This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, my name is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to my podcast, You Can't SAY THAT, the Podcast Where You Can on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:13] Tonya Pinkins: If you're of a certain age, you remember learning about the world, sitting at the feet of your family, or being in the other room and listening in.

[0:27] Tonya Pinkins: And you found out about your community by just eavesdropping on the conversations of the adults around you.

[0:34] Tonya Pinkins: And you even found out about people who didn't share your values by the bill collectors who came to the house or listening to one side of conversations where you could sense the tension of a family member.

[0:47] Tonya Pinkins: But now that everybody texts, we don't get to have that very often.

[0:52] Tonya Pinkins: And our lives are very curated by who we decide we want to talk to, follow, or listen to.

[1:00] Tonya Pinkins: So I have loved, you know, that community of people who are different from me.

[1:06] Tonya Pinkins: And I curate relationships, I guess, with people who don't share my point of view.

[1:12] Tonya Pinkins: And that would bring me to my next guest.

[1:16] Tonya Pinkins: We tend to disagree about everything.

[1:19] Tonya Pinkins: We've known each other for gosh, a long time, since high school.

[1:19] John Franklin: Since high school.

[1:58] John Franklin: Hi, Tonya, thank you.

[2:00] John Franklin: Thank you.

[2:00] John Franklin: It's a pleasure to see you.

[2:01] John Franklin: How are you doing?

[2:03] Tonya Pinkins: I am, I guess today I'm trying to figure out like who's benefiting from all the coronavirus hype.

[2:10] Tonya Pinkins: What's the word like there in Chicago?

[2:14] John Franklin: Well, you know, being in that age group where it affects people the most now, 60, of course I'm concerned about it.

[2:22] John Franklin: My wife's concerned about it.

[2:24] John Franklin: And you know, a lot of my friends are like me, retired police officers.

[2:27] Tonya Pinkins: So uh but don't y'all get a little extra information, like you're in a club that don't y'all get the real story that we don't get in the media.

[2:34] John Franklin: No, believe it or not, we're just now starting to get to move the needle forward on that in that part regarding prevention techniques or whatever prevention clothing, you know, to do to prevent catching this or spreading it around.

[2:55] John Franklin: So it's interesting.

[2:57] John Franklin: It's scary times, obviously, because nobody wants to get it.

[3:01] John Franklin: And being in the age group where it affects people the worst, of course I'm apprehensive about it, you know.

[3:06] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I feel like I want to get it and recover from it, so then I have the antibodies.

[3:11] John Franklin: Well, let's hope that happens.

[3:13] John Franklin: You know, but we are still seeing fatality.

[3:17] John Franklin: So I mean, it's scary.

[3:19] John Franklin: I mean, I've been following Tom Hanks and his wife getting it.

[3:23] John Franklin: We're in that same age group as them.

[3:24] John Franklin: And it's scary stuff.

[3:27] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, well, let's forget about that.

[3:29] Tonya Pinkins: Let's talk about policing.

[3:31] Tonya Pinkins: So I don't know if you know this, but July 13, 2013 was a day that changed my life.

[3:39] Tonya Pinkins: Um, it was, I remember exactly where I was.

[3:42] Tonya Pinkins: I was in the lobby of the public theater.

[3:44] Tonya Pinkins: Um, I had met a writer right there in the thing.

[3:47] Tonya Pinkins: We had just heard that Zimmerman was acquitted for the death of Trayvon Martin.

[3:57] Tonya Pinkins: And as a mother of three black boys, it was so devastating.

[4:04] Tonya Pinkins: And so, even though I fully expected that would happen, it was so unacceptable to me as a person, as a mother, that I made this personal vow that I was not gonna protect white people's feelings anymore.

[4:20] Tonya Pinkins: And what that really meant for me was that I feel like, at least for me, most black people I know are always going around having to watch white people living in this sort of bubble of what the world is like and having to pretend while they're with them that the world that they are living in is one that they're living in.

[4:42] Tonya Pinkins: And I was just like, no, not doing it anymore.

[4:45] Tonya Pinkins: And I've always been a person who was giving you a little dose of the truth, but then it was like, no, you're just getting it straight on the way most people I'm around see it.

[4:55] Tonya Pinkins: I'm not gonna enter into this pretend world that maybe is really your world, but the most of us don't live in it.

[5:01] Tonya Pinkins: So that got me to talking to you, John, because you I thought he's blue, he's gonna be on my side, but no, you are blue, blue, blue through and through.

[5:10] John Franklin: No, I'm not.

[5:11] John Franklin: Listen, I'm blue and I'm also black.

[5:14] John Franklin: And I've lived, you know, I've walked that line in both worlds all my life, being a cop and being a black man in a while.

[5:20] John Franklin: In Chicago, you know, my father was a police officer in Chicago.

[5:23] Tonya Pinkins: I know, I know.

