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[0:00] Jeryl Brunner: From Shakespeare to Schwartz, from Fossey to Alvin Haley, from San Time to Burelis, from McNally to Faye. It happened to the greats, it still happens every day. When lightning strikes is the moment you know. When lightning strikes, where you're meant to go. You can stand in Chalureka. Do whatever you like. You'll never forget the moment when lightning strikes.

[0:25] Jeryl Brunner: Hi, this is Jeryl Brunner, and you're listening to When Lightning Strikes, where we talk about the tingly, heart-stopping mic drop moments that led you to becoming an artist. Pamela Moller Kareman is the executive director of the Neighborhood Playhouse School of Theatre. Just a few of their alumni include Tony Randall, Mary Steenburgen, Robert Duvall, Jasmine Cephas Jones, Gregory Peck, Christopher Lloyd, Chris Noth, Dylan McDermott, Allison Janney, and Joanne Woodward, and on and on and on. For more than two decades, Pamela has taught the Meisner Technique in New York, and she continues to nurture generations of actors. The school just reopened their famed red doors for in-person classes in September. Welcome.

[1:22] Pamela Moller Kareman: Well, thank you.

[1:24] Jeryl Brunner: Welcome. I was getting goosebumps listening to your intro with our alumni.

[1:29] Pamela Moller Kareman: It's astonishing.

[1:30] Jeryl Brunner: It is astonishing when you hear it in a list like that. I'm so proud.

[1:34] Pamela Moller Kareman: It is astonishing, and it's astonishing that you've been the executive director since 2012.

[1:41] Jeryl Brunner: Right?

[1:41] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yes.

[1:42] Jeryl Brunner: Wow, I know. Wow. And I think about it's incredible. What Gregory Peck said: actors who came out of the Neighborhood Playhouse changed a great deal about American acting. Can you talk about that?

[1:57] Pamela Moller Kareman: Oh, sure. It's true in the sense that I think at that time when Gregory Peck was there, which was, you know, in the early days of, I think he graduated in the early 40s, mid-40s, probably. But the whole idea of what is good acting, as we know, was changing. And we had the Group Theatre come in in the 30s, and all of the great acting teachers that came out of that, one of whom, of course, was Sanford Meisner. They were on such a journey for truth, for truth in acting. Of course, they were descendants of Stanislavski, but more specific in the American quality is that, and I think it's still true today, you know, people have high expectations of authentic, truthful behavior in acting. There's no more presentational acting, there's no neck-up acting, there's no heady vocal acting.

Although you need a wonderful voice to support your instrument and be a good actor, everyone knows that we're talking about real truth. So what Gregory Peck meant, I think, and I'm sure you feel it, Jeryl, sometimes you go to a film or a play and you feel like a fly on the wall; you feel embarrassed that you're watching what you're watching because it's so pure, it's so truthful, and yet it's not remotely a documentary, it's high, high art. So many of our graduates, and today as well, that's what they're doing. They're seeking the ability to live truthfully under imaginary circumstances. Now, that was Mr. Meisner's so-called definition. People have usurped it and use it. That's fine with me because everyone knows that it's true. It's really about living truthfully. The only thing imaginary is the circumstances. The life of it is remarkably authentic. And so that's a difficult task. And I think he's right.

[3:49] Jeryl Brunner: And it's beautiful that all these decades that legacy has continued.

[3:54] Pamela Moller Kareman: Absolutely.

[3:56] Jeryl Brunner: What would you like people to know about the Neighborhood Playhouse?

[4:00] Pamela Moller Kareman: The Neighborhood Playhouse, you know, is often the students who come out of there, myself included, a thousand years ago, say it best. But yeah, one student recently, his name is actually Ian Duff. He's a wonderfully talented graduate. He graduated five years ago, possibly six, but I think five. And I once asked him, and he said, "The Neighborhood Playhouse, you have to experience the Neighborhood Playhouse to—it just is." And once you walk in there, you become a part of it. And I think what he meant by that is an enormous community, a commitment to training and high art, really. And it is a very special place. There's lots of conservatories; they all are wonderful. We're training young actors; we want to continue to do that.

But the Playhouse has always had a really kind of solid community, homely feeling. You mentioned the red doors. They're still there. They're new ones now because we have been renovating, and they're gorgeous, but they're red, and you walk through them and you're in a world where it's acceptable to work really hard on becoming an actor. The rest of the world doesn't really always support that. Sometimes your parents or your friends or relatives say, "What? What do you want to be? What are you gonna be? Huh? How are you gonna make a living?" You walk in the door here, and we celebrate that that's who you are and what you want to be. So what I want people to know is it's very serious; it's for very serious-minded people.

It's also very joyful because there's great joy in hard work. We all know that. You know it every day. And that it is a community, a warm community. You mentioned Gregory Peck, you know, and many other of our illustrious grads. You become part of that legacy in that family, and you get to stand on the same stage where Diane Keaton did her first scene, and you're gonna do your first scene. So there's something pretty cool about that, and welcoming, very welcoming. And I love the full circleness of it because you're the love of love from there.

[6:00] Jeryl Brunner: So can you talk about your lightning strikes moment? What led you to becoming an artist?

