This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back to You Can't SAY THAT and Part 2 of my conversation with Ifeanyichukwu 'Vop' Osili, City Council President of Indianapolis, Indiana.

[0:30] Ifeanyi Osili: Unfortunately, it is. One out of five in the city of Indianapolis, 20% of our population is considered by federal standards as poor.

[0:41] Tonya Pinkins: And do you have a lot of Walmarts there?

[0:44] Ifeanyi Osili: Not a lot of Walmarts, no. But we do have the Walmarts here. And we've got a lot of devastation from COVID and the closing of businesses. Here's something else. We also have a lot of abandoned properties that we own, you know, surplus properties. And so we have a new treasurer coming in who just got elected, who is of a like mind that we've got to find ways to put those properties back on the tax rolls with people who live in those communities. And how do we prioritize them as either owners or bidders and so on? We have an issue also with gentrification here. And because, as I said, we don't have home rule, we cannot mitigate property taxes in areas that are undergoing rapid reinvestment.

[1:29] Tonya Pinkins: So now I don't understand what home rule is. Tell me what home rule is now.

[1:34] Ifeanyi Osili: Um, meaning that when it comes to our taxes, property taxes, our income taxes, we have limitations that are put on us by the state, and the state can say, no longer are you allowed to, in fact. If we want to raise taxes, they've given us a limit. You can raise taxes from, you know, 0.00 something to, you know, one point something, right? If we ever wanted to go beyond that, we have to get permission from the state.

[2:00] Tonya Pinkins: Is that the governor?

[2:01] Ifeanyi Osili: No, the state legislature. But the governor signs off on it. So there was a year, for example, when we wanted to stop, like I think it was a smoking ban, and we couldn't do that independently without permission from the state. I mean, there were a number of things that the state has to basically say, if they say no, you can't do it. Oh, how's this? Ban the box, right? We created the first ban the box policy in the state of Indiana, which basically meant if you want to do business with the city of Indianapolis, right? You as a company have to eliminate the box on your application forms. Now, we don't have a 90 billion dollar budget like New York City does. We have a 1.0 billion dollar budget.

But however, it is a billion dollar budget. So if you want to do business with the city of Indianapolis, you have got to remove the box on your application forms and ask about criminal history. At least on that first interview, there are to be no questions about it. If the person is, if you call them back for a second interview, it's open season. But you're not making the determination and using that checkbox as a default, you know, or as a proxy for you to weed out those folks who you think may be undesirable.

[3:05] Ifeanyi Osili: So the state intervened in year three and said, no municipality, no unit in government in the state of Indiana can adopt a ban the box policy, just like that. Just like that. So even the city of Indianapolis, we had begun to hire in the hundreds of folks who had criminal records, because you have no idea what was behind that criminal record. I could have gotten that criminal record for reckless driving, right? It does not mean, however, that I'm not an asset when it comes to accounting. But you won't hire me because I don't know how to drive. Don't hire me then as your delivery person, because you know that's a bad move, right? But you basically have limited all of that talent. It's ridiculous. So the state basically, because we don't have home rule and can determine our own policy and stand on them, the state can say, no more, you're not allowed to do it. That's over.

[3:55] Tonya Pinkins: So how can Indianapolis, the city, the capital city, get home rule?

[4:01] Ifeanyi Osili: It would require a legislature that would permit that in perpetuity. And we don't know how to do that.

[4:07] Tonya Pinkins: So you have to get more people who are Democratic on the legislature?

[4:12] Ifeanyi Osili: Exactly. Out of 50 state senators, we only have 11.

[4:15] Tonya Pinkins: How about that?

[4:16] Ifeanyi Osili: So we are in the super minority in both chambers in the state house. We are in the super minority in both chambers.

[4:25] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, so who's working on that?

