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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back to You Can't SAY THAT.

[0:02] Tonya Pinkins: I'm Tonya Pinkins, and I'm speaking with Donny Repsher, author of WOKE SUPREMACY.

[0:25] Donny Repsher: You know, it's been interesting to talk to people who are working for these institutions while I was putting this essay together.

[0:36] Donny Repsher: Because as I was reading these books, the responses I would get are, you know, oh I should read that.

[0:43] Donny Repsher: You know, but what they meant is, oh, like when I have free time when I'm at home, I will read this for me.

[0:51] Donny Repsher: But I could tell that what they did not mean is let me figure out what this actually means for my work.

[0:58] Donny Repsher: You know, like let me know more about what racism looks like for my life, but it is separate from how we carry racial bias at work.

[1:12] Donny Repsher: And this particular essay that you mentioned that was written in HowlRound, I think it is about naming racial bias in our workspaces.

[1:25] Donny Repsher: And I think that is the first step. The second step is in naming it.

[1:28] Donny Repsher: I think we've all named it. We know it's there.

[1:30] Donny Repsher: Like, you know, most of the institutions are run by one mala nation.

[1:34] Donny Repsher: But I think what's important is that white people are naming it in other white people because these institutions are the meetings that happen that keep these organizations running are still predominantly white.

[1:46] Donny Repsher: Well, but that's because the resources come from there.

[1:49] Donny Repsher: Like I sat on an advisory board for an organization and we had a meeting about raising money.

[1:54] Donny Repsher: And the bottom line message was people give money to people they know.

[1:58] Donny Repsher: So if you're going to an organization and asking for a grant or for some funding, they're gonna go to everybody in their organization and go, do you know them?

[1:58] Donny Repsher: Do you know them? And if you don't have a relationship with somebody, they're just not gonna give you the money.

[2:09] Donny Repsher: Right. So since the resources are predominantly in the hands of people who are non-melanated, the resources are going to keep going to those people unless you have someone who exceptionally is deciding, I'm investing in something else.

[2:21] Donny Repsher: And generally it's an investment.

[2:23] Donny Repsher: Right. But once you have that money, it's about I think you're still having to figure out what to do, what you're putting on your stage and how you are hiring.

[2:34] Donny Repsher: And I think those are the conversations that I'm talking about, where we have to, so okay, for instance, I was having a conversation with a human resources director who was working with a hiring manager in a department to hire an entry-level position.

[2:50] Donny Repsher: And this human resources director made the effort to take a look at to present the hiring manager with as diverse a body of candidates as possible.

[3:04] Donny Repsher: And then she presented this portfolio of candidates to the hiring manager and said, now you choose the best candidate.

[3:11] Donny Repsher: And you don't have to guess that this person chose two overqualified white women from this diverse body of candidates.

[3:22] Donny Repsher: And she was saying, What do I do? Because this hiring manager is saying, well, we can keep looking for non-white women, or we can fill this position.

[3:33] Donny Repsher: And I think that is it, it's those moments where you know that this person is hiring a very trainable job.

[3:41] Donny Repsher: That these people are coming from, you know, they have 18 apprenticeships at all of the major institutions, and so we think, well, we have to go with the best candidate, but what we're not naming is that what we mean by best candidate is the white candidate that's gonna make us feel comfortable.

[4:00] Donny Repsher: And I think it's naming racial bias in those instances and going to the hiring manager and saying, no, we have to keep looking because the diversity of perspective that a non-white, non-female will bring to our staff will far outlast the experience at Roundabout that this person is bringing incorporating into this work.

[4:22] Tonya Pinkins: I definitely agree with you about that, but I think that that is that the step of, hey, did you happen to notice that you had this pile of six people?

[4:30] Tonya Pinkins: And of the six, there were four that were, you know, non-white, and you happen to pick the two white.

[4:37] Tonya Pinkins: Is it an accident? Were you even aware that you did that?

[4:40] Donny Repsher: Right.

[4:40] Tonya Pinkins: What happens if we pull them out?

[4:42] Tonya Pinkins: If we pull them out of the pool, who are you gonna pick?

[4:44] Donny Repsher: Right.

[4:44] Tonya Pinkins: Let's go with those. What do you think of that?

[4:46] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[4:46] Donny Repsher: Do you know what I mean? Because I do think you gotta figure out, you know, how do you not shame the person who's done it because they also are biased and unconsciously and don't know.

[4:56] Donny Repsher: But then that's another uncomfortable conversation.

[4:58] Donny Repsher: It's uncomfortable for the HR person to have to call out, I guess, their boss about something like that.

