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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back for part two of my conversation with Carlos Tanner of the Ayahuasca Foundation in Iquitos, Peru.

[0:14] Tonya Pinkins: It's interesting that you like the scuba metaphor because weirdly, I mean, I've taken many swim lessons. I'm not a swimmer, but I was a really good scuba diver and I hate snorkeling.

[0:26] Carlos Tanner: Nice.

[0:26] Tonya Pinkins: There you go. You know, weird, sort of very opposing sort of dynamics. And I had as my guest Baba Kalindi E, who is sort of an internationally renowned psychonaut with mushrooms, known for doing heroic doses of like 50 grams of mushrooms. And sad to say that he succumbed to COVID a week after his mother went. And listening to one of his wives talk about it, she said she thinks he chose to go in order to help her pass over there. But what he talked about, the African tradition with mushrooms, is he said there are some strains of the shrooms where people would do them in ceremony and there would be telepathic communications, but for the most part that the mushroom tradition is a solo tradition.

You go, you're alone, you're in the dark, you go, you go where you're gonna go. And you have to find what the access dose is for you to go there. Like I was saying to him that I've never left my room. But you know, I'm certainly open to finding what an access dose is to leaving this realm that we know of as this universe. Is I have for you an experience of leaving this universe, or is it always deeply an internal psychological process?

[1:48] Carlos Tanner: Oh man, I would say all just all of the above. I have definitely, well, I don't know if I could say universe. That would, I don't know, I'm challenging my own belief system. Can you leave the universe? But let leave the galaxy, leave the planet, definitely. But the universe, that one, like I'm gonna have to think about that one for a while. But yes, like though there are those times for sure, where I have existed in an alternate dimension. I would say you could probably plot them on like a chart as to the most profound experiences, and at the very top would be that you don't exist anymore as you thought you had.

[2:37] Tonya Pinkins: You gotta tell me what that means. What is that?

[2:41] Carlos Tanner: Like you find yourself in just a completely different environment, like an entirely different world where you just aren't you, but you still exist, but you are just in another world. And now that I'm saying that, actually, I have had an experience that probably would be above that, where you're not a thing anymore. You just are everything, like omniscient or you omnipresent, where you just are the world, are the universe. That was probably my most profound experience of all. But that happened one time, and you know, I've still that was my most profound experience for sure. And but I don't, you know, that wasn't my goal. I wasn't trying to do that. It kind of like happened accidentally almost.

I was just like following how things unfolded. But again, that's like through your intentions. So I have, you know, I've been through so many ups and downs because I've been doing this for 17 years, and my life has gone in so many different directions, and just like everyone's does. So there were definitely times where I knew exactly what I needed to do or what I wanted to do, what you know, why I was there, why I was taking this cup of ayahuasca, why I was in this ceremony, because there was a problem, there was an issue, there was something that I wanted to resolve or solve or fix or whatever, heal.

[4:15] Carlos Tanner: And then there were times though where I didn't have that intention. I wasn't going in the ceremony. I, because of the nature of what became my life, I was just drinking because there was a ceremony. There was going to be a ceremony, and I was going to drink regardless of whether I felt that I needed to or not. And so that might be an unusual situation for a lot of people. Like people probably aren't just going to every ceremony that happens, they're purposely going to attend a retreat, for example, or to go to ceremonies that might be in their local area because there's a reason for it, you know. But I lived with a coronero and there was a ceremony twice a week. And I went to every single one, like because that's what he did, and that's what I was training to do.

And so there was this secondary reason to drink ayahuasca, which was outside of my own need for it, if that makes sense. And so in there were times when I was drinking ayahuasca, or also doing plant yetas or other aspects of the tradition that were to train to like understand how to work with the medicine rather than to try to heal something that I needed to work on.

[5:32] Carlos Tanner: So there were definitely times, like you said, where I was working with extreme psychological analysis or observation or work, you know, on my self, interior self. And then there were other times where I was trying to figure out how to do this work for the benefit of others. And you know, how can I become this healer? How can I figure out what's wrong with someone else? Or how can I make a change in someone else's life for the better? And so I think that during those times, especially when you're, you know, I would be communicating. Like if I met a spirit, I would ask them like to teach me. And so that's kind of what I meant by like having it unfold, where in that time that I mentioned where I kind of became one with the universe, I was dieting a tree.