[6:06] Pamela Moller Kareman: You know, I thought when I knew the interview was coming up, and I love your title. I love it, and I love it in my position now as executive director because it's so great for students and would-be wannabe young seekers of acting to realize everyone who they admire and look at had a beginning, had a lightning strike, gave themselves permission to be this person who they are. And it may have been a hard hit or it may have been a soft hit, but lightning strikes was so great, and I spent a lot of time thinking about it. In my case, I think I was always as a youngster seeking, and it was like water finding a crack in rock or something. I would find places through and say and kind of go, "Oh, wait a minute."

I was really fortunate to grow up in a teeny tiny town in Long Island, a place called Remsenburg, which is a funny little burg. It's right near the Hamptons, and I would live there all year round. So in the wintertime, there are about 300 people there. In the summertime, there was a huge explosion of summer people. But many of the people who lived there, unbeknownst to me, were kind of creatives. PG Wodehouse, the fabulous creator of Jeeves, lived down the road. He would walk his dogs; he's a great lover of dogs. And you probably know that he gave all the money to begin and to continue the By the Way, and dog rescue shelters were all because of him. I love the term—I'm getting off now, but By the Way, I didn't know what that meant.

I remember saying to my mother, "Why is it called By the Way?" And she knew nothing, no reason that she would know, and she wasn't English, and she said, "Oh, it's a place where dogs stay." And then I looked it up somehow, and it means "stay a while." I just went, "Oh my goodness." So I would see him walking his dogs and knew he was cuckoo and creative and different than my parents and my family, and I was so attracted. Certainly didn't talk to him or anything. So then I got a job when I got old enough. I got a job as a nanny for these summer people who would come in, and I was a great—I was a perfect young teenage nanny. I got a job with a family who were delightful; they had lovely little girls, and I worked for them a lot, like five days a week while they enjoyed the summer.

The grandmother of the family was a director of Italian-speaking theater. The grandfather, who was deceased when I met them, had been the librarian, or at least he was in charge of the music at Radio City Music Hall. These jobs just fascinated me. Again, I was a little crack into a world that I had no idea why I wanted to be in it, but I certainly did. I wanted to find out more of how, wow, there's another life out there where people create and do these interesting things. You know, you didn't have the internet. I didn't have theater per se, very little movies. But I think what you started earlier when we were talking about instincts and impulses in the intro—yeah, I had that. I was seeking something; I was seeking self-expression, probably.

So these lovely people introduced me to this family. They brought me to the theater. I saw dance companies. But here's the fun—the real, the sort of lightning, the storm was brewing and the lightning was coming, and it keeps on coming. But one of my friends' fathers, and they were again summer people, and I was not; I lived there all the time. His father was the chairman of the board of Pepsi Cola. Now you might say, "Okay, what's that have to do with it?" His name was Herb Barnett, a lovely guy, and one of the board members of Pepsi Cola was Joan Crawford. Now, people don't realize this, but Joan—yes, remember she was married to Mr. Steele, her husband for a brief time, and he was a big mucky muck at Pepsi.

When he died, she joined the board and refused to get off the board, is the story, but she joined the board. There's that scene in—I don't know—at the head of the conference table. Herb Barnett, who took a liking to me, wanted me to follow my dreams and find out more about being in the theater. He said, "I'm gonna set up a phone call with you and Joan." And I was like, you know, 18 years old. I said, "Joan Crawford?" And he said, "Yes, I want her to talk to you." And so Joan—I'm laughing—it was very endearing and wonderful. It definitely was lightning strikes in the sense that I was speaking to an expert. Again, I didn't—Mommy Dearest had not been out yet, but whatever happened to Baby Jane had—I don't know.

She was not to me as a youngster at the time; I was like, "Wow, this is a formidable gal." Anyway, she called me. Her assistant called; my mother answered the phone and said, "Joan Crawford's on the phone for you." And she began to tell me how very difficult this is. "Don't think this is glamorous. If you really want to be an actress, you need to work really hard. You need to understand you're gonna get up at five in the morning." I mean, she was making a list like I was joining the army, and I still found myself excited. I wasn't getting turned off at all; I was getting thrilled. And then she said, "You have to go to the Neighborhood Playhouse. That's the only place to go, and I'm gonna call Sanford Meisner and make an appointment for you."

[11:43] Pamela Moller Kareman: So, wow. Yeah, I was in the right place at the right time, right people, supportive people. So that was a huge moment for me. My parents wanted me to go to college, of course, as all parents do, and I went for one semester and then begged out. I said, "Please, please can I follow what Miss Crawford had in mind?" And I went to meet Mr. Meisner, and then lightning really struck for me in that I had never met a bona fide artist and sat down in conversation. He took a great interest in me in a way that I found astonishing. I felt like we were speaking a language that even though I'd never studied it, I seemed to know it very well. And I'm sure you can relate to that. Suddenly I was with the right tribe, and I was very excited.

So that was all the water seeking through the rocks and the lovely people I met, and there I was in his office. And then to jump ahead a little bit, the wild thing is that when I graduated from the Neighborhood Playhouse, I must have written him a note of thanks. I don't recall that, but I must have. Because not long ago, maybe six or seven years ago, I found a letter from him that was an answer to my letter. So obviously, I'd thanked him, and he was writing a note. And I was now, when I found this, the executive director of the Neighborhood Playhouse, who would have thought it was just crazy. In the letter, he said, "Now comes the future. May it bring you a happy and fulfilling career." And I looked at that and I thought, "I'm sitting in your office." And the future has come and gone and come and gone, as you know, you live long enough. There's a lot of futures, and they come and go.

