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[0:11] Joshua Broadbent: Hello, you are listening to a brand new episode of Whispers in the Wings, and today I am so excited to share before we launch into this episode that the podcast has been recognized in FeedSpot's Top 10 Australian Theatre Podcasts at Drumroll, please.

[0:32] Joshua Broadbent: Number three. So I wanted to extend my appreciation to you, the listener, for helping me kickstart season three with a bang. It's really, really incredible to be recognized in part of that top 10 list for FeedSpot. Now, speaking of bang, on today's episode, I chat with production manager and controlled arsonist. Uh, I mean firework professional, Dale Norris.

[0:54] Joshua Broadbent: So I should note that that's Dale's mum's wording. Listen to the episode. You'll find out more. Now, Dale's also a really good friend, and we first worked together on Come From Away in 2021, and I've been so keen to get him on the podcast to talk all things fireworks since season one. So I am so excited that he is finally joining me. Now, before we welcome Dale to the podcast, let me share a little bit more about him.

[1:15] Joshua Broadbent: With over a decade of experience in the industry, Dale Norris is a Brisbane-based freelance production manager, operations specialist, and special effects supervisor. Dale has played a crucial role in a wide variety of events throughout Australia, excelling as a multi-skilled technician with a focus on event operations and production coordination. Dale holds a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Technical Production from the Queensland University of Technology, where he was honored with the David Whitworth Award and recognized as a QUT Vice Chancellor's Scholar.

[1:46] Joshua Broadbent: In his current role at Skylighter Fireworks, Dale oversees the special effects components of major citywide events in Brisbane. His responsibilities encompass major event overlay and infrastructure integration, including sports presentation, New Year's Eve, and Christmas activations, and theatrical installations for Queensland Theatre, Shake and Stir Theatre Company, Brisbane Powerhouse, and many more. Dale is deeply committed to promoting crew welfare, optimizing logistics and production management, and advancing sustainability within the entertainment industry. Let's welcome Dale.

[2:21] Dale Norris: Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Whispers in the Wings. It's so great to have you here.

[2:26] Dale Norris: It's really excited to be here and connect again.

[2:35] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, long time listener, first-time caller, as they would say on the um on the FM.

[2:41] Dale Norris: Oh god, I don't think I could do radio.

[2:43] Dale Norris: This I like being able to have control over this. Like I can edit it, I can tweak it, but my words aren't great.

[2:49] Dale Norris: You're going live, so yeah, no, happy that this is all pre-recorded.

[2:53] Joshua Broadbent: Now I have to say that I am pretty disappointed in that you changed your bio on me last night. And your original bio contained the phrase powered by ice, lattes and confetti. I am concerned if you are no longer powered by Ice Latte and Confetti. What's what's happening?

[3:09] Dale Norris: No, still very much uh powered by both Ice Latte and Confetti. Uh, just had to kind of refresh the brand a bit ahead of a few uh upcoming projects.

[3:18] Joshua Broadbent: Good. Good on you. I was I was worried because I am one that believes that everyone should just be carrying around a little pouch of confetti in their in their pocket for any celebration that they need.

[3:28] Dale Norris: Theatre cleaners fear us seriously.

[3:31] Dale Norris: Theatre cleaners fear shows that have confetti. Like opening night, sure you can get away with, but like uh oh, what did I see recently that every show was just confetti at the end?

[3:41] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, absolute nightmare and must budget for that one.

[3:43] Dale Norris: And it's the benefit that it's in my T's and C's that uh no cleanup from my end.

[3:48] Joshua Broadbent: Good. Yeah. Good. Look, it's important. Now, we know from your bio you studied at QUT and you'll recognize with some really great honors along the way. But tell our listener what got you interested in the world of theatre and events. Like where did it all begin for you?

[3:59] Dale Norris: Yeah, so like many of us uh backstage at high school, was like on stage performing in various drama and musical items. One day fell away to the back shadows of a theatre curtain and ended up uh backstage, and I haven't looked back since essentially. So yeah, pretty common story for lots of people, and yeah, I also fell uh fell into that one as well.

[4:23] Dale Norris: Obviously, you know, you you sort of mix between like events and theatre and all of the different things. Was there sort of a journey for you while you were studying that you knew you wanted to get into something, or have you sort of allowed yourself to like just move freely and and land to where you are now?

[4:40] Dale Norris: I've definitely landed where I am now as part of a journey, but uh in uni I was really working in the industry, and so I was kind of trying to work out where I was to fit and what was for me. Audio was my background, so live audio, which is how we met previously. Um, and that's kind of where I was enjoying my time. But obviously it's such a niche market, and with 24 other graduates going through the degree at the same time, I needed to find something to stick out.

[5:06] Dale Norris: So I was doing audio, but the passion for me was always technical coordination, production management. And as my career developed, that's kind of the niche that I fell into, and audio kind of started to move uh further down the list.

[5:22] Joshua Broadbent: How did you find the balance of studying and working professionally? Obviously, a lot of the listeners that I have are people that are just getting into studying or getting into the industry and and are finding the difficulty in balancing obviously working, making an income while they're studying, uh as well as studying. How did you find that balance for both you as a professional and also like within like your mental health and looking after yourself?