And I tree aya. Ayauma, what's ayauma's teaching? Well, what it was that night, the man of the spirit of Ayauma came, sat next to me and had me drink this brew made from Ayauma that had five other plants added to it, where he plucked, I mean I'm not sure if it had five plants. He plucked pieces of my visions like the colored patterns. He like somehow grabbed them and put them into this brew. And then later on looking back I decided that those patterns represented plants but I'm not sure if that's true. But it was a crazy brew that he gave to me, and I drank it. And in my this is, you know, it's hard to differentiate. This is a spirit handing me this drink. If you were filming me, you probably couldn't see that spirit. But you would have seen my hands like go up to drink something, although probably on film it would have looked like I was holding nothing.

[7:27] Carlos Tanner: And so there was like this crossover of dimension, you know, between the physical dimension that we're normally your waking dimension, maybe, and the ayahuasca dimension. But once I drank it, like everything changed. And then there was this giant golden wall of visions in front of me that went down into infinity, left into infinity, right into infinity, up into infinity, and I was somehow just floating in space in front of it. And I was seeing the patterns were moving, and I moved in closer to look at them, and these flowers bloomed, these all these golden flowers bloomed right in front of me. And when they bloomed inside the flowers were faces, and the faces looked at me and said, hello, and I was like, Whoa, you can talk.

Okay, what's going on? And now I was like having a conversation with this entity, which was basically just this wall of visual patterns and beings, and I don't really know how to describe it, this entity of life. And through that conversation, I mean part of this is pretty personal, but through that conversation, I essentially came to this point where I was not me anymore. I was just everything, one with the universe. That golden wall disappeared, everything disappeared, except that everything was there, you know, it's like impossible with all the words in all the languages of all time couldn't describe it. And then at some point I came back to just sitting on the floor of the Maloka and back in the real world again, I guess.

[9:21] Tonya Pinkins: You talked about something called a dieta, and many people may not know what a dieta is. I've done one dieta in my life when I was in Peru, and my dieta was on a plant called Noyarau. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of Noyarau is that it is a state of consciousness of a plant. It is a certain it's many species of plants can become Noya Rao, but they are recognized by the fact that their leaves glow in the dark at night. And my experience of dieting Noya Rao was that for I think it was two or three days, we fasted only on the Noya Rao, and we were in silence for that period of time, essentially making a contract with this plant to be our teacher, and that over the next couple of years, this plant will grow inside of me and teach me.

So much of what you described, you know, may sound a little hokey wokey and crazy to people. And certainly because I don't have visuals, many times when I've been in ceremony, I listen to people tell these stories, and I'd be like, wow, this is something. But I will say that my last ceremony in Peru, I had the experience of Noya Rao doing surgery on me, like moving the parts of my body and making me over. And through this kind of COVID experience, I have felt like the fact of this Noya Rao spirit blooming in me is what is holding up my immune system through this process. I mean, it's a belief, but it is the one that I have been have felt through this process.

[11:26] Carlos Tanner: Well, Tanya, I am impressed, and I now realize why the two of us connected and why we're talking right now.

[11:37] Tonya Pinkins: Well, tell me.

[11:39] Carlos Tanner: Yes.

[11:40] Carlos Tanner: Well, you must have been at Aya Healings. Is that where you went to your retreat?

[11:45] Carlos Tanner: Were you working with uh Ilio and Ana?

[11:47] Tonya Pinkins: I was working with Don Miguel.

[11:49] Carlos Tanner: Don Miguel Lopez, right.

[11:50] Tonya Pinkins: But that was at Aya Healings, right?

[11:53] Carlos Tanner: I know it was began with a K, I think.

[11:56] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay.

[11:57] Carlos Tanner: Well, I Don Miguel works with them, but Don Miguel Lopez is it was my teacher.

[12:03] Tonya Pinkins: He was working at our center up until uh the end of last year.

[12:07] Carlos Tanner: And um, I work with his brother Don Enrique Lopez and his other brother Don't you know?

[12:12] Tonya Pinkins: Don Enrique was my cordonera, sorry, Don Enrique was my cordonera, sorry.

[12:17] Carlos Tanner: Oh, and you were at Incankana.

[12:20] Tonya Pinkins: In Concankana, that's where I was, yes.

