This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Shay Carter: This episode covers sensitive topics including abortion, sexual assault, rape, and incest.

[0:05] Shay Carter: Listener discretion is advised.

[0:15] Shay Carter: Welcome to the Women of Tomorrow Podcast.

[0:17] Shay Carter: I am Shay Carter, and do we have a hot one for you today?

[0:20] Shay Carter: This episode is called The Fight for Abortion Access Continues.

[0:24] Shay Carter: Examining the Fallout of Roe v.

[0:25] Shay Carter: Wade's reversal.

[0:27] Shay Carter: Voting has always been the key, but it's almost oversimplified.

[0:31] Shay Carter: If we are ill-informed, we end up with representatives that do not in fact represent us or the issues that are important to us.

[0:38] Shay Carter: The overturning of Roe v.

[0:39] Shay Carter: Wade one year ago was a product of electing officials who are misaligned with the values of the country.

[0:44] Shay Carter: It is my pleasure to introduce our guest co-host for this special edition podcast episode, Tiffany Springle.

[0:50] Shay Carter: Tiffany is bringing an awareness to how little voters know about women's issues that are then voting on women's issues.

[0:58] Shay Carter: Tiffany takes her game show to the streets and asks men about the issues that surround people who have the capacity for pregnancy.

[1:05] Shay Carter: Here's a clip.

[1:07] Tiffany Springle: Can you pee with a tampon in it?

[1:08] Unknown speaker: I don't think it's recommended.

[1:10] Tiffany Springle: Welcome to another episode of Roe V Bros, the game show where we find out how much men know about women's bodies.

[1:15] Tiffany Springle: Can you pee with a tampon in?

[1:18] Unknown speaker: You gotta take it out.

[1:19] Unknown speaker: I've seen the little tampon trash cans in the bathroom, so probably why.

[1:25] Tiffany Springle: Why are there different types of tampons?

[1:29] Unknown speaker: Uh different sizes of vaginal cavities.

[1:33] Tiffany Springle: How many tampons would one use for their period on average?

[1:38] Unknown speaker: One or two?

[1:41] Unknown speaker: I think one, to be honest.

[1:42] Unknown speaker: One.

[1:43] Unknown speaker: And if they put them aside.

[1:46] Unknown speaker: Yes.

[1:47] Tiffany Springle: What is a period?

[1:48] Unknown speaker: What is a period?

[1:49] Unknown speaker: It's uh the time of the month where the woman is ovulating.

[1:53] Tiffany Springle: Can you pee with a tampon in?

[1:55] Unknown speaker: No.

[1:55] Unknown speaker: Okay.

[1:56] Unknown speaker: No.

[1:56] Unknown speaker: All right.

[1:57] Tiffany Springle: Are you registered to vote?

[1:58] Unknown speaker: Yes.

[1:58] Unknown speaker: Are you registered to vote?

[1:58] Unknown speaker: Yes.

[1:59] Unknown speaker: Are you registered to vote?

[2:02] Unknown speaker: Yes.

[2:02] Shay Carter: Still let manbrains outvote women in the upcoming election.

[2:05] Shay Carter: Vote November 8th.

[2:09] Shay Carter: So you get it.

[2:10] Shay Carter: The responses she gets are alarming.

[2:12] Shay Carter: Then she immediately asks the participants if they are registered to vote and if they will in fact be voting.

[2:19] Shay Carter: Now's the time when I want to give a quick message regarding language.

[2:22] Shay Carter: We at Women of Tomorrow want it to be known that if and when we use the term women, we are referring to women and anyone with the capacity for pregnancy.

[2:31] Shay Carter: We recognize language is important and fluid, and so we want to add this disclaimer.

[2:37] Shay Carter: Hey Shay, let's get to the root of the episode.

[2:39] Shay Carter: Alright, so if you feel like you have missed some steps along this Roe v.

[2:42] Shay Carter: Wade reversal journey and now feel intimidated to ask, I mean, what even just happened?

[2:46] Shay Carter: How did it happen and why did it happen?

[2:49] Shay Carter: Don't worry, we've got your back.

[2:50] Shay Carter: Let us give you some context in terms we know you have heard and may or may not have fully understood.

[2:55] Shay Carter: Okay, for context.

[3:16] Shay Carter: This protection of pregnant individuals remained in effect for the next 50 years.

[3:20] Shay Carter: And that was until the case of Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization.

[3:26] Shay Carter: Now, for those unfamiliar with this case, it was filed by the Center for Reproductive Rights in March 2018 on behalf of Jackson Women's Health Organization, which was, by the way, the last remaining abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi.

[3:40] Shay Carter: And they were challenging the state's ban on abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy.

[3:45] Shay Carter: Because the ban was unconstitutional under 50 years of precedent first, the lower courts blocked it from taking effect.

[3:51] Shay Carter: Mississippi then took the case to the Supreme Court, asking initially for the court to uphold its ban, attempting to argue that it was consistent with Roe v.

[3:59] Shay Carter: Wade.

[4:00] Shay Carter: But after Justice Amy Coney Barrett was confirmed to the Supreme Court, Mississippi saw its chance to overturn Roe v.

[4:07] Shay Carter: On June 24, 2022, the Supreme Court accepted the state's invitation and overturned Roe, eliminating the federal constitutional right to abortion.

[4:17] Shay Carter: The court's majority opinion in Dobbs vs.

[4:19] Shay Carter: Jackson Women's Health Organization, issued June 24, 2022, halted a 50-year precedent of federal abortion protections and marked the start of a new era in abortion politics.

[4:32] Shay Carter: This has opened the door for states to ban or severely restrict the availability of abortion care.

[4:37] Shay Carter: Today, people seeking abortion in large parts of the country must travel to other states to get abortion services or obtain medication abortion through self-managed or other means.

[4:48] Shay Carter: In many states, abortion is not banned, but laws impose gestational limits and other restrictions that limit access to abortion.

[4:56] Shay Carter: This is where things get dicey.

[4:59] Shay Carter: There is so much information out there, some true, some false, some somewhere in the middle.

[5:16] Shay Carter: Well, if this is you, I am glad you're here.

[5:19] Shay Carter: Today we have incredible guests with reputable, vital information about reproductive justice.

