:06] Jennifer Apple: You know, but this is the utopia that you know lives in my brain, but not maybe in reality.

[55:11] Alan Seales: It's a beautiful place.

[55:12] Jennifer Apple: I think that's what makes us good podcast hosts.

[55:15] Alan Seales: Probably, yeah.

[55:15] Jennifer Apple: Because you balance those two things together.

[55:18] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[55:18] Jennifer Apple: All right, I'll take it.

[55:20] Alan Seales: A thousand percent.

[55:20] Jennifer Apple: I'll take it.

[55:21] Alan Seales: Whatever we could talk to you all day, every day, great for weeks and never get tired of it.

[55:26] Jennifer Apple: Couldn't so maybe we can revisit, come visit in Chicago if I'm in New York, we can all get together.

[55:31] Alan Seales: But you know, we should probably yeah, we should probably wrap this into even though I don't think we want to.

[55:38] Jennifer Apple: Um Thank you for having me. This was I love going on an adventure that feels grounded in intention and also curiosity, and you both are wonderful hosts who foster that kind of space.

[55:51] Alan Seales: And um it's been such a privilege to share that with you.

[55:54] Jennifer Apple: So thank you for having me. It's been so much fun.

[55:57] Alan Seales: We're on the we ask each other questions and prompt each other on the back end.

[56:01] Jennifer Apple: And we're both like, look at how excited she is.

[56:03] Alan Seales: This is so cool.

[56:03] Jennifer Apple: It's so fun to see and excited about it.

[56:05] Alan Seales: We're into it.

[56:06] Jennifer Apple: We love it.

[56:07] Alan Seales: Good, good, good.

[56:08] Jennifer Apple: I can sometimes get quite excited.

[56:10] Alan Seales: So I like it.

[56:11] Jennifer Apple: I like it a lot.

[56:12] Alan Seales: Well, how could we connect with you and find you online, get more coaching information, listen to the podcast? Where's where's all the things?

[56:18] Jennifer Apple: All the things. So you can always go to my website, jenniferapple.net when you have an Apple as a last name and there is a massive massive conglomerate or the first word that you learn as a child.

[56:27] Alan Seales: Um it's hard to have um, you know, things that are pretty straightforward with Apple in it.

[56:31] Jennifer Apple: So jenniferapple.net um we'll have um where my performer stuff lives, it has my where my writing stuff lives, where my podcast stuff lives, and more specifically my coaching.

[56:42] Alan Seales: Um there um you can always click through to my calendar where you can schedule directly.

[56:47] Jennifer Apple: If you ever have any questions about something very specific for you or a payment plan or whatever it is, like you can always email me, and that's also linked on the website.

[56:55] Alan Seales: My coaching email is Jennifer Apple Coaching at Gmail.

[56:59] Jennifer Apple: So you that is always open for the inbox.

[57:00] Alan Seales: But on socials, you can find me at Jennifer Apple underscore.

[57:04] Jennifer Apple: Again, you always see something there with the Apple.

[57:06] Alan Seales: Jennifer Apple underscore.

[57:08] Jennifer Apple: Um, and also for the podcast, the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast, you can always go to Empowered Artist Collective.com and or follow us on Instagram at Empowered Artist Collective.

[57:19] Alan Seales: Um, our episodes drop every Tuesday um wherever you stream, including YouTube.

[57:24] Jennifer Apple: So you can watch or you can listen um at your leisure.

[57:28] Alan Seales: You can go backwards, you can go forwards, you can bump around.

[57:31] Jennifer Apple: You can always leave a review on Apple if you like that.

[57:35] Alan Seales: Um we want reviews.

[57:36] Jennifer Apple: We'll leave you one if you'll leave us.

[57:38] Alan Seales: Done, sold.

[57:39] Jennifer Apple: Easy.

[57:39] Alan Seales: Yes.

[57:40] Jennifer Apple: I was a guest. It was a blast.

[57:43] Alan Seales: Um isn't so hard.

[57:45] Jennifer Apple: I know it's it is it's hard out there.

[57:47] Alan Seales: So those are probably the best ways.

[57:48] Jennifer Apple: Um, you know, I try very hard to keep my my healthy distance with um Instagram at the moment, but I am reachable and um the podcast um in part arts collective podcast page always has some like really cool reels and stuff and inspiration to engage with if you needed a little bit more of like an you know uplift.

[58:07] Alan Seales: So those are my my places.

[58:09] Jennifer Apple: You are the best.

[58:10] Alan Seales: Thank you.

[58:11] Jennifer Apple: Thank you so much.

[58:12] Alan Seales: This was fantastic.

[58:13] Jennifer Apple: Thank you.

[58:17] Alan Seales: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[58:18] Jennifer Apple: Alan, Alan, Alan, Alan, Alan, Alan.

[58:20] Alan Seales: What, what, what?

[58:21] Jennifer Apple: What would you want to learn if you had the cord plugged into the back of your head?

[58:24] Alan Seales: Oh gosh. Um I I think something oh like space-time, uh universe expansion, like there's so much about our our teeny tiny existence in this physical realm that I do not understand and I want to grasp.

[58:43] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[58:43] Alan Seales: And just thinking about the fact that what we see is literally only what we see because light is physical and it takes a certain amount of time for light to go from one place to another.

[58:55] Jennifer Apple: So there's more that we haven't even had the time yet, the hundreds of trillions of years to get to us.

[59:05] Alan Seales: And of course, we're in the center of our observable universe, but where are we in the grand scheme of things?

[59:11] Jennifer Apple: It's just, oh, oh.

[59:12] Alan Seales: Anyway, this is stuff I spend a lot of time learning, and I can't ever know it all.

[59:15] Jennifer Apple: And so I hear you saying you want to know it all. That's very cool.