[12:22] Carlos Tanner: Oh, well, Inconcankana is where we hold our eight-week initiation course.

[12:27] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[12:28] Carlos Tanner: So you were with my teacher that I worked with for the last 10 years.

[12:32] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[12:33] Carlos Tanner: And so ah, now I'm putting the pieces together.

[12:36] Tonya Pinkins: And so you were with Kaya.

[12:39] Carlos Tanner: Yes.

[12:40] Tonya Pinkins: Totally.

[12:41] Carlos Tanner: Yep.

[12:42] Tonya Pinkins: And there might have been a course.

[12:43] Carlos Tanner: Oh no, the course half started right after you left.

[12:46] Tonya Pinkins: And so you were there from December to January, right at the end of the year.

[12:50] Carlos Tanner: Yes.

[12:50] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[12:51] Carlos Tanner: Totally.

[12:51] Tonya Pinkins: I it's all coming together now.

[12:53] Carlos Tanner: I understand completely.

[12:54] Tonya Pinkins: But what were you?

[12:55] Carlos Tanner: What did you suddenly pick up of why we were having this conversation?

[12:58] Tonya Pinkins: What what did I say that connected something for you?

[13:01] Carlos Tanner: Uh you describe Noyer Rao the way that I describe Noya Rao.

[13:06] Tonya Pinkins: And to the best of my knowledge, no one describes Noya Rao that way except for me, unless you have heard me describe it that way.

[13:15] Carlos Tanner: Um maybe that sounded very like arrogant or something, but that perspective I think is quite unique.

[13:22] Tonya Pinkins: And Noya Rao itself is quite unique.

[13:24] Carlos Tanner: Like you were in the presence of the trees themselves, which uh is very, very rare.

[13:30] Tonya Pinkins: Like not I don't know if there is any other place where you can be in the presence of the trees themselves, um, other than that place at Incankana or Don Miguel's house or Don Rohner's house, they all have uh Noya Rao trees that have appeared in their backyards, and that's why I have like come to the conclusion that Noya Rao is not a species of tree.

[13:52] Carlos Tanner: And I've talked to Kaya about it, and I've talked, you know, I've talked to the people that I know.

[13:57] Tonya Pinkins: Kaya did our eight week initiation course several years ago.

[14:00] Carlos Tanner: Um, and so yes, Noya Rao to me is a state of consciousness that plants achieve.

[14:08] Tonya Pinkins: And I think that I I like have taken the the theory beyond to propose that there were Noy Rao trees all throughout the Amazon rainforest until the Spanish came and conquered Peru and then essentially like infected the Amazonian region with uh a lower frequency energy that prevented the plants in the forest from accessing those higher states of consciousness until recently when a new wave of culture has occurred where now we are not trying to cut down the forest and we are not viewing the indigenous people as primitive, but rather the opposite, we're trying to preserve the Amazon rainforest, and we view the indigenous people as wiser than ourselves.

[14:59] Carlos Tanner: And that change increased the energetic frequency of the Amazon rainforest to allow for the Noiral consciousness or the enlightenment of plants to return.

[15:12] Tonya Pinkins: And um, you know, it's all fascinating to me.

[15:16] Carlos Tanner: And yes, it totally sounds nuts if you have no idea what we're talking about.

[15:21] Tonya Pinkins: Um if you believe that Buddha or if you believe that Jesus Christ existed and you believe that they had access or had achieved a level of consciousness that was extremely high, then this isn't that far of a leap from that, except that it occurs in the the natural world in the world of nature and in trees specifically.

[15:49] Carlos Tanner: And so, yes, the leaves do glow in the dark when they fall to the ground, you can pick them up, put them in a plastic bag, and they will continue to glow, but they will glow more if you're dieting the plant, and they will glow more if you're inside an ayahuascer.

[16:04] Tonya Pinkins: Um, there is a clear connection between them.

[16:08] Carlos Tanner: And when you do diet Noya Rao, things happen.

[16:13] Tonya Pinkins: Noya Rao is uh is an enlightened being in the sense that she she produces no shadow because the light comes from within.

[16:22] Carlos Tanner: So there is no darkness, which is a very rare thing.

[16:26] Tonya Pinkins: And that's what she wants us all to achieve is to find the light within our own selves.

[16:33] Carlos Tanner: And so it I'm so happy that you uh dieted Noya Rao that you had that chance to do that.

