This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Josh Mitchell: Hey Theatre fans, welcome and thanks for tuning in.

[0:03] Josh Mitchell: This is just a quick heads up for everyone with warning uh triggers around this topic.

[0:09] Josh Mitchell: This episode does contain conversations about rape and sexual assault.

[0:12] Josh Mitchell: So please, please, please be careful as you listen through. Enjoy, and we will see you on the other side.

[0:24] Josh Mitchell: Theatre fans one and all, welcome back to the We Are Theatre Podcast.

[0:28] Josh Mitchell: Today we are still in the UK.

[0:30] Josh Mitchell: I seem to be making a home over here, guys, even though I'm on the other side of the world.

[0:34] Josh Mitchell: Um, but we are talking about another amazing play uh that is coming to you guys in London.

[0:38] Josh Mitchell: Uh I am joined today by Calum and Georgina uh from Penetration.

[0:44] Josh Mitchell: Hey guys, how are you going?

[0:45] Georgina Armfield: Hi, good morning.

[0:47] Calum Wragg-Smith: Lovely to be here.

[0:48] Georgina Armfield: Thanks for having us.

[0:49] Josh Mitchell: No, no stress at all.

[0:51] Josh Mitchell: Uh let's kick everybody off. Do you guys want to give us a little overview of what this show is about?

[0:57] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, and we'll go into depth later on about obviously the themes and everything, but just give us an overview of what they can expect coming to see this show.

[1:05] Georgina Armfield: Yes.

[1:06] Georgina Armfield: Well, the play Penetration explores the confusion which surrounds society's failure to understand the concept of consent.

[1:15] Georgina Armfield: And when Sean, my character, is accused of rape by Anna, played by Georgina.

[1:20] Georgina Armfield: The play follows their journeys over the next three years and how their lives are completely derailed by this uh event.

[1:29] Josh Mitchell: I love that. Deep, I yeah, wow, what a journey.

[1:34] Josh Mitchell: Um, so as your characters obviously have kind of almost polarizing parts in the play to an extent.

[1:42] Josh Mitchell: Um go through and just explain your character's role um in a little more depth, not giving away too much, but like just give us a little more context as to your characters.

[1:53] Georgina Armfield: Um Gina, do you want to start?

[1:56] Georgina Armfield: Absolutely.

[1:56] Georgina Armfield: So I'm playing the character of Anna, and she is a medical student.

[2:00] Georgina Armfield: Uh we're looking at kind of the early 20s age group and university, and uh it's about a moment that happens uh between her and Sean.

[2:10] Georgina Armfield: Uh I think she has no idea the way it will affect the rest of her life, you know, where it will affect the rest of his life.

[2:17] Georgina Armfield: Um, but I think it's a really important conversation about consent, um, especially in the world we're in, and hopefully it will be kind of an education and will start to crump sort of questions in the audience members' minds when they come see it.

[2:33] Calum Wragg-Smith: I love that, Cal.

[2:35] Calum Wragg-Smith: I play the character of uh Sean Jackson, and Sean is a medical student and very much one of life's sort of winners.

[2:45] Calum Wragg-Smith: He he is uh accused of of rape, and it's from there it's quite a an agonizing decline um for the next three years while he is awaiting trial.

[3:00] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um and the play it's it's a challenging journey for for both characters and it explores both of their journeys.

[3:10] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um for for the character of Sean, uh he is uh barred from his university.

[3:16] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um he he is his name is out there in public and everyone knows um Sean Jackson is known as a as a as a rapist.

[3:27] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um I guess it it follows the impact of that on on his life psychologically, um, and uh it it's a slow and and steady decline.

[3:39] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um and and yeah.

[3:42] Josh Mitchell: How how long are you guys been working on this show for?

[3:46] Josh Mitchell: Like were you a part of this cast prior to lockdowns and everything?

[3:51] Georgina Armfield: Yeah, so this show is uh said we'll be on April 2020, um, before the world explodes.

[3:58] Georgina Armfield: Um so we've had two postponements, uh but we're finally here.

[4:02] Georgina Armfield: We've been uh in the rehearsal room for just over a week now.

[4:06] Georgina Armfield: It's completely amazing to be in the room.

[4:08] Georgina Armfield: But yeah, it started off we had sort of the odd meeting on Zoom to kind of keep the momentum going over those very long easy months.

[4:14] Georgina Armfield: Um, but yeah, it's just so great to be in the room and finally doing and telling these stories and going on these journeys.

[4:20] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, and getting back into the room, obviously we had the big kind of um we me too movement come through during that lockdown period as well.

[4:30] Josh Mitchell: So coming back into that rehearsal room after that period away, um, were perspectives a little different, or do you as actors do you feel like you had already been kind of dealing with that conversation and those themes that were brought up due to that MeToo movement going back into that rehearsal room?