[5:06] Donny Repsher: So it's for me, it's so much about learning to be uncomfortable to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

[5:13] Tonya Pinkins: It's true.

[5:14] Donny Repsher: And I think we there are so there are organizations and consulting professionals that are doing this kind of anti-racist facilitation with arts organizations.

[5:23] Tonya Pinkins: Is it anti-racist, or is it just pro-humanist?

[5:27] Donny Repsher: Yes, agreed.

[5:29] Donny Repsher: But I think we are we have a ton of language that sort of fosters awareness.

[5:37] Donny Repsher: And I think that is the kind of work that these consulting organizations are doing inside organizations, so that you don't have this uncomfortable dynamic between two people where one person is naming racial bias and the other person is saying, I don't agree with you, or you know, or whatever.

[5:56] Donny Repsher: But it is giving everybody language to identify it for themselves.

[6:02] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, language.

[6:03] Tonya Pinkins: Language is so complicated because words mean different things to different people and you know, you can read a book or you can Twitter about something, and it doesn't really change things.

[6:15] Tonya Pinkins: I feel like it is definitely about uncomfortable communications between people that are like right now, like two people crunchy crunchy, crunching together till they can come to an agreement to disagree, even.

[6:31] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[6:31] Donny Repsher: One of the challenges I have with my students often is I want them to work on Alex Wilson because I think it's classic material.

[6:38] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[6:39] Donny Repsher: And they will say, well, you know, that's that would be misappropriating, and people would be mad at me because I'm like, you're in school, you're paying a lot of money.

[6:45] Donny Repsher: This is some of the finest language in the world.

[6:48] Donny Repsher: You should want to sink your teeth into this, and there's still total resistance.

[6:54] Donny Repsher: And I'm like, instead of you making a choice to do something that you think is gonna avoid an uncomfortable situation, why don't you try to engage with the person who is challenging your ability to do this supposedly racist thing and say, what is it about it?

[7:09] Donny Repsher: Because what really is needed is for people to go deeper, and you gotta go through discomfort to get deep.

[7:15] Donny Repsher: I mean, I personally risk all the time asking people what their ancestry is.

[7:20] Donny Repsher: I try to frame it not like asking you where'd you come from, because you could be from America, but what's your ancestry?

[7:25] Donny Repsher: Because I'm curious, and I'm willing to shut step my foot down my throat for the sake of having a deeper real connection with somebody because if I've already messed up and you know insulted them, they get to call me on it, and I'm already in a vulnerable place.

[7:41] Donny Repsher: And so I can be open. It's something I consciously do.

[7:44] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[7:45] Donny Repsher: Your point about the way that we sort of avoid these conversations.

[7:52] Donny Repsher: I see it also in the way that we in the casting decisions that we are making about who how we're representing our stories on stage.

[8:02] Donny Repsher: And I think what I've noticed is that people just don't want to make a mistake, you know.

[8:08] Donny Repsher: It's not, it's less about having a vision for a particular show, and it is more about how do we not step in it, you know?

[8:18] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[8:18] Donny Repsher: It's about avoiding messing up, avoiding looking stupid, avoiding being ashamed.

[8:23] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[8:24] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[8:24] Donny Repsher: And you know, like the we are the arts, we are the artists, and we have to we have to be the tastemakers.

[8:34] Donny Repsher: Somebody has to be a tastemaker.

[8:36] Donny Repsher: Somebody has to somebody have to be a tastemaker.

[8:38] Donny Repsher: I we I don't know what else we're doing in our artistry, if we are not giving something for people to look at.

[8:48] Donny Repsher: I if we don't have a vision for the art that we are creating, I'm not sure what it is that we're doing, other than you know, engaging in a capitalist structure to make money in the arts.

[9:01] Tonya Pinkins: Well, that's one thing you're doing, but you're also preserving your culture as the standard culture and making sure it's going to continue on as the normalized culture.

[9:11] Donny Repsher: Maybe it's about sustaining a legacy.

[9:13] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[9:14] Donny Repsher: As opposed to disrupting your legacy.

[9:16] Tonya Pinkins: But the problem is the culture's changing.

[9:18] Donny Repsher: And so how how adaptive are we to staying sort of on the front lines of how the culture is changing?

[9:27] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I think of that with West Side Story.

[9:29] Tonya Pinkins: And I, you know, I love West Side Story and the fact that Ivan van Hove is to me acknowledging the fact that we are a screen culture.

[9:37] Tonya Pinkins: We're a screen culture.

[9:39] Donny Repsher: It's true.