[13:33] Pamela Moller Kareman: And uh, so something really uh, you know, the lightning that struck along the way. The Neighborhood Playhouse was really a serious home for me. And to be back again in this position is just right for me. I think, you know, just pretty uh I'm committed and passionate about everything that goes on there. And I I uh I'm just thrilled that it's all that I'm there still and that we're opening after the pandemic, as you say, you know. So that's a long strike, but there but this there was the lightning of being an artist and finding that people do do this and how do you do it, and then uh the lightning along the way until finally meeting, walking in those red doors myself and and not knowing ever that I would be there again in my at this age, but thank goodness.

[14:19] Jeryl Brunner: What a beautiful confluence of events, dare I say Ms. Crawford recommending you to Sandy Meisner and then him taking you on. I love all those pieces. Can you put into words? Is it hard to articulate what it was when you were sitting in his office that made you think this is my tribe? Was there something he said or did, or what was it about that experience, that first moment?

[14:48] Pamela Moller Kareman: Great question, great question. There was a depth to it that I didn't find in life. I'm not sure what your life was like as a youngster, but uh there was a depth to the conversation about why I wanted to do what did I think, what were my expectations. They weren't black and white answers, there was a conversation about the meaning of art in the world and and my and how I how I saw myself. And and I I was not intimidated or inhibited. I found myself suddenly answering, you know, he was so um he was serious, he was he was debonair, he had a lovely sense of humor. And I think the fact that uh that we were talking about art as and and he was including me in it, you know, that that was that was he he wasn't he tree he I think what he felt was if you're sitting here and you're seeking this, you are this you know, why would you be here?

Uh, and I I suddenly that that struck me that I I think I am, and I think he recognized it. Um, so that that moved me. And I left flying flying on air, but I I mean, again, don't you think you could you actors are born, we know that, and then they're either nurtured or not. And many, many people, it doesn't, you know, uh, because I interview people as you do, I interview young people who want to come, and they all say this is the most comfortable I am. The facade isn't working, you know. I think in life we have a facade, and we keep it up, and we oh, lovely day, nice hair. How are you? Nice as it is a kind of thing, and and actors and artists, I think want a deeper connection to you know, what does it mean to be here and be human and answer these questions through art? And uh, I know I certainly had that and didn't know I did, but he he struck a chord with me by asking me these questions, and I will wow, I think I know the answers.

[16:48] Jeryl Brunner: What was that like for you going through the program?

[16:52] Pamela Moller Kareman: I had been uh a loner and self-conscious. Uh, I hadn't, I I came from a little bit of a dysfunctional family, and I I'm sure many artists and many people you interview do. Uh there, and there was uh, so my imagination was you know, my best friend, and I and that little teeny town again that I refer to. I I uh you know, got on my bike and there were in this in the winter time, you know, you could ride down the middle of the street, you know, and be alone with your and in my case imagination, not really thoughts, imagination, let it run wild, uh, and just stories and the people that I would meet, and I would make up stories about them and so on. So when I got to the Playhouse, and people wanted that part of me, they wanted to nurture that part of me, my imagination and my creativity.

It was like, again, I keep using this word and I mean it, sort of being home and being valued. So what I learned there about authenticity, and I and I will say Meisner, as I said, was a bona fide artist. I I really knew that. Uh, and he was one of the most authentic people I met. He, you know, he really was who he was. Like that was that felt good, like meat and potatoes way. This is it, you know what I mean? There's no need for a facade or a uh and um so once when you when I left there, or when I studied there and got more and more free, you know, you become really free when you become unself-conscious. Your artistic self starts guiding you, and your impulses and your instincts, you you trust them and follow them as opposed to suppressing them and hiding them, and you know what I mean, which I think in in my family had been the case.

I mean, there there was again, not to emphasize overemphasize this long time ago, and they everyone did the best they could, but it's pretty wacky family, and nobody was particularly interested in in art uh or in anything that would anything expressive, really. You didn't express a lot of secrets, you know, a lot of quiet, don't talk about it things. So here you could, and and and he uh, you know, he and all the other teachers. I mean, Mary Steenburgen recently, she's a good friend of mine. She was in my my era there, she was a class behind me. We're still great friends, and she said, you know, you could never go on this journey that we've all been on alone. It's the teachers and the community, and that was it.

Yeah, that the the it was a profound experience for me, and I think it is for many, many people who come through the doors. And it and it's and it was a very necessary one for me. I would have probably, yeah, I'm sure I would have, I don't know what I would have done. So I I hate to sound so dramatic, but there's a truth to it. In finding your true self and and admitting it, standing tall and saying, Yes, I'm this. I I think I'm an artist. That was a pretentious phrase where I came from. People didn't want to hear it. People didn't want to hear it.

[19:46] Jeryl Brunner: How incredible that you you were able to step out of your comfort zone or from what you knew and say, I'm an artist. And yet you became a very prolific director as well. And you are a very prolific director. How did that happen? How did you get into directing?

[20:05] Pamela Moller Kareman: I was again very fortunate in the people that I met and the things that I did. I had um I had a relationship, a nice relationship with Michael Wilding, who happens to be Elizabeth Taylor's son, and his lovely wife Brooke Palance, and we worked together a little bit, and they they um then we we had a lot of great talks and meetings, and we decided to form a company here in New York when we were young, and it was called Acorn Productions, and we started to do plays, and I was still acting in the men, and we were hiring directors and producing and um really terrific, you know, hard work, you know, nose to the grindstone artist, and and they both were hungry for that as well. And during that time, um, I started thinking more seriously about directing.