[5:24] John Franklin: Um, I'm the only member of my family that's ever been in the police department, so this was all new to me.

[5:30] John Franklin: Regarding Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman, you know, emotionally, we think it's terrible anyway.

[5:36] John Franklin: Anytime a black child has to die or pay the ultimate sacrifice by in a violent encounter, and it's shameful.

[5:44] John Franklin: Uh Zimmerman had a lot of issues with that incident.

[5:47] John Franklin: Uh he initiated it by calling in on Trayvon, calling the police on Trayvon and Trayvon hadn't committed any crime other than you know being black and being suspicious to Zimmerman.

[6:00] John Franklin: At the same time, the dispatcher told Zimmerman, you don't need to follow him.

[6:05] John Franklin: We know all the facts.

[6:06] Tonya Pinkins: What do you think about this verdict?

[6:09] John Franklin: But remember, and this is the part that a lot of people fail to understand.

[6:15] John Franklin: Trayvon Martin was fearful noticing Zimmerman following him.

[6:19] John Franklin: And Zimmerman obviously had no police training, was doing a pretty lousy job of trying to make himself inconspicuous.

[6:25] John Franklin: At the same time, if Trayvon was fearful of Zimmerman following him, and he called his girlfriend.

[6:32] John Franklin: If Trayvon, Mr. Young Man, Mr. Martin, being fearful of some you know, strange man, white man following him who didn't know, he didn't know what the purpose was.

[6:44] John Franklin: Really should have called the police.

[6:46] Tonya Pinkins: Call the police.

[6:47] John Franklin: Called the police, please.

[6:49] John Franklin: He should have.

[6:50] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, come on.

[6:50] Tonya Pinkins: No.

[6:51] John Franklin: Come on.

[6:51] John Franklin: Listen, he knew the police wasn't showing up in time to help him anyway.

[6:55] John Franklin: Listen, he's 17.

[6:56] John Franklin: I don't know what he knew or didn't know.

[6:57] John Franklin: But I'm not gonna call my girlfriend if some man is following me and I'm fearful of his intentions or his purpose.

[7:02] Tonya Pinkins: But let me tell you, I don't call the police for anything.

[7:04] Tonya Pinkins: And if they knock on my door, I'm not answering.

[7:07] John Franklin: What could his girlfriend have done to help him call in?

[7:09] John Franklin: She would have been a witness, a truthful witness.

[7:12] John Franklin: Yeah, she didn't help him.

[7:14] John Franklin: The police could have helped him.

[7:15] Tonya Pinkins: How would the police help him?

[7:16] John Franklin: He may have been on the phone.

[7:17] John Franklin: He was in 911.

[7:18] John Franklin: If you if he had called the police, Tonya.

[7:20] John Franklin: First of all, he wouldn't have gotten the police.

[7:21] John Franklin: He would have gotten 911, right?

[7:24] John Franklin: Tonya.

[7:26] John Franklin: If you call the police, police might have said, listen, we got a call in that same area.

[7:30] John Franklin: We're gonna be there shortly.

[7:30] John Franklin: Look out for us.

[7:31] John Franklin: We got a squad car in your area right now, coming in that direction.

[7:34] Tonya Pinkins: So you think it's Trayvon's fault for not calling the police?

[7:37] John Franklin: I didn't say it was his fault.

[7:38] John Franklin: I'm saying he reacted improperly.

[7:41] Tonya Pinkins: But I would not ever tell my children to call the police for anything.

[7:45] John Franklin: I do.

[7:46] Tonya Pinkins: Why did you not tell them to do that?

[7:48] John Franklin: Because I don't trust the police.

[7:50] Tonya Pinkins: My father was a police.

[7:51] Tonya Pinkins: I don't trust the police.

[7:53] John Franklin: Look what he did.

[7:54] John Franklin: He attacked Zimmerman, banging his head on the ground.

[7:57] John Franklin: He attacked Zimmerman.

[7:57] John Franklin: The man had a gun.

[7:59] John Franklin: He attacked Zimmerman, which left Zimmerman with no choice but to fire upon him.

[8:04] Tonya Pinkins: Are you kidding me?

[8:06] John Franklin: That's what happened, Tonya.

[8:08] Tonya Pinkins: Were you there?

[8:09] John Franklin: Tonya, that is what happened.

[8:11] John Franklin: So he initiated You're saying Trayvon Martin initiated the attack.

[8:15] John Franklin: He did initiate the attack.

[8:17] John Franklin: And remember, they had their controversial stand your ground law.

[8:21] Tonya Pinkins: So here's here's no no no no, listen.

[8:25] John Franklin: Just be reasonable.

[8:26] John Franklin: Here is Zimmerman who shouldn't have been doing what he's doing, but he's out there following this young black kid around.

[8:32] John Franklin: The black kid's eyes go up and confront him physically.

[8:34] Tonya Pinkins: How do we know that happened?

