This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, this is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to You Can't SAY THAT, my podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:12] Tonya Pinkins: We gotta say what news for you.

[0:16] Tonya Pinkins: Can't tell us real.

[0:25] Tonya Pinkins: I am so excited for my guest today.

[0:28] Tonya Pinkins: She was voted one of 25 women who are shaping the world by Essence Magazine.

[0:34] Tonya Pinkins: She received the Trailblazer Award from Reel Sisters Film Festival and a proclamation from the city of New York for her work.

[0:42] Tonya Pinkins: And she serves as a director of communications at Harlem Communications for Community Improvement.

[0:48] Tonya Pinkins: She lives and works in Harlem with her husband and partner, Gregory, and their son.

[0:52] Tonya Pinkins: And she is the founder and she runs Image Nation, which is a nonprofit whose mission is to help progressive filmmakers build a livelihood off their craft, make sure their audience is there to meet and support their work, and to help black audiences deconstruct what they've seen and integrate it in their lives.

[1:14] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome my guest today, Moikgantsi Kgama.

[1:17] Tonya Pinkins: Did I pronounce that right?

[1:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: You almost.

[1:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Moikgantsi Kgama.

[1:22] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, so the good.

[1:23] Tonya Pinkins: I don't have to put that sound in there.

[1:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: No, not a cansi gama.

[1:27] Moikgantsi Kgama: In English, the "g" is silent.

[1:29] Tonya Pinkins: Gotcha.

[1:30] Tonya Pinkins: And in Sotswana, it's a "k."

[1:32] Moikgantsi Kgama: Moikgantsi Kgama.

[1:33] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[1:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: Moikgantsi Kgama.

[1:35] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[1:37] Tonya Pinkins: But you know, we're gonna leave it at Khan.

[1:39] Tonya Pinkins: So it's total too, so it's gotta have a sound.

[1:40] Moikgantsi Kgama: Mmuikantsi, yeah, I might be doing that wrong.

[1:45] Tonya Pinkins: And I have to say my father would be like, what are you doing?

[1:48] Tonya Pinkins: I have to say, you are a genuine African American, because I don't think of myself as an African American.

[1:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm black because your father is South African.

[1:55] Moikgantsi Kgama: And your mother's American.

[1:56] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[1:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: You're an African American, for real.

[1:58] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, yes, yes.

[1:59] Moikgantsi Kgama: But he's black too.

[1:59] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, black is global.

[2:01] Tonya Pinkins: Black is global.

[2:02] Tonya Pinkins: But you know, I had just like I went to Senegal and the Gambia looking for myself, and people over there who had this melanation were like half white.

[2:09] Tonya Pinkins: So I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not really African, you know.

[2:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, no, I mean, my father's about your color.

[2:14] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[2:15] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, maybe a little lighter.

[2:16] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, but South Africa.

[2:17] Tonya Pinkins: We know what was going on there.

[2:18] Moikgantsi Kgama: But also, like the Khoisan, those people are just lighter people.

[2:21] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[2:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah.

[2:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: So, you know, it's different complexions throughout the continent.

[2:24] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[2:24] Tonya Pinkins: Definitely.

[2:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: As I have learned that the greatest genetic diversity on the planet is between two Yoruba people, that they have the greatest genetic diversity and that they could create all the different kinds of people that exist in the world.

[2:38] Tonya Pinkins: Makes sense.

[2:38] Tonya Pinkins: Makes sense.

[2:39] Moikgantsi Kgama: Because I know a sister who is, I think she's Yoruba and she's got light skin and freckles and the red hair.

[2:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, and then you've got people in the same area who are very dark.

[2:48] Tonya Pinkins: So makes sense.

[2:50] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[2:51] Tonya Pinkins: So, you know, let's talk.

[2:53] Tonya Pinkins: I heard that you love Black Panther, so you know I want to talk Black Panther.

[2:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: What is so old now?

[3:00] Tonya Pinkins: But you know what? I watched it in a while.

[3:02] Tonya Pinkins: We could do Black Panther, we could also do Watchmen because to me they both have the same problems.

[3:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh.

[3:07] Tonya Pinkins: Now, let me just say this.

[3:09] Tonya Pinkins: I really liked Watchmen.

[3:10] Tonya Pinkins: I want to, I am so proud of the Black people and the wonderful work they've done.

