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[0:00] Jeryl Brunner: From Shakespeare to Schwartz, from Fawcett to Alvin Ailey, from Sondheim to Borelis, from McNally to Fay, it happened to the greats. It still happens every day. When lightning strikes, it's the moment you know. When lightning strikes, where you're meant to go. You can stand and shout, Eureka, do whatever you like. You'll never forget the moment when lightning strikes. This is Jeryl Brunner and you're listening to When Lightning Strikes.

[0:32] Jeryl Brunner: Tim Jackson is a prolific Tony-nominated director and choreographer whose work includes Broadway, the West End, film, and television. He developed, directed, and choreographed Two Strangers (Carry A Cake Across New York), now playing on Broadway. The hit show has been nominated for eight Tony Awards, including Best Musical and Best Direction for Tim. His credits also include Dylan Mulvaney’s The Least Problematic Woman In The World, Something Rotten, and Merrily We Roll Along. Well, welcome.

[1:18] Tim Jackson: Thank you. What a lovely introduction. It's like a little potted history. I love it. All those lovely shows that I've loved doing.

[1:25] Jeryl Brunner: Well, I cannot get over how one human works in all these mediums. When I was researching more, doing more of a deep dive, of course, I know about Merrily and Dylan's show. And then I learned about Bill Nye and how you coached him for the movie Living.

[1:48] Tim Jackson: Yeah, which is so beautiful.

[1:50] Jeryl Brunner: Let's start with Two Strangers. And tell me when that show came into your life.

[1:56] Tim Jackson: So it was actually back in 2018. I was approached by one of the producers, Tim Johanson, and I'd worked with him about six years previously. I'd been the musical supervisor for Floyd Collins in the UK. And we had such an amazing time together. And in the time in between, we kept in touch with each other. And he knew that I was super passionate about new musicals and getting involved in as many as I possibly could. And at the time, they weren't looking for a director. They were just looking for a dramaturg to help steer the ship and develop the script and the songs. And so he came to me and they sent me the script. And I honestly, I read 10 pages and called him straight back and said, please don't show this to anyone else.

I really want to do this. I love this so much. I just really connected with the characters. And they also sent New York, the song New York as well. So I had that one and I was like, oh, my goodness, I have to be involved in this. And obviously I would have liked to have been the director. But at this stage, just being in the room and getting to work on the material was enough to make me excited. And so, yeah, we did three workshops and then halfway through the third workshop, they took me to one side and the producers like this. You're obviously the right person to direct this show. And we'd be silly not to bring you on board in that capacity as well. So it was a really lovely way to come into it because I wasn't coming in with any of you to direct it. I'd been told quite frankly that it wouldn't be me. And so I was just really getting to enjoy the joy, the beautiful material.

[3:37] Tim Jackson: I think what's so special about it and what jumped off the page to me is the way that the music and the lyrics and the text all sort of mesh together so harmoniously. And I think that's a testament to the extraordinary writers, Kit Buckingham and Jim Barne, who are just the best. And I know you've met them lots of times now. They're the nicest, aren't they? And they are so, so talented. And I think the fact that they've been friends since they were nine years old, as it just you can feel that harmony between them and you can feel this like sort of this pull between all elements that just come in together in this really yummy, delicious way of writing. And they just they love each other so much. They take such good care of each other, which just means it's so easy to work with them because everyone is just really passionate about doing right by each other. So it's been a gorgeous environment.

[4:26] Jeryl Brunner: Yes. I know people say it's too ordinary people, but they become so extraordinary in their collection. Do you mind sharing for people who might not know what this show is about? I love the dynamic of it, the setup of it.

[4:45] Tim Jackson: Yeah. I mean, it's so exciting because it's completely original. So it's just an idea that just came out of their heads, which I'm always really drawn to. But the premise is there's a character called Dougal who's never met his dad and he lives in the UK and his dad lives in America. And he gets this invite to his dad's wedding, which is just the most exciting thing that could have ever happened to him because he's always sort of wanted this connection with his father. And he comes to New York to meet his dad. And he's met at the airport at JFK by Duke, by Robin, who is the sister of the bride to be. And what transpires is the next 48 hours in New York together. And what and they are seemingly at the front of the show.