I really somebody said to me, you know, you I got I got fired once from a really crummy little off off off thing, and somebody said, Yeah, because you talk too much and you're ahead of the game, you're ahead of the director. Maybe you should direct. And I was like, that's I want to be an actress, and then I realized, no, I actually am a director. And I want to jump back for a second. Before Acorn, I um when I first got out of school, uh, again, Mary Steenburgen, who was a dear friend, she and I started a comedy group. And the comedy group was an improv comedy, and I, you know, improv comedy right at the same time as as uh Saturday Night Live was being born, you know. And we would we had a great time.

We had three other graduates from the school, and we started working in, and I was the director, and uh, and we all wrote things, and we started working for the Bureau of Alcoholism, believe it or not, and we worked at halfway houses to entertain people at you know who were uh trying to get sober. So the audiences were you know somewhat appreciative and some it was wild. And um, so that's when I really started taking the helm of directing. And with Acorn, when we started doing plays, did it more, and then another very fortunate thing is that a lovely woman uh who named Leandra Pope in in Westchester, who owned and bought an old schoolhouse, decided she saw one of our shows uh of Acorn, and I forget exactly when she said, I want to bring theater to my schoolhouse, I want to make a theater out of my schoolhouse.

And lo and behold, we brought uh a play up there. It was Brooke and Michael were in it. It was bedroom farce, actually. Bedroom farce was the first play we did up there, and um, and I was in it. I didn't direct it, I acted in it. But my relationship with her grew, and uh, I have I spent over 20 years creating uh wonderful equity theater with Leandra Pope as the producer owner. She was she was more than that. She was like a benefactor, really, for me. She just loved and and nurtured my directing talent, and uh I made the op the opposite commute for a long time, driving up from New York, and we created a wonderful, wonderful theater. The New York Times loved us and said terrific things. And uh I just got my skills.

[23:07] Jeryl Brunner: Yeah, that was the schoolhouse theater.

[23:09] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yeah.

[23:10] Jeryl Brunner: And also the uh cabaret, uh the the improv troupe. Was that with them in the Hatton Theater?

[23:16] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yes, we're back with Mary with Mary St. Burchant, uh, where she was discovered, I mean, big time discovered. But uh, we did a we did lunchtime theater at St. Peter's Theater at the St. Peter's Theater, which is still there on 54th Street. Then they had a little lunchtime thing. They loved us, they had us in there. People would bring a brown bag and watch improv. And again, you this is early 70s, and when all that was starting to happen, so different. And uh they came from Manhattan Theater Club people came, Lynn Meadow and uh they said, Do you want to come? We want you to be the resident cabaret company at the and they were on 73rd Street in those days between first and second in an old uh an old building where a Mason Union building.

This is way when they were first starting. So we were there on the week, like Thursday, Friday, Saturday night in their cabaret. So you'd go see, and in those, I mean they did Crimes of the Heart was done there, and then come over and see us. Uh, and and and we were great, we were funny, and we were all like, you know, improvising and and and creating this wacky world. Yeah, I forgot that I didn't forget it, but there you go. That was Crack Tokens, and that was uh the beginning again of me. I really did so. Then I pulled away from the performing once cracked tokens, and then I just directed, and I um I've just been so fortunate and and I I love it. I really do love it, and I never think back about acting anymore. I think I died. This is making me nervous enough to even talk with you. It's I want to be back behind the scenes.

[24:43] Jeryl Brunner: What does directing give you? You said you love to talk. I mean, what how does it fulfill you as an artist?

[24:51] Pamela Moller Kareman: Oh, so much. You know, when you have when you read a play that you have a feel for, and it and it just flows over you in that way that I mean actors do the same thing, but in a different way, because they're usually just reading their part, you know. Uh I I love I love interpreting the what's written, and I love making, I love working hard to make sure I am. I I really my you know, one of my great philosophies about directing is I'm not imposing myself, I'm exposing and creating this play. I don't, I don't, I'm not trying to make it, you know, my yes, of course, my vision, but not at the expense of the artist who wrote this and who and and I love collaborating with that script, whether you know, not I may not meet the author per se, but the script give it feeds me, and then to to guide the actors and help everybody be in the same play.

Now, this may make this may make sense to you, and I bet it does because you're a big theater lover. Sometimes you go to a play, and everyone's wonderful, but they're sort of in a each one in a different play. There's there's something happening, or the other thing I often see are they all playing versions of the same part. Do you know what I mean? I really I really want, I really love to help people strengthen their point of view and understand that they're you know that they are very different characters in this in this play, and that this play is not it's it's not their life or what they want to do, or what they it's and yes, you are working from your instincts, but you're working off the author, and you are bringing yourself to this because it was written to be acted.

If it wasn't, we could all sit down and read it and have a discussion. That's not the case. So taking it off the page, they often they they need guidance, not so much, you have to stay out of the way, but some. And then we all get to make this fantastic when you hold a play in your hand from dramatist play service or Samuel French or whatever, and then you're looking at it. There comes a day quite quite quickly in rehearsal where you put it, you don't need that. It's and then you watch the play you just created with these other wonderful people, lighting designer, costume designer, everyone, and like it didn't exist a couple of weeks ago.