[3:15] Tonya Pinkins: So I am not in any way criticizing the beautiful work, the beautiful artistry, the talent of the people.

[3:21] Tonya Pinkins: My beef with both of those pieces was what I feel is the dominant culture has finally decided that capitalism needs more money.

[3:35] Tonya Pinkins: And before they were not interested in making money off of elevating our images of ourselves.

[3:41] Tonya Pinkins: And now that capitalism is running out of places to make money, they're like, well, I guess we're gonna have to make money off of giving them some good images too.

[3:49] Tonya Pinkins: But they are subtly sneaking in propaganda, a lot of propaganda as they do it.

[3:55] Tonya Pinkins: And so that is my beef with them.

[3:59] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, that they're gonna be.

[4:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: So what, Killmonger was your problem with Black Panther?

[4:02] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, I loved Killmonger.

[4:03] Moikgantsi Kgama: No, no, but it was the hero.

[4:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: But him, but right, him being positioned as the anti-hero. Was that your problem?

[4:07] Tonya Pinkins: Oh no, I had so many more problems.

[4:10] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, oh, okay.

[4:10] Tonya Pinkins: So many more problems.

[4:12] Tonya Pinkins: I had problems with the fact that kids are not getting history anymore.

[4:16] Tonya Pinkins: And you place Black Panther in Oakland where the Black Panthers were, and then you have them saving a CIA person, like have we forgotten COINTELPRO, and we have a CIA operative killing.

[4:29] Moikgantsi Kgama: I agree.

[4:30] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, I agree.

[4:32] Moikgantsi Kgama: I don't have a problem with that CIA.

[4:33] Tonya Pinkins: I was just like, what really? You spending effort on this Joker?

[4:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, exactly.

[4:37] Tonya Pinkins: So that's the problem with that, but I feel like young kids don't understand that this is propaganda.

[4:41] Tonya Pinkins: That's like reframing the CIA relationship to the Black Panther.

[4:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: Absolutely.

[4:45] Tonya Pinkins: And they are not getting that because they don't know that.

[4:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: So that's what I'm talking about, this subtle propaganda.

[4:49] Tonya Pinkins: And I went to see it in the movie theater three times, and I cried every time I saw black people killing black people about giving some more black people the power to rise up.

[4:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[4:57] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[4:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: But you know, I guess there's just a couple of ways to look at it though.

[5:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, on the CIA tip, I completely agree with you, right?

[5:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: And in terms of that reframing, I agree too.

[5:07] Moikgantsi Kgama: But you know, to me, this is a corporate entity.

[5:10] Moikgantsi Kgama: It was made by Marvel, and that part doesn't surprise me.

[5:14] Moikgantsi Kgama: I feel like when a film like that is made, it's kind of up to us to use it as a point of departure and have real conversations because we shouldn't be getting our history from movies anyway.

[5:22] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[5:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, well, yeah, but I mean, you know, you can't.

[5:28] Moikgantsi Kgama: It's up to us as a community to say, wow, that was a great film.

[5:31] Moikgantsi Kgama: So now that you're interested, let's have another conversation about it.

[5:34] Tonya Pinkins: And we are right now.

[5:35] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, exactly.

[5:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so to me, that's how I take all films, right?

[5:39] Moikgantsi Kgama: Because I had issues with Harriet, even though I loved it, right?

[5:41] Tonya Pinkins: So, um what were your issues with Harriet?

[5:43] Moikgantsi Kgama: Because I did love it too.

[5:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, you could have five mil films about Harriet's life, her life's just you can.

[5:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: But honestly, I, you know, I don't want to offend the Christian folk, but this framing of her as just being led by this spiritual visions to me was ridiculous.

[5:50] Tonya Pinkins: Well, you know, Ta-Nehisi also has that in his book, The Water Dancer as well. That's sort of this vision thing.

[6:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, but his book's fiction, right?

[6:07] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[6:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah.

[6:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: But you know what I'm saying?

[6:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: But that's not Harriet Tubman's story, though.

[6:12] Tonya Pinkins: And then in terms of her relationship to agriculture, what she knew about the land, how she was able to make it was because she had some intrinsic knowledge, not simply because she woke up and had a vision.

[6:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I'm like, if she didn't have knowledge, she didn't have some skills she developed along the way, she wouldn't have almost become the general she was.

[6:30] Moikgantsi Kgama: She wouldn't have participated in the wars the way she did.