[5:48] Dale Norris: Totally. As an academic at the time, like it was a whole different kettle of fish. So obviously Muni was like in technical periods of doing a show season, it was six weeks of 8 a.m. to 10 pm, like start in the morning in class and then in theatre in the afternoon.

[6:02] Dale Norris: Yeah. Um, and I didn't really have a choice with that one that was stuck in its way. So it was also then about finding time outside of that to ensure that I had a stable income coming in, but also uh continuing also just to work in an industry that I already knew that I loved.

[6:18] Dale Norris: And so continuing to pursue that skill set um as general crew for venues and events in Brisbane whilst also ensuring that study was happening and then also health was definitely a challenge, but it's something that I wouldn't have changed for the better.

[6:34] Dale Norris: Like if I was just stuck off or become less driven, I think that would kind of change the outcome of where I've landed today.

[6:41] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah. Obviously, like studying, as we know. It's building on skills, like it's building those skills that you need to grow in the industry, but it's also mostly about networking.

[6:51] Dale Norris: That's it. Um I say that so I did the technical production degree at QT, and it's slightly different to how it is now. And I would say that 90% of my education there was communication. It taught me how to connect with people rather than technical skill sets.

[7:06] Dale Norris: I would find that if I hadn't have gone down that career path, I would have very much been the less approachable uh typical grumpy technician in the corner rather than trying to develop a career path that I have today.

[7:22] Joshua Broadbent: I mean a little bit grumpy technician in the corner. I've seen I've seen you work.

[7:27] Dale Norris: Yeah, well, I just dislike people in general. So no, um yeah, a little bit grumpy technician in the corner, but that's I just kind of guessed that it's about allowing yourself to open up to people and actually find more of a working friendship and communication and relationship with people to effectively deliver a a high-level end result for people.

[7:49] Dale Norris: And so I guess it's just about finding that trust with people before you open up to them as well.

[7:54] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, and I think I'm finding that it's now I'm moving into that producing world. I've obviously got people that I know and that I've been working with for years, but now a lot of them I'm their boss.

[8:04] Joshua Broadbent: So that sort of dynamic has shifted. I've gone from, you know, being a friend to being a boss, but also needing to still build on that really great relationship that I've had with them. It's finding that boundary that I can easily still be able to work with them and have things achieved without sort of that weird dynamic that happens in these situations.

[8:24] Dale Norris: Yeah, correct. I think it's about just understanding people's history, and if you had a history with people, just been ever clearly identify with those people about that current relationship change, or in this scenario, you're reporting to me, um, and maybe down the track it's the other different way, and having that mutual respect for each other in a professional sense really helps that kind of gel together really well.

[8:48] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, you've worked on some spectacular citywide events, New Year's Eve, um, Super Sun River and Brisbane Fest. What goes into the coordination of those sort of large-scale events from what the work that you are doing?

[9:04] Dale Norris: Totally. So two different projects there. Um, obviously, uh seconding to Brisbane Festival in 2017 as an intern with QUT, uh, I was fortunate enough to join um their operations team and deliver like a citywide event operations overlay.

[9:18] Dale Norris: Um, so uh stage managing and the closure of the city uh and road closures and river closures and all the weird things about how to shut down a river and an airspace, um, which kind of led me to where I am now a skylighter in terms of the fireworks delivery.

[9:33] Dale Norris: Um, it's months and months and months of planning. So, like a New Year's Eve for this year started being planned 18 months ago to ensure delivery can be on time and uh precise to the requirements of clients and deliverables and stakeholders and ensuring that everyone can celebrate at the same time.

[9:51] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, I did New Year's Eve in Sydney three times in sort of three varied roles, and it's it's incredible to know the amount of logistics that go into a single evening, you know, one night.

[10:04] Joshua Broadbent: And it could just be my inner circle, but I don't feel like I come across a lot of people that are actually interested in events. You know, they're not really interested in the chaos that events bring. Where a theatre is a lot more controlled. There's it's a controlled space.

[10:16] Dale Norris: And it's indoors. Unless you're doing opera on the harbour.

[10:22] Joshua Broadbent: Correct. Where you build the venue and everything.

[10:24] Dale Norris: Yeah, so it's definitely a challenge. And it's definitely my like my background with doing a bit operations, so bins, toilets, fencing, hostile vehicle mitigation, road closures.

[10:35] Dale Norris: There's definitely kind of like toughened me up a bit in terms of a little bit of a thicker skin and allowing to kind of have some practicality about incorporating that into creative choices now.

[10:45] Dale Norris: So now more in a creative role of project managing fireworks designs. Yeah. I can also just kind of be like, that's not practical or that's going to be really hard to achieve.

[10:56] Dale Norris: So how can we kind of blend the best of both worlds to fit it in the budget but also create a really really nice end result for a for a client.

[11:04] Joshua Broadbent: Speaking of fireworks, what goes into your role as a production manager for Skylighter?

[11:09] Dale Norris: Uh so my role at Skylighter is now we event sales through to concept planning and then handing over to uh a design and execution team to actually see out the event.

[11:22] Dale Norris: So I've moved very much from an operational point of view of just solely event ops to also selling a concept in a show to clients. Working with them to design it uh to colours, brands, themes uh and then kind of handing that over to a on-ground to deliver.