[5:25] Shay Carter: All right.

[5:26] Shay Carter: Today we are joined by Lauren Ranowski, Master Social Worker, Policy and Program Associate at Pregnancy Justice, and we also have Sojourner Rivers, Senior Program Officer of Safety, Healing, and Reproductive Justice at the New York Women's Foundation.

[5:40] Shay Carter: With the support of the New York Women's Foundation, Pregnancy Justice works hard to ensure that no one loses their rights because of pregnancy or because of their capacity for pregnancy, especially those who are most at risk of state control and criminalization, whether that be those who are low-income, people of color, or drug using.

[5:59] Shay Carter: Here are some reasons you should know, love, and support Pregnancy Justice.

[6:04] Shay Carter: Since 2001, Pregnancy Justice has provided criminal defense of people charged with crimes because of pregnancy or any pregnancy outcome through direct representation and strategic legal advocacy, and defends their constitutional and civil rights by challenging laws and actions that violate people's rights and diminish their full personhood.

[6:25] Shay Carter: And we wouldn't have many of the incredible foundations that help so many without the support and collaborations made available through the New York Women's Foundation.

[6:34] Shay Carter: I personally am a huge fan of what they're doing.

[6:36] Shay Carter: And as one of the largest public foundations in the United States, the New York Women's Foundation helps fund organizations like Pregnancy Justice, who work for an equitable and just society for women in New York and beyond.

[6:48] Shay Carter: And as one of the four main areas of focus for the foundation, reproductive justice extends beyond just access to abortion, encompassing true bodily autonomy for women and gender-expansive people.

[7:00] Shay Carter: We are thrilled today to have both Lauren and Sojourner here to share their experience and progress on the front lines to advocate for reproductive justice and to let us know how everyone can get involved in protecting our rights.

[7:15] Sojourner Rivers: Thank you so much for having us this evening.

[7:17] Sojourner Rivers: It's so great to talk about this really important issue with Pregnancy Justice.

[7:23] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

[7:25] Lauren Ranowski: We are so like we love this podcast.

[7:28] Lauren Ranowski: And so we're really glad to be here to be able to talk about what has happened and where we can find a little bit of hope.

[7:34] Shay Carter: So do you guys mind us just firing off questions to you?

[7:39] Shay Carter: Because I know that we all have so many, um, especially statistical questions.

[7:45] Shay Carter: Cause I think some of the waters get murky.

[7:48] Shay Carter: You hear one kind of horrific story, and then you assume, well, maybe that was just the one odd case.

[7:55] Shay Carter: So do we have a national statistic?

[7:57] Shay Carter: And mind you, these are statistics.

[7:59] Shay Carter: If you need to look through notes and like make sure that you know, take your time.

[8:04] Shay Carter: Like, I don't, this doesn't have to be a rush.

[8:06] Shay Carter: Like, we want to make sure that you all of the information is like, you know, thoughtful and accurate and you don't ever have to feel like you have to have it off the cuff every time.

[8:16] Lauren Ranowski: So, do we have a national statistic on how many women are having to travel out of state for reproductive health care?

[8:23] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, um, I think we do.

[8:25] Lauren Ranowski: Um, so you know, with regard to that, um, we currently know that there are approximately 22 million right now, and any person um of reproductive age with the capacity for pregnancy that now live in states where abortion is heavily restricted.

[8:45] Lauren Ranowski: So, right now, when we're talking about the issue, like that's the baseline is that this 22 million people that are impacted by this decision.

[8:54] Lauren Ranowski: And so even before Roe was overturned, we were already seeing, you know, heightened travel for across state lines for abortion care.

[9:04] Lauren Ranowski: This, you know, I think it's important to note that, you know, Dobbs sort of exacerbated a problem that was already terrible.

[9:12] Lauren Ranowski: There were states that there were only one abortion clinic.

[9:15] Lauren Ranowski: There were tons of restrictions, uh like parental notification, ultrasound requirements.

[9:21] Lauren Ranowski: So this was already a huge problem, and it's sort of just putting fuel on an already like gigantic fire.

[9:27] Lauren Ranowski: And so not pessimistic at all, right?

[9:31] Lauren Ranowski: Um, but um, you know, even before Roe was overturned, you know, nearly one in 10 people obtaining an abortion traveled across state lines for care.

[9:41] Lauren Ranowski: Um we also saw, like, you know, this is not our data, this is um other data that I found.

[9:47] Lauren Ranowski: But um, you know, there was a study where um they did see an increase in travel associated with increased restrictions on abortion.

[9:58] Lauren Ranowski: So the states that were like middle ground states, they didn't see that increase, but they saw a very clear significant increase in travel.

[10:06] Lauren Ranowski: Um so unfortunately, I think you know, we are still pretty recent.

[10:10] Lauren Ranowski: There aren't, you know, there are a lot of metrics that we still are waiting for data on, like particularly like maternal health, like a lot of implications that we know will likely come about from Dobbs, we're still waiting to see what happens.

[10:24] Lauren Ranowski: Um, but we can look at the past, right?

[10:26] Lauren Ranowski: Because I mentioned that this is a problem that has already existed.

[10:30] Lauren Ranowski: And if there were these, you know, um urgent issues, then it's only gonna um potentially get worse.

[10:37] Lauren Ranowski: So unfortunately, I don't have a national statistic on like how many might be doing this now, um, but one in ten, you know, as of this report obtained it, and so might be even less now.

[10:50] Lauren Ranowski: I mean, might be even more now.

[10:52] Shay Carter: Yeah, and um thank you for sharing all that.

[10:55] Shay Carter: Um at the New York Women's Foundation, obviously we support some organizations that do national work, but also we're very much a community foundation, so we think a lot about New York, and just to kind of give perspective, even in a state like New York, where again there's so many protections after to Lawrence Point, even before the Dobbs decision, people were already beginning to travel, right?

[11:17] Shay Carter: So after the SBA decision in Texas that was basically allowing people to hunt down people who wanted abortions and sue them, this is before Dobbs, they saw like you know, massive increase in New York abortion funds, right?

[11:32] Shay Carter: So again, even before some of these things were legally taken away, all the attacks and all the fear that has created, right?