[6:33] Moikgantsi Kgama: So I just kind of felt like they minimized her by making it just she woke up and God told her to go.

[6:39] Tonya Pinkins: You know, I thought there was a lot more to her and to they made her a magical Negress.

[6:43] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, yeah.

[6:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I don't think you had to do that.

[6:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: And then from my, you know, I'm not a historian, you know, I forget a lot of stuff, but from what I recall, her father had taught her so much about agriculture and so much about the land that she was able to use that in her journey.

[6:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: And they didn't give him that credit either.

[6:59] Tonya Pinkins: So those are my little issues with that movie.

[7:01] Tonya Pinkins: But other than that, you know, I was happy to see, you know, her story told on screen.

[7:01] Tonya Pinkins: I was happy to see another generation be exposed to it because every generation seems to be starting from scratch.

[7:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes.

[7:13] Tonya Pinkins: You know, but um, yeah, I forgot what we're saying about Black Panther.

[7:17] Moikgantsi Kgama: You got me on Harriet.

[7:18] Tonya Pinkins: Well, because there's all of them, and then there's Watchmen, like Watchmen.

[7:20] Tonya Pinkins: I got through about 20 minutes of the pilot, and I was done.

[7:24] Tonya Pinkins: I was like, first of all, I'm looking at the first on the screen.

[7:26] Tonya Pinkins: I see black people who are beautifully dressed just being slaughtered by white people, and there's no context, and it just looks like this is normal.

[7:33] Tonya Pinkins: Like white people just killing black people and one little black person running and hiding.

[7:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: So I'm like, I'm upset with that.

[7:38] Tonya Pinkins: And then when I get to the black woman got white children, I was done.

[7:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: Dun dun dun.

[7:44] Tonya Pinkins: I did not get any further.

[7:46] Tonya Pinkins: And then I happened to be sharing this with someone who had been a writer in the room who said that their experience as a writer in the room is that there were all these writers of color, and there were two white people, and that the white people just had the say.

[8:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: That no matter how many times they argued for the fact that black people know other black people.

[8:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Black people have friends, that the white people be like, I don't understand that, that doesn't make sense.

[8:10] Tonya Pinkins: And that they, you know, they fought them about that.

[8:14] Moikgantsi Kgama: And they were able to dominate even though they were the minority in the room.

[8:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: And this particular writer, whose name I shall not ever speak, got themselves out of that room because they said they are done with white people's intentions, they want their will, because they said that that was just the creator was a black writer.

[8:33] Tonya Pinkins: No, it's no, the original writer of the graphic novel is some white genius guy, Alan, I can't think of his last name.

[8:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, and the original piece is about a white supremacist.

[8:44] Tonya Pinkins: So it was a white showrunner who decided he wanted to set it in a black world and highlight the Oklahoma massacre.

[8:53] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I am so happy that Oklahoma is, you know, gonna put that in their schools now, and if they want to give credit to this TV series for that, that's fine.

[9:03] Tonya Pinkins: But still, there was just too much propaganda in that one for me.

[9:06] Tonya Pinkins: I didn't get beyond the vibe.

[9:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: I really like that series.

[9:10] Moikgantsi Kgama: I watched the whole thing.

[9:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: I think I was just really just enamored with how creative it was with the fact that they were telling that story in such a creative way.

[9:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: To me, it was an opportunity.

[9:21] Tonya Pinkins: But that's my repression most thing.

[9:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: And like for me, I was like, Oklahoma, we didn't have no superheroes coming to save us in Oklahoma.

[9:27] Tonya Pinkins: So don't be reframing my history with some superhero story.

[9:31] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, yeah, there was no superheroes there either saving them, I mean they all died.

[9:37] Tonya Pinkins: But I mean, to me, it was a really interesting way to get the history out there because these are.

[9:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: These are stories that I feel like only people of color know.

[9:44] Tonya Pinkins: And I'm like, how can you live in the United States and have never heard these stories?

[9:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: But most white people don't know that, you know, that these things happen, that whole towns were decimated simply because they were black and thriving.

[9:55] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[9:56] Tonya Pinkins: So to me, I was all for it.

[9:58] Tonya Pinkins: You know, there were some departures that were a little wonky.

[10:00] Tonya Pinkins: I was like, what's happening here?

[10:02] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[10:02] Tonya Pinkins: And then I was like, all right, the grandpa's a gay superhero too. All right, cool.