[4:50] Georgina Armfield: I think there's been some amazing conversations in the rehearsal room.

[4:53] Georgina Armfield: I mean, there's been a lot of discussion, which is absolutely fantastic.

[4:57] Georgina Armfield: Um I just think you know, we're in this world of a no means no culture, and actually, you know, we should be looking at affirmative consent that yes means yes, you know, silence is not consent.

[5:09] Georgina Armfield: Um, and you know, you're not spoiling a moment, you are seeking consent.

[5:13] Georgina Armfield: I think it's a time when women are claiming bodies as their own.

[5:16] Georgina Armfield: Um, and it's just so important that you know we are educating and we are continually learning because things are changing, you know.

[5:23] Georgina Armfield: As you say, you know, for the last 18 months, so much has changed.

[5:27] Calum Wragg-Smith: Yeah, and it is very aware of the world we're in now and how far we have to go, but how far we really you know just need to be educating and learning, and this is such a hot, important thing.

[5:39] Calum Wragg-Smith: I mean, I've been, you know, for us has been amazing because you know, I felt very passionate about this.

[5:45] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, I guess being being a woman and just just the commendation of the cards would be absolutely just fantastic.

[5:51] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, and yeah, I'm just really excited to tell this story.

[5:56] Calum Wragg-Smith: Yeah, I think what just to add on to what Gina was saying, um, I think this play, having first read it about two and a half years ago, uh, it's completely transformed my own opinion and my own understanding of consent and the boundaries um that I think are really important.

[6:16] Calum Wragg-Smith: And you know, talking talking from a personal perspective, um, when I've had sort of sexual relationships uh since reading the play, my my sort of uh my approach has changed.

[6:29] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, the way that I think about things in the room is different, and I think that that's why this play is very important.

[6:35] Calum Wragg-Smith: It's completely it has a profound impact on the way that we think about consent and then those boundaries.

[6:40] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, and I think that if we can, if there can be one or two people that leave the audience after watching the play and and question stuff that they've done in the past and and and look to the future and see how they can change their approach when uh having a sexual um experience.

[6:56] Calum Wragg-Smith: I think that we've we've we've done a we've done our job.

[6:59] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um, and I think that's the really important thing about this this piece of theatre.

[7:03] Georgina Armfield: Yeah, and that shines a brilliant light on like my biggest takeaway from this last 18 18 months is how much I was uneducated and had to re like re-look at approaches to those situations myself.

[7:20] Georgina Armfield: And like, why isn't this how I did things?

[7:25] Georgina Armfield: Like why do I have to make this change?

[7:27] Georgina Armfield: Like it just absolutely dumbfounded me.

[7:29] Georgina Armfield: Like, why wasn't this instilled in me from ages ago?

[7:35] Georgina Armfield: Like, why is this a conversation that actually needs to be had?

[7:40] Calum Wragg-Smith: Absolutely.

[7:41] Calum Wragg-Smith: And at school uh and at university, you know, these conversations from my experiences of school and university, they weren't they weren't happening.

[7:50] Calum Wragg-Smith: And I think it's really important from a very young age that we start having these conversations with children uh about consent and putting them the boundaries uh and understanding what consent means because I think that's the way that we're gonna do it.

[8:06] Calum Wragg-Smith: Um starting at a very young age and and getting these things instilled uh because too many people who are that you know that I know that don't have don't have this understanding and across the world they don't have this understanding about about consent.

[8:21] Georgina Armfield: Um so I think starting young and starting at school and starting at university, you know, is really important to help um solve this this this issue.

[8:31] Georgina Armfield: Absolutely.

[8:32] Georgina Armfield: And I think there's so many times where you put down a bad experience as sort of miscommunication or bad sex, but you know, so many people don't report things that happen, sex results, um, whether because they can't think about it as rape because they almost want to disassociate themselves from what happened, or you know, they're not sure whether it was really rape because we have this stereotype of what rape is, and if it doesn't exactly fit that blueprint, you know, victims could feel that therefore that that denies their experience so I just think there's so many brilliant things going on in this play that opening so many conversations um yeah it's been really really brilliant to work on.

[8:32] Calum Wragg-Smith: Yeah I I love it um as actors and um like creative people doing research into roles especially with a topic like this how did you go about discovering your characters and really understanding the weight of the themes that you were presenting on stage to do them justice as well as portray a story.