They're these two very opposite people who wouldn't necessarily gel together. But the circumstance of having to be put into each other's orbit because of the wedding means that they spend this time together and go on these this epic journey. And it's a real adventure. It's a it's a love letter to New York City. They whiz all over the city. They experience a myriad of different things that are just full of secrets and surprises. And so on paper, I think some people think they're coming to see a cute little romcom with two people in it. But actually, it's a lot bigger than that. There's a there's a there's a great deal of scale to it because you've got New York as this third character and obviously New York, anything is possible. And so the scope for hilarity and wildness and a sort of an adventure, an odyssey for these two characters is what happens.

[6:25] Jeryl Brunner: And I know you've worked extensively in New York, but how has your vision of New York changed since doing the show?

[6:34] Tim Jackson: And you're right, it is such a love letter to New York, especially that gorgeous song, New York. And it's also if you know New York, it's so hilarious the way New York is portrayed by somebody who doesn't know New York, so charming. I think Jim and I had all received New York principally via movies. And so we had a movie idea of what New York should be. And that's actually why there's so much affection written into the piece, because there's an admiration and I want to be part of that Big Apple. And so I feel like actually that New York has come through. And spending time in New York, I have had these wonderful times and I have had these magical moments and I still do step out into Times Square.

And I'm still shocked and in awe of the scale of everything and the joy and the vibrancy and the melting pot of people and the kaleidoscope of cultures. I feel like it delivers on all those things that I thought it would do and more. And I must say, in terms of the sort of Broadway of it all, we've been welcomed with such open arms. I think we were intimidated and doing a story that set New York in New York. We didn't know whether we would receive pushback or that you don't know our city. And in fact, it's been quite the opposite. People have been so supportive of us and have actually said, do you know what, seeing your show has made me fall back in love with my city. And it has reminded me what I love about it.

So in that way, I think that's also been a really lovely thing. But I mean, I've tried as much as I can to lean into the joy and the opportunity of what we're experiencing, and I've not been at all, not felt at all like trying to play it cool. Every single moment has been exciting. I've gone, oh, my God, this is the best because I don't want to take it for granted. It's a wonderful opportunity. And to be doing it with Kit and Jim, who've become two of my best friends over this process and with the glorious cast, everyone who works on the show I love. And so it's just such a treat to all be doing it together.

[8:47] Jeryl Brunner: And your set is one of the most innovative, glorious, creative sets. I mean, it's a magical set. I don't even any time I see it with someone, I'll say, oh, what's going on with all those suitcases? And I just zip my mouth as much as I want to say it. But wait until you see, you know, that set is just genius.

[9:09] Tim Jackson: Yeah, it really is. Sucha Gilmore, our set designer, is a genius, a true genius. I met her working on Merrily We Roll Along. And so we've been working with each other over various different iterations of that show for 13 years. So we have a lovely chemistry between us anyway. But I knew that she was the right person to do it because she's just a master of achieving such elegance and beauty and a sort of abstract art installation type of design. But also she's funny. She's really funny. So there's a whimsy and a wit to what she creates. And we both knew from the get-go that we wanted to create a playground for the actors. When you've got a two-person show, it has to be all about the actors, of course.

But we also wanted to make sure that the visual was always changing because we wanted to try and encapsulate what it's like to be in a city where you turn a corner and there's a new secret and there's a new surprise. But what we didn't want is two actors bringing on a load of set and pushing off a load of set and just a constant on-off of realistic pieces of scenery. So we wanted it to be abstracted and it actually took us a long time to get there. We did three whole sessions where we just sat and chatted. But it was just so fulfilling to not rush into it, but just really like get down into the nitty-gritty of what it was that made us excited. And then we came upon suitcases because there's this feeling of both of the characters being left behind a bit.

And that felt like a sort of life luggage sort of feeling. And also that New York is a city that has been built of immigrants who've arrived and brought their stories and brought their histories with them in their suitcases. And so that felt very New Yorky. And we wanted and also there's something about an airport which is so alive because it's such it's this liminal space, isn't it, where for some people you're saying goodbye to someone and some people you're going to see someone that you love. And so some people are going to miss people terribly. And some people can't wait to get away. It's such a melting pot of different emotions. And I've been very happy in an airport before. And I've also been very sad in an airport before. And so it's just such a charged space. So it lends itself perfectly to a theatre piece.