[8:36] John Franklin: He's dead.

[8:36] John Franklin: We don't know that.

[8:37] John Franklin: Do we have a camera?

[8:39] John Franklin: Tonya, the Zimmerman had injuries to the back of his head where he was head was banged against the concrete repeatedly.

[8:46] John Franklin: Now, what is he supposed to do under the law but defend himself?

[8:50] Tonya Pinkins: His head didn't look banged against no concrete.

[8:51] Tonya Pinkins: I didn't see no blood puddles.

[8:53] John Franklin: Because if I bang someone's head on the concrete.

[8:55] John Franklin: Tanya, read the reports.

[8:57] John Franklin: Read what the police said.

[8:58] Tonya Pinkins: I don't believe the police.

[8:59] Tonya Pinkins: I don't believe their reports.

[9:01] John Franklin: Okay, Tanya, you're gonna have to believe somebody.

[9:05] John Franklin: Okay.

[9:06] John Franklin: He initiated the physical confrontation.

[9:08] John Franklin: Trayvon did.

[9:09] Tonya Pinkins: Why didn't his girlfriend say that?

[9:11] John Franklin: Listen, Tanya, he did.

[9:15] John Franklin: And under the standard ground law.

[9:17] John Franklin: This is why I like talking to you.

[9:19] John Franklin: Under the stand your ground law, Tanya, Zimmerman had no choice.

[9:22] John Franklin: And it was, it was found reasonable, and that's why he was acquitted.

[9:26] Tonya Pinkins: We're never gonna agree about these things.

[9:29] John Franklin: Whether we agree about it or not, Tanya, the facts are the facts.

[9:33] Tonya Pinkins: I don't believe facts like that.

[9:35] Tonya Pinkins: I think those facts get created by the people to serve whatever purpose or end they want them to be.

[9:43] John Franklin: A band aid.

[9:44] John Franklin: If I bang your head against the concrete, you're gonna need more than a band aid.

[9:48] John Franklin: Tanya, he should not have initiated physical contact with him.

[9:52] John Franklin: He was in fear of his, he was in fear for Zimmerman and fear of what he was wanted to do, fear of his purpose while he's following him, he should have called 911.

[9:58] John Franklin: That's considered a reasonable response.

[10:00] John Franklin: Not turning around and grabbing a man and banging his head against the ground when a man when Zimmerman and not initiate any physical contact against Trayvon Martin.

[10:08] Tonya Pinkins: So is it possible that he didn't turn around and bang his head?

[10:12] Tonya Pinkins: Maybe he said, yo, get back, because that's what you're trained to do when you're um that's what I was trained in self-defense.

[10:17] Tonya Pinkins: That when someone is following you, you're supposed to turn around, you're supposed to confront them, and you're supposed to issue a command.

[10:24] Tonya Pinkins: So maybe it started with a command, and Zimmerman approached him, and then he had to be physical.

[10:29] John Franklin: Because we don't know because Trayvon is dead.

[10:31] John Franklin: He initiated physical contact, which led to the shooting.

[10:35] John Franklin: So says Zimmerman.

[10:36] Tonya Pinkins: I don't like it.

[10:37] John Franklin: A lot of people don't like it, but that's what happened.

[10:40] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I I don't we don't know.

[10:42] John Franklin: You know what, Tanya, we have to teach our kids what's the right thing to do, what they should do.

[10:48] John Franklin: What is the right thing to do?

[10:50] John Franklin: We should call the police if we're in trouble.

[10:51] John Franklin: Call the police.

[10:54] John Franklin: If you're gonna have this attitude, if I'm not calling the police for nothing, I'm not gonna trust the police, you may find yourself in a problem.

[11:00] John Franklin: I guess I am, because I'm not I'm not helping them.

[11:03] John Franklin: I'm not answering their questions.

[11:05] John Franklin: They knock on my door for help.

[11:07] John Franklin: I'm not home, I'm gonna disappear.

[11:09] John Franklin: See, I I'm I'm a and I'm a child of a police officer.

[11:14] John Franklin: Well, I don't know what to tell you, Tonya.

[11:17] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, so let's go to the the um, you know, the chokehold.

[11:22] John Franklin: Okay.

[11:22] John Franklin: Chokeholds are illegal.

[11:24] Tonya Pinkins: Not in New York.

[11:26] John Franklin: They're illegal in New York.

[11:27] Tonya Pinkins: You're saying legal or illegal?

[11:29] John Franklin: They're illegal in New York.

[11:31] Tonya Pinkins: So what but that that officer did was that justice for that officer?

[11:34] John Franklin: He who did eventually get suspended, right?

[11:37] Tonya Pinkins: The officer eventually got terminated.

[11:39] John Franklin: Okay, so that's good.

[11:40] Tonya Pinkins: You you think that was right.

[11:41] John Franklin: But oh, definitely.

