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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, I'm Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to my podcast, You Can't SAY THAT.

[0:04] Tonya Pinkins: The show where you can on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:08] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back for part two of my conversation with creator of #OscarsSoWhite, April Reign.

[0:16] April Reign: We gotta stay to lie. We gotta say we're gonna see you.

[0:32] April Reign: And that's what is so frustrating to so many because they say, trust the system, you know, and this is the system that we got. But the system has been stacked against us from the beginning, you know, from the Constitution, you know, we're three-fifths of a person, you know, everybody is created equal except you, you know, you enslave people who we don't even consider people, we consider property, and that's why we're counting three-fifths of you and not you as a whole person, right? And so it started from there, and here we are today, you know, we're looking at the Supreme Court, and you know, goodness knows what happened to Merrick Garland back when Obama was president, and so on, but Trump is trying to stack it.

You know, we see Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, you know, and every six weeks or so, she's got another significant ailment, especially at her age, but she is trying to hang on for as long as possible because she knows what's coming. You know, we might have to turn her into a zombie and figure out how to keep her going. I don't know how to go. But even if you start at the local level, you know, and sue someone or are sued by someone, having the money, the financial resources, knowing where to find a good attorney who's really truly going to be on your side and not just taking it for the money, right? Who really knows the law, um, and then having the time. You know, you gotta take off work, you know.

You know, and how many of us can afford to do that in addition to afford the lawyer and afford the court fees and all of that? And then knowing that the justice, the criminals, um, the legal system is stacked against you. Okay. And so you win at the initial court, but then you've got an appellate court, right? And then you've got state supreme court, or if we're talking federal, you know, you've got the federal supreme court, the US Supreme Court. And all along the way, Trump is um putting in place judges who are not elected, but so they don't have to worry about, you know, people voting them out, but are appointed for life.

[2:33] April Reign: And they're young. Exactly. He has appointed 50% more judges than the three presidents before him had appointed at this point in their terms. That's right. And it is intentional because he, you know, I don't give him credit for anything because I don't think that he is an intelligent man, but whomever is running that part of his show really knows what they're doing because they are setting it up so that Ivanka and Jared are going to be protected. Donald and, you know, and whomever else, you know, is part of that team are going to be protected. I mean, you know, the fact that Flynn, they dropped the charges again. I mean, you know, there are way too many examples, you know, and now all of uh 45's um friends and cronies are getting out of jail beforehand, you know.

Oh, well, he's just gonna pardon him. He doesn't have to pardon them, he's already out of jail and he's hanging out at home, right? So, you know, it's it's obvious to me what's happening with respect to that system. And I I I think this is an important conversation for the theater community because I think we don't think about it. And I think we spend so much time working on being characters in plays and in movies and lawyers written by people who are writing things that are going to be dramatic that completely do not look like the way it really looks when you go to court.

[3:47] April Reign: Yeah. Or when you're you're up against the justice system. Like, you know, people don't understand that you could be sitting in jail four years, never convicted of a crime. That's right. And that's what happened to Khalif Browder, right? He was in Rikers, um, in solitary, never got his day in court, eventually got out, but had been so broken by the system that he completed suicide, right? And and that should not be the story of anyone, especially someone who hasn't had their day in court, you know, guilty or innocent, whatever the case may be, if we're supposed to believe in the system, then the system has to work. Otherwise, we need to do something else, right? And so it's time for us to stop saying, well, you know, let's just let the system run its course and let's see what happened, and let's, you know, let's see what else was on the tape and all that.

You know, we already know what the story is because the story never changes. And so that's why, you know, it's it's imperative for um, you know, people to get more involved. It's you know, especially in the political system. You know, I I don't agree with everything that AOC says, you know, but she was a bartender, a regular person who said, you know what, I can do better than the people that are in Congress right now, and she won. And those are the kind of people, everyday regular people, including theater artists, you know, you may not have time to be congressmen, you know, God willing, you know, you are on a stage somewhere, so that you're too busy for that. But could you be a city council person?

You know, could you be an alderman? Could you volunteer some time within the political? Could you um call and register people to vote? Could you take your Monday off, you know, and make sure that people know about voter suppression tactics that are happening both online or online? There's something that all of us that can do to be more involved in the system, because if we're not, things will not change.