[27:06] Pamela Moller Kareman: It was a piece of paper. I find it thrilling, thrilling. Isn't that magical? Yes. Matt, you see, magical world, a world where it wasn't. It wasn't. There was no one here last night, you know. Yeah, it was a ghost lighter. And I love that you directed for um 50 Lile's 50 Lights. Yeah, I had a great time there a couple of times. A couple of times. I did a great play called Brownsville Bread, which is a one-woman show. Uh, and uh yes, that's a beautiful theater. That's a nice director's theater. It's so well kept and clean, and everything works, and the dressing rooms are great. The actors are well cared for. Uh and then I did the clearing there a number of years ago. Uh for the first few years at the Neighborhood Playhouse, I was still running the schoolhouse.

I felt I could do both, and I was gonna do it, and I it's okay. And I was all day at the school, get in the car and all evening at the theater. And eventually um, I did that for about two and a half years, and then the school took over for me. Uh, mainly because I really saw my mission. I I I did go home again and say that I don't I will direct, yes, and I did direct the clearing and I I get offers sometimes, but my commitment to the school just grew and grew and my commitment to young artists and uh became more important to me than directing outside of there. So that just happened. Uh but yeah, yeah, the 509 is 59th Street, wonderful, wonderful theater. Yeah, profit. Yeah. How did you get back to the Neighborhood Playhouse? Can you take me there when you went from Scholastic?

[28:40] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yeah, to go into the Neighborhood Playhouse, coming back home. Yeah, well, I used to as you know, I felt a um an obligation to give back. So when I was running the schoolhouse theater in Westchester, which again, you know, it was a really lovely little equity house, and people, you know, we were very fortunate because you could be home in 50 minutes, and we could get people to come on up there and do a play and be home for you know at by 11 o'clock. So it it was a fun job for them for actors, and I was able to entice people to come on up. Um but I would always call the playhouse and use, you know, if I needed a young actor, I'd want to audition them. I often helped people get their equity card by being a stage manager for me.

Uh I just knew that when I had been a student, I I wish there'd been a little more help in that regard. And now as the executive director, I do a lot of it, really, really help people get started in their career. I and I um but I did that, and so they were, you know, they were always coming up and helping, and you know, at least a couple of times a year I'd use a playhouse person. And then I, you know, and I gave back, I get, you know, I stayed in touch. I came to see the showcases of the end of the year.

[29:47] Pamela Moller Kareman: Um, and then, of course, you lose, you know, you lose, and then um uh I I Heather Randall, who we all know and love, uh I'm sure you know Heather, Tony Randall's uh widow, married to Tony Randall, one of our most illustrious grads. She and I worked on a benefit for the school. I believe it was the I want to say 75th birthday of the school. And it was at Tavern on the Green and all. So I was brought in the fold that way. And I so loved working with the board and with her and uh and helping to sell those tickets and celebrate the school. That was my first real active come on back instead of just send a check once in a while or meet a student for and you know, or help a student. I said, boy. So I got very interested in that. And and uh and Heather was very influential for bringing me on board. She's a great, she puts the right people in the right place often, and it helps introduce a lot of people to other people and so on.

[30:44] Pamela Moller Kareman: So that started to happen. And I was invited to be on the board of directors, uh, which I felt was an honor, and and uh really tried to be an active member. And and then on it, you know, it just it again like the water seeking the crack, and it just kept happening. And I said, Wow, this well, this is right. This feels right, this feels terrific. And uh, and of course, I was getting older myself. I didn't want to go out of town and didn't want to, you know, to seek a directing career away from the schoolhouse, would have meant also willing to go out of. So I don't know, things all all um happened, and I I it wasn't something that um I ever would have said to you 30 years ago, this is where I would be, because I thought you went there for a while and then you left.

I I I now understand how uh life works sometimes, but you said it's so great the bring bringing back around and the giving back. I mean, I'm old enough, believe me, to understand we all have to do that, and and I love it. It feels so um wonderful to mentor these these actors you know and and on their way and and at the Neighborhood Playhouse now with I have done a lot to uh what I said before you know bringing people back to the career we have career development class we had we introduce we bring in a lot of people not only not only graduates many more people to talk about what it you know this business to talk about getting started in the old days that was really anathema you weren't you weren't allowed to it was kind of now it seems crazy but they were so pure about the lab the work and I don't say that slightly that it was serious work the art of it but you weren't allowed to bring into the same room anything about an agent or a manager or an audition that that was and and and you have to you have to help these young people and you have to help them get a foot in the door and understand it and be the president of their own company because that's who they are you know that it's like yeah the the run their LLC and and make it happen.

[32:42] Pamela Moller Kareman: So yeah I'm really good I'm really uh proud of that because it and it's helped the students there's a lot of buzz about help you know that Sandy Faison who you may know Sandy Faison's a Broadway actress she she created the role of Grace Farrell in Annie in the original she's a wonderful uh wonderful actress who who she teaches for me and and uh but she ran the acting department at LaGuardia High School the fame high school for many years about 15 years and again she decided in her 50s I think to uh go back and she wasn't gonna act anymore. She wanted to go to school as an educator. Anyway, long story. She ended up at LaGuardia, which was wonderful for them. And then I, you know, I kind of pulled her away and brought her back to the Playhouse a few years ago, where she just does a great job because she's a fabulous liaison to the business.