[11:41] Shay Carter: Created surges even in states like New York where we're blue and far away from again, you know, the places where you imagine there'd be people impacted.

[11:50] Shay Carter: Um so I just I really appreciate you naming that the surge has obviously increased, but there has always been people kind of abortion refugees.

[11:59] Sojourner Rivers: You just kind of blew my mind because I didn't know that the SBA stuff in Texas was before Dobbs.

[12:04] Sojourner Rivers: I thought that came afterward.

[12:06] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, that's correct.

[12:07] Sojourner Rivers: So although SBA was passed in spring of 2021, the Department of Justice filed a lawsuit to prevent the state of Texas from enforcing the law.

[12:17] Sojourner Rivers: And in October, they decided to issue a preliminary injunction blocking the enforcement. While this is all happening, the Dobbs case is running simultaneously. In May of 2021, the Supreme Court decided they were going to take the case, and oral arguments were heard in December. Then the following year, the majority opinion was leaked, and the official decision was issued on June 24th of 2022. And so there was already sort of like fear of what is to come in this new climate. Obviously, I appreciated you guys naming that like many of people on the ground sort of already knew that this was going to come once we saw the shift in the Supreme Court.

[13:01] Sojourner Rivers: Well, it was like sort of like similar with the SBA. So I think that there's just been a long trajectory of sort of like seeing this coming, and it's really hard to know like what to do about it, like exactly. And just also I want to um to the point of kind of hope as well that we we mentioned early, right? Um, to your point of like people saw some of this coming because of you know, Supreme Court and also like even after uh the Roe Wade decision, right? There was the Hyde Amendment, which basically made a lot of red tape for folks who were on Medicaid to get abortion access if they were in states, you know, that didn't support it, basically, right? So folks have been seeing, you know, as much as we have had that protection that it was vulnerable to attack.

And right, as much as, you know, obviously that's painful as people who see abortion as like you know, life-affirming and can, you know, can save folks' lives. There's also people who've been thinking and organizing about that of for this for a long time. So I also want to share that, right? Again, you know, organizations that are abortion funds, right, have existed for you know for decades some. So people have been ready and um building really deep relationships. I will just say um not to go on, but pregnancy justice had a beautiful event um a few weeks ago to celebrate 30 years of leadership um in this field, and they had speakers from just different reproductive justice organizations, including Sister Song, right, who have had really deep relationships for a long time.

So I also like to uplift that because that encourages me, right? There's strong relationships, there's strong partnerships, collaboration, and people have seen these attacks coming, and as much as it's still jarring, right, there are kind of networks in place to support people and help them get where they need to go as safely as possible.

[15:07] Tiffany Springle: Right. I mean, and thank God for things like the pregnancy justice. I know that like it's the court system is so incredibly complicated to navigate. And so when you find yourself in a position like this without the resources and how expensive lawyer fees are to even look over your case, um, I would love for you, Lauren, to just speak a little bit to like how do people find you? How do you choose um the clients that you represent?

[15:31] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, definitely. Uh all of it is challenging because there is always uh a greater need than we have capacity for, unfortunately. But that's why we're always like we're grateful for foundations like the New York Women's Foundation that increase capacity and allow us to expand. So I'd like to like start off by like with that like sort of caveat that like we always wish we could do more, sort of um how we hear about cases, uh it's it's truly a mixture. So uh we do have an intake procedure, so folks reach out to us directly, either by phone or by email, and they sort of just let us know what's going on, and um we kind of assess internally whether or not you know it's something that we have the internal expertise for.

And so those are the cases where there is a crime related to pregnancy or pregnancy outcome. And so that might be anything from an abortion to a stillbirth or a miscarriage, anything in that spectrum. Our most common, you know, what we most commonly hear of are people that are pregnant and uh use substances while pregnant, and that is maybe the primary basis of the fact of the charge. And so those are the cases that we most frequently see, but we also take on cases related to forced medical interventions, like that might be a forced caesarean section or a forced hysterectomy, unconsented um medical interventions, and we also assist with child welfare, or um we like to call it the I mean this we didn't come up with this, but the family policing system because it is not designed uh to benefit uh children, it is designed to just police family uh families, and so there are essentially essentially two different pathways.

There are like the criminal investigations as well as the civil investigations, and we view them as equally punitive and they're just as harmful and they tear apart families in just very similar ways. Um and a lot of times people have both. Uh, so we we take on cases that sort of meet those similar fact patterns. Um, and if we don't think we have the internal expertise, we will often refer someone to someone that to a different organization that might have that. So like things like workplace discrimination, things like sexual assault, like there are so many when you talk about gender justice issues, it's so expansive. But we really lean into our partnerships with allied organizations that like can step in when we don't have the capacity to and we don't want to give someone um you know inadequate representation.

It's so fragile and we want to make sure that the people we're helping we can actually successfully achieve justice. So um but it's ever changing and the landscape is always different. It it and we're busier than ever too like these things are coming up more it seems like more and we don't really know if it's that more people are actually being criminalized or if it's that people are discovering about us more. We're on Instagram um we have a website and that's typically how people find us.

[18:36] Sojourner Rivers: I was just gonna say related to this thank you so much for your service I I know that which I want to talk about intersectionality of all how all of this is affected if at some point in this conversation because you know the people who are most affected are usually the people that are most at risk um uh people of color and uh low income and things like that. So we'll definitely hit on that. But I did want to note um just as we're talking about this specific part there were some new articles that came out today. I'm all about the facts and uh information. So on CNN they did have an article and they had KFF surveyed um hundreds of practicing uh OBGYNs um between March and May. And some of the stats that they shared was about one in five um uh gynecologists surveyed said that they have based constraints on the ability to manage miscarriages and pregnancy related medical emergencies in the past year.

And then in states where abortion is completely banned, that share was about twice as high. And then some other things related to it is there are less people even wanting to be gynecologists or work in that. So we're even having less uh medical professionals that are going into the field. Um, and then let me see here. Uh more than a third said that they it has become difficult for them to practice with the standards of medical care. Um and let me see, I think there was one more fact I wanted to share because this is all related.

[20:07] Tiffany Springle: The majority of them as well, there's a specific number I want to find. This is where I was saying we can take our time to find the case.