[5:42] April Reign: And actors are notoriously generous about giving their time and their talent for uh worthy causes. And our democracy is a very worthy cause. I have to say, I don't know that it can be saved at this point. We've been living under a uh a dictatorship since 2017. And I don't really uh, you know, we'd need an act of God or the universe to shift that because the tide is, you know, COVID is helping, the brutality is helping. Uh countries don't usually switch, you know, shoes in the river in the midst of difficult times. They want to stay the course with the devil that they do know, and all of this chaos, which 45 thoroughly enjoys um is is fueling that he will be here again. And as you said, I believe that even if he were not lawfully elected, he would just say, Well, what you gonna do if I don't go?

Right, we're gonna do let's just see what happens, right? I mean, he doesn't the laws don't apply to him, you know, and and that's not new, and so that shouldn't be surprising to anyone either. Uh uh in his mind, the laws have never applied to him because he has always been able to sue his way or settle his way out of things, you know. You know, that's what happened with all the allegations of sexual harassment and sexual assault, right? He just paid the women off, or you know, or tried to outspend them in court until they gave up because they did not have the financial resources that he does, right? And so why should we think that this would be any different?

[7:18] April Reign: As far as he's concerned, either the laws don't apply to him, or he's now changed the laws, or the people who enforce the laws, the judges. So everything is on his side. So I don't I don't know what's happening come January 2021, regardless of who is lawfully elected, and and there's a question about whether that is going to happen, right? Because he's even, you know, part of I I want people to make the connection between Trump trying to gut the United States Postal Service, right? And get rid of their leadership and maybe close them down completely, and the push on the side of democracy to get people to use mail-in ballots for the election in November. Those things are connected. He is afraid that it because it is factual.

It is, it is data. There's data to prove that the more people vote by mail in ballot, the um better the Democrats do, right? And that's because of access. That's because the people who um cannot take off from work to stand in a four-hour line on election day, you know, or have to get home to their kids, or you know, whatever the case may be.

[8:34] April Reign: Or it's COVID infection, exactly, or are infirm for whatever reason, or are ill or just afraid to stand in line because they're immunocompromised or have someone at home that is, those people tend to vote democratic. And that's his concern, right? That there will be too many people, and this is despite the fact that he has voted via mail in ballot. More so, more and and that his team has voted by mail in ballot. So it's a again, the laws don't apply. It's okay for him, but it's not okay for everybody else. Those things are connected. And I think artists need to remember that in fascist systems, the arts are used to promote the propaganda of the system. But the artists who are against it are either exiled or executed.

[9:23] April Reign: I mean, yeah. I mean, that's right. And there are way too many examples of that. You know, we were having a conversation today about and the Color of Change led by Rashad Robinson has done great reporting um and research about the way the law enforcement, meaning cops primarily, but also judges are portrayed in TV, right? You know, I know that you know, all everyone listening knows art imitates life and life imitates art, right? And so when you have, you know, so so that law enforcement, like like cops are sort of sanitized, um, you know, because they're all jolly and friendly, you know. You think about Lethal Weapon, you know, with Danny Glover, you know, or um Jump and Jet. New York Undercover.

There are so many examples, you know, of oh, okay, so the cops are the good guys, you know, and the cops look like us, you know, and then you get out in the streets and you realize that's not real life. Um, you know, and that's that's no disrespect to them because you know they were all quality shows. It's not about that, but it's about you know what the media, what the entertainment industry does um to sort of perpetuate these notions that are not necessarily playing out in real life for many black and brown folks in this country, and it feeds into um the white narrative, the cognitive dissonance that they like to have of being the great white hope, the great white savior.

[10:51] April Reign: We had this season um To Kill a Mockingbird, one of the most successful plays in the history of plays on Broadway. I did not go to see it. Um I was told that they even reinforced the idea of this um, you know, white male lawyer as the savior of this black man. And I don't know if you know, but this is something I want to share with everyone. Faulkner, um, and and Harper Lee were contemporaries. And Faulkner wrote the identical story with a different outcome in his book, and in a movie was made of it with Juana Hernandez called Intruder in the Dust. It's almost the same story. Black man accused of a crime, they're taking him to jail, the lynch mob is waiting outside. The difference in Intruder in the Dust is that the black man has to outsmart all of these white people to get people to go do things to solve the crime to prove his innocence.

