Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones. And last week, we heard from the award winning playwright, Lynn Nottage, as she shared the joys and struggles of being a writer. Well, now Lynn is back to talk about the industry and how it has changed throughout her decades as a writer, as well as sharing one lesson she learned from August Wilson by answering the final five questions in this bonus episode of why I'll never make it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into the five final questions that I ask every guest. And the first one is, what do you remember most about your first professional show?

Lynn Nottage:

My first professional show was poof. And what I remember most is probably the fear and anxiety that gave way to relief when it was finally on the stage.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did it did it come together as you wanted whenever you watched?

Lynn Nottage:

I mean, it came together in a really beautiful way, and we're so fortunate to have such a fantastic cast. I mean, the two women who put it on. And and that's just the lesson for me because I'd never had that experience of just how invested they were in the piece, and I found that to be really beautiful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, how has the industry changed most since when you first started?

Lynn Nottage:

Oh, that's a that's a big question. I came into a very different industry than it is now. Number one, you know, as a woman, as a black woman, there were so few opportunities. And we were very much relegated to the second stage. And it had to fight to get to the bigger stages. And there just weren't a lot of mentors out there. And there weren't a lot of our plays that were being produced, you know, not just in New York, but, regionally. And so now when you look at the landscape, there's actually for the first time, parity for women and men getting produced.

Lynn Nottage:

It's we're not there for people of color. It's still there's still a lot of work to be done. But that's kind of astonishing is that in this industry, women's stories are now being told as often as men's stories are being told. And that's a beautiful thing because, you know, 50% of the actors are women. And when only men are selling stories, it means there's just less work for for for for for women. And so that's the big change. And then I think the other, big change is there are more theaters. There are more the more theaters in New York.

Lynn Nottage:

There are more theaters across the the country, which means that there's slightly more opportunities for young people coming into the industry. And, also, I think that there's a theaters recognized that they have to nurture the next generation. So I teach I teach at Columbia School of the Arts, graduate students. And one of the things that I love that wasn't there for me is that there are more festivals. There are grants and there are commissions. And there's television. Is that a playwright coming out of graduate school, you you know, with enough tenaciousness and talent can find their way through this industry and maybe not have to get 10 extra jobs.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Now now you mentioned grants, and one of the grants that you've been awarded throughout your career is called the genius grant. Is there how do you feel about having a genius award?

Lynn Nottage:

again? The reason why the MacArthur grant for me came at such a important and necessary moment in my life, I still remember this, and this is true. I was on the phone with, playwright Katori Hall, who at the time, you know, she was transitioning from, like, being my mentee to being my colleague. And she's like, well, what are we doing next year? And I looked at my calendar. I'm like, apparently, nothing. I'm like, there's nothing out there for me. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have to continue to temp. And then literally while I was talking to her, and this is before cell phone, you know, how you remember how you used to, like, click off to get the other call?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Lynn Nottage:

Like, I clicked, and they're like, hello. We're calling from McArthur. I'm like, oh, hold on. Click. I'm like, Tori, I think I have to take this call. And it was the MacArthur people telling me that I had won this very generous, life changing and career changing grant. And so I feel nothing but gratitude to the foundation for, gifting me with that, award at a time when I really needed it in my life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. That's really amazing. Yeah. I mean, like you were saying that you write and write and write, and you're not being paid to the right. You're paid once it's produced.

Lynn Nottage:

Once it's produced.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And and you never know when that's gonna be.

Lynn Nottage:

And you never know. And, also, it's like we really receive these commissions. I'm really fortunate. I'm at this point in my career where I can get a commission. But by the end of the writing process, most of those commissions amount to, like, 8¢ an hour, if that. You know? It's, like, below, a living wage that most of the playwrights are writing for.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So that's when you hope to license and produce and then get-

Lynn Nottage:

Produce and and get it out there. But but even if you do license and produce, you know, in you you have two good years, and then it's back to the drawing board.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And number three, so what does success or making it mean to you?

Lynn Nottage:

What does success I mean, it's it's I I think I have a rolling notion of what success means, and it continues to evolve as I get older. And I have a different relation to my work. You know, and I remember years and years ago, when I was, like, a long young writer, I saw an interview with, Whoopi Goldberg. And someone said, what do you wanna be doing in ten, fifteen years? And she said, working. And for me, I guess, you know, I'm a worker, and working for me is success. And it's not connected to monetary reward. It's just connected to the ability to continue to do what I love. And the fact that I, each year, can continue to write and continue to find opportunities, to me, that is success.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And in all the plays that you've written, which one took you the longest to write?