[10:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Cool.

[10:07] Tonya Pinkins: But it was like a lot of really, you know, it was really was all kind of out there, but I like stuff that's out there.

[10:14] Moikgantsi Kgama: I like that it pushed the envelope.

[10:16] Tonya Pinkins: And you know, to me, maybe that gives space for someone to come along and do their version of it.

[10:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm with you on that.

[10:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: I support that.

[10:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I think it's important that we get to have a vigorous conversation about it because I think that that pushes the next level of creativity.

[10:31] Tonya Pinkins: That we don't have to go, oh, it's black, so I gotta support it a hundred percent.

[10:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, I support it.

[10:35] Moikgantsi Kgama: I want us to make way more stuff.

[10:37] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[10:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: But I also want to be able to say where there's room for us to show some other things.

[10:41] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[10:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: And we didn't really make that.

[10:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: Some white people made that.

[10:43] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, see, well, you know, well, yeah.

[10:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: But I loved it.

[10:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: I love the approach, and I love that they bothered to do it.

[10:51] Tonya Pinkins: Hey, you know, I don't know why the black writers weren't listened to, though.

[10:54] Moikgantsi Kgama: That's a little disconcerting.

[10:56] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, yeah, it is.

[10:57] Tonya Pinkins: It is like why have us there and why have us there en masse as the majority in the room if you're not gonna listen.

[11:02] Moikgantsi Kgama: I think they have us there to co-sign on their stupidity, right?

[11:05] Tonya Pinkins: Like there was black people in the room.

[11:07] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, black people were there, and it's like, okay, well, so the black people are okay with the white woman having no having white children and no black friends.

[11:14] Tonya Pinkins: That's what they get to say, right?

[11:15] Moikgantsi Kgama: There were 12 of them in the room, right?

[11:17] Tonya Pinkins: You know, so they get to say that even though they didn't have a say.

[11:20] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, yeah, and then she wasn't even raised in the US, so she was kind of like just divorced from her community in general.

[11:25] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, it's true, but that always happens.

[11:27] Moikgantsi Kgama: They seem to always just stick us there, like we just pop up out of the ground, like where's our community?

[11:32] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that seems to be a consistent thing when we're not telling our stories.

[11:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: That's why it's important for us to tell our own stories.

[11:37] Tonya Pinkins: And isn't it exciting that we got so many of us telling our stories right now?

[11:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, it is.

[11:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, like Ava DuVernay is giving a lot of women opportunities, Issa Rae is giving a lot of women opportunities, and Lena is just ushering a whole bunch of filmmakers through.

[11:52] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, yes.

[11:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm really excited.

[11:53] Moikgantsi Kgama: I haven't seen Rhada's film yet.

[11:54] Tonya Pinkins: Um, nor have I, but um, you know, Rhada was part of Image Nation for many years, so to see her just rising like that is really, really exciting.

[12:02] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, I can't wait to see the film.

[12:04] Tonya Pinkins: So yeah, will it be screening at Image Nation?

[12:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: I don't know.

[12:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, she had come to our first Apollo event because she wanted to, she wanted to consider showing it there.

[12:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: But she said that with her Netflix deal, she can only do like one or two screenings in New York.

[12:20] Tonya Pinkins: So I don't think I'm gonna get one of those screenings.

[12:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, let's be pushing for you to get that screening at the Apollo.

[12:26] Tonya Pinkins: Well, we already pushed for it.

[12:28] Tonya Pinkins: And that's not gonna happen.

[12:29] Moikgantsi Kgama: But what I've talked to her about is doing like a clips and conversation.

[12:32] Tonya Pinkins: Clips and conversations?

[12:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, okay.

[12:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: Something like that.

[12:35] Moikgantsi Kgama: So we'll see.

[12:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, I mean, well, you know, it gets very political.

[12:38] Moikgantsi Kgama: Once a film is made, you know, there's like the distributors that have first say, then it's like, what festival are you going to?

[12:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: Which one can you not apply to?

[12:46] Moikgantsi Kgama: Are you premiering?

[12:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: Is it a second screening?

[12:49] Moikgantsi Kgama: It just gets so political that an entity like me is like, hey, well, my film, Red Pill.

[12:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: I, you know, I was having that conversation with the producer today about the festivals and this.

[13:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm like, no, no, no.

[13:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: I made this movie for black people, and I swear I want to take it.