[11:43] John Franklin: Okay, definitely.

[11:44] Tonya Pinkins: I'm glad we could re-reabate it.

[11:46] John Franklin: I mean, Gardner wasn't even selling cigarettes at the time they confronted him.

[11:50] John Franklin: He had had a history of going out there selling little cigarettes, but he wasn't even selling cigarettes at the time the officers confronted him.

[11:56] Tonya Pinkins: So, what do you think happened and why were the was there so many people confronting this unarmed man?

[12:00] John Franklin: There was you know six officers.

[12:02] John Franklin: Uh I believe, my opinion, the NYPD overreacted to the situation.

[12:08] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[12:09] Tonya Pinkins: Overreaction.

[12:10] John Franklin: Overreacted.

[12:11] John Franklin: So, how what is it like for you as a police officer when all these things are happening with your, you know, your your club, and what is there a response that's you know, negative towards you as that happens with the blue?

[12:24] John Franklin: You know, there's these blue lives matter, black guns matter signs.

[12:28] John Franklin: How does that impact you doing what you you do, what you love, what you've dedicated your life to?

[12:35] John Franklin: Tanya, I've always enjoyed being a policeman for the most part.

[12:39] John Franklin: Enjoyed.

[12:40] John Franklin: I have enjoyed it.

[12:41] John Franklin: Listen, I have I have caught two offenders in the act of attempting to rape women on the streets.

[12:47] John Franklin: I have apprehended at least four or five murderers in my career.

[12:52] John Franklin: I have apprehended burglars, carjackers, car thieves, uh, sex offenders, child molesters.

[12:59] John Franklin: You name it.

[12:59] John Franklin: I've done it.

[13:00] John Franklin: So I've I've helped a lot of people out.

[13:02] John Franklin: You know, I'll tell you a story.

[13:03] John Franklin: One time I was uh getting my hair cut in a barber shop in Hyde Park, and I was sitting next to a guy, guy was in the other barber chair, and there was a woman sitting there, uh she was with him, and I paid her no mind.

[13:16] John Franklin: And the lady just started talking to me, and she said, I know you.

[13:20] John Franklin: I said, Ma'am, I don't think so.

[13:22] John Franklin: She says, No, I know you.

[13:24] John Franklin: You're a police officer.

[13:26] John Franklin: I said, Yes, ma'am.

[13:27] John Franklin: And she told her man who was in the other barber chair next to me, this is the one I told you about.

[13:34] John Franklin: He said, Really?

[13:35] John Franklin: She said, Yeah.

[13:36] John Franklin: And I'm wondering where this is gonna go, right?

[13:39] John Franklin: Yeah, this could go bad.

[13:40] John Franklin: Yeah.

[13:42] John Franklin: The guy gets out of the chair and walks up to me, says, I want to shake your hand.

[13:46] Tonya Pinkins: Were you scared when he just got up out the chair?

[13:49] John Franklin: Well, you know, I was armed.

[13:50] John Franklin: I was, you know, I had my smock on, but I've, you know, I wasn't too worried, you know.

[13:54] John Franklin: But I didn't know how things were gonna go.

[13:56] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[13:56] John Franklin: He was a well-dressed guy, she was a well-dressed woman.

[13:58] John Franklin: Anyway, I didn't recognize her.

[14:00] John Franklin: I got a call one time, we're rape in progress.

[14:03] John Franklin: And when I got there, the woman was in the backyard and she was hysterical.

[14:06] John Franklin: She had a robe on.

[14:07] John Franklin: She told me she went to throw her garbage out.

[14:09] John Franklin: She got back in her apartment.

[14:12] John Franklin: She had a robe on, she's about to go take a shower.

[14:14] John Franklin: She came into her bathroom.

[14:15] John Franklin: There's a man in her bathroom.

[14:17] John Franklin: Got into her apartment while she was throwing the garbage out.

[14:20] John Franklin: Because she only had a robe on, you know, he attempted to rape her.

[14:24] John Franklin: She started screaming, fighting, resisting.

[14:26] John Franklin: Guy ran off.

[14:27] John Franklin: Neighbors heard her screaming, called the police.

[14:29] John Franklin: So I get there and she's hysterical.

[14:31] John Franklin: And the guy ran off.

[14:32] John Franklin: I see a pinstripe suit, a sport jacket laying in the backyard.

[14:36] John Franklin: I said, Is that his?

[14:38] John Franklin: She says, Yeah.

[14:39] John Franklin: But she's hysterical.

[14:40] John Franklin: She's clearly upset about what happened.

[14:41] John Franklin: I said, Look, miss, I know you're upset, but I need you to calm down and tell me who I'm looking for so we can catch this guy.

[14:46] John Franklin: He's gotta be in the area.

[14:47] John Franklin: I need you to calm down, just tell me what it looks like.

[14:49] John Franklin: She's okay.