[16:40] Tonya Pinkins: And I agree 100% because to me, the bottom line is our consciousness is who we are, and what we believe to be true is our truth, regardless of what anyone else thinks, and what we can do to get to the point where we our truth is that in the case of healing trauma, is that we deserve to be happy, we deserve to exist.

[17:08] Carlos Tanner: We are not causing the suffering of others, that we are a vessel of love that should be overflowing and spreading that love around to all the people that are that we come in contact with.

[17:21] Tonya Pinkins: That it that is the truth that we should all aspire to.

[17:24] Carlos Tanner: And ayahuasca is something that allows us to actually believe it and not just believe it, but sink it down into the core of our identity.

[17:32] Tonya Pinkins: And Noya Rao does that in the most amazing and beautiful way, to the point where we know that we have a boosted immune system.

[17:32] Carlos Tanner: We know that we have a power within us that will protect us and not just protect us from danger, but but elevate us to a place where we can access a level of love that might have been unimaginable before.

[17:59] Tonya Pinkins: And all of that becomes truth for us.

[18:02] Carlos Tanner: And I look at it, I was actually at Caia's, and when I drove out to her place in October, I was talking out loud this idea that I was um putting together.

[18:16] Tonya Pinkins: And it's the idea of the states of matter, which are known as gas, liquid, and solid, and how we are a combination of those three states of matter in our states of being, because we have mind, emotion, and body, and how those are related to each other.

[18:33] Carlos Tanner: But in the realm of consciousness, there are three states of consciousness, which is the realms of ideas, beliefs, and truths.

[18:41] Tonya Pinkins: And you have your ideas in your mind, but when you feel them, you feel a belief, it becomes when you feel an idea, it becomes a belief because it's now transformed into the emotions and it resides in your emotions.

[18:56] Carlos Tanner: Your beliefs are part of your emotions, which is why people get worked up when their beliefs are challenged.

[19:01] Tonya Pinkins: But when you solidify and condense further your beliefs into truths, they reside in the body.

[19:07] Carlos Tanner: And that's what is so challenging about removing detrimental truths because they're solid.

[19:13] Tonya Pinkins: But what is so fantastic about beneficial truths is that they become a core part of your identity and they're unshakable.

[19:22] Carlos Tanner: They're like concrete.

[19:24] Tonya Pinkins: And if you can take beneficial truths and make your life the way it's supposed to be, then boom, not only are you healed, but you're on a path to glory.

[19:36] Carlos Tanner: And that's something that Noya Rao allows us to do.

[19:39] Tonya Pinkins: And maybe everything I just said sounds like I'm in the loony bin or something.

[19:45] Carlos Tanner: But when you have experienced a personal truth that transformed your life, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[19:53] Tonya Pinkins: And I think most of us have.

[20:49] Carlos Tanner: And to take ideas that we know we want to have and we know we deserve to have, be the core of our being and condense them down through our feelings into our bodies as the new truths of our identity, which are the truths of love and compassion and health and happiness.

[21:09] Tonya Pinkins: Now I know the Iowa Foundation has been doing some trials with a university in London.

[21:16] Carlos Tanner: Which one and what exactly is this work that you all have been doing in Peru and London?

[21:21] Tonya Pinkins: What is that?

[21:22] Carlos Tanner: Totally.

[21:23] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for bringing that up.

[21:24] Carlos Tanner: It's actually not a university, although now we have uh combined.

[21:28] Tonya Pinkins: So it is now with King's College in the UK.

[21:31] Carlos Tanner: But last year, the that study was funded by the NHS, the National Health Services, the Government uh Health Services.

[21:39] Tonya Pinkins: So last year, the government of the UK funded ayahuasca research, the only time ever that ayahuasca research has been funded by a government.

[21:48] Carlos Tanner: And those results should be published in the next month or so.

[21:53] Tonya Pinkins: There's been some weird delays, obviously, from what's been happening this year, but we're hoping that the results of that phase one study will be published soon.

[22:01] Carlos Tanner: And they're just absolutely uh jaw-dropping results, if I were to use the term of Simon Ruffle.

[22:10] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, so Simon Ruffle, uh, Nigel Netspan and um Waifung Tsang are the three uh doctors from the NHS who led that research.