[11:29] Jeryl Brunner: It's gorgeous. And I love the trajectory of this story, how it started, dare I say, scrappy. Right. And how it's moved and how I love that you were with it so early. Do you mind sharing some of the trajectory? Because I love your or the origin story of the show, too.

[11:48] Tim Jackson: Yeah. So when I came on board, the show was definitely in its infancy and there were actually several songs that are absolutely wonderful that haven't made their way into the show just because they weren't necessarily serving the beats that we needed to at each point. But hopefully maybe one day there'll be a playlist of all the songs that didn't make it that are wonderful. But it's gone from a tiny sort of underground studio theatre with sort of 30 people listening to it. Well, actually, it was before that it was picked up at a new writing festival, which is when the producers found it very cleverly because it was genius back then. And then we took it to regional theatres, two regional theatres, the Royal and Derngate in Northampton and the new Wolsey Theatre in Ipswich.

And then it then it came to London to the Kiln Theatre. And that's when Sutra Gilmore came on board as set designer. And that's when Sam Tatti joined. And then it went to the West End. And then we did a lot of rewrites and took it to ART in Boston. And then ART then led to Broadway. And every single time we've done it, we've done lots of rewrites and we've really made sure we were as thorough as we could to try and elevate it at each juncture. And because we love working with each other so much, that's been a really easy thing to do because we can't wait to get back in a room together and get stuck in. But I think the one the biggest sort of transition was when we moved to America. We've done a lot of care all the way through the process of trying to involve as many Americans through the process as possible because we wanted it to feel authentic and we didn't want to do any big, big old gaps, getting anything wrong.

But there was something about Christiane joining our process that felt extra magical. She just brought her special essence and brought her magic into the piece. And it felt like we learned a lot about the character Robin. And that character grew in the Boston iteration and has continued to grow as we've moved to Broadway.

[14:04] Tim Jackson: What they managed to do so seamlessly is look as if none of that's happening, and it's just sort of falling out of them. The ease that they have is so spectacular. But what they're achieving in a sequence is so, so nuanced and so specific, which is why the whole audience will gasp at the same time, or they will all cry at the same moment. We can hear them sniffling in the audience because they've landed these macro beats in such a crafted, clever way. So special. And I think about how seamless, is that the right word? The choreography is, because it's so complex. And how it comes in, you know, what is it people say, if you have nothing more to say, you say, if you can't, you can't say you dance. And I think about how it's all this beautiful mosaic of sorts, you know, of experiences. Because I'm wondering, you know, are you, do you think I'm a director who choreographs? Or how does it compartmentalize in your mind? Or do you see it as a whole?

[15:33] Tim Jackson: I think I see it as a whole. But I would say that while I was being a choreographer, I felt like a director. And actually, that was my journey into direction, was that a lot of the directors who I was working with gave me a lot of space in the room and encouraged me to sort of voice my thoughts. And pretty much most directors at some point said to me, you know, one day you need to direct because you've got this in you. And actually, it was a wonderful director, Doug Rintle, who I was choreographing for. And he said, I, you are a director, and you know, you're a director, and you need to take the leap. And if you keep taking all these fancy choreography jobs, you're never going to do it. So you have to promise to me right here and now that the next thing that you do is direct something.

And I did, I turned down a really fancy West End choreography gig because I was listening to him, and then Two Strangers came along. So it's a really amazing thing. And I thank Doug Rintle for that, on a, thank my lucky stars that he said that to me, because you do need a nudge sometimes, especially when the choreography career was going so well. And I'd also been working a lot as a musical supervisor. And those things were really, they were giving me a lot of joy. But I think now that I'm sitting in the director's seat, it feels like it's absolutely the right place for me to be because I can call on all those different experiences. And I sort of understand those other jobs. And so it can help inform my process.

But at the same time, I really try to stay in my lane because I know what it was like to be a choreographer and sit in a room with a musical director and just let them do that while I was choreographing and vice versa. So I, but I, at least I, the nice thing for me is that I feel like if the language is needed, I can speak to someone on their terms about choreography or music or acting because I've done it myself. So that's a helpful thing.