[14:50] John Franklin: He's about 5'9, he's bald.

[14:52] John Franklin: He had that, he had a suit on.

[14:54] John Franklin: That's a sport jacket.

[14:55] John Franklin: I said, okay.

[14:55] John Franklin: I put this flash message out.

[14:57] John Franklin: My sergeant gets on the air.

[14:58] John Franklin: It says, John, I just been flagged down by a bus driver, claims there's a robbery victim on his bus.

[15:04] John Franklin: You might want to come over here.

[15:06] John Franklin: So I come over to the bus.

[15:08] John Franklin: The guy has discarded his shirt, but he has on the pinstripe suit pants.

[15:14] John Franklin: And he's telling the bus driver he just got robbed.

[15:17] John Franklin: Well, people on the bus are upset because this man's claiming he just got robbed.

[15:20] John Franklin: I told him, turn around, Mr.

[15:21] John Franklin: He said, Well, I turn around.

[15:22] John Franklin: I put the cuffs on.

[15:23] John Franklin: People say, officer, he didn't do anything wrong.

[15:24] John Franklin: He I said, ma'am, you don't know what happened here.

[15:27] John Franklin: I said, he's wanted.

[15:28] John Franklin: He just attempted to commit a rape.

[15:30] John Franklin: And people were all upset on the bus.

[15:31] John Franklin: You taking off the wrong man.

[15:32] John Franklin: I said, ma'am, I know what I'm doing.

[15:33] John Franklin: Just calm down.

[15:34] John Franklin: I took him off the bus to him back to the scene because you can do a show up within 20, 30 minutes.

[15:39] John Franklin: And the woman went to peace when she saw him.

[15:41] John Franklin: That's him.

[15:41] John Franklin: Oh my God.

[15:42] John Franklin: And again, his pants matched a suit coat that was a sport jacket that was lying in her backyard.

[15:47] John Franklin: Five-nine bald, just like she described.

[15:50] John Franklin: Took him in, got him charged.

[15:52] John Franklin: She was kind of poor back then.

[15:54] John Franklin: She didn't really have a lot of money.

[15:55] John Franklin: I see she was kind of struggling.

[15:56] John Franklin: I went to court one day out in Markham Court, and she didn't show up.

[16:00] John Franklin: So I called her.

[16:01] John Franklin: I said, ma'am, this Officer Franklin, why weren't you in court?

[16:05] John Franklin: She said, Officer Franklin, I had no way to get out to Markham.

[16:07] John Franklin: I don't have a car.

[16:08] John Franklin: I have no means to get out there.

[16:09] John Franklin: I said, Look, ma'am, I got a continuance.

[16:11] John Franklin: If you don't mind, I will come by your house and pick you up and I will take you to court.

[16:16] John Franklin: Because I really don't want to see this guy get off.

[16:20] John Franklin: So I drove her to court, every appearance, and that man got sentenced to 12 years for attempted rape.

[16:26] John Franklin: I completely forgot about that case.

[16:28] John Franklin: Now she's dating this guy, and then now, you know, she looks a lot better.

[16:32] John Franklin: You know, she's much more affluent than she was before.

[16:35] John Franklin: She's dressing nicer, you know, makeup, all that sort of thing.

[16:38] John Franklin: The guy's well dressed.

[16:39] John Franklin: I didn't even recognize her, but she remembered me in that barbershop in Hyde Park.

[16:44] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I guess that's why I talk to you, because you're you're a good guy.

[16:49] John Franklin: Well, I would like to think most of us are good guys.

[16:52] Tonya Pinkins: I don't know, John.

[16:53] Tonya Pinkins: I don't know, John.

[16:54] John Franklin: Come on.

[16:55] John Franklin: Some of the things that you read about in the paper that your fellow officers do.

[16:59] John Franklin: Tonya, the vast majority of us start out wanting to do the right thing and doing the right thing, working hard and serving the communities that that have given us the trust to work with them and for them.

[17:10] John Franklin: Okay?

[17:11] John Franklin: I'm not gonna say cops don't get disillusioned after an amount of time out there.

[17:16] John Franklin: And you know, it's hard to find a lot of love out there in the streets these days.

[17:20] John Franklin: It's not like in New York where everybody loves to see the police and backhands them.

[17:24] Tonya Pinkins: I don't think that's true.

[17:25] John Franklin: Well, listen, police get a lot of police get a lot of support out.

[17:28] John Franklin: When I visit New York, police I see are loved out there.

[17:32] Tonya Pinkins: I I don't know.

[17:34] Tonya Pinkins: You don't feel that kind of love here in Chicago.

[17:36] John Franklin: But don't you think that that's based in the Daily Machine and gunning down Fred Hampton?

[17:42] John Franklin: I mean, we know the police did that.

[17:44] Tonya Pinkins: So, you know.

[17:46] John Franklin: Well, Tanya, that was a long time ago.