She is a wonderful uh she knows everyone and every and everyone you mentioned her name too, knows and loves her. And so there's a lot of, she's really opened the door and brings people over to talk to the students and brings her expertise uh in musical theater and all and all things all things to do with acting and art.

[33:54] Pamela Moller Kareman: So it's a great, she's a great addition and has helped me a lot. And again, we were dear friends when we were 20 years old. Uh, you know, and here we all are. It's wild. How but in 2012, right? When you took over as artistic director, how did that happen I mean, were you working at the Neighborhood Playhouse and then you were?

[34:13] Pamela Moller Kareman: No, I was I was I was working hard at the schoolhouse still and I was and I was being a director and I was doing a lot of cool things. Uh I actually went to Ireland to do some research on a on a play and a writer that we thought we'd bring over and we didn't. And I was it was in a very thoughtful, interesting place. And then the my predecessor, Harold Baldridge, was who was the executive director for a very long time, um, on the board, you know, it was clear that Harold, it was time for Harold to begin to think about retiring. And um we on the board were seeking and looking gently, as was you know, as everyone was about what will happen next. And um, you know, I'm not a big one on on that it should all be an insider job.

I mean, and I think that we're going through now, so with with all of this opening the doors and realizing we have so much work to do in terms of equity and and diversity, and uh but it wasn't like they just pointed and clicked and stayed. It was that the Playhouse was in a particular position where someone coming on board to run it would have to really know it well at this point because we were we were, you know, the we were not our reputation, it had it hadn't in any way soiled, it had just become quieter. People didn't really know we whether we were there, we weren't there as much. You know, things had been a little bit um not as not aggressive, is not not the right word. We just they there wasn't as much word on the street about the school uh as there needed to be, and competition had really flared up.

There's a lot of schools, conservatories, a lot of people putting putting plaques on the window and being acting teachers. Academia had really taken over, enormous number of colleges were, you know, in my day that wasn't true, you know.

[35:57] Pamela Moller Kareman: There wasn't you can you went to the Neighborhood or Juilliard, and that was it. And one was kind of high-end Shakespeare, and one was Meat and Potatoes, New York acting, and then you know, so they were very different and and also both very good. So anyway, uh we started examining, we we talked to a number of people that, and then it it sort of just became um I that I would I would run it transitionally, perhaps. That that because I had these skills and I had run a theater and I and I was so passionate about the school, uh, it seemed right, a good match for Harold to be able to retire and me to um do this transitional taking over. And uh, and I was the first woman to run the school since 1964.

Uh I was yeah, uh there had been no female Meisner acting teachers, not and I'm not proud of it, but it's worth saying they weren't. There were only men teaching the work. I've brought on uh three women in my time here and trained, you know. So they it was time for it was time for change, but it was also time for transition into the change. And I was the right person to drive that bus for a while, and it turned into you know, eight and a half years now or nine years, and uh, and I clearly was the it was the right person at the right time.

[37:17] Pamela Moller Kareman: And again, there's that water seeking the through the crack, and here I am, you know. But I never would have thought, even when that when uh when I was named the executive director, uh I think we all thought it would be for a few years, it would be let and then we'll and and there's nobody there's no reason now. I mean, it's become my life's work in a big way, and we're doing this renovation, which I know you know a little bit about, just fantastic. You know, we're we're making the building on uh be as as be the the right the right home, and and it should be in as good condition as the art that's going on with inside. It it hadn't been that, it really had needed some real long overdue repairs that hadn't happened before I came on board.

And I I I knew we have to we have to bring this building up to the deserving quality the artists inside, you know, do deserve. So that was another reason why it had to be someone who understood the history a little bit and how we gonna get from there to here.

[38:22] Pamela Moller Kareman: So, yeah, right, you know, all sort of again. This word magical, you and I, it's it is it's this who you know, it's wonderful when you can say that your life feels right. How did you meet Michael Wilding?

[38:36] Pamela Moller Kareman: Uh how did that happen? Uh he was a serious actor. We were in a class together. I forget which class, we were, I think it was like a monologue class or something. And then he studied more. My husband Fred Carriman was an acting teacher. He was partners with Wynne Hanman at um at they had a studio in Carnegie Hall. And Wynn and I were partners after my husband died. Sadly, uh when Wynne was a um a graduate of the Playhouse and a teacher at the Playhouse for many, many years with Mr. Meisner. So I think it was then when we first met that he was in, he was in class there in Carnegie Hall. And uh and his lovely wife, Brooke, who's still a dear friend today. Uh there they live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, or right outside of Santa Fe.

They don't they don't pursue uh acting anymore. Michael's a fantastic sculptor, believe it or not. Really cool, big, exciting sculpt sculptures where he wears like goggles and uses a uses a tool, and it they're cool. He's a very, very lovely guy. And I I see them like once or twice a year when they come to New York. Unfortunately, I've never been there. They and I should go because they're but yeah, yeah. You meet a lot of people, don't you, Gerald, when you're here and you're open-hearted, and then you and then you go and you and you people you'd never thought you'd dine with or share a break bread with, and then and uh it's a I find that this again back to our word tribe.

[40:04] Pamela Moller Kareman: It's uh it's remarkable. You're having an open house, right? At the Neighborhood Playhouse, right?