[13:03] Moikgantsi Kgama: And they're like, but the distributors might not say, no, no, no.

[13:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: I made this for black people, and I want to take it to my people in my community so they can be talking about it and the buzz can start there, and white can be like, what is this thing we don't know anything about?

[13:15] Tonya Pinkins: That is my intention of how I want to bring my film out there.

[13:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Good, good.

[13:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: And then we have festivals too.

[13:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: There are black festivals.

[13:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: And you know, maybe I will be in some of them, but my film is so much about politics right now and so much of getting out before the Democratic National Convention that I might not make some of the deadlines for some of the festivals.

[13:35] Tonya Pinkins: Is it done?

[13:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: It is in post-production.

[13:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: We are editing it, but it is um.

[13:37] Tonya Pinkins: You should definitely do Pan African.

[13:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Pan African just ended, so we can't make Pan African until next year.

[13:44] Tonya Pinkins: Right, right.

[13:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right, next year, but it'll have been out.

[13:47] Tonya Pinkins: So you want to be out before the 2020 election?

[13:49] Moikgantsi Kgama: Uh oh, definitely.

[13:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: I want to be out before the Democratic National Convention in July.

[13:56] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay.

[13:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: Because this is a story about what may happen if we don't do something.

[14:03] Moikgantsi Kgama: This is the scare up the scare up the action.

[14:05] Moikgantsi Kgama: Like voting, I don't even think is gonna be enough.

[14:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: So this is my, you know, when I was clear that this current president was going to be president, people treated me with contempt.

[14:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: They treated me like I had two heads that I could ever think that this current president would be this current president.

[14:22] Tonya Pinkins: Oh.

[14:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna even tell people what I think now. I'm gonna just make a story about what I think. Well, I know when I woke up and he was president, I was just like, what? He went to sleep because I knew that was what that was gonna be. I went to sleep, and usually I'll stay up and I was like, Well, I'm tired, I'm gonna go to sleep. You know, I'm pretty sure, you know, he won't be president.

[14:42] Tonya Pinkins: Oh no, I was pretty sure he was gonna be president.

[14:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: And then my little son, who's uh nine now, he woke up, he was like, How can that be? Sorry. He was like, but but Hillary Clinton's so much smarter than him. And I was like, I'm sorry, babe. That's how it went down. Well, you know, Scholastic Books has been polling high school students for the last 50 years of elections about who they predict will win, not who they would vote for.

[15:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: And uh high school students have accurately predicted every president. They predicted Trump.

[15:13] Tonya Pinkins: They did, and I don't even say that name, I call him 45 because I don't want to contribute to the brand.

[15:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes.

[15:19] Tonya Pinkins: I hear you.

[15:20] Moikgantsi Kgama: I think that's his brand now, too.

[15:22] Tonya Pinkins: 45.

[15:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, we'll just call him dump.

[15:26] Tonya Pinkins: Frump, stump.

[15:29] Moikgantsi Kgama: Anyway. Well, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and I think that he is the master of publicity. I think he knows that whenever he says something that we think of as stupid, he's gonna he's gonna own the news cycle. And I think he works that, and I think we forget how much we are contributing to the brand. They say he is the most famous person since the history of fame. And America is the inventor of fame. And so I don't think there's anyone that can beat him.

[15:55] Tonya Pinkins: Wow.

[15:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: I hope that you're wrong.

[15:59] Tonya Pinkins: You know, I hope that you're wrong. And I and you know, I mean, this whole umpeachment process was really frustrating.

[16:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Bread and circuses.

[16:07] Tonya Pinkins: And I was like, so what was what was the point of that?

[16:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: Bread and circuses. You know, I said I was thinking, I hope it was to try and galvanize Democrats, but I don't really see a strategy for that. You know, and then the folks that are running, I'm like, enter when Bloomberg entered, my head started to just spin. I'm like, what is happening here? So I, you know, I I really hope that he won't win again. You know, I hope that people will at least come out and vote.

[16:30] Tonya Pinkins: Because the thing is, well, you know, hope got hope got Obama in.

[16:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: But but I mean, the thing is we have to come out and vote. You know, have we done that?

[16:38] Tonya Pinkins: We're gonna have to do more than vote.

[16:40] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay, what do we need to do?

[16:41] Tonya Pinkins: I you know what? I don't have an answer, but my movie poses what's gonna happen, even if if voting is all you do, my movie says that's not enough.