[17:48] John Franklin: But it's still part of the police legacy.

[17:52] Tonya Pinkins: I get that.

[17:52] Tonya Pinkins: I get that.

[17:53] John Franklin: I mean, uh, you know, I watched the movie Selma.

[17:57] John Franklin: I wasn't there, but I watched the movie.

[17:58] John Franklin: I mean, it's terrible how people were treated in nonviolent marches.

[18:02] John Franklin: Uh Bull Connor, you know, sticks, bats, uh beating people down on a bridge, fire hoses, dogs.

[18:11] John Franklin: Uh, you know, our first police department, our first police agencies formed in this country were slave patrols in 1704.

[18:20] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[18:21] John Franklin: So, I mean, you know, and I hate to I have to quote a man here, or a brilliant guy, a former deputy superintendent of Chicago, Chuck Ramsey, who was she went on to become chief of uh the Washington, D.C. Metro PD, and was uh served as the Philadelphia police chief for about eight or nine years.

[18:37] John Franklin: He said, we just don't have a very good history uh between law enforcement and African Commeric African American communities.

[18:45] John Franklin: But I think there are a lot of people out here working to change that every day.

[18:49] Tonya Pinkins: And uh You're a true believer in the blue, huh?

[18:52] John Franklin: Well, I have to be.

[18:53] John Franklin: Because if I don't believe what I'm doing, what have I done for the last 36 years, Tanya?

[18:57] John Franklin: If I don't believe it, why am I still bothering?

[18:59] John Franklin: You know, I've retired after 20 years 28 year career in Chicago.

[19:03] John Franklin: I've been a chief twice in two different uh municipalities.

[19:06] John Franklin: I've been a chief of a south suburb of Chicago.

[19:08] John Franklin: I've been a chief of a city in this in the southern part of the U.S.

[19:12] John Franklin: for uh last 18 months.

[19:14] John Franklin: I mean, you know, if I didn't like what I do, why would I keep doing it?

[19:20] Tonya Pinkins: I guess I just, John, I feel like, you know, these are like secret societies, these cops.

[19:30] Tonya Pinkins: And, you know, I read about the LAPD where they they literally target other officers who um, you know, don't go along with the program, which is, you know,

[19:41] John Franklin: Tanya, listen, I've I've caught hell in my career for not going along with the program.

[19:47] Tonya Pinkins: Uh like what?

[19:49] John Franklin: Um, I worked with a guy once.

[19:53] John Franklin: They put me with this guy, and he was, for lack of a better description, he was a bum.

[19:59] John Franklin: I just can't describe him any other way.

[20:00] John Franklin: 20-year veteran, uh, worked straight nights, uh, got in the car and told me, basically put his hat over his eye, said, Look, kid, I'll take lunch at five o'clock and went to sleep.

[20:13] John Franklin: Uh, got in a car with a brown bag, put the bag under the seat.

[20:17] John Franklin: The bag had three bottles of Heineken.

[20:19] John Franklin: He drank them all during the tour of duty.

[20:21] John Franklin: Now here I'm a rookie officer, can't really say anything.

[20:25] John Franklin: You know, I'm out going to calls, I'm getting out of the car, writing reports, doing everything a two-man car should do while he's sitting in the car, basically asleep the whole night.

[20:34] John Franklin: Um we got a call from the watch commander.

[20:37] John Franklin: Watch commander's spotted on.

[20:41] John Franklin: Calls us.

[20:42] John Franklin: We're the only car available, although we're on what they call a personal 15 minute break.

[20:47] John Franklin: We're at a hospital.

[20:49] John Franklin: And uh I tell him, I go in this, I go in the, I'm sitting in the squad car, I go in and tell him, hey, listen, uh watch commander, the captain's calling us.

[20:58] John Franklin: He needs a sort of call.

[20:59] John Franklin: He says, F him, we're on a personal.

[21:01] John Franklin: I said, listen, it's the captain calling.

[21:03] John Franklin: We need to get moving on this.

[21:05] John Franklin: He'll wait.

[21:06] John Franklin: I said, I'm going back out in the car and wait for you.

[21:08] John Franklin: I figure that'll speed him along.

[21:10] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[21:10] John Franklin: I go back out in the car and uh eventually he comes out.

[21:15] John Franklin: We get on the scene, and the captain is furious.

[21:18] John Franklin: He's swearing, cursing.

[21:19] John Franklin: I know what I want to know what took you so blue, bloop long and blah, blah, blah.

[21:23] John Franklin: Well, we arrest a couple for fighting.

[21:25] Tonya Pinkins: Huh?

[21:25] John Franklin: I said, you can curse, but I bet you don't.

[21:28] John Franklin: Well, I don't want to curse him, you know, on this broadcast, so I won't.

[21:32] John Franklin: But anyway, we arrest a couple, and the captain wants what they call a two-from, a two-front report as to what took us so long to arrive, one explanation.