[40:11] Pamela Moller Kareman: Uh a reading for the remote. Oh, we're having a reading. This is a cool thing. Yeah, I do. Yes, because we um made it through the pandemic, we did these enormous unnecessary repairs and renovations, of which there are many more to do. You know, this is sort of phase one of what has to happen at the school. There's needs to be physical improvements, and there needs to be money raised. Um but uh we took the time, you know. Once I saw that the pandemic that we were gonna be closed more than the two weeks we all thought we were gonna be closed, I started thinking about how to use the time best in regards to that.

[40:42] Pamela Moller Kareman: That we're not gonna be there, we're not gonna have classes, they'll be online. How what should we do? And we started, I you know, my very supportive board, unbelievable, they say yes a lot too, and they're just I'm so thankful, agreed with me. And um we decided to go ahead with the renovations. So they're complete now. We're open the doors, the students are back in person. They just were there last Monday, the 13th was the first day. All is going remarkably well. So I said, we need to have a celebration of this. And what would be, you know, and I started thinking about who we really are. It's a lot like your question with lightning strikes. This was kind of a lightning strikes thing too. Sanford Meisner directed Waiting for Lefty on Broadway in 1935.

He co-directed it with Clifford Odets, but he was, you know, the real arm of the direct. And that was the Group Theater, you know, they just became a force. And so I thought, okay, and well, I'm trying very hard to welcome more diverse people to the feast, to the table, both as teachers and as students and reaching out and having very serious conversations with people who are helping us in this and facing our past, which you know was a man's club, uh, you know, for years, a men's club, a white men's club, let's face it, in a way that um, that there are a lot of places where uh so we've knocked down some walls, we have serious conversations and Waiting for Lefty, directed by Meisner is open to very great diversity in the casting of it from our students and our community so I said let's do this play it's only a reading we can't produce it per se because we're not ready yet the build you know we're just right back into the building we can't ever so we invited some really wonderful graduates uh Matt McCoy he's a terrific actor works all the time in Los Angeles he's willing to come he's reading a role we're so thrilled younger people who've been on television lately and are coming uh coming up uh you know just I said this is the play because it has 22 people in it I think and and some of them are very small non-speaking union members and so on great chance for our student actors who recent graduates to jump on board so we're so happy we're having this event on Monday it's a little it's a it come in have a little snack um all very very COVID you know protocols wear your mask etc um the theater seats uh in about a hundred people we're not gonna have more than probably 45 in the audience um and then read this wonderful play that's only an hour and 10 minutes long and toast us again at the end and just a passage for well all that we've all been through you know all of us I mean not just the Playhouse but I wanted I said we gotta do and do it our way I mean to me Lefty was a was perfect we don't need to go find some new play we don't need to invent anything we just went back and I thought you know what Mr. Meisner directed this. Wow. You know, let's bring that to the front and and do the kind of really back to what you and I said earlier that authentic, wonderful, serious acting, you know.

[44:02] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yes, it's a reading, but believe me, they're gonna blow the roof off the place, I'm sure of it, in the excitement. And the play is uh it's such an apropos play because it's all about change. Yeah, and it's all about injustice. And injustice. Yeah, and a lot of you know, a lot of uh wages and strike striking for better wages, and one can't help but think about Amazon and you know, should they be a lot unionize and all that? Those things are always there, but you now we're we're not gonna just keep on taking them for granted and say, oh yeah, that's the way it is. No, it isn't, and it shouldn't be. I'm not over I really am not a hugely political person. I I certainly don't know, but and I don't want to use the school for that platform, but the high the art that's involved, you know, and and the voices that we can be heard, yeah, it's it's meaningful.

It's back to that word, yeah. Yeah, well, it's about humanity and stepping into yourself. Yeah. I you know, if I may say that about taking a risk in your life. Great phrase. Great, yeah. Taking a risk, exactly. And and uh I don't think I took enough, truthfully, as an old salty dog now. I sometimes look back and think I didn't take enough risks. Uh I'm not I'm not criticizing myself, but sometimes you were, you know, I wasn't bold enough. But the older you get, be bold. This is a bold move on the Playhouse to put the money into the renovation at a time when nobody even knows, you know, yes, some Broadway shows are opening, please God keep it going. But you know, we're still all in the midst of this, and I say to the future, to the future.

I'm not Pollyanna, you know, about it, but there will always be room for artists and actors. There will always be a need for people to tell stories and and to help us all understand all this. And in fact, I tell the young students all the time. I mean, this is can you imagine the what they've lived through? You know, these people who were, yeah, they're gonna they're gonna have stories to tell. You know, we've lived through it, but they're they're right on the cusp of their lives, and they're told to stay home for 18 months and sit in a room and be online. And so all these things are gonna story, great stories are gonna be told about it. So we're starting up, and I think the celebration on the 20th of the Waiting for Lefty will be such a great shot in the arm.

And it's a huge not to forget what it also mainly is is a huge thank you to the people who made it possible. They they did say yes to me and they did uh raise money, and um, you know, it's just it's just another gift, another gift. I want to celebrate them.

[46:44] Jeryl Brunner: It's beautiful. I just want to go back with uh people might not realize that the Neighborhood Playhouse is really a conservatory. You can't just take one class or two classes, right? Talk about that.