[4:30] Ifeanyi Osili: We tried this election. I mean, we did get an additional senator; it took us from 10 to 11, right? It is a slow process. It just takes folks understanding that we're not socialists, we're not as a body trying to defund the police. All of those things that they threw on us to try to marginalize our voices, to say these are radicals and irrational people and so on. It requires us to have a steady pace with a steady argument that we are for sound policy, and we come in all ranges, not just in terms of color, but in terms of ideology, from conservative to moderate to liberal.

[5:13] Ifeanyi Osili: So I'm not a politician, and I don't think I could ever be a politician because I'm too blunt. So, you know, my idea, and you can tell me where my ideas are on. I just feel like if any government just made sure that all the people in their, you know, under their jurisdiction had home and food and work, then, you know, everybody would just be good. We wouldn't even have to have Democratic and Republican because people would just be taken care of, and they would feel like my government takes care of me. I mean, that's sort of how the Norwegians speak about having royalty. They feel a little delusional to me too. But what keeps us as different jurisdictions from just taking care of the people within the borders of your jurisdiction?

[6:05] Ifeanyi Osili: Um, because then we get labeled with that title that most people don't even understand. Look at those socialists, they're trying to take money out of your pocket, your hard-earned money to go feed those people who should be working anyway, etc. Well, see, now labor is the only thing that makes capital. Okay, labor makes capital. Why should Walmart be able to pay people money that requires them to still have to get welfare and food stamps? Why until we let that happen? I'm sorry. When I mentioned a moment ago Smoky Man wasn't smoking man, it was minimum wage. When we tried to implement a minimum wage here in Indianapolis, oh that hands lap still stays today. So when you talk about the minimum wage thing, we would love to be able to implement one here, just as they're planning to do in Florida. We would love to be able to do that. We're nowhere near it because we have a number of rural communities that don't quite understand, I think some of the challenges of the urban environment.

[7:04] Ifeanyi Osili: Now think about it. 50 state senators, only 11 are Democrats, and most of those 11 either come from the Lake County region, which is Gary and Hammond and places like that, or Indianapolis. The rest of the state oftentimes does not understand those challenges. And of course, we have issues with gerrymandering. So undoing the gerrymandering and trying to come up with a system that we will abide by that will allow for true representation of the people who are in our state would be a first step or a second step. Something that would permit sort of an equitable distribution of those voters. It's just not gonna happen yet.

[7:51] Tonya Pinkins: Why do you even like doing this? You're an architect, you're a good architect, you're building things around the world. Why would you switch to this messy, dirty, rolling around with the pigs thing?

[8:02] Ifeanyi Osili: Because it's about creation and creation of something that is beautiful and the belief that we can do it. The fact that the very fact that we can improve a life to me is spectacular. I was here in this office in the City County building last night until 9 o'clock. Just knowing that every moment that I can take to focus on a policy or a change is going to improve somebody's life. I can't tell you why that excites me. I have no idea why that excites me.

[8:30] Tonya Pinkins: It excites you more than designing a building and seeing it go up?

[8:33] Ifeanyi Osili: Just a different kind of excitement. Now, I still love that, you know. I still love creation. I think it's about creation and just knowing we can do something. We could sit here and by default press a red button or a green button, you know, be very transactional and then go home and get paid, right? For being elected officials, or we can actually do something about it. And this is the time and this is the year of all times in my entire life. And Tonya, you know, we're about the same age, right? I thought you were older than me. I can't believe you're younger than me.

[9:03] Tonya Pinkins: You didn't know that, girl.

[9:04] Ifeanyi Osili: No. Yeah, I started college at 17. So it just for the first time in my entire life. I see that this opportunity, this door is open here in the United States of America, and I want to take advantage of it because we probably won't get another. And those people that I see in my own district, the impact that COVID has had, the overrepresentation of people of color in our hospitals, you know, those folks who are frontline, how they've been impacted, the job losses. It has been tremendous for black and brown people in my city.

[9:42] Tonya Pinkins: So what can you do? You just said you don't have home rule. You can't even do anything. That would make me mad.