[21:41] John Franklin: And basically, two front report has a heading on it. You put on a two, watch commander from officer so-and-so report, uh, uh subject, uh, explanation for what for lengthy arrival, whatever. So I kept asking this officer, and I'll call him by his name. He's dead now, it doesn't matter. Sam, I said, Sam, what are you gonna put on this report? Don't worry about it, kid. I'll handle it. I asked him again during the night. Sam, what are we gonna put in this report? Look, kid, I said I'll handle it. Okay, Sam. The next night I'm working the street, I'm working with another officer. Sam's off. I hear the watch commander with his booming voice get on the air and calls me in. The B car will think it was beat 425.

Have 425 come in and see me immediately. With a guy I'm working with. Our captain was such an intimidating figure. The guy I'm working with started literally shaking behind him. Oh my God. What does he want now? I said, listen, just take me into the station. I don't think he wants you. I think he wants me, and I think I know what this is about. Now remember, I still don't know what's on this two from report because Sam wouldn't share it with me. And you don't get to put one in yourself, it goes in one of them, and because he's the senior. Sam said one, but again, Sam said, I'll take care of it. He's the senior officer. You know, when you're a rookie, you're basically told to shut up, keep your eye, keep your eyes open, your ears open, and shut up and listen and learn.

[23:00] John Franklin: See, that doesn't make me feel safe. Okay. If the rookies are coming in and they're good guys, but they got these bad guys that they work with, then I can't, I'm not safe. Well, oh, Tanya, we'll talk about that later in this podcast. This is why you need to have a F field training officer program where you put your best people with the most impressionable people. If you have your best people training these rookies at the end of 10 or 12 weeks, you got two good officers. If you put an impressionable rookie with a bum, at the end of 20 or 12 weeks, you got two bums in that car. So anyway, Captain calls me in and he's just glaring at me. And I said, Good evening, Captain. This is what you said.

This is what you said took you so goddamn long to show up. Again, I don't know what's in the report because Sam wouldn't share it with me. And he's just going off. This is your excuse. This is what you're gonna say. Finally had to tell him, Captain, I haven't seen the two from. What do you mean you haven't seen the two from? So, Captain, I haven't seen the report. I don't know what's in it. I couldn't just own up to it, Tanya, and I didn't know what he put in there. He puts down on the report that we were asked by hospital security to write parking tickets on illegally parked vehicles around the hospital. And this is what took us so long. Now, I know that night that I didn't write any parking tickets.

But I have a pretty good feeling that Sam didn't write any parking tickets either. Captain has the basket in front of him. Every watch, days, afternoons, midnights, has a basket for their citations. Each watch keeps track of the tickets that are written on each watch. Look in that basket and pull out the parking ticket you wrote last night. So I tell him, Captain, I didn't write your parking tickets last night. Well, find the parking ticket your partner wrote. I said, Captain, okay, I'll look through it. I look through it, and of course, I know there's no parking tickets from my partner there because I never saw him write any. And I'm pretty good judging character. I have a pretty good feeling he didn't write any parking tickets and run out to the car to meet me before we went off to the captain's call. Well, of course, there's no tickets in there from Sam either.

[23:44] John Franklin: So this is what you're gonna say. I said, Captain, again, I didn't know what he put in the report. I haven't seen it. I didn't know what he put in there. And the captain continued to berate me, and he told me, I wanted to show you how I could let somebody F you out of a job. Because right now, I could fire you, right now, today, for filing a false report. Now get out of my face, and I leave the office. And the captain was right, he could have terminated me right then and there. Because when you're on probation or rookie, you can be terminated at any time for any reason. Well, maybe they were testing you to see if you were gonna be a good old boy and be loyal to the cause. I again, I don't know what the purpose was, but clearly the captain saw through the BS written down on that report by Sam.

Anyway, I didn't think anything about it. Went back to work. Finally get another partner named Sam, a younger guy. And we're working good. We got our own car. We're making a lot of good arrests, and you know, getting our name. Well, you know, stuff like robbery, burglary, you know, crimes that affect people, you know. Um, we're making our presence felt on the street, talking to the citizens, doing everything that bee cops do. And one day I'm working with Sam, and Sam comes to get in the car. He says, John, um, this is the new the different Sam, the younger Sam. He says, John, I can't work with you anymore after today. I said, What do you mean? He says, I got to get off the car. I said, What's wrong?

He says, You haven't heard. I said, heard what? He says, Sam's going around saying you jammed him up. He took some suspension time, and he says, It's your fault. And nobody, everybody's talking about in the station. Nobody wants to work with you. And the guys are pressuring me, and I gotta get off the car. I can't work with you after today. And I'm like, hold it. Who is saying this? He said, John, when you go into the station, you need to ask some questions, find out who's saying it. He said, but I can't take the pressure. I gotta get, I can't work with you anymore after today.