[11:39] Dale Norris: And then on top of that looking at business development in terms of best processes, practices, RD for the business moving forward.

[11:46] Joshua Broadbent: So you're you're working more on that obviously that front end. So you get to still experience the fireworks and and all of that because I've seen some fantastic photos and footage from the things you've been working on.

[11:57] Joshua Broadbent: But it's much more around client relationship building and the design of the fireworks for whatever their event or you know project is yeah yeah correct.

[12:07] Dale Norris: So uh that was kind of been the biggest struggle is turning from the grubby technician in the corner to moving into a sales role of essentially trying to convince people to uh work with us to deliver an event and using my event knowledge and my theatrical background really adding some theatrical elements and some theatricality to events to bring their event to the next level uh and then I work with the colleague who essentially brings my creative vision on paper to life in terms of 3D renders and animations for client sign off and then on top of that doing all the permits logistics risk management risk mitigation and budgeting alongside it as well.

[13:00] Dale Norris: Yeah, it's a multitude of ways. Firstly, it's about their event exploration and what is their event trying to achieve? Are we launching the TV series? Is it a brand exploration? Is it a wedding? Is it a funeral? Very common, you wouldn't think, but really many funerals. What is the point of this celebration? And then that really kind of allows us to target what the desired outcome is. So are we trying to create a brand recognition through lots of colours, or are we trying to commemorate someone's life? And from there, we can kind of then pinpoint things to ask, questions to work through, and so on and so forth.

[13:37] Joshua Broadbent: I'm still stuck on funerals. I don't know anyone that's had a funeral with fireworks.

[13:42] Dale Norris: Yeah, um, I didn't really think of it as a thing, um, and then it's kind of become something that's been really popular. We had another person come through our office who had written into their will that they'd like to be celebrated to their favourite song, go up in their favourite colour. They'd booked it all, they'd booked the land in advance, confirmed it was the land over, and yeah, they've chosen us to kind of be their final memorial for family. Um, a little bit more of a celebratory moment rather than somber, which is really nice. Um, and rather than people being sat on a mantle forever and a day, really turning it into a celebratory moment for people to kind of cherish their loved one.

[14:17] Joshua Broadbent: I honestly have chills all through my body. Because I think you're right in, you know, watching fireworks, no matter where you are in the world, you stop, you look at them, and you smile. Right? It's all five senses. If we've done our job correctly, no one knows that we existed. But it also, as we would say in the year, right? If we were to talk about our role and whether it's stage management or audio or lighting design, our role is not seen. It's like we're always like hidden in the background. But in this fireworks role, it's exactly the exact opposite. If we've done our role correctly, you have been able to get four to five senses out of it. You can see it, feel it, smell it, touch it. Uh, and worst case scenario, taste it.

Um, in terms of experiencing all the different elements of a fireworks show, and that's why it's a centuries-old tradition of people actually just smiling. Um, ironically, and every time I do the newsly presser every year, the host from the Today Show loves to bring up the fact that as a child I used to be petrified of fireworks, and there's great memories and records in my family of me running away from fireworks displays.

[15:21] Dale Norris: It's a real 180, um, in terms of a small person as a child being petrified of fireworks, so now kind of delivering civil key events for the state of Queensland.

[15:32] Joshua Broadbent: Do you think that's because you have control of them, or do you think you've just grown up?

[15:38] Dale Norris: Yeah, I think I've grown up. Uh, also I don't like crowds, so any excuse to be at a minimum of 50 meters away from everyone in all directions because of a legal requirement, I will take.

[15:50] Joshua Broadbent: Yes. I totally appreciate that. Crowds are not my thing anymore. Avoid them where I can. So have you in your role had the opportunity to press go on the Pyro?

[16:03] Dale Norris: So when we first actually connected, which was twenty twenty one for Come From Away, I was freelancing as a freelance production technician, freelance production manager, audio tech, and pyro on the side. Um, I have been licensed since twenty nineteen operating shows. That was just a casual kind of weekend filler or whenever I wasn't moving around the country with theatre shows, I would pick up some work in Queensland firing shows of all different calibre and sizes and locations and events. Um, and it wasn't till post-pandemic where I was offered a full-time role in a production coordination role at Skylighter. And I'd just gone through a few freelance projects in a TD role that I was offered a nine to five and a work from home that I went sounds great. And so whilst I still am on the tools and firing shows of a weekend, uh, my day to day is now in the office enabling our team to deliver these shows by giving them the best resources possible.

[17:00] Joshua Broadbent: You get to balance that nine to five while still getting to, you know, experience the live events.

[17:05] Dale Norris: I, as my mother would say, the controlled arsonist in me allows me to still fire a few shows. But I get to balance a really good nine to five now and work on events of a weekend as well. But the work-life balance has been great. I think that's, it's really interesting how throughout our careers both you and I have found ourselves going from working on events or productions to now being nine to five and I don't think I miss parts of being on productions. You know, I miss being around just a little bit more people and just those sort of fun things you do on tour and the, you know, the sightseeing bits you get to do. But at the same time, I just love being home and I love just having time back to do the things I want of an evening, things like this. Partly why the podcast sort of had a hiatus for a period was because I just couldn't find that balance, find that time to manage it.