[9:46] Ifeanyi Osili: Well, no, no, no, we can do it. Now, how do we not get our hands slapped? That's the thing. And that's why I go back to what I said earlier. It is sitting down in a room. If there are four out of ten folks in the room who are somewhat rational, they can become allies who can then spread some of that sort of moderate quality to maybe one or two others. So we get a majority.

[10:10] Tonya Pinkins: I want to understand the objection to a minimum wage. I want to understand. I mean, you're saying the rural people don't understand the city people need to make. I mean, to me, $15 an hour is still too low. That's not enough.

[10:24] Ifeanyi Osili: Of course, of course. It's probably not even livable wage. I mean, especially if you have a family, right? It's not. And I don't want to label our folks out in, you know, in our rural areas as being insensitive or anything like that. There are just certain challenges that go with being in a city with the density and the kind of unemployment and then the clusters of unemployment that maybe if you don't live in that kind of environment, you just don't understand those challenges. And so I think of the Midwest as people who think about taking care of their neighbors. And you know, when I grew up, my friend in Kankakee, her family took somebody in that was homeless. My family used to take in different immigrants.

Like there was this sense of you just have more than you need and you share it. And that's what I think of as a Midwestern kind of value. So in a way, I sort of like it isn't congruous with me as a Midwesterner to think that Indianapolis don't, or Indiana's don't have that sort of Midwestern sharing kind of value. So I just go to this kind of bigotry place, and how do you rationalize bigotry and just being a good neighbor? Okay, so we have this thing called who's your hospitality, right? We talk about it all the time. We're hospitable. We're really nice, right? There is also a belief that if you're not working, it's because you probably aren't trying hard enough. So we don't want to reward you if you're not carrying your own load.

And that may be a part of the belief about sort of the urban environment here. That we've got a bunch of folks who live in these clusters, nobody's working, or a few people are working, or there's, you know, there's an outbreak of this or that that is disproportionate in that community. Well, maybe some of that might be y'all kind of making those things happen. That's when it comes back to us having an awakening that we share with those who are in the majority here in our state. That some of the stuff that we're going through right now is a result of the decisions that you and your fathers and grandfathers made some generations ago. When, for example, you decided we're gonna put a red line around this community over here, and we're gonna change the zoning laws because we need some places to put our new factories.

And you know what? Your spot looks just delightful. And no, we kind of don't want to live, uh we don't want you living over here because this is where we live, you know what I'm saying? So, uh we're kind of getting used to seeing you living in these kind of conditions, and we don't want that over here. All kinds of stuff that go along those lines. There is that normalization of racism in our state and in our city that we have to come to. That's when you can start having rational discussion. When you can show that guys, this didn't just happen. This was, I don't see that this conversation you have is no movement. I think they would just sit and go. Look at that handsome black man, and he's so he's one of them nice little black men.

He's so he's so neat and clean. Now, if this little black man moved into our neighborhood, it would be okay. We talk about them ones over there. We don't like them that wear their head in weird kind of crazy ways. This is a nice black person. I don't have any problem with him. There may be some of that that goes on at the end of the day, however, you cannot refute data, and you cannot refute our council first of all, of course. Indiana's refuting data right now. They're saying that the state Indianapolis, we are not. Indiana is your state is we do not have a single elected official in the city of Indianapolis who is anything but a Democrat. No, we got it here. It's our job now to spread that love across the state with the So, how are your electors gonna go on the 14th?

Well, the way they went at 6:09 p.m. when we were the first one called in the country. Our doors closed at six. We was we would call it in 609. We ain't got to, you know, talk about not counting votes, right? We didn't even have to count votes here. It was just listen, don't just can we just give it to 609 just so it looks credible, you know what I'm saying? So, uh our electors, all 11 electors are going to go for Donald J. Trump. There's no choice about that. That was predicted long, long ago. And is that because the majority of the population of the state, so Indianapolis is not the majority population of the state? No, our state has just under seven million people. Indianapolis has just under one million people.