[22:22] Carlos Tanner: And so big shout out to Simon Ruffle and Nigel and Waifung.

[22:26] Tonya Pinkins: And so, yeah, in terms of depression, um, coming in before a retreat, people the the mean BDI, which doesn't really mean much, but even if I just even if I just use the numbers, so there's a measurement that psychologists use to measure a level of depression.

[22:44] Carlos Tanner: The average depression rate of people coming in was 15.

[22:49] Tonya Pinkins: After a retreat, it dropped down to six, and six months after that, it had dropped down to below four.

[22:56] Carlos Tanner: So you can see like that is a tremendously low drop.

[23:00] Tonya Pinkins: If you get down to zero, that means zero depression at all.

[23:04] Carlos Tanner: But what spoke to me most clearly about that was that even after the retreat, the depression continued to drop.

[23:14] Tonya Pinkins: And if you followed it further out, one year out, it might be at one.

[23:20] Carlos Tanner: You know, it might be like completely insignificant.

[23:30] Carlos Tanner: You know, that speaks to the transformation. When you replace the truth with a beneficial truth, then it continues. You don't need the ayahuasca anymore. Those people, six months, for six months they didn't have any treatment. They weren't doing ayahuasca, they weren't dieting anything, you know, nothing. And yet their results were still proving beneficial. Like their the benefits they were receiving was continuing. And I don't, you know, you wouldn't find that. Like if you looked at Prozac or something, if you stop taking Prozac, you don't continue to get better, you know. But with this treatment, it proved that you do. And that is really what we're all looking for, isn't it? And some of those people.

[24:31] Carlos Tanner: Totally. Oh, without a doubt. Um, you know, one of the things that the relationship is between a therapist working on their own things and how that transmutes to their clients. Well, we are all connected. And working with ayahuasca allows us to develop our faculties that are not normally even discussed. But one of the one of the terms, thankfully, that we do have is the word intuition. And intuition is referencing a faculty. It's a it's a sense that we have.

[26:14] Tonya Pinkins: Now, how many years have you been doing Aya?

[26:16] Carlos Tanner: 17 years.

[26:18] Tonya Pinkins: 17 years.

[26:19] Carlos Tanner: Oh my God.

[26:21] Tonya Pinkins: I guess.

[26:22] Carlos Tanner: Yeah.

[26:23] Tonya Pinkins: Like I thought you were going to tell me like four or five, but 17 years. Are you a cordetta?

[26:29] Carlos Tanner: Um, I you know, I don't know if I would ever use that term. I'm sure a few people have probably used that term to describe me. But I work with Don Enrique, who you met, you know. And so for me to like say I'm a coronero and so is Don Enrique, you know, that's not I could never do that. That'd be like standing next to Michael Jordan and saying, hey, we play basketball, you know, like it's uh ceremony?

[26:58] Tonya Pinkins: Excuse me. Do you lead ceremony?

[27:00] Carlos Tanner: No, no, I don't.

[27:02] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay. Okay. Just trying to understand and be cute. Is there a reason or is there more like one of the things that came up for me when I was down in Peru was like, oh God, please don't tell me I'm supposed to be a healer or a teacher. I don't want to be called, I'm not answering the phone. You know, you clearly dedicated your life to this path, yet, you know, you're not Kaya. So tell me what the difference is between someone who spent 17 years in it, which to my knowledge is even more than Kaya, and yet you choose not to lead ceremony.

[27:35] Carlos Tanner: Right. I mean, I fully had that intention. And for the first uh 10 years, uh, I that was my goal, you know, and I did lead ceremonies, and you know, that's what I thought. But at a certain point, um, once I created the ayahuasca foundation, and really what happened was I got married, and once I got married, my life took a different trajectory. Um I wasn't going to spend six weeks straight in the jungle anymore. Um because my wife, I didn't feel like my because of the path I chose, my wife had to just come along for that ride, you know. So I didn't want to impose my life on her. And so that was the first like change of the trajectory. But then it ended up like playing out in such a wonderful way that I had to trust it, because in order to like continue the ayahuasca foundation, but not be there for the entirety of those long programs, like the eight-week initiation course, for example, I trained people to do that job.