[20:13] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, we can totally take our time. And honestly, these I'm still trying to like process what you've just said to me. The fact that we have people that are avoiding the medical practice altogether.

[20:23] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah. You know, that's that's so alarming. And then that this many physicians are afraid to treat.

[20:30] Lauren Ranowski: I've heard this too, afraid to treat within the first trimester because there's you know such a high risk of miscarriage.

[20:36] Sojourner Rivers: Um, are you one other thing? When you were when you were speaking, Lauren, I was thinking, how many how many cases in these states are having like how many women are are forced to prove they're having miscarriages? Is it common? Is it less common?

[20:51] Lauren Ranowski: Yeah, I don't think there is an exact number on exactly how many people are having to prove that they have experienced a miscarriage. But I will say there is empirical evidence that suggests there are significant barriers to care as a result of medical exemptions. You know, one of the organizations we look to for medical expertise is ACOG, which stands for the American College of Observ Obstetrics and Gynacology. They have explicitly said that it is not the business of the legislature to dictate when or not whether or not someone should receive medical care.

[21:28] Sojourner Rivers: So the legislature, you know, the states are attempting to create all of these complicated exceptions with terminology that doctors don't use.

[22:18] Lauren Ranowski: But what might happen to someone if the doctors don't believe them? What if there are, you know, other reasons for them to question, you know, someone's um whether they're telling the truth? And um, you know, this is where things like data privacy can come into play as well. If there is an open criminal investigation and someone might have, you know, searched um, you know, medication abortion that could be used in a later prosecution. So, you know, it it everything is still quite new. And so I think it's hard to know on a national scale really the frequency. Um, but there are valid concerns, especially like when you just think about it, like, well, what would you do in that situation, right?

[23:00] Sojourner Rivers: Right.

[23:00] Lauren Ranowski: And and it is and you know, I think I need to be very clear that like you know, medication abortion is completely safe, it is like completely safe and effective.

[23:10] Sojourner Rivers: Um, there are no, you know, all of the the researchers that you know approved this medication, like they knew what they were doing, and they're because apparently there's a question of whether or not it's safe, right?

[23:21] Lauren Ranowski: But it is, but with anything, there might be some small chance that something goes wrong, and then what do you do in that situation?

[23:30] Sojourner Rivers: And I'm so glad you're speaking to that because I think so many people are like, oh, big deal if it's banned in your state, you can still get you know the abortion pill shipped to you from the UK, and then you're fine, and you're like, Well, you are unless you're that tiny statistic where something went wrong, and then you have to go to the doctor, and they're allowed to kind of ask you for these invasive questions and potentially do invasive things to you to see if if you have these chemicals in your system.

[23:57] Lauren Ranowski: So I do think it's an important thing that we talk about when people try to dismiss the bans and talk about the workarounds, you know.

[24:06] Sojourner Rivers: And oh, I just wanted to build on something um that um you shared in terms of like the impact of the like doctors and the labor force and the health care.

[24:15] Sojourner Rivers: I have uh just anecdotally, because I agree, I think a lot of the statistics very often there's a lag from like when it happens and when we have big enough data to say something definitively. But my friend here in New York is a family physician who um does abortion care, and kind of just anecdotally, I was kind of asking her what she was seeing, and you know, she mentioned seeing like fewer other physicians who wanted to provide that care, and I was like wondering what that was about. She's like, Well, maybe they're traveling to other states, or like maybe they're you know, trying to figure out where they can do the most good. And I think that again, just is like the ripple effect, right? That we need to remember, again, particularly as someone who's you know based in New York, is that it still affects us all, right?

Like if folks are trying to flock to maybe states that they think you know has greater need because people are migrating from nearby band states, that still, you know, we shouldn't have to make those decisions. Physicians shouldn't have to make those decisions, like as communities, as societies, that should not be the place, you know, that that shouldn't be a trade-off because you know, as we all know, there's still access issues right here in states like New York, right? Crisis pregnancy centers, which kind of pretend to represent you know, holistic health care for folks who are pregnant, but actually discourage people from going having access to abortions, are very common in New York, right?

Um, and when you're talking about these ripple effects of like national bands that then shift where doctors want to be to provide care, the people who are left in New York who already had trouble access are gonna have even more trouble. Because right now they're fewer doctors, maybe who want to provide care here, right? And more people coming here, right? And so I also just like there, these are the things that are just again, as New Yorkers, speaking, you know, to that kind of that angle that we need to be aware about and also thinking about how we're impacted and how we can plug in right to this broader, you know, defense of abortion rights. People shouldn't have to have that trade-off.

[26:19] Tiffany Springle: Oh, absolutely. We also got a question um from um an audience member that was about does the morning after pill count as the abortion pill? And like what are the differences? And I know I've had I've heard this a few times too. Yeah, does medication abortion include the day after pill? Do you know what states are doing with morning after that? Okay, so yeah, this is definitely uh a hot question. People are definitely typically very confused about this. So medication abortion is something that is actively terminating a pregnancy, meaning that like the egg has already become fertilized. Um the day after pill is a preventative, it's a form of birth control. And so it is preventing the, if I remember correctly, I'm not a doctor, but preventing the egg from attaching to the uterine wall.

I believe so. But the core the core difference is that when you're taking a day after pill, there typically is not a pregnancy. It's this, it's the biologically virtually um identical to taking um any other form of contraception versus the medication abortion, which is um a way to terminate a pregnancy that has already begun.

[27:34] Sojourner Rivers: Well, thank you so much for clearing that up. And so Sojourner, I wanted to um comment on, I just know within my social circles of um people I know, I feel like as New Yorkers, uh, you feel like you're lucky uh compared to the rest of the country. And it really is um it it all affects affects all of us. And I so I'm really glad you talked about the nuance of how New York is especially affected, because I think that really is not something people are thinking about at all.

[28:08] Sojourner Rivers: No, yeah, no, thank you. And it's one of those things where, you know, we're proud to live in a state um that has, you know, more protections. And, you know, there have been some exciting wins, even on the kind of access to um birth control recently, right? That are really great. And we need to continue in the spirit of reproductive justice, right? To like things should be even more accessible, right? Um, and at the same time, we're not immune to the same kind of hostile attacks to this concept of bodily autonomy that you know that folks who can become pregnant, women, like gender non-conforming folks should have a say over their body. Um, we almost had, sorry, not to get too like in the policy weeds, but we almost had what is called the chief judge, which is like top judge in the state, who was very um anti-abortion.