So we are basically one-seventh of the size of a state. And what about Gary? Gary's gotta be a big black state, big part, big black city. It is. I mean, Gary and the Northwest region probably have all together close to a million. No, no, it's not the that's that that's not right. Between 500 and 750,000 individuals. We aggregate them all together, but then you got the rest of the state. Five-sevenths of the state is not part of that pocket, and so five-sevenths of the state basically still moves policy. I just go back to this, Tanya. We have to have those straight-up conversations that we gotta normalize. We gotta racist country. And well, bring me in. You know, I'll have some straight-up conversations.

I know you will, honey. So now when I need a nuclear weapon, I'm calling you, right? But until as long as conventional warfare can at least get us to the table. We ain't trying to blow some stuff off. Right? You know, that's that's the way we work here in Indianapolis. Let's at least get conventional warfare, let's get into people, you know, stand on your arms. That conventional warfare can be slow. It does, yeah. But you know what? Something else, too. Something else we learned this year, I learned this year. We moved so fast in the city of Indianapolis to move that those COVID dollars to stand up those COVID dollars for we moved like millions of dollars, for example, of small businesses, right, through our chamber of commerce.

75% of those dollars went to black and women-owned businesses. 75% because we've started this discussion right now that others are buying into that it's not we need to look, in fact, intentionally for opportunities to help companies that have a history of being in distress that are from communities that historically have been distressed. And if we're not doing it intentionally, then we need to be doing it intentionally. And we have 75% of those dollars. We weren't playing. I mean, got that stood up in a matter of weeks. The chamber got on board in a matter of weeks. You know, we approved that, you know, those dollars with those caveats. You have got to have the outreach to those communities in the city of Indianapolis, where you know we have businesses, where they're the most challenging, challenged.

So, where is your COVID surge happening right now? Around the state. So we're at about a 14% positivity rate. You know, Indianapolis had kept it low up until about a week or two before Thanksgiving. We were, you know, in the five to six percent in Indianapolis. But the rest of our state right now, and I think we're probably at, you know, nine or ten or eleven. I don't know our local numbers this week, but the state of Indiana as a total is 14%. And you know, South Dakota was the number one state per capita, you know, for COVID. I think we might have just edged them out. This is not the place where I want us to be number one, right? But we had done well, and our governor had been, I think, wise and sensible in the precautions that were required.

Um, but folks haven't taken it seriously. Folks have not. So what do you do about that as a politician? How do you get people to take it seriously? And how do you get people, especially brown people, to even consider a vaccine? Taking a vaccine when you know medical apartheid is just the history of America. Um, you have to do, you have to have the folks in leadership, folks who are trusted, take it as an example. You just have to. I don't trust nobody. I ain't taking no, I'm not taking no vaccine. Yeah, I know. I don't know what's in it. I know something is killing. I got friends who say they don't believe in COVID. I'm saying that it don't matter if you believe in it, it's killing people. I don't, I just know I don't want to get it.

I don't want to get it in a vaccine either. I'm gonna take the vaccine when it becomes available, and you know, whenever it becomes available, and I know that we've taken care of our first responders, our elderly, you know, those who are in communities that otherwise would have been ignored, you know, are you? And you're giving it to your wife and children too? Yes, I would plan to, yes. I definitely would. The few things I heard about today were just, you know, allergic reactions in the UK. But we're not even sure kind of sort of what the underlying issues were. I mean, there are no preservatives in, you know, in these vaccines. There are no animal products in these vaccines. It could have just been something that was co-occurring.

But nonetheless, I would take it, yes. Well, I mean, but the fact is I was talking to someone from one of the big testing labs, and they say that the proportion of brown and Latina people that are dying of COVID is not explained by comorbidities or lack of access to health care. That there is something else going on with COVID in the black and brown community. You're talking about genetically at the cellular level I know they're starting to investigate whether there's something genetic going on. So a vaccine that's simulating it, you know, that doesn't seem that doesn't sound like a good plan for me. Yeah. But I do believe that comorbidity plays a large role in this. I mean, there's some genetic factors that there are just some current health factors that have been generational that make us far more vulnerable.