[18:01] Dale Norris: Yeah, I couldn't count on my hands the amount of birthday parties, friends' 21st graduations, all of the things that, you know, that you've also missed as well. And when I was given the opportunity, I was really hesitant at first of this is a massive shift for me to move into a 9 to 5 and what is it going to mean? And that was three years ago now. So I think three years full time at Skylighter now and it's only recently in the past like six months that I've been so grateful to actually be like, oh, I now can go see my friends after work. I can go see my sister and her family every weekend. I can go to the gym, I can actually try and find other things in my life that are bringing just as much joy as theatre, but also it's allowed me to kind of enjoy theatre as an entertainment form a lot more. Because obviously working in theatre and then going to see theatre just becomes exhausting.

[19:00] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah.

[19:00] Dale Norris: And so when I took all this time back and I stopped working on theatre shows and I stopped going to theatre shows for a while as a bit of a detox, getting invited to shows or buying a ticket to a show now is like an absolute highlight for me because I get to see my friends still absolutely excel at what they do both on and off stage, but also be like in celebrating and supporting a beautiful art form at the same time.

[19:24] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah. And I think you found that perfect balance, obviously, in what you said before nine to five, but still getting to do things outside of the nine to five. Part of your bio talked about your commitment to promoting crew welfare. Do you feel like with that shift in your career and how that's gone, you've actually, your mind sort of opened up a little bit more about how to look after a team and how, you know, you knew what balance you needed when you were working, but you, we never find it, right? We're always struggling. But now, as someone that can sort of manage a team, do you find yourself you're more aware of the needs of, you know, especially around like mental health and, and you know, all those personalities?

[20:04] Dale Norris: Yeah, it is incredible what a good night's sleep can do. And as someone who was already working in the field during uni and then trying to be present in uni and keep a friendship and a relationship and all those things, I know that I burnt myself out. Yeah, I struggled greatly, um, and as someone that was also finding themselves at the same time in terms of being comfortable with my own identity at that same time, it was just an overwhelming thing. And the more and more I would step through in these junior to medium roles of people will move on, you will be replaced, like, and I saw it happen to people around me. I instantly became so conscious of people's time and ensuring that they were looking out for themselves, because I had the fortune of being a TD for a show that came through theatre on the Gold Coast, and we had some really, really nice, fresh crew out of NIDA that came to join us for the show, and they were like happy to be in a theater from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., and then they knew that they had a props list to fix, and they're like, Oh, we'll get it done tonight, and I just remember losing it, and I was like, absolutely not.

Like, I will see you in 11 hours' time. I don't like if I find out that you've been in the theater, like, I'm gonna be absolutely distraught because I've been that person where like I've walked outside of a loading dock and not known which way's up, where the sun is, where I'm meant to be, because I was never told that it's okay to say no or ask for a day off or be like, I need to do my washing.

[21:40] Joshua Broadbent: Like, yeah.

[21:42] Dale Norris: Yeah, and I think that's something for me now in this producing world. I'm very same as you, very conscious of the things that I used to do. Like, I'm happy to skip a break, happy to do, you know, just to get things done. But now I'm like, no, no, no. Those breaks are really important. Like, if you're in a theater from 8 a.m. till 10 p.m., go and stand outside. Like, just get some fresh air for a minute, or just take a little bit of a brain break, scroll endlessly through TikTok for 20 minutes. Like, do something that's just separating you from what you're doing because you're better for it.

[22:14] Joshua Broadbent: Totally, and if you're better for it, you can also then use that energy back into the workforce as well.

[22:20] Dale Norris: Yeah, but also now in my role of seeing guys come in from working the show the night before, and then back in the office prepping for the next day, being actually able to step aside and be like, You are not well, or have you had breakfast? Or is mind-blowing, and I remember greatly actually, and I'm not sure whether you remember this, but like during CFA in Brisbane, I was going through my first breakup ever. So I've been in first relationship ever, four years long, and I've decided to end it in the middle of tech week. Probably not the best choice, and it was actually your stage management team, and like you, as a member of that team, like that was the only one that actually recognized that he's not okay. Um, and so for now me like seeing like just trying to bring that energy back to people of being a conscious eye for people when they may not be able to be an eye for themselves is like key.

[23:14] Joshua Broadbent: And I think that's really important for anyone listening to know that you can be that person. It doesn't have to be a manager or a producer or like it doesn't have to be someone at a high level. You could be going into this industry and we talk about Are You OK Day? We talk about all those healthy check-in moments with people, go up to people and say, Hey, how are you doing? Like, you know, everything going okay? They may not want to talk to you, but you'll find that people are really willing to say, Oh god, today or you know, I've been here since 8 a.m., you know, not getting a break. Me as a person will go, can I get you anything? Do you need some snacks? Do you need some, you want me to go get you dinner? I can bring it back. You know, like, do you want to come for a walk? We can go around the block, those sorts of things that can happen at any level. It doesn't have to happen at a top level, it can happen anywhere.

