Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's often been said that history repeats itself, but humorist and writer Mark Twain took a different perspective suggesting that while it doesn't repeat itself, it often rhymes. And right now, in ways both subtle and painfully obvious, history is echoing all around us. In Ukraine, a country that has endured war, loss, and upheaval, artists and filmmakers are still telling stories, like a new movie yet to be released called Stetel, which captures the final hours of a Jewish village before it's wiped out by the Nazis. Meanwhile, here in The US, we're seeing a disturbing rise in antisemitism, a reminder that old resentments never fully disappear. And art and theater have always been there to preserve what's at risk of being erased. And for our guests today, that preservation of identity, of culture, and of personal truth came at a high cost.

Moshe Lobel:

Hi. I am Moshe Lobel. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York and currently live in the other side of the river in Jersey. And I'm an actor, producer, and filmmaker.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Moshe grew up Hasidic in an ultra Orthodox community where the arts weren't just frowned upon, they were forbidden. But Moshe still found a way to create even in secret, and that passion eventually led him to a life on stage and screen. Though it also meant leaving behind the only world he'd ever known, including his own father who cut ties with him as a teenager. From his early days as an understudy in Fiddler on the Roof in Yiddish to his starring role in Shtetl, Moshe has carved out a career that both honors his roots and defies the expectations placed upon him. But forging your own path isn't always easy, especially when the road ahead isn't clear. So how does he navigate what comes next, and what keeps him moving forward even without the approval of the past? That's what we'll be diving into in this episode. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and thank you for joining me on season nine of why I'll never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The website is whyI'llnevermakeit.com where you can subscribe, donate, and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'llnevermakeit.com. Well, welcome, Moshe. It is such an honor to have you. So glad to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me today.

Moshe Lobel:

My pleasure. Nice to meet you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, you are a, a native Yiddish speaker from an Hasidic section of Brooklyn, New York. And, and so we're we're gonna be talking about some of the stories that revolve around this part of your life. So, really, before we get going, I wanted you to basically describe your experience as a Hasidic Jew and and for us Gentiles, what that really means.

Moshe Lobel:

I don't know how many of the viewers, probably a significant percentage have watched, unorthodox on Netflix. That was pretty much my community, my family dynamic. So I I was raised, like, ultra ultra ultra orthodox, like, one of the most extreme, I guess, sects even within the Hasidic community. My mother pretty much grew up in a shtetl in Upstate New York. Now it's very developed, but that back then, it really was, like, very rural and, low key.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And shtetl exactly. What what what what is the

Moshe Lobel:

is a village. That's the it's Stutt or Stott is, city. Stetel is a little town. You know? Maybe not village, town. And it refers to, like, Jewish towns, back in Eastern Europe before the Holocaust.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Gotcha. Gotcha.

Moshe Lobel:

But she grew up in New York, where they kinda built they tried to replicate that world to stay isolated from Western culture and influences and, yeah, to try to continue what they'd lost. But but I grew up in Brooklyn, and, I started breaking away when I was, like, 12 years old. My parents were divorced for many years, and there's a lot there. My father was definitely an extremist and was trying to keep us in as much as possible.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it sounds like this this state, though, really is just an insular community. That that's really the whole point of it?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Whether it's in Upstate New York or even in New York City, it really is, very insular. I wasn't really exposed to pop culture. You know? I still don't get a lot of references that people have. They're like, oh, you didn't watch this? You didn't watch that? You don't know the song? No. I mean, I for me, it kinda started in twenty two thousand seven. It was, like, my first time, like, listening to pop music. So, yeah, it's like Neo and, and Rihanna.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is is that hard to say so so isolated from the the kind of Western pop culture world around you growing up?

Moshe Lobel:

I think for some people, it's difficult. For me, I actually enjoy the differences that I have. I mean, I walk into a room and immediately, there is a dynamic. I mean, we can exchange different backgrounds. We can talk about things, like, that they know or that I know, and we come from completely different worlds. So it's, I think there's something cool about that. And, also, there's a an element of discovering things that I didn't I mean, it's it is rough. Like, I I wish that I had exposure to, like, a lot of art and, you know, better education, of course, when I was younger.

Moshe Lobel:

But at the same time, it did make me very curious, forever. And I'm, like, always trying to learn things and discover things. And, yeah, it's it's cool.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is is the reasoning behind this insulated type of community because it's seen as corruption or some type of bad things will happen if you are exposed to these other things?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. I think the the biggest fear is losing losing you. You know? Like, if if you start to discover another world, other options, then you might decide that you prefer that. Yeah. And there's definitely that kind of neurotic need to preserve something. I mean, people address, like, the sixties. You know, it kinda stopped there. There's just this nostalgia, like, you know, that things were great before, so let's not change it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And and definitely in the way that, you know, obviously, they're they're speaking Yiddish, but then there's also the dress. There there's different ways that this community kinda keeps itself apart. Correct?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Because the language I think the language is the biggest element. We don't really speak English, and most of my classmates, if I meet them today, have a lot of difficulty with English language. They can speak. Like, they can get by, but they can't really express themselves. I mean, it's difficult if they're trying to, like, have career in certain areas. Like, they can do business, like, with each other, I guess, or they can study, but it's difficult to, like you don't really have a lot of options. And I think that's by design, you know, to to kind of keep people in.