[11:58] April Reign: Interesting. And they they were contemporary. She had to be thinking about what he was doing, but she made the more commercially uh appealing the one that was going to be the successful show that people want to see. Of course. Yeah. I mean, the white savior is such a familiar trope throughout the entertainment industry. Um, you know, um movies, I I I and I did see To Kill a Mockingbird because Gbenga was was um, you know, played Tom as well. I love, you know, and and he, I love him as a person as an actor. Um, but it it you know, it felt like that there was there's a part of the play where he is looking out into the he's looking out, you know, into the jury, and he's he's fighting for them to see him as human, right?

[12:48] Tonya Pinkins: You know, as we know from the book and the play. Um, but then he has to look out into the audience. And it's the same damn thing. Uh-huh. And that's that's what I said. You know, I had a moment with Scott Roman and I said, listen, you need to, what are you doing to support Venga in this? Because every, you know, eight times a week or whatever it was, he has to look out into the audience and how and ask them to see him as human, just as he's looking at those 12 people that are sitting on stage as the jury. Because, you know, because let's talk about how how that play, at least this iteration of it, is being um is being promoted, you know, because there weren't I could count the number of black folks in the audience, right?

So we're all supposed to be about diversity and inclusion, but it's a whole white audience, and so he is fighting for his humanity both on stage and off. And what does that do his to his psyche when he has to do it eight days a week, right? And it made and it made me crazy seeing that every break in the 1619 project was a commercial for to kill a mocking bird. I was just like, I it just made me crazy. It made me crazy. I also did on Broadway a time to kill. The Grissom story, another story about a black man, you know, being accused. And I remember, you know, one of the challenges for me as an actor about it, because I it is very important in me to represent my people in a way that I can look back on forever and uh and feel proud of that, you know, I died and I and I and I left certain image for my people.

And one of the things that was going on, that's another white savior story, a time to kill. And they wanted me to be emotional and broken. Oh, my man is in the jail, and I was like, no. I said, you know what? I got children at home. That's it. If you say that to my child, they can come and get us anytime. I didn't got time to be broken. And I it's so important to me. You know, people think black women are so strong. It's not that we so strong, we just realistic. Yeah. Okay. We don't got no time to be crying. We got to feed people, we got to get them up. We got to, we got to keep them going because somebody's got to keep them going. And you know, whoo. I mean, that's it. We we don't have time to react, to feel because there's always something else coming along after it, right?

And and that's that's hard, you know. And and if you know, just to think about that, you know, we don't have time to breathe, we don't have time to mourn, we don't have time to laugh. You know, it's it's the highs and the lows because there's always something coming on after that, and that's regardless of whether you're partnered, and so you got somebody at home to help you, or you know, you're a single parent or whatever the case may be. You know, the village it, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, and that's because you know we uh don't have the opportunity to refill our well enough, often enough that we feel like I re-filled my well candy have to ask for help to pass the child along until we can get a moment of respite.

And my moment of respite ends up being some cookies, some candy, some chocolate, stuffing down all the rage, all the pain, all the hurt, getting fatter and fatter and fatter, but keeping everybody up, keeping them going. Because I feel like we do have this immense, immense power and energy. And we are always put in positions where we are being subservient to people who who who don't have this a fingertips worth of the clarity of just seeing what is around us, seeing what is needed, seeing what needs to be done, and yet we have to be like going, mm-hmm to somebody else. Aren't as intelligent as us, aren't as savvy as us, you know. And so, you know, being subservient looks um, you know, it's it's not just the secretary in the office, it's not just the housekeeper.

Um, you know, it is uh, you know, black folks who cannot break through to the C-suite, despite the fact, you know, that they are equally, if not more educated than others, you know, it and it hits all parts of every single industry, you know. And that's what's so frustrating, you know, and another reason why we need the opportunity to have that moment of respite. We can talk about Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw, you know, uh teacher at Columbia Law School, teacher at UCLA Law School, uh, emeritus at the London School of Economics. Uh, does she have a a chair at either of those rooms? I think she knows she does not. She was like the two in the most quoted uh law review articles ever. She had two. Didn't get a congratulations, didn't get a mention.

It's not put in the Columbia uh press information. One of the most brilliant minds, women on the planet. And she's still fighting to prove that that she knows from when she speaks. Right. I mean, you know, Michelle Obama said it recently, you know, in our documentary on Netflix, you know, that even she at some point experiences, if not imposter syndrome, um, but you know, having to be perfect at all times, you know, and and again, that burden, that emotional toil that it takes on all of us to have to smile through whatever, you know, sexual harassment, you know, ignorance, whatever, you know, misogyny, patriarchy, racism, white supremacy, discrimination, every single day, you know, in microaggressions and macro aggressions, um, just to be able to make it, you know, and and so it it's it's it's so difficult to explain to um you know non-black and brown folks what it's like.