[24:00] Dale Norris: Correct. And I think people being aware of that and then being comfortable to be able to offer that themselves. And I think the moment that you've ever had that offered to you, you will never look at it the same way. And suddenly your eyes have opened and you can then start offering it to other people as well, which is kind of cool. It's one of those things that you can't teach people. You know, you can't, you can't teach people to be aware of their own mental health, let alone the mental health of other people around them. But it is us and creatives within this industry continuing to have this open conversation about mental health. Um, that is what's really important that encourages people to be able to communicate and conversate about it.

[24:41] Joshua Broadbent: Totally. And for me, what I do is dangerous, right? We handle a fairly high-risk element of the theatrical scene.

[24:49] Dale Norris: Yeah.

[24:49] Joshua Broadbent: And so it's not actually for us about knowing when to press the button, it's knowing when not to press the button.

[24:57] Dale Norris: Yeah.

[24:58] Joshua Broadbent: And when it's not safe.

[24:59] Dale Norris: And so I need my team to be well rested, to be confident in themselves, to be confident in the work that they're doing. And they can only be that if they're supported from the ground up.

[25:14] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think knowing you, I think you do a fantastic job. Um, so you know, we need more people in this industry that are looking out for others and leading them with excellence to be the best they can be, but also to be the best person they can be, you know.

[25:46] Dale Norris: Your schedule is pretty busy all year long, as I can imagine. How do you balance all of that within like a schedule? Like to make sure you are still balancing that family and personal life as well as the work. Like, is there any tools, any tricks, anything you could share? For me, uh, Airtable is life.

[26:03] Joshua Broadbent: Airtable is love can confirm.

[26:06] Dale Norris: So I set Airtable up personally to be like kind of a contract tracker versus work incoming, work outgoing invoices to send from a freelance point of view. Um, when I was freelancing and still I'm freelancing occasionally on the side, uh, and then now have bought on into Skylighter to kind of be our like centralized database of every show possible, and it's just a multitude of calendars for me, and that includes putting breaks into calendars in terms of 10 days off in October for me, uh like off overseas, and that's been wildly communicated to the entire team. So it's just about prior preparation for me. So it's just having all data in one source, one point of truth, similar to a prompt copy.

[26:56] Dale Norris: Yeah, uh, it's um it's having all the information at hand in one spot for me to be able to refer back to, and so not having to constantly switch through an Apple calendar here and a Google calendar here and a show calendar there. One central point of information and then putting that information into one spot ensures that a I know where I'm meant to be in a full-time capacity, but also for any freelance work that I'm doing, and also ensuring that I remember to send invoices to get paid.

[27:24] Joshua Broadbent: Can you tell me a little bit more about Airtable? I haven't experienced it before, and I was just quickly flicking through looking at some of the site. Is it is it sort of like a project management tool?

[27:33] Dale Norris: It can be kind of whatever you want it to be. I use it in a relational normal database point of view in terms of kind of every project gets a record and setting up lots of calendar views to kind of keep track of things that are happening, but it can be used for a multitude of things, primarily in lots of creative roles in terms of like content approvals for socials, posts, and copyright.

[27:56] Joshua Broadbent: Right.

[27:57] Dale Norris: But I have kind of turned it into a cradle to grave kind of like a production management process and also really cool like live schedule sharing. So being able to like sort an infilter by supplier or department and have them have a live updating schedule and not have to be sent a Excel spreadsheet that's out of date the moment that you have press resent. The moment you close that it's out of date.

[28:19] Joshua Broadbent: Correct.

[28:37] Dale Norris: In your bio you talk about sustainability, and obviously it's it's one of the bigger conversations that is starting to pick up more in our industry. Have you seen real progress in what you're doing and the way you're doing things and also things that other people should know so that everyone can be doing good together?

[28:56] Dale Norris: Yeah, this is something that's been kind of a passion project slash a real interest of mine ever since my third year kind of major thesis at QUT, where I got to interview John O'Perry, former STC technical director, in regards to SDC's in terms of production sustainability in general. So always love a reuse of a set in or any capabilities or any contribults where possible. As of the latest import 20% less smoke emissions, no plastic, no metal into a display. But also work on a data level to be able to do in post-event reporting back to councils and LGAs and clients of the fireworks component of an Easy Scale show is actually the equivalent of this many Big Macs or this many buses running compared to your other event overlay of bins, fencing toilets, buses, trains, ferries, drones, generators, and all the other things, and working with a really high-level scientist based in the UK called Tom Cardinal to really see that graft on paper.

And the moment you can kind of actually show this is the amount of carbon or this is the smoke from this show and this is how it's being used or broken up actually allows people to have a greater understanding of what the effects of a fireworks show may or may not have on an environment.

[30:45] Joshua Broadbent: What are some of the sort of simple things that people can do from your sort of mindset when you know whether it's theater or events, like people that are starting to get into the industry or starting to study that they can start thinking about of you know ways to m make a project more sustainable?

[31:01] Dale Norris: Yeah, for me, I think it's really from the ground up. So firstly, it's things like we're being able to like commute in an efficient way to work. So whether it's ride share with multiple people or public transport, especially in the river city where bikeways are a plenty, right through to production paperwork, as you know, like we print and use reams and reams and reams of paper before we even see a stage, and just being more conscious on what that looks like. And I've been really, really like impressed, obsessed, immersed in seeing a different show callers on various levels through the community from community events through to during international productions, are using technology more and more to adapt run sheets and show calls into a digital medium to enable a more sustainable approach right through to sets being reused where possible stored in sustainable matters being shared with other community groups that may or may not be able to afford a new build but can use resources from other companies to kind of bring shows together from a like a sustainable method in their finances but also seeing shows get a second life outside of their initial season.