[17:32] Jeryl Brunner: I mean, you're so exquisitely prolific. I know you're a singing coach as well. I mean, you are. So I want to know when you knew you had to be an artist. I know you went to school for it. But I'll let you tell it.

[17:47] Tim Jackson: Well, I loved music. And I loved theatre from as far back as I can remember. And my amazing parents, who were not music or theatre people, but were so supportive because they could feel like that it was a passion and a fire that was burning in me. So to try to facilitate as much as they could all the way through my childhood. I didn't think I really understood what a director or a choreographer really did. I think, so I thought the way to be involved in theatre is to be an actor, because when you're watching it as a child, you don't know what people are doing behind the scenes. So that's what I thought my North Star was, was to be an actor. But pretty much when I was, I was very lucky that I did a degree in music, first of all.

I went to Oxford, and I specialized in orchestration. And I really loved it. And I thought, Oh, I'll be a professional musician. But while I was there, I just got into the theatre scene. And some of those people who worked in theatre, who now work in theatre took me along on the journey after university, they started working professionally as directors, etc. And we'd been doing the sort of amateur shows at university. And that sort of opened up my horizons because I'd gone to drama school straight after university and was an actor. But I was lucky enough to land a West End show, I did Sunset Boulevard as my first show out of college. And so I had this regular income, which was amazing, which meant that I was able to support myself whilst doing the creative roles. So I was MDing and choreographing shows during the day, and then doing the performances at night.

[19:34] Jeryl Brunner: Who were you in Sunset Boulevard?

[19:37] Tim Jackson: Well, I was the swing, which was actually so difficult because it was an actor-musician version of the show. So I was covering seven instruments. It was like this, it was a colossal lift. But it was a really good way to learn to be humble and to get on with it because it was really hard. But it was a gorgeous production. It came from the Watermill Theatre, which is where that Sweeney Todd that came over to Broadway was, and they do lots of beautiful work with actor-musicians. Yeah. So I was swing. So I know what it's like to be sat backstage, and all of a sudden someone goes, Tim Jackson's on the stage as Manfred, and you're like, Oh, my gosh.

[20:16] Jeryl Brunner: They're playing all those tracks. Oh, my God. So you grew up outside London, right?

[20:23] Tim Jackson: Yes, on the South Coast. Yeah, in Brighton. Yeah.

[20:25] Jeryl Brunner: And what were some of the earliest shows you remember doing? Like, is there something that sticks out? Even the Backyard performance that you did?

[20:35] Tim Jackson: Yeah, our school was really good at supporting young performers. So I can really remember being Andy Lee in 42nd Street, which is the choreographer in that show. And that, for me, felt like filled me with so much joy. I love tap dancing. I'm doing the choreography on Something Rotten. I'm co-choreographing that because I love the tap. So I remember that being quite a formative show for me. And earlier than that, I mean, we were doing little school shows back when I was sort of eight, and it was my happy place. I really remember, actually, I joined a local theatre group, an amateur theatre group. I should shout them out, actually. It's Brighton Theatre Group, the youth group. I only paid two pounds a week to go.

And I was there for three hours. And it's where I felt like I met my people. And I wasn't a very popular person at school. I was a bit of a loner. And I found that quite difficult. And then all of a sudden, I went to this drama group, and I found my people. And it was so wonderful to finally feel connected. And several of those people have then carried on into the industry as well. But we were so looked after. And our leaders, Keith and Wendy, were just the most brilliant facilitators. And really, they weren't doing it for financial gain. They just wanted to enthuse these young people. So my parents found that group for me to go to. And I felt that was a real shift for me as well.

[22:05] Jeryl Brunner: You just need to be around people who get as geeky about you as you need them to be.

[22:13] Tim Jackson: You need fellow geeks, don't you?

[22:16] Jeryl Brunner: Yeah, you do. Is that how you learned to dance? Because I'm wondering how you learned.

[22:20] Tim Jackson: Yeah, I had a chorus line moment, essentially, where my sister was a dancer. And I used to go and pick her up from dance and look through the window. And then I didn't start dancing until I was 12. But I just kept going. And I really, really wanted to do it. And again, my amazing parents were like, well, if you as long as you're committing to it, and you're really passionate about it. And every time I started doing a new thing, whether it was a new instrument or a new dance, I just got so excited by it. And I was always very lucky to have teachers who were super inspiring and super energizing. And I'm a bit of a Duracell bunny. I've got a lot of energy. And so if I've got some time, I will fill it with some sort of passion, I think.