And once I trained people to do that job, I realized, oh my gosh, these people are so much better at it than me. And so it was improving the quality of the programs that we offered by having these other people that were trained. They all they did were facilitators. They didn't do any of the admin work that I was doing. They weren't, you know, maintaining the website, they weren't handling all the communications. There's a lot of that goes into the organization of the programs. And all they were doing is meeting the groups and going through the process with them, never thinking about the next program. That was my job, you know. And so I began to see that it actually worked out better if I was an admin.

And then my daughter was born. And when my daughter was born, then I it wasn't even clear. And I remember having the conversation straight up with ayahuasca, like, hey, sorry, but you're not number one in my life anymore. And it's crazy, but and my wife knows this, but even when I got married, ayahuasca still was number one in my life. But once my daughter was born, it wasn't anymore. Now I had a new number one, and I was I had it took me several years to be honest to come to grips with that. That I was not going to just be on the path of ayahuasca anymore. Now I was going to be on the path of being a father first and foremost. And again, though, it all like played out in a wonderful way. And I kind of look at it as branches of a tree. My daughter's five now. She'll be six in a few months.

[30:29] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay. And I agree with her because I know that the guru they do give aya to children.

[30:35] Carlos Tanner: Oh no, I I don't give ayahuasca. I mean, she knows so much just from you know being my daughter. I've spoken to her so much, but she I will let her decide if she wants to do that, but I probably won't present that as an option for a few more years. Um I have drank ayahuasca with an 11-year-old, which was uh Don Enrique's daughter, uh Haiti, uh, when she was 11. I drank ayahuasca with her, and I drank ayahuasca with his daughter Liz when she was 15. I drank ayahuasca with her like 20 times. Um, but I you know, it's definitely different. I'm not Shepibo, you know. I'm definitely still an American, even though I'm a dual citizen. So we'll just cross that bridge when we get to it. Um, but I do hope that she drinks ayahuasca with me.

And I, you know, I feel like she's a healer already. I feel like my wife is also a healer, even though it she doesn't work with ayahuasca. Um, my wife did work with ayahuasca before our daughter was born. But yeah, everything um everything changes, but everything continues to grow. It's all about adaptation, I guess. And to me, I've learned so much from ayahuasca and I continue to learn so much from ayahuasca, but at the same time, I'm not on the same intensity of my path anymore. But yet I feel like my connection is maybe so well made that I don't really need to drink ayahuasca that many times anymore. I just still stay in touch. It's almost like um actually this is exactly what it's like when you have your friend from childhood or your you know, your best friend of all, but your paths go totally different directions.

Maybe they live in a different country now or on the other side of the country, or for whatever reason, you know, you don't really talk to them. Yeah, and then you get back together and it's like no time yet.

[32:35] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, exactly. Right. And you don't even like there's not even like an apology, you know. You just you give them a call, it's been eight months or whatever, and they're just like, hey, what's happening? What's and you're just like right back in it.

[32:47] Carlos Tanner: Yeah. And that's really like what it feels like to me, where we're she, you know, ayahuasca is with me all the time. And Noya Rao as well as is Noiral is still like my biggest guide of my life and still helps me so much in everything I do. And so it's just really go ahead.

[33:11] Tonya Pinkins: No, no, no. That was uh no, that was just the sound in my house. Well, Carlos, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. And if you want to um close out by sharing with everyone where the ayahuasca foundation is and how they can get involved or contact you if they're interested in learning or uh trying ayahuasca.

[33:30] Carlos Tanner: Sure. Thanks again so much for having me on. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Um so yeah, if you want to go to the website ayahuasca foundation.org. That's A Y A H U A S C A Foundation.org. You can read all about the programs that we offer. You can also go to YouTube and look up ayahuasca foundation. Our YouTube page has a 10 episode series that I did called Lessons from Ayahuasca, which you can also find on our website. If you want to, you know, watch me talk about some of the things that I've learned over the last 17 years and maybe you know see if it resonates with you and try to implement some of those. It was really designed so that people could gain benefit without having to go all the way to Peru. Uh but if you are ready to do that, then definitely feel free to contact me through the website. I'd be happy to answer any questions for you that you might have about the programs we offer and how it all works.

[34:29] Tonya Pinkins: Thank you, Carlos Tanner. My name is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[34:41] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins. This is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derek Gunther, music by Anthony Norman. Available wherever you get your podcast. And visit me on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, and let me know what you'd like to hear me talk about. For more information, visit VPN.fm forward slash YCST.