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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: This is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to my podcast, You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:05] Tonya Pinkins: Somebody said great minds think alike.

[0:08] Tonya Pinkins: Well, in 2015, my next guest and I were definitely thinking alike about how the idea of white exceptionalism was affecting the arts.

[0:24] Tonya Pinkins: I left a production of MOTHER COURAGE at Classic Stage Company, and she coined Oscars So White. Please join me in welcoming April Reign.

[0:38] April Reign: We gotta speak to life.

[0:42] April Reign: We gotta say one rules for you.

[0:52] Tonya Pinkins: Hi. It is May 29th, 2020. Cities are burning down in America, Minnesota's on fire, protests in Louisiana and Detroit. And I am here today on my podcast, You Can't SAY THAT, speaking with April Reign. April Reign is the creator of the viral hashtag turned movement, Oscars So White. She practiced law for nearly 20 years, and her name is synonymous with the historic change in the entertainment industry. April, welcome to You Can't SAY THAT.

[1:32] April Reign: Thank you so much, Tonya, for having me.

[1:36] April Reign: Um, I'm heavy hearted today. It's a lot. Not just today. You know, and I can't even say it this week. Not just today. And I have to say, um, I feel that the Broadway community is a bit immune. I feel that we live in a kind of bubble, the fairy tale world of plays and musicals and happy singing and dancing. And there is a kind of immunity to the everyday violence that black men and women experience in America.

[2:13] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, you know, I think that part of the issue for the arts community at large is that the way that you all often express yourselves is through art, right? And right now you don't have the opportunity to do that, you know, because you could take out some of those frustrations, some of those emotions, you know, on a stage or on a screen, um, you know, or behind a microphone, and you don't have that opportunity. And so I am encouraged by some, um, like Daniel Watts has done the jam on Instagram live, you know, and he's been in several Broadway um productions. Um, and so he is, uh, using his platform, for example, to just speak out about some of the things that we're experiencing, uh, not just with respect to coronavirus and COVID-19, but also, you know, the names of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, um, and just, uh, you know, using the platform that he has to connect with folks and emote in the way that he feels most comfortable.

[3:15] Tonya Pinkins: You certainly used your platform with Oscars So White. What are your advice or recommendations for artists for how to use the social media, the technological platforms to get out messages that will, uh, impact social justice, and what are the messages you think we need to get out?

[3:37] April Reign: Um, you know, I am no expert, you know, and when I started Oscars So White in 2015, I was a moviegoer like everybody else. I didn't have specialized training, and so I can't say then that I have the answers with respect to this. Um, but I think, um, solidarity is most important right now. You know, silence is acceptance. Silence is complicity, and therefore silence can also be deaf, you know? Um, so just saying, you know, I see what's going on. I don't have the right words to express it, but I see you, I hear you, I stand with you. Um, that is a lot, you know, as opposed to, you know, just saying those words is more than saying nothing at all, you know, so that we know that you're tuned in. And you don't have to be an expert, you know, but it should touch everyone's soul what is happening in this country, especially because all of this is pre-preventable.

Um, and then there, you know, if you have the financial means to do so, there are several, um, on-the-ground grassroots organizations that you can contribute to, like the Minnesota Freedom Fund and others, um, you know, to help those who are organizing and mobilizing in various cities across the country, but also to help with people who have been incarcerated for these protests and others, right? Um, because part of the issue here, there's so many issues intertwined with all of this, but part of it is mass incarceration, um, you know, and people, um, dying in prison and, and especially now with the coronavirus getting sick in prison before they've even been charged, before they've even been able to go before a judge and say not guilty and have their day in court, they're getting sick, um, because they cannot afford bail.

[5:27] April Reign: And sometimes bail is just as little as a few hundred dollars, you know, which is a lot to some of us. Um, but you know, to others, it's, you know, it's a lunch, you know, in West Hollywood somewhere. And sometimes you just get denied bail. I have a brother who is in jail right now, suffering from health conditions in the Chicago criminal justice system. He has been denied bail for almost three years. He has not been convicted of a crime, but he has been in jail for three years. And so far, we have been unable to get him, uh, reprieve to get out of jail during this coronavirus. So, uh, for me, I, I, um, you know, we're coming up on June as a month of gay pride, and that's traditionally rainbows and celebration, but, um, I, I don't know how we can be rainbowing in celebration as the city is burned down.

[6:24] April Reign: Moments before I spoke with you, I read a headline that said they had just finally taken Derek Chauvin into custody. Uh, that, in my opinion, may stop the burning tonight, but it is not going to be enough to stop the movement to end violence against black bodies.

[6:45] Tonya Pinkins: That's right.