Um, because you know, you you cannot walk a mile in my shoes. You you literally can't, you know, because you know, unless you did blackface, and we know that that's wrong. So you couldn't take it. You couldn't take an hour of my day. Exactly. Right. But but even if you were to do it physically, if there was some way that you could do it physically that was not offensive, you would not be able to get into my mind state, my emotional, you know, you know, my emo, what it feels like to be a black person or a person of color. And, you know, and that goes for you know, so many folks, what it feels like to be a queer person, what it feels like to be a person with a visible disability, um, all of those things, you know, and so that's why we need sympathy, we also need empathy, and we need advocates, not just allies, right?

And so I have this conversation all the time when I do talks and stuff about the distinctions between the two. And an ally is the person says, Oh, I see it, you know, this is so horrible for you, you know, black lives matter. I get it. The advocate is the one who says, I'm ready to burn this shit down. You tell me what needs to be done, you know, and I will stand with you. So the ally is passive, the the advocate is active. The I the advocate is the person who the ally recognizes their privilege, okay? And they wear the pink pussy hats, excuse my language, you know, and want the gold star or the cookie at the end of the convers at the end of the march or demonstration. The advocate is the active person who uses their privilege to stand in the gap on behalf of marginalized people with no expectation of thanks or remuneration.

You know, so we saw um in Minneapolis there was a line of white women or white women and men who were standing there, um, you know, arm in arm in between the police and the black protesters. That's an advocate. You know, I'm not saying that you have to risk your life every single day, but when you're in that boardroom or you know, that meeting room, um, say, hey, you know what? We haven't heard from Tanya yet. I would love to hear what she has to say. Something that simple can completely change the tenor of the room. So Tanya, as a black woman or a queer woman or disabled woman can say, you know what? I'm seen. I feel seen and I feel supported and affirmed by that person. And it's something that simple that can make all the difference for a marginalized person.

[21:29] April Reign: I think that's a beautiful way to end. We're calling on all of the theater community, all of the listeners to move from being allies to being advocates to being advocates, to take action, to risk something, a relationship, a resource. Take an action. Your words are not meaningful anymore. We have heard them for too long. We need you to be advocates. We need you to get out on the streets with us. We need you to be our shields. We need you to be the voice for us when we don't have one. We need you to get us out of jail. If you've got the money and we don't, we need you to feed us. We need you to use all the resources that were made off of the backs of our ancestors on our behalf to bring equality for everybody.

That's it. And we need you to talk to your people, you know, because they clearly, you know, we've talked about listening to black women. They're not listening to us. And we know, you know, and we know that people learn more, listen better to people who look like them, who share experiences, right? And so black women have been screaming at the top of their lungs, you know, whatever the injustice may be. So if you understand the issue, if you truly want to be an advocate and move things forward for the better of everyone, then talk to people and change some hearts. And then, you know, and then that's the multiplicative effect. And then they will do the same. You know, read more so that you can teach more to people who look like you who may not be as enlightened as you.

That's what an advocate does. And bring them along and model for them how to take action. There it is. Bring them along. Cause you got to start taking action. We can't no more talking, no more tweeting about it, no more books about it. You got to take action. Action is necessary now. Our democracy is at stake.

[23:22] Tonya Pinkins: Thank you so much, April.

[23:23] April Reign: My pleasure.

[23:24] Tonya Pinkins: Pleasure to talk to you. It was wonderful. Thank you so much for having me.

[23:28] April Reign: Thank you.

[23:29] Tonya Pinkins: And uh, yeah, I think we hold for a second. Um you are listening to Tonya Pinkins on the Broadway Podcast Network in the middle of uh the revolution in America. As black people say we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And we are calling all of the white people and the non-black people, but who aren't white people, but we're calling everybody to take action to bring back the democracy and to make a world that works for all of us. Thank you again. You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. I'm Tonya Pinkins on You Can't SAY THAT.

[24:08] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derek Gunther with music by Kat Dale. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream. Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins. And to learn more, visit BPN.fm forward slash YCST. Stay safe.