[16:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, you don't you don't believe that there are enough people who are who are enough democrats to actually overturn it?

[16:58] Tonya Pinkins: I I am absolutely sure that the majority of people in this come country um do not support the policies of our current president.

[17:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[17:08] Tonya Pinkins: I am I am 100% certain of that. I just think that doesn't have any meaning anymore.

[17:13] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[17:13] Tonya Pinkins: I think in the surveillance capitalism world, in this behavior modification world, in this hacking world, the our vote does not have the value that they'll steal it when we died for. We you know, we died to vote, and yes, it has a value, but we are we are as the technology giants say, they are nine times ahead of what we as regular people can do.

[17:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, that's depressing, Tanya.

[17:41] Tonya Pinkins: Thank you very much. You see, you see why I decided to just make a movie and try to make it entertaining and scary. Cause when I speak what I believe to be truth, you know, people don't want to hear it. But so I, you know, just come see Red Pill instead, and you can at least laugh and be scared uh while you hear my prediction for the future.

[18:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: So my next Apollo event is May 21st.

[18:04] Tonya Pinkins: Is it? You don't have anything for May 21st?

[18:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I have to have to like, I I submitted a film already, but we haven't finalized.

[18:10] Tonya Pinkins: Oh.

[18:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: So I'm supposed to have it done like now.

[18:13] Tonya Pinkins: When when do I uh we were talking about having mine be the fall though?

[18:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[18:17] Tonya Pinkins: Like September, like being the September.

[18:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, that's good. Cause so you're not ready yet anyway.

[18:21] Tonya Pinkins: So we don't talk about it.

[18:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: We're not ready yet. Um so that it's coming right into the election. So people realize they got to do a whole heap a lot more. And and I and I feel like the thing about my particular film is that um black people and white people are gonna experience it very differently.

[18:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: Like black people are gonna be like, mm-hmm, they're gonna know where it's going from the beginning, like, okay, let's watch this rollout. And white people are gonna be like, what? Oh, oh, oh, surprise, surprise, surprise.

[18:46] Tonya Pinkins: Like watching Get Out.

[18:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: That was so funny watching Get Out.

[18:48] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that was a comedy to me. From the minute she was smiling over the past trees, I was like, bitches evil.

[18:54] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, I thought it was great satire. But you know, we're talking to the screen, we're laughing, and the white folks are like,

[18:56] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly, tight. They're like, am I allowed to laugh? Am I allowed to emote? What's going on? What can I do? You know, like just enjoy the movie.

[19:10] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, that's that's how my movie is gonna be. It's gonna be like, what's okay?

[19:14] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to that.

[19:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: Good. Good, good, good.

[19:17] Tonya Pinkins: So um, talk to me about your mission and how, like, this is what I actually was thinking about. We know that black people are a viable audience. Um, that, you know, makeup, uh, entertainment. We made the the Fox Network, we made the CW. They use us, they bring us in to build up their brand, to get their investors in, and then they dump us.

[19:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, how can other people of color uh capitalize on our community?

[19:50] Tonya Pinkins: Because that's really what I want to do. I made my movie for my community. How do we capitalize on our community?

[19:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: Because we are enough of an audience.

[19:58] Tonya Pinkins: We are, we are.

[19:59] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, I guess my vision is um for Image Nation to develop a chain of arthouse cinemas that highlight our films, um, that highlight progressive films about even about world issues. You know, I would show Michael Moore film and Natanya Pinkins film.

[20:14] Tonya Pinkins: Um, but to show films that that really validate the human experience, and that um that also uh show black solidarity that's important to me as a pan-Africanist, and to create a vehicle where we can sustain our own films, where we can we can support them through cinema, we can support them through an online vehicle, where Netflix isn't the go-to for black films right now, because that's what it is.

[20:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: Or Amazon.

[20:38] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, yeah, or Amazon. True, true. And I'm not mad at either one of them, but I think that um we should be benefiting from our own vehicles and from our own content.

[20:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: So my vision is to is to create a company that that's able to do that. Um, you know, I'm in the midst right now of opening a cinema cafe, which is a a really challenging effort.

[20:56] Tonya Pinkins: We'll see how I go and how.

[20:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: It was easy, everybody would be doing it.

[20:59] Tonya Pinkins: So brava to you.

[21:01] Moikgantsi Kgama: Thank you, thank you, thank you. And so I'm learning as I go, you know.