I mean, you know, my aunt Joyce, you know my aunt Joyce her son Michael, yeah her son Michael went in for a job and they tested him for the job and he had active asymptomatic COVID. He was fine but you know who many how who knows who he spread it to I was sharing that with someone they said they didn't even believe such a thing existed. So the disinformation I just, you know, I don't I don't have a lot of faith Bob you're enthusiastic you're passionate I know you could sell a bear's fur off of him but I believe in this stuff and I know that we can get it done. If I didn't believe it, I should not people don't I just it's what gets me up in the morning to be frank with you it does it is what gets me up in the morning.

[20:53] Ifeanyi Osili: Not always happily but it's what gets me up in the morning. But this example you just gave, my fraternity brother is the health commissioner for Gary. He brought his mom and dad up from Mississippi because he, you know, he wasn't sure about the healthcare there. You know, he and his wife are both physicians. It ended up, he was asymptomatic and gave it to both his parents. His mother ended up having, you know, two strokes because of it. I mean, it's just, it was he was covered in the New York Times, in fact. And I feel for him, just because of that, you don't know, but it is real and it is out there. And at least I would think that folks who lose a physician asymptomatic, so he gave it to his parents, but not to his wife.

Did he give it to other patients? I don't know. We just know he's confident that he was responsible for his parents getting it. And the irony of it, the health commissioner himself, and not even knowing that he had it. So he was getting tested regularly, but between those tests is when he found out. And yeah, it's scary. See, now this to me feels like this should have been the national news, and that alone should have made all of Indiana go, we're wearing our masks. Oh okay, what did I just tell you? So five sevenths of our state, right, is red. You think okay, I know I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. Your health commissioner got asymptomatic COVID. What, I'm assuming he's white? No, no, this is the Gary Health Commissioner.

No, he's black. He's not white. Okay, well, maybe that's why they wouldn't believe him. No, for a lot of people it's just not real. It's just, uh, it's a hoax. This is what disinformation from the top looks like when you deny something that you know is real, and then the people who look up to you as an example decide that they're going to follow you. How can you stay happy? Why aren't you enraged and screaming? Like I've already done that. I've already done it. And it didn't move, it didn't get me to action. It just enraged me. And it's like, I it's better if I just keep a cool head and work as coolly as I possibly can in a rational manner with those people who make decisions.

[23:00] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, you've always been good at that, though.

[23:02] Ifeanyi Osili: Yeah. Because when I lose my temper, then I don't get anything done. It just causes me to like, I just I can't get it done. So I've seen that temper, I do know.

[23:16] Tonya Pinkins: So yeah, oh yeah, oh okay. Right on it. So it's just if I want to make progress and hope that we can make progress with, you know, with allies or future allies, then it's gotta be an international means of having that discussion and then putting the facts out and then letting someone who doesn't want to believe the facts defend the old system. And it's really hard to defend something when the facts are right there and the impact of those decisions are right in front of you.

[23:45] Tonya Pinkins: Well, you're passionate, you're attractive, you're articulate, you're intelligent, you're talented. I'm betting on you for the mayor of Indianapolis. But I think you gotta go higher.

[23:56] Ifeanyi Osili: Oh, you know, I never fully understood what happened with your Secretary of State run.

[24:04] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, yes, that's right. I was a Democratic nominee for Secretary of State in 2010. Actually, you know what's funny? Pete Buttigieg was the treasurer candidate. So we ran on the same ticket. My ticket got challenged. We challenged the guy who won because he committed vote fraud. Now, how about this? The irony of this? The Secretary of State is the chief elections officer. The guy who ran for it on the Republican side won and was charged and convicted of six felonies for vote fraud. How about that? So we took it to the Supreme Court, and by the time, so it, the election just wouldn't stop, right? The election was November 2010. We were still in court in the Supreme Court as of February 2012. He was removed from office by state statute.