Moshe Lobel:

But at the same time, there is that, again, the element of preservation where, you know, assimilation can really erode at these traditions. And, as much as people might want to try to raise a generation, let's say, with in kind of a mixed environment where they're introducing them to different options and different languages, the reality is that things do get diluted over time, if you open it up and you start mixing. You know, you see it not just with the Yiddish language but with other other cultures and other languages that, you know, once people start to assimilate, these things are lost, and it's it's painful for people. It's even painful for me even though I I don't want to stay, like, in that world. I don't wanna force anybody to stay in that world. But at the same time, the idea that it could disappear is a bit painful for me as it is with Mandela, you know, in the film. So there's a lot of similarities there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely be getting into the film a little bit later. But for story number one, we'll we'll start with the theater world, which obviously in New York, Brooklyn, it surrounded you. It was across the river in Manhattan. And but that was something that you were not allowed to be a part of.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. I didn't even know Broadway existed growing up. So I think I'd learned about Broadway probably sometime my teenage years, maybe, 16, 17. I don't know. There was never any talk about that. We didn't know, like, I wouldn't say I'm a theater kid. But I did you know, we do have theater. So we had, like, a kind of sort of.

Moshe Lobel:

So, I mean, there's no real, like, career in the arts. People don't really take that seriously. But there are opportunities to perform. Some people do it professionally. If they're singing, they can sing at weddings, or they can, lead the services, which I was actually trained. That's that was my big my start in performance. I I was a musician. So I've been playing keyboard, piano since I was born, basically, and then I I was trained to sing as a canter.

Moshe Lobel:

So it's kinda classical when I was a child. So this is, like, one outlet. And then you have, theater twice a year during holidays. There is a show. They'll mount it at at, like, a public school theater or something, and they'll charge, you know, like, $10 or whatever, $18.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which holidays do do these tend to go toward?

Moshe Lobel:

It's, Succos, and Passover. So this is in the fall and the spring. And anyone who's interested in seeing a show, this is, like, the time to do it. And it's, like, kinda silly theater. I mean, they take themselves pretty seriously, but it's it's a bit old fashioned, I guess. And there's music usually. Like, this they use the same melodies, just write different lyrics for the different shows that they're doing. And the people who do it, I mean, they get paid, but it's not like a career.

Moshe Lobel:

You know? They're doing it part time just for the season, and then they have regular jobs, you know, that they have, all year round. Yeah. So there wasn't really any thought even that I could be a professional actor. But I did, like, on Shabbos afternoon, like, Saturday afternoon, we would, I my neighbors, like, we would gather at my neighbor's house and raid their costume closet. And for those who don't know, Purim is, like, Jewish Halloween, so there's, all these costumes. And we would just dress up and, like, improvise plays for people. And then when I was 12 years old or 11 even, my best friend and I adapted Yiddish, like, children's book into a a play with music, and we actually, like, mounted it in the basement of a synagogue. I remember it was so silly because I I had, like, a a beard.

Moshe Lobel:

I was playing like a rabbi and I had a we got like a karaoke microphone that I put under the beard. Not that we needed a microphone for that room, but I just needed to feel legit.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Moshe Lobel:

And it just, like, kinda stuck the giant microphone out of my giant beard. Oh, funny. And we charged kids, like, 5 to $10, I don't remember, to come, and they actually paid.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now now was this kind of performing because it was Yiddish and because it was Yeah. Yiddish. So so it it was acceptable.

Moshe Lobel:

And this was my first producing gig. Mhmm. Yeah. Right? Producing and writing and yeah. This is acceptable because it's, like, a Jewish story, and it's for, you know, Jewish audience. Yeah. But it's not again, it's, like, it's seen as play. It's not seen as something that is could be a serious thing to do.

Moshe Lobel:

And we would watch, like, these plays. Sometimes there were there were recordings of old plays. Those are, like, the movies that we would have, recordings of the old holiday plays. Because, let's face it, they don't make them like they used to. So, like, we would watch, plays from decades earlier, secretly because my father didn't even even those things, he those Jewish plays, he didn't he didn't let us watch. So we had to go to our neighbor's house, and they had, DVD players or computer, and we would watch it there. Yeah. It's pretty exciting.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So you did find other ways to to experience movies and and a different kind of storytelling growing up.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. We also had some like, secretly, my mom would have some movies, like, some children's movies, Mary Poppins, Sweet City Bang Bang, Swiss Family Robinson. We watched them, like, 500 times. We didn't really have a lot of options. And then it was like Schindler's List, you know, when I was 12. You know? So that was, so when I I when I was 12, I I I left my school. I really started to transition out, and I was out of school for months because my father wanted me to go back to the school that I was at. And he went around to every other school that I applied to and told him not to take me.