[9:34] Calum Wragg-Smith: For me for me I I went to speak to people that and spent a lot of time with those that have been uh accused of rape and to understand the impact it has on them physically and emotionally and getting under the skin of of those people and hearing their real accounts of of their journeys with it helped me to sort of tap into tap into that um and to explore those different uh those different states both physically and mentally um before getting into the rehearsal room just to get my just to get clarity on the on on you know the feeling um once we've been in the rehearsal room uh we've done we've done a lot of work in the rehearsal room haven't we um and uh yeah there's been uh there's been a lot of debate uh about the topic I think that's that's great um and and yeah just just doing as much research as as as as I can really about uh about people that have gone through this uh and understanding how it's how it's affected them um and and trying to sort of get that in the body uh as much as possible because it's to get into these states quite quickly uh you know as an actor you need to have little ways of being able to access them um you know on the turn of a sixpence really and uh for me as an actor I like to work a lot quite physically uh and and use um physicality to help me enter these states um and so I guess just speaking to loved ones that have been through uh people that have been very close to me about uh depression and and and suicidal thoughts and and and getting into you know the how that has an effect on on your your tone of voice uh and the way your eye contact and where you look and the way you touch your face and where your weight is in the body and and and all of these and all of these things.

[11:27] Calum Wragg-Smith: And then you know as I'm walking on the street just for a moment tapping into Sean and seeing you know how he would walk down the street when I'm brushing my teeth you know how would he brush his teeth in that morning.

[11:37] Calum Wragg-Smith: So I guess it's it's in the rehearsal room and then it's also you know when you're in this process whilst you're doing the show it's uh it for me as an actor I find it useful to to tap into it as much as I can um so that I sort of it's it's in the body and it's in the it's in the body and so that when when the show opens, you know it's all muscle memory it's all there and and all I have to do is is turn up on stage and listen to the other actor and and and hope that it's it's all the work has been done um so that you know it can be a truthful and honest reflection of of the character and and and do him and do him justice because this play was uh as written and was inspired by seven true stories.

[12:21] Calum Wragg-Smith: So there's a lot of truth in there and, you know, for me, I've got a duty to be this character Sean and to reflect it as truthfully and honestly as possible just to do service to these stories. I love that Jenna. I have been also talking to lots of women, my loved ones, friends, and just gathering so much information because I think the tragedy is these are the most common types of rape that go to trial. So I think I've just been trying to gather a lot of experience on how women feel. I've been doing so much reading. I mean, we've been coming sort of to rehearsals and then we would sort of end up going home and spending hours and hours and hours reading and listening to podcasts and researching and just really trying to fully embody what's happened to Anna.

There's so much information online, so I'm finding it's actually quite staggering, you know, how many people have had these sort of awful experiences. So, you know, collating a lot of that information, and yeah, there's been so much body work because, you know, you do know trauma and where it is in your body and how you hold it and how it affects you. What's so interesting about the play is because it's over a three-year period, you really get to go on this journey of the character. Physically, I mean, you know, every scene you come on, there's a huge physical shift because of something that's gone on, and it's just fascinating. There is so much to unpick, and it's such detailed work, and it is just such a pleasure to be working on something that feels so honest, and that we are telling people's stories, sometimes that maybe have never been told. I think that is so important. So I feel a lot of weight on me to do this justice.

[14:24] Georgina Armfield: Yeah, 100%. I read "multi-layered" when I was reading a description of this show, and now I'm like, I don't think "multi" is a big enough word there to use. Taking all of this on, getting into the rehearsal room, and I just want to go through this from kind of not so much a patron's perspective, but for those in the industry. I think more and more of these types of shows are coming out. We're seeing it on Broadway with things like "Jagged Little Pill" that just opened, discussing these same types of things in that musical format. Getting the material in your hands, reading this play, realizing what it is dealing with, and then getting into a room with other creatives, what were those initial meetings with all the cast and crew like to get everybody on the same page?

Have everybody understand, cool, we're trying to do this, but we're gonna do it in a way that's respectful to everybody, give everybody time to learn and grow with their characters and their involvement in this story in different ways. Just what was that initial process like for you guys and interacting with everybody else that's in the show as well?

[15:41] Calum Wragg-Smith: I think this has been a very collaborative process. It's a new piece of writing, so it's never been performed before. The director was very keen to ensure that we all had a part to play. When we're rehearsing, we're often in there, and there are certain lines that we've been able to discuss and see if that really is the right line there. It's been a very collaborative process, hasn't it? And that's been really nice because, you know, sometimes it's just one way, and that's the way led by the director. I think this has been a nice experience because he wanted to pull out the creative ideas of all of us in the room. I think the first time I read this play was about two and a half, three years ago, actually.

It was for a rehearsed reading of this play at a drama school in London. That was the first time I read the words with an audience. From that experience, the play slightly changed because we had that response from the audience, and it's been a changing, breathing, living organism since the very early stages, I guess is what I'm trying to say. From that rehearsed reading, things have changed, and the way that we've discussed the play, and up until now, things are still changing, aren't they? A little bit every day, absolutely. We're still finding these nuances in the play, which is really cool because it's never going to be the same play. I guess it's been a collaborative process because it's new writing, and it's been lovely going.