[6:46] April Reign: And it was just him, right? It wasn't the other three officers that are on the scene that were clearly complicit. You know, the one officer who turned his back as George Floyd was being killed, you know, and, and again, silence is complicity. Silence means death. He had the opportunity to say, hey, let's just get him in the car. And you know, we've also seen they've released more video footage in different angles showing to me at least that there was no resistance. You know, he was handcuffed, George Floyd was handcuffed and sitting on the ground, and then all of a sudden he's got a knee on his neck, and there was no understanding to me as to what that escalation was, right? And we've also found out that Chauvin knew or at least worked with George Floyd in the same restaurant for over 10 or 15 years, you know.

[7:36] April Reign: So if you can kill somebody you know, if you can give the, you if you cannot give the benefit of the doubt for what is allegedly a $20 forgery, my understanding, you know, so a nonviolent crime. If you can listen to someone pleading for the last breath, when you may have heard their voice talking to you merely a week earlier, why do people think in this country that black and brown people have any chance? You know, as we have strangers and being, uh, confronted with the police when you know somebody you know exactly. So it doesn't mean that you're gonna get familiar with us or comfortable with us or go to school with us or break bread with us, and that it's going to make any difference when you can weaponize your whiteness and use it as power against us.

[8:25] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly.

[8:25] April Reign: Exactly. And that's why, you know, we're having the conversation on social media today about allies versus advocates, right? And you know, so we can connect this to Amy Cooper, who was the white woman, um, in Central Park who called the cops on Christian Cooper, right? Because, um, it's not even clear why. Because it's a reflexive behavior, because this behavior has been rewarded so often that you know, instinctively, if someone's telling me something and I think they're in my business, my reflex is fuck you, get out my business, but not I'm going to call the police on you. So this is a habit that's ingrained from a legacy of the history of just saying a black person looked at me, saying a black person stepped on my toe, saying a black person spoke incorrectly, and, and we can have them killed.

[9:19] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[9:20] April Reign: And that's the issue, right? Because there's more information coming out now about Amy Cooper about how, you know, for all intents and purposes, she was a liberal. You know, she donated allegedly, you know, I haven't seen the financial reports myself, but she donated to Clinton and perhaps Buttigieg, you know, most recently. Um, so this wasn't, you know, an out-and-out, you know, MAGA hat wearing Republican, you know, racist. No, this was a liberal racist, right?

[9:48] Tonya Pinkins: And we need to have this conversation about the fact that they exist and can be as harmful, if not more harmful.

[9:54] April Reign: You know, it's not the racist necessarily that's wearing the hood, it's the one that is wearing, you know, the PTA cap.

[10:03] Tonya Pinkins: You know, Hillary Clinton button.

[10:06] April Reign: Exactly.

[10:07] Tonya Pinkins: And that's the concern.

[10:08] April Reign: The ones that will smile on your face and stab you in the back as they uphold white supremacy.

[10:14] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[10:14] April Reign: So you and I met because both of us were associated with Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw's African American Policy Forum, and part of a panel that was bringing to light "Say Her Name," that has become a hashtag about the fact that black women are killed as often as black men by white men, by white people, by police officers, and yet there's marching finally in the street for Breonna Taylor but not as much, right? And it took a lot longer.

[10:20] Tonya Pinkins: That's right, that's right.

[10:20] April Reign: And it's the same issue with Sandra Bland and Rekia Boyd and all the, you know, and so we have to have that conversation within our own community. Now, obviously, it should not only be black people who are protesting saying that black lives matter; everyone should be saying it because everyone should know it. The fact remains though, there has definitely been a distinction between the amount of protest that we've seen for black female victims of state-sanctioned violence versus black male victims.

[10:20] Tonya Pinkins: Yes. Do you have any thoughts on why that is?

[10:20] April Reign: Because people don't show up for black women, period. You know, and the way that we show up for everybody else, you know, and it's unfortunate and it's hurtful to say it, you know, as someone who has black men in my life. I'm raising a black son, I have a black husband, you know, I have a black father, you know, and but that's just always the case. Black women have always been on the front lines of movement—every civil rights, voting rights, immigration rights, women's rights, you name it. Black women have always been there at the forefront, and black men have not done as much as they can on behalf of black women. They do not show up for us as much as we show up for them.

[12:16] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[12:18] April Reign: It's painful. I remember I was an elected official in the theater community in 2016, and the union, the Actors' Equity union, which represents the Broadway theater, was 103 or 105 years old. And the policy for the union for a century had been that they did not endorse political candidates because union members, actors, are of every political persuasion, and the union cannot properly advocate for all of its members if it's choosing political sides.

[12:56] Tonya Pinkins: And I remember that the union was taking a vote on whether this election of the current president—I try not to ever use the brand name.

[13:06] April Reign: And that's smart because he searches for it and all the algorithms and all the rest of that stuff.

[13:11] Tonya Pinkins: It all matters. Like I try not to use it on social media because, you know, after he is gone, whether, you know, and it's not clear to me that even if he is not re-elected that he is going to go peacefully.

[13:23] April Reign: But whenever he gets out of the White House, agreed.

[13:26] Tonya Pinkins: You know he's going to be the one that says, you know, my name was used more than any other name ever.