Like this is New York State, right? And there are many um, you know, politicians, even on the city level who are opposed to abortion, right? So I think that's an important piece, like as we think about how we can support the movement and the work outside of New York, also remembering that we need to continue to be vigilant in New York.

[29:17] Tiffany Springle: And I was wondering, are you are we seeing an increased number of suicides? Are we seeing like in these states where people do not have access and are forced into kind of dire situations? Do we know?

[29:33] Sojourner Rivers: Right. So it's important to note that we um aren't experts by any means on the issues of mental health, but I will say that I found a study which is pretty interesting and it relates uh quite closely to this topic. Uh, this was a study published by Gemma Psychiatry uh last winter. So in this study, they were studying the association between increases in suicide rates as well as restrictions to abortion access. They found that in a certain time between while abortion restrictions started to increase, they also saw an increase in suicide rates. Interestingly, this trend was only identified among young people because they did not see the same trend among older women. And furthermore, it's, you know, it's very clear, especially as a social worker myself, that there's an extremely large amount of emotional trauma that a person might go through if they're experiencing an unwanted pregnancy as a young person.

And that is if it's consensual, right? And so we know that that's not always true. So there are definitely, you know, elements to this issue that disproportionately impact young people. Things like parental notifications, things like the Idaho Abortion Trafficking Bill. And I can talk a little bit about the Idaho Abortion Trafficking Bill because it's a really good example of, you know, just these specific ways that young people might be disproportionately impacted.

[31:03] Sojourner Rivers: So in Idaho, they recently passed a bill which has been colloquially referred to as the abortion trafficking bill, and it was designed by the National Right to Life as part of their post-dob strategy. It disguises the criminalization of interstate travel for abortion as an effort to further parental rights. This bill was specifically designed to target this travel for young people, particularly minors, of course. And so it requires that a person approve, you know, a parent approve that interstate travel for abortion. And the problem is that Idaho is already extremely restrictive for abortion with things like 24-hour waiting periods, pre-abortion counseling, funding limitations, and parental consent requirements.

And this bill currently doesn't restrict all interstate travel for abortion, but focuses on parental notifications for minors. And per the current law, they do have a few exceptions, things like in the cases of sexual assault or rape, or in the cases of life endangerment. Now, there are obviously many issues with you know that sort of exception. And as we mentioned before, no amount of exceptions will really be sufficient. And particularly in the case of sexual assault, particularly for minors, it's possible that, you know, if someone is experiencing something like incest, they may not feel comfortable telling their parent what has happened to them. And generally speaking, young people may feel more nervous to come forward, and regardless, no person should be required to come forward about what they've experienced.

It's extremely traumatic to have to relive what someone has experienced. And many people say that the process of filing a police report was actually more traumatic than what originally happened to them. So a lot of these oppositional bills, particularly in hostile states, the opposition often disguises their efforts by saying, you know, we have all of these exceptions. Like it's not happening to everybody, it's just select people, and they're trying to segment out who they're going to be harming, and as if that somehow justifies it. But the problem is that no amount of exceptions will really ever be enough, not only logistically, but also ideologically.

[33:24] Sojourner Rivers: And so it's really not as bad as doing it for every single person, is what they're trying to argue. It's really interesting, particularly with this Idaho abortion trafficking bill, um, about how sort of the national right to life is spinning it, because it's framed as a way to help protect the innocent victims of so-called abortion trafficking. But really, abortion trafficking doesn't exist, and it's just a way to take away someone's right to bodily autonomy and privacy. No one is obligated to tell any person when they have a healthcare procedure. And that should not, you know, be required just because someone is a minor. And so the last thing I'll add on this, because you know, I think I've spoken a lot now, but you know, the opposition is oftentimes saying, you know, again, how this doesn't apply to all abortions, that they're specifically targeting interstate travel for minors.

But it's possible that this may just be the first step in the longer goal of targeting interstate travel for abortions as certain states start to restrict access. Obviously, we can't say this for certain, but it's possible that you know, this is just a temperature check to see how something like this will go over before moving forward to target all interstate travel for abortion.

[34:46] Tiffany Springle: So many people on the ground were very upset about this bill and were, of course, very justified for that. And how long are we gonna ignore how many women have been assaulted? How long are we gonna ignore how often this happens. And then turn it around. And I I love your your language with disguise and calling out the terminology they are using and how manipulative it is. Because that's that's exactly what's happening. And it's it's also kind of what got us here in the first place. I remember talking to a lot of my incredibly conservative friends about Roe before you know it was overturned. And they're like, Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. Yeah. Of course I can vote conservatively. This will never happen. Yeah. So even in these states, like what you were just talking about in New York, like we can't just rest on our laurels and think that everything, because we're in a blue state now, will stay that way forever.

[35:37] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah. And I think again, about the disguising of language, even like you mentioned the exceptions of life-saving abortion. Like, as we just talked about, who decides it's a life-saving abortion, right? If people are forced into for unwanted pregnancies, and you just heard you know the data about people and the association with suicide, like actually that abortion may save someone's life, right? And so even then, it's still deter saying that someone else gets to determine what saves your life instead of you when you know what's best. And again, I think also to the point about like they try to start small and say, well, it's just these groups, right? And I think that's one of the lessons that again I've heard from great groups like pregnancy just and other reproductive justice groups.

[36:22] Sojourner Rivers: Why we need to be in solidarity with each other, because maybe today it's just that group that they want to make it difficult for. That used to be the language, right? The exceptions for incest and for rape survivors. And now we have Republicans trying to push on a national level, you know, a ban that would not be protective of incest survivors and rape survivors, right? So, like again, I think we have to also stand firm, right? And like it doesn't matter, right? But it doesn't matter why someone wants it. You don't know what's going to save someone else's life. It's not your, it's not your body, so it shouldn't be your decision. Like very basic. This is a great time, I think, to also go back to what we were talking about before and like how this is affecting marginalized communities.