Also, there's so many different ages and genders in the room, but there are so many different people in the room that we've all got our own ideas and our own opinions on it. Some of them have been completely shifted. I think that's really cool as well, that we've got young and old and different generations. Just having that conversation has changed our own opinions. I can only put it from a personal perspective; my ideas on this have completely transformed during the process of opening up the play and learning about it as much as possible, which I think is a really good thing.

[18:30] Georgina Armfield: Yeah, just it's been lovely that everyone has a voice that is so valued in a rehearsal room. I think when you're working in a room, we're all just so happy to be there after 18 months of strangeness, and there's so much passion in the room. To have these conversations and see people's perspectives shift, it's just so exciting because that's what theatre's all about, really, isn't it? That's why we love it. It challenges you; it makes you think. You know, the best plays I've seen in my life are the ones that you walk out and it's almost like your brain is imploded because you're still thinking about them three days later. You're unfolding everything, and I just really hope this play will start wonderful conversations, very important conversations, and we'll maybe do that to some people. I just think that's when theatre's doing its job, isn't it?

[19:20] Calum Wragg-Smith: 100%. That leads me perfectly into this next question. Getting this show on stage after so long, delays, lockdowns, getting in there, getting that audience in, and getting to actually present this story for audience consumption and to hear that initial reaction and see faces during the show. What are you guys most looking forward to in that first encounter with an audience after all this time?

[19:51] Georgina Armfield: For me, it's the sort of pin-drop moment of listening and sharing an experience. I think one of the things I just found so sad about theatre closing down for so long was, you know, that moment you can be sitting next to a complete stranger and you're both crying, and you've never met each other, but you've connected over a story that you've seen in front of you. I think it's that feeling of shared experience. The first time I went back into a theatre when things opened up here in London, I cried because I just found it so moving to be sharing and connecting with people again in a way because theatre connects you to people like nothing else.

[20:27] Calum Wragg-Smith: Yeah, for me, I think it's this coming together and sharing that I'm just so excited about.

[20:34] Josh Mitchell: I tried to explain that to a friend of mine who had never been to theatre, and I was like, you just don't get it. Like, it's one thing to watch a musical on your TV, and shout out to "Hamilton" and everything like that. I watched that, and I was like, this isn't the same. Then I got back in that first show, I had people around me, and you just heard everybody as that overture started. Everybody just took this, and someone told me in a recent podcast that did you know when people go to the theatre? I don't know if it's the same with plays, but I know with musicals, nearly everybody's hearts beat in sync with the music. I was like, whoa, that speaks to the absolute reason why we need theatre in our community, I think.

[21:24] Calum Wragg-Smith: Back to the question, what are you looking forward to?

[21:27] Georgina Armfield: I love the idea of all of our hearts beating in unison. What I'm looking forward to is after the show, the discussion and friends coming up and saying, you know, "God, it felt like I'm gonna reevaluate the way that I interact in the bedroom, and I'm gonna reevaluate my own behavior." I think those discussions that we have afterwards are gonna be really interesting. We've got a couple of Q&As actually during the run, and I think those are gonna be fascinating as well, with audience members asking questions too. The writer, Carolyn Lloyd Davis, and the director, and the cast. I think those are gonna be super cool, but yeah, I'm very excited to be getting back on stage. It's been a long two-year period, really, like a year period. I don't know what the feeling is; it's been so long. This play's been a long time in the waiting.

[22:38] Josh Mitchell: It really has, and I've been super excited to get stuck into it because it's a very important story to be told, and yeah, I'm very excited to get back on stage. I get this feeling that it was almost meant to be delayed so what has happened could happen. So fingers crossed for you guys. For you guys listening, I highly recommend the show. I will not be able to make it because I'm on the other side of the damn world, but please go for me like every other show that we've spoken about recently. You guys are on from the 22nd of September to the 9th of October at The Cockpit. The links to all tickets and everything will be down below, guys, so make sure you click on there.

[23:17] Josh Mitchell: Guys, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you both. That was such a great chat, and I've definitely got a lot out of it. Thank you so much.

[23:27] Calum Wragg-Smith: It's been wonderful.

[23:28] Georgina Armfield: Thank you.

[23:26] Calum Wragg-Smith: Thank you so much, man. It's been great fun.

[23:31] Josh Mitchell: No worries. Guys, you will catch us in the next episode of the We Are Theatre Podcast next week. Thanks for joining us. Bye.

[23:38] Georgina Armfield: See ya.