[32:17] Dale Norris: It's really interesting because my stage manager on our national tour of Lab OM uh used a digital prompt copy on an iPad and I stood next to her during the closing performance a couple weeks ago and just was watching her call the show and my stage management inside the the little stage management in me was like oh my god oh my god oh my god what happens if the iPad dies my iPad's not reliable I mean it's a bit old it's not reliable and I said to her at interval I was like what would you do? You know you touch the water you're like uh sorry don't don't happen but um what's your backup like what is the back she's like oh I've got the book there and I was like great oh but the book's not necessarily 100% up to date okay but you've got your laptop in front of you so you know there's those backups but my mind I think is stuck in the when I was studying a lot of people wanted to get into that digital world because iPads and tablets and all of that was starting to become more uh readily available for people and affordable for people. And it was very much like our our lecturers at the time are like, do not use it for show calling, do not use it for this, do not use it for that.

[33:25] Dale Norris: So my mindset is still like trying to be open with it because it's it's important, but also being like, what happens. I think it's a matter of generational change as well, because I am in the same boat as you and I share the same concerns. But also, if I can see an entire orchestra be able to read music over iPads, I have some confidence that it's going to be okay.

[33:48] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah.

[33:49] Dale Norris: But even if it's just a matter of using the technology to allow multiple revisions to be generated before you decide to press print on the backup copy, like it's a win for me. Like, or for us, for example, that every single firework that goes up into us into the sky has a sticker and an associated cue sheet with it. And so for me, like we're looking at moving all of our cue sheets to digital and all of our pre- and post-display reporting is to digital rather than handwritten, just to try and cut down on that waste. But it's taken months and months of RD and finding software that works and settings that work to ensure that at the end of the day, when we turn the key at 11 59 on midnight, that the system will still work.

[34:30] Dale Norris: So very much the backup is still there. And I think until kind of this new generation of technicians come through that we kind of continue to see some change before we kind of be like, okay, prompt copy paper version is now backup number three rather than still being used to proc up all of the short people that we are in terms of delivering the show.

[34:54] Joshua Broadbent: It's yeah, like all the the shows that I've worked on, the stage manager has their prompt copy, the deputy has their prompt copy, the ASM or the two ASMs all have their own individual prompt copies because it's how they like you know, everyone has their specific ways of annotating things.

[35:08] Dale Norris: And don't forget the blocking script.

[35:10] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, blocking script, yeah.

[35:12] Dale Norris: Yeah, yeah. I think sustainability, obviously, we have as an industry a very long way to go, but it's uh it's really about being conscious from the start and going, do we need this? What's another way of delivering something to this, like paperwork, um what resources you're using, as you said, seeking the things that are being donated or or are the sets and bits and pieces of offcuts, that sort of thing. It all helps. It's you know, we know that there's a lot more to go into it to really change things, but you know, being conscious is and and acting on things is the most important step to m to help change.

[35:50] Dale Norris: I think as long as we're consciously continuing to review our practices and making a conscious effort to ask ourselves why or how or with what, then that allows us to continue to grow in terms of the efforts that we're making.

[36:06] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, I think you're I think you're right there. One thing I I should have asked before while we're sort of talking a bit more about fireworks, but I think it falls within this sustainability. What goes into making like a firewall from the the control through to you know the the firework itself in a simple form? I know it's gonna be probably quite technical, but what are the the layers of of a firework?

[36:28] Dale Norris: Totally. So every firework is different, but it essentially starts with the device that pushes it from the ground to the sky and how that happens. So whether if it's a big aerial shell, it's a lift charge, or whether it's a single shot, such as a the actual effect, it's more kind of self contained and more close proximity and more effective. It is from being handmade by scratch, every single one, all the chemicals and powders combined, all the little stars that you see that burst or being placed individually, should they being packaged and then shipped, then imported, then freighted, then imported again, and then being stored in a local facility up to scratch to the codes of the Australian government, and then being individually designed in 3D animation software to hit that beat perfectly, or that first dance moment perfectly, or that corporate event launch perfectly prepped similar to a lighting console at every single Q has or in Diva channel and pressing go on the console and seeing that creation come to life.

[37:31] Joshua Broadbent: So is there obviously there's a scientific method to a firework because of you, as you said, it goes through a digital design process so that the client can see it. Is there sort of set recipes for fireworks so you know exactly what that firework is going to look like, or is the design a little bit sort of like 90% what it's gonna be?

[37:52] Dale Norris: That's actually a really different form to what we work with in terms of we're just gonna be lucky that we have manufacturers that we work with and we say, hey, this is the end result that we want. How do we get there? And our beautiful manufacturers and suppliers go, This is how. But pyrochemist is a real job that I don't do, um, and no one in my team does, but our manufacturing network does constantly to ensure that they're also incorporating the newest technologies and quantities and being able to be like this country here is doing that.