[9:39] Tonya Pinkins: And so he is merging screens and live theater because that is the future.

[9:45] Tonya Pinkins: And if you want to get younger people in the room, because the people who've traditionally, you know, kept Broadway afloat, you gotta you gotta recognize the screen culture.

[9:53] Donny Repsher: It's true.

[9:54] Donny Repsher: And I was I heard about there were people who were complaining, they got to their seats and watched the first act, and at intermission, they went, or there is there an intermission?

[10:06] Tonya Pinkins: No, no intermission.

[10:07] Donny Repsher: At some point, they approached the box office staff and they were like, I can't see everything that's happening on stage.

[10:13] Donny Repsher: You should have told me this was partial view, I shouldn't be paying a full price ticket.

[10:17] Tonya Pinkins: And you know, the conversation is like, no, you are you're seeing exactly what you're supposed to see.

[10:23] Donny Repsher: But it but you're right.

[10:24] Donny Repsher: I think the we are, yeah, the experience is on the stage and the experience is in the room, and we are commenting on a culture that is changing.

[10:35] Tonya Pinkins: So yeah, I look forward to seeing it.

[10:37] Tonya Pinkins: I haven't seen it yet.

[10:38] Tonya Pinkins: My husband has seen it and he loves it.

[10:40] Donny Repsher: I loved it.

[10:40] Donny Repsher: I've seen it twice in spontaneous standing ovation every time.

[10:44] Tonya Pinkins: It's um that's so cool.

[10:46] Donny Repsher: But it's it's definitely not the West Side Story of Natalie Wood that I certainly grew up on.

[10:52] Tonya Pinkins: It's not that.

[10:53] Donny Repsher: And I think that what is exciting to me about that production is that I think as a European, he's making a comment on American racism in that he's taken it instead of it's you know, white people and brown people, he's saying it's Americans and immigrants and letting Puerto Ricans be an immigrant, you know, as if that's not America and the actors all look just alike.

[11:14] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, you know, they look alike, so it's just people who look just like the same people attacking each other, and that is what I love about that production.

[11:22] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[11:23] Donny Repsher: And you know, and it's causing a lot of controversy too.

[11:27] Tonya Pinkins: But to your earlier point, I think we have to, I think we have to engage in the discomfort of what this play is bringing about.

[11:35] Tonya Pinkins: And there is no one answer to how to have an experience at West Side Story.

[11:40] Tonya Pinkins: And I think people want one way to think about this, and there isn't, because a lot of people are having a really profound experience in that theater.

[11:49] Donny Repsher: Um, but we should also be taking to task the people in power who are making decisions that are making people feel excluded from that theatrical experience.

[12:00] Donny Repsher: And I think it's all part of the same conversation, but to your point, I think we should be moving towards the discomfort of that conversation so that we can actually have real conversations about it, as opposed to saying, well, I guess I don't like it because they cast this problematic person.

[12:18] Tonya Pinkins: This problematic person.

[12:19] Donny Repsher: I guess I know what you're talking about, but we'll just be discreet about what that is.

[12:22] Tonya Pinkins: All right, how old are you?

[12:24] Donny Repsher: Uh I just turned 30 last week.

[12:26] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, you're not a Gen Z, are you?

[12:27] Donny Repsher: No.

[12:28] Tonya Pinkins: What are Gen Zs?

[12:30] Donny Repsher: I don't know where the cutoff is.

[12:32] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, Alan's gonna find out for us where the Gen Z, but you're not a Gen Z.

[12:35] Donny Repsher: No.

[12:35] Tonya Pinkins: So I got three questions for you.

[12:37] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[12:38] Tonya Pinkins: Gen Z is a group of kids, teens and young adults, roughly between the ages of seven and twenty-two.

[12:43] Donny Repsher: Oh, okay.

[12:43] Donny Repsher: So I got a couple of Gen Zs of my children are Gen Z.

[12:47] Tonya Pinkins: Um here's three questions.

[12:49] Donny Repsher: Yeah.

[12:51] Donny Repsher: Who are you?

[12:53] Donny Repsher: What is needed and how do you serve?

[12:59] Donny Repsher: Who are you?

[13:02] Donny Repsher: My name is Donny Repsher.

[13:05] Donny Repsher: The I guess the American way to answer that question is to respond with what I do.

[13:11] Donny Repsher: I am a professional fundraiser.

[13:17] Donny Repsher: I work in the arts.

[13:18] Donny Repsher: I work specifically in theater.