Moshe Lobel:

So I, I was stuck at home for months, and we had a TV secretly, and I just watched whatever was on. Gene Autry show, Yes, Dear. I don't know. Like, just a lot of daytime crap.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Whatever came yeah. Whatever came on.

Moshe Lobel:

I mean, I love a good western, so, you know, actually, it was, I don't know if you can hear my accent. I have, like, a little bit of a western, like, undertone there. Sometimes people notice it. And I think it's because when I switched from Yiddish to English as my primary language, I I was watching a lot of TV and especially westerns. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. The gunslingers of the West and all that. Right? Now now did this cause some tension between you and your father growing up?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. So, I mean, what there was a lot of tension over the years before that, where I wanted a little bit of liberty. And my my mother wanted us to have a little bit of liberty, and he didn't. And, he was also, I mean, abusive emotionally. And so there's there's a lot there. And when I was 12 and I I basically, I wanted to go to a certain school, and he gave me an ultimatum that if I go to this interview, he would disown me. So I went to the interview, and he disowned me and, and then tried to take it back. But the damage is really, like, done, and, you know, it took a couple years until I could break away fully because there was court ordered visitation.

Moshe Lobel:

And I think that, at the time, the courts didn't really understand the dynamics in the ultraorthodox community. And so they kind of would order people to stay in the status quo, which is typically the, you know, the guidance for children. But the status quo was very toxic and abusive and suppressing, like, my growth, my education. And I really, really had to fight to get that. I had to go to court myself and and fight for that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because if if if I understand correctly, the the father is really seen as as the leader and what he says goes. Right?

Moshe Lobel:

Yes. Yes. It it varies by family, of course, as always. Different people exploit religion in different ways depending on their personality types. Like, I have family. I have cousins. I have hundreds of cousins and maybe thousands. I don't know.

Moshe Lobel:

So I have family who are very ultra orthodox, but the women are very open and, play just as much of a role in the household. But, I think very often, they don't, and the man is in charge.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. For for myself, I I grew up in a Christian household, specifically Presbyterian. And and and while I've I've grown apart from the strict doctrines of my faith, it it it still holds a powerful influence over me and and, you know, how I navigate the world even to this day. How does the faith that you had growing up, how does it still impact your life today?

Moshe Lobel:

I don't have faith. I don't I don't believe in anything, but I do have a strong connection to the culture. And I don't even believe in spirits, but I am a bit spiritual, I guess. You know? Like, just the vibe, I guess. It's not anything that I believe in. I don't believe in supernatural things, but I enjoy indulging in feeling and community, and that's something very important to me. And I found some of that in theater and sometimes in film as well. But it's not quite the same as, like, sitting down at a Shabbos table Friday night with a family, whether it's my own family or someone else.

Moshe Lobel:

It just brings up a lot of it feels like home. It's what I grew up with.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Even whenever I go back to Alabama, there there is a certain sense of you know, I've been in New York sixteen years, but going back home to Alabama, there is a sense of of home and familiarity and just that that comfort of

Moshe Lobel:

Even though you don't probably don't agree with anything that anybody believes there. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Beliefs have certainly changed over the years. You know? Some I still hold to, some I don't, but there's still that familiarity and that sense of community of the people that I I grew up with and that I love in back home. Yeah.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Community is a it's a beautiful thing and also can be toxic at the same time. And, you know, you gotta just but I I always crave it. I mean, even in New York, I'm always, like, going to places where there's still community. I don't go into, like, Bar Park. My hometown is a bit far for me, but I'll I'll go to, like, Harlem or Washington Heights just to feel that sense of community that's that that doesn't really exist in most of New York.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Well, before we get into the specific shows that you've been in, when did your father finally discover this acting pursuit, and and what was that reaction?

Moshe Lobel:

I don't think he knows what I do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

He still doesn't.

Moshe Lobel:

We haven't spoken since I was 16. I mean, he I'm he knew as a kid that I was playing, like, in summer camp. We had plays and stuff like that. But like I said, I didn't I didn't have even I couldn't even imagine that this is something that I would do as an adult. So it wasn't really until college that I started to do theater. So he doesn't I don't know if he knows what I do. He probably doesn't, he wouldn't understand. Again, another thing about you know, that's in the film where Mendel's father, my Mendel, my character, goes back to his father, and, he calls he says, Mendel wants to be a filmmaker.

Moshe Lobel:

And he's like, what? You wanna be, like, a magician? We don't do magic in, like, Judaism. He just doesn't get, like, why he wants to waste his time, like, telling these stupid stories. You know? And my character does talk about, you know, the religion I mean, how stories play a role in religion and how that expands into I mean, of course, like, early theater was, you know, often about, spiritual elements Mhmm. And still can be. Yeah. So there's definitely a lot there. But I don't think I mean, I think I think my father just would would not understand.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And your mother? She seemed to understand a bit more?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. My so my mother left completely. My siblings also left completely. So, of course, they're very supportive of this. I think at first, my mom was not fully supportive. I mean, she she was supportive of me being creative, and, I wanted to study music when I was, when I was younger. But she always said, like, you gotta do something practical. So I studied psychology, and I failed out of college.