And it's like, yeah, we see a high maternity death rate for women of color. And then on top of it, now it's you know, it's like it's just all amplifying. Can we let's speak if I can make one more note of something I'd like us to talk about? I mean so many. No, related to the um intersectionality. Um, the facts that I found, uh, one of them was related to that. Just starting at a very basic level, like with like regard to intersectionality and sort of why that's important. I think, you know, one of the the biggest uh distinctions that is important is sort of the distinction between like reproductive rights movements and rate versus like reproductive justice movements, and not to say that there isn't a place for reproductive rights because you know, that is the legal right to abortion and you know that directly impacts folks.

But when you talk about reproductive justice, it is also including the right to safely parent, it is including the right to have safe um and invested in communities. And so reproductive justice, it was a movement founded by black women for black women, acknowledging that the like traditional feminist movement was leaving behind black women, and so this is extremely important because reproductive justice um or reproductive oppression rather will always impact the most vulnerable first. Um, and so I think that it's important to sort of start with that, and because um, you know, when we're talking about intersectionality, all of these issues are so connected. And so, you know, reproductive justice is racial justice, is economic justice, is climate justice, you know, all of these things are so connected.

And at the root of reproductive oppression is typically, you know, white supremacy and the patriarchy. So when we're talking about, you know, maternal health and why that directly impacts, you know, black women more specifically or more pervasively, it's for the same reasons why black women are most impacted by criminalization, are most impacted by the family policing system. Uh it's all for the same reasons and it is misogynoir, which is like the specific, you know, uh sexism of black women. And so maternal um health also plays into sort of like obstetric racism and the doctor doctor's willingness to believe a person, you know, for the pain that they're experiencing to be the storyteller of their own experience and denying someone's the autonomy to decide what's best for their body.

Um, and so there really is a lot. There's a lot in there, and it's also connected. Um, and I think that, you know, the other component as far as like what are the things we're not thinking about, um, you know, I I think that the other component definitely would be like the gender justice component. So like the trans liberation movement and how like intrinsically connected that is to uh reproductive justice and that gender-affirming care is reproductive health care, like point blank. And so um we need to be very inclusive when we are thinking about reproductive justice and being inclusive with our language, um, with the way we talk about these issues, and that it's not only women um impacted, although like historically has been so gendered, it can be hard to sometimes like deprogram that in like our you know everyday speech.

It's so important to make the effort to acknowledge people that are gender conforming and people that are trans. And that was one of the main reasons why we did change our name, because this is something we long recognized before we changed our name that we that our name was excluding gender nonconforming people and trans folks.

[41:00] Tiffany Springle: What was your name before?

[41:02] Sojourner Rivers: Uh National Advocates for Pregnant Women. So we decided, I mean, that was it was our our founder, you know, and it was it's there's such a special place in all of our hearts for that, because it was a really a different era, but it was important to do the right thing and be inclusive, and so that any person, regardless of their gender, know they can reach out to us. And I think the more conversation we can have around not only acceptance, but also about teaching people how to be advocates for the gender, whether they conform or not conform. Like, how do you activate this activism? How do you fight on behalf of women? How do you fight on behalf of gender non-conforming folks? Like teaching, giving people the tools to really advocate and then learn how to become an activist, I think is so important.

[41:49] Sojourner Rivers: And I can I just add, I really appreciate you bringing reproductive justice into the space. And I just want to like share a definition because I think um, I think you know, obviously, we focus a lot on abortion in this conversation, but really the beauty, I think, of this kind of like black feminist intervention is expanding, right? Is that um the way patriarchy works for some communities may look different than others, and for to the kind of the history that Lauren mentions of black community, right? One of the primary forms of violence for us was forced, right? Was sexual violence, right? As a means of forcing reproduction, again, trigger warning, but also sterilization, right? And so one person, you know, and so the quote I'm going to share from Sister Song, um, one of the kind of leading pioneers and continue to be a leader in uh in the movement is um reproductive justice is the human right to maintain personal bodily autonomy, have children, not have children, and parent the children we have in safe and sustainable communities.

And again, it's such a beautiful offering for them because it also again is inclusive of kind of what Lauren was speaking to, and part of what we've been thinking about at the foundation. Like, how do we support trans folks, right? Like, how do we support trans children who are growing up in communities, right? Like our current, all these attacks are very connected to the attacks on abortion, right? Saying that people don't have, you know, like yes, healthcare, and it's also saying ultimately you don't have the right to decide what happens to you and who you are, right? Because how policymakers, right, see you is more important than how you see you, right? It's more important than how your community sees and loves you.

Right? And sorry, last plug Killing the Black Body by Dorothy Roberts was a book that like changed my life, and really, I will say I used to feel a little alienated by the abortion movement. I think more traditionally that felt very focused on specific experiences. And there it offered so much more of thinking about this continuum, right? It's not just about whether you have the child or not, you know, whether that decision is very important. It's also about are you able to raise those children? Is the family regulation system dividing you because they see you unfit because of your race, right? Um, our climate, right? There's so much amazing organizing that's happening that's saying if there's no planet to survive on, that is a reproductive justice issue, right?

Or thinking about like the criminal legal system. I saw you spoke to one of our grantee partners here in New York. If your parents are being taken away from you, right? And then you're forced into foster care, that's reproductive justice issue. So I think, and we know increased criminalization is going to make these issues worse, right? It's gonna make family separation worse. Um, so again, I think reproductive justice, I would also encourage your listeners who don't know what that is, learn about it. That's also how we are able to build solidarity amongst folks on a range of issues, right? Um, I wasn't always pro-abortion, but reproductive justice helped me understand a bigger framework to say, like, oh, actually, this isn't just about abortion, this is about so much more. I believe that people should be able to live lives with dignity.

[45:11] Lauren Ranowski: Absolutely. Also, just the funding and the lack of funding that goes into women's health issues, you know, like right now, we're seeing private healthcare only offer a pap smear every five years. It went from every year to every three years to now every five years. We have more HPV than ever, more women with cysts and fibroids, ultrasounds aren't a part of our preventative care. Like we are being completely neglected and then put in really dangerous situations while pregnant. I have a friend that just got pregnant, didn't know she's never missed her gynecology appointments, found out she had a giant fibroid. Now a natural birth is gonna be somewhat impossible for her. And so I think that yeah, there are all of these intersections.