[26:50] John Franklin: So I go in the station and I'm asking around, and people tell me, with John and you know, that other Sam, the older Sam. Sam's going around saying you jammed him up that you know good. So I confront this older Sam about it. I said, Sam, why are you going around bad mouthing me to these guys? And he just basically tells me, you know, you you fucked me, kid. You screwed me. I took two days because of you. I said, Sam, how did I screw you when you wouldn't even tell me what's in the report? You lied, you told a blatant lie that anybody could see through, and you didn't even share with me. Then I'm gonna have the next day, you're off duty. I gotta come and try to defend you when I don't even know what you put down, and you're gonna blame this on me.

I didn't know the captain had suspended him for two days for filing that false two from. Well, why couldn't you get fired? Huh? Why couldn't he get fired? Because clearly you were not the first time Sam did some mess. It would be hard to fire him under that. You could suspend him, but it'd be hard to fire him. You know, when you have a union, it's hard to fire cops. You've seen that uh, you see it in New York. Look how long it took him to fire that officer that choked out Gardner. It took five years from the time of that incident until they finally terminated him. Everybody has their due process. And the unions, you know, then they're not gonna be able to do not get killed on the street. We'll get judge and executioner on the street. They don't get any due process.

[28:09] John Franklin: Well, Tanya, those are different circumstances. But anyway. I'm not gonna let you offer that one. Because this is that brings me to this question. Why is it always the male police officer? Let me finish my story, Tanya. Okay. But in the next 18 months, for the next 18 months, Tanya, I did not have a partner. No one would work with you. Other than other rookies. I couldn't get a, you know, the older guys tell me, kid, we know Sam did, we know Sam did you wrong, but we can't afford to go against him. So you're gonna have to ride this out for a while. It'll go away, but you're gonna have to ride it out for a while. For the next 18 months, I didn't have a senior partner. I worked either alone, even on midnight, so worked alone, or I worked with other new people.

Those are the only people I could work with. That's like some hazing, okay? That's like some. And they're telling you that they know this guy is a bum, but they don't want to go against him. They don't want to have the problem. And you want me to trust people who behave this way with my safety or my children's safety. Uh I can't. Tanya, I could not tell you, but I dealt with it. And believe it or not, I really thought about quitting. Because when I got on the force, you know, I had a bachelor's degree in media communications. I worked at WGN here in Chicago. I worked WGN News as an intern. That's what I hope to get into when I graduated from college. But unfortunately, when I graduated in 1981, you know, Reagan had just taken office.

The economy was in shambles, and I just couldn't find a job in my field. As a matter of fact, the day before I graduated college, I took the police exam with two friends of mine in college who actually wanted to be cops. I just took it for the hell of it. And they both failed the test. And I think my score was like 108 out of 113 points, and they hired me the following year. And I said, Well, I can do this for a year or two until some things open up in my field, you know, where I studied in college. And two years went to five, five years went to 10. And, you know, I was making more money than all my friends in the civilian world. And in 15 years, I made sergeant. You know, eight years, eight and a half years later, I made lieutenant.

Year after that, I made commander. And again, I was making more money than all my civilian friends. So why would I leave if I'm earning more money? And I enjoy what I was doing. You know, I was a good cop. I enjoyed being out in the streets. I enjoyed locking up bad guys, you know, drug dealers, stick-up men, rapists, uh pimps, you know, all of that stuff.

[30:36] John Franklin: Okay, now I require my question. Yeah, go ahead. Why is it that most of the people, cops who um, you know, fear for their life when they shoot people are men and not women cops? Just women get in shootings too. Not as many as men. Yeah, the woman to like knock on that open that guy's house door and shot him because she thought it was her house. The answer is real simple. Women are smarter at confronting potentially violent situations than men. What do you mean? Women know if they're gonna confront a potentially violent situation, they're gonna make sure it's adequate backup there, they're gonna keep a protective distance. Men tend to rush in. Oh, I can take this guy, I'll deal with this guy.

And next thing you know it's a life or death struggle, at least that's how they perceive it. And actually you know somebody's shot. Women are much more cautious. So you think they just don't get themselves into those kind of situations? Now you said go ahead. They they can size up a situation rather quickly and take the appropriate measures to make sure that they have the ups on their side before they'll go in.

[31:41] John Franklin: Okay, that's a that's an answer I wasn't expecting, but I can I can work with that answer that women don't like walk themselves into a situation where they're gonna have to kill somebody, potentially. Okay, that makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. Now you sent me uh well, we we gotta talk about this because it's just so hot right now. You know, Chicago, um, the you know, Kim Fox and Smollett, somebody made somebody mad. I don't think any of us are ever gonna know the truth of that story. What went down there. That was part one of my conversation with law enforcement expert John Franklin, Chicago CPD. Come back for part two.