Moshe Lobel:

And I I the only place that really worked for me was theater. But I think it wasn't until I got my first real paid job that she was like, okay. This is something real. This is a career.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I talked to so many actors who whose parents were the same way. They want you to be creative and they and they love the the imagination, but yet you need to make money. I want you to be happy. I I don't want you to be, you know, on the streets or that. It it seems like that that's still a driving force for a lot of parents.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You don't want your children to fail. Right. I don't know, like, even what I would advise somebody. But at this point, yeah, my my siblings too. I remember when my sister came to my first show outside of school, like, my first, like starring role off Broadway.

Moshe Lobel:

And, she was like, oh, wow, you should do more of this. I was like, okay, now they're finally starting to get it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

As we get into story number two, we'll we'll talk about one of your Off Broadway roles, and this was as an offstage understudy in the Yiddish feather on the roof that was back in 2018.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, actually, a few seasons back, we had James Monroe Shevko on the podcast as well. Yeah. He he talked about this wonderful production.

Moshe Lobel:

Played Mandel.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And, and and we talked about this wonderful production, which was directed by Joel Gray. What what was your experience with Joel and this cast as a whole?

Moshe Lobel:

The cast was incredible. I mean, I I was so you basically had a bunch of people who started in this, like, random Yiddish show. I mean, it had Joel Grey, which was, like, the big selling point, but nobody expected anybody to care about the show. And they were working for, like, $300 a week, or something. And they really formed, like, a familial bond throughout the entire run, all the runs that they did, you know, starting because there were, one, two, three, I guess, runs, separate runs. First, downtown, then, Off Broadway, and then another remount Off Broadway. And all along the way, there was this kind of, there's this holy shit feeling of, like, is this really happening? Because some of them had been on Broadway, but most of them, this is, like, the first big thing. And we just nobody was jaded about it.

Moshe Lobel:

We were just, like, loving it. So I love being a part of that group. And I came in late because I came in as a replacement. At first, I was playing, Mortre in the original run, and they were very welcoming when I when I joined. I I had no problem, like, ingesting.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And this was in Yiddish, and so, obviously, a language that you grew up with, very familiar with. Was most of the cast that way as well, or were a lot of them learning it first time?

Moshe Lobel:

Most of them had learned it for the first time. Some of them had worked in Yiddish before, but they didn't really speak. There was one other fluent Yiddish speaker, someone who studied and teaches Yiddish. But almost everyone, didn't speak Yiddish, and they worked really, really hard. And I think I didn't fully appreciate it until I did I had to learn to speak Ukrainian for the film Shtetl, which is filmed in Ukraine. We have a couple of scenes in Ukrainian. I wrote, like, a message on their on the the group being like, okay. Now I now I get it.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Because for me, it was easy. But for me, the Yiddish part was easy, but I had to learn to do musical theater because that wasn't really my training. We did, like, one musical in college. We didn't have, like, serious choreography or anything. So I really struggled with a lot of, like, adjusting in that regard. Luckily, they I think they adapted some things for me that I so I didn't have to go crazy, especially as a replacement. Sometimes it's difficult because you don't have the same, rehearsal time

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Moshe Lobel:

As others. So, yeah, that was that was definitely an adjustment. And then, when they moved uptown, the original, actor playing Morte, came back. So they invited me to be an offstage understudy for five roles.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. That's also its own learning curve, to go from one role to then having five roles under your belt.

Moshe Lobel:

Yes. It was a challenge. Just again, the acting part was easy for me, but keeping the the blocking and the choreo, like, is was was a bit difficult. I really enjoyed, like, being a part of that group, but I think the offstage understudy thing just didn't work for me. I felt wasted. I you know, it's it's tough to be, you know, because you have to be there every day and to feel like the least useful person in the building because you're literally not doing anything most days. It was tough for me, and I didn't really like the roles that they put me up for most of the time. Like, the my favorite roles I my favorite role I never actually got to go on for.

Moshe Lobel:

And, my least favorite one was the one that I was most often. It was, like, the role that I actually hated. Yeah. So I I eventually, I was, like, I'm really I'm becoming unhappy. And I spoke to the stage manager, and I said, like, I don't wanna just, like, drop out and, you know, screw you guys over. So let's discuss, like, a timeline, and I just need to move on. And I I was afraid to say that because, you know, this is a a job that most actors would kill for. It wasn't the best paying.