[21:04] Tonya Pinkins: Um, you know, I'm learning how to raise more money.

[21:07] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, and need more folks. I need more money.

[21:10] Tonya Pinkins: And so, you know.

[21:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, let's talk about the raising more money.

[21:13] Tonya Pinkins: Let's talk about that. I mean, like, I'm trying, I've tried to do that in well. And one of the things that I was told, and I don't know if it's true, and maybe you can talk about it for you. This was more of a psycho-spiritual thing about raising money. And it was that when you are asking, you have to ask from the place of having. That you can't ask from a place of lack or limitation because the animal body of the other person experiences the animal body of you, and they don't want to contribute to that energy of lack.

[21:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: But if you're asking from a place of like, I got it, we're gonna do it. This is a wonderful thing. You want to jump on board, that that is an energetic spirit that magnetizes more people to want to jump on board.

[21:57] Tonya Pinkins: What's your thoughts on that?

[21:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, I I totally agree. Nobody wants to jump on a signal chip. That's just kind of how that goes.

[22:01] Tonya Pinkins: That's that's kind of how that goes.

[22:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: I totally agree with that. Um, but I also think um, you know, there are people who are visionaries and who are moved by the vision and the concept, and there are people who are numbers people. And I think we all we those two people need to get together if you have a large vision.

[22:19] Tonya Pinkins: I'm the visionary, that's who I've always been.

[22:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: And I've realized that uh, you know, even though I have the vision, maybe I wasn't asking for enough.

[22:28] Tonya Pinkins: Right?

[22:28] Moikgantsi Kgama: And that that's that's what I'm dealing with right now. Like I need more, and I need to ask for more.

[22:33] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[22:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes. And you know, I think that if you're a person who came from like an activist background or a grassroots background, that's a hard place to grow to. And so I'm I'm growing to there.

[22:44] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, you know, because I've also realized that my vision is not to have a mom and pop spot on Seventh Ave between 121st and 122nd. My vision is to have a chain of cinemas.

[22:55] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[22:56] Tonya Pinkins: And to have uh, you know, a global comp corporation.

[22:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: So this is going to be the Pan African ANC, and we're gonna be all over uh the continent of Africa because they don't have a lot of cinemas, right?

[22:58] Tonya Pinkins: Right, right?

[23:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right. So we're gonna come up with that, and it's gonna be all over the all over the world.

[23:10] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[23:10] Moikgantsi Kgama: More like the Pan-African Alamo Draft House.

[23:12] Tonya Pinkins: The Pan African Alamo Draft House, and we'll be selling chitlins and bean pies.

[23:17] Moikgantsi Kgama: Maybe no chitlins.

[23:19] Tonya Pinkins: Because I love me some chitlins.

[23:20] Moikgantsi Kgama: Do you love chitlins?

[23:21] Tonya Pinkins: Well, you're from Chicago, Chicago.

[23:23] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay, so you got to have some soul moves up in there.

[23:26] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[23:27] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, we ain't gonna have no chitlins.

[23:30] Tonya Pinkins: Um, but we are gonna have some soul food up there.

[23:32] Moikgantsi Kgama: And and you know, international soul food. The idea, because you know, um, we just royalty.

[23:36] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, right, right.

[23:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: We we just did a Black History Month celebration, um, our screening at the Apollo, and we showed this film Bacoso, which is about um Afro Beats music in Cuba. And I'm and you know, one of the things I said was that I'm showing this Cuban film by some Puerto Rican brothers, um, and Black History Month because Black history is global, right?

[23:57] Tonya Pinkins: So for me, um, solidarity, building solidarity through through entertainment, through food, through culture has always been important.

[24:03] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so that that will be reflected in in uh in my business.

[24:06] Tonya Pinkins: Do you know this? Uh there's a uh director, he is Chinese uh ancestral Balinese who uh his name is Ed Iskandar, and you know, I love Ed Escandar, and I believe he may have left the country to visit family and can't get back, but an award-winning artist who does theater as community, and so the way he creates theater events is sometimes they're like six-hour events and there's food and they break and the and the actors serve you, and then afterwards there's talk and cocktails, and he really does.

[24:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: Is are you thinking about uh film as that kind of thing where we come and it's a whole experience?

[24:41] Tonya Pinkins: We watch a movie, we eat some food, we talk after we have some music, we dance, we talk.