[13:21] Donny Repsher: Um I I am an uh I fundraise with individuals um as opposed to with foundations, and and so I um I I have a particular um uh responsibility uh as an ambassador on behalf of the the arts institutions I work for um to to frame what it is that is valuable about this work and I really enjoy being in that position to have conversations about this is why this work is meaningful and to meet people at um at that same um intersection of uh to to hear people uh share why why this work is meaningful to them because you know, I work so I work at New York City Center and we revive, we have a the our most popular musical theater program is called Encores, and we revive golden age musicals.

[14:12] Donny Repsher: Um, any musical that we've presented, at least while I've been working there, um, is the first time I'm I'm seeing the show, and it's the first time that I'm I'm really ever knowing anything about it. Um, and so it's it's it's difficult sometimes to um be the people that I'm meeting have a profound experience because they they were around when the show originated. Um so I am I'm doing a lot of listening in in this current role and and framing why the artists are coming together to to revive this piece at this time. Um, and the answer is always because you know first and foremost, because there is this fabulous um Encores Orchestra playing the music like um you would never hear it otherwise because it is commercially unviable.

[15:01] Donny Repsher: What's needed? What is needed? My mind is spinning because I think as it pertains to our industry, um I think I think a through line, at least for this conversation, is that I think what is needed is to be more engaged in the things that make us uncomfortable because what the because what we're doing is the the our the the shells between the the identity that we've constructed and the the rest of the world are starting to rattle. And and I think once once we start sort of piece by piece taking these shells away and and engaging in what it it is that is making us uncomfortable suddenly we have access to the rest of the world um and I think that's how um cultures move forward and that's how we expand as human beings agreed how do you serve I think I'm still figuring that out I I think you know so I've I've life lasts a long time God willing and I've um I've served in a number of capacities I I got an acting degree in college um I moved to New York City because I knew that um live theater is where I I wanted to make a living I I started a um a development career five years ago um and I'm very grateful for the experience that I've had and um the the end of my my master's work was to to write something that I um I feel very proud of and I feel like um is tapping into something that I would also love to explore about how to communicate in this way um and how to um to put um put ideas uh of mine and a perspective of mine um into the community in a in a new way and so I I'm I'm still I I don't quite know the answer to that question.

[17:23] Donny Repsher: Okay but it is a it is about sort of moving forward um yeah. That's what I got. So listening to that, a question that came up for me, you said you raise money from individuals. So just, you know, what do you think? If I just not Tanya Pinkins Tony Award winner, you know, my brown being has to call talk to these individuals. Are you in person or are you on the phone?

[17:48] Donny Repsher: Um it's it's both. Um So my brown body, are they gonna give me money like they're gonna give you money? Um are you uh in this situation, are you the artist in the show? No, I'm you are your job, but I'm brown and I'm a woman.

[18:06] Donny Repsher: Yeah, I don't know. I I don't I don't know. Um I do a lot of my job is about making people feel comfortable. Um and uh it's uh it's it's been an interesting moment at City Center because we are undergoing a leadership change. Um Lear Debassanay is is taking over for Jack Vertel um in the Encourse program and and sh and Lear is asking a lot of critical questions about what it means to present these musicals uh today that um you know that Encore's originated as a concert series, and um the the level of production is increasing in such a way that we are basically presenting um um full productions and and therefore have to stand behind full productions of of musicals that that don't have the language that we have today.

[18:57] Donny Repsher: Um and yet people there are people who are our uh largest supporters um who want to experience them the way that they did however many years ago. Right. They want a nostalgic experience. That's what they're paying for. Yeah. And and so it's been it we've we've had a lot of conversations about what it means to ask critical questions in this way. And a lot of the the responses I'm hearing are why do you like the world is changing, but musical theater shouldn't have to. And that's a that's a hard thing to, you know, to that's a hard space to enter in at like 10 a.m. on a Monday morning when people are, you know, you're calling someone to renew their encourse subscription.

[19:41] Donny Repsher: Um, but it but the the most concise way that I've been able to present this is that the all we are trying to do is make people who otherwise felt excluded from a piece of theater feel more it we're inviting them into the room. Um but the the the thing that you love about this the the score the the score is the center of the theatrical experience at least we're creating um at City Center. That is the thing that you can come in and uh get to relive. Um yeah, but like Oklahoma, there was no black people. Why do I have to go see Oklahoma with black people?