Moshe Lobel:

I mean, it's not Broadway, but it was a salary, and, it was steady. I don't have to do much. It it sounds like a dream job, but for me, it was soul crushing. And and everyone in the cast was like, yeah. You're too talented for this. You know?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well well, I mean, that's I think you hit upon it. You know? You didn't do much, which which in some jobs, I guess, if you're if you're working at a desk, I guess that can be nice to just kind of not have to work that hard and still get paid. But as actors, we we we want to be busy. We wanna be doing. We wanna be performing. And, I I've I've I've I've been in understudy in several productions of myself, including the Beetlejuice tour that I'm currently on. But in each one of those, I also have the ensemble track. So I was on stage, and then I would it was from time to time understudy or go into the the bigger roles.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But,

Moshe Lobel:

but There's another element of being, like, well cast. Meaning, I didn't feel like my talents were being exploited. I I felt more like, oh, he speaks fluent Yiddish, so it should be easy to do five tracks five speaking tracks. You know? But it wasn't really, I think, about what I have to bring as an actor. It's just the way it is. I mean, casting is complicated, so I'm not, like, throwing shade or anything, you know, because it's I think they wanted to keep me, and they wanted to find the best, place for me, considering all the other pieces of the puzzle. But it it just was it it seemed like ideal at for me at first because I was like, oh, yeah. I wanna work on other projects.

Moshe Lobel:

I was producing my web series, so I I wanted to have more downtime that I can work backstage. But, ultimately, I realized that this isn't ideal for me at all.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, what you said about casting and sometimes especially when it comes to understudies and swings, they'll cast someone because they can do it rather than because they should do it or they fit that role.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Or sometimes just because they they look the type, you know, or whatever.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Right. It's it's

Moshe Lobel:

It fits a costume.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So put them on. Yeah. And the thing to stress is that it's not really a pride issue. It's not like, well, I need to be the star or I can't be in a show. It just has to do with feeling like you fit into the role, you fit into the show in the best way possible.

Moshe Lobel:

I love I mean, I love small roles. I love supporting. I didn't see myself as a leading actor until I started doing it and just kinda fell into my lap. I remember my first show in college was 1776. I auditioned for Rutledge. He's, like, the super racist guy who has this whole, like, song about slavery. The music was perfect for my voice because I was trained. And I did my audition, and I was like, yeah.

Moshe Lobel:

I nailed that. And they called me back. They're like, you know, let's have you do, like, The Courier. It's a small role. He has a song at the end of the first act. And I was like, alright. Alright. I'll do it.

Moshe Lobel:

And, so they cast me as that. And for the rest of the semester after the show, everyone on campus would be like, you're the guy who did that song at the end of the first act? And I was just like, oh, wow. I had this, like, tiny role, and it seemed to make a huge impression. Mhmm. I'm sure that the next semester, they're gonna cast me in the lead. So I went and auditioned for the next, semester, and they, they didn't even cast me in the show. They added, like they wanted to include more people, so they added these, like, narrating, like, singing characters to introduce, like, the acts. And I was one of those, like, singing fishermen.

Moshe Lobel:

And, you know, I got through my entire college career not ever doing a leading role. I was in 12 Angry Men playing, like, Juror nine. But every time people were like, you know, you did this or you did that. That made such an impression. And I was like and that was, like, the definition of, like, there's no small roles, just small actors. And so I never saw myself. I saw myself as a character actor, and I I really enjoyed getting into the very specific characters. No.

Moshe Lobel:

I didn't I didn't wanna play, like, a Tom Cruise, you know, type or something like that. You know, I I mean, I think the lines between character and lead have blurred in the last few years, so that's kinda nice. You can really play with a lot more. And it wasn't yeah. Until my my first off Broadway show that I was cast as the lead as a Yiddish play. So I had that going for me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This was Clifford Odette's Awake and Sing. Right?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Which is really cool because, Awaken Sing was written to be, like, the English version of Yiddish. It was written, like, to sound like Yiddish speakers as if they would speak English. And, actually, the original script had a lot of Yiddishisms in it, but they made him take it out for the Broadway production because they wanted to be marketable, I guess. And they were all Jews, of course. So they were they were afraid of they were afraid of being too Jewish.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. But they also understood their very white audience back in the nineteen thirties.

Moshe Lobel:

Yes. Exactly. So they they kept, like, I think, and that's about it. But there was a contemporary translation that was done in the thirties, just a few years after that, into Yiddish. And that felt to me like the most authentic version because they would be speaking Yiddish in The Bronx.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, with these two off Broadway productions that were both in Yiddish, did you start to feel a trend like I'm being typecast in Yiddish roles now?

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love performing Yiddish, but at the same time, it's strange having to tell people, like, oh, I can also act in English. It's I mean, they can hear me speaking fluent English, but they will still just think of me as a Yiddish actor, which is very strange. I think a lot of casting just lacks imagination. Some Some are very good at what to do. I think directors are usually a bit more spiritual in their casting. So they're looking for the vibe more than, like, Oh, this is the type that they're playing.