I was then to be the next Secretary of State. So for one brief shining moment, I was technically the Secretary of State. But my colleagues on the other side of the aisle said, yeah, we don't think so. Not today. Right. And let's not worry about the Court of Appeals. Let's just take it to the Supreme Court. And so the court, as opposed to following what had been the state norm, decided to give it to the governor to make the selection. The time, there was something about the time issue, and it was, and you didn't think this was some racist shit. You wouldn't like screaming racist, racist, racist. But you know, my voice is a little deeper than when you knew me back in college. And it came from having ripped probably a lot of vocal cords.

Yeah, it was like I think most of the folks who followed politics in those days were they made some new rules so you could not be the Secretary of State. Yeah, the governor made the selection. The Republican governor was given the opportunity to make the selection then in that race. How about that?

[26:15] Tonya Pinkins: That was, I admire your tenacity, your positivity. Like, I feel like that's what I'm doing with this movie. People throw stones in your path, you pick it up, so clearly you are loving it, you are doing what you are supposed to be doing. And I'm just grateful to you for coming and spending the time to talk with me. My next movie, I'm a shoot in Africa. I want to shoot on the African continent.

[26:38] Ifeanyi Osili: Okay, well, I want to be part of it.

[26:41] Tonya Pinkins: And I wouldn't. Hook me up to make my movie over there. I think I might know one or two people. I think I might be. Because I actually, okay, Africa and okay player probably gonna want to do a profile on you, you know, about RED PILL. And then I want to make my next movie in Madagascar. It's my spider movie.

[27:00] Ifeanyi Osili: My spider movie.

[27:02] Tonya Pinkins: My spider horror movie. I've been there. It's beautiful.

[27:04] Ifeanyi Osili: I've never been there. They got the golden orb weaver spider. And I want to make my spider movie there.

[27:12] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, I love it. I love it. So it's an honor. And I always have a blast being around you. You are just like, you know, you know how long it's been, right? It has been 40 years. You know that, right?

[27:24] Ifeanyi Osili: Yes, been 40 years.

[27:24] Tonya Pinkins: And you still look pretty.

[27:29] Ifeanyi Osili: Yeah, about a hundred pounds fatter.

[27:32] Tonya Pinkins: You look the same, same beautiful sculptural body. No one can see us. They can just hear us having this wonderful conversation. But um, I actually, I Sarah Stangel did a podcast with me talking about why she, when I talk about white people, I'm not talking about her as white as she is with that white hair and white skin.

[27:58] Ifeanyi Osili: Did she mean that?

[27:59] Tonya Pinkins: Did she? No? We both mean that. I do mean that because Sarah is, you know, I don't know if you've ever seen my race cards, but Sarah designed the race cards that I had when we were doing Rashida speaking. She's, you know, that's why she's still my girl. Me and Sarah.

[28:16] Ifeanyi Osili: Well, I'm gonna let you get back to running the world in Indianapolis and making the world a better place for the people of Indianapolis. I truly admire your passion and your positivity.

[28:29] Tonya Pinkins: This is Tonya Pinkins. Thank you. You're listening to You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales. And our recording producer today is Brittany Bigelow. Thank you for listening. And stay safe, wear a mask, they save lives.

[28:48] Ifeanyi Osili: When you meet no.

[28:52] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales. Edited by Derek Gunther with music by Kat Dail. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream. Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins. And to learn more, visit BPN dot F M forward slash Y C S T.

[29:36] Ifeanyi Osili: Stay safe.

[29:40] Tonya Pinkins: You is kind. You were smart. You is important. You is dead. Tonya Pinkins's horror film RED PILL brings African American perspective to the progressive movement. We are a majority in this country. And we're gonna wait the election. Do you know what the red pill is? A red pill is someone who infiltrates a group and then destroys them from the inside. This place is spooky. Some people like to live dangerously. Yes, why are you so jumpy tonight? You know what, guys? I'm gonna go back tomorrow. Did you hear about the creature woman that attacked a father and son hunting down here? I don't see the case. This place creeps me out. I think we should call the sheriff's office. The only people missing or dead are brown people. They're after all of us. What do we do, Amelia? We die. But we take some of them with us.