Lynn Nottage:

Oh, you know what? I don't know the answer to that question. Which one I think that perhaps the longest process was maybe Sweat because it baked into the writing of that was the research. And so it was, like, a year and a half of research and then, you know, like, a year and a half of ruminating, And then I wrote it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Number four, describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

Lynn Nottage:

Personal lesson.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Lynn Nottage:

That's a hard question to ask because I've had so many things that I've learned in the course of being in this business. I can tell you one of the first I remember one of the first things that I I had the opportunity to sit down and have coffee with August Wilson. And I asked him, you know, what is your advice for a young writer? And he said, a writer writes. And I thought, yeah, of course. That's kind of obvious. But now as I get older, I understand that, like, baked into there was some advice is It's really about doing it and committing to it and just sitting down and investing in your craft, you know, it's like a writer writes and no one can take that away from you. Even as badly as you feel, the writing can be a place of solace, of refuge, of comfort, of empowerment. And I think that that's the lesson that I've learned is that my writing is more than just trying to trace opportunity, that it's actually a discipline and a practice and something that I need to do in order to get closer to myself and get closer to the world that I live in.

Lynn Nottage:

And so I guess that's the lesson.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's a pretty good lesson. And much like songwriters have these what's called trunk song, you know, songs that they work on that that aren't going anywhere, so they put them away. Do you have writings or plays that you put away and that come back maybe or maybe that don't come back?

Lynn Nottage:

No. I do. I have, like, you know, I have one play about a professor that every once in a while, I'm like, oh, I have nothing to do. Let me go and visit my professor. And I just get in there and tinker, tinker, tinker, and then I get out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's it's a play that may or may not ever come to

Lynn Nottage:

the movie. No one may ever see it, but I enjoy visiting with my professor and having my professor do interesting and strange things.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How funny. Here we are at the last one. Number five. What is the most useful advice that you've received? Might be from August Wilson. And how have you applied it to your life or career?

Lynn Nottage:

What is the most, useful piece of advice that I've received? You know, I've over the years, I mean, it's like I've received advice at different stages of my career. And, I went to hear a lecture by Toni Morrison, and someone said, what happens when you are blocked? And she said, you honor the block. And rather than trying to fight through it is that you interrogate, well, what is it that's stopping me from going forward? And spend time thinking about that, like, why can't I write this character? Perhaps it's because I don't know the character well enough. I don't know what I wanna say. Say yet. And I think that, that for me, really, landed. And I honored the block when I'm blocked. I don't think, oh, I'm gonna fight I'm gonna write, write I think, okay, What is the work that I have to do to get through this block? It just means that something needs to be done. What is the other advice? I think, you know, the other piece of advice someone said to me, and this was really an early in career, and it's something that I tell people.

Lynn Nottage:

I'd be asked, Well, what do you do? It's like, well, you know, I temp I do all this, and they're like, "No, no, no. You're a playwright. And you have to own it." And what's fascinating is the minute I owned being a playwright, then opportunity happened because I could see myself as a playwright.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because it's the same for actors. A lot of times, actors can say, well, I'm a waiter, or I I'm at office temp, or, you know, whatever they do to survive, but that's not who they are as a person.

Lynn Nottage:

It's not who they are. It's like really owning who you are. And I think that that was the piece of advice, you know, regardless, you know, of whether it's a playwright or a mother, you know, it's just being able to live in, your preferred self, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And with all the the awards that you've been given, the grants and different recognitions, you know, you certainly have a certain place. And whenever I was telling people I was gonna be interviewing you, they were like, oh my gosh. Yes. You know, that they were so excited that I was gonna get to talk to you, and and I've certainly been looking forward to this. Does that kind of pressure, that pedestal, so to speak, does that put any type of extra oomph into your work or maybe even challenge your work sometimes?

Lynn Nottage:

You know, I think maybe if you had asked me that question five years ago, I would have said, oh, yeah. Absolutely. But now I'm at a point where I'm just enjoying being in my practice and not thinking about external pressures. And I think that it's been a journey to get there because I think that there's so many obstacles that we throw up that prevents us from actualizing. And I think over the course of the last five years, I've been trying to tear down some of those upsells obstacles, and, you know, one of those was just the pressure of expectations. It's like, oh, you know, your next flight has to be great or, you know, this is you you, you know, you have to be out in the world doing all these things. And I thought, no. I don't.

Lynn Nottage:

What I need to do is what August Wilson says, a writer writes, and it's just as fundamental as that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wonderful. Well, this has been an absolute joy to talk to you, and I really appreciate you sharing the stories and experiences with us.

Lynn Nottage:

Well, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I hope you enjoy Pennsylvania.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you. Thank you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll never make it. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe, or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll nevermake it.