[46:57] Pamela Moller Kareman: Sure. Yeah, um, it's you know, I I think with anything, there are a lot of people who who do sometimes want to dabble or wonder or they're they're attracted to the idea of acting, or they have a cousin and they think it's fun. And I and I'm all for that that you can go take a class here and there and get your feet wet and enjoy it. But we all know if you really want to do this with your life, if you want to commit to the world of art and be an actor professionally, um, like anything else, you know, you need you need a foundation. You need to know how to work. You need to be willing to work hard on your instrument. And again, your instrument is you, you know. Uh, and and it's like a piano not tuned up.

You have to be enormously tuned up, and you have to work hard to get into the best shape as an artist you can get. And I think that you know, Mr. Meisner used to say it takes 20 years to make an actor. And and uh, and what he meant by that was you know, you can be here for two, and then you have to go work for 18 more before, and one day you're gonna have a light bulb or lightning strikes moment, and when you realize, oh, this is what he was talking about, but you have to work and so on. And uh, so we try to accomplish a lot in the two years, and I can't imagine doing it in less. But there is a difference between um you know enjoying it and wanting to do things like community theater or working in your local theater club or and saying, I want to do this with my life, I want the profession, I want to dig deep, and I want to bring myself to the work, and that has you have to then a conservatory uh is very different than a class here or there.

And I would the task of putting the classes together and choosing, picking and choosing what you might take, that's very difficult. And then and then you're not with like-minded people, and you're another great thing about going to a conservatory is you're in your you're in your ensemble, you know, you're actually creating a world of that will become your network, you know, um, of people that you'll know and and people that you will help come along and you will share and collaborate, and so there's a lot of reasons to throw yourself in and fully study, and uh so beneficial if this is what you want to do, actually make a career of it. And it's really hard, everybody will say, to make money at this quote unquote, but it isn't hard to make a living, you know.

And I don't think enough people remind the younger actors who want to do this. You can make a living. You won't have two cars in the garage and a swimming pool, perhaps, but you can put bread on the table for your family in this world. I mean, I spent a lot of time doing uh looping work on films, for instance, when I first got out. Um, and I would be the the voice of you know, the actor was now uh the star was now in a different job, but they needed one line or one word in the bar scene and all, I'm sure you know what looping is. And I thought this is a great gig. Put the headphones on and fill in. And and I thought, wow, I'd rather do this than uh be a be working in a dentist office. I'm doing my thing, maybe you know what I mean?

So there's a lot of um reason to encourage people to stay with it and find a way through. I mean, you are look at this. This is the coolest platform for young people to listen to and realize it is, and your questions are so worthy, like for people to think about.

[50:15] Jeryl Brunner: Thank you. How do you see the school transforming in the next couple of years, five years, 10 years? What's your vision or fantasy?

[50:25] Pamela Moller Kareman: Yeah, my vision is that we can hold on tight, doing what we've always done so well, that the acting and the art within the building stays as solid and pure as it is. And and uh even though the platforms in the world that we might be doing now more, you might be doing television, you might be doing you know, film commercials, web series, these these ways that the product might get to the audience have changed, but the training has not. Do you know what I mean? You still really need to be a fantastically rooted and and uh facile actor in order to do anything that you um get hired to do out there. And and at a place at our school at the Neighborhood Playhouse, you you will be able to bring yourself to any text anyone gives you, even if it's playing on the moon and and satellite, you know what I mean?

The work is still the work and and not to forget that. Um so that I want to preserve and protect. I want to invite more people and work very hard to open the doors wider and to have a more diverse uh population and and hear more voices, so that I mean the Meisner technique remains the Meisner technique, which is extraordinary, but as it's interpreted by different people, men, women, uh fluid, gender people uh of all colors, people of all nations, they bring themselves to it. And so it doesn't change, literally change, but but of course the interpretation will, and we'll all be better for it. So I want that to happen. I want to see, I want to welcome and and seek out uh help people come here financially.

I want to have I really want to build a base of more support so that more people can come uh and may not have the means to come. Also may not have the means, you know, we have a junior school on Saturdays, and you know, we're we talk a lot about how to get how are we gonna get just like you and I know. I mean, if when I was young and and I was able to know things and see be told things or you know, read Jeeves and see PG Woodhouse, that's not always available to everyone. You know, how do we help people, uh young people find their creativity and find their voice? And I think the Playhouse should have and will have a stronger ability to do that, you know, even though we're the two-year conservatory, we do have, I think, an obligation to help younger people as well get to the arts and find us, you know, and find places like us.

I want very much for the building to continue to be improved and to be the little gem that it should be. I don't want to expand. I don't see us expanding enormously. I think the work is too unique and personal to get gigantic. We don't want to be a big university. We don't want to have buy another building. We just want to sustain the work in this building. And uh, and I I feel an obligation for the Playhouse to preserve the legacy. We'll also be ready, willing, and able to make necessary changes as the world changes and be flexible and and realize what a what a magnificent past we've had, and we will have a better future. I know it.

[53:36] Jeryl Brunner: Well, Pamela, it's such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much.

[53:40] Pamela Moller Kareman: Oh, it was an honor. I so enjoyed it. I feel like we really met one another. That was so much fun and interesting.

[53:46] Jeryl Brunner: Thank you so much, Pamela.

[53:48] Pamela Moller Kareman: It still happens every day. With lightning strike, it's the moment you know.

[53:54] Jeryl Brunner: The theme song was written by Tom McGovern.

[53:57] Jeryl Brunner: This episode was edited by Kyle Moore.

[54:00] Jeryl Brunner: And the talent was booked by Anna Strout.