Moshe Lobel:

But I think a lot of casting, because it's just such an arduous process, which I've done, I've done casting, so I think a lot of people just try to narrow down, this is the type for this, this is the type for that. There's there's more to it, which is that I I don't like to apply an audition too much. That process started to crush my soul. And so, naturally, I think the things that come to me are the Yiddish parts because of word-of-mouth. Or if people see my work and they're like, you know, if they're looking for a Yiddish speaking actor in in this age range, then I am, like, one of two people that I think can be found.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Yeah. Right. Now now when it comes to performing in Yiddish, obviously, you're you're fluent in both Yiddish and English, but yet is there a different acting style? Do do you sense a different storytelling when it comes to a Yiddish production versus English?

Moshe Lobel:

Absolutely. When I started to perform so I'll go back. When I switched from Yiddish to English as my primary language starting at 12 and to my teenage years, I I started to really distance myself from the the Yiddish language. To me, it was a a tool of suppression, and I felt we didn't have, like, intellectual, like, literature and stuff like that in in Yiddish. So I I wanted to just move away from that. And it wasn't, like, until I discovered the Yiddish theater that I realized, oh, Yiddish wasn't just from my ultraorthodox community in Brooklyn. It has a rich, like, culture and history of intellectual writing, poetry, theater, music, going back, you know, to the nineteenth century and and before that. So so I I I did I was cast in We Can Sing, and I immediately, like, it turned on a part of myself that had been dormant for many years.

Moshe Lobel:

I rediscovered, like, a a big part of my personality, of my identity. It was kind of amazing. The cool part about that is that I think I realized that that part of me and the language and the style even because I grew up with a different style of theater, you know? So it was all of that influence informs my work not just in Yiddish, but in English. It adds to my quirkiness and my my voice. At the end of the day, Yiddish was an asset, not just in terms of, like, getting me in a room that I wouldn't have been otherwise, like, with Fiddler, but also just as a performer, as an artist. Having that in me is really powerful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number three, you recently starred. We've been talking about it. You recently starred in another Yiddish language production, and this time, it was a French Ukrainian film called Shtetl, which actually filmed in Ukraine about six months before the war broke out there. And your character's name is Mendeley. So please give us a brief description of this character that you play.

Moshe Lobel:

So this takes place in 1941 on the eve of the German invasion of, Ukraine or Soviet Union at the time. The film shows the last day of this shtetl, this community, before they're all killed in the war. So my character has left the community. He wanted to be a filmmaker and he went to Kyiv, the capital, to join the Red Army because at the time, the film filmmaking was, like, propaganda. So if you wanted to get a a leg in, maybe he wanted to be a production assistant or something just to, like, start at the studios there. So, he joined the Red Army. That was his way in. And then he comes back.

Moshe Lobel:

So the the film starts with him coming back to the shtetl. He comes back with his Ukrainian friends, and they have a plan because they wanna run away with his love together. So that's where it starts. And it's like a road movie homecoming kind of thing where he really confronts I mean, he he talks to a lot of people from his past and confronts his own past and deals with his relationship with this community that he left. There's still a lot of love there, and he doesn't want to separate completely. He still values, you know, his upbringing, his culture, even religion, even if he doesn't practice. So that's the whole film kinda navigating that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And as you describe this, I hear Moshe in this character

Moshe Lobel:

a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, there there are differences, but there is some really striking similarities as well that, it was kind of I mean, reading the script, I was like, I I couldn't believe that the director didn't know I existed before he as he was writing it. I did end up bringing some of myself into the film as well. There's some moments, for example, there's a moment where I'm singing a prayer, in the synagogue, and that was an idea that I brought to the film.

Moshe Lobel:

And the director wanted me to use a song that means something to me in it from my childhood. I spent some time. I was traveling in Ukraine, and, I was I was actually joining a a community like, a rabbi at the Friday night dinner table, and they asked me to lead the the services. And I remembered this song from my childhood, and I I put that in the film.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You mentioned about filming in Ukraine. What was it like working in that country?

Moshe Lobel:

There is so much talent. I mean, it's like they have a real a really strong artistic community and really, really, I mean, the cinematographer we had, a lot of the crew, a lot of the cast were Ukrainian. And it was just incredible to discover that world and that talent. The cinematography of this film is is very unique. It's, supposed to look like a single shot, and we did about 35 shots in the entire film. So it's, it has a very unique aesthetic, and this is a completely, like, a Ukrainian cinematographer. And it was also a homecoming for me because I my family is from that part of the world. Some of them were in Ukrainian territory or nearby places as well.

Moshe Lobel:

So my culture comes from Ukraine, from Karpaty Mountains. And so there's so much so many similarities. Even in the language, I mean, there's a lot of, like, Yiddish Ukrainian crossover and food and the vibe. You know? So it really felt very homey. And I also traveled a bit to, like, research and discover, like, places where Jews used to live in Ukraine. It was very painful but very, informative and inspirational experience for me that I I wouldn't have done if it wasn't to prepare for the film. It didn't never occur to me to go to Eastern Europe and retrace my roots. You know? So this is a really, really powerful personal experience and professional as well.