[59:18] Alan Seales: My answer is not it's not like that.

[59:23] Jennifer Apple: What's your answer?

[59:24] Alan Seales: I thought about it a lot as we were talking and Jennifer was talking about it.

[59:28] Alan Seales: And I it was the first thing that really popped up, and then I could overthink it if I wanted.

[59:33] Alan Seales: I would want to be able to speak every language.

[59:35] Jennifer Apple: Ooh.

[59:36] Alan Seales: Wouldn't that be nice if everyone just understood each other like Star Trek?

[59:41] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[59:41] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[59:42] Jennifer Apple: Like we just had translators.

[59:43] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[59:44] Jennifer Apple: I just think it would be yes.

[59:46] Alan Seales: Yep.

[59:47] Jennifer Apple: So I could communicate.

[59:48] Alan Seales: I could do anything.

[59:49] Jennifer Apple: It would be unfucking stoppable if I could speak every language.

[59:51] Alan Seales: Wouldn't it be great if there was like a there was like a lie indicator or something?

[59:54] Jennifer Apple: Like you could just tell when someone wasn't being truthful.

[59:57] Alan Seales: So it proved that it it forced everyone to have to be honest with not only themselves but everyone else.

[1:00:03] Jennifer Apple: That would be cool.

[1:00:05] Alan Seales: Right?

[1:00:05] Jennifer Apple: Um how much fun was that conversation with Jennifer Apple?

[1:00:09] Alan Seales: Mega fun.

[1:00:10] Jennifer Apple: Oh mega fun.

[1:00:11] Alan Seales: If you are not watching this episode now the video version of this episode is on Spotify.

[1:00:17] Jennifer Apple: Because Spotify supports video uploads now.

[1:00:21] Alan Seales: So if you're logged in with a free account on Spotify, I have no stock in them.

[1:00:24] Jennifer Apple: I'm just saying that's how you watch it.

[1:00:26] Alan Seales: You can watch her face.

[1:00:28] Jennifer Apple: I was getting so excited watching her get excited about it.

[1:00:31] Alan Seales: I was getting excited watching her too but it was fun to watch you because you're like your body language changes and your face I was like oh well passionate people passionate people I don't care what you're passionate about.

[1:00:41] Jennifer Apple: You can be passionate about dung beetles just be passionate about something and I will want to listen to you talk about it.

[1:00:47] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:00:48] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[1:00:48] Alan Seales: But she brings that energy she brings it to the stage.

[1:00:51] Jennifer Apple: I've seen her perform um I'm sure she brings that to coaching and there's a cheerlitter aspect to that where if you feel really believed in if somebody's really excited about the thing that you're doing then you believe in yourself even more.

[1:01:04] Alan Seales: So I don't know she just I think she's awesome.

[1:01:06] Jennifer Apple: She could start a cult that I would join.

[1:01:08] Alan Seales: She would be a good cult leader.

[1:01:09] Jennifer Apple: Oh wait can we put can we put Lindsay Rush in there too?

[1:01:12] Alan Seales: Oh yeah yeah Lindsay Rush and Jennifer Apple together as our co-cult leaders.

[1:01:17] Jennifer Apple: Oh, I wonder if they know each other.

[1:01:19] Alan Seales: We the you guys, if you're both listening to this, you should know each other because I just have a feeling that could be fun.

[1:01:24] Jennifer Apple: I see it maybe a a play or a musical in the making off of Lindsay's poetry.

[1:01:32] Alan Seales: Yeah, I like that.

[1:01:33] Jennifer Apple: I like that too.

[1:01:34] Alan Seales: All right.

[1:01:35] Jennifer Apple: All right.

[1:01:36] Alan Seales: So, Alan, how can people connect with us and follow us and all that fun stuff?

[1:01:42] Jennifer Apple: Um, side note, if you're watching now, you can see that I need to get some blinds in my recording studio here.

[1:01:48] Alan Seales: It got very bright.

[1:01:49] Jennifer Apple: No, this is this is the first time the building across from me that has been had it's had four years in the making.

[1:01:55] Alan Seales: It is finally complete.

[1:01:56] Jennifer Apple: It is the first full year I am now living with this building, and apparently this time of year is when the southern sky reflects off the southern side of this all-glass building and shines right in my face.

[1:02:09] Alan Seales: I'm excited to see the building finished all these years.

[1:02:11] Jennifer Apple: I've never seen it finished.

[1:02:12] Alan Seales: Yeah, so now I gotta go get some shades.

[1:02:14] Jennifer Apple: I was like, uh it's time for Slim Shady to come back.

[1:02:17] Alan Seales: Okay.

[1:02:17] Jennifer Apple: Um, so how can they connect with us at Gmail?

[1:02:20] Alan Seales: Was it chance podcast at gmail.com.

[1:02:22] Jennifer Apple: We're on threads and Instagram and TikTok at was it chance.

[1:02:28] Alan Seales: So hit us up.

[1:02:29] Jennifer Apple: Slip in our DMs, do our things.

[1:02:31] Alan Seales: Please do.

[1:02:32] Jennifer Apple: And really truly, we would love it if you would subscribe, if you would rate, review, whatever's happening on your favorite app, share it with other people.

[1:02:40] Alan Seales: The more you do, the more we grow, and we can bring you, keep bringing you these amazing guests.

[1:02:45] Jennifer Apple: Thank you so much for listening.

[1:02:47] Alan Seales: You have been listening to Was It Chance, the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life.

[1:02:52] Jennifer Apple: I'm Heather Vickery.

[1:02:54] Alan Seales: And I'm Alan Seales.

[1:02:55] Jennifer Apple: Bye y'all.

[1:02:56] Alan Seales: Bye-bye.