[20:17] Donny Repsher: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, yes to all of it. Well, come on, convince me to renew. No, it but I I don't want to make light of it because it takes a lot of work and it takes I I want to know how you do it. Well, it's hard to it's hard to um be hypothetical about Oklahoma because I've only seen it once, and I've never seen it at all, but I mean I know it's got black people in it. Yeah, uh but the the first experience I had was actually this this production um when I saw it at St. Anne's. Um, and it threw me for a loop, honestly, because I um I was having to, I I feel like I was having to watch both versions of the show. I was having to watch um the Oklahoma as it's um historically been presented, and then I got to see sort of the all of the the um of Daniel Fish's sort of in interpretive elements to this piece.

[21:05] Donny Repsher: And so um I uh all that to say hypothetically, I don't I I don't know how to engage uh about Oklahoma specifically, but but here I'm gonna say something specifically. There's just never there's very few places in America where there weren't some other people of color, Asian people, Mexican people. So I mean, isn't it arguable to say that well, when they made that show and they didn't have any other people in it, that was a fake world.

[21:28] Donny Repsher: Yeah, right. The world actually of that play didn't exist, but you know, like Woody Allen's New York doesn't have any people of color in it for the most part. That New York doesn't really maybe his maybe it does for him. Maybe he gets to isolate himself. But is that an argument that would work, or they'd be like, nah, they don't care about that. Right. They just want their memory. Yeah, the responsibility we have as theater makers is that we don't um the movies live in the we are seeing what they made when they made it, um, and that is the that the artifact that persists um indefinitely.

[22:00] Donny Repsher: But when when we're um as theater makers, we are creating something that an audience will come in with um their ears are set to 2020, their ears are not set, and their eyeballs are not set to in the in the time in which it was written. And so we we have a responsibility to to meet our audiences at them and ask questions like this. We uh we if if a if a piece uh was not written with any people of color and um and we choose to present it, I think we have to ask are are we staying true to that, or do we have an opportunity um to to think at a higher plane and say, how do we tell the story for what it means um for how it could resonate in in 2020 in the in the New York City that we know?

[22:49] Donny Repsher: So here's the tough question. Let's go. You know, I feel like there's a a sort of ease that can happen to take a show and put it in a uh lens where people are homosexual. We're about to see it in company. Yeah. But I think that that's because the people with money and power tend to be white male homosexuals who could either be out or be in, but they're in positions of power so that they can say yes to that, and they could say yes and still stay in the closet.

[23:17] Donny Repsher: Yeah. But the point to me is that if people who are Asian or Native American or Mexican or what other South Asian uh don't get to be in those positions of power, they can't push through art that reflects other cultures that they're aware of or even a part of. That's true. You might have to lose your job. What's the question? Somebody might have to take your job. What's the question? Somebody might have to take your job, but you're saying I might not be able to get the money like you can get the money because I can't make people comfortable. I see.

[23:49] Donny Repsher: Someone someone might have to take my job as um as a fundraiser or as um uh uh someone making artistic decisions. Yeah, it's making artistic decisions. Somebody else might have to take your job. It's true. Listen, I think I think we are long overdue for a great reckoning. Um I I am fully on board. But does that mean that the all the money's gonna collapse? Because we're gonna like, well, if the theater isn't gonna look like what I remember or what I want to see, I'm not giving you my money. So there's not gonna be any theater.

[24:17] Donny Repsher: I say how exciting. I yes. Let's uh a friend of mine uh we we joke, it's like uh burn it down, start all over, you know. That I think um yeah, I think w the we've got a lot of work to do, and we could either um fix our institutions from the inside, um, and it you know, if if history is any precedent, it's it's going to take a very long time. Um, but yeah, uh what does that look like to start again? I mean, you know, I I I don't foresee that happening, but um, but I'm interested in having that conversation because I think it I think it touches on the truth of what it is that we're up against.

[24:58] Donny Repsher: And what is your best hope before we burn it down? Um I don't know. I I think I think we we start listening to the geniuses that are around us. You know, the the people who are pointing towards change that we don't yet have a framework for. Um, I think I think we we start listening to them. And historically, geniuses don't get listened to till after we've killed them. That's true. So burn it down. Burn it down. Damn, that Galileo was right. Yeah, that Copernicus was right.

[25:31] Tonya Pinkins: Donnie, thank you so much.

[25:34] Donny Repsher: Yeah, thank you for having this conversation with me.

[25:36] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, thank you. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and you can't say that.

[25:43] Tonya Pinkins: How come you don't say no and you mean no?

[25:49] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and you can't say that as part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[25:59] Tonya Pinkins: Produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derek Gunther, with music by Kat Dale. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream.

[26:15] Tonya Pinkins: Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins. And to learn more, visit BPN dot F M forward slash Y C S T.

[26:33] Tonya Pinkins: Stay safe.