[38:37] Dale Norris: How can we do that in a way in Australia that's also meeting compliance and regulation here? Because Australia is the strictest when it comes to firework safety. I find it interesting that it kind of works backwards. Like you go, here's the design, this is what we need, and that they do that rather than here's the stock standard this firework if you mix these colours equals this sort of thing. Um I found that so fascinating.

[39:01] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, but otherwise everyone would have had the same thing.

[39:04] Dale Norris: Yeah. And so as a manufacturer, we are very fortunate to be able to kind of have our own little stock of stuff that no one else has. And so whilst we may sell wholesale to other companies, we have this little exclusive like key of toys that we can roll out for special events and be like, this is unique to this project. So that's kind of the benefit of having that touch point from a creation level all the way through to execution and cleanup.

[39:32] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah, cool. Do you have a favorite firework colour combo?

[39:37] Dale Norris: Uh I'm colour blind.

[39:39] Joshua Broadbent: Oh, does that affect your job?

[39:42] Dale Norris: Obviously not, because you're still doing it. No, no, uh, because I am highly operational and logistical.

[39:51] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah.

[39:51] Dale Norris: And that's why I rely on such a strong, strong design team and the people that are much more creative than I am. But for me, I can't go past a really large, Aussie, big golden brocade crown finale. So there's like a sky full of gold and silver with silver crowns and brocade crowns. Um, every competition that we work in overseas, so we've just had the team come back from Nacao and a competition in Belgium. The finale has always been large brocade crowns, and everyone goes, Oh yeah, the Australians are here. So it's a bit of a signature design choice, yeah, but it always ensures the crowd goes, Oh yeah, no, it's over. That was the moment.

[40:32] Joshua Broadbent: So that yeah. Fireworks competitions.

[40:35] Dale Norris: Of course there are.

[40:37] Joshua Broadbent: Never held here, I'm assuming.

[40:39] Dale Norris: No, no, we do. We are so Skyliner hosts the only international fireworks competition in Australia on the Gold Coast every May slash June weather pending where we are the host company for two other international teams to come out and kind of uh battle each other to take home the giant surfboard that they somehow have to then fly home with.

[40:40] Joshua Broadbent: Wow is that something that that people can go and watch?

[41:05] Dale Norris: Yeah seafire on the Gold Coast every May or June weather depending hosted by the city of Gold Coast. It's yeah it's a wild thing so three shows ten minutes in duration um yeah it's it's it's great fun.

[41:18] Joshua Broadbent: That's so that's so fucking cool.

[41:21] Dale Norris: Yeah maybe I'll find my way up to the Gold Coast. And then it's even like just talking generally for a second like it's just contingencies like so it's meant to be offshore off surface paradise we'd just gone through the cyclone here in Brisbane and it was like cool there's no more beach front for people who stand in and watch the show on. So operationally what does that look like? Bins fencing sites move to other locations bar just moved all the last minute prep and planning that still goes into it to ensure a show of scale and substance. Just like any outdoor event there's always those contingencies hey yeah needs to be even if there's not any any in place, you make them work.

[42:02] Joshua Broadbent: If you write it, you won't need to implement it.

[42:05] Dale Norris: But if you don't write it, then you will have nothing to implement, and then you will look like a fool.

[42:11] Joshua Broadbent: Yes. What's one random skill that you've picked up on a mixture of the jobs that you wouldn't usually have as a production manager, do you feel?

[42:22] Dale Norris: Yeah, I actually would go back to my comment before of knowing when to say no, or knowing when to not push the button to make things happen. And actually being able to come up with alternates for clients when their first dream or the first end result may not be achievable. Whether it's a theatre set piece that can't physically fit through the door or can't be built in time to where the conditions meaning shows can't happen. It's actually by on the job training of being in every role from an ASM at uni and a general crew member through to Tink shows or technical managing shows on a national level of when actually having to be the person to stand up and be like sorry, but we can't achieve that is kind of the thing that I didn't ever see me needing to obtain a skill set, but the thing that I kind of am most proud to have now.

[43:26] Joshua Broadbent: And when to be able to work with a client to be like, we can't achieve this, but let's look at doing it this way and looking to receive a result.

[43:36] Dale Norris: I think that's a really good point in that you know it's similar in stage management. You should never say no, right? Like we know that you should never say no, you've got to try and make it work, but you have to be able to say, I've looked at it, we can't make that happen, but this is what's achievable in this moment, and actually coming up with an option. If you just say no, it's like you've just completely blocked any conversation where that's the whole point of s you know, of it. You need to be able to communicate with them.

[44:06] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah.

[44:07] Dale Norris: I think for me learning that skill set of winning to take the no into a new energy is something that I'm continuing to learn, and especially having moved into a slightly more sales forward role now of being able to be more client-facing, is having to take the technical realization and the sales promise to a client and coming to a compromise to ensure uh a succinct delivery. I think that's a a really fantastic skill to to have and to continue to build on because I think it only makes you a better practitioner at what what you do.

[44:44] Dale Norris: The other answer to that is putting lots of microphones in plastic bags during a COVID period. Because I've never seen so many plastic bags in my life.

[44:52] Joshua Broadbent: Plastic bags. Don't you uh do you remember this on CFA? 'Cause CFA was one of the first shows to come back in a pandemic world. So every cast member's microphone would have a clean and a dirty bag.