We have not supported women's health or non-conforming folks. We've not supported health of people who could get pregnant. And now we're in, you know, not to diminish our hope. I know we're trying to keep our hope alive. But it's important to know that all of these, um, all of these little things affect the other. And so if you aren't comfortable, let's say you're not comfortable supporting abortion, and that's not your reproductive justice journey. There is still space for you in this movement. And I think that that's an important call to action because I think that we have a lot of women not being active in this, that we need to be active in this fight because they're, you know, because of the manipulative language that's been used kind of against them.

[46:38] Sojourner Rivers: If I can say one thing too, it's um, you know, it doesn't just stop when the baby is born and how we're talking about the inequality of everything. We already have a financial issue of um uh the middle class shrinking every year, just statistically, and um, you know, and the people who have access to uh basic health care, um, you know, the poorer you are, the more limited it is, which I think is why it is um related to the marginalized communities. But on top of that, I don't know why we're not having a conversation if if it is based in love. And that's the thing is every person can maybe be on a spectrum of their belief system. So the thing is I want to have those conversations with the people in the middle who don't really know what they want or they believe and talk about the nuance of it, but we're not having enough of a conversation of how can we lift up people and how can we like provide resources for, you know, if if you're if you believe that people should be raising families, why are we not figuring out ways to support the families that do exist and make things more comfortable for them and have more resources justice says we don't need to pit it against you know, you should be able to support your family and having say over what happens to your body, like that's what's beautiful about it's really ample, right?

It invites you in whether you celebrate your abortion or your abortion with something that saved your life in a tough time, there's space for all of that. And I think finding the commonality of like how do we take care of each other and what takes care of you is maybe different from what takes care of me, right? But that should be the common question as opposed to trying to control each other.

[48:11] Tiffany Springle: Right. And I think, you know, just on that, like I think when you're talking about like, you know, someone that's just getting started and like wants to know, like, how can I get involved? Like, what are things that I should keep in mind? You know, and I I think a lot about you know, avoiding like pitting generations against each other and sort of like the generational differences and like what feminism looked like for like my parents' generation and grandparents, and like, you know, I think for me it's all about holding my space, but also being willing to learn, standing into my power and you know, taking up space, but not being so um so so confident that I know everything all the time.

[48:52] Sojourner Rivers: And that's okay. Like, that's just like so like that's part of why, like, that's gonna win the war, like when we are willing to just learn from each other.

[49:02] Sojourner Rivers: Um, and I think that like on that note, like I think part of the reason why we are in this situation bec is because we maybe were so focused on abortion, right? Like the movement was so focused on abortion, it was neglecting intersectionality, it was neglecting black women, it was not thinking about you know, like the what happens after someone is born, right?

[49:26] Sojourner Rivers: And so that being more inclusive and more intersectional, I really hope like we'll achieve more success in this movement. Um, and if anything, like it's already creating a greater community. Um, we're becoming more resilient as activists.

[49:41] Sojourner Rivers: And I think that like we're realizing that like we can't be okay, because I think part of the white feminism, you know, why that's happening is sort of like the proximity to power sort of narrative.

[49:53] Sojourner Rivers: And I think everyone is starting to realize that like it always comes back. Yeah, you can sort of embrace your privilege and not think about people that have it worse. But at the end of the day, like it's still gonna get you, and it shouldn't be the reason why people care.

[50:08] Sojourner Rivers: It shouldn't. People can care about things even if it doesn't impact them. But I think that people are realizing like it's not good to just like and embrace, you know, the being the I'm not having it as bad.

[50:20] Sojourner Rivers: I think it was Clarence Thomas saying, like, and up for grabs next is marriage equality, up for grabs next is trans health care. And again, I think that's why there's more power in us, again, seeing like where is the commonality of that we think there's some basic human rights and like community like things that we all need, because maybe it's not you know your issue now, but it could be your issue tomorrow.

[50:44] Sojourner Rivers: And that's why there's power in us again, finding where you can plug in, if it's your local abortion fund, or if it's really, you know, canvassing and being really again thinking about your local politicians and are they pro-abortion and locally, and also they're also pro other gender justice things, right? Because we can't just have one, right?

[51:03] Sojourner Rivers: Again, it it it crop creates a crack that then could broaden and really impact us all.

[51:11] Tiffany Springle: I know. I think I'd also be remiss to not talk about how the Equal Rights Amendment didn't get passed.

[51:16] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah.

[51:17] Tiffany Springle: You know, we've been fighting for that for so long, and we had such high hopes. We had enough states to finally ratify it. And I think now, a year after the overturning, where we are, what are our hopes for next for the next year?

[51:32] Tiffany Springle: And where do we have like more of a call to action? Like I know that the New York Women's Foundation, I mean, you guys are so incredible. Like the different organizations that you guys have as grantees blow my mind.

[51:46] Tiffany Springle: We had we've we've just been such long time um fans of the work that you do. How can people get involved with an organization like yours that's so broad?

[51:57] Lauren Ranowski: So let's say this doesn't speak, this particular one doesn't speak to your heart yet. I love to say yet, because the more information you have, the way that your empathy grows is astronomical, and these will all be your issues one day.

[52:10] Tiffany Springle: Yeah.

[52:12] Lauren Ranowski: Um, I can start. Well, you can go to the NYWF.org. That's our website. Obviously, you could support us to be able to support great organizations like pregnancy justice, but also there are other ways to volunteer.

[52:25] Lauren Ranowski: We have ways that you can be a part of, you know, coming to our site visits, getting to know our grantee partners. Um, but definitely visit that website. And I want to make sure Lauren has time to talk about um kind of your call or the call to action that you're seeing and hearing.

[52:40] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah, um, I definitely echo that um for each out, plug in to the New York Women's Foundation. And I think for us, unfortunately, we don't do like volunteer opportunities.

[52:51] Sojourner Rivers: I really think that that's like the next step is because people want like tangible ways they can plug in. But I think just like given the theme that like Tiffany and Shay, like you guys are like really driving home that knowledge is power and like how much like this is so important to just like start with like reading and like learning.

[53:10] Sojourner Rivers: We do put out a ton of publications, but with resources, like we have a confronting pregnancy criminalization guide, um, and it's a multidisciplinary toolkit.