[13:31] April Reign: You know that's coming.

[13:33] Tonya Pinkins: So you are dead on rights, dead to rights with that.

[13:36] April Reign: And I try not to use this name either, so I just say 45.

[13:38] Tonya Pinkins: But yeah, that guy.

[13:40] April Reign: 45 is what I say too. And my colleagues on the union were—they I got up and I said, "Look, the things that you are discussing that you think are so terrible that are happening, they're just now starting to happen to you."

[13:56] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[13:57] April Reign: The world has not changed one iota for me, my family, my friends. Everything that you are suddenly feeling and experiencing is old news to me. Do not change the constitution of a union after a century because of one election.

[14:16] Tonya Pinkins: And of course, as a black woman, you know, a Tony Award winner standing up in front of this room, every time I got up and spoke, there would be this pause, no one would have anything to say. They would move on.

[14:29] April Reign: And they voted to change the constitution. And Donald Trump then put in the new tax laws, which punished artists particularly more than anyone else because he removed the ability to deduct anything. And I do think it is a direct result of artists deciding they were going to take a political stance.

[14:50] Tonya Pinkins: When what has been beautiful to me about being an artist is that you can speak to everything without that.

[14:56] April Reign: If you want to, sure.

[14:58] Tonya Pinkins: But your art can be beyond right or left or blue or red.

[15:02] April Reign: That's exactly right. You know, and we've said, I mean, you know, you are a perfect example of what we say all the time: listen to black women, you know.

[15:11] Tonya Pinkins: And it is, you know, we are never wrong.

[15:13] April Reign: You know, and but it goes across all different spectrums. It's, you know, we told you not to vote for Trump. We told you, you know, to support somebody else, right?

[15:26] Tonya Pinkins: And we have these kinds, but it should also be with respect to black lives matter and social justice issues. Listen to black women because we can tell you what the difference is, you know, because we are raising the black boys and girls that we are afraid to send out to get a gallon of milk because they may be pulled over for nothing, you know, or for a broken taillight or whatever.

[15:49] April Reign: You know, I have a 20-year-old son and a 16-year-old daughter. And I can, you know, and so we've had the conversation of driving while black, you know, many, many, many times.

[15:58] Tonya Pinkins: Um, but I'm now at the point where I am researching dash cams to put in my son's car so that he has that level of not necessarily protection because nothing can protect my child, and how hard is that to say?

[16:14] April Reign: Uh, but that level of accountability, right? And we have that conversation about what to do with your hands and, you know, and all the rest of where are you keeping your registration and how do you respond? All of those things, but none of it matters when, not if, but when he gets pulled over.

[16:32] Tonya Pinkins: And so the guilt that I feel and the anxiety that I feel as a mother sending my child out to get something from the grocery store, you know, pre-coronavirus, just because I was busy or just too lazy, you know, or didn't feel like, you know, whatever, putting my bra on or whatever, you know, sending him out to get some milk or bread or something.

[16:54] April Reign: And then, you know, once he leaves, thinking, oh my god, how would I ever forgive myself if anything happened to him because I was feeling lazy? Like no one should have to live in a society like that.

[17:07] Tonya Pinkins: And yet we have always done so.

[17:10] April Reign: So listen to black women because we have been there, we have done that, because we can see that nothing is really changing until that happens. And that's why I think also we need more black women in power, you know, in political power, in judicial power, you know, there's a reason why 45 is stacking the courts because even after he leaves, whether that's in 2021 or 2025, the court system—I don't call it the justice system for sure—but yes, the legal system will remain to help usher in whatever policies he's put in place and to help him get off and his friends get off if and when they are prosecuted by whomever is leading the next administration.

[17:57] Tonya Pinkins: And I'm glad you brought that up. I know you were a lawyer. I did a little time in law school, and it was not for me. I realized I had a lot more power not being a lawyer and helping people as a pro se or writing papers for people because I remember also that the union was very lawsuit-averse.

[18:17] April Reign: Yeah.

[18:17] Tonya Pinkins: That their fear of lawsuits was so great that I could see how it disempowered the union to advocate on behalf of their clients.

[18:28] April Reign: They were so afraid that someone would sue them.

[18:31] Tonya Pinkins: And what I learned as a person who said I left law school is that same fear that you have, you can weaponize it against people who are going to sue you because you can sue people too, just like anybody can sue you, you can sue too.

[18:44] April Reign: And they got to spend the same time and they've got to spend the same money.

[18:48] Tonya Pinkins: But the thing I want you to speak to is that judges answer to no one.

[18:55] April Reign: Their word becomes law from the bench.

[18:59] Tonya Pinkins: And if you don't have the money and the time to do an appeal, you will never get an opportunity.

[19:06] April Reign: You may not even get heard.

[19:07] Tonya Pinkins: That's right.

[19:12] Tonya Pinkins: I'm Tonya Pinkins, and that was part one of my conversation with creator of #OscarsSoWhite, April Reign. Come back for part two of You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.