[23:13] Jeryl Brunner: Was it tap dancing first that you learned?

[23:17] Tim Jackson: I started in jazz. Yeah, I did jazz and ballet and then tap.

[23:21] Jeryl Brunner: Do you want to talk about something?

[23:22] Tim Jackson: Yes, I'd love to talk about Something Rotten. Oh, my gosh, it's the most exciting thing. So we did a concert version of it. There was an orchestra on stage of 28. And there was a choir of 20. And then there was a full cast. And we only did it for two days. But we did it at the Drury Lane Theatre, which is huge. And it went down an absolute storm. And then that's what then led to the production being done for realsies. So I mean, if I'm honest, it was definitely a concert, plus, plus, plus. I mean, there were amazing costumes. And they were by the same costume designer, Becca Brewer. And we really, we choreographed most of it. And we did it full out. But this is now the full production with a full set and a massive company of 27.

And it's just the most glorious. It's so funny. It's just, I know, you know, from having seen it, but it's just the funniest, most joyful show. But it's full of heart. Like the writers, John Kerry and Wayne are the most, they're so brilliant. And they've packed the show full of heart. So it's just my job to sort of excavate that. But we're having a real blast. We did a run through in the London Rehearsal Room on Saturday, and everyone felt very excited by it. So now we're just in Manchester doing a few press bits, final bits of tweaks, and then we're into the theatre. Yeah, so that's exciting. And we're here for five weeks in Manchester. And then the hope is that we'll be moving to the West End.

[24:55] Jeryl Brunner: Oh, that's very exciting. Can I just ask you where you were when you learned you were nominated, all those nominations?

[25:02] Tim Jackson: It was wild. I was in rehearsals for Something Rotten. And it was lunchtime because of the time difference. So I'd break for lunch. And then I checked my phone, and my heart was racing. And it wasn't for me. I just really, really wanted the show nominated. And I wanted the writers nominated. And I really, really wanted Sam and Christiane nominated because I knew they were doing the most extraordinary performances. And you just never know. And actually, I put down my phone once I saw those first few come in. And I was shaking. And I was like, yes, they've got it. They've got it. They've both got it. The writers have got it. And I actually then put my phone away. I found it a bit overwhelming to think about the director nomination.

And I wasn't sure that it would happen for me. And so I was like, I just can't deal with that moment. And the people who I was really gunning for, and I had got what they got. And so then I took myself on a walk. And then all of a sudden, my phone blew up. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I went and read it. But I was so weird about it. Honestly, I read it so slowly. I was scrolling down the page so slowly to get to the director thing. I just couldn't. I was looking at it through squinted eyes because I've been watching the Tonys on YouTube since I was a kid. And the idea that I would be part of a Dear Tony nominee is bananas to me. But I was very, very chuffed. And I was so happy that Sutra got nominated for design and Lux Pyramid got nominated for the orchestrations, which I think are genius.

And I think they're so individual to our show. He comes from the pop world. He's a pop producer. So he's brought something that's very not... it just has a different language, which I'm really excited by. So those two getting nominations as well. It was great. I mean, eight nominations. I couldn't believe it. And then I had to go back into rehearsals and pretend like nothing had happened.

[27:05] Tim Jackson: Which was, wow, I sort of walked back in. And I was like, in my head, I know something huge has just happened to our show and no one else knows. But fortunately, Nick Finlow, who's our wonderful music supervisor on Two Strangers, is also supervisor for Something Rotten. So I had someone there to share it with. And Clara Vaughan, who is the co-choreographer for Something Rotten, was the associate director in the West End. We were able to share in that joy, which is lovely.

[27:39] Jeryl Brunner: Well, that's so beautiful. So much. Congratulations. Thank you for taking the time, especially for the gift of prepping.

[27:45] Tim Jackson: No, it's lovely.

[27:57] Jeryl Brunner: Have a wonderful day.

[27:58] Tim Jackson: Thanks so much. Nice to speak. Thanks. Bye.