Moshe Lobel:

And then there was the element of war because there was already the war in the East since 2014. There's a line in the film, that I speak saying Ukrainian, but war is coming. And I was working early on, I was working with my Ukrainian coach. And I was I was saying, like, most lines most of the dialogue, I have a personal reference point for. I can kind of understand what that's like. But I don't know what it's like to say war is coming, like, here. I've never had anything any experience like that. And he said, well, here in Ukraine, like, war is here.

Moshe Lobel:

It's it's it is coming and is here. I mean, he had friends who had who were on on the front lines in in the East, and he personally and a lot of his friends and a lot of my colleagues that I've met later had participated in the Maidan revolution and, as well in 2014. So there was this feeling of war. And then between that moment, which was February of twenty twenty one, and the summer when we were scheduled to film, Putin already started to surround Ukraine with somewhere between 70 and a 30,000 troops. So we actually didn't know if we were gonna be able to film. It was really scary for a moment. And then they tensions kinda calm down. They called it a a military exercise.

Moshe Lobel:

And, yeah, I I think it was even difficult to get insurance for the American actors because of because of this. It was really complicated. But we filmed, and there was this tension. There was definitely this this tension underneath.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I assume that once filming wrapped and then then everyone left, so, I mean, obviously, now you know all these people in Ukraine. And to see Yeah. The the war began, and then it's, you know, just ongoing, it it must have been very tough.

Moshe Lobel:

They're I mean, some of my some of my castmates, some of my crew are in bomb shelters, like, every day. I mean, my costar, Anisya Stasevich, who plays my, Yuna, my love interest in the film, is still in Kyiv and hasn't had a normal night of sleep in years, except for when she is able to go abroad. But she wanted to stay, and, a lot of people wanted to stay. And it's difficult. And a lot of people were also involved in the war effort, whether directly on the front lines or other things, helping with, ammunition, refugees. I I went back to Ukraine Last Fall Of Twenty Twenty Three for the Ukrainian premiere. They released it in cinemas there, and one of the cast members came to the premiere in fatigues. So it was really, like, surreal, to be watching this film that's that takes place on the eve of war and destruction and then experiencing that and witnessing that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. It's it's crazy how history repeats itself over and over again. And so we it's like we as humans, we have to relive these things over and over again with every generation.

Moshe Lobel:

Yeah. I mean, it it's not the holocaust. You know? There are some similarities in this film just because it's a very unique holocaust film because it's not it doesn't take place in the camps or the ghettos. It's what's called the holocaust by bullets. It's these people who are just minding their own business, living their lives one day. And then the Germans just stormed in and shot them all in the woods or in the town square. So I think there's a similarity with some some situations in in Ukraine in this war where the Russians like Bucha, where they basically just stormed in and started just randomly shooting people. And, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Especially here in America, obviously, it's it's it's a different place than Ukraine and everything that they're going through. But, certainly, America itself has its own history, but also even in the present, just dealing with Jewish hate, Jewish backlash, just things happening that we hear about in the news. How have you responded, and have you wanted to use your art in ways to confront these things as they happen in The US?

Moshe Lobel:

I mean, the the goal of this film really is to humanize these people. Again, it's there's a lot of there are a lot of Holocaust films, but they take place they show people when they're ready in their worst state, their most desperate. And we wanted to show what was lost, who these people were. And it's not to say that they were perfect. You know, they're complicated people with inner conflict and doubts, but also love and dreams. And every person you know, we're talking about 6,000,000 people. Every person was an individual. It's not a number.

Moshe Lobel:

And so we're trying to show these individuals. And I hope that people will watch it and and see that this loss that they're very similar, I mean, to to anyone in terms of their struggles. I mean, people from all faiths will watch this film, and they will relate in some way. They'll they'll watch the scene with Saul Rubenek, the rabbi, and they'll be like, oh, that's feels like a conversation with the priest. You know? So, I think it really can can show the humanity and not just about Jewish people, but about any group of people who are experiencing war or violence, not to think of them as a war torn people and not to think of them as statistics, not to think of them as, like, casualties, collateral damage, but, like, to remember that each of these people had hopes and dreams, loved somebody, and are loved by somebody. I I hope that this is what the film will teach people.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, it's just like the conversation you and I are having right now. I mean, I've certainly seen and I've met a few Hasidic Jews here and there. I've been through Ukraine. So we have these different experiences. But just meeting you, you provide a different perspective than anyone else that I would meet. And and I think that that's certainly what the arts can teach us is that we're all individuals, but using it in a community sort of way to to to highlight that fact.

Moshe Lobel:

And the Hasidim too, I mean, in this film, you have different people with different points of view and different struggles. So, like, the main villain, I would say, before the Nazi storm or, I mean, there's there's they're the Soviets who are also villains. But in terms of, like, my character's, like, arch enemy is a Hasid. And he's jealous, and he wants to marry this girl. So there's a lot of conflict there, and he's a bit of a bully. But at the same time, you have other characters that I speak to who are also, like, pious and Hasidic, but they have a very different attitude. And even the rabbi has questions, but is is still very committed to his faith. So there's there's just different kinds of people, and it it's important not to paint any group of people in in a specifically negative light or even simplistically positive either.