[53:19] Tiffany Springle: Um we have great, I've seen it.

[53:22] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah, it's really good, especially just for professionals that work at the intersections of pregnancy criminalization.

[53:28] Sojourner Rivers: Um, we also you can always give um monetarily to us. That's always helpful and appreciated.

[53:35] Sojourner Rivers: Um, we're on social media, you can tune in to see when we might be speaking at an engagement like this.

[53:41] Sojourner Rivers: Um, but also I think beyond that, like tuning in to um like our allying orgs, like there are so many great organizations doing this work, and a lot of them have volunteer opportunities or internships.

[53:55] Sojourner Rivers: We do we do internships as well, and we post that um every semester. So many ways to get involved. Just reach out, try, do something that makes you a little scared.

[54:05] Sojourner Rivers: Um, and I think it'll be rewarding when you feel like you're making a difference.

[54:10] Tiffany Springle: Oh, I see. And don't forget to vote.

[54:12] Sojourner Rivers: Don't forget to pro abortion.

[54:15] Tiffany Springle: We need that, you know, it has an impact as well.

[54:17] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah, the ERA is coming to New York, so you have a chance.

[54:22] Tiffany Springle: Um, I wanted to also ask you, is there anything closing that you wish for the people listening right now to like feel or like what are your hopes for where we are a year from now? You can choose either of those things.

[54:35] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah.

[54:35] Tiffany Springle: I'm trying to think of what the top thing is.

[54:37] Sojourner Rivers: You go, you go.

[54:38] Tiffany Springle: Okay, well, I think I just the thing that's coming to me is what a mentor told me once of just do the good where you are. And I hope that folks walk away with, like you said, more knowledge and feeling like tools and resources to learn more and to figure out what the good is where they are that they can do, whether that's at their work, whether that's you know, a friend who's going through an abortion and just encouraging them, whether that's figuring out how to do advocacy or donating to, you know, a great organization is think about, you know, it can be really overwhelming, like all the data and all the things we shared, but you can start with yourself, right?

[55:15] Sojourner Rivers: Um, and where you can, you know, be that encouraging ear, you know, encouraging person or start something new in your community, right? Like I think I hope people feel like there's opportunity for them to plug in right where they are.

[55:29] Tiffany Springle: Oh, that's beautiful.

[55:31] Sojourner Rivers: Yeah, um, I think I might cob out and do too. I think, you know, um, I think society really makes people with a capacity for pregnancy feel ashamed of everything that entails.

[55:44] Sojourner Rivers: And I think um starting to unpack that. Like, why are we ashamed of this body? Why are we taught to hate ourselves at such an early age?

[55:54] Sojourner Rivers: Like that inner work, just like kind of going off of that theme, Sejorner as well. And then I think also being loving and compassionate to the people close to you, because they might be going through some really um hard moments and the community that you can um develop with the people close to you um can sometimes make a really, really great impact um that might be overlooked all the time so tiff uh well i always lead with like the for me i am not an aggressive person so you know i fell into activism just because i care and i like to have these discussions um and i i come from comedy so i with comedy we're always kind of trying to figure out what's the unusual thing going on how can we like observe and like comment on that and so what I think is really interesting is that the aver every person has an opinion on this but most people don't even really have a foundational knowledge of what we're talking about the laws that are being affected you know um the history of um you know reproductive rights in the movement um talking about the other inequalities um and uh issues there so I really do think starting with just an education and and being curious and checking your own ego um because you may be a very liberal person and you have a long way to go too um with checking those uh um default settings that you may have that are based on society so um so I would just say start with yourself um you know be curious and then um look for the resources that you can that are not based in emotion like I said you know just start with what what is the facts what's actually going on here and then um empathize with those around you and listen.

[57:36] Tiffany Springle: I feel so honored to be able to have this discussion with really incredible brilliant women and I think there's so much power in us being able to talk like this and ask questions to each other and deep dive and investigate because we need to be the visionaries of the future that we're going to have.

[57:53] Tiffany Springle: And so um I want to encourage everyone listening to really add find your tribe of people and have difficult conversations and talk through your biases and your thoughts and and then also talk about the political happenings.

[58:14] Tiffany Springle: Keep yourself really informed what bills are being passed, what's happening in the state that you're in are you protected are, you know, and and then use that information to better yourself in the world.

[58:26] Tiffany Springle: So thank you guys so much for being here. Women of Tomorrow um is a foundation as well and and what we're trying to do is we have a community and it offers all kinds of different classes from what we call innervism to activism and doing the internal work necessary to know that you are worthy of the equality that you seek.

[58:47] Tiffany Springle: And it is open to um everyone that identifies as as she her and um and as we learn and as we grow I know that um our language will get even more expansive and that's so beautiful and our love will get even more expansive.

[59:03] Sojourner Rivers: So yeah.

[59:05] Tiffany Springle: I love that. Thank you guys so much. We will have all of the information that we talked about today in our show notes so you can support these wonderful organizations and you can hopefully volunteer with New York Women's Foundation.

[59:19] Tiffany Springle: I know that that's that's such a nice way to meet wonderful people.

[59:23] Sojourner Rivers: We'd love to have you yeah do it.

[59:28] Tiffany Springle: Thank you so much Tiffany you were such a great co-host and check out Roe vros.

[59:32] Tiffany Springle: My pleasure anytime.

[59:35] Sojourner Rivers: Oh great.

[59:36] Tiffany Springle: Love it.

[59:36] Sojourner Rivers: Okay, well I will I will definitely hold into that.

[59:39] Tiffany Springle: Yeah anytime.

[59:40] Sojourner Rivers: But yes, just like you were saying um at Roe v. Bros on uh Instagram and TikTok uh we do share our videos regularly and we usually talk about things that are not really being talked about um you know like for instance with Father's Day we just recently did a blurb just talking about paternity leave so I love your content it's awesome it's really really it's really cool thank you well how I was saying checking myself I'm always trying to figure out how to make it better and um you know uh lead with lead with good intention so I appreciate that all right everybody thank you so much thank you for tuning in thank you all thank you hey hey she came to play oh oh get out of her way and thank you mama thank you friend I got front roll seats to watch the queen ascend baby how you feelin' breaking that glass ceiling