[45:05] Dale Norris: And so it would leave Radio World in a clean bag and be delivered to the dressing room. And then they would have a used bag in like red tape that they had to then put the microphone back in to be sanitized. And I've never seen so many plastic bags in my life.

[45:21] Joshua Broadbent: I mean, we talk about being sustainable. The pandemic was the most troublesome period for me for many reasons. I did nine to five as a COVID safe officer, yeah. Interesting role, and luckily never really had to deal with the the plastic bag thing. It was more just about getting tests out and making sure door handles are sanitized, all that sort of stuff.

[45:45] Dale Norris: For someone coming out of Muni uh and looking for their first production gig, what do you think are the best ways for them to get notice and to find work in I guess any field really?

[45:57] Joshua Broadbent: My answer is succumbers. And I think it was the same for you. I think you did a few that kind of really just like not only put you in front of producers and TDs and all that other things, but it allowed you to work out what you like and what you don't like. If I was to turn around now and be and look at myself in 2017, so eight years ago, and be told by my uni lecturer, shout out to Carly O'Neill, um, whether or like that they would send me to STC to work in theatre for six weeks, or to go work in operations for fencing and bins and toilets for six weeks. I know for a fact that I argued black and blue about it and I said I had no interest. And I am forever grateful for both of those experiences.

[46:47] Dale Norris: So my answer is if you're in a study capacity and there's a comment pathway or an internship pathway or a work integrated learning pathway, take it. And don't just do the bare minimum hours. If you are able to, and your lifestyle allows you to, i.e. you still have an income source where possible, and you still have people to support you where possible, wrap it up. Go be the walker during the lighting focus, go help the A2 mic up people, do whatever it is, observe where possible, because that is like what has pushed me continually to where I am today.

[47:26] Joshua Broadbent: And I think in that as well, ask questions. And I know from my experiences as comment, I found it really hard to come up with questions. But also I've worked with secondments that ask too many questions. So you know, constantly felt the need to to talk. I think depending on obviously what secondment you're going through, just being uh aware in that moment of what the team you're working with are doing is really important. Like if they're on their computer typing out really quickly. Not the time to ask them a question, but the time to go, hey, I have a couple questions, like once you've got a sec, you know, love to have a chat. You know, it's those, it's those sort of things.

[48:06] Dale Norris: And I I remember actually um my like secondment contact at STC was very much like this is gonna be a whirlwind six weeks for you because we're building a mainstage show and working on a creative development uh which was Muriels at the time. And so it was just like um if you have questions write them down. And I promise that there will be a time where we sit down over a coffee and we can actually just spend for time to answer them rather than likely receiving a one word response in lieu of frustration. And it's also in that moment you also may find the answer to the question as you continue to observe what's happening.

[48:44] Joshua Broadbent: Yeah you seem to do that a little bit longer and you go, oh that's why it's done that way.

[48:49] Dale Norris: So I've got two final wrap up questions for you. What's the next big project that you're working on that you're you know you're really excited about?

[48:52] Dale Norris: There's three projects currently on the horizon. One is MELT Festival here in Queensland, which is a celebration of Queer Art and Culture. Fantastic. Look out to the River Pride Parade. And then secondly to that is New Year's Eve in Brisbane. I started working on this concept in November last year and really getting to the pointy end. And then third and finally is Dark Mofo in Tazi next year.

[49:19] Joshua Broadbent: Fantastic. I think I think they're really exciting projects coming up. And of course I forgot what time of the year it is. New Year's Eve is coming up.

[49:27] Dale Norris: Um thank you so much for for making the time. I'm so glad we're able to connect finally after all this time of trying to plan this episode.

[49:34] Joshua Broadbent: Where can the listeners um follow you to find out more of what you're doing and look at some pretty pictures of fireworks?

[49:41] Dale Norris: Uh hit me up on Instagram at Dale Norris, which will also be the same for LinkedIn, and that will kind of direct you to all the fun places where you can see the portfolio of works from there.

[49:50] Joshua Broadbent: Dale, before we head, do you have any words of wisdom for the listener?

[49:55] Dale Norris: Get out and continue to support local artists, production companies and suppliers in your local region.

[50:02] Joshua Broadbent: Perfect. A big thank you to Dale for being so open about his journey, the lessons he's learned, and a reminder that sometimes the most important part of the job is knowing when to not press the button. Not only in theatre, but in everyday life.

[50:17] Joshua Broadbent: And as always, if anything in today's episode has brought up questions around mental health, burnout or wellbeing, Support Act is there for anyone working in the Australian Arts. You can call their free confidential hotline on 1-800-959-500. And if you're listening from overseas or outside the industry, please reach out to your local support service.

[50:36] Joshua Broadbent: If you're enjoying Whispers in the Wings, I would really appreciate you sharing it with your friends, your theatre community, maybe someone you think could learn something from the podcasts and the guests that I welcome on. And also make sure you're following on Instagram and TikTok as well.

[50:50] Joshua Broadbent: And to close out 2025, my next interview episode welcomes Evan J. Lawson, a composer, writer, curator, singer, and conductor, and a founding member, an artistic director of Forest Collective. So stay tuned for that episode, and until then, go out and see some live theatre because there's nothing quite like it.