Moshe Lobel:

I think the cool thing that I discovered when I traveled Ukraine, One of my goals is to meet Yiddish speaking holocaust survivors. So I I would go to, like, a town, ask around, and see who I can speak to. And then I would ask them what town I should go to next and hop on a train and get to the next town. And I spoke to different people, and it was so interesting because you meet these people, and there's this, like, reverence for Holocaust survivors that they're heroes. But they're actually just human beings who happen to experience something extraordinary. And some of them were brave. Some of them were stupid. Some of them even did bad things just to get by, just to survive.

Moshe Lobel:

These are human beings. They're flawed. Discovering that made me feel much better about doing this film because every character in this film is struggling with something. Every character in this not every character, but, my character at least does something really shitty in this film. You know? Like, it's not a simplification. It's not an idealization of these people. We're not portraying them as saints. They're human beings just like you and me who either were killed or were put through hell and either survived or didn't.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

With a movie like this, I mean, it has such such powerful messages. It has such deep and and complex stories. I imagine that going from a role like that to then like, what what what do you do next? Like, like, going from such a powerful show to something else. What's next for you? I guess, how do you figure that out?

Moshe Lobel:

Like I said, I don't need a lead role. I need lead character, you know, every time. I I do enjoy playing smaller roles. But I think for me, doing a project like this can really ruin everything else after me because you set the bar so high that you don't wanna settle for something that's just work or whatever, I mean, when it comes to acting. So I I can't replicate. I don't want to replicate what I experienced, but I'm trying to find something that's just as extraordinary in some way or another, unusual, something that I haven't seen before, that I haven't done before, something that uses my specific voice and my talents in a way in the best way. And it's been rough because I don't I don't I start in this film, and I I don't I don't even have an agent. I don't have anything.

Moshe Lobel:

Like, it's really I could probably find somebody, but I don't know what they would do for me that I I mean, I already get all all the Yiddish speaking roles. So, like, I I don't know. I I'm I have talked to some people, and I got the impression that they're just gonna continue to typecast me. So I didn't feel like they were gonna help me in any way. So I'm trying to, like, work in a more organic way. I have a creative partner that I worked with in a couple of projects that we created. We started in in college, actually. He wrote a play, and I produced it.

Moshe Lobel:

And then we created this, web series together, a comedy, and then we did a drama, like, short together. So, we have a great working relationship. We really, like, enjoy bouncing off of each other. And he wrote this script that I am really, really in love with. It's a bit transgressive. It's also related to the holocaust, but it takes place in present day. It's about an author, a young Jewish author that I would play. He writes this novel about a holocaust survivor, and it's kinda also similar to the thing that I was just discussing.

Moshe Lobel:

It's, the character in his novel is is like an Elie Wiesel type. He has a career from, like, telling his survival story and best selling books and stuff like that. But the guy the character in his novel is an asshole. So he's, like, portraying, like, a holocaust survivor in an unusual way because he's not idealizing. He's actually showing a really shitty person and basically saying, like, just because he happened to survive this tragedy doesn't mean that he's a good person.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Doesn't Yeah. Doesn't make a mistake. Yeah.

Moshe Lobel:

So the play or film, we haven't, figured out what it will be, but it starts hit with him, like, backstage about to go on, like, some talk show. And his publicist is like, so what are you gonna do about the neo Nazi who endorsed your book? And he's like, well, what do I care about what some neo Nazi says? But it becomes, like, a an issue. You know? Nobody wants their book to be endorsed by a neo Nazi, especially on the subject. And so he ends up, like, going through his whole press tour, getting into, like, fights with everyone because he's stubborn, and he's just getting into arguments with the Jewish community, with his family. It's a bit controversial, maybe, the subject matter. Mhmm. And we're kind of anticipating having kind of meta parallel response to our project as the character would have in in the script. And that's that excites me.

Moshe Lobel:

That really excites me, you know, to to do something that maybe people wanna talk about but are afraid to. Exploring, like, what is a valid Jewish story, who gets to tell these stories from what perspective because there is a generational shift. My character is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. And, of course, in each generation, they have different relationships with the Holocaust. So it's an exploration of all of that, and just him as a character, which is really interesting. He's not as charming as Mandela, which is also exciting for me because I I wanna play somebody a little more abrasive sometimes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well well, the thing is, I mean, just like us actors, but audiences. We we like the nuanced confrontational, controversial characters. We like that tension and to see how things resolve when it comes to, whether it's an on on stage production or film. And so, I certainly wish you the best with that, and it has been such a a joy to talk to you and and get to know you a little bit better and about the work that you're doing. So thank you for joining me.

Moshe Lobel:

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for talking to me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, and remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman, and the theme song that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions, and we talk more about why I'll nevermake it.