[24:46] Moikgantsi Kgama: I love that.

[24:47] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly.

[24:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: I don't know about the dancing, but exactly.

[24:50] Tonya Pinkins: Um, just because of the logistics of showing films, right?

[24:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right, right.

[24:53] Tonya Pinkins: But um, but yeah, I mean that and that's always been what we've done. Image Nation has always been a place where you can come see a film and you can then engage with the artists and talk about it and deconstruct what you saw and think about what it means to you.

[25:05] Moikgantsi Kgama: And maybe you'll meet some activists who are addressing the issues in the film and you can get involved.

[25:10] Tonya Pinkins: So it's always been about participating.

[25:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, um, our series at at the Apollo is called Image Nation's Cocktails and Cinema.

[25:12] Tonya Pinkins: Cocktails and cinema.

[25:18] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, okay.

[25:19] Tonya Pinkins: So you come there and you get a little cocktail, you get some munchies, you watch the there's a DJ, this is all at the beginning.

[25:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm sorry.

[25:26] Tonya Pinkins: Then you watch the film, and then there's a QA with the with the directors and with people from the film.

[25:31] Moikgantsi Kgama: So there's that opportunity to kind of engage on every level.

[25:35] Tonya Pinkins: And that that's what the experience will be in our physical spaces, and then we're connecting that to a digital component.

[25:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, where you know, if you're in South Africa and you can't, you know, and we've only got one venue up, we haven't built our venue in your city yet. Uh, you can go online and see the QA and see what's happening in the Soul Cinema in New York City. You can become a part of that global community of supporters.

[25:58] Tonya Pinkins: Now, I see that AMC is starting this um uh digital releasing of of features. Do you envision that that might be what Image Nation does, where you start actually releasing films in say the African market?

[26:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, you know, where it it's online.

[26:15] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[26:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes, yeah, yes.

[26:17] Tonya Pinkins: I mean, I know that there's a big piracy thing there, but I always feel like there's some people who can't afford your product, but they can be great word of mouth for you, and there's some people who only want what they can pay for, which is parasites proving to be true, it's doing well online and it's still selling at the box office.

[26:33] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think the the digital space, you have to be in that space. And um, that's a place for me to grow to as well, because I started out in the physical community space, which is why I started my business there. I'm starting my business where I'm comfortable, but you have to grow into the digital space to monetize, but also to build audience and and to continue to grow community unless you want to limit it to where you're at, and I don't want to do that.

[26:53] Tonya Pinkins: And what about this piracy issue?

[26:55] Moikgantsi Kgama: Like I always feel like you can't worry about piracy.

[26:58] Tonya Pinkins: I mean, I feel like that that's an old issue.

[27:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: How so?

[27:01] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I I think first of all, if you're streaming online, um, there's enough encryption where that's not as much a concern.

[27:07] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[27:07] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[27:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, and I feel like the industry has grown so fast and so far past those limitations that this is a new way that people are are are streaming and viewing film anyway.

[27:17] Moikgantsi Kgama: But you know, I could be streaming it on my house, and then I could put my little phone camera up and make a video.

[27:23] Tonya Pinkins: Well then you're not my customer.

[27:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, honestly, the person who wants to watch the third grade, you know, the copy of the copy of the copy and have someone's thumb in the in the frame was never your customer anyway.

[27:34] Tonya Pinkins: But you know, they might be your word of mouth.

[27:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: Those people who are watching that fourth grade version on their little tiny flip phone, they go talking about your movie.

[27:42] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly.

[27:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: That's some some advertisement.

[27:44] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly. That's why I think it's an old issue because it's like it's it's negligible to worry about that.

[27:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: I'm I'm with you on that.

[27:49] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[27:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: That those people are important.

[27:52] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, well, they're important, and also they're not a problem. So it's like, all right.

[27:55] Moikgantsi Kgama: Agreed.

[27:56] Tonya Pinkins: You know, there's always gonna be the person who wants it a higher quality experience.

[28:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[28:00] Tonya Pinkins: And that's who you're catering to, and the other folks, like you say, are helping to build bus.

[28:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: Correct.

[28:05] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, agreed.

[28:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Agreed.

[28:07] Tonya Pinkins: Don't say no when you mean no. This is Tonya Pinkins, and that was part one of my scintillating conversation with Wikansi Kama of Image Nation. Come back for part two.